2000 Condorde - Body (chassis) mounts
jaygreg
things were involved in a call back. Should have been from what a
local mechanic told me. I noticed the passenger side (rubber?) mount
is about half gone. The car is in good shape other other than that but
I would suspect the cost of repair will be pretty high ($800?) making
the replacement cost prohibitive since it will soon need struts and
tires.
A local vocational school is willing to tackle the project and I'm
considering letting them do it since they have the equipment and are
supervised. It looks to me like all that's involved is lifting the
car, loosening bolts for 4 or 6 rubber bushings (mounts), lowering the
car and permitting the body to rest on (something), replacing the
mounts, raising the car back up, torching the bolts and the task is
complete. Looks that way I said. I could use some comments here as to
the difficulty, idea of having a school do the work, cost of parts,
and anything else I should look for or have replaced at the same time.
I spoke with the teacher/supervisors and I'm bringing the car to him
for inspection in a few days. He said if the frame is rusted (which I
don't think it is but that other guy's comment I read here makes me
wonder), if it is... he wouldn't be able to do the job. What's the
chance he'll find this thing in such condition he can't simply replace
the bushings. Could Chrysler have made a car that's THAT disposable?
Bill Putney
I don't know of any "body mounts" on our cars. Are you talking about
the engine cradle bushings? Some of your comments sound like maybe
that's what you're talking about.
From my reading over the years on several LH car forums, it would seem
that the difficulties you might expect have everything to do with where
you live - i.e., is it in the rust belt or not, or somewhere in between.
You seem to already be aware that, worst case, it can be difficult and
may involve some torch work.
When you do your struts, don't use the OEM spring cushions. They become
worthless very quickly. Some guys here: www.lhforums.net arranged to
have some polyurethane ones made that are supposed to be excellent.
They also arranged for poly cradle bushings too, but unfortunately they
are only made for 1st gen. LH cars.
--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
jaygreg
> have some polyurethane ones made that are supposed to be excellent.
> They also arranged for poly cradle bushings too, but unfortunately they
> are only made for 1st gen. LH cars.
>
> --
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> address with the letter 'x')
It must be cradle bushings I'm referring to, Bill. I looked that up in
the service manual and it looks like what I saw. When I stood under
the car in front of the transmission pan, if I looked over my shoulder
right or left, I'd see the side of a very squashed bushing. Figure 76
on page 2-40 of the 2000 Service Manual lists item one as the part.
Unless there's another one other than the mate to this one that looks
similar, it's got to be cradle bushings I'm taking about.
Yes; I live in the heart of the rust belt.But this is the only car
I've had (I'm in my 60's) where frame members became an issue. I've
never seen a car looks so good but make one so uncomfortable. My
friends are asking why I want to sell it. I tell them it's unreliable.
At 108,000 miles, two door actuators (fortunately I provided the
labor), an evaporator, brakes with rotors that keep warping (3rd set),
water pump (to be expected), and a computer module that prevented
shifting. I keep thinking the slight hesitation I feel shortly after
the car takes off (shift to 2nd I guess) is a sign of impending
trouble (though this might have been occurring all along and I've
simply become paranoid).
Anyway - back to the bushings. What I see from the side is half a
bushing gone and rust around the area. The integrity of the cradle
doesn't seem to be compromised but I'm not a good judge of that; no
frame of reference (no pun intended). What's you're take? Probability
of that auto class supervisor finding the area too rusty to risk what
has to be a relatively clean replacement in order for him to tackle
it?
Judging from the picture I referenced, would it be wise to replace any
other components; like the entire tension strut and lower control arm
assembly (or just the bushings)?
Rob
other LH cars. got one pair (1 upper, 1 lower) for my 96 LHS for about
$60.00
all 8 of them was over 400.00 from Chrysler earlier this year but only due
to my car club discount. list price would have been around 520.00. they
don't sell them in pairs from Chrysler, they sell them separately so you'll
need 8 if you buy them that way. buying the Dorman's from Car Quest i would
have only needed 4 pair for around 250.00 with tax but they didnt sell them
when i did them originally.
here's what my old ones looked like.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/robs440/oldbushings.jpg
"jaygreg" <jayg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9cbf4d31-7128-4912...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
aarcuda69062
"Rob" <m...@home.orgg> wrote:
> Dorman makes replacement bushings now for the LHS so i figure they will fit
> other LH cars. got one pair (1 upper, 1 lower) for my 96 LHS for about
> $60.00
The Dorman parts are only for the first generation LH cars.
aarcuda69062
<9cbf4d31-7128-4912...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
jaygreg <jayg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Anyway - back to the bushings. What I see from the side is half a
> bushing gone and rust around the area. The integrity of the cradle
> doesn't seem to be compromised but I'm not a good judge of that; no
> frame of reference (no pun intended). What's you're take? Probability
> of that auto class supervisor finding the area too rusty to risk what
> has to be a relatively clean replacement in order for him to tackle
> it?
The issue is going to be whether the bolts come loose/out without
breaking the nut loose inside the frame rail.
The nut inside the frame rail is spot welded to keep it from turning, if
the welds break, the frame rail will have to be cut open to make room
for some manner of securing the nut to allow full removal of the bolt.
IOWs, no way to know until they try.
There were/are similar problems with the lower control arm bushings
(vertical) bolts on the first generation neons, although strangely
enough, there is better accessibility to cut an access hole than there
is on the LH cars.
> Judging from the picture I referenced, would it be wise to replace any
> other components; like the entire tension strut and lower control arm
> assembly (or just the bushings)?
It would be wise to investigate any possible causes of the bushings
early failure. perhaps the front struts are weak putting added stress
on the cradle bushings.
jaygreg
> In article
> <9cbf4d31-7128-4912-b56c-78b471487...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
I'm a little confused about the replacement bushings:
1) Dorman & Car - Quest I presume these are two different parts
distributors. The vocational center teacher looked recommended I get
the parts (top plates, bolts & sleeves, bottom plates, and nuts) from
Chrysler. What's the general opinion here about getting these
particular parts from secondary market sources other than OEM?
2) >>The nut inside the frame rail is spot welded to keep it from
turning...<< The teacher (who, incidentally claims to have many years
practical experience and will be the one to remove the nuts to reduce
chance of breaking the bolts) described each bushing assembly as
having a replaceable bolt. He lead me to believe he's banking on the
nuts backing off without incident and the bolts slipping out from the
top (though he said there's no room to maneuver from the top if the
bolts break). He wouldn't be able to do this if those bolts are
welded, would he?
He said he can't drill nor torch so I've got to find a backup in the
event he breaks a bolt.
3) If a bolt is broken, the project stops and I'll have to take the
car somewhere (still looking) within a 10 mile radius or so for
removal and replacement by someone who can use a torch.
A) Can the car be drive with a bolt missing for this short distance?
B) What do dealers do when faced with this problem? Are they
equipped?
4) The teach feels there's better than a 50% chance of completing the
project without breaking a bolt if I take the car to him, let him
apply a penetrating oil, return several days later for another
treatment, then return again to attempt the removal of the bolts. Does
his estimate of the probability of success sound on the money, low, or
too high? Judging from Rob's picture of his bolts, I would estimate
mine to be in similar condition. ? He had one in the lower right
corner worst than the rest. I seem to have the same situation.
5) Is there anyone here from a dealership or body shop (frame shop)
with knowledge of multiple replacement at there place of business? If
so, can you guess at the percent of cases where the bolts broke?
6) >>The Dorman parts are only for the first generation LH cars.<<
From aarcuda69062. Is this my car; a first generation LH?
Rob
of replacement parts. Dorman did not make the bushings the first time i did
mine. i needed one replacement due to my steering gear seal leaking so bad
the power steering fluid coming out of it ran down on the cradle bushing and
caused it to swell and pull apart. i called around and Carquest had them
NAPA did not carry them, said dealer only part. It was either buy 2 separate
bushings from Chrysler for somewhere around 65.00 each or buy a pair from
Carquest for 60.00.
But like AARCUDA said, if they only fit the1st generation LH cars then they
most likely wont work on your car and you will need the dealer part.
"jaygreg" <jayg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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aarcuda69062
<88793331-a3d4-45f0...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
jaygreg <jayg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
They are not available from anywhere other than OEM.
> 2) >>The nut inside the frame rail is spot welded to keep it from
> turning...<< The teacher (who, incidentally claims to have many years
> practical experience and will be the one to remove the nuts to reduce
> chance of breaking the bolts) described each bushing assembly as
> having a replaceable bolt. He lead me to believe he's banking on the
> nuts backing off without incident and the bolts slipping out from the
> top (though he said there's no room to maneuver from the top if the
> bolts break). He wouldn't be able to do this if those bolts are
> welded, would he?
> He said he can't drill nor torch so I've got to find a backup in the
> event he breaks a bolt.
There is a small access hole (covered with a plastic patch) on the
inside face of the frame rail but access is blocked by the exhaust
system.
The only way in is to plasma cut an access hole on the outside face of
the frame rail and then mig weld it closed when finished. The plastic
inner fender shield will need to be removed to do this.
> 3) If a bolt is broken, the project stops and I'll have to take the
> car somewhere (still looking) within a 10 mile radius or so for
> removal and replacement by someone who can use a torch.
> A) Can the car be drive with a bolt missing for this short distance?
Not recommended.
> B) What do dealers do when faced with this problem? Are they
> equipped?
They quote the job sky high in hopes that you'll trade the car in on a
new Charger or 300.
The ones with a body shop are equipped, or they farm it out to a body
shop if not.
> 4) The teach feels there's better than a 50% chance of completing the
> project without breaking a bolt if I take the car to him, let him
> apply a penetrating oil, return several days later for another
> treatment, then return again to attempt the removal of the bolts. Does
> his estimate of the probability of success sound on the money, low, or
> too high?
I can only comment that his methods are sound and well thought out.
The probability of success is impossible to determine. Some cars that
you'd swear are going to fight you tooth and nail don't, others that
seem cleaner and less corroded do. Corrosion is random, too many X
factors.
> Judging from Rob's picture of his bolts, I would estimate
> mine to be in similar condition. ? He had one in the lower right
> corner worst than the rest. I seem to have the same situation.
Right rear gets the majority of salt spray.
> 5) Is there anyone here from a dealership or body shop (frame shop)
> with knowledge of multiple replacement at there place of business? If
> so, can you guess at the percent of cases where the bolts broke?
The welded nuts should break loose before the bolt breaks unless the
bolt diameter is reduced because of corrosion. Used to see this a lot
on the GM X bodies when replacing the steering rack.
> 6) >>The Dorman parts are only for the first generation LH cars.<<
> From aarcuda69062. Is this my car; a first generation LH?
2000 model year would be a second generation.
Bill Putney
Rob and aarcuda answered everything well, except, I think you have some
confusion here that hasn't been addressed:
> ...2) >>The nut inside the frame rail is spot welded to keep it from
> turning...<< The teacher (who, incidentally claims to have many years
> practical experience and will be the one to remove the nuts to reduce
> chance of breaking the bolts) described each bushing assembly as
> having a replaceable bolt. He lead me to believe he's banking on the
> nuts backing off without incident and the bolts slipping out from the
> top (though he said there's no room to maneuver from the top if the
> bolts break). He wouldn't be able to do this if those bolts are
> welded, would he?
> He said he can't drill nor torch so I've got to find a backup in the
> event he breaks a bolt...
I may be misunderstanding what you're saying here, but, based on where
you said "He wouldn't be able to do this if those bolts are welded,
would he?", it seems that you thought that when aarcuda said "The nut
inside the frame rail is spot welded to keep it from turning..." that he
was saying that the bolt is tacked to the nut to keep the bolt from
turning. He was saying that the nut is welded to the frame (to keep the
nut from turning relative to the frame).
Like I said - I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but I'm
thinking you were confused on that by mis-reading aarcuda's statement
about the nut being welded.
jaygreg
Sorry for being thick but I'm still a tad confused about that bolt. If
the bolt was spot welded to the frame during assembly, how does the
teacher expect to get it out without cutting an access hole? From his
list of parts I'll need to buy (I'll have to recheck with him Monday),
he included "bolts". Rob's photos doesn't display bolts. I assumed
that's because his replacement was clean; the nuts came off without
incident.
And back to the possibility of moving the car 10 miles or so in the
event one bolt breaks.... surely this wouldn't be recommended BUT -
given the circumstances - I've got to assess risk here. What's the
potential damage that can reasonably be expected if the car were
driven with one bolt broken? After learning what I have here and
elsewhere lately about this design, there are probably a few more cars
on the road with similar problems and the owners don't even realize
the severity yet. My guess is the most probably outcome if I'm forced
to drive 10 miles or so is ... zip; nothing. I may sense a shimmy in
the wheel a tad but probably little else. That's my guess using common
sense, but then .... my experience here is also "zip".
Bill Putney
> Sorry for being thick but I'm still a tad confused about that bolt. If
> the bolt was spot welded to the frame during assembly,...
I haven't seen anything about the *bolt* being welded to anything. Only
that the *nut* is welded to the frame.
jaygreg
>>The nut inside the frame rail is spot welded to keep it from turning...<<
I haven't seen a picture of "the bolt", only the nut on the bottom of
the frame on my car. The phrase "nut INSIDE the frame rail" didn't
register as it should have. I understand now; it's the BOLT that will
turn... not the nut. Is that correct? Can penetrating oil even get up
there and around that nut? Anyone got a diagram or picture of what
these parts in place? I can't find anything in my manual.
aarcuda69062
<321bdd04-5ec9-4347...@x31g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
jaygreg <jayg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Now that you have a clear understanding of the situation, some of the
threads of the bolt stick up above the nut. These threads will corrode
and bind in the nut when he tries to remove the bolt. penetrating oil
will help but it is not a magic cure all. With patience and finesse, he
may get them out without incident.
As for a diagram or picture, imagine a sealed rectangular box, imagine
that inside that box is a nut glued/welded/attached to one face of that
box. Your job is to figure out how to apply over 100 ft.lb. of torque
to that nut repeatedly without it breaking loose and spinning until the
bolt is fully removed.
Your mechanic can start by drilling a 1/2 inch hole in the outboard face
of the frame rail adjacent to the nut, he can then access the nut and
bolt threads with a #2 or #3 welding tip and heat the nut and also burn
any corrosion off of the bolt threads. This should help considerably.
The hole can then be mig welded shut,there will be no structural
concerns as long as the weld is done properly (not too hot) as I believe
the unibody rails are HSLA type steel.
jaygreg
Got it! The instructor/mechanic did mention drilling a hole but I
thought it's purpose was merely to sqirt penetrating oil. He has no
welding equipment... or if he does, he made it clear he wouldn't be
doing any welding. Thus my search for athe backup. Sounds like I'm
going to need his personal skill with the bolts... and a little bit of
luck.
jaygreg
The instructor/mechanic was able to crack 3 of the 4 nuts.
Surprisingly, the one with the best bushing (best shape) is the one
that's giving the most resistance. He had the students squirt a good
amount of penetrating oil onto the bolt from the top and told me to
bring it back next week. He's optimistic it'll free up and I'll be
able to replace all four bushings/mounts.
That good news lead me to decide to keep the car and sink more into
the suspension system... which raised more - but far less serious -
issues. I've spelled them out in a separate posting. I could use some
more advice please. Thanks for helping with the mounts.
"Best Struts/shocks - 2000 Concorde 110K Miles"
aarcuda69062
<5ddca835-7be8-4627...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>,
jaygreg <jayg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hopefully, you all headed to the Casino... ;-)
> That good news lead me to decide to keep the car and sink more into
> the suspension system... which raised more - but far less serious -
> issues. I've spelled them out in a separate posting. I could use some
> more advice please. Thanks for helping with the mounts.
> "Best Struts/shocks - 2000 Concorde 110K Miles"
Know what you mean... I love our 98 Intrepid, thing is, stuff is always
failing like power window motors/switches, AC compressor/evaporator,
steering rack (horrible clanking on bumps) HVAC controls. But it's
fast, roomy, handles like a go-cart, roomy, great drivers seat, smooth,
roomy. Being a mechanic, the repairs don't hurt financially as much as
they would a layman.
Rob
"aarcuda69062" <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
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aarcuda69062
"Rob" <m...@home.orgg> wrote:
> it must be roomy. you put that in 2 times.....lol
Reminds me of a Checker.
Did I mention that it's roomy?
Rob
"aarcuda69062" <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
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