Selling a used car, how do I avoid scams?
General Schvantzkoph
responses but they sound fishy to me. In both cases the buyer is out of
state and wants to arrange to have the car shipped, that just doesn't
sound right. It's a 94 Concorde with 128K miles on it, it's not a hard to
get classic car. One of the buyers said he would send me a certified
check or money order that includes the shipping costs, that's a huge red
flag. I did a little googling and there is a known scam where they
send you a check, your bank accepts it, you send money to the shipper and
then a week later the bank tells you that the check is bad. I sent the
buyer an e-mail and told them they would have to pay the shipper directly.
Was posting an ad on Cars.com a bad idea? The last time I sold a car was
94 which predates Internet scams. I put an ad in the Want Advertiser which
was a print only publication at the time, and I ended up selling it to
someone for cash. The Want Advertiser is online now so it's no safer.
What's the best way to sell a used car these days?
Don
news:pan.2005.09.08....@yahoo.com...
Put it out on the street with a 4-Sale sign.
This concept has been working for the last 80+ years.
Ted Mittelstaedt
try craigslist.org or ebay
I've always found the local newspaper to fetch higher prices. Of course, I
always
insist on cash only.
Ted
"General Schvantzkoph" <schvan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.09.08....@yahoo.com...
General Schvantzkoph
> Put it out on the street with a 4-Sale sign.
>
> This concept has been working for the last 80+ years.
I have done that.
Steve Stone
schvan...@yahoo.com says...
Bring it to a detailer, have it cleaned up. Put it on the front lawn
with a for sale sign... make sure you tell them it gets great mpg (be
truthfull) sell it as is and be firm with your price. It will be gone in
two weeks.
kmat...@sisna.com
You could try making the buyer wait until the check clears the bank,
before it can be shipped. Of course, they may not go for that.
-Kirk Matheson
Steve
verify his information on his side using ID (because of the amount) and they
will pay you when you show up with ID. As far as I know there is no way to
be scammed this way.
"General Schvantzkoph" <schvan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.09.08....@yahoo.com...
Joe
money. You're right, all these fake check and mail back extra money deals
are the going thing. You really can't take a cashier's check any more,
unfortunately, because they're so easy to fake. But luckily, your car's not
worth much, so you can take a cash transaction for it.
"General Schvantzkoph" <schvan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.09.08....@yahoo.com...
Art
guy at the bank and he took the money out and I put it back in the bank.
Bank did the notary stuff for free.
"Joe" <J...@dontspam.net> wrote in message news:6caUe.299$Ma....@fe07.lga...
General Schvantzkoph
> Since the paperwork had to be notarized, last time I sold a car I met the
> guy at the bank and he took the money out and I put it back in the bank.
> Bank did the notary stuff for free.
Nothing has to be notarized in Massachusetts, you just sign the title
over.
I've put an ad on Craig's list that includes the proviso that the deal has
to be done in person, if they want to ship the car to Nigeria they can
forget it. I haven't had any response from the Craig's list ad yet but I'm
gotten three scam responses from the Cars.com add. Two of the guys have
admitted that they are in London. The one who say's he's a broker I told
that I'm selling the car to local buyer. The other one who claims that he
want's it for his son I've told that he would have to take care of the
shipping himself and that I'd require a couple of weeks for the bank to
clear the check, we'll see if he continues to persist with this. I got a
third one that was less well crafted then the others and that included a
phony phone number I simply forwarded to ab...@cars.com.
treeli...@yahoo.com
General Schvantzkoph wrote:
> I've posted an ad on cars.com to sell my Concorde. I've gotten a couple of
> responses but they sound fishy to me. In both cases the buyer is out of
> state and wants to arrange to have the car shipped, that just doesn't
> sound right. It's a 94 Concorde with 128K miles on it, it's not a hard to
> get classic car. One of the buyers said he would send me a certified
> check or money order that includes the shipping costs, that's a huge red
> flag. I did a little googling and there is a known scam where they
> send you a check, your bank accepts it, you send money to the shipper and
> then a week later the bank tells you that the check is bad. I sent the
> buyer an e-mail and told them they would have to pay the shipper directly.
That's good. Actually it can be worse than that. It can take the bank
six weeks or so to find out even a Canadian money order is fraud - a
stolen genuine one for example. Happened to a friend of mine and
everyone was angry at him, even his own bank although he specifically
asked the bank to double-check the money order. He lost big-time on
this scam.
Alex Rodriguez
Don't sweat it. Just tell the buyer you won't release the car until the funds
are in your bank. Pretty straight forward.
------------------
Alex
Alex Rodriguez
treeli...@yahoo.com says...
That's exactly why you wait until the funds clear and are in your bank before
you ship the item you are selling. If the buyer balks, tell them they should
have used a better method to pay.
----------------
Alex
General Schvantzkoph
>>That's good. Actually it can be worse than that. It can take the bank
>>six weeks or so to find out even a Canadian money order is fraud - a
>>stolen genuine one for example. Happened to a friend of mine and
>>everyone was angry at him, even his own bank although he specifically
>>asked the bank to double-check the money order. He lost big-time on
>>this scam.
>
> That's exactly why you wait until the funds clear and are in your bank before
> you ship the item you are selling. If the buyer balks, tell them they should
> have used a better method to pay.
> ----------------
> Alex
The scam has nothing to do with shipping them the car, that never happens
because the "shipper" isn't real. The way that the scam works is that the
certified check appears to be real and the bank accepts it. You then send
a real check to the "shipper" and then sometime later your bank comes back
and tells you that the original check was bogus. As the previous poster
said it can take weeks for the bank to figure it out.
BTW don't ever post an ad on cars.com. I've had mine up for a couple of
weeks and the only responses that I've had have been from scammers, all of
whom seem to be in the UK. I'm pretty sure that the scammers have software
that is monitoring cars.com and automatically sends an e-mail to any new
or edited posting. When I first posted the ad I had several scammers
contact me, then it stopped for a week. I edited the ad and changed the
price last night, I had two more scam inquiries within an hour.
I'm having a little better luck with Craiglist, I've had two calls (not
e-mails) from local people but they haven't gone anywhere. I've been
asking the for the blue-book value which is clearly to high. What is the
consensus of this group about a fair price for a 1994 Concorde with a 3.5L
engine and 128K miles on it?
treeli...@yahoo.com
Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> Don't sweat it. Just tell the buyer you won't release the car until the funds
> are in your bank. Pretty straight forward.
> ------------------
> Alex
Let me try again. Are you aware that funds can be deposited and
undeposited? When that happens, owing to fraud, the FBI and the bank
will come knocking on your door. If you withdrew the the so-called good
deposited funds, then they will demand the monies back pronto. So
someone can be out lots of cash and a car. And the bank will have the
FBI doing the talking. They, at the point, don't care how the fraud was
perpetrated, first they want their money back.
Now if this is cash, regardless of transferring methods or depositing,
I don't see any risk. With things that used to be as good as cash,
there is now considerable risk, like with stolen money orders. They
take time to process and reveal the fraud. The bank in the meantime
releases the money. When weeks or even a month or so later, the fraud
surfaces, the bank wants the money back. They want the money back even
if they okayed the money order!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127267613.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Actually there's a variation on that scam you have to be aware of although
it doesen't apply to car sales, but it works even better for the thieves.
It is
usually done against the buyers - it's the typical bogus item or no-ship,
but
they take care to only defraud you about $30 or less. As a result you do
nothing because the banks want almost that much to issue stop pays, or to
get printouts of cashed money orders. You might think that the thieves
won't
make much money doing this but they are doing it to hundreds of others at
the same time.
Also, one last warning about cash - your not 100% safe there either. Many
states nowadays have discovered how lucrative it is to seize assets for
"forfeiture" For several years Oregon had a law that allowed police
departments to in effect, accuse someone of a crime then seize the alleged
proceeds of the crime. Then even if the person was never charged or was
charged and found not guilty, since the forfeture was a civil action, not a
criminal action, there was not the higher standard of burden of proof on the
cops to prove the proceeds were from something illegal (like a drug sale)
and they were therefore not required to ever return the seized assets. And
they often didn't. Or they would return their cash equivalency less
"reasonable charges" for towing and storage, if it was a car for example,
which basically meant they would tow your car, assess $500 of towing and
storage fees, then sell it at a firesale for $600 and you would get $100
back
if you were lucky. Even if the car was worth $3K or so.
This fun and games was put a stop to during the last election as a result of
a
ballot measure referred by initative petition which was passed, but I'm sure
there's states where it still goes on.
Thus you could conceivably sell your car to someone who paid you in cash
and a week later have the cops arrive and tell you that the cash was a
result
of a drug deal and that they were seizing it for forfeiture.
Ted
David
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:newscache$5wp5ni$t441$1...@news.ipinc.net...
Good story, but I fail to see how the police would know you sold the car for
cash in the first place. The only way I can see it happening is if you were
under surveilance by the police at the time. And if you were, for what
reason? Then I believe the police would have all the evidence to do just
that!
treeli...@yahoo.com
Alex Rodriguez
says...
>
>
>
>>>That's good. Actually it can be worse than that. It can take the bank
>>>six weeks or so to find out even a Canadian money order is fraud - a
>>>stolen genuine one for example. Happened to a friend of mine and
>>>everyone was angry at him, even his own bank although he specifically
>>>asked the bank to double-check the money order. He lost big-time on
>>>this scam.
>>
>> That's exactly why you wait until the funds clear and are in your bank
before
>> you ship the item you are selling. If the buyer balks, tell them they
should
>> have used a better method to pay.
>> ----------------
>> Alex
>
>The scam has nothing to do with shipping them the car, that never happens
>because the "shipper" isn't real. The way that the scam works is that the
>certified check appears to be real and the bank accepts it. You then send
>a real check to the "shipper" and then sometime later your bank comes back
>and tells you that the original check was bogus. As the previous poster
>said it can take weeks for the bank to figure it out.
Again, you wait till the funds hit your account.
>I'm having a little better luck with Craiglist, I've had two calls (not
>e-mails) from local people but they haven't gone anywhere. I've been
>asking the for the blue-book value which is clearly to high. What is the
>consensus of this group about a fair price for a 1994 Concorde with a 3.5L
>engine and 128K miles on it?
Go to www.kbb.com and use the 'private party sale' value as a starting point.
---------------
Alex
General Schvantzkoph
> Go to www.kbb.com and use the 'private party sale' value as a starting point.
> ---------------
> Alex
That's the price I've been using, the Kelly Blue Book private party sales
value of a 94 Concorde in fair condition with 128K miles on it. I've only
had a couple of nibbles. I've just put an ad in the Want Advertiser which
is how I sold my previous car back in 94, hopefully it will do better.
Ted Mittelstaedt
"David" <davi...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:kacYe.11760$GQ4.3060@fed1read05...
Easy, they arrest the drug dealer and start questioning him and want to know
where all his money is and where he got the expensive car from. Since they
want the money rather than a vehicle under a forfeiture, it's not beyond my
belief that if the sale took place 3 days earlier and the dealer hadn't sent
in
the title yet that they would drag the car back to you and tell you that
it's your car
and since the money was criminal you owe it back. And if the vehicle has
a few smashed windows when they busted the guy, tough. I know it sounds
farfetched but some of the abuses that took place under the forfeture law
in Oregon were unbelievable, you would think they were talking about Russia.
One guy, for example, some old farmer who didn't trust banks, had $80,000
in cash under his mattress, the cops busted in one day on a tip from a
neighbor, searched his house, found zero drugs or drug paraphnelia, found
the money, claimed it under forfeture, and 4 years later the guy was still
fighting them with a lawsuit. He has never even been charged with a crime
much less convicted. The cops claimed some of the money had drug residue on
it.
Well it's estimated that every bill in circuilation for any length of time
in the
United States has drug residue on it. It is stories like that which got the
forfeture law thrown out via initative.
When I bought our 95 T&C some years back for close to $6K, I paid the seller
in cash.
I had gone to the bank on Friday and withdrew it and had it with me. When
we agreed
on the price he started saying something about going to the bank on Monday
and getting
a cashiers check, and I pulled out the wad of $100 bills and started
counting them out.
It was fun watching his expression.
One of these days if I ever win the lottery I'd just love to drop $45K in
hundreds on
the desk at a car dealership, just to watch them salivate. My father in law
who works at a dealership has seen people in that income bracket whip out
checkbooks and write
personal checks for that amount on the spot. But I don't think it has the
same raw
in your face effect as that much cash would.
Ted
treeli...@yahoo.com
> Easy, they arrest the drug dealer and start questioning him and want to know
> where all his money is and where he got the expensive car from. Since they
> want the money rather than a vehicle under a forfeiture, it's not beyond my
> belief that if the sale took place 3 days earlier and the dealer hadn't sent
> in
> the title yet that they would drag the car back to you and tell you that
> it's your car
> and since the money was criminal you owe it back. And if the vehicle has
> a few smashed windows when they busted the guy, tough. I know it sounds
> farfetched but some of the abuses that took place under the forfeture law
> in Oregon were unbelievable, you would think they were talking about Russia.
> One guy, for example, some old farmer who didn't trust banks, had $80,000
> in cash under his mattress, the cops busted in one day on a tip from a
> neighbor, searched his house, found zero drugs or drug paraphnelia, found
> the money, claimed it under forfeture, and 4 years later the guy was still
> fighting them with a lawsuit. He has never even been charged with a crime
> much less convicted. The cops claimed some of the money had drug residue on
> it.
> Well it's estimated that every bill in circuilation for any length of time
> in the
> United States has drug residue on it. It is stories like that which got the
> forfeture law thrown out via initative.
You would think after all this time after the Salem Witch Trials of
centuries ago here in 1692, people would give this up. When you look at
what happpened way back when, the Massachusetts Bay Colony Corporation
seized all the assets of those who confessed to being a witch or found
guilty at trial.
They were almost 100% successful except for one man. They literally
pressed him to death between stones but his family kept the property
because he, Giles Corey, refused to go to trial. And he also refused to
confess while tortured to death.
Your comments about seeing the green are quite so. I have been told
that showing the cash one can bargain even more. Maybe the fellow was
surprised not only about the show of the money but that you did not
further dicker about the price since you were saving him some time and
trouble. A very low hassle sale for him.
Ted Mittelstaedt
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127594281.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> They were almost 100% successful except for one man. They literally
> pressed him to death between stones but his family kept the property
> because he, Giles Corey, refused to go to trial. And he also refused to
> confess while tortured to death.
Yes, Cory was a shrewd man - being 80 he had lived his life and he
planned his martyrdom very cleverly. He didn't refuse to go to trial
to save his property. He chose not to go to trial because that would
automatically force a death by pressing penalty - and there hadn't been
a pressing before in the colony. It's a sickening death and one that
Cory suspected would revolt the colony members and cause them to
think the witchcraft trials had gone too far - which it did. Pressing
was a death that was just as bad to watch as it was to suffer. Cory
had opposed the witchcraft trials and he arrainged his death as
revenge against his accusers, and it worked very well. 3 days after
he was pressed there were some more witches hanged, then they
all started to get acquitted and those were the last of the witches
hung. Cory was the only one pressed for this, by the way.
> Your comments about seeing the green are quite so. I have been told
> that showing the cash one can bargain even more.
I've heard that before but I think that is a highly risky strategy. If the
person your buying the vehicle from has never sold a car before it might
work - but if they are like me and they have sold a few cars it's just going
to piss them off because it's such an obvious trick.
I've had people call me on the phone before when I've listed vehicles and
before even coming over to see it, start trying to dicker with me over the
price. Twice I've had people tell me they would pay cash for it as if that
was 'more desirable' I've always told those people that I certainly don't
expect to sell a vehicle for anything OTHER than cash!
As a buyer I think the best strategy is to assume the seller is
sophisticated
and not try to pull dumb tricks. If the seller is an idiot then they will
feel
as though your a nice guy who is respectful, if the seller is sophisticated
they will appreciate not being insulted by dumb tricks.
When I go to look at a used car I call in advance and ask for the VIN
then I run it against the free carfax to get the make and model and year.
I've had a few people list vehicles 1 year younger than what the actual
year is that I've caught - generally I don't even call those people back.
If the advertising checks out then I will go to look at it. When I get
there
I'll spend some time talking to the seller before even looking at the car,
to get an idea of how flexible they are going to be.
For example when I was looking for our first van I went to one place
and the woman was asking $3K for her van, as soon as I got out of my
car I saw the side of her van was all rumpled. She had obviously got
t-boned or something. I looked at her and said "well thanks but I won't
waste any more of your time" She asked 'aren't you going to look at it'
and I told her "your listing it for $3K which is blue book for it, but it's
got at least $3K worth of body damage on it, you obviously have young
children since I see bikes and toys in the yard so you need a van, if
the only thing wrong with this one was cosmetic damage you would still
be driving it, but I see a brand new van in your garage. Your a single
mother since no husband in his right mind would choose a van for a
commuting vehicle when his wife already drives one, so that van in
the garage is the replacement for the one out here in the driveway,
and your replacing this one because there's more damage than just
cosmetic. Your asking a completely rediculous price because you
need the money to pay a credit card off that you probably overextended
for the new van. I'm not going to have any luck talking you down from $3K
to
what it's really worth, which is about $300 bucks, because you can't
afford to take the $2500 loss" Oh man did she glare! Pretty harsh
but she got off cheaply otherwise, I was the one who had to waste
45 minutes of time driving to and from a dry hole. And it may have
helped the next buyer.
> Maybe the fellow was
> surprised not only about the show of the money but that you did not
> further dicker about the price since you were saving him some time and
> trouble. A very low hassle sale for him.
>
Oh, I had already got through beating him down and we had agreed
on a price by then, and as this was a cherry vehicle and the luxury
version of it, he was definitely going to get what we settled on from
someone else. Truthfully I could have got the same vehicle, mechanically
equivalent, if I had just gone for a 3.3L Caravan extended wheelbase, for
probably
$1500 to $2000 less. But I was buying this for my wife, and most women
put far more stock in fripperies like leather seats and power windows
than they do the powertrain. And when your wife has just had a baby
and you have hormone city in your house, there's not a lot that can buy
you some peace and quiet during that time, you would gladly pay the
$1500-$2000 if it would do so (which this did). I think that's why I
never heard the "I was in labor for 8 hours with your child" argument
from her. ;-)
Actually, I think he was surprised simply because he hadn't sold a
vehicle before through private sale. He and his family lived in a very
nice house in a upper middle class section of the city and I got to
talking with him after we finished up, and he admitted that he had always
traded in his vehicles before, but this time around a friend of his had
helped him to price it and convinced him to go private sale, he would get
more money that way. I told him his friend was absolutely right, and I
also warned him that fake cashiers checks are easy to create on a PC,
and to never accept anything other than cash.
Ted
treeli...@yahoo.com
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> Yes, Cory was a shrewd man - being 80 he had lived his life and he
> planned his martyrdom very cleverly. He didn't refuse to go to trial
> to save his property. He chose not to go to trial because that would
> automatically force a death by pressing penalty - and there hadn't been
> a pressing before in the colony. It's a sickening death and one that
> Cory suspected would revolt the colony members and cause them to
> think the witchcraft trials had gone too far - which it did. Pressing
> was a death that was just as bad to watch as it was to suffer. Cory
> had opposed the witchcraft trials and he arrainged his death as
> revenge against his accusers, and it worked very well. 3 days after
> he was pressed there were some more witches hanged, then they
> all started to get acquitted and those were the last of the witches
> hung. Cory was the only one pressed for this, by the way.
How come you know so much :) So all these years poor Cory Giles got
zero credit for ending the slaughter or killing at the Salem Witch
Trial? He did not do it for his family at all? Maybe he had no family
so that's how you know? I never read that before. Poor Corey. Why did
they pick on him? He had a nice property? At 80, it's unlikely he had
the visions and hallucinations. Still he did an awful lot for a
community that killed him in a particularly gruesome way. I gather he
did not have claustrophobia.
PBS had a quaint show on this. Probably the damp season and the ergot ?
fungus on the wheat gave the girls a bit of a hallucinogenic high, like
eating too many illegal mushrooms. The thing I loved was that recently
they excavated the house of the main preacher killer, and he was an
alcoholic with all these forbidden bottles hidden below the house. Just
another TV Bible Belt preacher like what's his name but up north.
> I've had people call me on the phone before when I've listed vehicles and
> before even coming over to see it, start trying to dicker with me over the
> price. Twice I've had people tell me they would pay cash for it as if that
> was 'more desirable' I've always told those people that I certainly don't
> expect to sell a vehicle for anything OTHER than cash!
Good reply, I'll try to remember that. You should compile a list. I
never think well on my feet, or for that matter, not so well when
sitting down, come to think of it...
> For example when I was looking for our first van I went to one place
> and the woman was asking $3K for her van, as soon as I got out of my
> car I saw the side of her van was all rumpled. She had obviously got
> t-boned or something. I looked at her and said "well thanks but I won't
> waste any more of your time" She asked 'aren't you going to look at it'
> and I told her "your listing it for $3K which is blue book for it, but it's
> got at least $3K worth of body damage on it, you obviously have young
> children since I see bikes and toys in the yard so you need a van, if
> the only thing wrong with this one was cosmetic damage you would still
> be driving it, but I see a brand new van in your garage. Your a single
> mother since no husband in his right mind would choose a van for a
> commuting vehicle when his wife already drives one, so that van in
> the garage is the replacement for the one out here in the driveway,
> and your replacing this one because there's more damage than just
> cosmetic. Your asking a completely rediculous price because you
> need the money to pay a credit card off that you probably overextended
> for the new van. I'm not going to have any luck talking you down from $3K
> to
> what it's really worth, which is about $300 bucks, because you can't
> afford to take the $2500 loss" Oh man did she glare! Pretty harsh
> but she got off cheaply otherwise, I was the one who had to waste
> 45 minutes of time driving to and from a dry hole. And it may have
> helped the next buyer.
That's a lot to work through. After driving 45 minutes I would have
been too bummed out to think all that through. You sound like a murder
mystery solver putting all the clues together. Not bad. Have you ever
thought about social science? We could use someone who can think. Most
just talk instead.
Ted Mittelstaedt
<treeli...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127669571....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > Yes, Cory was a shrewd man - being 80 he had lived his life and he
> > planned his martyrdom very cleverly. He didn't refuse to go to trial
> > to save his property. He chose not to go to trial because that would
> > automatically force a death by pressing penalty - and there hadn't been
> > a pressing before in the colony. It's a sickening death and one that
> > Cory suspected would revolt the colony members and cause them to
> > think the witchcraft trials had gone too far - which it did. Pressing
> > was a death that was just as bad to watch as it was to suffer. Cory
> > had opposed the witchcraft trials and he arrainged his death as
> > revenge against his accusers, and it worked very well. 3 days after
> > he was pressed there were some more witches hanged, then they
> > all started to get acquitted and those were the last of the witches
> > hung. Cory was the only one pressed for this, by the way.
>
> How come you know so much :) So all these years poor Cory Giles got
> zero credit for ending the slaughter or killing at the Salem Witch
> Trial?
He didn't end it, he started the process of turnning people against it.
By the time the girls fingered the governers wife, (which is what
most people credit for ending it) much of the colony was disgusted
with the process. If the colony had still been lusting for blood, they
would have hung her too.
> He did not do it for his family at all?
By the time he was accused he had already deeded the property over
to his son-in-law.
> Maybe he had no family
> so that's how you know? I never read that before. Poor Corey. Why did
> they pick on him?
Because he was a member of the opposition group in church that had always
opposed the Putnams, long before the witchhunt started.
> He had a nice property? At 80, it's unlikely he had
> the visions and hallucinations. Still he did an awful lot for a
> community that killed him in a particularly gruesome way. I gather he
> did not have claustrophobia.
>
> PBS had a quaint show on this. Probably the damp season and the ergot ?
> fungus on the wheat gave the girls a bit of a hallucinogenic high, like
> eating too many illegal mushrooms.
Rubbish. Ann Putnam publically apologized a few years later in church
and asked for forgiveness. She admitted the whole thing was fabricated.
She basically spent the rest of her life caring for her siblings (her
parents
died very young) never married, and died at age 37.
> The thing I loved was that recently
> they excavated the house of the main preacher killer, and he was an
> alcoholic with all these forbidden bottles hidden below the house. Just
> another TV Bible Belt preacher like what's his name but up north.
>
He was fired from the congregation 2 years later, and ran off to the
frontier and was never heard from again.
The Salem witch trials are often used as an example of the damage of
overzealous government but the real truth of it is that these are
extremely difficult for a modern American citizen to understand,
and they are NOT an example of overzealous government. They
are an example of religious fanatacism.
A lot of this is due to the educational system in this country being
scared to death of mentioning religion in any way shape or form.
The educational system harps over and over how the Pilgrims came
to America to be free of religious persecution. What it fails to
mention is that the Pilgrims had absolutely no intention whatsoever
of setting up a society that had any more religious tolerance than
the one they were fleeing. The Pilgrims totally bought into the idea
that the Church and the government are one and the same - they
just didn't like England at the time because THEY wern't in control.
What the witch trials did in America is they began the slow process,
which cumulated 80 years later in the Declaration of Independence
and the US Constitution, of getting people disillusioned with a lot of
the religious claptrap that the Church had been spewing out in order
to maintain control over the citenzry. The whole thing of the supernatural
and witchcraft was an invention of the Church used to control members
through fear. After the trials were over, because they had been so
incredibly bad and so many people who had been previously regarded
as pious members of the community had been either hung or imprisioned,
people began to become disillusioned with the idea of the supernatural
devil and his legions or evil imps hiding behind every door. Many of
the church leaders felt personally responsible for the carnage and they
turned their back on the idea of the supernatural devil, and began to
realize that for the church to survive that they must stop concentrating
on what they were afraid of - witchcraft, the devil, etc. - and start
concentrating on what the church had to offer that was good - love,
Jesus, etc.
And that is what began it - because the religious doctorine of Christianity
being about the love of Christ - is fundamentally incompatible with
government. Government is mostly about telling people what to do
who don't want to do it and that hasn't changed even today.
If you understand this you will see how unsatisfying the Salem
witch trials are as an analogy to government abuse. Look at what
happened afterwards - none of the girls were sent to prision or
hanged for bearing false witness - which is not only a tremendous
secular crime but a terible religious crime - it's specifically forbidden
in the 10 commandments. Only one of them - Ann Putnam - made
any kind of public apology or atonement for her role. From a
secular viewpoint, these girls committed terrible crimes and got off
scott free. But if you look at it from a Christian point of view, what
happened is that these girls were forgiven, as Christ teaches to forgive,
and Christ does not demand a public atonement, either, thus it is
not for us to judge even the girls who never admitted they were lying,
as we don't know what they really admitted to Christ in their hearts.
Well, by that time I had looked at at least a dozen vans, and all of them
either had serious problems which the sellers were trying to hide (rather
badly) or they were tremendously overpriced for what they were, and I
had seen the same deal so many times before that I had figured it out
and was just getting pissed off that my time was being wasted.
There's a lot of people out there who simply don't think ahead - they
own a vehicle and drive it for a few years, never maintaining it, then
one day it breaks down and when they go to a garage, the mechanic
looks at it and just shakes his head, there's just too much stuff that
needs fixing. So the mechanic tells them the old "this will cost more
to fix than it's worth" Now, what that is really translated to is "you
have beat this poor piece of shit to the ground, sell it to a wrecker for
$50 and go find another $2000 vehicle to beat to the ground, ya
damn (ab)user." But what these people think is "Oh, I deserve a nice
new car!" and they run out to a car dealer and spend too much
money on a new piece of shit. Of course, the new car dealer isn't
going to give them squat in trade in value for an old beat up POS so
they don't trade it in. Then, a month later all the bills are piling up
for the down payment, the insurance and all that, and they absolutely
must have $3K to pay all that off, so they put an ad in the paper for
their old car. Then they get a couple dozen calls, and a dozen people
come out that week to look at their car and nobody buys it, so they
keep relisting it in the paper the next week.
Eventually after about a month or two, they finally figure out that they
aren't going to get $3K out of it and then they drop the price, and then
it sells.
This is why there's so many ads in the paper that are just bogus. I
estimate about 3/4 of them are overpriced POS that is still in the
relist over and over phase. And the correctly priced stuff sells as soon as
it
lists, so you really have a very narrow window when the paper
comes out - less than 24 hours - where you can make a decent
deal. It's very frustrating to go out on a bogus vehicle sale because
all the time that you wasting looking at something that is obviously
mis-advertised, the stuff that is good that week is disappearing
Ted