Its the 90's, American foolish pride is over!!!!
Muskie
" Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
Ahhh,,, let us breath a sigh of relief for the end of
the Mcarthy era.... yet, so many americans seem stuck in that
era. I constantly hear all these hand on heart, anthem singing
buy-american only fools ripping apart every single thing made overseas
or designed overseas. these are the same people that say,
" yes! continue the embargo on Cuba! Castro(even though he is 1000
years old) is a danger and threat to americas safety. His army is
dangerous!". Rubbish! Or how about, " the grass was greener then,
and we had to walk 50 miles to school in a hurricane!"
Well, you loudmouth, pabst blue ribbon drinkin slobs, its the 90's!
Wake up people! the " japs" arent out to bomb us! There are no hidden
bombs in foregin cars! What is not to like about european and japanese
cars? they are the finest, quality-engineered cars and trucks in the
world! They offer refinement+ power+ good gas mileage! just because
they are made and designed somewhere else doesnt mean they are inferior!
In fact, by all records and accounts, they simply destroy american
made vehicles in quality and reliability! Just research a bit, the
answers are all waiting for you! You may say that the American v8s tow
more faster and easier, but what good is that when the american trucks
overheat everytime you go up a mountain pass or rev the engine past 4
1/2 RPM ? At least the foreign vehicles can hold up when taken
offroad, and the door panels and trim dont fall off when driving bumpy
roads! Look at the Jeep Cherokees! Time and time again, people
take their jeep GC in because the trim and panels are barley
hanging on! HOw would you feel if you had to drive a jeep GC down the
road with CRAP falling off it while everyone with a quality car laughs
at you? Doesnt jeep think we can see the crooked trim and body panels
when we are driving on the road and spot a jeep GC? It is an
embarrassment to people everywhere who like quality to see
such a pile of crap driving down the road.
What about the term "japscrap" ? Anyone and everyone who uses
that phrase most likely lives in a trailer park and has old
refrigerators and tires laying about in the yard. They must eat'
microwave dinners and gritz, and jump up and yell at the tv when Rambo
finishes off the bad guys. From what I have seen, many of these folks
inhabit the usenet, and that is very scary.
" My american truck will CRUSH your japscrap truck! ", yells Vino,
an uneducated, drunken, stained shirt and gritz eatin slob.
Every night, Vino looks at the Dixie flag hanging above his bed,
and prays for the revenge of the south. Vino is the type
of guy who has been on the Riki lake and Carnie Wilson show.
He dreams about a slave wife who cooks and cleans for him, while
he gets the oil leak fixed on his dodge.
I have seen a lot of "Vinos" on the auto groups, and it makes me
sick. the times have changed Vinos! It is the 90's! You are all
about to become dinasours, while the rest of the world passes you up
like a 96 Toyota Supra passing a 87 Chevy Cavalier on the interstate.
If you wish, you can hold on to your fossilized views, and sulk
in your trailer, or you can join the rest of the modern world and strive
forward into the 21st century.-----Muskie
brent
mi...@mail.ntsource.com (Muskie) wrote:
> I have seen a lot of "Vinos" on the auto groups, and it makes me
>sick. the times have changed Vinos! It is the 90's! You are all
>about to become dinasours, while the rest of the world passes you up
>like a 96 Toyota Supra passing a 87 Chevy Cavalier on the interstate.
>If you wish, you can hold on to your fossilized views, and sulk
>in your trailer, or you can join the rest of the modern world and strive
>forward into the 21st century.-----Muskie
i really hate to reply to this......BUT if the japanese make such
great cars...such as the aforementioned Supra,rx-7,300zx,etc..
why is it that they cant build anything for under 40,000 that will run
with my 20,000 Z28?....WOW what a great value!!.....that must be why
they dont bother to import them anymore...they cant sell them.
the supra was selling 100 units a month last time i looked
hmmmm.....Muskie you are so smart and cool....i guess ill go waste
some more money on my 'murican cars to park in the 2 car garage of my
90000 dollar home.that i can afford cuz i DON'T waste money on
japanese overpriced underperforming cars
brent
95Z
Joseph M. Saul
Stop the madness.
Please stop responding to this guy; he's just trying to get a flame war
started for his own amusement.
And you know what? It works EVERY TIME. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Don't get suckered. If you refuse to respond to him, eventually he'll go
away and find something else to do.
-- Joe
Lloyd R. Parker
Muskie (mi...@mail.ntsource.com) wrote:
:
: Well, you loudmouth, pabst blue ribbon drinkin slobs, its the 90's!
: Wake up people! the " japs" arent out to bomb us! There are no hidden
: bombs in foregin cars!
Except the economic ones. Isn't a trade war -- an attack on another
country's economy -- just as bad as a shooting war?
: What is not to like about european and japanese
: cars? they are the finest, quality-engineered cars and trucks in the
: world! They offer refinement+ power+ good gas mileage!
They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
less room and power. It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
American car are stupid.
: Look at the Jeep Cherokees! Time and time again, people
: take their jeep GC in because the trim and panels are barley
: hanging on!
Then don't drive through barley fields! The farmer wouldn't appreciate
your crushing his barley before he harvests it anyway, much less getting
barley stuck in your trim panels!
Rod
In article <53it43$k...@larry.cc.emory.edu>
lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu (Lloyd R. Parker) writes:
>
>Muskie (mi...@mail.ntsource.com) wrote:
>:
>: What is not to like about european and japanese
>: cars? they are the finest, quality-engineered cars and trucks in the
>: world! They offer refinement+ power+ good gas mileage!
>
>They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
>less room and power. It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
>price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
>Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
>American car are stupid.
to be more expensive. This is how I figure it, domestics dont have to
pay import taxes unless they're rebadged imports or for some reason they
decided to make a car in a foriegn country. If cost of manufacturing and
R&D, etc. are the same...... Of course imports would be more expensive...
Oh,BTW, Muskie u can stop posting now. I think we seen ur posts about
buying American is stupid a tad too many times now.....
Regards,
---
-Rod Automotive Statistics Internet
1ryh...@ibm.mtsac.edu 1994 Toyota Supra Turbo
rod...@geocities.com 1996 Honda Accord LX
RHN: http://www.mtsac.edu:81/~1ryh2766/
Mark Brindle
Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
: Except the economic ones. Isn't a trade war -- an attack on another
: country's economy -- just as bad as a shooting war?
Yes, Lloyd, a trade war is *just* as bad as a shooting war; they're
exactly the same ...in precisely the same way that "torque = work".
Either you've never been shot at -- or the VC blew your brains out.
...which is it, Lloyd?
Mark
Bentley
Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) said something like:
: : Well, you loudmouth, pabst blue ribbon drinkin slobs, its the 90's!
: : Wake up people! the " japs" arent out to bomb us! There are no hidden
: : bombs in foregin cars!
: country's economy -- just as bad as a shooting war?
Attack? It's an attack to supply a product that Americans want to buy?
: : What is not to like about european and japanese
: : cars? they are the finest, quality-engineered cars and trucks in the
: : world! They offer refinement+ power+ good gas mileage!
:
: They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
: less room and power.
But better handling.
It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
: price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
: Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
: American car are stupid.
I agree with you 100%. There is no perfect car, and with the exception of
Sweden, I can't think of a country that exports both good and bad cars. To
say "imports are better" is foolish. To say the inverse is equally
foolish. Too many players to make such a broad generalization. (Funny how
it takes a radical like Muskrat to put you and me on the same side!)
: : Look at the Jeep Cherokees! Time and time again, people
: : take their jeep GC in because the trim and panels are barley
: : hanging on!
:
: Then don't drive through barley fields! The farmer wouldn't appreciate
: your crushing his barley before he harvests it anyway, much less getting
: barley stuck in your trim panels!
Heh. Good one.
Robert Adair
Well I think you miss the point the Idea is to buy from the USA that way
you support U.S job's that way you won't have to travel to Japan to work.
Muskie <mi...@mail.ntsource.com> wrote in article
<53i9qa$p...@nemesis.ntsource.com>...
> " Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
>
> Ahhh,,, let us breath a sigh of relief for the end of
> the Mcarthy era.... yet, so many americans seem stuck in that
> era. I constantly hear all these hand on heart, anthem singing
> buy-american only fools ripping apart every single thing made overseas
> or designed overseas. these are the same people that say,
> " yes! continue the embargo on Cuba! Castro(even though he is 1000
> years old) is a danger and threat to americas safety. His army is
> dangerous!". Rubbish! Or how about, " the grass was greener then,
> and we had to walk 50 miles to school in a hurricane!"
>
> Well, you loudmouth, pabst blue ribbon drinkin slobs, its the 90's!
> Wake up people! the " japs" arent out to bomb us! There are no hidden
> bombs in foregin cars! What is not to like about european and japanese
> cars? they are the finest, quality-engineered cars and trucks in the
> world! They offer refinement+ power+ good gas mileage! just because
> they are made and designed somewhere else doesnt mean they are inferior!
> In fact, by all records and accounts, they simply destroy american
> made vehicles in quality and reliability! Just research a bit, the
> answers are all waiting for you! You may say that the American v8s tow
> more faster and easier, but what good is that when the american trucks
> overheat everytime you go up a mountain pass or rev the engine past 4
> 1/2 RPM ? At least the foreign vehicles can hold up when taken
> offroad, and the door panels and trim dont fall off when driving bumpy
> roads! Look at the Jeep Cherokees! Time and time again, people
> take their jeep GC in because the trim and panels are barley
> hanging on! HOw would you feel if you had to drive a jeep GC down the
> road with CRAP falling off it while everyone with a quality car laughs
> at you? Doesnt jeep think we can see the crooked trim and body panels
> when we are driving on the road and spot a jeep GC? It is an
> embarrassment to people everywhere who like quality to see
> such a pile of crap driving down the road.
>
> What about the term "japscrap" ? Anyone and everyone who uses
> that phrase most likely lives in a trailer park and has old
> refrigerators and tires laying about in the yard. They must eat'
> microwave dinners and gritz, and jump up and yell at the tv when Rambo
> finishes off the bad guys. From what I have seen, many of these folks
> inhabit the usenet, and that is very scary.
>
> " My american truck will CRUSH your japscrap truck! ", yells Vino,
> an uneducated, drunken, stained shirt and gritz eatin slob.
>
> Every night, Vino looks at the Dixie flag hanging above his bed,
> and prays for the revenge of the south. Vino is the type
> of guy who has been on the Riki lake and Carnie Wilson show.
> He dreams about a slave wife who cooks and cleans for him, while
> he gets the oil leak fixed on his dodge.
>
Bentley
brent (br...@siscom.net) said something like:
: hmmmm.....Muskie you are so smart and cool....i guess ill go waste
: some more money on my 'murican cars to park in the 2 car garage of my
: 90000 dollar home.that i can afford cuz i DON'T waste money on
: japanese overpriced underperforming cars
Yikes, where do you live, Iowa? $90k won't get you an efficieny condo out
here (DC-Baltimore).
I gotta move... :(
Joseph Lee
Robert Adair (r...@primenet.com) wrote:
: Well I think you miss the point the Idea is to buy from the USA that way
: you support U.S job's that way you won't have to travel to Japan to work.
Except a lot of "Japanese" cars are made in the US. Support US jobs, buy a
quality car that's good for you.
Joseph
--
Joseph /================+========+=============+============================\
nugu...@netcom.com | Kronos | Anime Expo | Cal-Animage Epsilon (Anime) >
-------------------------+--------+ '97 | Engineering Tower TEC #201 >
II(> Creative 'Ware <)II | IIGS | Los Angeles | Thursdays, 7pm - 10pm /
DUELLO
That is why their are more jeeps on the road i guess, thay are crap not.
Aardwolf
Muskie wrote:
> about to become dinasours, while the rest of the world passes you up
> like a 96 Toyota Supra passing a 87 Chevy Cavalier on the interstate.
It's not that hard for anything even remotely decent to pass an '87 Chevy
Cavalier on the interstate. :-)
Aardwolf.
Larry Becker
On 10 Oct 1996 07:49:30 GMT, mi...@mail.ntsource.com (Muskie) wrote:
> " Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
Whew, I was getting worried there for a minute. I mean its been 10
days since your last posting of shit here. Gotta admit it, we all
know we shouldnt reply to this prick, yet there is something inside
all of us that just wants to vent when we come home from work. I
guess it's better than beating the wife and kids (not that I have
either of 'em). I gotta admit his posts used to be a bit more
interesting and humorous to read. THings are getting a bit monotonous
at this point, so I dont htink this thread will have the usual 100+
posts, although I could be wrong. Hey Muskie, why not give us your
e-mail address better so we can do this on a more personal level?
BTW, why are you posting this on a Honda group as well? If I recall I
picked this up off the Mustang group so I could be more to your target
market, but the Honda people are already "your people".
Larry
Jerry Bransford
Larry H wrote:
>
> mi...@mail.ntsource.com (Muskie) wrote:
> I liked Muskoil better when terrorists had
> accosted him and he signed off newsgroups
> forever.
Ain't that the truth LOL!
--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!
Todd Murray
Muskie wrote:
>
> " Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
Yes, for about three weeks back in 1993. That was right after the
Branch Davidian fire when I was living in Texas.
[snip]
> I have seen a lot of "Vinos" on the auto groups, and it makes me
> sick. the times have changed Vinos! It is the 90's! You are all
> about to become dinasours, while the rest of the world passes you up
> like a 96 Toyota Supra passing a 87 Chevy Cavalier on the interstate.
> If you wish, you can hold on to your fossilized views, and sulk
> in your trailer, or you can join the rest of the modern world and strive
> forward into the 21st century.-----Muskie
I have only a few things to say:
1. Arguing with you is useless, as you haven't listened to any other
well-reasoned arguments posted here.
2. If you post blanket insults directed at anyone who's ever bought an
American car or truck, then get a bunch of flames back, you shouldn't be
surprised. Then you use that as "evidence" that everyone lives in a
trailer park and is a "flag-waver".
3. You seem to know a lot about trailer parks. You might want to drive
around some other neighborhoods sometime and see that people who live in
townhouses, apartments, single-family homes, and so forth also drive
American cars.
4. I wish I still had that program that sent out random cancel messages
every time an article from ntsource.com got posted to this newsgroup.
Unfortunately, I lost it when I changed ISP's.
Oh, by the way, I was kidding about the Communist stuff. I was also
kidding about the cancel program -- no ISP I know of would let me run
it. Damn.
--
Todd Murray - t...@visi.com http://www.visi.com/~tam/
Slightly deranged mountain biker, snow skater, former customer
of Winternet, and proud owner of a 1997 Jeep Wrangler (TJ).
Mike Clark
Muskie wrote:
>
> " Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
>
No, I'm not a commie--but I'm seriously beginning to wonder about YOU.
--
Mike Clark
1996 SVT Cobra Convertible #693/2510
(Crystal White/White/Saddle Tan)
SCOA
MCA
Daryl Mark Krzewinski
mi...@mail.ntsource.com (Muskie) recently wrote this:
[SNIP]
Hey Musk Rat,
Still not employed, I see. How long you gonna suck off the
"Pabst-drinkin slobs" that give you all the time in the world to spam
this kinda garbage? Can't you be a little less obvious about your
troll?
Even Mickey D's pays close to $6/hour these days, so go fill out an
application for cryin' out loud. Don't let past rejections get you
down!
===============================================================================
Rockwell Automation
Allen-Bradley Company
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daryl M. Krzewinski Distributed I/O Engineering
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Control and Information Group E-mail: Daryl.Kr...@AB.com
Mayfield Heights, Ohio Phone: 216.646.3960
===============================================================================
Any opinions expressed are not necessarily those of A-B, myself, or anyone else
for that matter.
Brandon Sommerville
On 10 Oct 1996 09:18:59 -0400, lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu (Lloyd R.
Parker) is accused of saying:
>Muskie (mi...@mail.ntsource.com) wrote:
<snip muskie flame bait>
>: What is not to like about european and japanese
>: cars? they are the finest, quality-engineered cars and trucks in the
>: world! They offer refinement+ power+ good gas mileage!
>
>They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
>less room and power. It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
>price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
>Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
>American car are stupid.
Lloyd finally admits it!!!!! American cars are not as reliable as
imports!!! Call the papers!!! Bentley, Gumby, Ron, check it out!!
Brandon Sommerville
'87 16v Scirocco
N. Wicker
Well, I must admit, I do drink Pabst Blue Ribbon ...on occasion! I also
like a wide variety of other beers. Most commonly I drink Warstiener, a
premium German beer. There are some really bad beers out there, but
almost all beer is bad without BARLEY! I would also like to implore all
the many hundreds of thousands of Jeep drivers and owners out
there(myself and my brother included!) to 'Save the BARLEY!' It is our
rallying call. Of course, I've never had any BARLEY stuck in my trim
panels, I tend to drive on the roads mostly. I have been known to rough
it up on the trails, in the dirt, and sometimes I even hit some sand and
mud(Hey, it's a Jeep and it's built for that!) Even though MY Jeep(and
Keiths') doesn't HAVE trim panels, only trim STRIPS on the exterior, I would
like to caution all those many Jeeptarians worldwide about driving
through BARLEY fields. As a scientist, I have read about a carnivorous
strain of BARLEY plant that will actually ATTACK people(only in Jeeps) as
they are driving through BARLEY fields! Apparently it is triggered by an
artificial phermone produced by BARLEY grains when they are brewed! This
plant will literally reach INTO the vehicle, take a bite or two out of
the offensive beer drinking, Jeep driving, brewed BARLEY smelling, BARLEY
field driving, unsuspecting person!! Despite the many other commercial
uses of BARLEY, this plant only seems to react on beer drinking Jeep
owners! There is, however, anoth....OH....Hey...is that a TYPO?! Was
that suppose to be bar-E-ly!...Oh...
Email: nwi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
On 10 Oct 1996, Lloyd R. Parker wrote:
>
> : Look at the Jeep Cherokees! Time and time again, people
> : take their jeep GC in because the trim and panels are barley
> : hanging on!
>
Larry H
Lloyd R. Parker
Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: :
: : country's economy -- just as bad as a shooting war?
:
: Attack? It's an attack to supply a product that Americans want to buy?
No, but it's an attack to dump goods abroad. It's an attack to treat
imports from a country one way and then cry if that country tries to
treat your exports the same way.
:
: But better handling.
A Camry has better handling than an Intrepid? A Diamante outhandles a
Taurus SHO? An Accord outhandles a Contour?
Lloyd R. Parker
Brandon Sommerville (bra...@caseware.com) wrote:
: >
: >They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
: >price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
: >Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
: >American car are stupid.
:
: Lloyd finally admits it!!!!! American cars are not as reliable as
: imports!!! Call the papers!!! Bentley, Gumby, Ron, check it out!!
:
: Brandon Sommerville
: '87 16v Scirocco
I've admitted this in the past, Brandon. American cars, while very
close, are not as reliable as Japanese cars (but do match European cars,
which I see you drive), on the average. Some, like Saturn, beat some
Japanese models, especially Mitsubishis and Mazdas. Back when American
cars would have 2 -3 times the average number of defects of a Japanese
car, this was a big deciding factor in a purchase -- one reason I owned 5
Toyotas and 2 Mazdas. Now, when the difference is a few tenths of a
defect more per car, it is a factor to be considered but not the deciding
one, for me at least. It's sort of like emissions -- when you get 99% of
the pollutants out, there's not a lot of difference among cars as to
their emission levels.
Bentley
Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@curly.cc.emory.edu) said something like:
: : Attack? It's an attack to supply a product that Americans want to buy?
:
: No, but it's an attack to dump goods abroad.
Name a vehicle that is dumped in the US. What's your favorite saying, put
up or shut up?
: It's an attack to treat
: imports from a country one way and then cry if that country tries to
: treat your exports the same way.
You mean the way the US imposes a 25% tariff on imported trucks from
Japan, but Japan has a 0% tariff on our vehicles? Let's see some examples.
Hint: Your old standby, fleet inspections, hasn't worked for years, so
let's try something new and creative.
: : But better handling.
:
: A Camry has better handling than an Intrepid? A Diamante outhandles a
: Taurus SHO? An Accord outhandles a Contour?
If you must snip the relative portion of a debate in order to try to start
some kind of flame war, then I pity you even more. Come back when you've
grown up a bit.
And for the record, yes, a Camry handles better than an Intrepid.
t...@mail.wizard.net
You make a lot of good points. I've owned a Honda Prelude, Toyota Corolla, and Nissan Altima.
I've also had a 289 4 speed Ford Mustang, Buick Rivera, Dodge Caravan, Mercury Cougar, Chev.
Conversion Van, Pontiac 6000 STE, Ford Taurus, and currently an Eagle Vision. The Toyota Corolla
was the worst car I've ever owned. I had more trouble with it than the rest of my cars combined
(10 A/C fixes, 2 trans., rust, muffler, 2 alternators, etc. and sold it with only 55K on it.
However, I do believe Toyota makes reliable cars. I just did not get one. I do not like
any of the foreign vans (too small) and while I loved my Prelude, it did not compare to the
thrill of the Mustang or my 214 HP Eagle Vision TSI. Yes, if you want a family car, the Japanese
make fine cars. But for speciality vehicles...that's something else.
Also, the USA needs to turn the trade deficit around or someday, we truly will be a 3rd rate
country.
j...@usa.pipeline.com
Bentley
Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) said something like:
: I agree with you 100%. There is no perfect car, and with the exception of
: Sweden, I can't think of a country that exports both good and bad cars. To
Gah! I meant to say, I can't think of a country that DOESN'T export both
good AND bad cars. I think it's time for me to retire, I've made about 10
of these howling errors in the past month... apologies...
B.C. Nelson
Shawn Walsh
Muskie wrote:
>
> " Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
>
> the Mcarthy era.... yet, so many americans seem stuck in that
> era. I constantly hear all these hand on heart, anthem singing
> buy-american only fools ripping apart every single thing made overseas
> or designed overseas. these are the same people that say,
> " yes! continue the embargo on Cuba! Castro(even though he is 1000
> years old) is a danger and threat to americas safety. His army is
> dangerous!". Rubbish! Or how about, " the grass was greener then,
> and we had to walk 50 miles to school in a hurricane!"
>
> Well, you loudmouth, pabst blue ribbon drinkin slobs, its the 90's!
> Wake up people! the " japs" arent out to bomb us! There are no hidden
> cars? they are the finest, quality-engineered cars and trucks in the
> they are made and designed somewhere else doesnt mean they are inferior!
> In fact, by all records and accounts, they simply destroy american
> made vehicles in quality and reliability! Just research a bit, the
> answers are all waiting for you! You may say that the American v8s tow
> more faster and easier, but what good is that when the american trucks
> overheat everytime you go up a mountain pass or rev the engine past 4
> 1/2 RPM ? At least the foreign vehicles can hold up when taken
> offroad, and the door panels and trim dont fall off when driving bumpy
> take their jeep GC in because the trim and panels are barley
> road with CRAP falling off it while everyone with a quality car laughs
> at you? Doesnt jeep think we can see the crooked trim and body panels
> when we are driving on the road and spot a jeep GC? It is an
> embarrassment to people everywhere who like quality to see
> such a pile of crap driving down the road.
>
> What about the term "japscrap" ? Anyone and everyone who uses
> that phrase most likely lives in a trailer park and has old
> refrigerators and tires laying about in the yard. They must eat'
> microwave dinners and gritz, and jump up and yell at the tv when Rambo
> finishes off the bad guys. From what I have seen, many of these folks
> inhabit the usenet, and that is very scary.
>
> " My american truck will CRUSH your japscrap truck! ", yells Vino,
> an uneducated, drunken, stained shirt and gritz eatin slob.
>
> Every night, Vino looks at the Dixie flag hanging above his bed,
> and prays for the revenge of the south. Vino is the type
> of guy who has been on the Riki lake and Carnie Wilson show.
> He dreams about a slave wife who cooks and cleans for him, while
> he gets the oil leak fixed on his dodge.
>
> sick. the times have changed Vinos! It is the 90's! You are all
> about to become dinasours, while the rest of the world passes you up
> like a 96 Toyota Supra passing a 87 Chevy Cavalier on the interstate.
> If you wish, you can hold on to your fossilized views, and sulk
> in your trailer, or you can join the rest of the modern world and strive
> forward into the 21st century.-----Muskie
Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
BAR NONE. And a very good bargin at $55,000. And if there is an
argument to be made, throw the Calloway package on it and take it beyond
650 horse and pretty much faster than anyone I know is brave enough to
drive. Just to substantiate my statement: The ZR-1 still holds the
international land speed undurance record at 181 mph, beating the next
nearest competitor, the Porsche 911 (forget the actual model) at 162
mph. That is an average taken over a 24 hour period and figured on
total distance driven. Oh, this was a stock Vette with only a
transmission cooler added (dealer installed option). This may be an
exception to the rule, still, USA #1.
Rexford T. Hound
Shawn Walsh <Shawn...@ub.com> wrote in article <325F5C...@ub.com>...
> Muskie wrote:
> >
> > " Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
> >
> > Ahhh,,, let us breath a sigh of relief for the end of
> > the Mcarthy era.... yet, so many americans seem stuck in that
> > era. I constantly hear all these hand on heart, anthem singing
> > buy-american only fools ripping apart every single thing made overseas
> > or designed overseas. these are the same people that say,
> > " yes! continue the embargo on Cuba! Castro(even though he is 1000
> > years old) is a danger and threat to americas safety. His army is
> > dangerous!". Rubbish! Or how about, " the grass was greener then,
> > and we had to walk 50 miles to school in a hurricane!"
> >
It's a pointless argument. Remember, we are Americans, we are not
responsible for our actions. We only look out for our greedy selves. Why
should we stick together and try to better our country when it's easier to
let corporate America and the Government pacify us with toys and broken
promises. Why should we stick together and fight to have taxes lowered
when it's easier to roll over and play dead? Why worry about an out of
work textile worker when the same garment can be made in a third world
country for pennies? Why worry about putting your life on the line
fighting in some foreign county for what you call democracy and coming back
sick, maimed, or dead? You know, agent orange didn't exist during Vietnam
or the Gulf War sickness our trusted government is so strongly denying now.
Oh! How wonderful it is to be free in a democratic society and make all
these wonderful choices.
I, for one, am tired of reading the label on goods to find out that it's
made somewhere other than America. Take responsibility for your actions
and stop blaming other countries for their products. If you don't like
life the way we know it now, keep on buying imports (or American made,
foreign owned) and pass the buck down to the next generation as we so
gracefully have been doing in the past..
Why even worry about it now. Our country is past the point of no return. I
want to be just like the rest of the mindless sheep out there and be part
of the decay of a country. At least, I can pat myself on the back in the
distant future and read stories to my grand-children from history books how
I participated in the fucking up and downfall of a country!!!!
Ed
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) said something like:
And to think that he has a sample size of three Saabs, far more than
needed for a good statistical analysis :-)
Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos c2...@eng.delcoelect.com or (317) 451-0815
Corporate Software Technology URL: http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~strianta
Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN '95 Saab 900S 5sp '95 Geo Prizm LSi 1.8 5sp
C. B. Kit Gerhart
The propblem with American cars is not the quality, price, or
performance. It is that American companies, huge as they are, don't
have anything to sell to people who don't want a gas hog truck, an
automatic transmission, or a front-drive transportation appliance.
Examples of gaping holes in all big three product lines.
1) Real sport sedans with rear drive and manual transmission.
2) VW golf size hatchbacks which provide a good blend of utility,
performance, and economy.
3) Rear drive anything, except sports cars and trucks, and a few other
products such as Thunderbird that are soon to be phased out.
4) Mid-size station wagons, except the Taurus and Sable which look too
weird. I realize that minivans are supposed to be a replacement
for wagons, but some people would rather have a car than a truck.
David Wei
In message <325F5C...@ub.com> - Shawn Walsh <Shawn...@ub.com> writes:
:>Ok, I'll make one statement for the US and the Heartbeat: Chevy
:>Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
:>BAR NONE.
I'm not supporting Muskie, but just offering a few corrections (if you read my
posts, you will know).
The fastest production car was Labmo Diablo at 20xMPH (forgot the last digit).
and now that honor belones to McLaren F-1 at around 230+MPH. ZR-1 is the
fastest production car made in US alright, but not the fastest production car
in the world.... And McLaren F-1 have captured 1st,3rd,4th,5th (I *think*) in
LeMans race... I wonder when will US enter again... I'd love to see something
like Indigo, Corvette, or some other cars enter the race (factory ones, not
those Callaway ones)...
===========================================================
David Wei E-Mail Address: davi...@uvic.ca
NEW!!! WWW Page: http://gulf.uvic.ca/~swei
Running under am486DX4-120 with the POWER of OS/2 Warp.
========================Team OS/2=========================
F-22's note to fighters on the "other" side:
You can hide, but you can't run.... :)
===========================================================
Ed Dybdal
Then you have a problem with Japan too because based on what you just
described there is nothing from Japan that fits that criteria.
Brad Sloan
On 12 Oct 1996, David Wei wrote:
> In message <325F5C...@ub.com> - Shawn Walsh <Shawn...@ub.com> writes:
> :>Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
> :>BAR NONE.
> posts, you will know).
> The fastest production car was Labmo Diablo at 20xMPH (forgot the last digit).
> and now that honor belones to McLaren F-1 at around 230+MPH. ZR-1 is the
You're definitely right, David. I don't know where he got this
"BAR_NONE" crap from, but he's really not even close. The Lambo and McLaren
both beat it rather handily in top speed - in addition to the F50, the
old F40, the old Jaguar XJ220, and probably even a Vector. In terms
of acceleration, the ZR1 is bettered by the new Porsche 911 Turbo, the
aforementioned Ferraris, the Jag, McLaren, and heck - the 1965 Shelby Cobra
427, just for good measure.
Brad
Bentley
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos (c2...@eng.delcoelect.com) said something like:
: : Gah! I meant to say, I can't think of a country that DOESN'T export both
: : good AND bad cars. I think it's time for me to retire, I've made about 10
: : of these howling errors in the past month... apologies...
:
: And to think that he has a sample size of three Saabs, far more than
: needed for a good statistical analysis :-)
Saad to Saay, the third Saab was a bust. Seems the VIN's/engine serial #'s
didn't match. Red light, danger Will Robinson. But, I am going to check
on a '90 325i tomorrow, will keep you informed :)
David Wei
In message <53itao$i...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> - Joseph M. Saul
<jms...@us.itd.umich.edu>10 Oct 1996 13:22:32 GMT writes:
:>Don't get suckered. If you refuse to respond to him, eventually he'll go
:>away and find something else to do.
Killfile him at first sight....
David Wei
In message <53mn0t$g...@camel1.mindspring.com> - j...@usa.pipeline.com
:>>COMMUNISM RULES!
:>
:>You Red Bastards!!!!
Nothing can preserve Liberty except downright FORCE! don't reply to him/her,
just shoot.
Stian F.Oksavik
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96101...@hubcap.clemson.edu>,
Brad Sloan <psl...@hubcap.clemson.edu> wrote:
> On 12 Oct 1996, David Wei wrote:
> > In message <325F5C...@ub.com> - Shawn Walsh <Shawn...@ub.com>
writes:
> > :>Ok, I'll make one statement for the US and the Heartbeat: Chevy
> > :>Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
> > :>BAR NONE.
> > I'm not supporting Muskie, but just offering a few corrections (if
you read my
> > posts, you will know).
> > The fastest production car was Labmo Diablo at 20xMPH (forgot the
last digit).
> > and now that honor belones to McLaren F-1 at around 230+MPH. ZR-1 is the
>
> You're definitely right, David. I don't know where he got this
> "BAR_NONE" crap from, but he's really not even close. The Lambo and McLaren
> both beat it rather handily in top speed - in addition to the F50, the
> old F40, the old Jaguar XJ220, and probably even a Vector. In terms
> of acceleration, the ZR1 is bettered by the new Porsche 911 Turbo, the
> aforementioned Ferraris, the Jag, McLaren, and heck - the 1965 Shelby Cobra
> 427, just for good measure.
>
> Brad
There was this guy in Arizona who made his Chevy Impala go 350mph. He did
that by attaching a solid fuel rocket to it, though, so that doesn't
really count as a production car I guess.
(Apparently, the guy managed to kill himself in the process - I wouldn't
be surprised if this turns out to be an urban legend, but people do the
stupidest things..)
Stian F.Oksavik
Well, Japan does have some of the VW Golf-size hatchbacks. The only
problem with Japanese cars (as well as most modern American cars,
unfortunately) is that they're just no fun to drive. (That is, of course,
IMHO)
-Stian (currently in the market for a huge, American gas guzzler ;-)
Brad Sloan
On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Stian F.Oksavik wrote:
> There was this guy in Arizona who made his Chevy Impala go 350mph. He did
> that by attaching a solid fuel rocket to it, though, so that doesn't
> really count as a production car I guess.
> (Apparently, the guy managed to kill himself in the process - I wouldn't
Yeah, I read about this somewhere. No, rocket boosters don't count.
They don't have to obey the same rules that their wheel-powered
counterparts do (see the long discussion on whether or not an F50 could
go 200 mph on ice). I imagine at ~200 mph, the Impala got pretty much
airborne. Poor, stupid guy.
Brad
Joel Furtek
In article <53menh$n...@news.cais.com>
t...@mail.wizard.net writes:
> You make a lot of good points. I've owned a Honda Prelude, Toyota Corolla, and Nissan Altima.
> I've also had a 289 4 speed Ford Mustang, Buick Rivera, Dodge Caravan, Mercury Cougar, Chev.
> Conversion Van, Pontiac 6000 STE, Ford Taurus, and currently an Eagle Vision. The Toyota Corolla
> was the worst car I've ever owned. I had more trouble with it than the rest of my cars combined
> (10 A/C fixes, 2 trans., rust, muffler, 2 alternators, etc. and sold it with only 55K on it.
> However, I do believe Toyota makes reliable cars. I just did not get one. I do not like
Tom,
Just curious, but was it a post-84 corolla, maybe made at the NUMMI plant? The
two '80s I've owned have been remarkably reliable - and fun, for a little
four-banger.
JOel
'80 Toyota Corolla (2) 135k/145k
'84 Toyota Van 199k
'90 Toyota 2WD pickup 91k
'84 Chevy K20 Suburban w/6.2l 145k
----------------------------------------
Joel Furtek
Head Coach, Novice Women's Crew
Graduate Program in Exercise Physiology
The University of Virginia
Nathan Ryan Gingras
Lloyd writes:
: >They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
: >less room and power. It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
: >price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
: >Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
What is value? Buying a car for $15,000 and having it break down all the
time, look like crap, and in 5 years sell for $2500? (American Car)
Or, buying a car for $20,000, having it run for 150,000 miles without any
major problems, look better, and run better, and sell for $10,000 in 5 years?
(Import Car)
You Decide.
s
: >American car are stupid.
: ^
Yes, they are.
Nate.
'81 BMW 528i
'86 Audi Coupe GT
'81 BMW 320is
Aardwolf
N. Wicker wrote:
> Nope guys' it's true. In fact the car ( and driver I imagine) were found
> scattered over a mile. He got a solid fuel rocket and attached it to the
> roof ( add to the down force) and awayyyyyyyy he went....literally it's
> unfortunate, but true.>
Perhaps someone has done something siimilar, but this particular story
has been proven a myth for a long time. And the speeds involved have gone
up too, first it was 250mph, then 350, then 500, last I heard it was MACH
1! And that was unfortunately printed in Road and Track. MACH1--yeah
right, that's a physical imopssibility, the vehicle wasn't built to handle
stress like that and would have disintegrated long before that. If Chuck
Yeager wanted to break the speed of sound why didn't he just strap a JATO
booster on a Chevy then? ;-)
Aardwolf.
Aardwolf
> My American truck will CRUSH your japscrap truck! ", yells Vino,
> an uneducated, drunken, stained shirt and gritz eatin slob.
>
> Every night, Vino looks at the Dixie flag hanging above his bed,
> and prays for the revenge of the south. Vino is the type
> of guy who has been on the Riki lake and Carnie Wilson show.
> He dreams about a slave wife who cooks and cleans for him, while
> he gets the oil leak fixed on his dodge.
>
I liked the one about the guy who's teeth matched the green shade of his
vehicle's upholstery better. ;-)
Aardwolf.
bee...@pirate.tiac.net
On 10 Oct 1996 07:49:30 GMT, mi...@mail.ntsource.com (Muskie) wrote:
> " Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
Hey muskrat:
Why don't you take this thread to like alt.test or something. Cause
personally, I don't give a rats a** what you drive or how f*****G good
it is. This IS A MUSTANG ENTHUSIASTS NEWSGROUP not a place to post
inane babble about mobile homes, pabst beer or the quality of nissans
so why don't you take you and your 8088 computer w/ the 1200 bps
modem, get into your nissanota or whatever, and drive off a F*****G
cliff!
Paul Postal
Big Red Dog
'87 lx 5.0 (roadrace ready)
'85 gt 351W conversion (bye bye bowtie)
'87 Ford E-350 van (this baby ain't rockin when I'm f***in!)
'76 Lincoln Town Coupe (wanna go to the prom baby!)
N. Wicker
Email: nwi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Stian F.Oksavik wrote:
> >
> > Brad
>
> There was this guy in Arizona who made his Chevy Impala go 350mph. He did
> that by attaching a solid fuel rocket to it, though, so that doesn't
> really count as a production car I guess.
> (Apparently, the guy managed to kill himself in the process - I wouldn't
> be surprised if this turns out to be an urban legend, but people do the
> stupidest things..)
>
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: : And to think that he has a sample size of three Saabs, far more than
: : needed for a good statistical analysis :-)
:
: Saad to Saay, the third Saab was a bust. Seems the VIN's/engine serial #'s
: didn't match. Red light, danger Will Robinson. But, I am going to check
: on a '90 325i tomorrow, will keep you informed :)
A G-G-German car? Has Ryan spiked your food with neural transmitter
inhibitors that block out all the Teutonic fun we had?
Can't wait for the 'VW Passat GLX vs. BMW 325i' thread...
Steve Sheldon
In article <53rqd5$n...@uwm.edu>, he...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Nathan Ryan Gingras) wrote:
>Lloyd writes:
>
>: >They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
>: >less room and power. It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
>: >price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
>: >Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
>
>What is value? Buying a car for $15,000 and having it break down all the
>time, look like crap, and in 5 years sell for $2500? (American Car)
Could you give a more specific example of this?
I went through the newspaper and was not able to find any used American cars
only 5 years old for only $2500. I had to go back to 10 year old models.
>Or, buying a car for $20,000, having it run for 150,000 miles without any
>major problems, look better, and run better, and sell for $10,000 in 5 years?
>(Import Car)
I'd like a more specific example of this as well.
John Weir
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos (c2...@eng.delcoelect.com) wrote:
: Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: : : And to think that he has a sample size of three Saabs, far more than
: : : needed for a good statistical analysis :-)
: :
: : Saad to Saay, the third Saab was a bust. Seems the VIN's/engine serial #'s
: : didn't match. Red light, danger Will Robinson. But, I am going to check
: : on a '90 325i tomorrow, will keep you informed :)
: A G-G-German car? Has Ryan spiked your food with neural transmitter
: inhibitors that block out all the Teutonic fun we had?
: Can't wait for the 'VW Passat GLX vs. BMW 325i' thread...
Yea, no kidding!
They should be the stars on a new soap: "As Your Stomach Turns".
Or a new movie: "Road Annoyers".
Actually, "Mission Impossible" might apply here too!
Yo-han
Lloyd R. Parker
Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@curly.cc.emory.edu) said something like:
: : : Attack? It's an attack to supply a product that Americans want to buy?
: :
: : No, but it's an attack to dump goods abroad.
:
: Name a vehicle that is dumped in the US. What's your favorite saying, put
: up or shut up?
A couple of years ago, the Commerce Dept. found that Japanese minivans
were being dumped. They didn't impose any penalties because the sales
were so low, they said the practice didn't hurt American sales.
:
: : It's an attack to treat
: : imports from a country one way and then cry if that country tries to
: : treat your exports the same way.
:
: You mean the way the US imposes a 25% tariff on imported trucks from
: Japan, but Japan has a 0% tariff on our vehicles? Let's see some examples.
The Japanese just impose such regulations, inspections, etc., that the
price jumps up far more than 25%.
:
: Hint: Your old standby, fleet inspections, hasn't worked for years, so
: let's try something new and creative.
Bzzzt. Most imports to Japan still haven't been type certified. But
let's say you're right. My favorite solution is what Tom Clancy had in
"Debt of Honor": Let's impose EXACTLY the same laws on imports from
Japan as Japan imposes on imports from the US. What could be more fair?
I bet the Japanese could complain loud and long if we did this.
Lloyd R. Parker
Nathan Ryan Gingras (he...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: Lloyd writes:
:
: : >They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
: : >less room and power. It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
: : >price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
: : >Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
:
: What is value? Buying a car for $15,000 and having it break down all the
: time, look like crap, and in 5 years sell for $2500? (American Car)
Well, if you can't afford that extra $5000 up front, yes, this is
better. If you can afford an American car with ABS vs an import without
it, yes, this is better. You don't get the resale back until you sell it
5 years later. Doesn't help at all with the initial purchase.
:
: Or, buying a car for $20,000, having it run for 150,000 miles without any
: major problems, look better, and run better, and sell for $10,000 in 5 years?
: (Import Car)
:
Fact: Most people do not keep their cars for 150,000 miles. Short term
reliability is more important to them, and now much of that is under
warranty.
Fact: Figured as a percentage of MSRP, American cars are as good as, if
not better than, comparable imports on resale value. For example, using
average trade-in values for 93 and 94 models in the 95 NADA Official Used
Car Guide, a Dodge Intrepid retains a higher % of its value than an
Accord or Camry.
Nathan Ryan Gingras
Steve Sheldon (she...@visi.com) wrote:
: In article <53rqd5$n...@uwm.edu>, he...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Nathan Ryan Gingras) wrote:
: >Lloyd writes:
: >
: >: >They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
: >: >less room and power. It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
: >: >price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
: >: >Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
: >
: >What is value? Buying a car for $15,000 and having it break down all the
: >time, look like crap, and in 5 years sell for $2500? (American Car)
: Could you give a more specific example of this?
:
: I went through the newspaper and was not able to find any used American cars
: only 5 years old for only $2500. I had to go back to 10 year old models.
: >Or, buying a car for $20,000, having it run for 150,000 miles without any
: >major problems, look better, and run better, and sell for $10,000 in 5 years?
: >(Import Car)
:
The figures were intentionally blown out of proportion to clearly
illustrate my point that just because something is cheaper doesnt make it
a better value.
Nate.
Mike Kohlbrenner
Shawn Walsh wrote:
>
> Ok, I'll make one statement for the US and the Heartbeat: Chevy
> Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
> BAR NONE.
Wrong... (and by ANY definition -- acceleration, top speed, etc.)
> And a very good bargain at $55,000.
Subjective, but we can let that one ride...
> And if there is an
> argument to be made, throw the Calloway package on it and take it beyond
> 650 horse and pretty much faster than anyone I know is brave enough to
> drive.
Then it is no longer a production car...
> Just to substantiate my statement: The ZR-1 still holds the
> international land speed undurance record at 181 mph, beating the next
> nearest competitor, the Porsche 911 (forget the actual model) at 162
> mph. That is an average taken over a 24 hour period and figured on
> total distance driven. Oh, this was a stock Vette with only a
> transmission cooler added (dealer installed option).
Have you considered that perhaps the Vette owns this record merely because
no one in a faster car has endeavored to attempt to break it?
Oh, and BTW, I thought they also diddled with the gear ratios for that run.
--
Mike Kohlbrenner
<kohl...@an.hp.com>
Chris
In article <325F5C...@ub.com>, Shawn...@ub.com wrote:
> Muskie wrote:
SNIP RANT
.-----Muskie
> Ok, I'll make one statement for the US and the Heartbeat: Chevy
> Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
> BAR NONE. And a very good bargin at $55,000. And if there is an
> argument to be made, throw the Calloway package on it and take it beyond
> 650 horse and pretty much faster than anyone I know is brave enough to
> drive. Just to substantiate my statement: The ZR-1 still holds the
> international land speed undurance record at 181 mph, beating the next
> nearest competitor, the Porsche 911 (forget the actual model) at 162
> mph. That is an average taken over a 24 hour period and figured on
> total distance driven. Oh, this was a stock Vette with only a
> transmission cooler added (dealer installed option). This may be an
> exception to the rule, still, USA #1.
Hmmmm? The stock ZR-1 of a few years ago was faster than the normally
aspirated Porsche of that year, but since the newest iteration of the 911
Turbo came out, I doubt any stock Vette could catch it. Current Supra
Turbos are in that range (180), and I thought the Acura NSX was also...
but most of the people I know who can buy whatever they want buy
Porsches. Sure, they are more expensive than the Vette, but they last
longer, are stiffer framed, and generally more refined... not to mention
the fact that the current 993 body is an absolute work of art.
--
King of the Impulse Buyers
Chris
In article <01bbb847$b74100e0$2fcdb7c7@sinca>, "Rexford T. Hound"
<****@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Shawn Walsh <Shawn...@ub.com> wrote in article <325F5C...@ub.com>...
> > Muskie wrote:
> > >
> > > " Are you a communist? Have you ever been a communist? "
> > >
> > > Ahhh,,, let us breath a sigh of relief for the end of
> > > the Mcarthy era.... yet, so many americans seem stuck in that
> > > era. I constantly hear all these hand on heart, anthem singing
> > > buy-american only fools ripping apart every single thing made overseas
> > > or designed overseas. these are the same people that say,
> > > " yes! continue the embargo on Cuba! Castro(even though he is 1000
> > > years old) is a danger and threat to americas safety. His army is
> > > dangerous!". Rubbish! Or how about, " the grass was greener then,
> > > and we had to walk 50 miles to school in a hurricane!"
> > >
> It's a pointless argument. Remember, we are Americans, we are not
> responsible for our actions. We only look out for our greedy selves. Why
> should we stick together and try to better our country when it's easier to
> let corporate America and the Government pacify us with toys and broken
> promises. Why should we stick together and fight to have taxes lowered
> when it's easier to roll over and play dead? Why worry about an out of
> work textile worker when the same garment can be made in a third world
> country for pennies? Why worry about putting your life on the line
> fighting in some foreign county for what you call democracy and coming back
> sick, maimed, or dead? You know, agent orange didn't exist during Vietnam
> or the Gulf War sickness our trusted government is so strongly denying now.
> Oh! How wonderful it is to be free in a democratic society and make all
> these wonderful choices.
>
> I, for one, am tired of reading the label on goods to find out that it's
> made somewhere other than America. Take responsibility for your actions
> and stop blaming other countries for their products. If you don't like
> life the way we know it now, keep on buying imports (or American made,
> foreign owned) and pass the buck down to the next generation as we so
> gracefully have been doing in the past..
>
> Why even worry about it now. Our country is past the point of no return. I
> want to be just like the rest of the mindless sheep out there and be part
> of the decay of a country. At least, I can pat myself on the back in the
> distant future and read stories to my grand-children from history books how
> I participated in the fucking up and downfall of a country!!!!
>
>
Uh, what does this have to do with autos?
Robert Hammond
In article <53i9qa$p...@nemesis.ntsource.com>,
mi...@mail.ntsource.com (Muskie) wrote:
snipped out all that delusional B.S.
Look, maybe some therapy would help you get over your
paranoia about american-made cars. Can't hurt.
Rob
C. B. Kit Gerhart
In article <326021...@earthlink.net>,
Ed Dybdal <ed...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>C. B. Kit Gerhart wrote:
>>
>> The propblem with American cars is not the quality, price, or
>> performance. It is that American companies, huge as they are,
don't
>> have anything to sell to people who don't want a gas hog truck, an
>> automatic transmission, or a front-drive transportation appliance.
>>
>> Examples of gaping holes in all big three product lines.
>>
>> 1) Real sport sedans with rear drive and manual transmission.
>> 2) VW golf size hatchbacks which provide a good blend of utility,
>> performance, and economy.
>> 3) Rear drive anything, except sports cars and trucks, and a few
other
>> products such as Thunderbird that are soon to be phased out.
>> 4) Mid-size station wagons, except the Taurus and Sable which look
too
>> weird. I realize that minivans are supposed to be a replacement
>> for wagons, but some people would rather have a car than a
truck.
>
>Then you have a problem with Japan too because based on what you just
>described there is nothing from Japan that fits that criteria.
I'd have to nearly agree with you, but not completely. There are no
Japanese sport sedans that meet the criteria in 1 above. There are,
however, some decent looking wagons. The Accord and Subaru Legacy come
to mind, though they are smaller than Taurus/Sable. Accord is even
available with a manual trans. There are state of the art, though
pricey, rear-drive sedans from Japan such as LS400 and Q45. The Civic
hatchback is still available, but is not as roomy as a Golf, and Honda
only has one trim/performance level available.
Rexford T. Hound
Everything, please forgive me if I didn't break it down to comparing car
make and model to car make and model. I know if I don't mention a Corvette
ZR1 or a Datsun the above statement may escape the grasp of some people.
Let's go up to the black board not the Sega Genesis and try to break it
down into simple terms. Let's say you are an average American working in
an average job making $15.00 an hour and some CEO puts together a spread
sheet that shows he can replace Joe Blow American with Pedro, who will
gracefully work for $15.00 dollars a DAY!!! And you happen to be one the
poor souls with the name Joe Blow American on the outside looking in. Are
you prepared to start a new job tomorrow making the same salary you did
before you got laid off?? I hope so. You' will need it to pay for all them
imported toys you bought to pacify yourself. Look at yourself as a brand
new state of the art computer system with a 200 MHz Pentium Pro inside
today. Now, come back in a year when your replaced with the new latest and
greatest. I have seen too many people loose their jobs to imports. Who
cares, they are all expendable.
Now ask yourself "Uh, what does this have to do with autos?" when the
Repo Man has your car. Maybe by then you would have figured out what this
have to do with autos. Good luck.
The Hound
rai...@sover.net
lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu (Lloyd R. Parker) wrote:
>Nathan Ryan Gingras (he...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
>: Lloyd writes:
>:
>: : >They also cost more than comparable American cars, and typically have
>: : >less room and power. It's a trade-off -- do you value room, power, and
>: : >price more, or reliability more? Some prefer one, some the other.
>: : >Doesn't mean the ones opting for the power, room, and value of the
>:
>: What is value? Buying a car for $15,000 and having it break down all the
>: time, look like crap, and in 5 years sell for $2500? (American Car)
>Well, if you can't afford that extra $5000 up front, yes, this is
>better. If you can afford an American car with ABS vs an import without
>it, yes, this is better. You don't get the resale back until you sell it
>5 years later. Doesn't help at all with the initial purchase.
>:
>: Or, buying a car for $20,000, having it run for 150,000 miles without any
>: major problems, look better, and run better, and sell for $10,000 in 5 years?
>: (Import Car)
>:
>Fact: Most people do not keep their cars for 150,000 miles. Short term
>reliability is more important to them, and now much of that is under
>warranty.
>Fact: Figured as a percentage of MSRP, American cars are as good as, if
>not better than, comparable imports on resale value. For example, using
>average trade-in values for 93 and 94 models in the 95 NADA Official Used
>Car Guide, a Dodge Intrepid retains a higher % of its value than an
>Accord or Camry.
When that Intrepid is 6 years old (or more) it's resale value will be
considerably less than an Accord or Camry of the same age. Besides,
with cars so expensive now its rather costly to sell after 2 or 3
years, don't you think? Most people don't sell their cars when they
are 2-3 years old, the resale value later in the car's life is more
important than when its still relatively new. It's when the domestic
cars get older that the resale value goes down the toilet.
David A. Lyons
On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, B.C. Nelson wrote:
> COMMUNISM RULES!
It sure does. It rules YOU.
David Lyons
http://g50mc.org/members/lyonsd
Fire the Liar: Clinton/Gone '96
N. Wicker
Email: nwi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
On 15 Oct 1996, GOLDEN MIKE A wrote:
> Shawn Walsh (Shawn...@ub.com) wrote:
> : exception to the rule, still, USA #1.
>
> Amen. On my way to work I saw two brand new bright red Corvettes pulling
> out of an on ramp onto the interstate driving in formation. Had to be
> one of the most beautiful sights I have seen in a while. What a work of
> mechanical art. I have yet to see any foreign car under $100K that
> evokes that kind of response. Am I the only one that thinks that Porsche
> 911s are UGLY? And SLOW!?!?
>
> Mike Golden
> '81 Buick Regal, Chevy 355, TH400, Holley 750DP, Paxton S/C, 9" Ford
>
Well, Mike, you're not the ONLY one, there are probably a few more, but
not as many as those of us who think that Porsche is a rolling
masterwork...a continuing Magnum Opus for Dr. Porsche and the Porsche
family. In fact, the only thing truly cool to roll out of Germany in
almost 60 yrs. I do think that the 60's -71 and 90-97 vettes are nice
looking autos. The Stingray convert probably the best all around package
for MY money. The only problem with the Vettes is that I find them not as
'tight' as one would expect a car of this caliber to be. It has "noises"
at speed and takes uneven surfaces with the same stability of a log
rolling down a brick road. That's my opinion. I do like the look though,
I think my parents (mid-late 50's) would look good in one. Me...I'll
stick with my 300zx,360hp(small upgrades) 'Pull me over cause you KNOW I
was speeding'ultra red BADBOY. My 20 yr old Wagoneer(250hp, 320lb.-ft.
torque) has been known to smoke a few Vettes...at least in the first 50
or so feet.....
......Cars are cars, beauty is in variety.......
Jack Goff
rai...@sover.net wrote:
>When that Intrepid is 6 years old (or more) it's resale value will be
>considerably less than an Accord or Camry of the same age. Besides,
>with cars so expensive now its rather costly to sell after 2 or 3
>years, don't you think? Most people don't sell their cars when they
>are 2-3 years old, the resale value later in the car's life is more
>important than when its still relatively new. It's when the domestic
>cars get older that the resale value goes down the toilet.
The fact that Japanese cars are bringing good prices even after 5 or 6
years has generally been true in the past few years, but don't forget
that the yen to dollar exchange rate has also increased, artificially
inflating the Japanese car's resale value. When you pay 15,000 for a
car, then 2 -3 years later the same car cost 20,000 new, the older
car's resale goes up.
American cars have increased in price, but nearly as much and not for
the same reason.
Jack
Joseph Krenson
In article <53urqh$6...@darla.visi.com>, she...@visi.com (Steve Sheldon) writes:
> Let's say after 5 years the $20k car is worth 50% of it's value, and the $15k
> car is worth 40% of it's value.
> $20,000 * .5 = $10,000 and $15,000 * .4 = $6,000
>
> The typical American consumer is going to be financing their car, and let's
> assume that this imaginary buyer has similar incomes.
>
> $20,000 over 5 years at 9% = $415/month
> Total expenditure is $24,909
> $15,000 over 5 years at 9% = $312/month
> Total expenditure is $18,682
>
> So that gives the person with the $15k car an extra $100 to invest a
> month.Let's stick it in a conservative fund earning 9% as well.
> So socking away $100 a month over 5 years at 9% yields us $7,473.
> So let's total this up, shall we?
> purchase price total cost total return loss
> The "import" $20,000 $24,909 $10,000 $14909
> The "domestic" $15,000 $18,682 $13,473 $5209
This is a very good way of looking at the problem, BUT (there usually
is) you didn't factor in the repair costs which were the reason the
original person choose the $20k import.
Also, let's figure that each buyer had brand loyalty and that the
previous cars were 25% cheaper, or $15k and $11,250. Using your
residual values, the trade-ins are worth and $7,500 and $4,500.
Therefore, the $20k loan is really only $12,500 and the $15k loan is
really $10,500. This kind of *screws up* your numbers.
Amazing the things you can figure using common sense. :-)
--
Joseph Krenson |
Simulation Engineer/Vehicle Electronics | Don't take life too seriously,
(317)451-0854 | it's not permanent.
jkre...@eng.delcoelect.com |
Bentley
Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) said something like:
: it, yes, this is better. You don't get the resale back until you sell it
It does if you lease.
: Fact: Figured as a percentage of MSRP, American cars are as good as, if
: not better than, comparable imports on resale value. For example, using
: average trade-in values for 93 and 94 models in the 95 NADA Official Used
: Car Guide, a Dodge Intrepid retains a higher % of its value than an
: Accord or Camry.
Not true. Not even close, in fact.
Devon Williams
In article <5403i0$9...@koptsm06.delcoelect.com>, jkre...@mail.delcoelect.com (Joseph Krenson) says:
>This is a very good way of looking at the problem, BUT (there usually
>is) you didn't factor in the repair costs which were the reason the
>original person choose the $20k import.
1. Financial analysis is a GREAT way to look at a financial
problem (I don't know what color the sky is in your world, buddy,
but it's BLUE here...). In fact, it's the only RESPONSIBLE method.
2. Considering the ~$9000 dollar loss differential (that's what cars
are, a financial loss to be minimized), that's *far* more than these
vehicles will differ in the aggregate on repair costs. Really.
>Also, let's figure that each buyer had brand loyalty and that the
>previous cars were 25% cheaper, or $15k and $11,250. Using your
>residual values, the trade-ins are worth and $7,500 and $4,500.
>Therefore, the $20k loan is really only $12,500 and the $15k loan is
>really $10,500. This kind of *screws up* your numbers.
Your analysis shifts the boundary forward, and is horrendously
incomplete in failing to account for the significant amount of
money the domestic customers saved on the *first* car, i.e.,
what you treat as the trade-in. THAT kind of screws up your
screwed-up numbers. Additionally, neither analysis accounts for
sales tax differential, nor do your 'new' numbers result in a gain
for the import substantial enough to put it over thew top with
the maintenance/repair cost differential. Get real.....
>Amazing the things you can figure using common sense. :-)
Shame you don't seem to exercise much.
>Joseph Krenson
Devon Williams
Bentley
: :
: : Name a vehicle that is dumped in the US. What's your favorite saying, put
: : up or shut up?
:
: A couple of years ago, the Commerce Dept. found that Japanese minivans
: were being dumped. They didn't impose any penalties because the sales
: were so low, they said the practice didn't hurt American sales.
So, you don't know of any products being dumped on the US right now?
Care to compare the cost of Passats and A4's in the US vs in Germany?
Funny, I don't see any references to us being at 'war' with Germany....
care to explain?
: : You mean the way the US imposes a 25% tariff on imported trucks from
: : Japan, but Japan has a 0% tariff on our vehicles? Let's see some examples.
:
: The Japanese just impose such regulations, inspections, etc., that the
: price jumps up far more than 25%.
Such as...?
: : Hint: Your old standby, fleet inspections, hasn't worked for years, so
: : let's try something new and creative.
:
: Bzzzt. Most imports to Japan still haven't been type certified.
You are correct that the models that have not yet been certified have not
been certified. No sh**.
But
: let's say you're right. My favorite solution is what Tom Clancy had in
: "Debt of Honor": Let's impose EXACTLY the same laws on imports from
: Japan as Japan imposes on imports from the US. What could be more fair?
: I bet the Japanese could complain loud and long if we did this.
Since we have more requirements for imports than Japan does, this is a
pretty stupid arguement.
And let's not forget what the results of that action in DoH led to...
Funny how you focus so much on Japanese barriers, but never the european
ones.
WildBTK
And just what happened to those Cobra owners out there? 429 big-block power not good enough for ya? [grin]
Come'on! Hehehehehe...
To date, I don't think there has been a faster production car than the Cobra. I don't think the ZR-1 is in the
same league.
This coming from an individual that is planning to purchase a Dodge Ram with the 8.0L v10 engine (300hp, 450ft
lbs). I can't wait! I can't wait!
--
================================================================
E-mail address: wil...@nm-us.campus.mci.net ... what a handful!
================================================================
Mike Kohlbrenner
Rexford T. Hound wrote:
>
> ... Let's say you are an average American working in
> an average job making $15.00 an hour and some CEO puts together a spread
> sheet that shows he can replace Joe Blow American with Pedro, who will
> gracefully work for $15.00 dollars a DAY!!! And you happen to be one the
> poor souls with the name Joe Blow American on the outside looking in. Are
> you prepared to start a new job tomorrow making the same salary you did
> before you got laid off?? I hope so. You' will need it to pay for all them
> imported toys you bought to pacify yourself.
I have a couple of questions.
If all of the above is true, why is it that folks in the U.S. are still buying
"imported" vehicles even though they tend to cost MORE on average?
Don't you consider it a bit ironic that folks in the U.S., the home of the
free market, are so hung up on protectionist measures?
If the imported vehicle sales were never a threat back in the seventies and
eighties, do you really think that the "Big 3" would have implemented the
significant advances in value and quality that we are now beginning to see?
I bought a Honda back in 1990 because it was the best car for me at that
time. We bought another Honda this year because it was the best car for us
at that time. We shopped at the Big 3 dealerships, but frankly, nothing
compared. I was sad because I would like to support Detroit, but at the
same time, I was happy because they have come a long way since 1990. Maybe
I'll be able to buy one the next time around.
Now before you go off calling me some sort of Commie or something, remember
what it really means to be a capitalist. Free market. Competition. Value
for your money.
Personally, I find it rather chauvinistic that so many U.S. citizens feel
that the free market ends at their borders. It is such a "screw everyone
else" attitude.
My belief is that if we all wrapped ourselves up in the stars & stripes and
"bought American" regardless of quality or value, in the long run, we would
all lose. There would be no motivation for change and the quality of the
U.S. made products would continue in the downward trend that was evident in
previous decades. Where would we end up? I shudder to think.
No, we should not adopt protectionist measures. We should wake the hell up
and COMPETE, dammit! That's what made the U.S. great back in the good ole'
days -- let's do it again.
I, for one, already see it happening. And yes, I am proud of it.
--
Mike Kohlbrenner
<kohl...@an.hp.com>
Bill and Dawn
On 15 Oct 1996 03:53:50 -0500, mgo...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (GOLDEN MIKE
A) wrote:
--snip--
> Am I the only one that thinks that Porsche
>911s are UGLY? And SLOW!?!?
--snip--
i doubt you are the only one but i don't think they are ugly or slow.
slow is a relative term however....;-)
disclaimer: Corvettes do look nice too.
laters,
Bill and Dawn '94 Ford Bronco XLT
'93 Mazda MX-3
Mike Kohlbrenner
Devon Williams wrote:
>
> 1. Financial analysis is a GREAT way to look at a financial
> problem (I don't know what color the sky is in your world, buddy,
> but it's BLUE here...). In fact, it's the only RESPONSIBLE method.
True, but this is more than a financial problem. Has everyone forgotten
that while imports may cost more, people are willing to pay more? Why?
Because they like them.
Further, I think saying that a comparison between a 20K import and a
15K domestic is a good example of today's auto market is a little bit
farfetched. You can compare a 20K Accord/Camry to an 18K Cirrus/Contour,
but you're smokin' hemp if you think you can get a comparable domestic for
15K these days. If you don't believe me, go do some shopping for yourself.
Finally, if COST is the determining factor, why are we even talking about
NEW cars? Granted, with the advent of high resale values, the benefit is
no longer as great, but the cost per mile in a 2-3 year old vehicle
is still better than a new car as far as I know.
--
Mike Kohlbrenner
<kohl...@an.hp.com>
Gumby
Ed Dybdal <ed...@earthlink.net> writes...
>C. B. Kit Gerhart wrote:
>> The propblem with American cars is not the quality, price, or
>> performance. It is that American companies, huge as they are, don't
>> have anything to sell to people who don't want a gas hog truck, an
>> automatic transmission, or a front-drive transportation appliance.
>> Examples of gaping holes in all big three product lines.
>> 1) Real sport sedans with rear drive and manual transmission.
>> 2) VW golf size hatchbacks which provide a good blend of utility,
>> performance, and economy.
>> 3) Rear drive anything, except sports cars and trucks, and a few other
>> products such as Thunderbird that are soon to be phased out.
>> 4) Mid-size station wagons, except the Taurus and Sable which look too
>> weird. I realize that minivans are supposed to be a replacement
>> for wagons, but some people would rather have a car than a truck.
>Then you have a problem with Japan too because based on what you just
>described there is nothing from Japan that fits that criteria.
What's the American competitor to the 626-V6 5-sp? Maxima 5-sp? Legacy
GT 5-sp?
The Mazda MX-3 V6 was a "hot hatch" but I can't think of any that would
compare to a Golf that are in production. But, since the Golf V-6
doesn't sell well, the problem seems to be more of a lack of interest
by the consumers than the manufacturers see no need to fill.
GS300 LS400 SC300 SC400 Maxima I30 J30 Q45 are all RWD cars that aren't
sports cars. There also is the Catera that the U.S. has as a new entry
to fight in that market.
Legacy wagon, Accord wagon, Camry wagon (are the Accord and Camry wagons
still in production?)
Marc
David Wei
In message <3261C1...@itis.com> - Aardwolf <se1...@itis.com>Sun, 13 Oct
1996 22:27:43 -0600 writes:
:>If Chuck
:>Yeager wanted to break the speed of sound why didn't he just strap a JATO
:>booster on a Chevy then? ;-)
I think Chuck prefers to get supersonic when he is at least 5000ft off the
ground.... instead of taking off at the end of the cliff and smash into the
other side... <G>
===========================================================
David Wei E-Mail Address: davi...@uvic.ca
NEW!!! WWW Page: http://gulf.uvic.ca/~swei
Running under am486DX4-120 with the POWER of OS/2 Warp.
========================Team OS/2=========================
F-22's note to fighters on the "other" side:
You can hide, but you can't run.... :)
===========================================================
Gumby
lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu (Lloyd R. Parker) writes...
>Bzzzt. Most imports to Japan still haven't been type certified. But
>let's say you're right. My favorite solution is what Tom Clancy had in
>"Debt of Honor": Let's impose EXACTLY the same laws on imports from
>Japan as Japan imposes on imports from the US. What could be more fair?
>I bet the Japanese could complain loud and long if we did this.
It would be too risky. When Europe forbade trade with England in an attempt
to control it, it ended up backfiring on Europe.
I'd trust nonfiction above fiction.
Marc
Dennis Z Kuo
Rexford T. Hound (****@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Let's go up to the black board not the Sega Genesis and try to break it
: down into simple terms. Let's say you are an average American working in
: an average job making $15.00 an hour and some CEO puts together a spread
: sheet that shows he can replace Joe Blow American with Pedro, who will
: gracefully work for $15.00 dollars a DAY!!! And you happen to be one the
: poor souls with the name Joe Blow American on the outside looking in. Are
: you prepared to start a new job tomorrow making the same salary you did
: before you got laid off?? I hope so. You' will need it to pay for all them
: imported toys you bought to pacify yourself.
(snip)
: Now ask yourself "Uh, what does this have to do with autos?" when the
: Repo Man has your car. Maybe by then you would have figured out what this
: have to do with autos. Good luck.
So who do you support? The companies that have been closing plants in
the U.S. and opening up plants in Mexico and Canada, or the companies
that have been opening up plants in the United States and employing
American workers?
I don't like the mentality that many large corporations have--take away
the jobs from American workers, give them to cheap overseas labor, and
watch the CEO take home $15 million a year. But at the average consumer
level, I think the issue is a lot more complicated than buying based on a
nameplate, especially since so much of our goods are made overseas--autos
and non-autos--today.
--
Dennis Kuo | University of Pennsylvania
ku...@mail.med.upenn.edu | School of Medicine, Class of '97
home page NOW (sort of) running: http://mail.med.upenn.edu/~kuod
--(this line for rent)--
Jim Sun
The morale of the story is, don't buy a car at all, or at least
nor anything better than a Hyundai; because, any money you put into
a car has a negative interest appreciation, whereas money you otherwise
crank throu M$ Money have positive appreciations.
it's a neat world in the eyes of bean counters, isn't it?
Jim
In article <53urqh$6...@darla.visi.com>, she...@visi.com (Steve Sheldon) writes:
|> Oh, I don't really care much, but this is fun.
|>
|> In article <53tlnk$3...@uwm.edu>, he...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Nathan Ryan Gingras)
|> Oh, ok... So let's take your $15k and $20k examples and exagerrate them a lot
|> less, using some semi-realistic values.
|>
|> Let's say after 5 years the $20k car is worth 50% of it's value, and the $15k
|> car is worth 40% of it's value.
|>
|> $20,000 * .5 = $10,000
|> $15,000 * .4 = $6,000
|>
|> The typical American consumer is going to be financing their car, and let's
|> assume that this imaginary buyer has similar incomes.
|>
|> $20,000 over 5 years at 9% = $415/month
|> Total expenditure is $24,909
|>
|> $15,000 over 5 years at 9% = $312/month
|> Total expenditure is $18,682
|>
|> So that gives the person with the $15k car an extra $100 to invest a
|> month.Let's stick it in a conservative fund earning 9% as well.
|>
|> So socking away $100 a month over 5 years at 9% yields us $7,473.
|>
|> So let's total this up, shall we?
|>
|> purchase price total cost total return loss
|> The "import" $20,000 $24,909 $10,000 $14909
|> The "domestic" $15,000 $18,682 $13,473 $5209
|>
|>
|> It's amazine the tools you find in Microsoft Money 95 investment planner.
|>
Dean B.
> Ok, I'll make one statement for the US and the Heartbeat: Chevy
> Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
> BAR NONE. And a very good bargin at $55,000. And if there is an
> argument to be made, throw the Calloway package on it and take it beyond
> 650 horse and pretty much faster than anyone I know is brave enough to
> drive. Just to substantiate my statement: The ZR-1 still holds the
> international land speed undurance record at 181 mph, beating the next
> nearest competitor, the Porsche 911 (forget the actual model) at 162
> mph. That is an average taken over a 24 hour period and figured on
> total distance driven. Oh, this was a stock Vette with only a
> transmission cooler added (dealer installed option). This may be an
> exception to the rule, still, USA #1.
Hmm. McLaren F1? Aston Vantage? TVR Cerbera? Lister Storm? Marcos LM600?
Not that I'm biased.....
Dean
(93 TVR V8S)
Brad Sloan
On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Bill and Dawn wrote:
> laters,
>
> Bill and Dawn '94 Ford Bronco XLT
> '93 Mazda MX-3
Hey, is that a 1.8L V-6 MX-3? You guys ever had it to 160??
Brad
Bullwhip
>
> Have you considered that perhaps the Vette owns this record merely because
> no one in a faster car has endeavored to attempt to break it?
>
> Oh, and BTW, I thought they also diddled with the gear ratios for that run.
>
> --
> Mike Kohlbrenner
> <kohl...@an.hp.com>
No Way! They left the 4.88's in so they could keep the RPM's up!
Bullwhip :)
David A. Lyons
On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Shawn Walsh wrote:
> Ok, I'll make one statement for the US and the Heartbeat: Chevy
> Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
> BAR NONE. And a very good bargin at $55,000. And if there is an
The Lambo Diablo runs 202 mph.
Dennis Smith
> 2. Considering the ~$9000 dollar loss differential (that's what cars
> are, a financial loss to be minimized), that's *far* more than these
> vehicles will differ in the aggregate on repair costs. Really.
>
For people who consider cars only as a financial loss to be minimized, the
equation is relatively simple. Never buy a new car. Never buy an expensive
car. Never buy a performance car. Never buy an unreliable car. This would
lead one to buy something like a two year old Honda Accord with low miles
(20K or so) and keep it for 15 years, replacing things as they wear out or
break. You can't lose. Except that you will have a hard time calling this a
hobby and you may die of boredom.
Paul W Harvey
>Shawn Walsh (Shawn...@ub.com) wrote:
>: Ok, I'll make one statement for the US and the Heartbeat: Chevy
>: Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
>: BAR NONE. And a very good bargin at $55,000. And if there is an
>: argument to be made, throw the Calloway package on it and take it beyond
>: 650 horse and pretty much faster than anyone I know is brave enough to
>: drive. Just to substantiate my statement: The ZR-1 still holds the
>: international land speed undurance record at 181 mph, beating the next
>: nearest competitor, the Porsche 911 (forget the actual model) at 162
>: mph. That is an average taken over a 24 hour period and figured on
>: total distance driven. Oh, this was a stock Vette with only a
>: transmission cooler added (dealer installed option). This may be an
>: exception to the rule, still, USA #1.
>
>Amen. On my way to work I saw two brand new bright red Corvettes pulling
>out of an on ramp onto the interstate driving in formation. Had to be
>one of the most beautiful sights I have seen in a while. What a work of
>mechanical art. I have yet to see any foreign car under $100K that
>evokes that kind of response. Am I the only one that thinks that Porsche
>911s are UGLY? And SLOW!?!?
>
>Mike Golden
>'81 Buick Regal, Chevy 355, TH400, Holley 750DP, Paxton S/C, 9" Ford
>
Facts:
Corvettes are fast. (Fast being defined as it will get you *way* over
65 and you won't get much older while it happens)
Porsches are fast.
You can find someone who likes or hates the way any car looks.
What about the status and image a car portrays. The people who are
buying those kind of cars probably are just a concerned with those two
things as they are with speed and looks.
In my mind a Porsche has always been a bit more of a "snob" car.
Most of the people I see in them make too much and have *no idea* what
the car they're sitting in can do.
I think BMWs, Saabs, Audis, Porches, Lambos, etc. are always going to
be associated with very successful people. I betcha when someone is
looking to buy one their thinking the same thing.
But that's just what I think.
Later,
Paul
GOLDEN MIKE A
Leroy Curtis
In article <54090j$s...@news4.digex.net>, Bentley
<ben...@access3.digex.net> writes
>Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) said something like:
>: A couple of years ago, the Commerce Dept. found that Japanese minivans
>: were being dumped. They didn't impose any penalties because the sales
>: were so low, they said the practice didn't hurt American sales.
>
>So, you don't know of any products being dumped on the US right now?
>Care to compare the cost of Passats and A4's in the US vs in Germany?
>Funny, I don't see any references to us being at 'war' with Germany....
>care to explain?
If I may butt in here, I think the case is that we in Europe pay
artificially inflated prices for our cars, rather than the prices being
artificially deflated for the US.
>
Regards
Leroy Curtis Le...@baram.demon.co.uk
Mail sent via Demon Internet
Dean B.
In article <53vjeu$e...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu>, mgo...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu
(GOLDEN MIKE A) wrote:
> Shawn Walsh (Shawn...@ub.com) wrote:
> : Ok, I'll make one statement for the US and the Heartbeat: Chevy
> : Corvette ZR-1, Simply put: The fastest production car in the world,
> : BAR NONE. And a very good bargin at $55,000. And if there is an
> : argument to be made, throw the Calloway package on it and take it beyond
> : 650 horse and pretty much faster than anyone I know is brave enough to
> : drive. Just to substantiate my statement: The ZR-1 still holds the
> : international land speed undurance record at 181 mph, beating the next
> : nearest competitor, the Porsche 911 (forget the actual model) at 162
> : mph. That is an average taken over a 24 hour period and figured on
> : total distance driven. Oh, this was a stock Vette with only a
> : transmission cooler added (dealer installed option). This may be an
> : exception to the rule, still, USA #1.
>
> Amen. On my way to work I saw two brand new bright red Corvettes pulling
> out of an on ramp onto the interstate driving in formation. Had to be
> one of the most beautiful sights I have seen in a while. What a work of
> mechanical art. I have yet to see any foreign car under $100K that
> evokes that kind of response.
Only 'cause you don't get TVRs on your side of the pond.
Dean
David A. Guhr
Your forgetting the $100 a month your dumping in. You should change
purchase price to investment, and then include the $6000 to the domestic
line that you are subtracting from the "loss" at the end. That would
make it more accurate.
Dave
--
|David A. Guhr
|Wichita State University Computer Science
|da...@wichita.feist.com http://www.feist.com/~davy
|dag...@cs.twsu.edu http://www.twsu.edu/~daguhr
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|Instead of a trap door, what about a trap window?
|The guy looks out it, and if he leans too far, he falls
|out. Wait. I guess that's like a regular window.
| -Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
Rexford T. Hound
Mike Kohlbrenner <NoJun...@My.Mailbox.Thank.You> wrote in article
<3263D7...@My.Mailbox.Thank.You>...
> Rexford T. Hound wrote:
> >
> > ... Let's say you are an average American working in
> > an average job making $15.00 an hour and some CEO puts together a
spread
> > sheet that shows he can replace Joe Blow American with Pedro, who will
> > gracefully work for $15.00 dollars a DAY!!! And you happen to be one
the
> > poor souls with the name Joe Blow American on the outside looking in.
Are
> > you prepared to start a new job tomorrow making the same salary you did
> > before you got laid off?? I hope so. You' will need it to pay for all
them
> > imported toys you bought to pacify yourself.
>
> I have a couple of questions.
>
> If all of the above is true, why is it that folks in the U.S. are still
buying
> "imported" vehicles even though they tend to cost MORE on average?
>
How much did our fore father's pay to purchase Manhattan from the American
Indians??
> Don't you consider it a bit ironic that folks in the U.S., the home of
the
> free market, are so hung up on protectionist measures?
>
Have you tried to sell US grown rice in Japan lately?
> If the imported vehicle sales were never a threat back in the seventies
and
> eighties, do you really think that the "Big 3" would have implemented the
> significant advances in value and quality that we are now beginning to
see?
>
No argument about the quality issue from me. Hey, flood the shores with a
vehicle of equal quality and put a price tag on it less than what it costs
to to manufacture the damn thing. I might buy one too.. NOT!!!! But, then
again, isn't the same thing happening with consumer electronics? Get a
good foot hold in the market and drive out the competition. There is a
term for this tactic. My memory fails me. Can you help me with this one?
> I bought a Honda back in 1990 because it was the best car for me at that
> time. We bought another Honda this year because it was the best car for
us
> at that time. We shopped at the Big 3 dealerships, but frankly, nothing
> compared. I was sad because I would like to support Detroit, but at the
> same time, I was happy because they have come a long way since 1990.
Maybe
> I'll be able to buy one the next time around.
>
I can safely say that I was satisfied with all the American cars that I
have owned, but, don't ask me about Dealer satisfaction. There was none.
> Now before you go off calling me some sort of Commie or something,
remember
> what it really means to be a capitalist. Free market. Competition.
Value
> for your money.
>
I never called anyone a commie, nor will I ever. Your free to buy what you
want.
> Personally, I find it rather chauvinistic that so many U.S. citizens feel
> that the free market ends at their borders. It is such a "screw everyone
> else" attitude.
>
Thanks. I stand corrected. I thought that it was the other countries
boycotting our products. Would you like to buy some rice, I have several
billion tons that I grew for Japan. There claiming that they are hungry
over there, but can't seem to pass our rice through their digestive tract.
> My belief is that if we all wrapped ourselves up in the stars & stripes
and
> "bought American" regardless of quality or value, in the long run, we
would
> all lose. There would be no motivation for change and the quality of the
> U.S. made products would continue in the downward trend that was evident
in
> previous decades. Where would we end up? I shudder to think.
>
I'm sure as hell not rapped up in old glory. What some of our so called
leader's are getting away with makes me sick. What makes me even sicker is
that we as good patriots would lay our lives on the line for our country,
but, the government won't take responsibility to our sick veterans of
Dessert Storm $$$ Vietnam. As an American I'm embarrassed that I wouldn't
even wipe my ass with the Stars and Stripes let alone die for this county.
> No, we should not adopt protectionist measures. We should wake the hell
up
> and COMPETE, dammit! That's what made the U.S. great back in the good
ole'
> days -- let's do it again.
>
I don't want protectionistic measures, I want a level playing field for
all.
The Hound
Steve Sheldon
In article <32661568...@snews2.zippo.com>, cob...@super.zippo.com (Tom W) wrote:
>> So let's total this up, shall we?
>>
>> purchase price total cost total return loss
>>The "import" $20,000 $24,909 $10,000 $14909
>>The "domestic" $15,000 $18,682 $13,473 $5209
>>
>>
>> It's amazine the tools you find in Microsoft Money 95 investment planner.
>>
>
>
>You forgot to include the cost of the $7,473 investment in your
>analysis.
Whhoops, you're right. I forgot the $6,000 invested.
purchase price total cost total return loss
The "import" $20,000 $24,909 $10,000 $14909
The "domestic" $15,000 $24,685 $13,473 $11212
Ok, we still come out ahead, just not quite as optimistically as I mistakenly
presented.
Thanks for pointing that out! I'm not interested in totally distorting
things, just presenting on opposing viewpoint.
Someone else pointed out via email that it's unrealistic to assume someone is
going to actually save their money. Ohwell, their loss. :)
Steve
Bill and Dawn
nope, its the 4 banger and iv only had it up to about 85 or 90. it did
have a little left. the only problem was it's the wife's car and it's
hard for me to concentrate when she is screaming "SLOW THE H***
DOWN!!"....;-)))))
Steve Sheldon
In article <5403i0$9...@koptsm06.delcoelect.com>, jkre...@eng.delcoelect.com wrote:
>
>This is a very good way of looking at the problem, BUT (there usually
>is) you didn't factor in the repair costs which were the reason the
>original person choose the $20k import.
Hmm, maybe if you spent more time at Delco building quality parts and quit
responding to my news postings we wouldn't have this problem... :)
Actually that's a tough call. Imports generally have much higher prices for
parts. They also have much higher regular maintenance costs, and higher
insurance. Thus far my Integra costs a great deal more in maintenance than
any other car I have owned, I'm still in the warranty period as well... I
guess I'll find out given time.
>Also, let's figure that each buyer had brand loyalty and that the
>previous cars were 25% cheaper, or $15k and $11,250. Using your
>residual values, the trade-ins are worth and $7,500 and $4,500.
>Therefore, the $20k loan is really only $12,500 and the $15k loan is
>really $10,500. This kind of *screws up* your numbers.
But, if the previous buyer had used my magical formula they'd have all that
cash in the bank and could pay in cash, thus saving financing fees. :)
Steve Sheldon
In article <53vv8l$7...@daryl.scsn.net>, cg...@scsn.net (Jack Goff) wrote:
>
>The fact that Japanese cars are bringing good prices even after 5 or 6
>years has generally been true in the past few years, but don't forget
>that the yen to dollar exchange rate has also increased, artificially
>inflating the Japanese car's resale value. When you pay 15,000 for a
>car, then 2 -3 years later the same car cost 20,000 new, the older
>car's resale goes up.
>
>American cars have increased in price, but nearly as much and not for
>the same reason.
Hmm... might be an interesting study to calculate some resale values based
not on their original price, but on their current replacement price.
Hmm...
Most buyers when looking at buying a car, and seeing a price of $10k on a 4
year old Accord don't say "That thing only cost $14k when it was new!"
Instead they look at a new Accord and say "Shit, the thing costs $20k,
actually $10k for a 4 year old car sounds reasonable."
Mark Brindle
Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
: Fact: Figured as a percentage of MSRP, American cars are as good as, if
: not better than, comparable imports on resale value. For example, using
: average trade-in values for 93 and 94 models in the 95 NADA Official Used
: Car Guide, a Dodge Intrepid retains a higher % of its value than an
: Accord or Camry.
Hmm... methinks I wiff the vile stench of Lloydspeak. Maybe
I'm just naturally suspicious, but I kinda wonder *why* Lloyd
selected *1995* NADA values. You got a time-machine, Lloyd?
Or, did you "accidentally" select a "fact" that predated CR's
Intrepid dis-recommendation (aka admission of incompetence).
Anyone who's interested in checking-out this "fact a la Lloyd"
should surf over to www.edmunds.com and discover the *true*
definition of "pathological liar".
...lies, damn lies, Lloydspeak!
Mark
"A clumsy, unscientific lie can be as ineffectual as the truth."
- Mark Twain
Rexford T. Hound
Dennis Z Kuo <ku...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote in article
<540stl$k...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
> Rexford T. Hound (****@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : Let's go up to the black board not the Sega Genesis and try to break it
> : down into simple terms. Let's say you are an average American working
in
> : an average job making $15.00 an hour and some CEO puts together a
spread
> : sheet that shows he can replace Joe Blow American with Pedro, who will
> : gracefully work for $15.00 dollars a DAY!!! And you happen to be one
the
> : poor souls with the name Joe Blow American on the outside looking in.
Are
> : you prepared to start a new job tomorrow making the same salary you did
> : before you got laid off?? I hope so. You' will need it to pay for all
them
> : imported toys you bought to pacify yourself.
>
> (snip)
>
> : Now ask yourself "Uh, what does this have to do with autos?" when the
> : Repo Man has your car. Maybe by then you would have figured out what
this
> : have to do with autos. Good luck.
>
> So who do you support? The companies that have been closing plants in
> the U.S. and opening up plants in Mexico and Canada, or the companies
> that have been opening up plants in the United States and employing
> American workers?
>
> I don't like the mentality that many large corporations have--take away
> the jobs from American workers, give them to cheap overseas labor, and
> watch the CEO take home $15 million a year. But at the average consumer
> level, I think the issue is a lot more complicated than buying based on a
> nameplate, especially since so much of our goods are made overseas--autos
> and non-autos--today.
>
Dennis,
I commend you for your intelligent response. Being an average consumer
myself, I'm sure I don't know all the behind the sceenes goings on of this
situation.
As stated in my last posts I'm not taking sides for any county out there,
even the US. I surely wouldn't buy an American car if it was a piece of
crap. My point is if a Japanese company wants to manufacture and sell in
the US, let them, but, be fair about the situation and contribute to the
country. The only reason that Japanese cars are made here is to get around
all the import taxes and tariffs. How many parts are manufactured in the
US, if any, that end up in a American assembled Import???? To take this
one more step. Why won't the Japanese import American rice? Is it
inferior to their rice? I think not!!! Are all American products
sub-standard? I would like to see an even playing field with no trade
barriers for all. Would everybody play fair? The bottom line is that if
we as a nation continue as a nation of consumers and don't produce a
product that can be sold on a global level, we're all going to loose. Just
my opinion as an American.
Good luck.
Anthony Potts
On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Mike Kohlbrenner wrote:
>
> > Just to substantiate my statement: The ZR-1 still holds the
> > international land speed undurance record at 181 mph, beating the next
> > nearest competitor, the Porsche 911 (forget the actual model) at 162
> > mph. That is an average taken over a 24 hour period and figured on
> > total distance driven. Oh, this was a stock Vette with only a
> > transmission cooler added (dealer installed option).
>
> Have you considered that perhaps the Vette owns this record merely because
> no one in a faster car has endeavored to attempt to break it?
>
> Oh, and BTW, I thought they also diddled with the gear ratios for that run.
>
> --
Those speed figures, quoted above, whilst impressive, do not quite measure
up to the supercars we are used to seeing in Europe.
For example, take the Williams, or the McLaren F1, both with MUCH higher
top speeds than the figures quoted for the ZR1. Then, of course, you have
cars like the Diablo, and the Ferrari F50, both of which are extremely
fast.
I believe the williams manages 0-60mph in about 3.5 seconds, which puts it
right near the top in acceleration stakes.
When I got my current motoirbike, I looked up the acceleration figures for
the top cars, to see what would beat it. I seem to reacll, that on the
figures of two years ago, pretty much the only thing available which
accelerated harder was the McLaren. No Z-1 was mentioned.
Anthony Potts
CERN, Geneva
John Weir
Anthony Potts (po...@cms3.cern.ch) wrote:
: On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Mike Kohlbrenner wrote:
: >
: > > Just to substantiate my statement: The ZR-1 still holds the
: > > international land speed undurance record at 181 mph, beating the next
: > > nearest competitor, the Porsche 911 (forget the actual model) at 162
: > > mph. That is an average taken over a 24 hour period and figured on
: > > total distance driven. Oh, this was a stock Vette with only a
: > > transmission cooler added (dealer installed option).
: >
: > Have you considered that perhaps the Vette owns this record merely because
: > no one in a faster car has endeavored to attempt to break it?
: >
: > Oh, and BTW, I thought they also diddled with the gear ratios for that run.
: >
: > --
: Those speed figures, quoted above, whilst impressive, do not quite measure
: up to the supercars we are used to seeing in Europe.
: For example, take the Williams, or the McLaren F1, both with MUCH higher
: top speeds than the figures quoted for the ZR1. Then, of course, you have
: cars like the Diablo, and the Ferrari F50, both of which are extremely
: fast.
I have a hard time looking at a hand-built car and making a claim that it
is a production car.
John
Stian F.Oksavik
In article <vW0+wBAn...@baram.demon.co.uk>, Leroy Curtis
<Le...@baram.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Right on the mark. I might add that the same thing goes for gasoline.
And for all of you who think that Europeans don't mind paying high taxes
for the privilege of functioning in today's society (ie. driving a car,)
well here's one European who does mind.
Good thing I'm in the US now :)
-Stian
Lloyd R. Parker
Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) said something like:
: : it, yes, this is better. You don't get the resale back until you sell it
: : 5 years later. Doesn't help at all with the initial purchase.
:
: It does if you lease.
But then there's not an "initial purchase," right? There's a security
deposit and maybe a cap cost.
:
: Not true. Not even close, in fact.
:
Sorry, it is. The average trade-in value of 93 and 94 Intrepids in the
95 NADA book was 83.9% of their MSRP; the Accord was 77.9% and the Camry
was 77.8%.
Lloyd R. Parker
Bentley (ben...@access3.digex.net) wrote:
:
: So, you don't know of any products being dumped on the US right now?
Nope.
: Care to compare the cost of Passats and A4's in the US vs in Germany?
: Funny, I don't see any references to us being at 'war' with Germany....
: care to explain?
Kind of hard to compare, since levels of equipment vary so. That's why I
am not charging anybody with dumping myself, but depending on the experts
to make that decision.
: You are correct that the models that have not yet been certified have not
: been certified. No sh**.
No, TYPE certified. The US automatically type certifies cars. We even
let the manufacturer do the certification. Not so in Japan.
:
: But
: : let's say you're right. My favorite solution is what Tom Clancy had in
: : "Debt of Honor": Let's impose EXACTLY the same laws on imports from
: : Japan as Japan imposes on imports from the US. What could be more fair?
: : I bet the Japanese could complain loud and long if we did this.
:
: Since we have more requirements for imports than Japan does, this is a
: pretty stupid arguement.
Is that why we can't see auto parts in Japan? Is that why dealers in
Japan have a hard time taking on a US line in addition to their existing
Japanese line? Is that why we have about 200 dealers in Japan while
Japan has thousands of dealers here?
:
: And let's not forget what the results of that action in DoH led to...
:
: Funny how you focus so much on Japanese barriers, but never the european
: ones.
Well, so far the European barriers seem designed to keep the Japanese
out, not American products. But hey, Brazil is even worse -- you've got
to have a huge domestic content to even sell cars there. Australia
requires you to export a certain number of cars there for a given number
of imports -- that's why the Diamante is now coming to the US from Down
Under.
Lloyd R. Parker
Mark Brindle (bri...@lf.hp.com) wrote:
: Lloyd R. Parker (lpa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
: Hmm... methinks I wiff the vile stench of Lloydspeak. Maybe
: I'm just naturally suspicious, but I kinda wonder *why* Lloyd
: selected *1995* NADA values. You got a time-machine, Lloyd?
: Or, did you "accidentally" select a "fact" that predated CR's
: Intrepid dis-recommendation (aka admission of incompetence).
Huh? I selected 95 values because that's the info I have in hand. CR
doesn't recommend or not-recommend any car due to its resale value. CR
recommended the LH cars in 93 when they came out; they dropped the
recommendation for 94 and 95, but recommend the Concorde for 96 as its
reported reliability has improved to "average."
:
: Anyone who's interested in checking-out this "fact a la Lloyd"
: should surf over to www.edmunds.com and discover the *true*
: definition of "pathological liar".
And we all know used car dealers use Edmunds instead of NADA, right?
Besides, as I posted, this was an average of 93 and 94 resale values
since that was the info I had.
rai...@sover.net
yes, the above is true. But I have never seen a domestic sedan that
could match the Accord or Camry's resale value after 5 years or so.
The reason being that the Accord and Camry have better longevity and
run longer without serious problems.