Ford circles the drain
gpsman
Ford's trouble: $4 gas is here to stay
Gas prices are causing consumers to shun pickups and SUVs, leading to
losses at the car maker's North American auto unit.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
Last Updated: May 22, 2008: 2:40 PM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Ford Motor Co. executives say they believe
that $4 gas is here to stay, resulting in a fundamental consumer shift
away from gas-guzzling SUVs and pickups and causing continued losses
at its core North American auto unit.
The company said it expects gas prices to remain in the range of $3.75
to $4.25 a gallon through the end of 2009. And that expectation
prompted the nation's No. 3 automaker to announce deep production cuts
for what has been its best selling and most profitable vehicles for
several decades and could lead to more plant closings and job cuts
down the road.
--
"Ford now believes that the change in vehicle choice is structural,
not cyclical", Mulally said.
--
Nothing gets by you, does it, Sparky?
-----
- gpsman
N8N
> http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/companies/ford/?postversion=2008...
Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer
simply by importing their European and Australian products. (someone
once said, I forget who, that the best damn American cars are made in
Austraila - and it's true.) I'm not entirely certain why they seem to
think that the average American consumer wants to either drive a slow,
boring econobox; a slow, boring luxury car; or a slow, boring SUV.
Of course, that may actually be true. Lord knows that with few
exceptions my own personal automotive choices are not shared by many
people (although there's a dead ringer for my 944 floating around
town.)
nate
Brent P
> Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer
> simply by importing their European and Australian products.
I just argued that in another thread ;) The problem is that when they've
done it experimentally, they flub it for one reason or the other. Most
often a combination of ruining the car and/or poor marketing. Then the
next time it is suggested they point at the screw up and say it cannot
possibly work.
> (someone
> once said, I forget who, that the best damn American cars are made in
> Austraila - and it's true.)
I've been saying that the best american cars are made in austraila for
about a decade now... not in those exact words though :) Something along
the lines if you want a real american car you have to go to Austraila.
> I'm not entirely certain why they seem to
> think that the average American consumer wants to either drive a slow,
> boring econobox; a slow, boring luxury car; or a slow, boring SUV.
Because that's all that can make it through design by committee :)
At least they aren't french cars...
http://www.rockauto.com/Newsletter/archives/5808.htm
(scroll to the bottom)
Nate Nagel
The sad thing is, a late 80's/early 90's FWD Olds with a 3800 is
probably one of the better contemporary American cars, and probably is
more economical to run and more reliable than a lot of newer models.
It's a car only my grandmother could love (well, actually, hers is a
Buick Century...)
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Eeyore
gpsman wrote:
Did his kids explain that to him ?
Graham
Eeyore
N8N wrote:
> Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer
> simply by importing their European and Australian products.
GM has started.
Graham
N8N
wrote:
On a very small scale, the only current model that I'm aware of is the
Pontiac G8. The late Pontiac GTO was pretty much a 2-door version of
the same car.
But, of course, the G8 is pretty much exactly what we'd be building
right here today if GM had let the old A-body design evolve and
modernize rather than completely freaking out in the 70's and 80's and
retooling for non-traditional FWD cars. The downside is, of course,
that while competent and appealing it is still a large-ish V-8 powered
sedan, which is probably not what the market's going to be wanting for
the next few years.
nate
Brent P
> But, of course, the G8 is pretty much exactly what we'd be building
> right here today if GM had let the old A-body design evolve and
> modernize rather than completely freaking out in the 70's and 80's and
> retooling for non-traditional FWD cars.
Thank CAFE. Government deciding what the market should want.
> The downside is, of course,
> that while competent and appealing it is still a large-ish V-8 powered
> sedan, which is probably not what the market's going to be wanting for
> the next few years.
I don't know about the holdens but the inline 6 fords get good fuel
economy last I looked at them.
Eeyore
N8N wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> > N8N wrote:
> >
> > > Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer
> > > simply by importing their European and Australian products.
> >
> > GM has started.
> >
> > Graham
>
> On a very small scale, the only current model that I'm aware of is the
> Pontiac G8. The late Pontiac GTO was pretty much a 2-door version of
> the same car.
The Saturn Astra is simply an Opel Astra.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Astra
I recall you're supposed to be getting the Vectra too. That's the Saturn Aura.
And you used to get a 'Pontiac' GTO made by Holden. I have no idea why they
dropped that model. Oh and the old Chevy Cavalier was basically an Opel
Ascona.
Going way back, Europe, the USA and Australia all had the Chevette too.
Unfortunately the US predilection for larger engines and auto boxes makes the
mpg figures drop somewhat.
e.g. the Vectra is available in Europe with a 1.8 litre petrol engine (or a
1.9 litre turbo diesel for added economy) but the base Aura engine is 2.4
litres and no diesel is offered. Max engine size is 3.0 l vs 3.5 l.
Graham
Ulf
> On May 23, 9:20 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> N8N wrote:
>>> Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer
>>> simply by importing their European and Australian products.
>> GM has started.
>>
>> Graham
>
> On a very small scale, the only current model that I'm aware of is the
> Pontiac G8. The late Pontiac GTO was pretty much a 2-door version of
> the same car.
Well, the Saturn Astra is a rebadged Opel, and the Aura looks a lot like
a Vectra.
>
> But, of course, the G8 is pretty much exactly what we'd be building
> right here today if GM had let the old A-body design evolve and
> modernize rather than completely freaking out in the 70's and 80's and
> retooling for non-traditional FWD cars. The downside is, of course,
> that while competent and appealing it is still a large-ish V-8 powered
> sedan, which is probably not what the market's going to be wanting for
> the next few years.
That would depend on how the "ethanol project" is working out... Of
course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel
economy.
>
> nate
Ulf
N8N
wrote:
> N8N wrote:
> > Eeyore wrote:
> > > N8N wrote:
>
> > > > Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer
> > > > simply by importing their European and Australian products.
>
> > > GM has started.
>
> > > Graham
>
> > On a very small scale, the only current model that I'm aware of is the
> > Pontiac G8. The late Pontiac GTO was pretty much a 2-door version of
> > the same car.
>
>
> I recall you're supposed to be getting the Vectra too. That's the Saturn Aura.
> And you used to get a 'Pontiac' GTO made by Holden. I have no idea why they
> dropped that model. Oh and the old Chevy Cavalier was basically an Opel
> Ascona.
I was referring simply to Australian models, as they reflect the
traditional American car better than do current American or European
models. I believe the new Malibu (which is what GM is hanging a lot
of its hopes on) is at least Vectra-based. I've heard it's actually
decent, but I haven't had the opportunity to drive one yet. There is
one coworker that's gotten one of the new ones; I'm hoping I get a
chance to try it soon. I don't know about the Cavalier, but it was
always a POS anyway.
> Going way back, Europe, the USA and Australia all had the Chevette too.
Yes, and the Ford Capri was imported here briefly before it became the
Mercury Capri as basically a hatchback Mustang with a weird back
glass. we also got the Merkur (Ford) XR4Ti which was basically a
German Ford with a turbo'd Pinto engine under the hood - actually a
decent car but left to die on the vine. Likewise with the Scorpio
(although I dont' know how decent that actually was, as so few were
sold) and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few others. Also the Mondeo-based
cars which were far better than contemporary Ford offerings - they
were actually built in the US and were simply based on a Euro design
not imported (as I'm assuming the Vectra-based cars are for GM) but
even so they were basically unmarketed and unloved for some reason.
> Unfortunately the US predilection for larger engines and auto boxes makes the
> mpg figures drop somewhat.
>
> e.g. the Vectra is available in Europe with a 1.8 litre petrol engine (or a
> 1.9 litre turbo diesel for added economy) but the base Aura engine is 2.4
> litres and no diesel is offered. Max engine size is 3.0 l vs 3.5 l.
US safety regs don't help any, either. Not *all* American drivers
insist on slushboxes, although I do have to confess a fondness for
large engines.
nate
N8N
> N8N wrote:
> > On May 23, 9:20 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> N8N wrote:
> >>> Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer
> >>> simply by importing their European and Australian products.
> >> GM has started.
>
> >> Graham
>
> > On a very small scale, the only current model that I'm aware of is the
> > Pontiac G8. The late Pontiac GTO was pretty much a 2-door version of
> > the same car.
>
> Well, the Saturn Astra is a rebadged Opel, and the Aura looks a lot like
> a Vectra.
see my last post, I was referring to Australian models.
>
>
> > But, of course, the G8 is pretty much exactly what we'd be building
> > right here today if GM had let the old A-body design evolve and
> > modernize rather than completely freaking out in the 70's and 80's and
> > retooling for non-traditional FWD cars. The downside is, of course,
> > that while competent and appealing it is still a large-ish V-8 powered
> > sedan, which is probably not what the market's going to be wanting for
> > the next few years.
>
> That would depend on how the "ethanol project" is working out...
It won't.
> Of
> course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel
> economy.
If there were any; the only one I'm aware of is the Cummins truck
engine, which isn't exactly "modern." And an I-6 is best packaged in
a RWD car, of which we have few choices.
nate
Brent P
This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain...
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/car/688550299.html
They have a car that people actually want to buy. So what does ford do?
they limit production and then dealerships sell it for ~20 grand
above sticker.
Eeyore
N8N wrote:
> Ulf <a...@asdf.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel
> > economy.
>
> If there were any; the only one I'm aware of is the Cummins truck
> engine, which isn't exactly "modern." And an I-6 is best packaged in
> a RWD car, of which we have few choices.
BMW do an I6 diesel. Very nice apparently. Even Jeremy Clarkson hasn't been rude
about it which must be a near miracle since he considers diesels to be the work
of the devil.
Graham
Eeyore
Brent P wrote:
It won't actually save the company though will it, nice as it may be.
Graham
N8N
wrote:
That must be a Yurrup-only option; I don't believe BMW sells any
Diesels in the YooEss at all. In fact, I don't think VW is currently
selling any either, and they were as of a few years ago (and I see
quite a few of them on the road.)
nate
Eeyore
N8N wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> > N8N wrote:
> > > Ulf <a...@asdf.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Of course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel
> > > > economy.
> >
> > > If there were any; the only one I'm aware of is the Cummins truck
> > > engine, which isn't exactly "modern." And an I-6 is best packaged in
> > > a RWD car, of which we have few choices.
> >
> > BMW do an I6 diesel. Very nice apparently. Even Jeremy Clarkson hasn't been rude
> > about it which must be a near miracle since he considers diesels to be the work
> > of the devil.
>
>
> That must be a Yurrup-only option; I don't believe BMW sells any
> Diesels in the YooEss at all. In fact, I don't think VW is currently
> selling any either, and they were as of a few years ago (and I see
> quite a few of them on the road.)
You could be right. Of course our diesel fuel has been 'clean diesel' for some time
here to get the emissions acceptable. It's only recently become available your side of
the pond.
Shame as the 530d 'wagon' he tested does 40.9 mpg (UK) overall. That's 34 mpg over
your way.
Graham
Brent P
No, but it's an example of the mentality of the company.
N8N
wrote:
In their defense, they may be artificially limiting production for
CAFE reasons, and the dealer markup is a natural consequence of supply
and demand.
nate
Tom D
news:5bac1634-c13a-4808...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> That must be a Yurrup-only option; I don't believe BMW sells any
> Diesels in the YooEss at all. In fact, I don't think VW is currently
> selling any either, and they were as of a few years ago (and I see
> quite a few of them on the road.)
I believe that VW has plans to bring the new diesel engine vehicles to the
US. Not sure when though. I considered a diesel VW a couple of years ago,
but at the time, diesel was about the same price or more than premium. Its
even worse now, so I think that the only way I would consider one now is if
there was no additional charge for a diesel engine. With past models, it
was around $1400 more for the diesel engine vs. the gas engine. Even though
the MPGs are a lot higher with the diesel, I don't put a whole lot of miles
on my cars, so it would take me a long time to realize any savings over a
gas model.
-=- Tom
N8N
> "N8N" <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
At least with VW I would still consider the Diesel in your situation,
as the performance was markedly better than the stock 2.0 gas engine.
You'd end up paying a premium to get the 1.8T or VR6 engines, as well.
nate
Brent P
It's off their CAFE calculation, ford just charges the gas guzzler tax
to the buyer.
Eeyore
Brent P wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> > Brent P wrote:
> >
> >> This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain...
> >>
> >> http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/car/688550299.html
> >>
> >> They have a car that people actually want to buy. So what does ford do?
> >> they limit production and then dealerships sell it for ~20 grand
> >> above sticker.
> >
> > It won't actually save the company though will it, nice as it may be.
>
> No, but it's an example of the mentality of the company.
They do seem to be rather lost. I wonder where they get the clowns to run big
corporations these days. Certainly none of them seem to have any vision.
Graham
Eeyore
Tom D wrote:
> "N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > That must be a Yurrup-only option; I don't believe BMW sells any
> > Diesels in the YooEss at all. In fact, I don't think VW is currently
> > selling any either, and they were as of a few years ago (and I see
> > quite a few of them on the road.)
>
> I believe that VW has plans to bring the new diesel engine vehicles to the
> US. Not sure when though. I considered a diesel VW a couple of years ago,
> but at the time, diesel was about the same price or more than premium. Its
> even worse now, so I think that the only way I would consider one now is if
> there was no additional charge for a diesel engine. With past models, it
> was around $1400 more for the diesel engine vs. the gas engine. Even though
> the MPGs are a lot higher with the diesel, I don't put a whole lot of miles
> on my cars, so it would take me a long time to realize any savings over a
> gas model.
The trend in Europe is now heading towards more equal prices for gasoline and
diesel powered cars. I dare say the huge increase in diesel car sales (around
40% ? now) is responsible for that.
Thing is, the US auto makers (other than the big truck makers) don't seem to
have a single decent domestic diesel engine between them. Also, European diesels
rely heavily on being turbo'd, another area seemingly almost unknown to the US
auto makers.
Graham
Brent P
> Thing is, the US auto makers (other than the big truck makers) don't seem to
> have a single decent domestic diesel engine between them. Also, European diesels
> rely heavily on being turbo'd, another area seemingly almost unknown to the US
> auto makers.
Diesel got a bad rap in the US because of the sulfur content of the fuel
and because the mainstream GM diesel product was a disaster. They took a
solid V8 oldsmobile gasoline engine and forced it to be a diesel engine.
This of course didn't work well.
About the only thing americans have a long memory about is bad car
models.
N8N
wrote:
I wasn't aware that paying the gas guzzler tax excluded a vehicle from
CAFE calculations, and it would stand to reason that it wouldn't. I'm
having a hard time finding a citation one way or another.
nate
Eeyore
Brent P wrote:
> On 2008-05-23, Eeyore <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thing is, the US auto makers (other than the big truck makers) don't seem to
> > have a single decent domestic diesel engine between them. Also, European diesels
> > rely heavily on being turbo'd, another area seemingly almost unknown to the US
> > auto makers.
>
> Diesel got a bad rap in the US because of the sulfur content of the fuel
We got 'clean diesel' ages back. That helped acceptability hugely.
> and because the mainstream GM diesel product was a disaster. They took a
> solid V8 oldsmobile gasoline engine and forced it to be a diesel engine.
> This of course didn't work well.
So I understand. Not a good start.
> About the only thing americans have a long memory about is bad car
> models.
Shame about that. The only diesel I've driven myself was one of the Peugeot 1.9 turbo
models and that's noted to be a great engine. Honestly, it pulled like stink and went
very nicely indeed. Not slow at all. You just need to adjust the revs for gear changes
a little compared to a gasoline engine to take full advantage of the considerably
higher torque these engines produce. Very competent indeed and they're getting better
continually now.
Mind you, they still are a bit noisier. Nothing a bit of sound insulation can't fix
though.
Graham
Brent P
>> It's off their CAFE calculation, ford just charges the gas guzzler tax
>> to the buyer.
>
> I wasn't aware that paying the gas guzzler tax excluded a vehicle from
> CAFE calculations, and it would stand to reason that it wouldn't. I'm
> having a hard time finding a citation one way or another.
It was part of a topic of debate here some time ago. I thought that was
conclusion. Perhaps I mis-remembered something. I can't find it now and
I am sifting through title 49. Maybe it was the tax for an
entire manufacturer's product line to just not bother with CAFE at all.
I can find where they can neglect 'emergency vehicles'. Guess the
government doesn't have to have their vehicles downsized.
Reading the code shows a lot of power in the hands of the secretary (of
transportation) to make things whichever way. I'll have to go with
mis-remembering it until something else turns up otherwise.
N8N
wrote:
I'm not saying you're misremembering, I'm saying that I don't remember
reading that before. There's lots of stuff I don't know, the problem
is that I don't know that I don't know it :)
nate
N8N
wrote:
> On 2008-05-23, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thing is, the US auto makers (other than the big truck makers) don't seem to
> > have a single decent domestic diesel engine between them. Also, European diesels
> > rely heavily on being turbo'd, another area seemingly almost unknown to the US
> > auto makers.
>
> Diesel got a bad rap in the US because of the sulfur content of the fuel
> and because the mainstream GM diesel product was a disaster. They took a
> solid V8 oldsmobile gasoline engine and forced it to be a diesel engine.
> This of course didn't work well.
I wouldn't say "of course" - VW did the same thing with their Diesels
and it works very well. I guess the VW design must simply have been
more overbuilt than the Olds as they were both dead nuts reliable in
gasoline form.
> About the only thing americans have a long memory about is bad car
> models.
To some extent. People buy lots of crap cars every day, it's just
that the only Diesels that got any market penetration back in the 70's
were VW and Olds and consumers really didn't like either - VW because
they were underpowered and Olds because they were grenades, so people
from that era associate Diesel with tractor-trailers and cars they
don't want to buy, because that's all they knew.
nate
Brent P
The law is so convoluted that there may be a way out because they call
it a "Shelby"... It probably is counting against their CAFE, but it
can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci.
Ad absurdum per aspera
> > Because that's all that can make it through design by committee :)
_Car: A Drama of the American Workplace_ by Mary Walton is quite the
fly-on-the-wall look at that sort of thing.
Eeyore
Brent P wrote:
> but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci.
You mean Focuses ?
They're VERY WELL considered cars here in Europe. Possibly one of Ford's best
ever along with the Mondeo.
Ford CAN make good cars. It's just a shame the plastic trim always falls off
after about 6 months ! I can't believe it would take rocket science to fix that.
Graham
Eeyore
Shawn Hirn wrote:
> Eeyore <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > gpsman wrote:
> >
> > > http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/companies/ford/?postversion=2008052214
> > >
> > > Ford's trouble: $4 gas is here to stay
> > > Gas prices are causing consumers to shun pickups and SUVs, leading to
> > > losses at the car maker's North American auto unit.
> > > By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
> > > Last Updated: May 22, 2008: 2:40 PM EDT
> > >
> > > NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Ford Motor Co. executives say they believe
> > > that $4 gas is here to stay, resulting in a fundamental consumer shift
> > > away from gas-guzzling SUVs and pickups and causing continued losses
> > > at its core North American auto unit.
> > >
> > > The company said it expects gas prices to remain in the range of $3.75
> > > to $4.25 a gallon through the end of 2009. And that expectation
> > > prompted the nation's No. 3 automaker to announce deep production cuts
> > > for what has been its best selling and most profitable vehicles for
> > > several decades and could lead to more plant closings and job cuts
> > > down the road.
> > > --
> > >
> > > "Ford now believes that the change in vehicle choice is structural,
> > > not cyclical", Mulally said.
> >
> > Did his kids explain that to him ?
>
> The folks at Chrysler and GM need to reach that realization too. More
> and more Americans who have driven only American made cars are switching
> to Japanese due to their better fuel economy and reliability.
>
> My dad's 78 years old and has been driving since his early teens. Last
> spring, he bought his first Japanese car after having owned only
> American made cars. My dad loves shopping for cars, whereas, I hate
> doing that. He spent weeks looking at economical cars. He wanted
> something highly reliable and with reasonably good milage. He ended up
> with a Toyota Corolla. He said he preferred to buy something out of
> Detroit, but there just wasn't anything on the lots of domestic car
> dealers that met his requirements.
Nought wrong with a Corolla. Well made without factory defects, a competent drive
and economical if perhaps not especially an truly inspiring drive. But not everyone
needs some 'inspiring drive', they're quite happy with a car that 'does what it
says on the tin'.
Why can't US auto makers make something competitive ? Just how difficult can it be
?
Why are GM, Ford and Chrysler simply lacking the damn brains to make some decent
cars ? Have they become such bean-counters that they've lost sight of their primary
purpose ?
It's REALLY not difficult to design a nice car to drive these days given the
amazing amount of CAD assistance available but US auto makers continually miss the
target. What's wrong with their boards that they have become SO incompetent ?
Graham
Brent P
>
>
> Brent P wrote:
>
>> but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci.
>
> You mean Focuses ?
No sense of humor?
> They're VERY WELL considered cars here in Europe. Possibly one of Ford's best
> ever along with the Mondeo.
The assembly plant in mexico initially hurt the focus name here, I
think people have gotten over it.
> Ford CAN make good cars. It's just a shame the plastic trim always falls off
> after about 6 months ! I can't believe it would take rocket science to fix that.
My fords are 35 and 11 years old, neither has had trim 'fall off'.
Eeyore
Scott in SoCal wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> >Brent P wrote:
> >
> >> but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci.
> >
> >You mean Focuses ?
>
> I mean Focusen.
LOL Mein Herr ! (or should that be meinen ? )
Graham
Ulf
>> Of
>> course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel
>> economy.
>
> If there were any; the only one I'm aware of is the Cummins truck
> engine, which isn't exactly "modern." And an I-6 is best packaged in
> a RWD car, of which we have few choices.
Indeed, and I was thinking of BMW when I typed that. Their new 335d is
one vehicle I wouldn't mind owning, as long as I didn't have to pay for
it. 286 hp, 430 lb-ft, top speed 155 mph and 0-60 mph 6 sec. Just 35 mpg
US. Not available in the US, I know, but they exist...
>
> nate
Ulf
Arif Khokar
> On 2008-05-24, Eeyore <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci.
>> You mean Focuses ?
> No sense of humor?
You mean humour? ;)
Dave Head
<tetraethylle...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain...
>
>http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/car/688550299.html
>
>They have a car that people actually want to buy. So what does ford do?
>they limit production and then dealerships sell it for ~20 grand
>above sticker.
Well... it gets 12 mpg. How many can they sell without screwing up their CAFE?
>
>