Questions on the 845 tube
SOS674
planning to run class A? As for drivers check back issues of Sound Practices
or Glass Audio. Mike
Peter
600 volts instead of the normal rated 1000 V. I really do not need
more than about 10 or 12 watts and I figure that this way, I can built
the project inexpensively as well, as most all the parts can now be
derated. Is a good idea?
Also, what would be a good driver tube for the 845 considering the
abovementioned conditions?
And any references to schematics or specs will be appreciated :-)
Peter
Grover Gardner
but unless I'm mistaken you should expect only 6-8 watts in practice.
For a start, a direct-coupled 6SN7 cascade is a very good little circuit
and will give you enough voltage swing for full output, I think. Take a
look at the Angela website, JE Labs 300B amp in the How To section--this
will do nicely. Be sure to download the 845 specs and curves from Duncan
Amps page or wherever else they might be found, so you know how to set
up the output stage.
Peter wrote:
--
Grover Gardner
gro...@postoffice.att.net
John Harper
>
> I intend to build a 845-based SET, and would like to run it at about
> 600 volts instead of the normal rated 1000 V. I really do not need
> more than about 10 or 12 watts and I figure that this way, I can built
> the project inexpensively as well, as most all the parts can now be
> derated. Is a good idea?
> Also, what would be a good driver tube for the 845 considering the
> abovementioned conditions?
> And any references to schematics or specs will be appreciated :-)
>
> Peter
It's generally not a good idea to run a tube a long way below
its rated voltage, for audio anyway. If you look at the curves
you will see that the closer you are to the max voltage, the
straighter they are.
On this basis you would probably be better off with a lower voltage
tube (sounds like an uprated 300B like the VV32B would be just
right for what you want) running at its limits.
John
André Jute
> Peter wrote:
> >
> > I intend to build a 845-based SET, and would like to run it at about
> > 600 volts instead of the normal rated 1000 V. I really do not need
> > more than about 10 or 12 watts and I figure that this way, I can built
> > the project inexpensively as well, as most all the parts can now be
> > derated. Is a good idea?
> > Also, what would be a good driver tube for the 845 considering the
> > abovementioned conditions?
> > And any references to schematics or specs will be appreciated :-)
> >
> > Peter
>
> It's generally not a good idea to run a tube a long way below
> its rated voltage, for audio anyway. If you look at the curves
> you will see that the closer you are to the max voltage, the
> straighter they are.
Tubes have sweet spots. For me they generally fall at rather high
voltages. The 845 has one at 960V and other at 1040V.
Check where the 0V bias line falls for a reasonably high current. The
problem with low voltages on the 845 is that you also have to use a low
tranny primary impedance to get any swing at all in class A1. That takes
the loadline into the non-linear parts of the transfer function at the
low-current end. There is some Japanese support for these low operating
points (worth 2W! or so at clipping) but when I tried it, the sound did
not please.
2W and a bit from the SV572-3, available at 600V in Class A1, with much
more available in Class A2, into a 5K load, was a much better deal. But
none of these "big" tubes (I mean transmitting tubes as the SV572 are
not all that much bigger than EL-34, amazing since they are rated at
125W) give their best, in my opinion, until you run them hot and hard
with an operating point that permits choosing a relaxed and relaxing
load.
From memory, I doubt 10 or 12W are available from 845 without rather
highish voltages, in the order of 850V, and a compromised load to make
the power at the cost of increased distortion, so that you may as well
go for the full 19W available at nearer a 1000V with a 10K load that has
a wonderfully undistorted, relaxed sound.
Peter, note that your driver must be able to handle around 20mA of
current if you want 845 to cover the full audio band. Slew rate current
is probably the most important thing overlooked in 845 amps that don't
sound right.
>
> On this basis you would probably be better off with a lower voltage
> tube (sounds like an uprated 300B like the VV32B would be just
> right for what you want) running at its limits.
>
> John
Yeah, brother. A 300B run hot and hard gives a gennie 8W of heaven. But
WE300B run hot and hard and loaded with 5.5-6K to give under 5W is worth
buying new speakers for.
Andre
--
Andre Jute an...@indigo.ie COMMUNICATION JUTE
--see our pages for music lovers, writers and audiophiles at
http://indigo.ie/~andre/ComJuteF1.html
Acrosound
> > I intend to build a 845-based SET, and would like to run it at about
> > 600 volts instead of the normal rated 1000 V. I really do not need
> > more than about 10 or 12 watts and I figure that this way, I can built
> > the project inexpensively as well, as most all the parts can now be
> > derated. Is a good idea?
> > Also, what would be a good driver tube for the 845 considering the
> > abovementioned conditions?
> > And any references to schematics or specs will be appreciated :-)
If you haven't fully committed to the 845 tube and your interested in a
medium powered (8 watts) 211 SE amplifier please send me
a private email and I will send you out a circuit plan designed by Gordon
Rankin of Wavelength Audio that is in the public domain.
Mike LaFevre
Grover Gardner
845 will make an excellent SE amp. Carry on! :-)
Peter wrote:
> Oops....big oops!
> Just went out and bought me a pair of Chinese 845's (which some of you
> guys have been raving so much about) for what, $60
> Now I have to figure out a circuit to make use of 'em.
>
> Peter
--
Grover Gardner
gro...@postoffice.att.net
André Jute
> Mike's offer notwithstanding, I think you've made a very good purchase. The
> 845 will make an excellent SE amp. Carry on! :-)
>
Grover's right, you know. Many of us think the 211 thin and bright
compared to the 845 which is warm, smokey and very musical. The truth is
that it is appallingly easy to go wrong with the 211 and almost
impossible to build a really bad amp with 845.
Bob C
André Jute wrote in message
<1dijyu9.18b...@ts01-01.bantry.indigo.ie>...
>Grover Gardner <gro...@postoffice.att.net> wrote:
>
>> Mike's offer notwithstanding, I think you've made a very good purchase.
The
>> 845 will make an excellent SE amp. Carry on! :-)
>>
>
>Grover's right, you know. Many of us think the 211 thin and bright
>compared to the 845 which is warm, smokey and very musical. The truth is
>that it is appallingly easy to go wrong with the 211 and almost
>impossible to build a really bad amp with 845.
Grover is right, but you are very wrong. Tubes don't have sounds of their
own! You could not know this because you have never built an amplifier! All
your lies are catching up with you, your loosing it, the end of your game is
near... time for you to head for the bunker...
BC
For the scoop on Andre Jute check out WWW.COMMUNICATION.JUTE
see our pages for the 411 plus lots of fun
http://www.communicationjute.com
Acrosound
Peter wrote:
> Oops....big oops!
> Just went out and bought me a pair of Chinese 845's (which some of you
> guys have been raving so much about) for what, $60
> Now I have to figure out a circuit to make use of 'em.
Peter: the 845 is a very fine choice... just offered info on the 211 cause I
have a nice schematic in the public domain... but, by all means, run with the
845's.
If Grover, he seems to have a better memory than me, or a better organized
library... can help a bit....
In a past issue of Sound Practices JC Morrison published an 845 SE circuit....
but of low power rating... somewhere around 5 watts.... and I *think* you had
previously mentioned that the watts wasn't what you were after.... if this
power
rating is acceptable... then perhaps JC's schematic would be interesting to
you.
Best of with your project:
Mike LaFevre
John Byrns
> Grover is right, but you are very wrong. Tubes don't have sounds of their
> own! You could not know this because you have never built an amplifier! All
> your lies are catching up with you, your loosing it, the end of your game is
> near... time for you to head for the bunker...
Bob, do you really mean this? Triodes sound the same as pentodes? Even
I, with my tin ear can hear the difference between a triode and a pentode,
even if I can't tell a DHT from an IHT, or a triode strapped pentode! I
think you are the one that is loosing it. You might convince me that all
tubes sound the same, and for that matter transistors too, if they are
used in amplifiers with enough negative feedback to cover-up any intrinsic
differences, but I don't want to travel that road, do you?
Regards,
John Byrns
Jerry Wang
I think Bob is focusing on "person" instead of "issue". What a waste of
bandwidth. We don't need this kind of foolsih crap her. On the other hand I
was too foolish to recognize this until someone exposed him of being the
registered owner of "communicationjute.com".
Jerry Wang
In article <jbyrns-1511...@pm3-5-20.chi-focal.enteract.com>,
Peter
Just went out and bought me a pair of Chinese 845's (which some of you
guys have been raving so much about) for what, $60
Now I have to figure out a circuit to make use of 'em.
Peter
Bob C
John Byrns wrote in message ...
>In article <AxI32.745$7I3.480@pm01nn>, "Bob C" <bo...@cwix.com> wrote:
>
>> Grover is right, but you are very wrong. Tubes don't have sounds of their
>> own! You could not know this because you have never built an amplifier!
All
>> your lies are catching up with you, your loosing it, the end of your game
is
>> near... time for you to head for the bunker...
>Bob, do you really mean this? Triodes sound the same as pentodes? Even
>I, with my tin ear can hear the difference between a triode and a pentode,
>even if I can't tell a DHT from an IHT, or a triode strapped pentode! I
>think you are the one that is loosing it. You might convince me that all
>tubes sound the same, and for that matter transistors too, if they are
>used in amplifiers with enough negative feedback to cover-up any intrinsic
>differences, but I don't want to travel that road, do you?
Look John I really do not want to play games with you and the other Jute
representatives... I guess I have to be sure I quote the bull so you will
see it...
Please read the comment below... It has no meaning...As do you...
BC
(((Grover's right, you know. Many of us think the 211 thin and bright
compared to the 845 which is warm, smokey and very musical. The truth is
that it is appallingly easy to go wrong with the 211 and almost
impossible to build a really bad amp with 845.
Andre
****************************************************************************
******
Peter
Now for some specific questions, hope someone can help.
I've seen circuits of SE 845's with different drivers : 300B, 2A3.
I think the Unison Research even uses a 12AX7 driver, although I
wonder how its done. I was thinking of using the EL84/6BQ5. What do
you think, considering that the 845's will be running at 900V (Ok, I'm
convinced that they should not be run at too low a B+, having checked
out the graphs/charts as someone suggested :-)
I am even thinking of using input transformers, if need be.
Peter
p/s : many thanks for the relevant replies and suggestions, not so
many thanks for the personal attacks though. Lets not turn RAT into
RAO, please.
On 15 Nov 1998 17:57:45 GMT, Grover Gardner
<gro...@postoffice.att.net> wrote:
>Mike's offer notwithstanding, I think you've made a very good purchase. The
>845 will make an excellent SE amp. Carry on! :-)
>
Grover Gardner
impedance would probably drive the 845 adequately, but I'm not familiar with
this design. The 6BQ5 in triode mode has a gain of 8, and biases at around 9
volts, allowing only 18 volts input. That only yields a maximum voltage output
of 144 volts, which really isn't enough to drive the 845 grid--it's something
like -125 volts, isn't it? That means you need 250 volts of swing. A
triode-wired EL34 is a better choice.
You can see why the 300B is an attractive driver--350-400 plate volts, allowing
lots of room for linear output to the 845, plus low impedance and high current.
And since it biases at anywhere from -60 to -80 volts, there's plenty of room
for a high gain stage up front. The 2A3 is less attractive because of the usual
limit of 250 volts applied to this tube, coupled with the fact that it is itself
a difficult tube to drive because of the high input capacitance.
The Cary amps use a 6SL7 in SRPP to drive the 300B, which in turn drives the
845. You could do worse! ;-)
Other designs use a 6BX7 or 6BL7 to drive the 845. These are dual triodes
similar to the 6SN7 but with much higher current and transconductance. Like the
6SN7GT they allow for 400 volts maximum on the plate, which again can give you
good headroom for driving the 845. Used in parallel they offer higher gain than
a power tube and pretty low output impedance.
Look at
http://www.infomaniak.ch/~bonavolt/845.htm
for several options for topologies.
Now that you've been convinced to keep the 845s, you can learn their dirty
secret--the need for a lot of drive voltage :-). It shouldn't be difficult,
though, and an EL34 or 300B should compliment the 845 well.
I'm jealous. I've been eager to play with these tubes myself and I look forward
to hearing about the choices you make for your amp.
Peter wrote:
--
Grover Gardner
gro...@postoffice.att.net
Bob C
Grover Gardner wrote in message <364FD739...@postoffice.att.net>...
>You can see why the 300B is an attractive driver--350-400 plate volts,
allowing
>lots of room for linear output to the 845, plus low impedance and high
current.
>And since it biases at anywhere from -60 to -80 volts, there's plenty of
room
>for a high gain stage up front. The 2A3 is less attractive because of the
usual
>limit of 250 volts applied to this tube, coupled with the fact that it is
itself
>a difficult tube to drive because of the high input capacitance.
>
Hi Grover;
Arthur Loesch currently uses a SP 2A3 as a driver in his 845 amp. I believe
the input tube is a 417. I have not built an 845 yet, as I have not needed
the power, but when I do, I will start off with the above combo...
Pete is going to have some fun experimenting and arriving at a mix that he
likes. As far as transformers go, I believe MagneQuest has a new 5K parafeed
that would be perfect for an 845.
Bob
André Jute
> Now that you've been convinced to keep the 845s, you can learn their dirty
> secret--the need for a lot of drive voltage :-).
Not the only one. You also need to put around 20mA of current on the
plate of the driver(s) to be certain the 845 makes it to 20kHz.
There is a fellow called Puechmore or Peuchmore somewhere on the net,
probably available via Claudio Bonavolta's wonderful site already
recommended to you by Grover, who has several 845 driver topologies,
plus informed discussion of his progression from one to the other which
is practically very enlightening.
After a lot of SE amps, he ended up with PP 845 because to him they
simply sound better...
Bob C
André Jute wrote in message
>
>Tubes have sweet spots. For me they generally fall at rather high
>voltages. The 845 has one at 960V and other at 1040V.
This is total bull, there are many very good operating points. please stop
misleading people with fake information. Show us a 845 amp that you have
built...
>low-current end. There is some Japanese support for these low operating
>points (worth 2W! or so at clipping) but when I tried it, the sound did
>not please.
Show proof that you built this amp, pictures... Your dreams do not count...
>Yeah, brother. A 300B run hot and hard gives a gennie 8W of heaven. But
>WE300B run hot and hard and loaded with 5.5-6K to give under 5W is worth
>buying new speakers for.
Just more proof that you have never really built any amps. What in the
world are you talking about " hot and hard" please... No way is the
operating point of 350V -76V grid bias 50mils plate current 5K load 6.2
watts, "hot and hard"... stop posting your foolishness Jute. This is a nice
easy operating point for a 300B in fact this is what I am currently
listening to. I am using the Excellent MagneQuest DS-050 output
transformers. These transformers were originally intended for the 45 tube
running 40mils but sound great with my 300Bs at 50mils... The DS-050 are
very conservatively rated, as are all MagneQuest transformers, so they can
do 50 mills with no problem... These amps are faster than a speeding
bullet...
Bob
Look up in the sky... It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's...
http://www.communicationjute.com For truth Justice and the American Way...
André Jute
No fewer than three fellow-RATs wrote to me wondering if I had seen
Bubba's response to this remark by me:
> >Yeah, brother. A 300B run hot and hard gives a gennie 8W of heaven. But
> >WE300B run hot and hard and loaded with 5.5-6K to give under 5W is worth
> >buying new speakers for.
Bob C <bo...@cwix.com> wrote:
> Just more proof that you have never really built any amps. What in the
> world are you talking about " hot and hard" please... No way is the
> operating point of 350V -76V grid bias 50mils plate current 5K load 6.2
> watts, "hot and hard"... stop posting your foolishness Jute. This is a nice
> easy operating point for a 300B in fact this is what I am currently
> listening to. I am using the Excellent MagneQuest DS-050 output
> transformers. These transformers were originally intended for the 45 tube
> running 40mils but sound great with my 300Bs at 50mils... The DS-050 are
> very conservatively rated, as are all MagneQuest transformers, so they can
> do 50 mills with no problem... These amps are faster than a speeding
> bullet...
>
> Bob
>
> Look up in the sky... It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's...
>
> http://www.communicationjute.com For truth Justice and the American Way...
In gratitude for all the times Bubba has so graciously shared his wisdom
with me, I have taken the trouble, free, gratis and without charge or
obligation, to draw his amazing amp's transfer function for him, because
he seems entirely unaware of the 7.6% distortion he is listening to. See
truth, Justice and the American way at:
http://indigo.ie/~andre/Humor.html
Thank you, Bubba, for making my point so wonderfully well: if you owned
a real transformer instead of one of LaFevre's Magnequest Toytown jokes,
you could listen to your music at a bigger blast with one quarter the
distortion you have now.
André Jute
Always wondered why Michael LaFevre (Magnequest Transformers.
Philadelphia) puts the title of the fake, site which he and Bubba
criminally made with my name on it, in the subject line. Now we'll find
out.
Bob C
André Jute wrote in message
>Friends:
>
>No fewer than three fellow-RATs wrote to me wondering if I had seen
>Bubba's response to this remark by me:
Of course little Andy, tell us more lies... How's Bill May?
According to Little Andy he Knows more than Western Electric. The operating
point I posted happens to be one of the lowest distortion suggested
operating points in the Western Electric Tube Manual. But of course Jute
knows better. What's even funnier is that he proves even more and more that
he has never built an amplifier. He picks 6K as a load... Tell us what
manufacture makes 6K SE transformers Mr. Jute??? Tango, Tamura, Hammond,
Nature Sound, UBT, Lundhal, (who you so ripped off for 12 pieces of iron)?
Tell us Mr. Fool who knows more than Western Electric. What's also very
interesting, Jute puts up a phony graphic, in an attempt to insult me, but
alas he fools himself. If he is so quick to post a phony graphic, why not
post some more graphics??? Pictures of his Real McCoy amps and $200K
speakers. Why not post answers to the very simple questions he has been
asked over and over again? Where is the Proof Jute???
>Thank you, Bubba, for making my point so wonderfully well: if you owned
>a real transformer
Sure Jute...Like the ones you scammed Mr. Lundhal for? He is a decent man
who did not deserve to be scammed by you... Please see Mr. Lundhal's letter
below...
****************************************************************************
I was contacted by Mr. Jute in January 1997. He told me he planned to write
a book about tube amplifiers and he asked if we could supply the
transformers for the project. His contribution would be a schematic of a
high quality tube amplifier using our components.
As I was looking for schematics of this type to promote our transformers
and as his home page looked o.k. I agreed to his proposal and sent in all
12 (mains, mains choke, interstage, output) transformers.
We had some correspondence in August-97 about the amplifier and the book
and according to Mr. Jute he was almost finished.
Since then I have not been in touch with Mr. Jute. I have however observed
some discussions in the rec.audio.tube (or rec.audio.high-end) newsgroup
and I have not enjoyed much of it.
- Per Lundahl
****************************************************************************
**********
BC
Bob C
André Jute wrote in message
>fake, site which he and Bubba
>criminally made with my name on it, in the subject line. Now we'll find
>out.
I think you are mistaken... http://www.communicationjute.com is a
registered domain with interNIC. I am the legal owner of this domain name.
Criminal??? How do you come by this? Please show information to support
this phony charge.
In the JUTE dictionary are the words "under construction" illegal?
What happened to your vigorous defense of free speech and free press? I
guess you think that they only apply to liars and thieves like yourself...
BC
Acrosound
offered the following technical analysis:
>In gratitude for all the times Bubba has so graciously shared his wisdom
>with me, I have taken the trouble, free, gratis and without charge or
>obligation, to draw his amazing amp's transfer function for him, because
>he seems entirely unaware of the 7.6% distortion he is listening to.
Now... funny... if we look up in the published WE data sheets here is what they
got for the operating points which Bob C suggested.
plate volts 350
grid volts -76
plate current 50 madc
load resistance 5000
power out 6.2 watts
2ncd order distortion -30DB or 3.2%
3rd order distortion -45DB or .56%
So do you believe Western Electric research or Andre Jute foolishness?
Mike LaFevre
Acrosound
batteries?
>Always wondered why Michael LaFevre (Magnequest Transformers.
>Philadelphia) puts the title of the fake, site which he and <perjorative
>reference deleted>
>criminally made with my name on it, in the subject line. Now we'll find
>out.
I think someone has already posted the information on the registration of this
following site:
http://www.communicationjute.com
if I remember right the sole registrant was the in the name of the person
referenced
above in your quoted text but which I had to delete
since you refer to him perjoratively. In any case it appears that the domain
name use is
wholly legitimate via the registration of such domain name with InterNIC?
What acts of criminality are you asserting? Last I looked the site was
absolutely devoid of any
content whatsoever with the exception of a notice saying "under construction".
I also noted a quotation of yours in a response on a different thread wherein
you advised:
Just a few hours ago on this very same day (11/17/98 12:49AM) you said the
following:
>Yeah, and preferably in a court of law, where this sort of crap belongs,
>rather than by character assassination as is done now by LaFevre....
although your quote further fans the flames by no need to mention my name if
you took
your own advice seriously. If you beleive that there are criminal acts
regarding this website
then why don't you take the appropiate legal action? But ... again.... I fail
to see anything
criminal on this site at all... since the only text on it just simply states
that the site is under
construction.
And why would you put my name up and imply that I am the domain name registrant
when in
fact the records clearly indicate that in fact I am not.
I have noted however that ever since this website had been announced that you
have been on
a reign of flames unlike any I have ever seen in the public newsgroups.
And yet.. what could possibly be the basis for this "falling off one's
medication" and goin
completely beserk?
I would appreciate it if you would stop your slanders about me...
Mike LaFevre
fdeu...@blackrock.com
an...@indigo.ie (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Jute?=) wrote:
> In gratitude for all the times Bubba has so graciously shared his wisdom
> with me, I have taken the trouble, free, gratis and without charge or
> obligation, to draw his amazing amp's transfer function for him, because
> he seems entirely unaware of the 7.6% distortion he is listening to.
Hey, wow, that's impressive: how on earth did you manage to come up with the
transfer function of BobC's *whole* amp simply on the basis of his OT and
operating point?????
Clearly, as I said so many, many times before, you are completely oblivious to
the all-important connection between the driver stage(s) and the output
transformer impedance: an amp is far, far more than simply an operating point
and a transformer!!!
Then again, I suppose this post explains the whole history of nastiness here,
and on JoeNet: Andre Jute simply wants to have a war on operating points!
Hey, you there, are you running your tubes at a well known operating point,
with a standard OT primary impedance? STOP, Jute says! You FOOL! Don't you
know that Jute has determined a much better OT impedance and operating point
for your amp?! And don't you *dare* to attempt to discuss the issue: we all
know that those who would question Andre The (pseudo-) Giant are simply
Thugs....!!
> Thank you, Bubba, for making my point so wonderfully well: if you owned
> a real transformer instead of one of LaFevre's Magnequest Toytown jokes,
> you could listen to your music at a bigger blast with one quarter the
> distortion you have now.
Bubba you FOOL! Don't you know that you should buy a *real* amp, a RealMcCoy
amp?! If you can't buy a Real McCoy amp, you should at least build an amp
that complies with the Official Jute-Sanctioned Operating Conditions -- and
you *MUST* use a Jute-Approved OT!!!
Mike, I think this sheds some light on how to end Andre's MQ-bashing: you
need to start producing a line of Jute-Approved transformers. I suppose
Andre will be wanting you to license his world-renown designs, and, of
course, the "Real McCoy" trademark -- at vast expense, no doubt. Hmmmm, I
wonder if this is what all this nastiness has been about, all these years....
-frank
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Acrosound
predicament Andre Jute has gotten himself in has anything to do with the
outcomes of his Bill May xfmr testing...
though of course, to date, Andre refuses to provide any real, independent,
independently verifiable evidence of actually having the "Units Under Test" in
his actual possession (excpting of course the freebie Lundahl's). We have
asked for this indpendent proof for many months which Andre is wholly mute
on... no answers from Andre.
Notice in the article that there is not one iota of hard data. No primary
impedances, no inductances listed, no FR charts, no DCR's, no actual
information on the test circuits that were employed. Heck even the prices of
the units have been omitted. A lot of platitudes about consumer behavior and
then a lot of unsupported conclusions.
I challenge anyone on RAT to go to the site and show me the hard data gathered
from this "test" procedure \sequence.
What's going on here? Is this Andre's "payment plan"... stick it to Mikey my
mortal enemie...while
at the same time providing some benefit to the guy who I mooched stuff of of
for free and have failed (13 months in arrears) to live up to my end of the
agreement? Interestingly the Lundahl's came out on top of the Andre \ Bill May
fiasco....
Tough questions.... yes... apologies to all RAT's.... but again... if your
going to make charges and slander products (such as Andre has been incessantly
doing about us) then logical questions (given the evidence available) should be
more than fair. Plus any honest objective reviewer would simply provide all
the data and make known through full disclosure any conflicts of interest or
personal animosities that they harbor.
Mr. Lundahl's letter as posted on this thread:
John Byrns
> According to Little Andy he Knows more than Western Electric. The operating
> point I posted happens to be one of the lowest distortion suggested
> operating points in the Western Electric Tube Manual. But of course Jute
> knows better. What's even funnier is that he proves even more and more that
> he has never built an amplifier. He picks 6K as a load... Tell us what
> manufacture makes 6K SE transformers Mr. Jute??? Tango, Tamura, Hammond,
> Nature Sound, UBT, Lundhal, (who you so ripped off for 12 pieces of iron)?
> Tell us Mr. Fool who knows more than Western Electric. What's also very
> interesting, Jute puts up a phony graphic, in an attempt to insult me, but
> alas he fools himself. If he is so quick to post a phony graphic, why not
> post some more graphics??? Pictures of his Real McCoy amps and $200K
> speakers. Why not post answers to the very simple questions he has been
> asked over and over again? Where is the Proof Jute???
Well let's see, as I remember the Western Electric 300A/B data sheets,
they provided distortion data for every operating point you could imagine,
a couple of pages of one liners on each operating point giving the
magnitude of each harmonic. Just about all load impedance's, plate
current's, and plate supply Voltages were included. I can't find my copy
of the WE data right now, but I would be very surprised if they didn't
show several operating points for a 6k load. Your operating point may be
the lowest distortion one on all the pages, but where is it written that
the lowest distortion always sounds better? And what's the problem with
6k transformers? Even if transformers with 6k primary's are uncommon,
André could have easily had a transformer with a 6k primary custom wound.
For that matter, the load impedance is hardly a precise thing, did you
ever look at the impedance curve of a typical speaker? And why must we
bow down at the foot of Western Electric? I don't remember any notes in
the WE data specifying which operating points sound better. Until you
have tried André's suggested operating point, how do you really know how
it sounds? The Western Electric data is for simple harmonic distortion,
there are other distortion mechanisms at work which WE didn't spec. Do
you know that André's operating point doesn't excel because it minimizes
some more complicated distortion mechanism, that WE didn't even measure,
and couldn't easily measure when they designed the 300A/B? Until you have
built and listened to both amplifiers, I don't think you are qualified to
tell us which sounds better. We can all fantasize just as well as you,
because that is all you are doing without objective and subjective test
results to back up your claims.
Regards,
John Byrns
John Byrns
> In article <1dimlub.1or...@ts01-06.bantry.indigo.ie>,
> an...@indigo.ie (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Jute?=) wrote:
> > In gratitude for all the times Bubba has so graciously shared his wisdom
> > with me, I have taken the trouble, free, gratis and without charge or
> > obligation, to draw his amazing amp's transfer function for him, because
> > he seems entirely unaware of the 7.6% distortion he is listening to.
>
> Hey, wow, that's impressive: how on earth did you manage to come up with the
> transfer function of BobC's *whole* amp simply on the basis of his OT and
> operating point?????
>
> Clearly, as I said so many, many times before, you are completely oblivious to
> the all-important connection between the driver stage(s) and the output
> transformer impedance: an amp is far, far more than simply an operating point
> and a transformer!!!
Hi Frank,
You could make a positive contribution to the unwashed masses here on
rec.audio.tubes by explaining to us the various connections between the
"driver stage(s) and the output transformer impedance". How about it,
this sounds like an interesting topic. You might have a few ideas I
haven't thought of, and I am sure the less experienced would learn a lot,
so why don't you give it a try.
Regards,
John Byrns
Bob C
John Byrns wrote in message ...
wrote:
>
>> According to Little Andy he Knows more than Western Electric. The
operating
>> point I posted happens to be one of the lowest distortion suggested
>> operating points in the Western Electric Tube Manual. But of course Jute
>> knows better. What's even funnier is that he proves even more and more
that
>> he has never built an amplifier. He picks 6K as a load... Tell us what
>> manufacture makes 6K SE transformers Mr. Jute??? Tango, Tamura, Hammond,
>> Nature Sound, UBT, Lundhal, (who you so ripped off for 12 pieces of
iron)?
>> Tell us Mr. Fool who knows more than Western Electric. What's also very
>> interesting, Jute puts up a phony graphic, in an attempt to insult me,
but
>> alas he fools himself. If he is so quick to post a phony graphic, why not
>> post some more graphics??? Pictures of his Real McCoy amps and $200K
>> speakers. Why not post answers to the very simple questions he has been
>> asked over and over again? Where is the Proof Jute???
>
>
> Your operating point may be
>the lowest distortion one on all the pages, but where is it written that
>the lowest distortion always sounds better?
Never said it does sound better. If you were being honest about this John,
you would be asking Jute these questions. He is constantly making false
claims, ask him for proof, I dare you John, ask him... Prove you are the
honest person you say you are.
>And what's the problem with
>6k transformers? Even if transformers with 6k primary's are uncommon,
Never said there was a problem. You can use whatever you like. When he makes
his phony statements they are so destructive. It is important that people
realize, especially for ones who might be new to this, that what he is
saying is phony. He has not built anything, so his "recommendations" are
bull. It would be very bad if due to his fake information, someone spent
"real" money. Let us not forget that he does not, he scams people for
things...
>André could have easily had a transformer with a 6k primary custom wound.
Ask him for proof, I dare you... Lets see what you get from him...
>For that matter, the load impedance is hardly a precise thing, did you
>ever look at the impedance curve of a typical speaker?
This is true, I never claimed it was a precise thing, tell Jute this, he is
the one who made up phony distortion numbers...
>And why must we
>bow down at the foot of Western Electric?
Never said this... You can Stick with Jute Electric...
>I don't remember any notes in
>the WE data specifying which operating points sound better. Until you
>have tried André's suggested operating point, how do you really know how
>it sounds?
Here's your chance, John... You try them...
>The Western Electric data is for simple harmonic distortion,
>there are other distortion mechanisms at work which WE didn't spec.
I know this, tell your buddy, he seems not to.
> Do
>you know that André's operating point doesn't excel because it minimizes
>some more complicated distortion mechanism, that WE didn't even measure,
>and couldn't easily measure when they designed the 300A/B? Until you have
>built and listened to both amplifiers,
Why don't you ask him to send you one of the Real McCoy amps for
"independent" review...
>I don't think you are qualified to
>tell us which sounds better.
I believe you have to tell your buddy this, since it his his claim.
> We can all fantasize just as well as you,
>because that is all you are doing without objective and subjective test
>results to back up your claims.
You obviously are functioning in the "Reverse Jute Universe" He is the one
with the "claims" ask him to back them up with proof. And just to make this
CLEAR for you John I have not made any claims. Why are YOU making false
statements?
BC
Ned Carlson
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Jute?=) wrote:
>http://indigo.ie/~andre/Humor.html
(Note: I ain't been wallowing thru the 1000's of lines of
text ref Mr. Jute..I suspect 95% of all readers haven't either,tho...
so maybe I missed this being publicized earlier)
Hey, Andre, what happened to your site
at foundmark.com ? Comes back not only
404'd, but a big disclaimer stating:
>For all pages (except those belonging to the Communication Jute site) contact Foundation
>Marketing.
>For all pages belonging only to the Communication Jute site. This site is no longer maintained on
>this server.
Foundation Marketing is based in Cork. Say it ain't so, the
ever-tolerant Irish really booted you? I'm sure the cheque was
lost in the mail. Please tell me it's all a mistake, that you really
live in a castle with a T1 connect, not a sod hut with a magneto
party line phone for a dialup.
>Thank you, Bubba, for making my point so wonderfully well: if you owned
>a real transformer instead of one of LaFevre's Magnequest Toytown jokes,
>you could listen to your music at a bigger blast with one quarter the
>distortion you have now.
Heck, I just talked to an OEM whose comments about Mikey's
transformers included such adjectives as "fantastic" "amazing"
"flabbergasting"...he's quite a cynic, and the comments weren't
solicted, either.
Sounds like you'd better enroll in Remedial Magnetics 101, Andre.
If I were Mikey, I wouldn't screw around: I'd open a Dublin branch
office and put a barrister on retainer.
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics "where da tubes are!"
2225 W Roscoe Chicago, IL, 60618 USA
ph 773-871-7459 fax 773-871-7938
12:30 to 8 PM CT, (1830-0200 UTC) 12:30-5 Sat, Closed Wed & Sun
http://www.triodeel.com
Your Start Page for Tube and Tube Amp info on the net...
http://www.triodeel.com/tlinks.htm
fdeu...@blackrock.com
jby...@enteract.com (John Byrns) wrote:
> Well let's see, as I remember the Western Electric 300A/B data sheets,
> they provided distortion data for every operating point you could imagine,
> a couple of pages of one liners on each operating point giving the
> magnitude of each harmonic. Just about all load impedance's, plate
> current's, and plate supply Voltages were included. I can't find my copy
> of the WE data right now, but I would be very surprised if they didn't
> the lowest distortion one on all the pages, but where is it written that
> the lowest distortion always sounds better?
John, you are completely misrepresenting what Bob has said; Bob is *NOT* the
one claiming he has the best amp/operating point/etc. Rather, it is Andre
who is criticizing Bob's choice of operating point and transformer impedance!
Further, Andre, though he has never heard Bob's amp, is claiming that Bob's
amp generates too much distortion, and is thus unlistenable. Bob has chosen
an operating point and transformer impedance for his amp that are standard,
well-known values specified by WE, yet Andre has ridiculed him for those
choices, without ever having heard the amp (!), or even having seen the full
schematic(!!). Further, Andre doesn't know Bob's taste in music, his room
size/layout, the kind of speaks Bob uses, the signal source for the amp, etc,
etc. (!!!)
If we agree that these things, beyond simply the output tube/operating
point/transformer impedance, are all important determinants to the sound of
an amp -- and I think all of us in this conference would agree on this --
then we really need to ask how Andre's ridiculing of Bob is at all
defensible. Can such ridicule over operating point choice be at all
justified? Can we say that Andre's behavior here promotes open exchange of
ideas on this forum? Of course not: to ridicule and criticize someone on the
basis of operating point, transformer impedance, transformer choice, amp
design, etc, etc is counter productive, and runs counter to this group's
purpose, and must not be accepted!
> And what's the problem with
> 6k transformers? Even if transformers with 6k primary's are uncommon,
> André could have easily had a transformer with a 6k primary custom wound.
> For that matter, the load impedance is hardly a precise thing, did you
> ever look at the impedance curve of a typical speaker?
Absolutely! And yet Jute claims that Bob's 5k load impedance is an absurd
choice which causes too much distortion. Instead of 5k, Jute claims that 6k
is essential to decent sound!
> And why must we
> bow down at the foot of Western Electric? I don't remember any notes in
> the WE data specifying which operating points sound better.
Bob never said his amp sounded better: go have a look at the DejaNews archive
if you don't believe me. Bob *did* say that his amp sounded good, to him.
It was Jute who claimed that the amp, with its "toytown trannies" generates
too much distortion!
> Until you
> have tried André's suggested operating point, how do you really know how
> it sounds? The Western Electric data is for simple harmonic distortion,
> there are other distortion mechanisms at work which WE didn't spec.
Right: the amp is more than simply a tube/operating point/transformer
impedance. Unfortunately, Andre ignored all other contributors to the sound,
and simply critisized Bob's amp, *without*having*any*other*information* beyond
simply the output tube, operating point, and transformer primary impedance!
> Do
> you know that André's operating point doesn't excel because it minimizes
> some more complicated distortion mechanism, that WE didn't even measure,
> and couldn't easily measure when they designed the 300A/B? Until you have
> built and listened to both amplifiers, I don't think you are qualified to
> tell us which sounds better.
John, I think by now, the issue is clear: this point should be directed at
Andre, not Bob! Remember, it was Andre who cirticized Bob's choice of
operating point, NOT the other way 'round....
> We can all fantasize just as well as you,
> because that is all you are doing without objective and subjective test
> results to back up your claims.
Again, I think perhaps you need to ask Andre to back up his criticism. Of
course, Andre's history of reliable objective and subjective testing is
checkered to say the least....
-frank, who thinks that John might need to step back, take a breather, and
actually read who said what (for a change) before shooting his keyboard
off....
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
André Jute
> In article <72rhjm$7mu$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>, "Bob C" <bo...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
> > According to Little Andy he Knows more than Western Electric. The operating
> > point I posted happens to be one of the lowest distortion suggested
> > operating points in the Western Electric Tube Manual. But of course Jute
> > knows better. What's even funnier is that he proves even more and more that
> > he has never built an amplifier. He picks 6K as a load... Tell us what
> > manufacture makes 6K SE transformers Mr. Jute??? Tango, Tamura, Hammond,
> > Nature Sound, UBT, Lundhal, (who you so ripped off for 12 pieces of iron)?
> > Tell us Mr. Fool who knows more than Western Electric. What's also very
> > interesting, Jute puts up a phony graphic, in an attempt to insult me, but
> > alas he fools himself. If he is so quick to post a phony graphic, why not
> > post some more graphics??? Pictures of his Real McCoy amps and $200K
> > speakers. Why not post answers to the very simple questions he has been
> > asked over and over again? Where is the Proof Jute???
>
>
> Well let's see, as I remember the Western Electric 300A/B data sheets,
> they provided distortion data for every operating point you could imagine,
> a couple of pages of one liners on each operating point giving the
> magnitude of each harmonic. Just about all load impedance's, plate
> current's, and plate supply Voltages were included. I can't find my copy
> of the WE data right now, but I would be very surprised if they didn't
> show several operating points for a 6k load.
Oh, WE and STC both show 6K load, and WE shows a 6K5 load. I like the
way Bubba talks of the WE sheets. Unless he has actual WE 300B, he'd be
better off looking at the STC suggested operating conditions sheet
because Chinese tubes are copies of the 4300B made by STC, which AFAIK
was a workalike, not a gennie "chinese" copy of WE 300B at all. (A
"chinese" copy, for non-anglophone RATs is a precisely exact copy.)
So Bubba reads off the WE sheet and expects tubes which are (a) a carbon
copy of (b) a reverse engineered patent evasion job to work the same
way. He's only three generations off-base!
And for a year he's been running around calling me ignorant!
*There are no 6K loads shown on my graph.*
In fact, my graph at http://indigo.ie/~andre/Humor.html shows Bubba's
amp at his specified 5K load. It has 7.61% distortion as can easily be
measured; I made the graphic large so that anyone who cares can check
measurements and the calculations, including Bubba if he knows how. If
he doesn't, there is an article on my netsite which explains how at
http://indigo.ie/~andre/RealMcCoy.html
Furthermore, my alternative high current suggestion also shows a 5K
load, NOT 6K, because I am making the point that if Bubba throws out his
40mA Magnequest Toytown tranny, he can move up to real power at 1.85%
distortion, i.e. more power at less than a quarter the distortion. The
point is that anytime you slide the loadline up to a higher current, you
move the bottom end of it out of the puddle of distortion where the Eg
curves bend at their lower ends.
It's not rocket science.
>Your operating point may be
> the lowest distortion one on all the pages,
It isn't, as I have demonstrated. Bubba may believe it. I make no
further comment on Bubba's beliefs.
>but where is it written that
> the lowest distortion always sounds better? And what's the problem with
> 6k transformers? Even if transformers with 6k primary's are uncommon,
> André could have easily had a transformer with a 6k primary custom wound.
No need. I have outstanding 5K6 90mA SE trannies already. Bubba might
think the precise impedance matters but anyone who ever measured a
tranny in action knows it goes walkabout all over the place. 5K6 for
practical purposes is as good as 6K.
Anyway, Bubba just picks 6K to be awkward. Lotta 6K trannies listed out
there, including by Bubba's friend the kitchen table winder.
> For that matter, the load impedance is hardly a precise thing, did you
> ever look at the impedance curve of a typical speaker?
Sorry, I didn't see you already covered the point. I'll leave it stand.
> And why must we
> bow down at the foot of Western Electric?
It is a very important point to understand that to the Joenetters the WE
suggested operating points is holy. The reason it is holy is that
LaFevre wound trannies to suit those operating points. If you are
bolshie enough to choose your own operating points, his trannies will
not be suitable. You will shop elsewhere. He will lose money. Tsch!
Tsch!
There are articles on my netsite explaining some of the hidden
assumptions behind the WE (and all other contemporaneous) suggested
operating conditions. Those people had different axioms to the ones we
assume today; our goals and standards are fundamentally different. The
*only* reliable authority, as Russ hinted the other day, is your own
measurements and calculations directly off the Ia-Ep curves. Guys like
Bubba and LaFevre who regurgitate these recommended operating conditions
sheets like scripture are dangerous to your wallet.
Notice that once again they do not argue my numbers but try to
assassinate my character to throw doubt on the truths I am trying to
share with them.
Westrex, the modern firm making current WE tubes, get around this
problem rather neatly (without having to deny part of their history
before cockcrow) by giving away a set of curves drawn for each
individual 300B with that tube, which must account for quite a few bucks
worth of labour and overheads but are most definitely worth it to the
buyer. The curves for my own WE300B are at
http://indigo.ie/~andre/RealMcCoy2.html and clearly allow for the ne
plus ultra of custom design.
>I don't remember any notes in
> the WE data specifying which operating points sound better.
Generally speaking, I don't think they cared. Their purpose was probably
to discover the lowest dissipation point that would not exceed an
arbitrary distortion level. These ancient 300B went to the mother and
other phone companies as line regulators, and a few into mainly PP amps
leased to cinemas under service contracts. (The now-worshipped SE 91A
was the el-cheapo cut-down version for cinemas too poor to afford the
real -- PP --- thing.) The first quality they were interested in was
longevity, not sound quality. Ascribing sound quality aspirations to
those recommended operating points is retrospective wishful thinking
from groupies (Bubba) and guys with dollar signs in their eyes
(LaFevre).
>Until you
> have tried André's suggested operating point, how do you really know how
> it sounds? The Western Electric data is for simple harmonic distortion,
> there are other distortion mechanisms at work which WE didn't spec. Do
> you know that André's operating point doesn't excel because it minimizes
> some more complicated distortion mechanism, that WE didn't even measure,
> and couldn't easily measure when they designed the 300A/B? Until you have
> built and listened to both amplifiers, I don't think you are qualified to
> tell us which sounds better.
Well, this sounds plausible, but even without it as an additional
argument, if an amp with 7.61% of 2nd harmonic sounds better than one
with 1.85% 2nd harmonic (and much less at equivalent power), I will eat
one or both of those amps. Naw, leave Bubba with his self-deluding
little sneer that my graph is a phony. If in all the time Bubba has had
this amp he hasn't heard 7.61% distortion (minimum, as Deutschmann will
be forced to explain to us if he takes up your invitation to explain the
cascade transfer function), he isn't worth bothering with.
And I was right to decline to build him a custom amp on the ground that
he has no culture. It is quite amazing that Bubba, who has been
screaming for ten long, long months that I am an incompetent, has not
even discovered that his amp delivers nearly 8% distortion, say a
twelfth of his sound stolen by his own incompetence. Christ, a horrid
thought just struck me: Bubba, you didn't perchance buy your amp from
any of the list of designers your pal LaFevre so proudly claims uses his
transformers, did you?
>We can all fantasize just as well as you,
> because that is all you are doing without objective and subjective test
> results to back up your claims.
Bubba, would you like me to come measure your amp the next time I'm in
NY and see what I can do about straigthening it out? Or you could ask
one of the NY RATS. There's no point in pride if your music isn't right.
> Regards,
>
> John Byrns
John Byrns
> John, you are completely misrepresenting what Bob has said; Bob is *NOT* the
> one claiming he has the best amp/operating point/etc. Rather, it is Andre
> who is criticizing Bob's choice of operating point and transformer impedance!
Frank,
You have this backwards, this is one of the techniques that the guy's from
the JoeNet use constantly against non believers here on rec.audio.tubes.
When someone they disagree with makes a statement they don't like, they
claim it is false, without giving any details of what they claim to be
wrong with it, and then state that it is the responsibility of the one
originally making the statement to prove it true, even in the face of
empty claims that it is false.
André has made a statement that Bob disagrees with, I think it rests on
Bob's shoulders to prove his claim that André's statement is false, rather
than being André's responsibility to defend his statement against all
claims that is false, no matter how ill founded they may be. André's
obligation to defend his statement only starts when Bob presents a
reasonable argument that it is false.
Regards,
John Byrns
John Byrns
Hi André,
Excellent post, you really nailed it with this one, only a couple of
places with one wheel off.
André's original post deleted to save bandwidth.
Regards,
John Byrns
Bob C
André Jute wrote in message
>
> Unless he has actual WE 300B, he'd be
>better off looking at the STC suggested operating conditions sheet
>because Chinese tubes are copies of the 4300B made by STC,
Real Westerns... Not stolen like yours...
>*There are no 6K loads shown on my graph.*
I guess you forgot you original phony statement about 5.5-6K 5 watts, low
and hot, what bullshit...
>
>There are articles on my netsite explaining some of the hidden
>assumptions behind the WE (and all other contemporaneous) suggested
>operating conditions.
You keep telling everyone about articles on your phony pages HOW ABOUT SOME
PICTURES, HOW ABOUT SOME PROOF. Show your Real McCoy amps, $200K horn
speakers, Bill Mays body...
>Notice that once again they do not argue my numbers but try to
>assassinate my character to throw doubt on the truths I am trying to
>share with them.
Andre Jute uses the word... TRUTH... BTW How's Timmie???
For the truth on JUTE it's http://www.communicationjute.com
Acrosound
>Notice that once again they do not argue my numbers but try to
>assassinate my character to throw doubt on the truths I am trying to
>share with them.
Andre, my dear we did provide data to show that your assertion that Bob
C's amp has (in your words) 7.6% distortion.... we'll do it again....
>plate volts 350
>grid volts -76
>plate current 50 madc
>load resistance 5000
>power out 6.2 watts
>2ncd order distortion -30DB or 3.2%
>3rd order distortion -45DB or .56%
a far cry from your made up numbers... but this all misses the point and is
simply a plot by you to argue what appears to me to be bullshit... and for you
to unload your venom on me about the quality of my products.
anyone can make up their own minds if they are designing a circuit... and
Western Electric themselves listed over 40 sets of recommended operating
datasets that includes the plate volts, plate current, grid bias, load
resistance,
power output, second harmonic, and third harmonic.
despite Andre's flaming contentions no one (me included big time) is telling
anyone
else what they should or should not select as operating points... or what
sounds
best... but Andre seems hellbent on using this as a ruse to attack our
products. For most RAT'ers
this (selction of operating points) is actually academic since they are so
often
interested in complete amps ready built, or kits, or the old classic amps,
or...
I know we are a divergent group....
And any pleadings (by Andre) to dismiss the entirety of the body of Western
Electric engineering
on the 300B tube (which they invented) is __________ (fill in the blank). To
suppose
that an Andre Jute (no engineering background) can outsmart the many thousands
of
man hours and research by a full time professional staff... who produced over
15,000
pages of engineering support for this one tube type is ________ (fill in the
blank). Take
advantage of this engineering and use it musically and creatively to build a
really great
amp for yourself....
And look carefully at the man asking you to throw off the Western Electric
"shackles"...
Is this the same man who claims that he designed the Chrysler hemi head on an
old
vacuum tube computer in just three weeks.... well, I guess the 300B must have
been about
a three minute study for you.... ask him where his exhaustive data and research
is housed....
oh... which leads us to your charge that there is a character assassination
going on....
Andre....it is your own pen feuled by your hatred, vengeance, and manical ego
that leads
to your "character assassination". It is your claim of having invented the
Chrysler hemi
head, of having been a political aid to the Prime Minister of SA and
negotiating directly
with Nelson Mandella for his release... it is your pen that has crafted your
"self-invention"....
after claiming to have made and sold so many amps (your words) and $200,000
lowther snail
horns, and fabricating the "killer bee saga" on this group to malign another
member... all of
these are fair game... they invite one to assess your credibility, integrity,
and honesty. If that's
rough I say "slow down your pen" and go to therapy to rid yourself of the
demons which feul
that assassin's pen....
Mike LaFevre
Acrosound
>Unless he has actual WE 300B, he'd be
>better off looking at the STC suggested operating conditions sheet
>because Chinese tubes are copies of the 4300B made by STC, which AFAIK
>was a workalike, not a gennie "chinese" copy of WE 300B at all.
And if you use Andre's logic ya better make sure of the generation of Chinese
300B that you have.... they have made so many versions... not just the 4300B
as andre suggests... but don't work up a sweat... tubes work very well with
good quality engineering and any set of plate curves either reflects the
behavior of an individual tube under test (if you have your own tektronix
curve tracer you can make your own) or the plate curves have been produced
using a bogey tube (one that is representative of it's kind).... as John
Byrns,
Frank D, Bob C, Grover and others have pointed out... good designs are not
gained by simply being slavish (a bookworm) to a set of plate curves... real
world amps operate in far different conditions in which the plate curves
(whether for an individual tube or a bogey tube) were drawn from. Plate
curves are a starting point no more, no less. Real world practical (ya
actually
make them) amplifier design relies on a bit of art and science. It is the
experience
of the designer and the "sound" quality that he seeks that guides the
experienced
amp builder not a blind allegiance to picking an operating point with the
lowest
distortion.
If "lowest distortion" equalled best sound then perhaps we would all be diving
for those Krell amps that Andre threw off the yacht's stern while installing a
set of his Real McCoy amps... yeah.... don't pick on me.... Andre actually said
it...
but the point is... if all you wanted was "low distortion" and this were the
singular
barometer of sound quality you probably would not be in tube amps in the first
place. Alternately, if you did insist on "low distortion" as being the sign of
a
great amp and also had to use tubes there are a range of distortion cancelling
circuit techniques (or even the use of global feedback) that would dwarf the
relatively minor differences of distortion amounts btwn many of the various
operating points in a complete dataset like Western Electric published.
>And for a year he's been running around calling me ignorant!
You don't appear to be helping your case at all... but maybe we can throw in
arrogant.
>In fact, my graph at http://indigo.ie/~andre/Humor.html shows Bubba's
>amp at his specified 5K load. It has 7.61% distortion
and here is what the incompetent engineers at Western Electric gave for Bob
C's dataset:
plate volts 350
grid bias -76
plate current 50
load resistance 5000
power 6.2 watts
second harmonic -30DB ( 3.2% )
third harmonic - 45DB ( .56% )
a far cry off of Andre's made up numbers....
>.... if Bob C. (a very nice and intelligent man) throws out his
>40mA Magnequest Toytown tranny, he can move up to real power at 1.85%
>distortion, i.e. more power at less than a quarter the distortion.
SEE ABOVE... Hey... you still never answered me on what the jute torroidal
SE output has for primary inductance... you know the one on your website...
with your name in the part number... something like VDV-JUTE-XXXX.
>It's not rocket science.
Your right Andre... it is not rocket science... but a praticum of the arts
and sciences which real amplifier designers hone with experience and
knowledge gained from actually building amplifiers... and nowing how
to optimize a circuit in the real world rather than imagining (pretending)
that they can get great sound simply by picking a curve off of a sheet of
paper... they realize that the curves don't describe the real world... that the
curves are only a starting point... they might also be sophisticated enough
to know that (as John Byrns said) put a load on the circuit... a speaker
load...
and all bets are off.... or at least modified... this kind of practical
experience
comes from building real world amps not REAL MCCOY imagineriums (coined a
new word, heh?), which no one has ever seen, andre only dreams about them.....
>Anyway, Bubba just picks 6K to be awkward. Lotta 6K trannies listed out
>there, including by Bubba's friend the kitchen table winder.
can anyone help me out with a good one for this twit.....
enough for one evening.... good night all....
Mike LaFevre
Acrosound
>You have this backwards, this is one of the techniques that the guy's from
>the JoeNet use constantly against non believers here on rec.audio.tubes.
John.. invoking the spirit of the thugs... the joes... a purely disingenious
rhetorical tactic... maybe the "joes" space invaded John' s body in the middle
of the night...
>When someone they disagree with makes a statement they don't like, they
>claim it is false, without giving any details of what they claim to be
>wrong with it,
I have now typed in myself the "proof" which John sez no one has proffered
in defense of Bob C's counterexample (Bob never saying it best or any of that
nonsense).... read this and the other threads john... the data clearly shows
that Jute's assertions are incorrect....
>and then state that it is the responsibility of the one
>originally making the statement to prove it true,
yep.... this makes sense the one making the claims has the responsiblity to
demonstrate the claims....
>even in the face ofempty claims that it is false.
again... you must have missed my typing in all those numbers and distortion
data
about four or five times that I have done it so far... but no more...
>André has made a statement that Bob disagrees with, I think it rests on
>Bob's shoulders to prove his claim that André's statement is false,
It was andre who made the original claims about only high impedance and high
current operating points could low distortion... Bob C offered a counterexample
and the numbers to support Bob C's example have been provided several times
already....
>rather
>than being André's responsibility to defend his statement against all
claims that is false, no matter how ill founded they may be.
See my response above... this is like a broken record....
> André's
>obligation to defend his statement only starts when Bob presents a
>reasonable argument that it is false.
See my response above.... the record is beginning to melt from being
spun around so much....
Acrosound
steam a mile high;
up over the ridge and down the other side.... you need to add more to the
battle cry....
>You have this backwards, this is one of the techniques that the guy's >from
>the JoeNet use constantly against non believers here on rec.audio.tubes.
good move.... "non-believers" and making it like a "us versus them" and then
claiming stake to ownership of the group.... that's not half bad...least till
it is pointed out...
Talk about those 'demons' , those "joes", and if there dare be a woman
amongst them a "joette"... how they invade the body in the middle of the
night...
and by day.. they are YUPPIES... yuppies is generally a good one to get people
going.. gets my buddy in NYC really pee-ode.....
the "REAL WORLD" perjorative is getting a bit shopworn.... though I liked the
cheerleading as in "Real world amps are PP".... kinda funny.... any amp that
makes good music is real world, heh?
the "gang of thugs".... haven't seen you use it for a few days.. though I think
you bud has been making frequent good use of the term.....
ohhhh.... how I miss the old days... when a certain feller used to
conjure up imagery by use of terms like "magnate", "world domineering", and
that old financial jibe... "greed".....
just my observations,
Mike
Acrosound
>So Bubba reads off the WE sheet and expects tubes which are (a) a >carbon
>copy of (b) a reverse engineered patent evasion job to work the same
>way.
Hi andre.... could you share with us unwashed masses the date of Western
Electric's
original patent on the 300B, the duration of the patent, and any extensions
that may
have been granted?
I am fascinated with what legal liabilities ("reverse engineered patent
evasion") the
tube makers in China staved off in the early nineties when they started
production of this
tube type. And if they had the STC blueprints as you state elsewhere in this
thread
why would they have needed to skirt any "patent rights" of WE?
I trust you will be able to elucidate and expand on your statement's above and
I
am privileged to have a person with your credentials in patents address this
issue.
For those not aware, and I quote directly from your website Andre, the
following:
"He holds patents in automobile suspensions, internal combustion
and pipe-laying equipment. "
Thanking you in advance,
Mike LaFevre
Bob C
John Byrns wrote in message ...
>
>
>Excellent post, you really nailed it with this one, only a couple of
>places with one wheel off.
>
>André's original post deleted to save bandwidth.
>
Mr Byrns is cheerleading for the phony Mr. Jute. What is very interesting
is that nether Mr. Byrns or Mr. Jute will answer any real questions. Very
simple questions have been asked over and over again, but no answers... Why
is this, Mr. Byrns, Mr. Jute. They attempt to cloak their lies in phony
technical discussions, but never answer any "REAL WORLD" questions. They can
go on forever with the phony arguments, because they have unlimited
resources. These resources are called LIES. If you lie, you can say anything
you want and twist what others say without a problem. If you have no regard
for TRUTH, HONESTY, and INTEGRITY, all bets are off, you will do or say
anything Mr. Jute-Byrns...
I will make this very simple so you cannot miss it, so this time when you do
not answer some very simple questions there is no possibility that these
questions were lost in the massive verbiage generated by such resourceful
phonies as the Jute-Byrns team.
Prove all the phony claims:
Designed the Chrysler Hemi Head.
Mac #3 Signed by Steve.
Show us the Real McCoy amps.
Show any amps, or anything built by Mr. Jute.
Show us The $200K Lowther horn speakers, or any speakers built by Mr. Jute.
Prove the outrageous claims made by Mr. Jute. I will not list them all at
this time, but if you need help please ask and a full list will be provided.
Give us Bill May. He writes such wonderful technical articles why is he not
allowed to contribute further to this group. As "WE" all know Bill May is a
figment of Mr. Jute's imagination... PROVE HE IS REAL... PROVE HIS PHONY
TEST IS REAL...
There are many more things, but let's see what happens with these. Mr. Jute
has ZERO credibility in the group, and in this industry. He is a Conman,
phony and a liar. If you do not answer the simple question listed above, it
will be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that JUTE is a CONMAN, PHONY AND A
LIAR.
If you ignore this Mr. Jute-Byrns as you have done many times already, we
will clearly see your "honesty" at work...
The World awaits your answers.
BC
>Regards,
>
>John Byrns
Ron Bales
>
>
> Show any amps, or anything built by Mr. Jute.
We've seen Mr Jute's craftsmanship - look at his kit assemblies in Glass
audio. The SEX with the lopsided knotted pine box of weird proportions and
the mangled tranny - of course he only built one. Shame the present owner
completely rebuilt it. Might also take a look at the Miyabe and its novel
wire dress.
ROn
Acrosound
>The reason it is holy is that
>LaFevre wound trannies to suit those operating points. If you are
>bolshie enough to choose your own operating points, his trannies will
>not be suitable. You will shop elsewhere. He will lose money. Tsch!
>Tsch!
Actually, my recommendation to consumers would be pick your iron first
and then choose an "operating point" (however derived) that works well
within the range of optimality for the iron that your using. It has already
been demonstrated that there is more than one operating point that looks
good on paper from a distortion point of view... so choosing the tranney
first enables one to then optimize the tube parameters (and\or other
circuit considerations) in conjunction with the transformer of their choice.
The manufacturer of your chosen transformer will probably have available
a range of resources (suggested operating points, complete circuit schematics,
or possibly even complete kits with their ironware) to help you get the best
performance out of the amp as a "whole".
For the record, and to respond to the ludicrous charges levied above, I would
like to note that we build a range of outputs called the RS
series. Our RS 500 has a 5K primary impedance and can accomadate
80 mils of plate current.... and deliver a minimum of 40 watts of power
at 30 hertz.
defeats the cynical thesis proffered by the gentleman from Cork, heh?
Mike LaFevre
André Jute
Philadelphia) wrote:
> Actually, my recommendation to consumers would be pick your iron first
> and then choose an "operating point" (however derived) that works well
> within the range of optimality for the iron that your using.
Huh?
Sounds like Oprah. Choose your fashion first, then reshape your body to
fit inside it.
About what we would expect from the cigar-poppin' hypester sitting at
the most notorious kitchen table in Philly*. With more blatant
advertising:
>Our RS 500 has a 5K primary impedance and can accomadate
>80 mils of plate current.... and deliver a minimum of 40 watts of power
>at 30 hertz.
Now there you go, Bubba. If despite all the evidence you still insist on
buying a Magnequest transformer without listening to any others, you can
throw out your twee Magnequest DS-050 (40mA plate current!)--
No income tax, no VAT,
no money back, no guarantee
-- and move up to Mikey's RS 500 with 80mA of current. Wonder how much
it costs... And what you can get in Tangos for so much money...
That, of course, is if it exists at all. Mikey is such a fine agreeable
hypester, any time someone even hints it would fashionable, he'll invent
a whole new Magnequest VaporTranny <TM>. Wouldn't be surprised to
discover the RS stands for "Racing Stripes", hypester-speak for
"superfluous decoration". Did anyone actually see this so-called
Magnequest RS 500 catalogued or preferably in the iron before I
mentioned the desirability of high impedance/high current operating
points?
Assuming it exists, the RS 500 still would just barely let you try my
80mA -80V grid operating point that costs only 1.85% distortion at
clipping ( http://indigo.ie/~andre/Humor.html ). You see, Bubba,
conservative designers like to leave themselves a little breathing
space. A gennie 90mA transformer would really be better. Never mind, by
next week the ultra-flexible Michael LaFevre will no doubt discover that
his RS 500 is "so conservatively specified that it is really capable of
90mA". Mikey Says, "No engineering anywhere folks....zip."
No spec to max, no flexibility,
no income tax, no VAT,
no money back, no guarantee
Take, it away, Mikey, it's showtime!
Andre
*Step up folk, pay your dollar. See the bloodstained kitchen table! Here
the LaFevre Gang of Thugs perform their character assassinations! See
that large red stain? That's some European critic they sacrificed to pay
for another race car for Mikey.
Kamaruddin
Peter wrote:
> Thanks, I'm excited about this project - my first SET.
> Now for some specific questions, hope someone can help.
> I've seen circuits of SE 845's with different drivers : 300B, 2A3.
> I think the Unison Research even uses a 12AX7 driver, although I
> wonder how its done. I was thinking of using the EL84/6BQ5. What do
> you think, considering that the 845's will be running at 900V (Ok, I'm
> convinced that they should not be run at too low a B+, having checked
> out the graphs/charts as someone suggested :-)
> I am even thinking of using input transformers, if need be.
>
> Peter
I saw a homebrewed 845 amp, using 6SN7, and 6AS7 as driver tube. Sound's
horrible.
Oh, and it's a PP amp using a pair of 845/channel !! What a waste of good tube.
One Eye jack
Acrosound
>Actually, my recommendation to consumers would be pick your iron first
>and then choose an "operating point" (however derived) that works well
>within the range of optimality for the iron that your using. It has already
>been demonstrated that there is more than one operating point that looks
>good on paper from a distortion point of view... so choosing the tranney
>first enables one to then optimize the tube parameters (and\or other
>circuit considerations) in conjunction with the transformer of their choice.
>The manufacturer of your chosen transformer will probably have available
>a range of resources (suggested operating points, complete circuit schematics,
>or possibly even complete kits with their ironware) to help you get the best
>performance out of the amp as a "whole".
to which Andre Jute responded:
>>Huh?
>>Sounds like Oprah. Choose your fashion first, then reshape your body to
>>fit inside it.
The advice offered was practical since it would put the customer in touch
with the manufacturer (or his representative) who knowing the transformer
initimately and in working with the design community (amplifier builders) would
have the advantages of real world practical experience to share with the
consumer.
Every manufacturer I know of has recommended applications for their products
and this could be a valuable resource for the buyer. Some offer kits with
their
transformers. Others may have complete circuit diagrams that have been
optimized
for use with their particular transformers.
And generally the manufacturer or his rep will try to help ya get the "best
fit".
Mike LaFevre
Ron Bales
>
>
> >Our RS 500 has a 5K primary impedance and can accomadate
> >80 mils of plate current.... and deliver a minimum of 40 watts of power
> >at 30 hertz.
> hypester, any time someone even hints it would fashionable, he'll invent
> a whole new Magnequest VaporTranny <TM>.
Andre, no! You are not accusing somebody of producing vaporware?!?!
HeehaahahahhBWaaahhahahaahaahahahhaha
> Assuming it exists, the RS 500 still would just barely let you try my
> 80mA -80V grid operating point that costs only 1.85% distortion at
> clipping ( http://indigo.ie/~andre/Humor.html ). You see, Bubba,
> conservative designers like to leave themselves a little breathing
> space. A gennie 90mA transformer would really be better.
Will ANYONE defend Jute's profoundly dim failure to understand what current
ratings in an SE tranny mean. Thought not.
The man is either a total moron or he is so intent on attacking Mike that
he willingly lies about engineering principles. Excuse me, it is also
possible that both are true. Is there any doubt? John? Russ? Anybody?
Has Jute left ANY reasonable doubt about his malice?
> Andre
> *Step up folk, pay your dollar. See the bloodstained kitchen table! Here
> the LaFevre Gang of Thugs perform their character assassinations! See
> that large red stain? That's some European critic they sacrificed to pay
> for another race car for Mikey.
Looks more like some wannabe Euro-critic became so desperate to harm Mikey
that he was reduced to commiting bloody suicide in an attempt to upset
Mike's dinner.
Ya know what really stinks - Mikey has REAL race cars and you play
make-believe.
ROn
> Andre Jute an...@indigo.ie COMMUNICATION JUTE
> --see our pages for music lovers, writers and audiophiles at