Using thyratrons for an amplifier

[gjsmo]

First, let me say that I know almost nothing about amplifier design,
and tubes in general. However, I'm interested, and ready to learn.

I have recently gotten two 760/6858 mercury thyratrons from a local
electronics shop which is going out of business. There's a data sheet
here -> http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/tubedata/760_6858.pdf

Would it be possible to make these into a push-pull guitar amp of some
sort? They're quite big, and I imagine I might be able to get a few
hundred watts out of it. A bass amp might also be interesting. I
realize that they are thyratrons, not meant for audio use, but can it
be done? And if so, how well would it work?

[flipper]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:51:11 -0800 (PST), gjsmo <gabj...@gmail.com>
wrote:

A thyratron is an electronic 'switch', not an amplifier, which means
you can't make an amplifier with them because they aren't.

[rrus...@hotmail.com]

On Jan 25, 6:37 pm, flipper <flip...@fish.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:51:11 -0800 (PST), gjsmo <gabjs...@gmail.com>

A thyratron is a gas filled triode or tetrode tube that is on or off,
not linear. They can not be used as linear amplifiers but
theoretically could be used as a switchmode amplifier element: the
results would not be very good, I don't think. Some might be used as
rectifiers, but even there that isn't their first best purpose. There
were thyratron switched DC power supplies in the manner of ones using
SCRs or triacs today shown as DIY projects which might be interesting
to look at. Most thyratrons are either small signal devices used in
oscilloscopes and certain waveform generators or huge big bottles for
circuits with several kilovolts.

[John L Stewart]

rrus...@hotmail.com;951090 Wrote:
> On Jan 25, 6:37*pm, flipper <flip...@fish.net> wrote:-

> > On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:51:11 -0800 (PST), gjsmo <gabjs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:

> >-

> > >First, let me say that I know almost nothing about amplifier design,

> > >and tubes in general. However, I'm interested, and ready to learn.-
> >-

> > >I have recently gotten two 760/6858 mercury thyratrons from a local
> > >electronics shop which is going out of business. There's a data
> sheet

> > >here ->http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/tubedata/760_6858.pdf-
> >-

> > >Would it be possible to make these into a push-pull guitar amp of
> some
> > >sort? They're quite big, and I imagine I might be able to get a few
> > >hundred watts out of it. A bass amp might also be interesting. I
> > >realize that they are thyratrons, not meant for audio use, but can
> it

> > >be done? And if so, how well would it work?-

> >
> > A thyratron is an electronic 'switch', not an amplifier, which means

> > you can't make an amplifier with them because they aren't.-

>
> A thyratron is a gas filled triode or tetrode tube that is on or off,
> not linear. They can not be used as linear amplifiers but
> theoretically could be used as a switchmode amplifier element: the
> results would not be very good, I don't think. Some might be used as
> rectifiers, but even there that isn't their first best purpose. There
> were thyratron switched DC power supplies in the manner of ones using
> SCRs or triacs today shown as DIY projects which might be interesting
> to look at. Most thyratrons are either small signal devices used in
> oscilloscopes and certain waveform generators or huge big bottles for
> circuits with several kilovolts.

The 884/885 Thyratron was commonly used in the time base circuit of
scopes in the 30s & 40s. I can think of Dumont off the top. I think some
early Heathkits as well. The circuit was more or less free running but
could be synchronized by an external signal. Sweep speed was controlled
by the ramp produced by an RC circuit & then the C discharged by the
thyratron.

Finally Tektronix showed how a time base showed be built.

I vaguely recall seeing a HV (750 volts) TDR used for shooting open
telegraph/telephone lines to locate faults. Seems to me it used a
Hydrogen Thyratron. All around 1960. Guys in the lab joked about a Crow
straddling the pair in test, leaping off as the pulse went by!

I used an 0A4G cold cathode triode (thyratron) in a remotely controlled
switch around 1960. Its the same one as shown in the RC14 RCA Handbook.
See it at this link- http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/137/0/0A4G.pdf

See the 760/6858 at this link-

http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/7/760.pdf

The 2D21 is a common miniature thyratron used for control. See it here-

http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/137/2/2D21.pdf

Cheers, John




--
John L Stewart

[Patrick Turner]

Pulse width modulation with tubes maybe?

Don't ask me, I've never met Thyra Tron, she sounds like a real peice
of work, dangerous in any dark alley.

Patrick Turner

[rrus...@hotmail.com]

On Jan 26, 6:22 am, John L Stewart <John.L.Stewart.
966f...@audiobanter.com> wrote:

So often gas bags like Don Lancaster howl that Tektronix is the ONLY
scope. Hmmmm.

[gjsmo]

Ok. It would've looked pretty badass, with a pair of gigantic tubes in
a guitar amp, but oh well. Any ideas for some big tubes that can be
gotten cheaply, and would work in a guitar amp?

[cjt]

On 01/27/2012 08:08 PM, gjsmo wrote:
<snip>

> Ok. It would've looked pretty badass, with a pair of gigantic tubes in
> a guitar amp, but oh well. Any ideas for some big tubes that can be
> gotten cheaply, and would work in a guitar amp?

You could still put them in and light them up if looks are the issue.
Nobody said they have to be functional.

[Lord Valve]

I wanna see where he's gonna get the 42 AMPS of filament juice from...


LV

[Yellow Pinky]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:56:32 -0700, Lord Valve
<detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>I wanna see where he's gonna get the 42 AMPS of filament juice from...

>LV

BATTERIES ! Them there silver disc watch thing-ies..

..maybe a few of them...

When Crate did the 1st batch of Blue 'Voo-Doo' amps, they
had pilot bulbs against a silver background to make it look
like those 6L6 turds might JUST MIGHT sound good. They
failed, I made good $$ putting on/off switches in them so
the p/lites could stay on, look 'kool', yet save tube life.

AT PV, we called them Blue DO-DO..when we wern't laughing..


JJTj



Now we can talk in confidence
Did you guess that we've been done wrong?
Lies jump in queue to be first in line
Such a shameless design

Ah, thinks he's well screened from the man at the top
It's a shame that his children disagree
They coolly decide to sell him down the line
Daddy's brainwashing time

He's a dodo, no no, didn't hear it from me
He's a dodo, no no, didn't hear it from me

She's quite enthralled with her childhood of yore
When a unit was a figure, not a she
When lovers chose each other, now the perks are due
Another memo to screw

She's a dodo, no no, didn't hear it from me
She's a dodo, no no, didn't hear it from me

Can you wipe your nose my child
Without them slotting in your file a photograph?
Can you sleep alone at night?
Wake to find the scorching light of neighbour Jim
He's come to turn you in

Another dodo, no no, didn't hear it from me
Another dodo, no no, didn't hear it from me

Ah, another do do, no, didn't hear it...






*> SENT FROM CELL PHONE DECK# 864378HS <*
*> NO REPLY MODE GIGANEWS T4DSQ-OfK9 <*

[gjsmo]

Actually, I want them to be functional. And if they could glow blue,
that'd be awesome.
I just think it would be cool to have a power amp which instead of a
quad of 6L6s, EL34s, or KT88 (my favorite), it'd be cool to have a
pair of big transmitting tubes, with the tubes on display behind a
piece of glass. And a sign that says "Danger: High Voltage". Yeah.
So if you've got a tube that'll glow blue and is big and will work
with audio - that'd be nice.

[rrus...@hotmail.com]

They will light up with filament voltage but to glow they need plate
voltage. A LOT of plate voltage.

Put them on eBay, sell them to someone who really needs them and buy
something useful.

[flipper]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:51:43 -0800 (PST), gjsmo <gabj...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Well, get yourself a pair of these then,
http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/049/9/9C21.pdf

Would take 16 KW just to power the heaters and a half track to carry
the OPT but a PP pair would make for a rather impressive 50 KW guitar
amp.

[flipper]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:51:43 -0800 (PST), gjsmo <gabj...@gmail.com>
wrote:

If you just want "looks cool" then get a gaggle of ST octal glow
tubes, which could be powered without needing a personal nuclear
reactor.

[cjt]

I like that 20 gallons per minute of cooling water -- you could do some
special effects with that for sure.

[flipper]

The good news is you might be able to save a power transformer by just
sticking a diode off the primary 13KV feed. Good place to put that
"Danger, High Voltage" sign.

[Lord Valve]

Back in the day...

The cooling system for the finals at WTOP (50 KW
AM station just outside Washington, DC) used the
fountain in front of the building to dump heat to the
atmosphere. It'd steam like crazy in the winter...

Lord Valve

[rrus...@hotmail.com]

On Jan 29, 9:06 am, Lord Valve <detri...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> cjt wrote:
> > On 01/28/2012 09:48 PM, flipper wrote:

> > > On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:51:43 -0800 (PST), gjsmo<gabjs...@gmail.com>

DC gets cold enough that if they had had an outage for more than a few
hours they would have had to dump all the water or have a freeze.
Startup would have had to wait for an above freezing day.

[gjsmo]

Believe it or not, I'm serious...

Maybe I should specify more. What could I use to have, say, 100-200W
from a push-pull pair of tubes? I genuinely want them to be
functional, but at the same time look cool (I know, typical noobish
thinking...) - glowing blue and such.

If I could power a pair of those tubes, and obtain them, I suppose it
might be an interesting experiment. I don't image anyone wants to part
with a pair of them for a price I can afford though, so that's
probably out of the question.

[rrus...@hotmail.com]

On Jan 31, 8:01 pm, gjsmo <gabjs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Believe it or not, I'm serious...
>
> Maybe I should specify more. What could I use to have, say, 100-200W
> from a push-pull pair of tubes? I genuinely want them to be
> functional, but at the same time look cool (I know, typical noobish
> thinking...) - glowing blue and such.

211, 811, 572B for triodes, several tetrodes or pentodes like 4-65A,
4E27, 813, et al.

The 811 is cheap but it is intended as a zero bias RF tube with a mu
(amplification factor) of 160. The Altec 1570B ran a pair for 150 or
so watts. Several other PA amps too. Horrid sound.

211, 845 are highish dollar. WE 212, an elephant penis of a tube,
here:
http://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/2010/08/western-electric-212e-vacuum-tube/

You need to learn electronics first.....no offense....

http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/sub/radio.html
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks3/exp1/index.html

Start with this kind of stuff: and make passing the ham radio or ISCET
exam a goal:

http://www.iscet.org/certification/associate.html

You have to pay our dues to play the blues.

Patrick will try to push the Radiotron on you....it's a good book but
it isn't the Gospel....and even if it were it's not for newbies.

[gjsmo]

On Feb 1, 10:16 pm, rruss...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 31, 8:01 pm, gjsmo <gabjs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Believe it or not, I'm serious...
>
> > Maybe I should specify more. What could I use to have, say, 100-200W
> > from a push-pull pair of tubes? I genuinely want them to be
> > functional, but at the same time look cool (I know, typical noobish
> > thinking...) - glowing blue and such.
>
> 211, 811, 572B for triodes, several tetrodes or pentodes like 4-65A,
> 4E27, 813, et al.
>
>  The 811 is cheap but it is intended as a zero bias RF tube with a mu
> (amplification factor) of 160. The Altec 1570B ran a pair for 150 or
> so watts. Several other PA amps too. Horrid sound.
>
>  211, 845 are highish dollar. WE 212, an elephant penis of a tube,

> here:http://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/2010/08/western-electric-212e-vac...

The 813 looks interesting. I wonder where I can get a pair.
There's an amp that uses them here: http://www.chambonino.com/construct/const9.html

> You need to learn electronics first.....no offense....

I do know some electronics, but it's all solid-state and digital. So,
I could build a calculator from TTL logic with a decimal keypad and
readout, but not an amp. I tend to try big projects first... so
this'll be my style.

> http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/sub/radio.htmlhttp://www.lindsaybks.com/bks3/exp1/index.html

>
> Start with this kind of stuff: and make passing the ham radio or ISCET
> exam a goal:
>
> http://www.iscet.org/certification/associate.html

I took a course in ham radio a while ago, but I never took the test.
Oops.

> You have to pay our dues to play the blues.
>
>  Patrick will try to push the Radiotron on you....it's a good book but
> it isn't the Gospel....and even if it were it's not for newbies.

I've got a copy of revision 3, and a PDF of revision 4. I can
understand some of it, but I'm missing a few key bits of knowledge
which would probably help.

[rrus...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 2, 10:20 pm, gjsmo <gabjs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 10:16 pm, rruss...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 31, 8:01 pm, gjsmo <gabjs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Believe it or not, I'm serious...
>
> > > Maybe I should specify more. What could I use to have, say, 100-200W
> > > from a push-pull pair of tubes? I genuinely want them to be
> > > functional, but at the same time look cool (I know, typical noobish
> > > thinking...) - glowing blue and such.
>
> > 211, 811, 572B for triodes, several tetrodes or pentodes like 4-65A,
> > 4E27, 813, et al.
>
> >  The 811 is cheap but it is intended as a zero bias RF tube with a mu
> > (amplification factor) of 160. The Altec 1570B ran a pair for 150 or
> > so watts. Several other PA amps too. Horrid sound.
>
> >  211, 845 are highish dollar. WE 212, an elephant penis of a tube,
> > here:http://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/2010/08/western-electric-212e-vac...
>
> The 813 looks interesting. I wonder where I can get a pair.
> There's an amp that uses them here:http://www.chambonino.com/construct/const9.html
>
> > You need to learn electronics first.....no offense....
>
> I do know some electronics, but it's all solid-state and digital. So,
> I could build a calculator from TTL logic with a decimal keypad and
> readout, but not an amp. I tend to try big projects first... so
> this'll be my style.

If you understand DC and AC electrical theory and solid state analog
concepts tubes are easy to learn. Any good tube manual or ARRL
Handbook 1950-1976 or so will get you going.