Gripes about the article "Life and Times of the EL34" published in VTV issue #16
Dieter Wolbart
VTV issue #16, I am dismayed by the amount of erroneous information
presented by the publishers. Though a lot of the information is correct,
there is just too much of incorrect information to consider this article
really beneficial to anyone.
In fact, the incorrect parts of the article effectively qualify it to
being a "class-A male bovine excrement".
I'd just like to direct the attention to some of the paragraphs in
question.
Sorry, but it's gonna be long for the sake of exactness...
Page 16:
"manufacture of aligned-grid beam tubes (such as the EL37), the..."
This is utter non-sense. The EL37 is, was, and always has been a true
pentode, sporting the wide-spaced suppressor grid (G3) as found with all
true power pentodes, not aligned beam forming plates as inherent only
with beam power tetrodes such as 6L6/KT66, 6550/KT88, 7591 etc.
(Take the URL at the end of this post to roam around the pic gallery
I've set up for further information.)
Page 17:
"aggressive marketing, so this 800v rating appears..."
Not only Philips but both, Telefunken and RFT published the same 800v
rating for PP mode in class B operation, thus effectively squeezing 100w
at 5%THD out of two tubes! There were plenty of commercial PA amps
around, using this configuration. Arcing between pins 2&3 occurred
occasionally - particularly in humid environments - however not between
pins 4&5 as being suggested. It seems that the 800v rating was less an
issue in practice, as otherwise the other two manufacturers would not
have supported it. BTW: Today's Svetlana still carries that rating...
Page 19:
"date code for an Eindhoven Xf2 is: Xf2 X7H."
This is wrong. The factory code "X" indicates Philips' Sittard plant,
right in the heart of Limburg county - yes, this is where the famous
stinky "Limburger" cheeses are from ;-)
Sittard is actually very close to Philips' other Dutch plant in Heerlen,
located right across the border with Germany. Eindhoven is actually
farther Northwest of this location. It's like saying RCA tubes were made
in Newark - oops, sorry TungSol - instead of Harrison because it's
location is also in NJ!
BTW: Eindhoven receiving valve codes are:T, 1, 2, 3. (also 6, 7, 8 and :
for special applications)
Page 19 cont'd:
"probably made by Tungsram."
Rubbish. Tungsram never made any EL34. Tungsram was just another of the
many pre-WWII brands acquired by Philips - as with Mullard, Pope, Valvo
etc., etc. - with some of the former factories located in Austria, UK,
France and Hungary. After WWII Tungsram remained in the West as a
distribution name for a while, whereas the factory in Hungary became
state owned as soon as the iron curtain fell. Tungsram Hungary remained
a major East block tube manufacturer in all those years, producing some
very fine tubes indeed - the marvelous E80CC or EL84 come to mind.
However, no EL34 were produced. That, funnily enough, was Tesla's and
RFT's territory; more on that later...
Page 19 cont'd:
"Telefunken-marked EL34s were actually made in Eindhoven..."
Where on earth did they get that information from, tsss, tsss... TFK
started soon after Philips to manufacture EL34 with metal collar. The
first version sported slanted double getters, not unlike those commonly
seen with GE or Sylvania, albeit in a much slimmer bottle. All later
getter versions were aligned horizontally. EL34s made by TFK are
distinctively different from Philips' versions and can simply not be
mistaken. Incidentally, it seems that Philips and TFK were the only West
European manufacturers of the EL34. So, any West European EL34, whether
being branded as Siemens, (SEL/ITT) Lorenz, or whatever else, originated
from either one of the two manufacturers. TFK of course, as was common
practice, would sell Philips (later RFT) made tubes under their own logo
whenever necessary to meet demand. After all, they produced far lower
numbers than Philips as they only had two factories, located in West
Berlin and Ulm.
(The pic gallery has plenty of samples, including a copy of the original
construction drawing of the control grid.)
Page 20 - repeated in various paragraphs:
"a division of ITT in East Germany.", "sold the ITT East German "slim"
EL34...", then further mentioned: "According to Kevin Deal of Upscale
Audio, neither Lorenz nor RFT ever made an EL34..."
Wow, this is a good one!!! I'm simply floored about so much
misinformation...
Before going into more details about RFT, I somehow find it difficult to
believe that Kevin should have made such a statement. He is in the
business for such a long time that he certainly must have come across
hundreds of RFTs...
Here are some facts about RFT, the former and now defunct East German,
state owned conglomerate of at least a half dozen manufacturing sites,
having produced everything from tubes to C-MOS components.
We first have to step back to 1945 and the end of WWII, in order to
understand their tube business. The manufacturing plants of
AEG/Telefunken were located in the cities of Berlin, Erfurt and Neuhaus.
Loewe Radio also had its site in Berlin, Lorenz AG's was located in
Mühlhausen and one of the Siemens tube plants was in Rudolstadt, also in
the eastern part of Germany. After WWII they all shared the same
fate..., expropriation by the Russians. Some of the plants were stripped
clean of all equipment, others survived, albeit in tatters.
East Germany (officially called the GDR) started the manufacturing of
tubes again in the late '40s with the help of some former plant
employees. Some of them would actually stay on, others fled to the West
later. The former AEG/TFK plant, now located in East Berlin and called
"VEB Werk für Fernsehelektronik", manufactured the very first EL34 in
the early 1960s (VEB = Volkseigener Betrieb = state owned
business/company). Those were branded as "WF" and actually were of
incredible quality, simply the best ones ever made in the GDR. It is
interestingly to note that RFT published the tube data in the section of
special purpose tubes (yellow series).
Because of the plant's restricted space and some politics, production
was moved to "VEB Röhrenwerk Mühlhausen", the former tube plant of
Lorenz AG, later in the '60s. However, this plant had nothing in common
anymore with the (ITT) Lorenz group in Esslingen/West Germany. As
mentioned earlier, Lorenz didn't even make any EL34, they would be
sourced from either Philips or RFT!
The typical "slim bottle" RFT "dimple top" seen worldwide today,
whatever their branding, came exclusively from this plant.
(The pic gallery illustrates plenty of additional information.)
So, why should one be upset about this article... Very simple, a
magazine such a VTV, enjoying a large following, has the responsibility
to furnish only well researched facts, not speculations, as many tube
heads will often blindly believe anything - they don't know better, how
could they - that's being published; as such following recommendations
w/o too much reservations... Just take a look what happened with the '42
metal based Sylvania 6SN7W after it appeared favorably in their
shoot-out!
I've noticed the first fallout from this article already as some
"self-nominated experts" already started flapping their gums. We are
sure to see more of the rubbish in the future...
Well, you might ask what makes me such an expert to criticize VTV-
though I don't claim to be one, as there are probably a fair number of
people that know even more about tubes than I do. That is indeed a valid
question ...
I happened to be born, raised and educated in the beautiful city of
Hamburg, right in the North of Germany. Being an electronics engineer, I
spent some years of my professional career with Philips. Valvo, being
Philips of course, is not just all about tubes but all sorts of other
active and passive components as well. The Valvo plant was incredible in
their variety of manufacturing, with the tube manufacturing facility
being one of the most impressive. I had one of my most interesting years
and insights then; I wouldn't want to have missed it for the world ;-)
Oh yeah, one more thing before I close out... The code list for Philips
and its affiliated partners on page 15 is grossly incomplete. Some major
manufacturers such as Philips Heerlen (manufacturing plant of the famous
E80CC and other goodies!), several of the Mullard plants in the UK, La
Radiotechnique in France, Siemens/Munich, Ei/Nis etc., etc. are all
absent!
I took liberty to post the complete code list as well. It can
alternatively be found on Ned's website as well -
http://store.yahoo.com/triodeel/index.html -, together with a handy
Excel spreadsheet I had prepared quite some time ago. It will allow you
to search for any tube by type or its code.
Please visit my pic gallery at the following URL for more specific
details:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hktubeaudio/files/European%20EL34/
Hope this post is of interest to all that are interested in the European
history of valve making.
Chiao Dieter
P.S. I do encourage anyone with corrections or additional, factual
information to speak up. After all, that's what it's all about... ;-)
CHOKY
--
message sent by Choky,
Prodanovic Aleksandar
ch...@EUnet.yu
Yugoslavia
Dieter Wolbart <dwol...@hkstar.com> wrote in message
news:3B4EFB95...@hkstar.com...
> After reading through the article named "Life and Times of the EL34" in
> VTV issue #16, I am dismayed by the amount of erroneous information
> presented by the publishers. ......................(CUT)
BKeigans
try it.
" ...@z.org
through mis-information and de-bunking half truths is a tiresome (and time
consuming) task; thanks for the efforts you have put forth. If more people
in the audio business had your combination of integrity and knowledge we
would be a lot farther along than we are now. Vielen Dank, Eric
Warren Lane
......LOTS of GOOD STUFF!!
> I took liberty to post the complete code list as well. It can
> alternatively be found on Ned's website as well -
> http://store.yahoo.com/triodeel/index.html -, together with a handy
> Excel spreadsheet I had prepared quite some time ago. It will allow you
> to search for any tube by type or its code.
>
Thank you Dieter for an enthralling read... It is people such as your self
who REALLY should put pen to paper and print the real story. I worked for
Philips here in Australia at thei Hendon Plant for ten years; nothing
compared to your experience, of course, but was definitely the best part of
my working experience. As an aside, I rarely take much (if any) notice of
"historical fact" or anything else for that matter, in the "glossies".
Please stay involved and best wishes from Australia.
Cheers,
Warren.
TubeGarden
Yup. Good stuff!
I have lots of old EL34s, and some new ones. I enjoy swapping and listening.
Many are very good. None are perfect :)
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
PS Only 6Y6 are perfect ;)
Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ
PWC/mystic/Earhead
Russ Sadd
I'd just like to add that although I haven't read the VTV EL34 article
myself, I've been told that it also avoids one rather important
characteristic of EL34s: they make damn good triodes when strapped as such.
Some pentodes and beam tetrodes were designed by the original manufacturer
with triode-mode operation in mind, and the EL34 is arguably one of the
best, being both highly-linear and sweet-sounding when strapped as such. The
other famous 'triode' is the KT66, as this had been intended by MOV as a
substitute for the PX25 (which it rather resembles when used as a triode).
Similar
Best regards,
Russ Sadd
New site at http://members.tripod.co.uk/griffonconsulting
J&MB Click
articles in VTV and then flip to the back to see
advertisements for the same article! In issue 16 the ad
lifts a quote from the copy of the very same issue!!! Favor
to the advertiser perhaps...
This is sad, VTV was a good read but seems to be ethically
compromised to the max.
Preamp wrote:
>
> >Has anyone tried to put 800 volts on the plates of a Russian EL-34? I wouldn't
> >try it.
>
> I have repaired an amp that put 700 volts on plates. Chinese EL34's were
> arcing, but cheap Sovtek EL34G's work fine (and are still going strong).
TubeGarden
Someone klicked in:
>And has anyone noticed the relationship between featured
>articles in VTV and then flip to the back to see
>advertisements for the same article! In issue 16 the ad
>lifts a quote from the copy of the very same issue!!! Favor
>to the advertiser perhaps...
>This is sad, VTV was a good read but seems to be ethically
>compromised to the max.
Ethics? You want info on vacuum tubes and circuits with the highest moral
ground in the same package?
What nonsense. This thread started with some interesting facts about German and
European technological history, which was presented by an insider with special
knowledge and improved the database for all of us.
You have dropped the tone to whining about higher moral principles. You running
for office?
Thanks for sharing your marvelous ethical insights, not.
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
J&MB Click
magazine that purports to inform us what is the best in
class would not have a financial interest in the outcome of
that decision. Why do a feature article on interconnects and
then just happen to have an advert in that same issue from
the manufacturer of one of the interconnects prominently
mentioned with copy from the very same issue? But then
again, I live near Washington DC so what do I know about
conflicts of interest? Maybe one day I will not be bothered
by such matters...
Oskari Heinonen
>
> P.S. I do encourage anyone with corrections or additional, factual
> information to speak up. After all, that's what it's all about... ;-)
Thanks for your message, Dieter. Here is something for you. :-)
> Here are some facts about RFT, the former and now defunct East German,
> state owned conglomerate of at least a half dozen manufacturing sites,
> having produced everything from tubes to C-MOS components.
RFT, as a trademark, isn't completely gone: http://www.rft.de/
> The factory code "X" indicates Philips' Sittard plant, right in the
> heart of Limburg county - ... Sittard is actually very close to
> Philips' other Dutch plant in Heerlen, located right across ...
Your code list says "Sittard, UK". You might want to fix this.
Regards, Oskari
P.S. What's the story of "Z" (Philips, Monza?, Monaco?)?
--
Oskari Heinonen * University of Helsinki * Department of Computer Science
Oskari....@cs.Helsinki.FI * http://www.cs.Helsinki.FI/Oskari.Heinonen/
eric barbour
If you are such an expert on European tube manufacture,
WHY DID YOU NOT MAKE YOURSELF AVAILABLE TO US AS SUCH??
The facts in the article are much as I have been able to check with
people I know (many of whom are members of the Tube Collector's
Association).
We still do not have many facts--the EL34 was NOT regarded as an
important
type in terms of sales. This does NOT make my job easier!!!!
One young Philips engineer, who has checked the company engineering
library in Eindhoven for me, said there was almost NO information
about tube manufacturing left. Very little hard documentation is
available ANYWHERE. That is why Alan Blake was such a big help to us.
According to what I have been told, most EL37s (later production) were
beam tetrode
in design. Early ones were pentode (I have one myself). We could not
check this, as EL37s are so scarce and difficult to get now.
And saying the date coding for Philips products is wrong, is not only
an attack on VTV--you are also attacking the TCA. They ran Alan's
code list in their house publication TUBE COLLECTOR.
NO ONE to date has come forward with objections to his list--except you.
Either show us the information, or we will assume this is
a personal attack. You have very little or no credibility
until you PROVE your assertions.
Better yet, stop mealymouthing at us on an internet newsgroup
AND WRITE AN ARTICLE FOR US!!!!!!!!!!
Put your facts where your keyboard is, sir.
Eric Barbour
METASONIX
Oskari Heinonen
>
> If you are such an expert on European tube manufacture,
> WHY DID YOU NOT MAKE YOURSELF AVAILABLE TO US AS SUCH??
No need to shout, Eric.
> And saying the date coding for Philips products is wrong, is not
> only an attack on VTV--you are also attacking the TCA.
Yeah, right.
> They ran Alan's code list in their house publication TUBE COLLECTOR.
But not in RAT...
Peace, Oskari
Alan Douglas
>If you are such an expert on European tube manufacture,
>WHY DID YOU NOT MAKE YOURSELF AVAILABLE TO US AS SUCH??
Dieter has posted excellent material here on RAT for a long time,
but I don't expect he can read minds.
>
>
>Better yet, stop mealymouthing at us on an internet newsgroup
Ah, but VTV does not print letters from its readers, does it? You
make your bed, you sleep in it.
Cheers, Alan (occasional VTV author)
GerryE123
I haven't seen the VTV article YET, but thanks for taking the time to voice
your concerns and providing some examples. I have a specific concern about
"Telefunken" EL34s and I would like to know your opinion.
It is my opinion that all "REAL" Telefunken EL34s should have DUAL getter halo
rings and rectangular holes in those two angled metal pieces that are located
just above the plates (I believe some of the HK people refer to them as
"wings").
One of the reason that I say this is because I have seen these characteristics
in all four of the different versions of Telefunken EL34s that I have owned
(metal base and the three non-metal base versions identified by one rectangular
hole in the plates, two rectangular holes in the plates and two round holes in
the plates with the welded cooling fin).
My concern is that when seeing "Telefunken" EL34s up for auction on eBay, at
best, only about half of them have the physical attributes that I list above.
Here is the perfect example of ones that don't:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1255197537
So, in your opinion, are these real Telefunken EL34s? Buyers sometimes pay
quite a bit for these and I feel that they are being misled. I have also
posted this to RAT and would prefer that you respond there. Thanks.
Gerry
Englerja
>WHY DID YOU NOT MAKE YOURSELF AVAILABLE TO US AS SUCH??
Every time I think about ordering VTV, one of their staff opens their mouth and
provides me with ample reason not to......
Eric: Research your facts and you won't see negative feedback on RAT. Relying
on a single person's memory as your primary source is a sure recipe for
journalistic disaster.
vr,
Jeff
Dieter Wolbart
Actually, I wasn't sure whether I should even reply to Mr. Barbour's post ,
however I think I owe it to the fellow RATs...
eric barbour wrote:
> SIR:
>
> If you are such an expert on European tube manufacture,
> WHY DID YOU NOT MAKE YOURSELF AVAILABLE TO US AS SUCH??
First of all, there is no reason to shout, professionals have better ways of
communication. Secondly, am I a mind reader? Had you announced your intention
of publishing such an article, I might very well have provided you with my
input.
>
>
> The facts in the article are much as I have been able to check with
> people I know (many of whom are members of the Tube Collector's
> Association).
What are you trying to say?
>
> We still do not have many facts--the EL34 was NOT regarded as an
> important
> type in terms of sales. This does NOT make my job easier!!!!
The info I provided is readily available amongst European tube professionals.
Furthermore, being an publisher isn't meant to be an easy job - otherwise
everyone would do it himself and no papers or magazines would be needed. But
that's exactly the challenge, putting together that good and well researched
journalistic piece by utilizing every means and source available...
>
>
> One young Philips engineer, who has checked the company engineering
> library in Eindhoven for me, said there was almost NO information
> about tube manufacturing left. Very little hard documentation is
> available ANYWHERE. That is why Alan Blake was such a big help to us.
I have no reason to doubt their knowledge, but relying just on one or two
individuals is stretching it, particularly covering a complex topic such as
this one.
Incidentally, libraries are not just in Eindhoven. You'd be surprised what's
available in the national archives in other European cities...
>
>
> According to what I have been told, most EL37s (later production)
Now you are backpedaling...
> were
> beam tetrode
> in design. Early ones were pentode (I have one myself). We could not
> check this, as EL37s are so scarce and difficult to get now
Still incorrect info. I have a substantial collection of several hundred
European made vintage tubes. About a dozen are EL37 from very early to late
production; all of them being TRUE pentodes. There is also not a single piece
of Philips evidence to be found that would support your claim of the EL37
being a beam power type ever. It just doesn't make sense either as Philips was
THE European promoter of power pentodes vs. the US' - foremost RCA - tube
industry. Better check your sources...
>
>
> And saying the date coding for Philips products is wrong, is not only
> an attack on VTV--you are also attacking the TCA. They ran Alan's
> code list in their house publication TUBE COLLECTOR.
> NO ONE to date has come forward with objections to his list--except you.
This is one of the factory lists available for many years in Europe. There is
absolutely no secret about it. As said already, Sittard is NOT Eindhoven, as
little as Harrison is NOT Newark; and the list you printed remains still
grossly incomplete...
>
>
> Either show us the information, or we will assume this is
> a personal attack. You have very little or no credibility
> until you PROVE your assertions.
Who is attacking whom? Personal attacks are beneath my dignity, assertions are
not in my vocabulary and I'm certainly not the one who has to prove
anything...
>
>
> Better yet, stop mealymouthing at us on an internet newsgroup
> AND WRITE AN ARTICLE FOR US!!!!!!!!!!
Fat chance...
>
> Put your facts where your keyboard is, sir.
My facts are crystal clear, are VTV's?
Dieter Wolbart
>
>
> Eric Barbour
> METASONIX
>
Dieter Wolbart
these are a prime example of TFK branded RFTs from the mid '80s. If
you visit my pic gallery at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hktubeaudio/files/European%20EL34/
you will see plenty of examples of the various brands, all having sold
the RFTs under their name.
Your observation is correct, all Berlin and Ulm manufactured tubes have
the rectangular cutout in the G1 cooling tabs,
whether being the "plain" or "winged" plates.
So..., don't waste you money on those re-brands but pick up genuine RFTs for a fraction of the price instead.
Chiao,
Dieter
.
Fred Nachbaur
Dieter Wolbart wrote:
>
> [...]
> >
> > Better yet, stop mealymouthing at us on an internet newsgroup
> > AND WRITE AN ARTICLE FOR US!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Fat chance...
That's exactly the reaction I was anticipating. Mr. Barbour, if you're
interested in attracting new contributors, I suggest using tact,
humility and respect instead of shouted demands.
Regards,
Fred N
--
+----------------------------------------------------------+
+ New Music for free download. Get it in hi-fi mp3 at +
+ http://www.ampcast.com/frednachbaur +
+ +
+ my home site: http://www.netidea.com/~fredn +
+----------------------------------------------------------+
GerryE123
writes:
>So..., don't waste you money on those re-brands but pick up genuine RFTs for
>a fraction of the price instead.
> So..., don't waste you money on those re-brands but pick up genuine
> RFTs for a fraction of the price instead.
Hi Dieter:
Thanks for the reply! I know better than to fall for those sucker Tele EL34
auctions, but many buyers do not. That was precisely my point. Fortunately,
the reserve price was not met for the example auction that I mentioned. Still,
the high bid was $255 and if you are lucky, you might be able to find the exact
same tubes for less than $100/quad. I see that the seller has relisted it with
lower opening and "Buy it Now" prices. I like the way he writes "This is the
first time I have had such tubes and will be happy to answer any questions. My
number is...". Red Flag? Is this a "Tell" (if you have seen the movie "House
of Games", you will know what this is)?
Gerry