Big boys with toys.... client to discuss (long-ish)
David Morgan (MAMS)
I need to have a serious discussion with a client..., maybe.
I think I have pretty well surrendered myself to the fact that I am
probably about to lose a client of 10 years to his new home studio,
a Roland JV-2480cd... in a 8x20 rehearsal room with an RA-100,
a spare set of my Tannoy 6.5s and some headphones.
These gentlemen have tasted the D&R & Mistubishi for the past five
years and they have taken a spin or three in the Hidley Sierra room
with TADs and a nice custom MCI . Before that, we knocked around
on a Mackie 8-Buss with a Tascam MSR-24S or DA-88s. We have a
long history together.
These are the same fellows that I have mentioned before (3 years ago)
as having purchased a new PC and the Steinberger & Fries "Mastering
Suite" along with a bunch of plug-ins, just to take 14 months to attempt to
master their last record at home..... only to end up reverting to my DAT
masters and running them one time through a 'loudness tool' to make the
final CD.
So, at first I was sickened because they could have coughed up far less
than they spent on toys, to pay for a real Mastering room and had enough
money left over to press 300 Cds. Plus, the turn around time on that
would have been a matter of weeks, not 14 months. But then, I was
somewhat vendicated when they reverted to my original masters but
were too out of sorts to afford to press any CDs, so they packaged their
own paper label CDRs. Do'h! After giving away 4 and 5-song CD 'test
versions' at their gigs throughout the preceeding year, the market was
already dwindling. Meanwhile.....
They had already begun to record another CD before the first one was
released. (Talkin'bout 7 rolls of 1/2" 467 - 3.5 hours worth of material).
Basically, these are week-end warriors... wise, cautious and otherwise
very responsible, family men. They just happen to all like playing music.
In December, one of them bought Roland JV-2480cd; I *think* because
they are somewhat of a bored, experimental oriented 'jam band' when
it all boils down to it, and they wanted to get better live recordings of
their rehearsals. Their 'real' songs are uniquely complex and... well,
different.
<skippable>
If anyone is interested http://www.johnsonadministration.com/ (IUMA)
The website has dwindled to a few live recordings and some rehearsal
tapes for the most part, but song #1 from album #1 was on the first
record - and song #3 from album #3 was on it as well. The rest has
become their playground for exchanging ideas. Disclaimer: I had
nothing to do with the re-mastering of these songs or the MP3s.
</skippable>
They had always recorded their rehearsals and often got a few magic
moments caught in lo-fi. They have even weaved some of their home
spun rehearsal recordings into the real deal. So as their 'growth' goes,
the purchase of this machine was as inevitable as would eventually
have been a high dollar soundcard / interface and more software to
make for multitracking at home. "Mastering" <cough> wasn't enough.
I probably wouldn't worry if they had a place to put their gear besides
shuttleing it from bedroom to bedroom or rehearsal room, or had *any*
sort of microphone or preamp collection. It wouldn't hurt too bad if at
least _one_ of them had some real recording experience. I just keep
thinking they must want better for this mix.
Partly due to the new toys, the last two records over the past three
years have ground to a snails pace as wives, divorces, children and
life gets more quality time. Me? Well, they paid me to worry about
the integrity of their recordings, at least up until now.
Well... we haven't done a session since they bought, "The Machine".
With maybe only 8 hours and a half-dozen vocal tracks remaining
until it's time to mix... the inevitable e-mail arrived this morning :
"I need to schedule some studio time with you. I want to get a big
enough chunk of time to come make a copy of all the tracks from
"Rocks" onto my VS 2480cd".
If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
had paid your rent several times over 10 years, How would YOU
handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
simonstav
> probably about to lose a client of 10 years to his new home studio,
> a Roland JV-2480cd... in a 8x20 rehearsal room with an RA-100,
> a spare set of my Tannoy 6.5s and some headphones.
Snip
> If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
> had paid your rent several times over 10 years, How would YOU
> handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
I'd be asking for my Tannoy's back. If the want to know why tell them I
offered to buy them off you.
Regards Simon
Unknown
>Well... we haven't done a session since they bought, "The Machine".
>With maybe only 8 hours and a half-dozen vocal tracks remaining
>until it's time to mix... the inevitable e-mail arrived this morning :
>
>
> "I need to schedule some studio time with you. I want to get a big
> enough chunk of time to come make a copy of all the tracks from
> "Rocks" onto my VS 2480cd".
>
>
>If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
>had paid your rent several times over 10 years, How would YOU
>handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
>
>
>David Morgan (MAMS)
>http://www.m-a-m-s.com
>
>
It sounds like you're more disappointed in the loyalty factor than
anything.
I have a few ckients like this who make decisions based on the most
preposterous delusions of their own adequacy. It's tough. I've done
amazing albums for talented people and given them deals (bad idea)
assuming (bad idea) that they'd come back for the next step. The last
time I took someone under my wing and gave them extra time and
production advice and went the extra mile, they started their next CD
in another cheap-ass studio and said that if I wanted to "sign them"
that they'd come and record. Fuck them. What pissed me off the most
was realizing that they learned absolutely nothing from me. I've heard
what they're doing on their own and it's crap. But it's not up to me
to continue mentoring people who just sap my energy.
I think you need to re-evaluate how far the friendship goes. Are you
hanging out with them outside the studio environment? If so take them
out for a drink and talk about what they're doing. I don't mind if
people take their tracks with them if they're doing overdubs, it
usually means more fix time later. They may fuck some stuff up so much
that they need a nurse,
I wouldn't go too far out of my way to woo them with pricing (that
won't work) but you will have an in with your experience. Offer
yourself up as a mix consultant and keep offering to fix things at
your place. Be up front about EVERYTHING you hear that is wrong.
Charge them a lot of money for any further transfer time. Do what you
need to to feel good about yourself, it's a bitch to watch buddies
slip under the waves.
Kurt
John Marsden
Sorry to hear 'bout you losing the client to "the machine". This has also
happened to me over the years as equipment has become cheaper. What I've
found happens in 4 out of 5 cases, is that they will be back. Having gear is
no substitute for knowing what to do with it, or in some cases, in spite of
it. One of my clients (God bless him), opened up his own COMPETING studio.
At first I was miffed, but then he started calling me to help him setup his
studio (whenever a new piece of gear showed up), and started refering lots
of small mastering gigs my way. Another client did three well received
projects with me, and then bought her own rig to track her stuff at home.
The resulting "savings" have allowed her to DOUBLE the mix time (I have the
same software DAW package) that she can afford for me - so I win all
'round - don't have to deal with the tracking, get to do the mixing. Happy,
happy, joy, joy!
Take the long view - although they have "paid the rent" several times, they
obviously aren't in it for the money (hence the day gigs, etc.). It's
probably AMAZING that they've done as much stuff as they've done. Stay
helpful and encouraging, and they'll be calling you to come over and mix
they're stuff. Be happy for them that they are starting the wonderful
adventure of becoming (in Roger Nichol's venacular) "Gear Sluts".
Good luck, and smile through the tears...
--
John Marsden
Little-Big Sound
audio for video, film & digital media; graphics & software solutions
www.lbsound.com
jmar...@lbsound.com
Vladan L.
<ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:
>Got five minutes for a bottom feeder?
>I think I have pretty well surrendered myself to the fact that I am
>probably about to lose a client of 10 years to his new home studio,
>a Roland JV-2480cd... in a 8x20 rehearsal room with an RA-100,
>a spare set of my Tannoy 6.5s and some headphones.
That's about what I had in mind when advising mixer purchase in
another thread. Every punk (and his brother) has the gear now. The
only way to stay in business, for real, is to provide stellar space,
both in sound and comfort. The problem here is: who's gonna pay for
it? Not my usual customers. Those who can, they are already
contracted, or have their own studio. Demo studio is history.
>These gentlemen have tasted the D&R & Mistubishi for the past five
>years and they have taken a spin or three in the Hidley Sierra room
>with TADs and a nice custom MCI.
Problem with these people is, no matter how good you make them sound,
they will be dissatisfied, because they do not sound the way they'd
like to, no matter if that's posible, at all. I keep jumping into
people wanting their nasal voices sound like Elvis, their Ibanezes
like Les Pauls, their pianinos like Steinway grands...., their average
playing skills turn into virtuose,... They are not about soundquality,
but about certain sounds, impossible to provide with gears and skills
they/ we have. Therefore, they'll sacrifise time to play arround and
try to get the "vision", instead coming to you/ me, to make pristine
record of that vision. And yes, the gear is available.
>These are the same fellows....
>... the inevitable e-mail arrived this morning :
>>
> "I need to schedule some studio time with you. I want to get a big
> enough chunk of time to come make a copy of all the tracks from
> "Rocks" onto my VS 2480cd".
>
>If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
>had paid your rent several times over 10 years, How would YOU
>handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
I'd give them what they wanted in this manner:
They'd have to buy their tapes (full cost of new ones + all remaining
debths). Than, I'd charge full hourly rate for transfering THEIR
music, from THEIR tapes, onto THEIR HD. I'd get my speakers back, too.
I've experienced long term customer abbandoning me for the sake of
signing the contract with bigger publisher . That contract included
blackmail clause of re - recording in publisher controlled studio, to
be payed by the band, no matter they've already made an release with
another, smaller, publisher with my recordings and expressed
satisfaction on every ocasion.
Fuck them all.
Vladan
--
Master of Arts from Berlin sceene:
www.kunsttick.com/artists/vuskovic/indexdat.htm
--
Soundtrack stuff, 8 pieces: www.mp3.com/shook
Various, 12 pieces on 1 CD: www.mp3.com/lesly2
Various, 14 pieces, 2 CD's: www.mp3.com/lesly
--
www.geocities.com/vla_dan_l
From the land of the 5 times
basketball world champions
EganMedia
>had paid your rent several times over 10 years, How would YOU
>handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
I'd be happy I got the business from them that I did. I'd wish then well and
give them my card. I'd make sure to let them know that at any point they'd be
welcome back in my studio to work on this or any other project.
If they can make use of The Machine and get results *they're* satisfied with,
they'll be better off. I say spend the effort you might put into convincing
them otherwise into findiing new clients. Refusing to let the jilted lover go
her own way is cute and kitschy in a Meg Ryan movie. It doesn't play so well
in real life.
Plus, they'll be back. Who are you kidding? Just make sure you have a fresh
bottle of turd polish on hand when they show up looking for help mixing.
Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com
Vladan L.
wrote:
>Sorry to hear 'bout you losing the client to "the machine". This has also
>happened to me over the years as equipment has become cheaper. What I've
>found happens in 4 out of 5 cases, is that they will be back.
For sure, that is a probability.
Jny Vee
part in Bonnie Raitt's cut-12-on-LUCK OF THE DRAW (dang where's the
case... "all at once I hear your voice.." that one) plays by...
I don't think Don Was comes as a plug-in, or in a Roland...
In article <YJuka.20658$7w2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, "David Morgan
\(MAMS\)" <ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:
>... I am
> probably about to lose a client of 10 years to his new home studio,
> a Roland JV-2480cd... in a 8x20 rehearsal room with an RA-100,
> a spare set of my Tannoy 6.5s and some headphones.
> If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
> had paid your rent several times over 10 years, How would YOU
> handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
All the thoughts so far are educational and insightful and wise ...
me, I'd get the Tannoy's back too.
--
Perspective is vital to wisdom. It is indeed a good
thing to know that for every ELECTRIC LADYLAND there
were months/years/decades of tracking The Archies.
>> Help Keep The Net Emoticon Free! <<
Paul
> Got five minutes for a bottom feeder?
>
In the end, this is why I chose to not persue a recording studio as a
viable way of making money. I think whats going to happen is that
anyone who wants to make music in a small to medium size studio is
going to have to change their ways if they want to survive. Every
industry that I've ever been in has a barrier to entry. As it ends up
most technology industries (that includes music technology) have made
it easier and easier for people to get into the business b/c of
cheaper tools.
I'll give you an example. When I was out of school, I was trying to
get into 3d game progamming. As it ends up, the people who really knew
their stuff and had an incredible background in mathematics and knew
all the ins and outs of the hardware display system were the only ones
who could make a living in the industry. As time went on cheaper, even
free tools came out so anyone who knew a little c++ and a little
linear algebra could get a job making games if they were willing to
read some readily available books and work hard.
So, too bad for all the early day programmers who spent years trying
to optimize for hardware that doesn't exist anymore. But we all
learned (or tried to) change our way of doing business to survive in
the industry.
My point. Times have changed. The barrier has come way down. Now
everyone can go out and record their own stuff. Yea, it really
probably won't sound as good as your studio but guess what. There's no
time limit at all, and god damn its fun to experiment, which is much
harder to do when you're on the clock. Plus, you get to own the
equipment and maybe one day have a studio of your own.
There's got to be a change in the way business is done for small to
medium size studio owners. Its been coming for a long long time so
everyone's had plenty of time to see it coming. Its here, and it aint
gonna get better.
Paul
Scott Dorsey
>
>If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
>had paid your rent several times over 10 years, How would YOU
>handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
Discussion is futile. If they haven't figured out out in the last few
years, they aren't going to figure it out. And hey, maybe they just enjoy
fiddling around with equipment.
Don't worry, they'll be back.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2003-04-08 ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com said:
>I need to have a serious discussion with a client..., maybe.
>I think I have pretty well surrendered myself to the fact that I am
>probably about to lose a client of 10 years to his new home studio,
>a Roland JV-2480cd... in a 8x20 rehearsal room with an RA-100,
>a spare set of my Tannoy 6.5s and some headphones.
>These gentlemen have tasted the D&R & Mistubishi for the past five
>years and they have taken a spin or three in the Hidley Sierra room
>with TADs and a nice custom MCI . Before that, we knocked around
>on a Mackie 8-Buss with a Tascam MSR-24S or DA-88s. We have a
>long history together.
>If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
>had paid your rent several times over 10 years, How would YOU
>handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
I'd get my Tannoys back. Like them btw.
I'm with others here, theyll be back. Your mixing chops and
production skills will bring them back when they can't achieve the
results in the back room at home they think they ought to get.
Another question: DId they use your nice piano?
Reason I mention this is my desire to use a real piano instead of the
synthetic ones. Back where I lived in Iowa every studio I took
clients to when my home wouldn't cut the gig didn't have a real piano.
HOwever my church choir director who's a real good musician was
telling me about a place over here on the west bank which has a nice
grand and reasonable rates. I'm going to hit her up for a referral
and an intro to the studio owner. Like to see if he's willing to let
me bring in my machine to capture some piano tracks for my next cd
project using their grand.
THere are things you can't do in the back room, space and gear being
foremost, but the chops of the driver as well. I'd get my monitors
back but otherwise i'd keep the door open.
Regards,
Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
Amateur radio callsign nf5b
replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email.
SOrry about the spam block... but
This account is spam free, and the decoder ring is simple to use.
"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get
yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to
go about repeating the very phrases which our founding
fathers used in the struggle for independence."
--
Charles A. Beard (1874-1948), U.S. historian
--
Braille: support true literacy for the blind!
Jny Vee
>...Times have changed. The barrier has come way down. Now
> everyone can go out and record their own stuff. Yea, it really
> probably won't sound as good as your studio but guess what. There's no
> time limit at all, and god damn its fun to experiment, which is much
> harder to do when you're on the clock. Plus, you get to own the
> equipment and maybe one day have a studio of your own.
>
> There's got to be a change in the way business is done for small to
> medium size studio owners. Its been coming for a long long time so
> everyone's had plenty of time to see it coming. Its here, and it aint
> gonna get better.
Car build/repair/maint,
house build/repair/maint,
lawn build/repair/maint,
Why/when do -you- decide to hire a pro/contractor instead of DIY or
buy-off-the-shelf at K-mart?
How has this changed over the last 100 years, as commerce has shifted
from treating the populace not so much as a buyer of SERVICES but as a
buyer of THINGS (and yeah it gets more fun with the last 20 years of
Things getting used as loss-leaders for long-term-contrct Services a'la
telecom industry) ?
For years now, as regards the recording industry (of which I'm a small
insignificant participant), I've been put in mind of the 1940-50-60's
Home Shop Craze (Buy this tablesaw/lathe/planer/joiner and make $$$$ in
your spare time at home!) and what it did to the local
handyman/carpenter business.
The biggest difference is that 'carpenter' never had a Movie Star
celebrity element to it to really make EVERYBODY want to dive in. I
think we're still a good 20 years or better away from people being able
to really get rid of the "I have a CD of my music so I have status"
nonsense that came from a time when, like any industry, the very nature
of marshalling the cumulative expense and expertise and machinery
needed to arrange, record, press, distribute and MARKET a record, made
the selection process as to who was WORTH spending that investment -on-
quite serious and daunting, and the folks that passed muster indeed
WERE of a calibre to deserve the status that came with having made it
through the process.
What we're left with, now that any Harry Home Handyman can afford the
tools that are being agressively-marketted via the now-ersatz social
status of being able to hold up One's Very Own Record as prima-facie
evidence of being 'One Of The Few, The Proud, The Worth-Recording', is
the musical equivalent of lame-designed, badly-built, horridly-finished
bookshelves, kitchen cabinets and rec-rooms where previously, any
number of perfectly-competant local carpenters and other craftsmen
would have been making a fair living doing these things well, at very
reasonable affordable and practical rates, for the community.
Between the year-or-3 time it takes for one to painfully try and Do It
All At Home, the inability of most folks to actually take a big broad
look at what's involved, and the ego-driven "I Wanna BE A Recording
Industry Pro" cachet (with the gear-industry's shameless enthusiasm to
hang continuing sales on that hook), it's hardly a wonder that we're
where we are... or that the resultant product filling the air anymore
is so excreble. The patrons are not only telling Leonardo WHAT they
want him to paint, but HOW to PAINT it, and it better not cost more
than the Acme Master Artist Toolkit in on sale this week in town (with
free included CDrom version of CanvasMaster 5.3 with the Italian
Masters Style Plugin set!) , and if Leo tries to bring up the little
fact that -he- may well be the talented and trained cluefull expert on
those decisions, well, Mr. Patron is WELL aware he can hop on down to
The Walmart and buy them there paints, brushes and other
artist-thinigies and have a go... how hard can it BE after all!
Maybe we need to look at the divide that happened in Photography:
We all own cameras for snapshots
We all know the local Sears or other Quick-and-decent yearly Family
Portrait Place
We all know the Pro Wedding photographer
We all know the local Serious Portrait and/or Commercial/Industrial
Photo
Again, problem is that damned cross-over of assumed-competancy... not
many MODELS actually assume they can TAKE the pictures.
Scott Dorsey
>
>The biggest difference is that 'carpenter' never had a Movie Star
>celebrity element to it to really make EVERYBODY want to dive in.
What about Jesus? He made it big. Bigger than the Beatles, even.
Jny Vee
Dorsey) wrote:
> Jny Vee <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote:
> >
> >The biggest difference is that 'carpenter' never had a Movie Star
> >celebrity element to it to really make EVERYBODY want to dive in.
>
> What about Jesus? He made it big.
yeah but how many folks you see with "interior woodwork by Jesus"
plaques on the door?
Well, aside from Jesus Ramirez, the finish-carpentry contractor over in
Crestview...
> Bigger than the Beatles, even.
Well, Certainly bigger than Rod...
Dik LeDoux
news:b6uqm4$glk$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> What about Jesus? He made it big. Bigger than the Beatles, even.
Not according to John Lennon... no?
hee hee
Dik
Mike Rivers
In article <YJuka.20658$7w2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net> ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com writes:
> I need to have a serious discussion with a client..., maybe.
Sounds to me like you should do what they're asking (book time to
transfer tracks to their workstation) and wish them well. You should
leave the door open, offering to book time for them to mix once they
get all their fixed done, their overdubs overdubbed, and the edits
sorted out, and see if they take you up on it.
You should also ask, as a favor from them to you, that you be given a
copy of the master before they print the liner notes, and get the
option of not including your name as engineer on tracks that you
wouldn't be happy to have your name associated with.
Unfortunately the business is going in this direction and you need to
make the best of it. Perhaps the "big discussion" should be along the
lines of working out a plan where they can take advantage of their
toys and free time, and take advantage of your mics, room, and
experience when it's appropriate. You obviously aren't going to
convince them to do the whole project with you, but you might be able
to work along with them.
One approach would be (for a new project of course) to have them bring
in their VS, spend a Saturday doing rhythm tracks, then spend the next
month doing the leads at home and working out vocal parts. Then book
another Saturday or a few evenings during the month to track vocals.
Let them do the comps and make the mixing decisions at home, then do
the final mix at your studio.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mri...@d-and-d.com)
geek
enough that having them "go away" didn't hurt too much. They called from
time to time asking specific "What would you do?" or "How do we do this?"
type of questions. I always answered to the best of my ability and kept the
communication channels open. The result? I'm now mixing the result of them
going away for 2 years to perfect their craft. What a pleasure!! The tracks
actually sound great! They played really well, and went through all of the
hair pulling and arguing at home instead of in my studio. They dropped off
the machine, said "please mix this" and then went away. I've finished the
mix, had them review it, made a few adjustments and now we're heading to
mastering. Keep in mind this is strictly an indie project, small production,
medium ambition, but had I taken offense to the fact that they wanted to do
it themselves I would have probably would have cost myself one of the "bread
and butter" gigs that keeps the lights on during down time.
Be nice. Let them know that you're available to mix/master/track whatever
they need you to. Hey who knows? They may be able to get the beds down fine,
but need the quality and expertise to track the vocals or critical
instruments and mix the end result. Make the suggestion.
Mike.
--
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
news:YJuka.20658$7w2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Harvey Gerst
>Got five minutes for a bottom feeder?
>
>I need to have a serious discussion with a client..., maybe.
>
>I think I have pretty well surrendered myself to the fact that I am
>probably about to lose a client of 10 years to his new home studio,
>a Roland JV-2480cd.
>
>Well... we haven't done a session since they bought, "The Machine".
>With maybe only 8 hours and a half-dozen vocal tracks remaining
>until it's time to mix... the inevitable e-mail arrived this morning :
>
> "I need to schedule some studio time with you. I want to get a big
> enough chunk of time to come make a copy of all the tracks from
> "Rocks" onto my VS 2480cd".
>
>If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
>had paid your rent several times over 10 years, how would YOU
>handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
David,
They now own the Roland. There's nothing you can say at this point that will
change that. All you can do is wish them the best of luck and let them know
your studio is available to them if they run into a problem with their limited
resources. Let them know that the limits of their current setup may not give
them enough accurate information, or their limited mic selection and room might
need some outside help from time to time, and you're available to help make
their vision of their music a reality, if they feel they need your help.
Since they didn't feel your "friendship" was valuable enough to warrant
continuing to use your services, you should charge them accordingly for any
future services you provide them, even if they just want some advice.
Home studios don't bother me as much as bands going to shitty studios around
here and coming out with crap products that make us all look bad. There are 8
million bands in North Texas - 7,999,950 of these bands need a decent CD of
their work. There'll be another band walking thru your door any minute.
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
Chris Johnson
Everybody says that.
Nah.
Go here: http://www.makestickers.com/home.asp
Make a bumper sticker that says, in two skinny strips,
"Not sounding right? Take it to Morgan Audio Media Service (214)
662-9901"
Cut them out, stick them in an attractive position on the front of
the Tannoys, and leave the Tannoys with your hobbyist friends >:)
They can hardly bitch, and if anybody asks, they have to say "why,
that's the pro who lets me use his Tannoys. Isn't even charging me to
use them, he just came in and put these stickers on them, that's the
only condition"
Then you can hope that your friend's place gets overrun by people
doing amateur work that Doesn't Sound Right. Not that that would ever
happen ;)
Chris Johnson
Romeo Rondeau
Jny Vee
Chris Johnson <jinx...@sover.net> wrote:
> Make a bumper sticker that says, in two skinny strips,
>
> Not sounding right? Take it to
Morgan Audio Media Service (214) 662-9901"
>
> Cut them out, stick them in an attractive position on the front of
> the Tannoys, and leave the Tannoys with your hobbyist friends >:)
> if anybody asks, they have to say "why,
> that's the pro who lets me use his Tannoys. Isn't even charging me to
> use them, he just came in and put these stickers on them, that's the
> only condition"
brutally ingenious...
Analogeezer
>
>
> I need to have a serious discussion with a client..., maybe.
<SNIP>
I'd try to be civil about it, as others have suggested chances are
they will be back. It sounds like they are really more into music and
playing more than they are into gear.
It might work to their benefit to record in your space, overdub on the
Roland, then mix back at your place if they can't mix to their
satisfaction.
There are a couple of facets to this:
1. Some people like working on things more than enjoying the use of
them, e.g. people that buy project cars or motorcycles, then sell them
for another basket case once they get the first project restored, up,
and running.
I know a guy that does this all the time, once he put a killer stereo
in his truck by himself, and a month later it was all ripped
out..."problem" I asked, "No he said, I just wanted to try something
else". Go figure...
Some people like and enjoy doing their own home improvements...much to
my wife's dismay I'm not one of those guys.
A lot of home recordists fall into this category, it's a fun and cool
thing to do, beats the hell out of watching sports on TV.
It's all about the gear and the process; the end product is not really
that important.
These guys don't sound like they fall into that category, they sound
like they are buying the toys to "save money", which can be false
economy....resale on that Roland in a few years is going to be next to
nothing, if you are going to buy recording gear it pays to buy the
high end stuff you can resell later, but that tends to be expensive.
These guys sound more like they have fallen into the:
2. Perceived savings trap
This group realizes it costs them $5000 to record and mix their demo.
Back in the old days, you could recoup this cost by selling your tapes
at $5 each at gigs....500 tapes (not too hard to do) and you made back
half your money or thereabouts. 1000 tapes and you broke even.
These days CD's are more of a business card, most people would laugh
at paying money for a non-commercial CD, hell most people don't want
to pay for commercially released CD's.
People will pay to hear your band, but they don't want to pay for that
CD.
So based on this, people perceive that recording studio time as a big
money suck...sure they got a great sounding CD but then they can't
really recoup the cost by selling it as product.
So at this point, buying your own hardware makes sense to them....they
figure hey I still spent $5000, but at least I got all this stuff, AND
now I have a CD too.
The reason why I call it the perceived savings trap is the reality is
they never get a product that sounds as good as from the real
studio...then again this might not be that important to a weekend
warrior band.
But then when it comes time to move on, upgrade, or get out of
recording, that $5000 in prosumer gear becomes a $1000 used sale, if
you can get people to even buy the stuff.
So the reality is you have spent $4000 on a demo that does not sound
as good as the $5000 one did.
The question these kinds of people need to ask themselves is "was the
extra $1000 spent on fun, or was it aggravating?"
If you are a gear slut, or just enjoy recording, then the $1000 might
be well worth the experience, but if dealing with the technology and
the bitching of your bandmates about the sound was a royal PITA, then
you are not really ahead.
These kinds of people would really be better off blowing that extra
money on botique amps, vintage guitars, synths (vintage and
otherwise), etc. stuff that they could bring to the studio that the
studio would not normally have (well a high end place might, but I
take it we're not talking about places that have 59 Les Pauls
available) and use it to make their recordings sound better.
Given the fact that cheap recording gear has been around for over 10
years now, you did pretty well to keep these guys that long as
clients....I'd just let it go, I mean do the transfer and get your
Tannoys back, but be civil about it, maybe check in from time to
time...even go by their space and check on their progress.
There might be a point at which they realize it's all a big PITA and
they have made a mistake and come back to you, hopefully they'll
remember you weren't all pissy about it.
Analogeezer
Harvey Gerst
>Got their phone numbers? :-)
>>Harvey <har...@ITRstudio.com> wrote:
>>Home studios don't bother me as much as bands going to shitty studios
>>around here and coming out with crap products that make us all look bad.
>>There are 8 million bands in North Texas - 7,999,950 of these bands need
>>a decent CD of their work. There'll be another band walking thru your
>>door any minute.
Actually, the biggest opportunity in this area is from band members who switch
groups often. Do a good job for the first group and after they break up, you
get work from four or five new groups, all with former members of the first
group.
Mike
> Problem with these people is, no matter how good you make them sound,
> they will be dissatisfied, because they do not sound the way they'd
> like to, no matter if that's posible, at all. I keep jumping into
> people wanting their nasal voices sound like Elvis, their Ibanezes
> like Les Pauls, their pianinos like Steinway grands...., their average
> playing skills turn into virtuose,...
===>>That is pretty much every client. No one is ever satisfied except
people going into the studio for the first time. They are often quite
awed.
I am wondering though, how did most of you who studio owners/purveyors
get started in this business? You either did an apprenticeship with a
studio, or went to a school, or you were a musician who from a
culmination of experience in the studio, opened your own. That is how
these things happen.
Truth is, if you have good equipment, the best way to record your
music effeciently is to have someone else do it for you. If a
musician is serious about recording his or her music in a timely
manner, without the creative flow being broken, they will have someone
else do it. What some of you might offer, is your engineering
services, maybe along with a few of your best mics and pres, on site.
It might still come out cheaper for them, and you could be doing a
little work with no overhead.
Mike Rivers
> Why/when do -you- decide to hire a pro/contractor instead of DIY or
> buy-off-the-shelf at K-mart?
When it requires that I rent a truck or own a van in order to get
materials from where I buy them to where I'm going to use them. Full
service hardware stores and lumber yards have gone the way of the
compact car.
> What we're left with, now that any Harry Home Handyman can afford the
> tools that are being agressively-marketted via the now-ersatz social
> status of being able to hold up One's Very Own Record as prima-facie
> evidence of being 'One Of The Few, The Proud, The Worth-Recording', is
> the musical equivalent of lame-designed, badly-built, horridly-finished
> bookshelves, kitchen cabinets and rec-rooms where previously, any
> number of perfectly-competant local carpenters and other craftsmen
> would have been making a fair living doing these things well, at very
> reasonable affordable and practical rates, for the community.
The sad part about this is that today there are people selling their
services as carpenters or handymen who can't do work as good as I can.
Remind me to show you a window frame that I had repaired last year, or
the new siding on the back of my garage. Not too far off from the dood
with the band who buys a VS2490 and tells all the other doods with
bands "I have a studio and I'll record you for $15/hour."
Analogeezer
Yeah but wait for that market...the next thing will be software to
"process" your home photos to make them look like they were taken by
the pros...
As far as carpentry goes, I have several friends that are in the
business (DC area) but they work the high end. These guys have more
work than they can shake a plumbob at, and make about $100k a year.
They are true artisans though, not hacks...the one guy's speciality is
stairs and he's done them for some well known people (nationally known
media reporters, Supreme court justices, Politicos etc.)
These kinds of pros were never seriously hurt by the home handyman
folks, but the problem with carpenters is there are three drunk,
incompetent ones for every artisan...I know this because I know a few
of them as well (the drunk incompetent ones) and I think some other
ones built my house...
Analogeezer
willp17
Well, I'm guessin' that all of us who own studios have been in a
similiar situation. My advice is to do what you need to do to take
care of yourself. They don't do this for a living, you do. Charge
them what you need to have to give them what they're asking for. If
they come back - great! If not - chalk it up. Don't fall into the
trap of feeling betrayed. Remember that it's called the Music
BUSINESS for a reason. Friends are friends, but this is business.
Hey, they may NOT come back. But, y'know that you need to have new
business anyway to survive. Just be happy that you had a client
relationship that lasted that long. I'm just talking from my own
relative experience (owned a studio for a long time) and in no way
mean to be bustin' your chops. As to that talk, I'd say skip it.
Unless you just wanna say "Good luck!".
Will P.
CCC
Romeo Rondeau
you can usually count on at least two coming back in other bands. One will
quit the business altogether and one will go somwhere more expensive in an
attempt to out-do the other two.
Michael Angel
it- hehe.
Looking at the load of response, you can definitely see you aren't alone.
I've got one client that I used to record in my early tracking days that stuck
around when I first went into mastering. Unfortunately, he didn't make the
transition as well as I did.
I reluctantly agreed to record a live gig of a band he was a huge follower of,
set up for a reference two-track off the main mix plus set up a stereo pair
mid-room aimed at the stage over the audience.
When it came time to prepare the tracks for mastering, it really needed to be
evened out both sonically and dynamically. Their playing was good and general
sound fine, but it needed work done to specific frequencies and some attention
song by song. The client wanted the "unedited, live feel" to go to disc, so we
compromised. Then, one of the band members had a 'contact' at a replicator they
insisted on. Of course they went cheap on graphic art and ended up not
following spec and that extra money saved went out the window.
Then, the band didn't want any official release of the disc in stores bc they
had IRS problems for unclaimed money from gigs. Etc. Etc. Etc.
This same client who was fine when it came to tracking his own material, still
insists that I hold on to old DAT's in case he ever does something with the
mixes from back when. Not that by being in the business I have some magic wand
that prevents digital errors from building over the years. I've come to feel
that if the client thinks they know best, let them wander around in the audio
world for a bit and do it themselves. It saves everyone headaches in the end.
But, if you want god professional sound and haven't tinkered yourself, it's
probably a good idea to throw in what you like hearing and leave it to the
professionals.
Michael Angel
Mange...@aol.com
Angel Lofte Studio, Atlanta
32 Bit CD Mastering
nuke
>probably about to lose a client of 10 years to his new home studio,
Well, maybe I can chime in here.
I bought the toys. I can work them pretty well. I can even magically get
digital recordings of electric guitars to sound right. (seems to be a common
newbie learning curve).
However, I've come to several conclusions along the way:
1. I'd rather write and perform the music than operate the equipment.
2. No amount of plugins or other bolt-on, glue-on, hang-it-on the wall fixes
will make a shitty sounding room sound good. At best, you can turn a lively
shitty sounding room into a dead shitty sounding room. 99.9% of rooms built
into regular homes are shitty sounding.
3. I can't afford to own a good sounding room in Silicon Valley. Especially not
one who's sole purpose is to advance my own vanity.
So I'm about to reverse directions here. I'm probably going to ditch the home
studio setup (eBay, can you hear me calling your name?) I only wish to own
enough recording gear to do songwriting sketches for my bandmates to hear. Then
we'll go play them. In front of people and see how they do. We'll keep the ones
that work.
The ones that seem to work, will go and get studio time to actually record in a
properly equipped room, with proper equipment and someone who knows how to run
the equipment.
(hint: spam me if you are within driving distance of Silicon Valley and own a
properly equipped studio, with a good sounding room and equipment and good
engineers to run the stuff. We'll talk.)
I'll play producer. Unless that requires rolling fatties. I have a notion what
a fattie is, I'm not at all certain how to roll one since I'm not a consumer of
them.
I may take the work home with me to edit and rough mix in Pro Tools LE, or
maybe the studio will get the work.
Like I said, I'd prefer to write and perform than diddle the buttons.
--
Dr. Nuketopia
Spam filtering is off. AO-Hell catches most of it now.
Leo
>Jny Vee <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote:
>>
>>The biggest difference is that 'carpenter' never had a Movie Star
>>celebrity element to it to really make EVERYBODY want to dive in.
>
>What about Jesus? He made it big. Bigger than the Beatles, even.
>--scott
Didn't the Beatles set up a home studio and record themselves? I heard
they were quite good at it...
Leo
Tongue firmly in cheek...
Mike Rivers
> Back in the old days, you could recoup this cost by selling your tapes
> at $5 each at gigs....500 tapes (not too hard to do) and you made back
> half your money or thereabouts. 1000 tapes and you broke even.
>
> These days CD's are more of a business card, most people would laugh
> at paying money for a non-commercial CD, hell most people don't want
> to pay for commercially released CD's.
>
> People will pay to hear your band, but they don't want to pay for that
> CD.
>
> So based on this, people perceive that recording studio time as a big
> money suck...sure they got a great sounding CD but then they can't
> really recoup the cost by selling it as product.
Interesting position, but I thought that the reason why people
recorded CDs was to SELL THEM. And the reason to record them cheaply
(as in "I own the equipment and I'm not paying for studio time) is to
be able to sell them a few bucks cheaper than commercial CDs at retail
stores and still make more per disk than any single link in the
commercial chain. Are you telling me that there are 100,000 ADAT
owners out there who have 1000 CDs that they haven't sold? Sure, you
give away a lot more product than you used to, but the trick (as
always) is to give it away to people who will expose new potential
customers to your music.
> The reason why I call it the perceived savings trap is the reality is
> they never get a product that sounds as good as from the real
> studio...then again this might not be that important to a weekend
> warrior band.
It isn't. Most people who buy those CDs buy them at gigs and don't
listen to them but maybe once or twice - not that they don't like the
sound quality, or the recording, but that there are so many other
things they listen to. Sound quality isn't as big a deal as most
people around here make it to be. Sure it's important, but there are
very few people who will listen to your CD, then say "I would buy it
if it had lower distortion and tighter bass and the vocals were more
in-your-face and the reverb tails were smoother and I couldn't hear
that little buzz on the bass, but I'll pass and wait until you're on a
major label." You do a show, you hawk your CDs, you take their money,
and if you're good, they'll probably come back for another show and
say "I enjoyed your CD."
The real trick is to get you, your CDs, and paying customers together,
and that's what most bands (or one man band singer songwriters) aren't
doing, and why they have stacks of unsold wax. There are about ten
people who are making money selling their CDs off their web sites, the
other 499,990 people are selling maybe five a month, barely enough to
pay the ISB bill, much less the Guitar Center bill.
> So the reality is you have spent $4000 on a demo that does not sound
> as good as the $5000 one did.
Ah, but you saved $1,000. ;)
> The question these kinds of people need to ask themselves is "was the
> extra $1000 spent on fun, or was it aggravating?"
Those who are worried about watching the clock tick will find it
aggravating. This is the primary reason for home recording. I don't
think that once they get down to work, it's ever really fun. But
getting ready to get down to work can be fun, or it can be
frustrating, or it can be rewarding.
Michael Angel
>they were quite good at it...
>
>
>
>Leo
>Tongue firmly in cheek...
Pauls's sound on sound experiments were pretty darn cool:)
DavidMackBlauvelt
> Got five minutes for a bottom feeder?
> I need to have a serious discussion with a client..., maybe.
<snip>
> probably about to lose a client of 10 years to his new home studio
Man,
Some great replies, and I guess I am part of the same demo graph that is partly
responsible for the declining pro/semi-pro-studio business.
The irony is that the same people that are complaining that the majors suck are
the ones bemoaning those of us that have made the emotional and financial decision
to DIY.
Speaking as a weekend warrior, I know of no other way to do it. I've made 2
approx $7K records and have recouped about half in sales. The studio budget was
the next logical thing to eliminate for my business plan. It made sense for me
because I love the AE stuff too. And yes I don't like the clock. As Egghead said,
it beats playing golf and watching TV.
Some of the best pros in my town are always cool with me -- the guys that have
recorded hit records, while the younger PT cats have not returned calls and
obviously wrote me off as a customer. I will use the services of the pros that
have been very helpful with me. The younger guys don't seem to get this. The
business of music is an emotional business -- in that it deals in emotion, but
some AE's are just as emotional as the musicians - usually they are frustrated
musicians. Some AE's will criticize another well respected AE to your face, and
in my experience that is why I eliminate them for possible vibe/work. I would
never use their services -- in fact I ran into one working at the check out
counter of Git Center a month or so back. It's getting ugly. But let me promise
you playing original music in clubs and venues is just as ugly.
This stuff is all connected and in the end we can't really tell where something
interesting and successful might come from, and that's what's interesting about
all of this, and if we are honest I think that's what most of us want to be part
of.
The home studio, however, is not a modern phenomenon. Many "Music' concrete"
composers have always had their own studios.
Things are obviously changing, and if it takes "hobbyists" to resurrect what they
love about music because they can't afford and/or find what they are looking for
in the "industry", well what's a band to do?
Mack
Erwin Timmerman
> Those who are worried about watching the clock tick will find it
> aggravating. This is the primary reason for home recording. I don't
> think that once they get down to work, it's ever really fun. But
> getting ready to get down to work can be fun, or it can be
> frustrating, or it can be rewarding.
It's nice to have both options. When a semi-professional singer of a band (with semi professional I
mean that he isn't very consistent in giving excellent performances) has a good vocal mic for his own
voice, a good pre and recorder, and a room that sounds acceptible, he can record a killer performance
any time he sees fit. Maybe he can record the bass and the keyboards as well. Then he takes those
good performances to a good studio with stellar rooms and use it to record the drums or the acoustic
guitars.
That way the money invested in good room sound is invested when it's needed, and the time at home is
invested to get an excellent performance. When you're a singer and the day booked in the studio is
just not "your day", you can get a great sounding but crappy performance. Especially when you see the
time ticking away and start to realize that today is not the day it is going to work.
Of course, singing lessons is a long time solution, but if a studio record sounds better than the guy
can do live, I'm OK with it. I also don't complain that Yosemite doesn't look as nice in real life
all the time as that it does on the postcards.
Erwin Timmerman
David Morgan (MAMS)
"DavidMackBlauvelt" <dbluefie...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:Xns93581FF775F4db...@198.99.146.10...
> "David Morgan \(MAMS\)" <ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> news:YJuka.20658$7w2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net:
> >
You hang in there, because it would appear that you have a grip on reality.
I've exchanged a few e-mails with the band leaders over the past 36 hours
or so, and I fully understand what they see in the ability to twiddle the knobs
at home and on their own schedule. The latter is a dominating issue.
As many advised, I made myself available for consultation and I have already
been guaranteed some work - which is even a bit more profitable from my
standpoint as an independent who has to pay for studio time. This will be
money that I see 100% of. I will be learning yet another recording device and
trying to discover and surmount it's weaknesses. All is not lost.
DM
DavidMackBlauvelt
> You hang in there, because it would appear that you have a grip on
> reality.
>
> DM
Thanx, you too Dave. Life has a funny way of teaching you what you need to
know. I wish you a prosperous year!
Mack
David Morgan (MAMS)
<Kurt Riemann> wrote in message news:r7059v4a9666ta4kj...@4ax.com...
>
> >Well... we haven't done a session since they bought, "The Machine".
> >With maybe only 8 hours and a half-dozen vocal tracks remaining
> >until it's time to mix... the inevitable e-mail arrived this morning :
> >
> >
> > "I need to schedule some studio time with you. I want to get a big
> > enough chunk of time to come make a copy of all the tracks from
> > "Rocks" onto my VS 2480cd".
> >
> >
> >If you considered these people as friends, as well as clients that
> >handle the impending discussion, or is there even a need for one ??
> It sounds like you're more disappointed in the loyalty factor than
> anything.
Well, I'm not too proud to say that you actually hit the nail on the head
with this one. Everything you alluded to, as in extra time and effort, etc.,
did take place. I have already made the mistake of attempting to woo
them with a flat fee to complete the project, but I'm giving that serious
reconsideration - and Yes, I planned on 'needing' my monitors back
anyway; they have several others from my earlier recommendations.
I offered everything I could as factual data to advise and help them make
a decision, from providing current information to the offering of future help.
(Like the current SOS magazine QA section that makes public the fact
that the distortion specs are waaay out of tolerance on the pre inputs to
this model of VS).
> ...it's a bitch to watch buddies slip under the waves.
It looks as if they will still be asking for some assistance along the way.
I suppose that I *am* lucky to have kept the main client through several
incarnations of bands and for as long as I have. Now the purchase is
made and it must be justified, even if it means using tracks done in the
bigger rooms on different machines.
Admittedly, I am forlorn about not getting to mix a project in which I have
given at least 25% gratis time to assure that the tracking went down as
well as possible without gouging buddies and stiffling creativity with the
'clock' factor. The sessions were remarkably smooth every time. I will
get over the personal thing and look to the business thing.
Thanks for everyone's commentary and input. I've lost them to the
big rooms, but I haven't lost them totally; so as long as my interest
remains, I should see at least some more limited work on this project.
--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
David Morgan (MAMS)
project will be finished in the Hidley room. Out of five guys (who
consider me as number 6), I now have two votes for finishing the
record in the studio, none opposed, yet. The owner of the VS-2480
should be the next to reply.
--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
"Harvey Gerst" <har...@ITRstudio.com> wrote in message news:5DA0E004BBEE7CB8.E58A43A1...@lp.airnews.net...
Bill Thompson
There've been lots of really great replies, but the one thing I haven't
seen discussed is the investment you made in their project.
It's a very hard lesson to learn as a businessman, but the business has
to come first. What makes it even harder is a couple of common traits
I've observed over the years:
1) we all really like what we do... and that enthusiasm tends to cloud
judgement a bit. We become friends, at some level, with most of our
clients, and along the way we start to slide them a little extra time.
Or a lot of extra time<G>!
2) We all seem to have a touch of the mentor in us... probably because
we all had mentors that got us where we are now. And that just further
complicates the whole friends/clients dividing line.
And to be quite candid... I'm pretty terrible on both counts! Which is
why I got out of the studio design/build/maintain business many moons
ago, and why I'm not building my own studio as facility that I'll rent
out. I expect someday to still make a living in this business offering a
variety of services to a variety of folks... but I got here too late to
build a for-hire studio and actually make a living. Oh well.
There is no closing the Pandora's Box that was opened by Mackie, Alesis,
et. al. Musicians who might otherwise never have considered recording
themselves all want to have the capability, and sometimes even for good
reasons... but mostly, I fear, because the marketers tell them they
should and they can.
If I were in your shoes I'd be real nice, real polite, and real firm
about the whole affair. I wouldn't be bashful about the commitment I
made to the project, and I wouldn't be bashful about what I bring to the
project. (Inability to express these things probably ought to go up on
the list above as point 3!)
And I'd set the ground rules to be fair to the business and the clients,
but I'd make them firm, and I'd make sure the business got taken care of.
And I'd do my level best to part on friendly terms so that if/when they
need assistance they'd feel comfortable calling me.
And all of this is really hard, especially since you have some kind of
stake in the completion of the project. Really hard!
I have my tales to tell, of getting taken advantage of by clients, some
probably intended to do so, some probably didn't. And I've handled these
situations well, and I've handled them badly. The thing that sticks in
my mind these days is to try my best to treat them with respect and
courtesy. In the best case they'll return as clients, and in the worst
cases at least it will be on their karma, not mine!
Bill
Vladan
<bi...@audioenterprise.com> wrote:
>If I were in your shoes I'd be real nice, real polite, and real firm
>about the whole affair.
I'd ask my speakers back, anyway. Politely.
I have some people, I worked with for years, abandoned me. Those were
the ones I've finished all the projects, got payed for all of them and
never asked anything from them. They all went to the higher level of
food chain, or thought thay have.
I have other people still being with me for years. For every finished
project there are 2 new started, they are constantly late with
payments, but payments are small, while so numerous it doesn't really
matter. Few times I've learn from "birdies" some of them were leaning
towards other "recording services providers" I'd step up firm and
remind them of thir debths and they would jump crazy not to lose me...
Some of them went to the higher level of food chain, but none of them
gave much shit about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The first and the only rule of business: The show must go on.
For example, if by some missfortune the project is about to end, you
have to make it last by
- moving to the next project
- inventing some nescessarry tangential action (it would be imoral to
plant secret technical flaws easy to blame on customers). CD is
finnished, but there are promo copies to make, live gigs, maybe with
backing tracks to run, everything's to be backed up to several
different places/ media ...
- by deliberatly puting yourself in a position to owe them something,
so they'd call you on that some time. You should pay it back in some
work, hopefully worth more than original debth, so you end up with
cash (ask them to play on your own recording,...).
Vladan
www.mp3.com/lesly
www.mp3.com/shook , www.mp3.com/lesly2
www.kunsttick.com/artists/vuskovic/indexdat.htm
David Morgan (MAMS)
"Bill Thompson" <bi...@audioenterprise.com> wrote in message news:7E2dnbXMQo9...@giganews.com...
> David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>
> There've been lots of really great replies, but the one thing I haven't
> seen discussed is the investment you made in their project.
Bill,
Thanks for your response, albeit somewhat belated.
If you caught the original post, you have hit the nail on the head. Since
this was the second full record for this group (and at least the 5th for the
founding member - an old friend who indeed learned almost everything
he knows about recording from me and his 4-track, then 8-track), I felt
as though my services had become invaluable to him.
> It's a very hard lesson to learn as a businessman, but the business has
> to come first. What makes it even harder is a couple of common traits
> I've observed over the years:
>
> 1) we all really like what we do... and that enthusiasm tends to cloud
> judgement a bit. We become friends, at some level, with most of our
> clients, and along the way we start to slide them a little extra time.
>
> Or a lot of extra time<G>!
Wow. I had prefer to not go there!! I gave literally dozens of hours, mostly
during the setups and soundchecks to assure them that they were spending
their money in a fashion that would yield them the best possible results,
thus making the money that they _did_ spend in this day & age, worthwhile.
I had posted before, that after finishing the last record they took over a year
and all of the money they intended to spend on mastering (solely for the
purpose of maximum volume), to buy software and attempt to master at
home, in the bedroom. I was appalled back then. They circulated so many
of their 'test' runs that virtually no one actually bought the finished product.
Which, by the way, with a full vote of the band, ended up as reverting to my
original DAT mixes passed only once through the Steinberg 'loudness tool'.
This 'home mastering' concept was deployed by my oldest friend. Even
though it didn't really work, he learned a great deal about the Steinberg
software he had purchased. Not to mention that equally depressing, was
the fact that the record could have been mastered in two weeks and 500
copies made for about 1/2 of what was spent on the software that tied them
up in 'experimentation' mode for another year.
> 2) We all seem to have a touch of the mentor in us... probably because
> we all had mentors that got us where we are now. And that just further
> complicates the whole friends/clients dividing line.
I could not agree more, at least concerning the founding member that I just
spoke of. However, in this case, it was another band member who suddenly
decided it was time to start archiving all of their rehearsals in multitrack
form and purchased the Roland VS-2448. I indeed completed the transfer
of their current tracks to the Roland VS-2448. I knew that it was probably
the last I would see of them, even though they continually spoke of eventually
returning to the Hidley room to do the mixing.
> And to be quite candid... I'm pretty terrible on both counts! Which is
> why I got out of the studio design/build/maintain business many moons
> ago, and why I'm not building my own studio as facility that I'll rent
> out. I expect someday to still make a living in this business offering a
> variety of services to a variety of folks... but I got here too late to
> build a for-hire studio and actually make a living. Oh well.
It can still be done, but it's very difficult for the exact reasons you mention
below. Hourly pricing must now be kept competitive - so much so, that the
average new, full blown facility can not make enough profit to cover the
overhead - unless they have prearanged for some commercial production
deals or have established major label agreements already in hand.
> There is no closing the Pandora's Box that was opened by Mackie, Alesis,
> et. al. Musicians who might otherwise never have considered recording
> themselves all want to have the capability, and sometimes even for good
> reasons... but mostly, I fear, because the marketers tell them they
> should and they can.
Don't forget to add Roland to that list. This has probably the most
incompatible line of recorders ever made. Until this model, they were
extremely proprietary and would not interface to the real world at all.
There were also some clock issues that prevented the accurate transfer
of tracks back into another format. SMPTE was a complete failure and
even word clock drifted so as to prevent accurate track alignment over
a period of minutes.
> If I were in your shoes I'd be real nice, real polite, and real firm
> about the whole affair. I wouldn't be bashful about the commitment I
> made to the project, and I wouldn't be bashful about what I bring to the
> project. (Inability to express these things probably ought to go up on
> the list above as point 3!)
I did my best, but it may have been to no avail. It was difficult to tell old
friends that I was feeling a little betrayed and somewhat f***ed over.
I've mentioned this before, too... that after agreeing that the last record was
thier best overall result ever, they decided to use me again - - so I once
again gave ultimately liberal pre-recording time to make certain that I could
beat my last work and make their money, once again, well spent. That
figure probably hovered at a 20% reduction on their overall bill, not to
mention the addition of what I would normally allow a free set-up time.
I ran a DAT of the control room mixes of each of the main tracking sessions.
My friend had grown fond of his Steinberg "free filter" - which samples the
overall EQ curve of a chosen 'benchmark' song and compares it to the
tracks in question, showing an average difference and where to compensate.
I felt somewhat enshrined by the band as they reported that they believed
something was awry with the tool, as there was NO difference curve
generated by the filter. I had hit the nail on the head during tracking, no less...
meaning a faders-up mix was possible and that I could easily tweak the best
record yet for my friend. All we had left to do was mix when the 2448 came
into the picture.
> And I'd set the ground rules to be fair to the business and the clients,
> but I'd make them firm, and I'd make sure the business got taken care of.
Seeing as how this makes probably a dozen formerly faithfull clients lost
to home recording-in-a-box systems, I will be much more keenly aware
of this in the future. It's a tough call, because being certain that your
clients leave believing that they got just a little more than their money's
worth, is still very important to me. I thrive off of repeat business, so
sometimes this can be done from a pure quality standpoint, but other
times it takes a wee bit more. Where to draw the line?
> And I'd do my level best to part on friendly terms so that if/when they
> need assistance they'd feel comfortable calling me.
Initially, we parted that way. However, it was inevitable that the facts
of everyday life play their role in reality. The bass player now has twins
and both parents must work to support them. The guitar player that
purchased the 2448 is now on the road with his job almost 85% of his
daily life. (He writes me from airplanes most of the time). My old friend
is now trying to start a couple of new bands, but his job with Raytheon
has him tied to the wall since it's defense oriented. The drummer is now
a regional manager for a pizza chain and travels constantly as well. The
second guitarist also took a major promotion with a large department
store chain as the senior networking advisor and is always 'on call'.
To make a long story short, the band could have finished the mixes,
paid for mastering and pressed 500 CDs with far less money than
they spent on the 2448 and been done back at Christmas time.
Now.... they are essentially defunct.
They had indeed promised me work at their home, helping with the
mixes, etc., but that will never happen. Since March, only two of them,
my old friend and the 2448 owner, have played with mixing only 1 song.
No one else was present.
> And all of this is really hard, especially since you have some kind of
> stake in the completion of the project. Really hard!
A couple of people, like Kurt Reimann (and yourself), were completely
correct in that the main reason for my post was probably the crumbling
of my own ego and self-worth. This would have been one of my best
projects ever, from a quality standpoint - - and there were songs that I
would likely have helped to push to the ends of the earth. This sort of
thing strikes home pretty deeply.
> I have my tales to tell, of getting taken advantage of by clients, some
> probably intended to do so, some probably didn't. And I've handled these
> situations well, and I've handled them badly. The thing that sticks in
> my mind these days is to try my best to treat them with respect and
> courtesy. In the best case they'll return as clients, and in the worst
> cases at least it will be on their karma, not mine!
I think I am over it now. I'll probably never hear the songs again and the
band will never again see the light of day. I did my best and they have
possession of the tracks to prove it. I suppose that's all I can ask for.
Although the loss of income, or better put, the *investment* I made in
a project that I had faith in, still haunts me a bit, as well as being only
a few hours away from finishing what could have been some of my
best work ever. Hmmm... maybe I'm not over it yet....
> Bill
David Morgan (MAMS)
"Vladan" <lux...@eunet.yu> wrote in message news:vtusdvs9bcqmgib66...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 17:54:28 -0400, Bill Thompson
> <bi...@audioenterprise.com> wrote:
>
> >If I were in your shoes I'd be real nice, real polite, and real firm
> >about the whole affair.
>
> I'd ask my speakers back, anyway. Politely.
Oh... you remember. ;-)
I still haven't done that yet, but I am about to. I'm certain they are not
using them any longer.
> I have some people, I worked with for years, abandoned me. Those were
> the ones I've finished all the projects, got payed for all of them and
> never asked anything from them.
Unfortunately, not only did I not finish the project, but they likely won't either;
and if they do, it will be as a matter of passtime for only a couple of them.
> They all went to the higher level of
> food chain, or thought thay have.
believe me, if these guys haad been taking the track to a higher level on the
food chain, I would have been just as proud and happy for them - - but moving
it to the bedroom from a Hidley/Sierra room, was quite a depressing scenario
with nothing but the most bleak outcome possible in my vision.
> The first and the only rule of business: The show must go on.
Were it not for that, I'd still be lamenting this little occurance.
Thanks for the thoughts....