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Drum circle micing techniques?
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Dave O'Heare
May 23, 2013, 2:15:22 PM5/23/13
to
I have a gig coming up that I've done a couple of times before,
and I'm looking for suggestions to improve things.
It's an Aboriginal arts festival, with a number (up to 20,
perhaps) of competing drum circles and a number of competing
dancers. Each circle has a drum, on a low stand, beater side up,
with the players (6 to 12) in a circle around the drum. All the
drummers sing as well. The drummers are under a large tent
canopy to protect from sun and rain, the dancers are outside
unless it rains. Each drum circle does one song, then the next
circle, etc.
What I'm looking for is a way to mic the drum circle to get the
sound into the PA. Traditional method is a wireless SM58 on a
long boom, pointing straight up, fairly near the drumhead. This
picks up the vocalists okay, and the drums okay, but it could
be better; clearer vocals, more snap in the drum sound. It gets
in the way a little bit, it requires a boom op with a clue, and
frankly I like these folks, I want stuff to be as good as
possible.
Ideally I'd put a lav on each drummer to pick up their singing,
and use the lav's drum sound as good enough, but that's not
logistically reasonable. The locations of the drum circles are
not set ahead of time, so suspending mics overhead wouldn't be
much better.
Any thoughts, folks? Mostly I'm concerned about the singers;
the drums are loud enough.
Many thanks,
Dave O'H
and I'm looking for suggestions to improve things.
It's an Aboriginal arts festival, with a number (up to 20,
perhaps) of competing drum circles and a number of competing
dancers. Each circle has a drum, on a low stand, beater side up,
with the players (6 to 12) in a circle around the drum. All the
drummers sing as well. The drummers are under a large tent
canopy to protect from sun and rain, the dancers are outside
unless it rains. Each drum circle does one song, then the next
circle, etc.
What I'm looking for is a way to mic the drum circle to get the
sound into the PA. Traditional method is a wireless SM58 on a
long boom, pointing straight up, fairly near the drumhead. This
picks up the vocalists okay, and the drums okay, but it could
be better; clearer vocals, more snap in the drum sound. It gets
in the way a little bit, it requires a boom op with a clue, and
frankly I like these folks, I want stuff to be as good as
possible.
Ideally I'd put a lav on each drummer to pick up their singing,
and use the lav's drum sound as good enough, but that's not
logistically reasonable. The locations of the drum circles are
not set ahead of time, so suspending mics overhead wouldn't be
much better.
Any thoughts, folks? Mostly I'm concerned about the singers;
the drums are loud enough.
Many thanks,
Dave O'H
Tobiah
May 23, 2013, 3:49:38 PM5/23/13
to
> Each circle has a drum, on a low stand, beater side up,
> with the players (6 to 12) in a circle around the drum.
with a 6 foot diameter with 12 people around it all
playing the same drum. If that's the case, do you
have pictures?
Tobiah
Mike Rivers
May 23, 2013, 4:39:04 PM5/23/13
to
On 5/23/2013 2:15 PM, Dave O'Heare wrote:
> It's an Aboriginal arts festival, with a number (up to 20,
> perhaps) of competing drum circles and a number of competing
> dancers. Each circle has a drum, on a low stand, beater side up,
> with the players (6 to 12) in a circle around the drum. All the
> drummers sing as well.
I once recorded an indian powwow that was a similar setup. I used a
> It's an Aboriginal arts festival, with a number (up to 20,
> perhaps) of competing drum circles and a number of competing
> dancers. Each circle has a drum, on a low stand, beater side up,
> with the players (6 to 12) in a circle around the drum. All the
> drummers sing as well.
single omni mic (an AKG C-451 wiht CK2 capsule, if I remember correctly)
hung about four feet above the center of the drum. I also had a stereo
pair of C-451s with cardioid capsules (CK1) about 8 feet back and about
5 feet up. The leader (and lead singer) always sat facing the "audience"
(and the stereo pair, with the drum between him and the mics). The
stereo mics were the main pickup, the overhead omni was just for good
measure, mixed in a little if it didn't get in the way.
The only thing that went into the PA system at that affair, though, was
the announcer's mic. The drum and singers made so much of a racket that
it was no problem hearing them anywhere in the campground.
--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
Dave O'Heare
May 23, 2013, 9:43:09 PM5/23/13
to
Tobiah <to...@tobiah.org> wrote in news:Tount.5177$ZU7....@newsfe28.iad:
I have a pic posted at <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=
10151607204542436&set=a.10151607204492436.1073741825.562857435>
That gives a pretty good idea of what's going on.
The drum is around 3 ft diameter in this case -- some are larger,
some smaller.
>
> Tobiah
>
10151607204542436&set=a.10151607204492436.1073741825.562857435>
That gives a pretty good idea of what's going on.
The drum is around 3 ft diameter in this case -- some are larger,
some smaller.
>
> Tobiah
>
Dave O'Heare
May 23, 2013, 9:56:28 PM5/23/13
to
Mike Rivers <mm1...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:knluhg$k8q$1...@dont-email.me:
> On 5/23/2013 2:15 PM, Dave O'Heare wrote:
>
>> It's an Aboriginal arts festival,
>
to lead, so they all have to be picked up. And they don't necessarily
take the lead in order.
> The only thing that went into the PA system at that affair, though, was
> the announcer's mic. The drum and singers made so much of a racket that
> it was no problem hearing them anywhere in the campground.
They make a lot of sound, true, but much is trapped by the tent, and
the dancers keep asking for more volume so they can *feel* the beat
as well as hear it.
I think what I want is a mic with 360 degree pickup in one plane, but
virtually nothing above or below that plane. Imagine the beam of a
lighthouse through a full revolution (gee I'm lousy with images...)
> On 5/23/2013 2:15 PM, Dave O'Heare wrote:
>
>> It's an Aboriginal arts festival,
>
> I once recorded an indian powwow that was a similar setup. I used a
> single omni mic (an AKG C-451 wiht CK2 capsule, if I remember correctly)
> hung about four feet above the center of the drum. I also had a stereo
> pair of C-451s with cardioid capsules (CK1) about 8 feet back and about
> 5 feet up. The leader (and lead singer) always sat facing the "audience"
> (and the stereo pair, with the drum between him and the mics). The
> stereo mics were the main pickup, the overhead omni was just for good
> measure, mixed in a little if it didn't get in the way.
Unfortunately in competition, every member of the group takes a turn
> single omni mic (an AKG C-451 wiht CK2 capsule, if I remember correctly)
> hung about four feet above the center of the drum. I also had a stereo
> pair of C-451s with cardioid capsules (CK1) about 8 feet back and about
> 5 feet up. The leader (and lead singer) always sat facing the "audience"
> (and the stereo pair, with the drum between him and the mics). The
> stereo mics were the main pickup, the overhead omni was just for good
> measure, mixed in a little if it didn't get in the way.
to lead, so they all have to be picked up. And they don't necessarily
take the lead in order.
> The only thing that went into the PA system at that affair, though, was
> the announcer's mic. The drum and singers made so much of a racket that
> it was no problem hearing them anywhere in the campground.
the dancers keep asking for more volume so they can *feel* the beat
as well as hear it.
I think what I want is a mic with 360 degree pickup in one plane, but
virtually nothing above or below that plane. Imagine the beam of a
lighthouse through a full revolution (gee I'm lousy with images...)
Scott Dorsey
May 23, 2013, 10:00:31 PM5/23/13
to
Dave O'Heare <dave.oheareATgmail.com> wrote:
>What I'm looking for is a way to mic the drum circle to get the
>sound into the PA. Traditional method is a wireless SM58 on a
>long boom, pointing straight up, fairly near the drumhead. This
>picks up the vocalists okay, and the drums okay, but it could
>be better; clearer vocals, more snap in the drum sound. It gets
>in the way a little bit, it requires a boom op with a clue, and
>frankly I like these folks, I want stuff to be as good as
>possible.
If this is working for you.... why not try the same technique with
>What I'm looking for is a way to mic the drum circle to get the
>sound into the PA. Traditional method is a wireless SM58 on a
>long boom, pointing straight up, fairly near the drumhead. This
>picks up the vocalists okay, and the drums okay, but it could
>be better; clearer vocals, more snap in the drum sound. It gets
>in the way a little bit, it requires a boom op with a clue, and
>frankly I like these folks, I want stuff to be as good as
>possible.
a better microphone? Sennheiser 441 is a good choice, but what is
the tightest hypercardioid condenser mike you can come up with in
the kit? Try that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Ron C
May 23, 2013, 10:33:59 PM5/23/13
to
don't recall if it ever got beyond research. [I believe Jim West
was involved.] Don't know if anyone on the pro mic' world ever
went there. Rather a (very) special purpose kind of thing.
==
Later...
Ron Capik
--
Adrian Tuddenham
May 24, 2013, 5:45:38 AM5/24/13
to
should still have good pickup in the horizontal plane, which is at 90
degrees to its axis. If this gives excessive drum pickup, try pointing
it upwards instead of downwards (if reflections from the tent roof are a
problem, suspend a large piece of thick carpet a foot or two above it).
A hypercardioid should be avoided because it has a cone-shaped null, so
you could finish up nulling-out your singers. A radial cluster of
cardioids will not work very well either, because sounds from the
horizontal plane may cancel whereas those from the vertical directions
will add - the opposite of what you want.
--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Chip Borton
May 24, 2013, 11:04:49 AM5/24/13
to
every year and have for at the least ten years or more now.
It sounds like a very similar situation to the one you describe.
The Gathering is very fast moving and many groups so it is impossible
to really record them well. The live sound guys for that literally
run from group to group with booms. They have two boom op's per drum.
In the studio I have set up a blumlein pair over the center of the
drum and spot mics for the stronger leads. I did garner a Grammy
nomination for an album I recorded this way.
Of course it was "Black Eagle" so all you have to do is not mess it
up and it will be good.
Tobiah
May 24, 2013, 11:07:48 AM5/24/13
to
> I have a pic posted at <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=
> 10151607204542436&set=a.10151607204492436.1073741825.562857435>
> That gives a pretty good idea of what's going on.
I can't get any content from the link.
> 10151607204542436&set=a.10151607204492436.1073741825.562857435>
> That gives a pretty good idea of what's going on.
Tobiah
Chip Borton
May 24, 2013, 11:17:49 AM5/24/13
to
On 5/24/2013 9:04 AM, Chip Borton wrote:
>>
> We have done a live radio broadcast of "Gathering of Nations" Pow Wow
> every year and have for at the least ten years or more now.
>
> It sounds like a very similar situation to the one you describe.
> The Gathering is very fast moving and many groups so it is impossible
> to really record them well. The live sound guys for that literally
> run from group to group with booms. They have two boom op's per drum.
>
> In the studio I have set up a blumlein pair over the center of the
> drum and spot mics for the stronger leads. I did garner a Grammy
> nomination for an album I recorded this way.
> Of course it was "Black Eagle" so all you have to do is not mess it
> up and it will be good.
>
I forgot to mention, In native music it is all about the drum,
>>
> We have done a live radio broadcast of "Gathering of Nations" Pow Wow
> every year and have for at the least ten years or more now.
>
> It sounds like a very similar situation to the one you describe.
> The Gathering is very fast moving and many groups so it is impossible
> to really record them well. The live sound guys for that literally
> run from group to group with booms. They have two boom op's per drum.
>
> In the studio I have set up a blumlein pair over the center of the
> drum and spot mics for the stronger leads. I did garner a Grammy
> nomination for an album I recorded this way.
> Of course it was "Black Eagle" so all you have to do is not mess it
> up and it will be good.
>
the singers are not supposed to be the "featured" over the drum.
polymod
May 24, 2013, 11:38:38 AM5/24/13
to
"Tobiah" <to...@tobiah.org> wrote in message
news:AmLnt.20079$cs....@newsfe03.iad...
Poly
Tobiah
May 24, 2013, 2:10:55 PM5/24/13
to
tighter to fit 12 people around a drum who were playing
it with their hands.
Scott Dorsey
May 24, 2013, 8:18:33 PM5/24/13
to
Adrian Tuddenham <adr...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> A hypercardioid should be avoided because it has a cone-shaped null, so
>you could finish up nulling-out your singers.
If he continues using a boom op to repoint the mike to each new singer,
> A hypercardioid should be avoided because it has a cone-shaped null, so
>you could finish up nulling-out your singers.
that should not be an issue.
junki...@googlemail.com
May 30, 2013, 12:55:59 PM5/30/13
to
How about a condenser over the top pointing down at the drum, maybe 3-4 feet above it, with the low end rolled off at some reasonable point - say 120hz (fairly arbitrary figure there, but you get the idea...). That'll catch your singers and the mids/highs of the drum without too much low end.
Then have a dynamic mic like a D112 or similar underneath the drum pointing upwards, not too close to the skin, polarity flipped, and maybe with some of the high end rolled off. That'll catch the beef and body of the drum without so much of the singers in it.
That will give you control over the two elements and might help you balance them out and EQ them better. You can send more of the underside mic to the PA to help the dancers, or crank up the singers without it getting too boomy.
Then have a dynamic mic like a D112 or similar underneath the drum pointing upwards, not too close to the skin, polarity flipped, and maybe with some of the high end rolled off. That'll catch the beef and body of the drum without so much of the singers in it.
That will give you control over the two elements and might help you balance them out and EQ them better. You can send more of the underside mic to the PA to help the dancers, or crank up the singers without it getting too boomy.
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