Pop stopping
tanguero
unlike an Audio Technica U857 as the active element. It's going to be
used for vocals but, I guess, because of the small diaphragm, it's
unusually sensitive to popping when used at close distances from the
singer. I've tried various foam windscreens which shield wind noise and
soft pops, but don't work well for the large ones. I've even tried a
sintered-bronze shield from a busted AKG dynamic mic, with limited
results. I need to keep things small and unobtrusive, so can't use a
full-sized popper-stopper. Does anyone have experience or suggestions
as to what might work??
Thanx,
David Eaman
Rv!
One thing I've seen when building microphones (mainly electrets)
is that the pop shield appears to work MUCH better if I can get it
a little way from the element and allow free air movement behind
the popper. This is difficult inside a microphone case. In actual use
I've ended up using little internal pop shielding and accepting I
have to use a pop shield externally.
I guess I have not found a great solution, especially for hand held
use, so I am interested in what anyone else has to say too.
Also suggest you look at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/micbuilders/
as these guys are forever building mics (including elements!) and probably
have many posible answers for you.
Robertv!
Rick Hollett
"hear" themselves, due to the deafening volume onstage.
"Rv!" <no.i...@invalid.ok> wrote in message
news:lzP1h.44902$r61....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Laurence Payne
It may not have to be full-size, but it needs to be of sufficient size
and set a few inches in front of the mic.
If this is really visually unacceptable, pick a different mic and/or
angle it differently.
tanguero
and put it in front of the mic (about 2 inches). There was some blast
attenuation, but it seems that the wave gets around the disc and still
pops the diaphragm. I'd go to a small dynamic if I could find one. It
seems that the world has settled on dynamic cartridges no smaller than
SM-57/58 sized. Years ago it was possible to get smaller ones but with
the rise of electrets, small dynamics have all but disappeared. I also
tried Google'ing for a technical paper on pop reduction, but no luck.
May have to try an AES search.
David Eaman
=====================================================
Laurence Payne
>> and set a few inches in front of the mic.
>I jury-rigged a small disc of screen (about the diameter of a quarter)
>and put it in front of the mic (about 2 inches). There was some blast
>attenuation, but it seems that the wave gets around the disc and still
>pops the diaphragm.
So I guess that screen wasn't of sufficient size.
Scott Dorsey
1. Use a different mike.
2. Use a different vocalist.
3. Get the vocalist to pull the mike back or sing to the side of it.
You can add a blast shield to a mike, which will change the frequency
response, so the capsule needs to be changed to compensate for that.
It'a all part of a system.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Noel Bachelor
wrote:
Yes I've had a similar experience with an attempt at a pop screen about
that size. An associate tried to make one that was just a little larger
than the head of a 421, with a bracket to hang it forward from the mic
body. Unfortunately the results we got were exactly the same as David
found.
Another one about twice the size was almost useful, though some of
severest pops would still get past it, and you needed to be very careful
in your mouth position. At around 120mm they became pretty effective. We
concluded there was a good reason that pop screens are usually about 150mm
diameter.
Noel Bachelor noelbachelorAT(From:_domain)
Language Recordings Inc (Darwin Australia)
Don Pearce
If you want a good, cheap pop screen get a frying pan splatter guard.
They are made from a fine wire mesh, have a virtually flat frequency
response and stop the blast as well as any expensive pop screen.
d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
david correia
see.m...@bigpond.com (Noel Bachelor) wrote:
Some people thump the mic a lot more than others. For those singers, I
just put up a second pop screen right next to the first one. As I like
vocals done close to the mic, I probably have to do this about 15% of
the time.
And everyone, don't forget the great cheap pop filter - a bent coat
hanger and nylons. Makes your studio look vintage to boot ;>
David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com
Ian Bell
the U47s on Beatles sessions?
Ian
tanguero
bigger than I was looking for.... I think I'll try an rework the mic to
hold an SM57 capsule. Less problem all around.
David
=====================================
Laurence Payne
>Thanx for all of the ideas, although a frying pan screen is a little
>bigger than I was looking for.... I think I'll try an rework the mic to
>hold an SM57 capsule. Less problem all around.
Do you feel that will be immune to pop?
Ty Ford
(in article <lKv4h.61067$H7.20762@edtnps82>):
> Thanx for all of the ideas, although a frying pan screen is a little
> bigger than I was looking for.... I think I'll try an rework the mic to
> hold an SM57 capsule. Less problem all around.
>
> David
> =====================================
>
>
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> In article <nOO1h.35732$H7.21865@edtnps82>, tanguero <d_e...@yahoo.ca>
>> wrote:
>>> I'm building a project mic that uses a small cardioid condenser mic not
>>> unlike an Audio Technica U857 as the active element. It's going to be
>>> used for vocals but, I guess, because of the small diaphragm, it's
>>> unusually sensitive to popping when used at close distances from the
>>> singer. I've tried various foam windscreens which shield wind noise and
>>> soft pops, but don't work well for the large ones. I've even tried a
>>> sintered-bronze shield from a busted AKG dynamic mic, with limited
>>> results. I need to keep things small and unobtrusive, so can't use a
>>> full-sized popper-stopper. Does anyone have experience or suggestions
>>> as to what might work??
reposition the mic to the side of the singer.
have the singer train to not pop. (some theater singers were trained to push
everything including pops out of their faces. that can be a problem if you
put the mic in front of them, unless they retrain.)
Regards,
Ty Ford
-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Adrian Tuddenham
As others have said, you need some air space between the screen and the
capsule. Two screens with a space between them will be more effective
than two layers of material in one screen. A small screen should
completely enclose the mic.
An omnidirectional pressure capsule is much less susceptible to blast
than one with a directional pressure-gradient component to its response.
Rigidity is important, the fine material of the screen needs to be
bonded to a firm base (wire mesh), otherwise it will bend with the blast
and set up another lot of air movement on the downstream side. I get
good results from garden wire mesh coated with impact adhesive with the
seat of a pair of nylon tights bonded to it. (Using a coat hanger only
supports the periphery of the material and isn't nearly as effective).
If the microphone capsule is suspended, the screen needs to enclose it
and move with it, otherwise you will be moving the capsule relative to
the air - which is just as bad as moving the air past the capsule.
None of the best solutions are small and unobtrusive - sorry.
--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
david correia
Ty Ford <tyre...@comcast.net> wrote:
> have the singer train to not pop. (some theater singers were trained to push
> everything including pops out of their faces. that can be a problem if you
> put the mic in front of them, unless they retrain.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
C'mon Ty, you gots to be kidding !
Most of us typically ain't dealing with classically trained singers.
Their performance, beyond hitting the notes, is about emotion. It's also
about them feeling comfortable and unencumbered enough to let it rip.
They are pretty much buttassnaked in front of the mic, even fully
clothed.
You don't think they already have waaaaay too much on their minds while
trying to perform the best damn vocal they can on their
very-important-to-them CD that everyone they know will be listening to?
I never tell clients to stop popping. Pops is my problem to take care
of. Either with a pop filter or filters, Protools or repositioning their
mouth.
(I'd like to see you make that suggestion to someone - please, if you
ever do it, secretly videotape it for me and I will somehow return the
favor, promise ;> )
Unless they are doing something bizarre, just let them sing! Anyone with
a modicum of daw skills can make a pop disappear faster than a popsicle
in a microwave. One of the big skills of an engineer is to know when to
disappear too.
David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com
Ty Ford
(in article <noemail-8F2FBA...@comcast.dca.giganews.com>):
Not kidding. We obviously work differently and have different clients. When I
get someone who pops through three screens. I tell them how not to do that
and they usually don't do it any more.
But I'm confused David. You say, "Either with a pop filter or filters,
Protools or repositioning their mouth." That's pretty much what I do. Then
you go on to rail at me for pretty much the same thing? I don't get it.
Helping them also makes their live stuff sound a lot better because they
aren't popping the crap out of the live mic. They usually cop to the fact
that they pop a lot and would really like to know how not to do that. When I
explain how not to do it, they are really grateful and thank me for the tip.
One of the big skills of an engineer is showing others that the "magic behind
the curtain" isn't all that magic.
david correia
Ty Ford <tyre...@comcast.net> wrote:
For my work, when someone is in front of the mic performing, I will not
tell them anything except where to stand and where the volume control is
on their Little Red Cue Box.
If they are popping like crazy thru 2 pop filters, I'll move either the
mic or their mouths a little bit. And I do like the vocalist's mouth
about 5 or 6" from the mic.
> But I'm confused David. You say, "Either with a pop filter or filters,
> Protools or repositioning their mouth." That's pretty much what I do. Then
> you go on to rail at me for pretty much the same thing? I don't get it.
I guess it depends on when you are giving them that lesson on how not to
pop. I may have wrong to do this, but from reading your post, I was
assuming that you were giving them the how-not-to-pop lesson on the spot
to eliminate your popping problem. My apologies if that is not the case.
Again, the point of my reply was about not fucking someone up at the
absolute wrong time. To me, it would be kinda like asking the person in
the circus who is spinning all the plates they can on those long poles
to also shuffle a deck of cards at the same time.
While someone is performing a very-important-to-them vocal track,
experience has taught me that asking someone to do something they've
never done in their life will likely result in them taking their eyes
off the real target: nailing a great vocal track. And the likely bottom
line for my intrusion: a lesser vocal track with no pops for me to fix.
And maybe a confused client.
This was my point. Because to me, it is a very important one.
A larger version of this same sorta thing happens with inexperienced
studio drummers laying down basic tracks. Telling most drummers to hit
the hat or their cymbals softer will either a) work only for a couple
minutes, or b) get suckier feel drum tracks. And this will definitely
create a more confused and probably unhappy client.
In this case I will as gently as I can point out what's going on, and
carefully make a little suggestion about it, but then not bring it up
again, unless I notice the energy in their take has changed.
Ahh, the psychology of engineering. A great subject.
> One of the big skills of an engineer is showing others that the "magic behind
> the curtain" isn't all that magic.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
But then how will we get to charge the big bucks? ;>
A few weeks ago Roy W. Rising had a great line here: "Working with sound
really is very easy. It took me a few decades of struggles to recognize
how easy it is."
David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com
Ty Ford
(in article <noemail-C6474A...@comcast.dca.giganews.com>):
> from reading your post, I was assuming that
> you were giving them the how-not-to-pop lesson on the spot to eliminate your
> popping problem. My apologies if that is not the case.
No Prob. At the bottom of your post you mention psychology; exactly! I have
to make the call as to whether or not they can take that info from me. That's
after I have already done everything I can with the setup to NOT pop.
> While someone is performing a very-important-to-them vocal track, experience
> has taught me that asking someone to do something they've never done in their
> life will likely result in them taking their eyes off the real target:
> nailing a great vocal track. And the likely bottom line for my intrusion: a
> lesser vocal track with no pops for me to fix. And maybe a confused client.
>
> This was my point. Because to me, it is a very important one.
Me too. Most of my clients have enough studio savvy not to pop, but
occasionally let one fly. We usually go back and punch it in. A lot depends
on the number of plosives the pop.
If they are relatively inexperienced, I try to work with them. I also teach
voiceover for a living, so I can usually get inside their head without making
a mess.
> A larger version of this same sorta thing happens with inexperienced studio
> drummers laying down basic tracks. Telling most drummers to hit the hat or
> their cymbals softer will either a) work only for a couple minutes, or b) get
> suckier feel drum tracks. And this will definitely create a more confused and
> probably unhappy client.
right. And what do you do when you hear timing problems (someone early,
someone late) while tracking? I just went through this with one client on a
tune. I heard they were a bit loose but didn't want to spoil the vibe. We
played everything back and everyone (bass, drums, guitar) said, OK. Three
weeks later a musician friend hears the mix and says it's not tight enough.
Fixing it took several hours. Who is to blame? Me for not being a time Nazi
or them?
(I'm from the government. I'm here to help.)
hank alrich
> A few weeks ago Roy W. Rising had a great line here: "Working with sound
> really is very easy. It took me a few decades of struggles to recognize
> how easy it is."
That's beautiful!
--
ha
david correia
Ty Ford <tyre...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > A larger version of this same sorta thing happens with inexperienced studio
> > drummers laying down basic tracks. Telling most drummers to hit the hat or
> > their cymbals softer will either a) work only for a couple minutes, or b)
> > get
>
> > suckier feel drum tracks. And this will definitely create a more confused
> > and
>
> > probably unhappy client.
>
> right. And what do you do when you hear timing problems (someone early,
> someone late) while tracking? I just went through this with one client on a
> tune. I heard they were a bit loose but didn't want to spoil the vibe. We
> played everything back and everyone (bass, drums, guitar) said, OK. Three
> weeks later a musician friend hears the mix and says it's not tight enough.
> Fixing it took several hours. Who is to blame? Me for not being a time Nazi
> or them?
>
> (I'm from the government. I'm here to help.)
Who's paying for the work? The musician friend or the players?
If the band likes it and it's not bugging me, I'll keep my mouth shut.
It it sounds stupid, I'll open my mouth. If someone else doesn't like
it, I'll take note of it, but I learned long ago when it comes to the
engineering gig to be honest with myself and trust my own instincts. You
know what they say about opinions ...
On the other hand, if the producer or some benefactor doesn't like it,
and I tell him/her/them that it's not bugging me, and they say to change
it, it gets changed. Simple. And I have a clear conscience.
So what did you think about those tracks, Ty? Did they need touching up?
Or not?
To take this a little further, on the other side of the time coin, one
of my pet peeves with some talented rock kids today is always slaving
everything to a click. And correcting it with Beat Detective. And making
sure every single overdubbed note is totally perfect.
What about inspiration and emotion? I think Fletcher signs his posts
with something about how emotion doesn't fit on a grid.
I was lucky in my early days of engineering to work with two very
different, and at the time very popular Rhode Island bands. One of them
was all about feel, the other about outstanding musicianship. It taught
me a lot, spending those many studio hours with each band. Namely, each
approach is one side of the same coin.
David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com
Ty Ford
(in article <noemail-EE4C1D...@comcast.dca.giganews.com>):
> Who's paying for the work? The musician friend or the players?
the artist is but the artist was obviously swayed by the friend.
> If the band likes it and it's not bugging me, I'll keep my mouth shut. It it
> sounds stupid, I'll open my mouth. If someone else doesn't like it, I'll take
> note of it, but I learned long ago when it comes to the engineering gig to be
> honest with myself and trust my own instincts. You know what they say about
> opinions ...
as with noses, everyone has one.
> On the other hand, if the producer or some benefactor doesn't like it, and I
> tell him/her/them that it's not bugging me, and they say to change it, it
> gets changed. Simple. And I have a clear conscience.
>
> So what did you think about those tracks, Ty? Did they need touching up? Or
> not?
Not as tight as they could be, but it was the first time I had worked with
the entire group and I was uncertain as to whether they were capable of
getting it better in a reasonable amount of time. (As it turns out, I'm
usually the one pushing the session so we don't waste time. That may take
some out of my pocket, but my clients seem to appreciate that approach.)
> To take this a little further, on the other side of the time coin, one of my
> pet peeves with some talented rock kids today is always slaving everything to
> a click. And correcting it with Beat Detective. And making sure every single
> overdubbed note is totally perfect.
>
> What about inspiration and emotion? I think Fletcher signs his posts with
> something about how emotion doesn't fit on a grid.
Yes, there's that.
> I was lucky in my early days of engineering to work with two very different,
> and at the time very popular Rhode Island bands. One of them was all about
> feel, the other about outstanding musicianship. It taught me a lot, spending
> those many studio hours with each band. Namely, each approach is one side of
> the same coin.
I live to learn something useful every day.