My band is going to purchase a 24 channel board for the PA.

Is the Mackie SR24 good for this?  ANy other suggestions?

Thanks,
M

My band has been using a Mackie SR24 for about 8 months. Best live board I
have ever used. Very flexible, very rugged, great "sound", very resonable
price for the features included. In short, buy it - great board.

: >My band is going to purchase a 24 channel board for the PA.

: >Is the Mackie SR24 good for this?  ANy other suggestions?

: Mackie is the best.

Thanks.  That's what I thought!  What's a good price?

M

In <4rb6hu$...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> mitc...@ix.netcom.com

The Mackie is a great board for the money.  However, they are lacking
in the areas of sonic quality and reliabile construction tehniques.
The Mackie uses surface mount technology in the manufacture of the
input modules.  The input modules are manufactured in groups of eight.
One channel goes out and you've got to replace eight.  Surface mount is
anything but reliable in a console that is to  be used in a "portable"
application.  

I suggest you consider the Ramsa 4424.  Much better sound quality and
an infinitely better grounding scheme.  They use a copper rod that runs
the entire length of the chassis and everything is gounded to it.
That's the same thing they do in their new $70,000 touring console.

As far as construction goes, the Ramsa uses individual circuit boards
for each channel.  Should  a channel go out, you can replace them one
at a time.  You're less likely to be left high and dry with the Ramsa.

Sonically, the Ramsa has about 8dB more headroom and overall a much
sweeter sound.  Better EQ.  A much better sounding mic pre.

True, the Ramsa is more money (about $2000 at Guitar Center), but like
everything in life, you get what you pay for.

(snip)
(snip)

I have to disagree with you on this point. I have worked in the
electronics manufacturing industry for 16 years, and it is a fact that
surface mount manufacturing is far, far more reliable than thru-hole
soldering. This is due partly to reduced component size which reduces
component shock and vibration forces, and partly to tight control of
the automated nature of the manufacturing process.

I have not had experience with the Ramsa board you mention, so I
cannot comment on the Ramsa vs. Mackie discussion. However, I have
used some very large live sound Ramsa boards, and they are definitely
high-quality gear.

Dave Peck
da...@alr.com

In <4rbsvs$...@news1.ni.net> da...@alr.com (David Peck) writes:

I, too, have worked for many years on the manufacturing side of the
fence.  In my experience surface mount doesn't hold up.  Do you
remember the very first Alesis mixer?  Truly a worthless piece.

Speaking strictly in terms of sonic quality, headroom and reliability,
the Ramsa eats up the Mackie.  I've used one for the past five years
without incident.  It's been bounced all over the place and I only
recently sent it in for repair because a fader went out.  

One point I didn't make in the earlier post is the fact that the Ramsa
has 8dB more headroom  than the Mackie.  The Ramsa will even give
sensational results when used for digital recording.  The 4424 has 27
(not a typo) aux sends.  Each of the four  main aux sends is switchable
pre/post fader and pre/post eq via internal jumpers in addiion to the
usual front panel switches.

Ramsa recently introduced two new versions; the 4424S and 4520.

The 4424S is essentially the same with the addition of four stereo line
level input modules, each with dual  XLR and RCA inputs.

The 4520 also has the four stereo line level input modules and an eight
matrix out.  Far and away more flexible than the Mackie.

Basically, you can't listen to Mackie's marketing department when
choosing a console.  Just because they tell us their designs are good
doesn't necessarily mean that they are. That's  not to say that the
Ramsa is perfect either.  In my opinion the Ramsa addresses reality in
a more professional way.  Of course reality also dictates that not
everyone can afford a professional piece of gear.  For the semi-pro or
amateur, there are manufacturers such as Mackie to provide them with
equipment at a lower price.  Just as there are autos for every price
point.  A Yugo will get you from A to B the same as a Mercedes.  

Since you are experienced in manufacturing you know what happens when a
piece of gear is designed from a price perspective.  If you want to
offer features, you have to find a cheaper way to build, or use cheaper
parts, or both.  In the case of the Mackie, they chose both.  Look
inside one and you'll see what I mean.

I feel anyone in the market for a 24-channel board is selling
themselves short if they don't even give the Ramsa some consideration.
The Ramsa is often (and easily) overlooked.  Give it a shot.

TELL ME ABOUT IT!  I've got one sitting here right now....utter
garbage!

Thanks for the info!  We definitely need something roadworthy!
However, would you still recommend the Mackie for my home studio
setup?

Thanks,
Mitch

I would say $1100 to $1200.

The Alesis mixer was a bad design, period. The problems were not a result
of surface mounting. It should not be compared to the Mackie boards. That
is like saying you don't like Porches because of a bad experience with a
Yugo because they are both European cars.

In my experience, Mackie boards are very reliable and sturdy. I have seen
them dropped from tables, get soaked in beer, and generally abused with
nary a whimper.

I haven't had personal experience with the RAMSA board, but my
experiences with the SR24*4 are very positive. The board is very quiet. We
have experienced no headroom problems. My band gets a lot on compliments
about the "cleanness" of our sound. The EQ has worked we for us (5 male
voices and little EQ on the instruments).

Complaints about the Mackie, few.... I would like to have LEDS on the
channel assign buttons. I wish the subs were stereo (I know that is asking
a lot at the SR24's price point.) I wish I had purchased the 32 channel
unit. And the 32 channel unit needs a gooseneck lamp socket.

: Thanks.  That's what I thought!  What's a good price?

: M

In article <4rdt34$...@login.freenet.columbus.oh.us>,
jmcca...@freenet.columbus.oh.us  says...

Plus no mic/line switch!  How much more would it have cost to stick those in?  
Overall, though I don't think there's anything else out there comparable for
the $.  To answer the original question, $1100-$1200 seems to be the current
street price.

Don't know if you can still get Allen & Heath in America but I have been
using a GL3 for the past 3 years lots of touring very reliable and can
double as a monitor only board also its not expensive.Even better if you
can afford its bigger brother the  GL4. again not to expensive.

Patrick

Have to disagree with you... Surface mount technology has been proven to be
MUCH more reliable than tradition through-hole circuit boards.  The only
difference between a surface mount device and a traditional one (like an IC,
for example) is that it is soldered directly to pads on the TOP of the circuit
board, while traditional components have wire posts that go through the
circuit board and typically get soldered to a pad on the underside.  Soldering
is purely to create a good electrical connection, NOT a mechanical one, so
whether the component is soldered to the surface or to legs isn't that
important.  Surface mount parts are typically smaller, because they don't need
a large package to support the connecting posts.  Because of this, surface
mount parts are MORE reliable.

In the Mackie boards, most ICs are surface mount, soldered directly to the
board.  In more traditonal designs,  an IC socket is soldered to the board,
and the IC is just inserted into the socket. THIS TYPE of engineering has
proven to be MUCH more UNRELIABLE than surface mount technology.  Vibration
and thermal changes will eventually cause that soketed IC to pop out -- I
guarantee it.

Try dropping a monitor on a Mackie, then drop the same monitor on any other
board.  The Mackie will have some snapped-off knobs, but will still work.  The
other board....well, it MAY work, but a LOT of solder joints and pots will
have been very stressed, all because of that wonderful "each channel strip
gets it's own board, and we'll mount it ON EDGE, so that the pots' solder
joints take the brunt of any impact" design...all so we can say that it's easy
to fix a channel strip.  

Axe Music, Calgary   Mackie SR2404 $1999.00 (Canadian)

John Holmes
Revelstoke, B.C.,
Canada

In article <4rhf0c$...@daneel.dnet.co.uk>, "P.D." <dal-sal@gr-
dolph.dnet.co.uk> writes

GL3/GL4 are fine desks for the money. The dual monitor/FOH role gets us
out of trouble all the time. We also have Soundcraft Spirit Live 4 Mk
II's out on hire which are ok... a quieter desk but not as flexible as
the GL3. I like signal presence LEDS and the Live 4 does not have 'em.

The Soundcraft K3 is a nice mid price desk (GL3 and Live 4 above are
budjet desks). Again sounds much better than a GL4 (buy the theatre
modules on the K3 .. nice EQ) but the GL4 gets the flexibility prize
every time.

Watch out for suspect insert points on GL3's. They go intermittant and
you lose channels. A quick jack into the insert and out again clears
this... you have been warned ! Nothing a new set of insert sockets after
a few years use doesn't fix.

Have a look at the GL3000 which is an 8 bus "GL3"ish affair. Also check
out the equaly new Soundcraft Spirit 8, an 8 bus "Live 4"ish affair.

Happy hunting...

Mark  
--
Mark Payne      The Sound Foundation.
                Sound and Lighting Production.
                Equipment Hire, Sales and Touring.

email           m...@thesound.demon.co.uk
tel/fax         01734 410580
mobile          0973 223819
mail            105 Severn Way, Tilehurst, Reading, Berks, England, RG30 4HW

In <4rjori$...@news2.inlink.com> chest...@inlink.com (JK Michael)
writes:

A matter of  opinion

Concerning the Mackie SR24-4, Grog wrote:

Or, $1119 (American) at Sweetwater...    :)

Mark :)
[helo...@juno.com]

I've benn useing and abusing a Mackie SR24/4 weekly in live R&R clubs
since they first hit the market.  It has survived all the usual
turmoils without a glitch.  For the money it cannot be beat.  If
PM4000's listed for $1500-1600, we would all have PM4000's.

Mark

"Mark A. Helotie" <helo...@juno.com> wrote:

YOU'RE KIDDING!!!!  And I thought $1299 was a great price here in
Cinci!

---M

: In <4rjori$...@news2.inlink.com> chest...@inlink.com (JK Michael)
: >
: >In article <4rbh2r$...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
: >>The Mackie is a great board for the money.  However, they are lacking
: >>in the areas of sonic quality and reliabile construction tehniques.
: >>The Mackie uses surface mount technology in the manufacture of the
: >>input modules.  The input modules are manufactured in groups of
: eight.
: >>One channel goes out and you've got to replace eight.  Surface mount
: is
: >>anything but reliable in a console that is to  be used in a
: "portable"
: >>application.  
: >>
: >
: >Have to disagree with you... Surface mount technology has been proven
: to be
: >MUCH more reliable than tradition through-hole circuit boards.  The
: only
: >difference between a surface mount device and a traditional one (like
: an IC,
: >for example) is that it is soldered directly to pads on the TOP of the
: circuit
: >board, while traditional components have wire posts that go through
: the
: >circuit board and typically get soldered to a pad on the underside.
: Soldering
: >is purely to create a good electrical connection, NOT a mechanical
: one, so
: >whether the component is soldered to the surface or to legs isn't that

: >important.  Surface mount parts are typically smaller, because they
: don't need
: >a large package to support the connecting posts.  Because of this,
: surface
: >mount parts are MORE reliable.
: >
: >In the Mackie boards, most ICs are surface mount, soldered directly to
: the
: >board.  In more traditonal designs,  an IC socket is soldered to the
: board,
: >and the IC is just inserted into the socket. THIS TYPE of engineering
: has
: >proven to be MUCH more UNRELIABLE than surface mount technology.
: Vibration
: >and thermal changes will eventually cause that soketed IC to pop out
: -- I
: >guarantee it.
: >
: >Try dropping a monitor on a Mackie, then drop the same monitor on any
: other
: >board.  The Mackie will have some snapped-off knobs, but will still
: work.  The
: >other board....well, it MAY work, but a LOT of solder joints and pots
: will
: >have been very stressed, all because of that wonderful "each channel
: strip
: >gets it's own board, and we'll mount it ON EDGE, so that the pots'
: solder
: >joints take the brunt of any impact" design...all so we can say that
: it's easy
: >to fix a channel strip.  

: A matter of  opinion

Just my $.02:

I'm using a MACKIE 8 bus for live sound and I like the flexibility and the
sound. I cannot speak to the road worthiness as I use it in a static setup,
but I do use it for live sound with mutilple monitor mixes (currently 3)
(I like not having to have/operate a monitor mixer) and a recording mix
out (it's used along with room mic fed into a recording mixer).

It works very well. The only thing I could complain about is that the solo
bus for individual channels is always stereo and I use the sub-mixes as
mono so I get all left or all right when I punch up an individual channel.

John S.