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Reels RUINED by Ziplock Storage

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gggo...@aol.com

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Apr 26, 2007, 3:44:47 PM4/26/07
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Hi everyone...I'm a long time reel-to-reel, minidisc (Type R/S) and
cassette fanatic, with thousands of tapes and almost 300 reel to reel,
cassette, and minidisc decks.

A couple years ago I put a box of reels in storage. My tapes are taken
care of METICULOUSLY; the second I remove the cellophane, I have
always put the reels in their inner plastic bags, and the overall box
in a 4mil Ziplock bag. I've been doing this for years. The tapes were
always fine; I mainly did it to protect the boxes, to prevent shelf
wear.

The reels I put in storage were older (10-15 years, some 20+ years)
that never had a sign of a problem when they were in their ziplock
bags at home for years on end.

The tapes, probably 100 or so, were from various brands...Maxell UD,
XL-I, Ampex 456, Quantegy 499, 3m 996, 3m 966, old prerecorded tapes,
Basf 900, Basf 911, Basf 468, TDK LX, TDK GX, Zonal, Scotch 250,
Scotch 226, etc. They were packed each in the same ziplock bag that
they had individually been in years prior (placed in the bags in a low
humidity household). All tapes were placed in a cardboard box which
was lined with loose styrofoam. The box was loosely taped shut.

Imagine my horror when I opened this box yesterday and found that more
than half the tapes are ruined. The WORST being the Basf tapes in the
white boxes. Some of these were NEW and unused prior to storage. The
white boxes are COVERED with a reddish brown mold-type growth. The
ziplock bags were SEALED. The inside of the boxes as well as the reels
themselves have growth on them. Even the 3m tapes in the plastic tape
care boxes have mold on the inside of the reels as well as on the tape
itself. Some tapes, like the TDK's, Ampex's, and Zonal's simply have
the previously white portions of the boxes turning a beige color, but
no mold growth. The Basf tapes MUST have something in the white box
covering material that reacted with (maybe) the ziplock bag. These
tapes were always handled with the utmost care and looked NEW. As I
said, the Basf boxes look like they were at the bottom of a lake.

The Maxell's fared the best. They don't have nearly as much mold or
growth on the boxes. The tape itself is fine.

Here's the strange part. The reels were NOT stored in the best of
environments. It was not climate controlled, nor free from humidity or
moisture. BUT...an entire wall (100's) of new old stock Maxell, Ampex,
and TDK reels all in their factory 10 per carton cardboard boxes, all
except maybe 6 reels in their original cellophane but by no means
SEALED, were FINE. And, get this, three outer boxes of these tapes SAT
IN HALF AN INCH OR SO OF WATER and remained humid/moist damp for
weeks. THESE TAPES AND BOXES ARE ABSOLUTELY FINE WITH NO SIGNS
WHATSOEVER OF WATER DAMAGE OF ANY KIND.

My guess is that since they were not "sealed" as a ziplock bag does,
they were allowed to breathe and thus NOT experience any mold growth,
even when sitting in WATER!

Any ideas??? Seems like SEALING tapes in ziplock bags is NOT the way
to go! SOMEHOW, humidity/moisture got into these tapes, and ruined
most of them. I thought that the ziplock bags would PROTECT them from
environmental factors. The ziplock bags did the EXACT OPPOSITE.

The tapes that I did NOTHING SPECIAL to protect which are in boxes
literally NEXT to this box of destroyed tapes are ABSOLUTELY FINE.

:(

Arny Krueger

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Apr 26, 2007, 4:28:35 PM4/26/07
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<gggo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177616686....@r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com

> Any ideas??? Seems like SEALING tapes in ziplock bags is
> NOT the way to go! SOMEHOW, humidity/moisture got into
> these tapes, and ruined most of them. I thought that the
> ziplock bags would PROTECT them from environmental
> factors. The ziplock bags did the EXACT OPPOSITE.

The following may seem irrelevant at first blush, but maybe not. We use
ziplock bags to store food, etc. for backwoods camping and canoeing for the
past 20-30 years. We've found through hard experience that it takes up to 3
layers of ziplock bags to keep things really dry and that's for no more
than 2 weeks. I'm not talking camping in the Amazon, I'm talking northern
Michigan and Ontario during the summer and fall.


Scott Dorsey

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Apr 26, 2007, 4:34:52 PM4/26/07
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<gggo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Imagine my horror when I opened this box yesterday and found that more
>than half the tapes are ruined. The WORST being the Basf tapes in the
>white boxes. Some of these were NEW and unused prior to storage. The
>white boxes are COVERED with a reddish brown mold-type growth. The
>ziplock bags were SEALED. The inside of the boxes as well as the reels
>themselves have growth on them. Even the 3m tapes in the plastic tape
>care boxes have mold on the inside of the reels as well as on the tape
>itself. Some tapes, like the TDK's, Ampex's, and Zonal's simply have
>the previously white portions of the boxes turning a beige color, but
>no mold growth. The Basf tapes MUST have something in the white box
>covering material that reacted with (maybe) the ziplock bag. These
>tapes were always handled with the utmost care and looked NEW. As I
>said, the Basf boxes look like they were at the bottom of a lake.

So towel the mold off with a terrycloth facecloth with a dilute solution
of dettol or Lysol. Mold won't hurt them much. They should play fine
unless they are also suffering from binder breakdown issues.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Chevdo

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Apr 27, 2007, 12:40:11 AM4/27/07
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In article <f0r2dc$570$1...@panix2.panix.com>, klu...@panix.com says...

Throwing them all in the trash would be much safer, weird mold is a major
health hazard. 'reddish brown' mold doesn't sound like the friendly green
stuff off bread or cheese.


Richard Crowley

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Apr 27, 2007, 2:02:36 AM4/27/07
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"Chevdo" wrote ...

> Throwing them all in the trash would be much safer, weird mold is a
> major
> health hazard. 'reddish brown' mold doesn't sound like the friendly
> green
> stuff off bread or cheese.\

OTOH, Mr. Dorsey appears to have actual experience with
this issue. Sometimes better to just lurk and learn something.

Eeyore

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Apr 27, 2007, 9:02:23 AM4/27/07
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gggo...@aol.com wrote:

> Any ideas??? Seems like SEALING tapes in ziplock bags is NOT the way
> to go! SOMEHOW, humidity/moisture got into these tapes, and ruined
> most of them. I thought that the ziplock bags would PROTECT them from
> environmental factors. The ziplock bags did the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Yes, it can let moisture in slowly but won't let it out very well.

Graham

Arny Krueger

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Apr 27, 2007, 11:44:00 AM4/27/07
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"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:4631F45F...@hotmail.com

The bags leak through small perferations due to the thinness of the bag
material, and also past the closures. There's probably some mechanical
explanation for why it is easier for moisture to get in, than out.


Don Pearce

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Apr 27, 2007, 11:52:42 AM4/27/07
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On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:44:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com>
wrote:

It isn't. But once the moisture is in there, it will attach itself to
all the solid bits and start its nasty work. The stuff still in
gaseous form gets out as easily as it got in. It is just all very
slow.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

videochas www.locoworks.com

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Apr 27, 2007, 1:57:02 PM4/27/07
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On Apr 27, 8:52 am, nos...@nospam.com (Don Pearce) wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:44:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger" <a...@hotpop.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> >messagenews:4631F45F...@hotmail.com

> >> gggoa...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >>> Any ideas??? Seems like SEALING tapes in ziplock bags is
> >>> NOT the way to go! SOMEHOW, humidity/moisture got into
> >>> these tapes, and ruined most of them. I thought that the
> >>> ziplock bags would PROTECT them from environmental
> >>> factors. The ziplock bags did the EXACT OPPOSITE.
>
> >> Yes, it can let moisture in slowly but won't let it out
> >> very well.
>
> >The bags leak through small perferations due to the thinness of the bag
> >material, and also past the closures. There's probably some mechanical
> >explanation for why it is easier for moisture to get in, than out.
>
> It isn't. But once the moisture is in there, it will attach itself to
> all the solid bits and start its nasty work. The stuff still in
> gaseous form gets out as easily as it got in. It is just all very
> slow.
>
> d
>
> --
> Pearce Consultinghttp://www.pearce.uk.com

Temperature change is the most probable culprit. If the air in the
bag when it was sealed was at, say, 50% humidity at 75 degrees F, and
then the temperature dropped for some reason, the humidity would rise
precipitiously...precipitating on your tapes and providing a mold-
encouraging microclimate, on the microcassettes in particular.

sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com

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Apr 27, 2007, 2:28:43 PM4/27/07
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It would never have occurred to me to put reel-to-reel tapes into
ziplock bags - it sounds like a recipe for disaster. Is that
practice actually recommended somewhere?

videochas www.locoworks.com <vide...@aol.com> wrote:

John L Rice

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Apr 27, 2007, 5:32:12 PM4/27/07
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<sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com> wrote in message
news:463240db$0$14138$742e...@news.sonic.net...

> It would never have occurred to me to put reel-to-reel tapes into
> ziplock bags - it sounds like a recipe for disaster. Is that
> practice actually recommended somewhere?

Could it be that the mold spores and moisture were just sealed into the bag
when the tape reel was first placed in it? I could see this happening unless
it was done in a completely sterile enviroment.

John L Rice


Scott Dorsey

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Apr 27, 2007, 9:18:45 PM4/27/07
to

Mold spores are everywhere. The world is full of them. They were in the
box when the tape was purchased, and more fell in when the box was opened.

The thing is, most of them don't grow into huge fuzzy balls of mold, because
they aren't under the right conditions. But if you take nearly anything
in the world that has not been completely sterilized and you put it in a
warm moist place, it will become covered with mold.

That's the way mold is, and if you live in a tropical climate you just
learn to deal with it. A little dettol on a towel and it'll be fine.

Chevdo

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Apr 27, 2007, 11:48:06 PM4/27/07
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In article <13334fs...@corp.supernews.com>, rcro...@xp7rt.net says...

BS. Dorsey frequently comments with no experience. He may have experience
cleaning mold of tapes, but 'reddish brown' mold? He didn't specify, so I
guess you're psychic, or at least, as dumb as someone who thinks he's psychic.
But hey, I'd certainly prefer it if Darwin-award nominees like you and most of
the members of RAP would off themselves trying to restore worthless tapes of
their teenage garage band years, so have at it, Richard!

Chevdo

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Apr 27, 2007, 11:52:19 PM4/27/07
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In article <f0u7dl$2bk$1...@panix2.panix.com>, klu...@panix.com says...

>
>The thing is, most of them don't grow into huge fuzzy balls of mold, because
>they aren't under the right conditions. But if you take nearly anything
>in the world that has not been completely sterilized and you put it in a
>warm moist place, it will become covered with mold.
>

Any mold that propogates in an anaerobic environment is going to be a nasty,
dangerous mold. But then according to Richard Crowley, we're better off
putting our lives in the hands of Scott Dorsey because he wiped mold off a tape
once. You see folks, this is why humanity's gene pool is devolving - people
like Richard would've killed themselves with their stupidity long ago if it
weren't for the armies of safety inspectors and regulatory bodies we employ to
keep morons from offing themselves.


Chevdo

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Apr 28, 2007, 12:24:35 AM4/28/07
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In article <WtzYh.5310$Dq6.4664@edtnps82>, ch...@dont.com says...

Incidentally, though, I doubt its 'mold' at all. 'reddish brown' sounds like
oxidized iron to me. They were probably 'ferro' composite tapes, which are
known for decomposing over time.

Laurence Payne

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Apr 28, 2007, 5:30:17 AM4/28/07
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On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 03:52:19 GMT, ch...@dont.com (Chevdo) wrote:

>Any mold that propogates in an anaerobic environment is going to be a nasty,
>dangerous mold.

Why?

Laurence Payne

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Apr 28, 2007, 5:32:30 AM4/28/07
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On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 04:24:35 GMT, ch...@dont.com (Chevdo) wrote:

>Incidentally, though, I doubt its 'mold' at all. 'reddish brown' sounds like
>oxidized iron to me.

Can't be. You said it was an anaerobic environment. You can't mix
"oxidized" and "anaerobic" in the same argument :-)

Mike Rivers

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Apr 28, 2007, 7:56:45 AM4/28/07
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On Apr 27, 11:52 pm, c...@dont.com (Chevdo) wrote:

> You see folks, this is why humanity's gene pool is devolving - people
> like Richard would've killed themselves with their stupidity long ago if it
> weren't for the armies of safety inspectors and regulatory bodies we employ to
> keep morons from offing themselves.

Please continue this discussion in soc.audio.pathology

gggo...@aol.com

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Apr 28, 2007, 4:19:58 PM4/28/07
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On Apr 27, 1:28�pm, sgor...@changethisparttohardbat.com wrote:
> It would never have occurred to me to put reel-to-reel tapes intoziplockbags - it sounds like a recipe for disaster.  Is that
> practice actually recommended somewhere?


It is a very common practice with reel to reel users. There are
several tape preservation blogs and websites which state it is what to
do...you can even check the Wendy Carlos site; he/she has had good
results with using ziplock bags and silica gel. BTW...several packets
of silica gel were in my box of tapes.

Scott Dorsey

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Apr 28, 2007, 4:28:00 PM4/28/07
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<gggo...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Apr 27, 1:28=EF=BF=BDpm, sgor...@changethisparttohardbat.com wrote:
>> It would never have occurred to me to put reel-to-reel tapes intoziplockb=
>ags - it sounds like a recipe for disaster. =A0Is that

>> practice actually recommended somewhere?
>
>It is a very common practice with reel to reel users. There are
>several tape preservation blogs and websites which state it is what to
>do...you can even check the Wendy Carlos site; he/she has had good
>results with using ziplock bags and silica gel. BTW...several packets
>of silica gel were in my box of tapes.

The silica gel part is important.

gggo...@aol.com

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Apr 28, 2007, 4:38:17 PM4/28/07
to

>
> Incidentally, though, I doubt its 'mold' at all.  'reddish brown' sounds like
> oxidized iron to me.  They were probably 'ferro' composite tapes, which are
> known for decomposing over time.- Hide quoted text -
>


The particular reddish brown growth was ONLY limited to the Basf 900
and 911 (around 1999 vintage) tape BOXES. None of the other tapes in
this entire lot show the red/brown growth. The white boxes of the
Basf tapes have something in them which reacted with something. I
don't know what or how. A Maxell XL-I (1987 vintage) had no growth of
any kind whatsoever...and it was NEXT to the Basf; the ziplock bags
were in full contact. It should be noted that Basf/Emtec later
changed from this white box to a gray colored box...just a
speculation, but maybe they knew there was something in the particular
white box covering material. I'll try to take a picture of it.


Some of the WORST tapes were a 3m 996 (2001 vintage) and a 3m 966
(2001 vintage) both in the "inert" black plastic tape boxes. I've
rewound each about 30 times while grasping the tape carefully with a
soft cotton terrycloth towel. Surprising that there is NO shedding
syndrome, and the mold is pretty much gone (tapes play with no audible
drop-outs) but I can still see evidence of the mold spores on the
sides of the tapes through the holes in the reels. I'm wondering if
they are just disfigured or if the mold is still there actively. I
also cleaned the reels extensively with 91% alcohol, which removed all
traces of mold. I also cleaned the plastic tape care boxes with the
same stuff. Looks like new, but everything still SMELLS musty...is
this a sign that the mold is still there???

Also, I need help with one very important problem. The two 3m tapes
so far have a terrible problem in that the tape is no longer flat;
even though they were stored properly and wound tight, the tape is
uneven over the heads; similar to an old acetate tape that was stored
loosely improperly 40 years ago. You can see the "wavering" nature of
the tape as it passes over the guides. The problem is, it won't pack
exactly smooth on the reel. Strange that the tape would deform so
much; it PLAYS fine as long as you add extra tension to the rear reel
on a non-dual capstan deck. But, I can't get it to pack totally
perfectly on the reel yet. If I baked it without it being packed on
the reel smoothly, it would deform it MORE I believe. Also, I don't
have sticky shed, so the purpose of baking it would be only to try to
"form" the tape back into its smooth state to eliminate the bent/
cupped/uneven nature. BUT, I don't know if this would even WORK, as
I've never heard of baking a tape to "smooth it out." I HAVE read
that baking a tape WILL change its shape for the worse if the tape
isn't wound perfectly. So, I was thinking that baking it when it is
perfectly smooth on the reel MIGHT actually REVERSE the deformation
and actually FLATTEN the tape out again (IF I can get it to pack
straight). Am I on the right track? Has ANYONE had experience with
this? Might it work?? Please let me know...

Thanks again!

gggo...@aol.com

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Apr 28, 2007, 4:46:01 PM4/28/07
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> The silica gel part is important.
> --scott

I would THINK the silica gel part is important, however...

There was plenty of silica gel in this box of tapes. Didn't help.
The tapes stored literally NEXT to this box, in factory cartons of 10
each, stacked on top of and next to one another with no ziplock bags,
no silica gel, and some of the tapes not even wrapped in original
cellophane sitting in the SAME exact environment (some of them
actually getting WET and sitting literally in moist/humid/damp
cardboard boxes for weeks) are 100% perfect and look absolutely brand
new.

Scott Dorsey

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Apr 28, 2007, 4:49:58 PM4/28/07
to
<gggo...@aol.com> wrote:
>Some of the WORST tapes were a 3m 996 (2001 vintage) and a 3m 966
>(2001 vintage) both in the "inert" black plastic tape boxes. I've
>rewound each about 30 times while grasping the tape carefully with a
>soft cotton terrycloth towel. Surprising that there is NO shedding
>syndrome, and the mold is pretty much gone (tapes play with no audible
>drop-outs) but I can still see evidence of the mold spores on the
>sides of the tapes through the holes in the reels. I'm wondering if
>they are just disfigured or if the mold is still there actively. I
>also cleaned the reels extensively with 91% alcohol, which removed all
>traces of mold. I also cleaned the plastic tape care boxes with the
>same stuff. Looks like new, but everything still SMELLS musty...is
>this a sign that the mold is still there???

There's still mold there. It will never go away. Just keep it dry
and the smell will go away and the mold won't spread.

>Also, I need help with one very important problem. The two 3m tapes
>so far have a terrible problem in that the tape is no longer flat;
>even though they were stored properly and wound tight, the tape is
>uneven over the heads; similar to an old acetate tape that was stored
>loosely improperly 40 years ago. You can see the "wavering" nature of
>the tape as it passes over the guides. The problem is, it won't pack
>exactly smooth on the reel. Strange that the tape would deform so
>much; it PLAYS fine as long as you add extra tension to the rear reel
>on a non-dual capstan deck. But, I can't get it to pack totally
>perfectly on the reel yet. If I baked it without it being packed on
>the reel smoothly, it would deform it MORE I believe. Also, I don't
>have sticky shed, so the purpose of baking it would be only to try to
>"form" the tape back into its smooth state to eliminate the bent/
>cupped/uneven nature. BUT, I don't know if this would even WORK, as
>I've never heard of baking a tape to "smooth it out." I HAVE read
>that baking a tape WILL change its shape for the worse if the tape
>isn't wound perfectly. So, I was thinking that baking it when it is
>perfectly smooth on the reel MIGHT actually REVERSE the deformation
>and actually FLATTEN the tape out again (IF I can get it to pack
>straight). Am I on the right track? Has ANYONE had experience with
>this? Might it work?? Please let me know...

What you have is tape that has absorbed a huge amount of moisture in
the backing, just like the acetate tapes. It's a lot harder to make
this happen with mylar than with acetate. Consequently, it might be
harder to make it give that moisture up too.

You can try baking them to get the moisture out, but if you just keep
them in a dry location, maybe with a little silica gel, they will
probably straighten themselves out. It could take a long time, though.
Months if not years.

Don't worry so much about the tape pack, though. If it plays well,
and the tones don't wobble on the scope, you're fine. Pack them loosely,
put them on the shelf, then try rewinding and repacking in another six
months or so.

gggo...@aol.com

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Apr 28, 2007, 5:05:29 PM4/28/07
to

> Don't worry so much about the tape pack, though.  If it plays well,
> and the tones don't wobble on the scope, you're fine.  Pack them loosely,
> put them on the shelf, then try rewinding and repacking in another six
> months or so.
> --scott

I was only worried about the pack for the baking purpose; I wouldn't
bake the tape if it weren't packed smoothly as this will iron the non-
smooth pack into the tape itself.

The problem is that they DON'T play fine unless I increase the rear
reel tension, and this is not really feasible (I did it just to see if
it helped). I was looking for a way to make them play properly and
normally again on any tape deck as an undamaged tape would. Could I
just set one out exposed in the hot sun for a day and see if this
helps if it is packed REASONABLY straight and tight?

BTW...this has been the absolute BEST test for binder/sticky shed
problems with later 3m 996/966 tape...this stuff is STABLE to the max
(the binder at least)! BTW...I'm literally in the swamps of south
Louisiana. 100+ degrees and 99% humidity for years. The tapes have
been in an outside non-climate controlled storage unit, and have been
through several hurricanes (don't ask why). Most notably Rita and
Katrina. However...gotta hand it to Maxell. That tape is absolutely
undamaged and perfect. Sitting unwrapped/unprotected and wet. No
binder issues, no mold, no packing issues, no uneven tape, no
NOTHING. I've always heard great reliability cudos regarding Basf/
Emtec, but they are by far the worst "survivors" of this. I'll post
info on other tapes as I open them and experience problems.

Scott Dorsey

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Apr 28, 2007, 9:47:04 PM4/28/07
to
<gggo...@aol.com> wrote:
>The problem is that they DON'T play fine unless I increase the rear
>reel tension, and this is not really feasible (I did it just to see if
>it helped). I was looking for a way to make them play properly and
>normally again on any tape deck as an undamaged tape would. Could I
>just set one out exposed in the hot sun for a day and see if this
>helps if it is packed REASONABLY straight and tight?

Sure. It won't hurt anything. It probably won't help much, but it
won't hurt. Maybe you'll get a miniscule increase in print-through,
but that's the least of your worries.

What kind of recorder do you have? I assume by "rear reel" you mean
the takeup reel? On some machines you may just be able to crank the
tension up with some alignment tweaking. And what happens when the
tape plays? Do you get edge tracks dropping out because the tape curls,
or do you get the image wavering right to left as the tape wanders up
and down?

gggo...@aol.com

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Apr 28, 2007, 11:34:45 PM4/28/07
to

> Sure.  It won't hurt anything.  It probably won't help much, but it
> won't hurt.  Maybe you'll get a miniscule increase in print-through,
> but that's the least of your worries.
>
> What kind of recorder do you have?  I assume by "rear reel" you mean
> the takeup reel?  On some machines you may just be able to crank the
> tension up with some alignment tweaking.  And what happens when the
> tape plays?  Do you get edge tracks dropping out because the tape curls,
> or do you get the image wavering right to left as the tape wanders up
> and down?
> --scott

Hi Scott...I have several decks, but most are also in storage. I've
tried a few however. I'm referring to the supply reel as the "rear"
reel. The dual capstan systems on Teac X-700 and X-2000 decks don't
hold the tape taut enough against the heads to alleviate the problem.
Also, one of my RT-909 decks doesn't fare much better. One of my more
simple decks, the Teac X-300, has a simple adjustment to increase rear
supply tension, and this combined with actually using one of the head
cover guidepins as an extra "tensioner" (I actually routed the tape
over the head cover mounting pin) holds the tape tight enough against
the heads, and amazingly the tape is so slippery smooth that it
doesn't drag. I don't want to go through so much to play a tape
however; that's why I want to figure a way to "flatten" the tape back
out. I'm wondering if the polyester is actually misformed or if it is
indeed moisture as you stated. The problem isn't a curling problem,
and not a wandering problem...the problem is that the tape is not flat
and is not making good contact with the heads unless excess tension is
put on it. If I could increase the take-up reel tension, I'd have a
good chance of winding the tape smoothly without ridges on a reel so
that I could bake it to find out if that would indeed flatten the tape
back out.

Thanks,
Jeff


Chevdo

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Apr 29, 2007, 3:27:36 AM4/29/07
to
If its a moisture problem this may not be a good idea, but you can straighten
tape out by ironing it like you would iron clothing, you have to have an iron
that can be set to a low temperature so it won't melt the tape, though.


In article <1177817684.9...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
gggo...@aol.com says...
>
>
>
>> Sure. =A0It won't hurt anything. =A0It probably won't help much, but it
>> won't hurt. =A0Maybe you'll get a miniscule increase in print-through,


>> but that's the least of your worries.
>>

>> What kind of recorder do you have? =A0I assume by "rear reel" you mean
>> the takeup reel? =A0On some machines you may just be able to crank the
>> tension up with some alignment tweaking. =A0And what happens when the
>> tape plays? =A0Do you get edge tracks dropping out because the tape curls,

audioae...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 29, 2007, 8:40:10 AM4/29/07
to
better advice can be found here...
the association for recorded sound collections...
< http://www.arsc-audio.org/ >
< http://www.arsc-audio.org/arsclist.html >

no bullshit by amatuers, they deal with these issues for a living.

Richard Crowley

unread,
Apr 29, 2007, 7:25:19 PM4/29/07
to
"Laurence Payne" wrote...

> (Chevdo) wrote:
>>Incidentally, though, I doubt its 'mold' at all. 'reddish brown'
>>sounds like
>>oxidized iron to me.
>
> Can't be. You said it was an anaerobic environment. You can't mix
> "oxidized" and "anaerobic" in the same argument :-)

He apperars to make it up as he types.
At least you can't fault his imagination.

sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com

unread,
Apr 30, 2007, 12:02:38 PM4/30/07
to
gggo...@aol.com wrote:
: BTW...several packets of silica gel were in my box of tapes.

Ah, I missed that part.

Arny Krueger

unread,
Apr 30, 2007, 1:20:43 PM4/30/07
to
<sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com> wrote in message
news:4636131e$0$14117$742e...@news.sonic.net

Thing is, not enough silica gel is just as bad as none.

I was thinking back about how electronic chassis were packed for the
military in the Vietnam era.

The chassis was packed in a loose-fitting bag inside a large cardboard box,
with a few inches of empty space all alround. Foam rubber spacers at the
corners. The bag had an outer layer of muslin cloth and an inner layer of
heavy, aluminum-coated mylar. There was a bag of silica gel inside - I'd
guess that a 1U 19" rack-sized chassis had a bag with a measuring cup or
two of silica gel in it.

This was designed to be very close to a 100% solution, and far in excess of
what one usually sees.


gggo...@aol.com

unread,
May 1, 2007, 4:46:11 PM5/1/07
to
Just a quick update on the tape situation...

For what it's worth, every ziplock bag had a 1" X 1/2" silica gel pack
in it. Didn't help.


As far as what tapes "survived" and which ones didn't and the effects
of this long term terrible condition storage had on them, I'll post
information as I inspect the tapes.

1) For starters, the Basf/Emtec tapes didn't make it. They simply
had too much growth. The white boxes of this vintage (mid-90's) seem
to act like a sponge; they STILL feel moist/damp. There's no oxide
shed, but the mold is unbelievable.

2) 3m 996 has no sticky shed problems whatsoever. Even after 10 or
so passes through a cleaning cloth with moderate pressure, there is
next to NO oxide binder, or backcoating shedding of ANY kind, not even
the "normal" amount you would expect. Out of dozens of reels, only
one has a bad spot to where the growth is being stubborn to remove.
However, I will be able to remove it without damage with NuFinish (I'm
going to post my reel-fix procedure later, and it involves NuFinish).
Not many had grown mold...but the plastic tape care storage box seems
to promote it. No 996 tapes have had the uneven/bent tape problem;
the ones that have had that are 3m 966...

3) 3m 966 has a tendency to grow mold similar to 996, but for some
reason the polyester backing and/or the oxide itself has caused these
tapes to be deformed as described in my other posts; these tapes are
just not flat anymore. Only tapes I've come across that have
exhibited this. Strange. Even other tapes that were stored
completely haphazardly with loose windings, uneven packs, no plastic
bags around the tapes inside cardboard boxes, etc...have not shown any
sign of the tape being deformed like these 966 tapes.

4) TDK GX is terrible. No sticky shed, but the white powder problem
is neverending. These tapes had a tiny bit of needle point size mold
spots sporadically on the smooth packing, but when I fast forwarded
them using the "hold a terry cloth around the tape" method, TONS of
white powder emerged. The tape is covered with little mold spot
etchings on both the oxide and backcoating surfaces, but these do NOT
cause drop-outs or flutter (amazingly). As long as you literally use
the cloth method to make the tape SMOOTH again with no build up of
contaminants, ANY tape should play OK...again, as long as you can
REMOVE whatever build-up you may have. That's the key. The problem
with the TDK GX is that even after passing through the cleaning cloth
about 30 times and the white powder actually disappeared (I thought it
would never end), the tapes STILL clog the heads/pathway with oxide.
The oxide is soft and powdery and is easily wiped away, but occurs
literally after about 2 minutes of play. Not usable. I may try the
NuFinish technique.

5) Ampex/Quantegy 499 has NO sticky shed, and mold growth is
sporadic. Some tapes had it, some didn't. Mold easily removed by dry
cloth passing. Tapes play as good as new. No "sticky" shed, but
tapes leave a large amount of oxide and backcoating residue on the
cloth...moreso than other tapes. They play and record fine, however.
Seem to have gotten "fatter" sounding. Very thick and warm; better
than I remember this tape sounding.

6) Maxell UD/XLI is simply unbelievable. Out of nearly 50 tapes,
only ONE had any type of mold growth on the tape itself whatsoever.
Only 3 boxes showed ANY sign of growth, and that easily wiped away.
The ONE tape that had growth on it easily wiped away with a cloth, and
plays completely perfectly. This is one of the OLDEST Maxell's in
this particular lot, probably 1985 vintage. It also was abused early
on, and has been all over the country. Still, plays and performs as
new. The foil-type box covering on two of the Maxell XLI's have
strange etching on the edges; not sure from what. Absolutely no shed
issues. I'm more enamored with Maxell than any other tape with this
experience. Just amazing stuff.

7) Ampex/Quantegy 631/632/641/642 are completely problem free, boxes/
tapes/reels appear and perform as new. No mold growth, NOTHING.
Appears as new off the shelf. Amazing reliability.

8) Ampex/Quantegy 406/456/457...I'm not sure about these yet. They
all have extensive growth to the reels and tape itself, and the boxes
have strange yellow spots on the coverings; both the older "Tyvec" box
coatings and the later gray paper box coatings have these yellow
spots. It's not TERRIBLE, but I'm expecting sticky shed, so I'm not
tackling these tapes yet.

9) Scotch 111/150 shows little growth to boxes and reels, but it
easily wipes off. No growth on tape; tape exhibits mild normal red
oxide dusting when cleaned with a cloth but this is normal for this
tape even under ideal storage; it has always shedded more dry oxide
than other comparable tapes.


Here's the most amazing discovery: as many know, Sony ULH tape is one
of the worst for not only sticky shed but also the backcoating
"oozing" and making the tape stick together. One of the worst
examples of sticky shed EVER. Well, back around 1993, before sticky
shed was widely known, I had a case of 10 of these tapes that wouldn't
play. I cleaned and cleaned, and NOTHING would fix them. Well, I was
professionally refinishing guitars/basses at the time, and one of the
most amazing polishes I've ever used for getting rid of tiny hairline
scratch and haze was NuFinish (in the orange bottle). This stuff
never ceased to amaze me in a painting environment, and one of the
qualities NuFinish has is that is amazing at removing "gum" and old
adhesive tape residue; say, from an old bumper sticker. Just a tiny
bit of NuFinish, and you can polish away nearly any old gummy
residue. Works AMAZING for that. I figured the Sony tapes were
ruined, so why not try to "NuFinish" the gumminess away? I used a
broken Pioneer RT-707 with the face removed for its high torque
motors, and literally soaked a terry cloth rag and the tape itself
with copious amounts of NuFinish; so much so that it was oozing
through the layers of tape. I soaked it several times, passing the
tape over my sloppy wet rag held with my fingers. You can't imagine
the mess...and you would NEVER think that the tape would play well
again! After I had a reel of sloppy wet dripping NuFinish engulfed
tape, I then did the same procedure but with a dry terry cloth towel,
and proceded to "polish" the NuFinish off the tape, as you would when
applying it as a car polish, thus removing the goo as well as all
contaminants (dust, fingerprints, etc). I passed the tape countless
times, and after several (and I mean several) passes with a new rag
each time I polished off all traces of the NuFinish AND the tape goo.
You know what??? IT WORKED!!! The worst of the worst tapes played
FLAWLESSLY, with NO sound degradation (I'm sure some information had
to be lost, but I couldn't hear any difference) and NO drop outs! You
have to be VERY careful as one screwup and you can easily bend or
crease the tape. But, the tapes sounded like the day I recorded them,
and after a TON of work, they left NO sign of oxide/binder breakdown
of ANY kind on the transport! OK, that was 14 years ago...

I haven't played any of these tapes in years. Some of them were in
this moldy box. I figured, "There's no WAY these will play." Well,
guess what. THESE TAPES PERFORMED FLAWLESSLY! They had NO mold
growth (thanks to the clear plastic type Sony box covering) and
exhibited NO sticky shed whatsoever! Remember, this was after YEARS
in outdoor moldy/muggy/moist/wet/damp storage, surrounded by tapes
covered in mold. Also, remember that 14 years ago these tapes oozed
and shedded so much that they wouldn't last 15 seconds on a machine.
NUFINISH FIXED THESE TAPES PERMANENTLY! This MAY be an alternative to
baking a tape...especially since baking is a temporary fix.
Concerns? Well, NuFinish is petroleum based and contains silicone
(apparently a good thing). But, although it seems this would be
harmful to tape in the long-term (the petroleum aspect) these tapes
EVEN AFTER being subjected to the WORST conditions imaginable had NO
sticky shed! This WORKS. I hope this may work for someone else who
wants a "permanent" fix for a tape.

BTW...I've read where someone did a similar thing using alcohol. But,
any time I've gotten any alcohol residue on a tape by accident (even
91%) it has caused drop-outs. You would HAVE to remove any deposit/
residue from any tape that you clean with alcohol. I can't think of
anything better to clean any sort of residue off of a tape than
NuFinish. This stuff works wonders for this. If it hadn't worked
nearly 15 years later (i.e., no long term damage to the tape from
NuFinish application 14 years ago) then I wouldn't recommend using it
now. But I can say with certainty that it DID work on this worst-case
scenario.


Hope this helps!
Jeff

George Orwell

unread,
May 3, 2007, 12:15:34 AM5/3/07
to
My take, nothing personal but you (are a megalomaniac) needs a crash
course on tape
storage start here for your do it yourselvers.

http://www.bagsunlimited.com/cart/browse.asp?subcat=587

It sounds like somewhere alongst the line you may have gotten
hold of a molded reel or some other disc which corrupted your
collection. NEVER TAKE ANY MEDIA WITH ANY MOLD.
You're asking for trouble.

gggo...@aol.com

unread,
May 3, 2007, 12:36:11 AM5/3/07
to

Thanks for the link to bagsunlimited, but the "megalomaniac" comment
was both childish, ignorant, and uncalled for. I have simply
thoroughly detailed and described an experience as well as offered one
of the first and only permanent solutions posted anywhere for
correcting sticky shed syndrome on open reel tapes. What is wrong
with being thorough and competent? Megalomania does not apply.

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