What'ya do with dumb clients? Sorry, this is is a rant.
Garthrr
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.
In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.
Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
communicating.
At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
hear a train wreck when its right there.....
All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
we mix, they are going to expect me to make this shit sound great.
Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
the therapy!
Garth~
"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
William Sommerwerck
I think the "problem" is that you believe you owe these people your knowledge,
experience, and expertise. That they aren't just buying studio time, but the
assistance of a legitimate expert who can help them produce a superior product.
I'm on your side. What's the point of knowing how to do things well if you can't
share that knowledge with others?
It seems you'll just have to accept the fact they're dummies who just won't
listen. That might make you feel guilty about taking their money, but it's their
problem, not yours.
From a practical point of view, however, you should consider asking these good
folk to sign a disclaimer, absolving you of any and all responsibility for the
quality of the final result. (Of course, that might put The Wrong Idea in their
minds.)
George Gleason
"Garthrr" <gar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030814062614...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this is
this is how I handle it as a LIVE sound engineer
When I run into this problem it always depends on how the client is
if they are just concerned to the point of being anal I can usually
finesse a workable solution
if they are stubborn I will step back and let them know that my experiance
and thier vision are in conflict
and that thier work (income) is not worth my reputation
give them what i have done for cost and suggest another guy whos style is
closer to how they (the client) approaches the project
I have stepped away from doing rap/hipHop live shows as I just can not abide
by what the clients ask for
putting out bad work(In your opinion) will only diminish your ability to
get the clients you want later
george
John Noll
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
> (will create later problems or simply won't sound good)?
snip....
I feel lucky when a session DOESN'T fit this description.
--
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701
Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631
Rifa Roederstein
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
> (will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? >
> All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
> we mix, they are going to expect me to make this shit sound great.
>
Hey Garth,
I've gone through this in my own primary line of work, which is real
estate,
although quite different than audio recording, quite the same in many
ways
as far as clients.
I was showing a recently a devorced woman houses once. Being an agent
representing her, the buyer, I felt the need to look out for her and
treated her like I would my own sister, using my knowledge of real
estate
and the building trades to find her a good solid home. We looked at
one
that had uneven floors, old, painted shut windows, the bottoms of the
2x4's
of the garage frame were all rotted, but the place was decorated
really cute
with nice vines, flowers, boarders etc. I told her "don't buy this
piece of shit, we'll find something better". Guess what? She found
another agent to sell it to her.
What I learned from that was that my job is to advise only. Not to
force my opinions on anyone, even if I know I'm right. If someone is
too stupid to
sponge all the knowledge and experience thay can from you, when they
are
paying you for it, that's their problem. I would advise "Mr. Ego"
once, then
let him have his way. He's paying you. Then when the mix sounds like
shit, tell him why it does, and he can pay you some more to fix it.
After all, you told
him it would.
Peace
Steve Carroll
gar...@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote:
Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. <gr>
Steve
Rick Ruskin
>Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
>a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
>client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
>(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
>might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
>correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
>or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
>after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
>what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.
>
>In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
>point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
>something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
>ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
>inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
>girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.
I did 2 projects with a duo like that. Their 2nd project paid for my
last new console right after I got it. Take the money. You're
definitely earning it.
>
>Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
>watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
>obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
>time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
>game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
>execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
>what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
>direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
>the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
>amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
>communicating.
Take the money. You're definitely earning it.
>
>At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
>In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
>song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
>that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
>passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
>of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
>be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
>that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
>hear a train wreck when its right there.....
Take the money. You're definitely earning it.
>
>All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
>we mix, they are going to expect me to make this shit sound great.
Take the money. You're definitely earning it.
>
>Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
>the therapy!
>
>Garth~
>
>
>"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney
To be serious, it's understandable that working with bull-headed
"no-talents" is stressful. You want to record good product but the
raw material makes it damn near impossible and your name is attached
to this garbage, if only by word of mouth. My attitude is if by some
miracle it actually finds an audience and sells, it becomes good promo
for you and your studio. If it does the expected and it goes in the
toilet, nobody will ever associate you with it. Either way, you got
paid for your work.
Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com
Gary Koliger
"Boogie Nights" that are worth buying the DVD or VHS for - especially the scene
where the guys want the studio owner to release the tapes to them before they have
paid the bill. The only thing I have been able to figure out to do about it is -
if nothing you do or say gets through just watch and admire and at the end of the
day take the money. Its especially painful/hilarious to watch couples go through
the "boy/girlfriend producer/manager" thing however the older I get the more my
intuition tells me to nip these things in the bud and send them down the street
before they waste any more of the time I have left on the planet.
Gary
Steve Carroll wrote:
> In article <20030814062614...@mb-m07.aol.com>,
> gar...@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote:
>
> > Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this
> > is
>
>
Deaf Mellon MESA
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
Garth,
Not to long ago, I did session as a bass player with my garage band.
We have two guitar players and they were clearly not in tune with each
other. The engineer on the session mentioned this condition, twice.
I told the guitar players they were out of tune too. They didn't fix
the problem. We went ahead
and record some tracks. The guitars were out of tune. At this point
I knew the session was doomed. You can lead folks to water, you can
fill the cup with water, you can hand them the cup. If they won't
drink, there ain't much you can do.
Some people just don't get it.
Deaf MM
Mike Rivers
> From a practical point of view, however, you should consider asking these good
> folk to sign a disclaimer, absolving you of any and all responsibility for the
> quality of the final result.
I've never understood the point to that. If you really think you're
going to end up with a job that you don't want associated with your
name or your studio, simply tell the client that you can't help him
and don't accept any more bookings. Why take money for doing something
that you don't want to accept responsibility for? Better to find a
better client. You don't have to work for EVERYBODY unless you're
really bad, and I don't think you are.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Fletcher
Garthrr wrote:
> Some common examples
> might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs,
Heh, heh, heh... ran into this one for the umpteenth time last year... I simply
said "nope... not doing any more overdubs... time for this to be mixed"... then
mixed it, gave it to the client and moved on. He [of course] went on with more
overdubs... mixed it again, and again, and again, etc... but my end of it was done
so I didn't care what he did...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"
EggHd
I used to have a client that would still be added another synth or something
part when he was making copies to send out! No kidding. I went to his house
and he was making cassettes to send out and doing an overdub with each one. At
that point, there is SO much wrong you just gotta laugh.
---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
Steve Carroll
Gary Koliger <gary.k...@betasound.ca> wrote:
I had a father/daughter deal awhile back and he had written this song he
wanted her to sing. The song was OK and she could sing a bit, but his
direction of trying to get the 'perfect' take was a sight to behold. He
tried every adjective under the sun but she just wasn't getting close to
whatever it was he couldn't convey. I'm not really sure he knew what he
wanted. Before she came to the studio, he was driven over by a
'co-producer friend' while we did the basic tracks. On a vocal track he
was going to sing on, he kept having me punch in at the syllable level
because he wasn't able to get his phrasing how he wanted it. I did the
punches exactly how he wanted them and the phrasing sounded absolutely
terrible. I commented about maybe trying complete lines or even
fragments and he said something like. "I guess you haven't worked with
many drunks". I didn't quite catch that one right away. See, they came
over early in the morning and he brought over a big briefcase.
Unbeknownst to me, the two of them were drinking beers from this case
for about two hours before it started to show (they hid it pretty well).
By this time, a singer I called in for some of this guy's other tunes,
was behind the mic, taking 'directions' from this guy who was now
plastered. He became extremely picky about things and kept continually
changing his mind, (he really was zonked) thereby pissing off the
vocalist. To add to this fun, I found out later that his co-producer
driver (there's a laugh... the 'driver' part, too) had 'SOAKED' the new
carpet in my drum booth with cheap beer.
Steve
David Morgan (MAMS)
'support' mode for the poor singer on the other side of the glass.
All I can say is, always keep the first full take. By the time the 'coaches'
are through ripping the poor singer a new rectal orifice and the singer
is exhausted... play them the first track and remind them that they were
finished a few hours earlier - they just couldn't see it because of their
own visions.
Fortunately, either it was so bad that I put it out of my mind, or I think
I've skated on the 'boyfriend/girlfriend' thing. I don't know how.....
--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
"Gary Koliger" <gary.k...@betasound.ca> wrote in message news:3F3BAB90...@betasound.ca...
Troy
Tooooooo funny!!!!
I would give him what he wants and demand that he dosen't put you in the
credits.As long as they are happy thats the main thing.Some people just
won't listen to reason but it's their dime so just nod and smile.If you pass
up the job they will just go to someone else and do the same thing so you
might as well get payed for it.
Garthrr <gar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030814062614...@mb-m07.aol.com...
Ricky W. Hunt
news:znr1060871967k@trad...
That I have to totally agree with but it's awfully hard when someone is
shoving a bunch of money at you. And why is it the people with the least
talent always seem to have the most money?
Ricky W. Hunt
news:3h8njvkh7kvmh57d1...@4ax.com...
> I did 2 projects with a duo like that. Their 2nd project paid for my
> last new console right after I got it. Take the money. You're
> definitely earning it.
I really think what it alls boils down to, at least for those of us who
haven't done enough work to build up a great reputation, is that someone's
gonna hear this crap and equate it with us. But the more I think about it
most people fall into two categories: those who can hear/care and those who
can't/don't. Most of these "records" only get played (at least seriously) by
family members or friends they can get to listen and they either are going
to think they are great no matter what or not be able to hear the
difference. People who can hear quality and know what to look for can
certainly distinguish between bad arrangement/song/performance and bad
engineering skills just as easily as you can hear a great song coming
through even if it was done on a cheap table top recorder. As long as he
puts his name on as producer and yours as engineer (as it seems he's really
just hiring you as a monkey to press "record" instead of for your great
expertise which he obviously can't hear) that's about as best as you can do.
Robert Pascarella
Pick your battles based on that particular situation.
Take ownership of the stuff that REALLY matters to you and let the
rest go. Cash the check and move on.
I deal with this situation almost every hour and I take the same
attitude: "Ahmm..that might not be a great idea. You see...."
If they insist, I may make a statement such as: "OK...but let me go on
record as saying this doesn't sound right". and then help them destroy
their product. Ofcourse, putting a blank label on the project aftwards
helps too.
I am hired to do one of three things.
1. Record the music as you desire it.
2. Offer my experience to make it as effective as possible.
3. Both.
The fourth thing is PAY ME!
Try to force #4 on a client when they don't want it and they will
never be back. You may not want them to come back, but realize that
everyone they speak to from then on may not come to you either.
The exception is a COMPLETE IDIOT that does not appear on the radar at
all. One would only hope that you filtered out that potential before
the session was booked.
As a staff sound designer and composer for a large production company
the exception does not exist for me. So...I smile and after my little
"warning" I let the client do as they wish. I sympathize with you bro,
don't let it get to you.
BP.
Troy
talent always seem to have the most money?"
Because people with money have "real jobs" and can't support themselves if
they have no talent !!! :-)
One thing I can say about the music business is the sound guy always gets
paid at the end of the day and the band usually ends up further in the
hole,this is why I gave up playing in bands for a living and got into the
pro audio end of it.I'm not bitter about it......just wiser!!!! ;-)
Ricky W. Hunt <ricky...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PsX_a.146896$Ho3.17954@sccrnsc03...
Higgs
of being anal.
Become enthusiastic about keeping any garbage that they seem to like,
as though it was all YOUR idea in the first place. They might just
want to do what you know is actually right by thinking it's THEIR own
idea.
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive...
Fletcher
>
> I used to have a client that would still be added another synth or something
> part when he was making copies to send out! No kidding. I went to his house
> and he was making cassettes to send out and doing an overdub with each one. At
> that point, there is SO much wrong you just gotta laugh.
To quote Anheiser Busch... "know when to say when"... [remarkable story!!]
Garth
> Might I be comically sarcastic?
>
> I think the "problem" is that you believe you owe these people your knowledge,
> experience, and expertise. That they aren't just buying studio time, but the
> assistance of a legitimate expert who can help them produce a superior product.
I think I owe them the best work I can do, assuming they dont impede
me. Thats part of it, but another part is that I enjoy doing good work
with good people who know how to do their job well. I like the feeling
of being part of a really good team who is creating something cool
because we all have something to bring to the party. When you get a
roll going and the thing is proceeding forward and everybody is
enjoying the work, thats a cool thing. I think I am somewhat selfish
cause I want it to be like that all the time. Of course I realize that
even in the world of highly paid and succesful producers and engineers
where you work with extraorinary talent as a matter of course--even
then its not always smooth because people have big egos and desires
for power and whatnot.
I know on another level this issue is a way in which I can learn
detachment. At my best I should be able to let them screw up their
project, be able to offer my best suggestions, and then not be
attached when they blow them off. But saying that and actually doing
it are two different things.
I've enjoyed all the stories in this thread of similar situations.
Garth~
ScotFraser
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. <gr>
>>
The Mixerman novel wasn't enough pain for you?
Scott Fraser
Unknown
but at the rehearsal I attended he spent a lot of time talking about
not wanting to "sell out." He mentioned that a lot of his favorite
bands sold out to get airplay. I personally think that I never would
have bought (much less have ever heard of) Filter if they hadn''t put
out a hit. They'd be playing in some dive somewhere by now, horribly
indebted to the label. Most bands need a Trojan Horse to get noticed.
He "really appreciated my honesty" when I pointed out that his band
needed to make a song more radio friendly because the station asked
them to cut one to promote a live show. Typical radio stuff - shorter
intro, put a bridge in there somewhere, more of a groove. None of the
four songs had any of this. I'm not going to write it for them, that's
their job. Whatever they do will certainly sound like them, that's
unavoidable. There is no dominant songwriter in the group so there can
be too much conversation about how to do something. I usually talk to
the guitarist where to fix styles and about laying hooks if things are
getting boring in the song.
Now I like the band and they do take advice well, but the whole
"selling out" argument had me laughing.
I think that selling out is what they have already done by having 40 +
hour work weeks repairing buildings instead of doing music. At the end
of the day, I don't imagine any touring / recording band is miserable
writing a song that has a melody so they can buy their girlfriend
dinner and make rent.
Why spend a work week intentionally not doing music just to keep your
music "pure?"
I think the "selling out" argument usually disguises a lack of talent
and dearth of interesting influences.
He asked me what a producer would do if the band was signed and they
were going into the studio. I said that they would get the shit kicked
out of them BEFORE they got into the studio and they would be forced
to write material and lyrics that the label wanted to promote or their
careers would likely end right there on the spot.
And by the way, I ARE a Producer. Don't wait to be signed to do YOUR
job.
I hope I don't have to hold him underwater until the little bubbles
stop coming out during the sessions.
Kurt "loaded for bear" Riemann
Charles Thomas
crap.
Unless you're playing music you fucking HATE, you're not selling out.
And even if you ARE playing music you fucking hate, if you're getting
paid you're WAY up on most miserable fuckers who do something terrible
to put bread on the table.
They'll grow out of it when they realize a truckload of youthful
idealism will get you exactly SQUAT in this world, and no closer to your
dream of "making it on your own terms".
CT
Kurt Ballou
it's important to note that, to some people, music is exclusively an
art-form, not a career. And if this art carries some revenue
generating entertainment value with it, then great. If not, that
doesn't make it any less meaningful, just less commercial.
I personally came out of the DIY punk community of the late 80's/early
90's. For some, it was DIY by choice, for others it was DIY out of
necessity. No clubs, record labels, studios, or booking agents
understood us or cared about us. So we did it all ourselves...
because we loved to play music and did what we need to continue to
play. We never attempted to make a cent. And that was the beauty of
it. Everything we did felt totally clean and pure because we did it
for love of music.
Fast forward 10 years... some of my friends have lost their idealism
and tried to steer themselves towards "success." My band stayed the
way it was and "success" came to us. I own a busy recording studio
that is booked solid into January. The singer owns a prominent
independent label and graphic design firm. Our bassist owns a
skateboard company. And our roadie owns a reputable booking agency.
That being said, working shitty day jobs sucks. I don't recommend it
to anyone. I was a well paid biomedical engineer until the
opportunity to make a living at music presented itself to me.
If these guys are looking to you for advice as to what direction to
take with their music, rather than tell them to write more hooks, I'd
advise them to get better day jobs. Even if they do "sellout" and
write catchy pop songs, their chances of making a living at music for
any length of time are pretty slim.
transducr
> One of my favorite bands that I produce has a new singer. He's okay
> but at the rehearsal I attended he spent a lot of time talking about
> not wanting to "sell out." He mentioned that a lot of his favorite
> bands sold out to get airplay. I personally think that I never would
> have bought (much less have ever heard of) Filter if they hadn''t put
> out a hit. They'd be playing in some dive somewhere by now, horribly
> indebted to the label. Most bands need a Trojan Horse to get noticed.
that could be true...although, in the case of Filter i don't think it
happened that way. the two guys who started that band were programmers
for Nine Inch Nails for some time and that's how they met. due to
their involvement in such circles, i think they *may* have had a few
industry connects going for them ahead of time. they weren't a garage
band with a great song who got discovered. of course, these days
(maybe always) garage bands aren't discovered they're created
(crafted?), but that's another story.
> Why spend a work week intentionally not doing music just to keep your
> music "pure?"
Frank Lloyd Wright said something to the effect of: better to make an
honest living at something you hate than to make dishonest living at
the expense of something you love.
i think the wisdom here is that making a living is a necessary evil in
this world and you go to the thing you love to make that bullshit
worthwhile...to get you through the week.
if you mix business and pleasure (so to speak) you run the risk of
turning the thing you truly love...the one thing that you look to for
solace...into the job you hate all week, then where do you go?
i read an interview with Peter Weller (you may remember him from such
films as Robocop, Buckaroo Bonzai and Lead Paint: Delicious but
Deadly) where he talks about how played saxophone in a band to pay his
way through acting school and how he really began to hate the
sax...now that acting is his living (i know, i know...it's arguable)
he plays the sax to relax and blow off steam.
grass is always greener, i suppose.
> I think the "selling out" argument usually disguises a lack of talent
> and dearth of interesting influences.
i would say the "selling out" argument calls atention to a lack of
talent, if anything. if nothing else, it calls attention to a lack of
understanding and a naivety about the goings-on of the world around
them.
the thing is that most people who make a big show of their convictions
about "selling out, man" have nothing that anyone really wants to buy
anyway...so they're safe in asserting this attitude, knowing that down
the road, instead of having to admit that maybe they just weren't good
enough, they can instead revel in their wealth of "artistic
credibility".
it always makes me crack a smile thinking about a person of this ilk
sitting in an armchair telling their kid(s) how punk rock daddy used
to be and how, say what you will about his modest life, he never sold
out! and then replacing that person with the arch-nemesis of his
youth: the high-school football team's quarterback telling his kid(s)
about the big game...say what you will about his modest life, that
night he was a king among men!
>
> He asked me what a producer would do if the band was signed and they
> were going into the studio. I said that they would get the shit kicked
> out of them BEFORE they got into the studio and they would be forced
> to write material and lyrics that the label wanted to promote or their
> careers would likely end right there on the spot.
wow. i've never heard of a producer kicking the shit out of an entire
band before, but it sounds like an appropriate method. best to stick
to producing apathetic grunge trios with that approach though. not as
many of them and not as much fight in 'em, since they usually hate
themselves and want to die anyway.
there is of course the Phil Spector approach: hold the band at
gunpoint in your living room while making them listen to your past
production triumphs as you sip wine from a gaudy, golden, jewel-laden
goblet...worked with the Ramones anyway.
Garth
> The exception is a COMPLETE IDIOT that does not appear on the radar at
> all. One would only hope that you filtered out that potential before
> the session was booked.
Normally I do filter the crap out. The funny thing is that this was
originally a cool project brought in by a really good guitar player
who has recorded at my place on a number of projects. He and I do good
work together and we just sort of "get" each other. He was arranging
and producing. He was hiring good players and the shit was slammin.
The weak link was the singer but she is ok and was going with the
program pretty well albeit not knowing what was going on half the time
("you have to tell me when to come in after the solo") but at least
she was cooperating as best she could. Then her boyfriend got involved
and all of the sudden the thing just blew up. The gtr player/producer
has quit twice since then and is now back on the project again but
just as a gtr player and so the whole productivity has practically
ground to a halt.
After reading the responses in this thread I have adopted the attitude
that several people have suggested which is to sit back, do what they
tell me and collect my check. At the rate they are going we wont be
done anytime soon so in a way thats a good thing.
Garth~
Troy
I know its hard to watch something fall apart that you know you can fix.Its
called pride in your work,but you have adopted the right attitude in this
case.
Good luck
Garth <gar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:823953dd.03081...@posting.google.com...
Robert Pascarella
>and all of the sudden the thing just blew up.
AKA: The Yoko Effect.
I NEVER saw a boy friend or girl friend who contributed positively to
a recording session. If you ask me, the MAIN job of a good producer is
to make sure this doesn't happen. He should have escorted "boy friend"
out of the building and made him wait in the car.
BP
LeBaron & Alrich
> While the term "Sell Out" certainly has become comedic in these times,
> it's important to note that, to some people, music is exclusively an
> art-form, not a career. And if this art carries some revenue
> generating entertainment value with it, then great. If not, that
> doesn't make it any less meaningful, just less commercial.
"Selling out" could also be thought of as "buying in".
I think the basic question can be, "Do we want sales of this thing to
pay for having done it, or are we just doing it for the sake of doing it
and not expecting to recoup?"
Business-driven decisions are not always bad for the music. Think
"Motown".
--
ha
LeBaron & Alrich
> AKA: The Yoko Effect.
> I NEVER saw a boy friend or girl friend who contributed positively to
> a recording session. If you ask me, the MAIN job of a good producer is
> to make sure this doesn't happen. He should have escorted "boy friend"
> out of the building and made him wait in the car.
Had an experienced if individual gal here, with some very nice credits
in her career. She had a collection of stuff recorded a while ago and
one cut in particular to which she wanted to add a few tracks to send it
off to somebody. Her boyfriend was paying for it, so of course, he was
"the perdooser".
We tracked quickly and he stayed out of it pretty much except for
hassling her a little here and there over stuff that was irrelevant.
Then it came time to mix. He explained to me that we'd need to make
several mixes so that we could pick out which one was best.
We had added some string tracks and since the whole thing was a little
lifeless with no sense of real space, I decided some fake space would
help. So I fed the strings to an aux to a 'verb and returned it, but not
statically; as I mixed the very first time I played with that return. It
caused the whole thing to swell and throb in places without being
distracting or sounding out of place. The result was really quite fun.
When I started Run #1 of the mix the BF was standing officiously with a
stern and judgemental look on his face. He was obviously getting getting
ready to make some big decisions. The tune ran, I played the faders and
when it was all done, I looked up to see him completely off mental
balance, his mouth hanging open, unable to speak. It was clearly a done
deal in the very first pass and there was no way he could even _imagine_
how a different mix might be better. The artist said, "Wow! Thank you",
and it was all over except for the money. To his credit, he paid me
extra.
These BF/GF producer situations do not generally turn out so luckily.
<g>
--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
Scott Dorsey
Ask me in a few months. I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
for the Choir That Can't Sing. The Choir That Can't Sing has been a customer
of mine for some time now, and they have done a remarkable job of actually
producing and selling disks. If they did half as good a job of actually
performing....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
EggHd
for the Choir That Can't Sing >>
What a great name!!!!
---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
Scott Dorsey
><< I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
>for the Choir That Can't Sing >>
>
>What a great name!!!!
Well, they don't call themselves that, but everyone in the office here does...
georgeh
>Business-driven decisions are not always bad for the music. Think
>"Motown".
But then Berry Gordy had a musical (at least songwriting) background
to guide his biz decisions.
LeBaron & Alrich
Kurt Ballou
very very well written. agree, except for this one statement:
> the thing is that most people who make a big show of their convictions
> about "selling out, man" have nothing that anyone really wants to buy
> anyway...so they're safe in asserting this attitude, knowing that down
> the road, instead of having to admit that maybe they just weren't good
> enough, they can instead revel in their wealth of "artistic
> credibility".
ever heard of fugazi? their fierce independance has given their music
a sense of purpose and honesty that can't be ignored. sure, they are
the exception to the rule, but i'd still like to believe that if you
stick to your guns and create innovative important music, that you
will be recognized.
Carey Carlan
news:bhlmnc$aso$1...@panix2.panix.com:
> EggHd <eg...@aol.com> wrote:
>><< I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
>>for the Choir That Can't Sing >>
>>
>>What a great name!!!!
>
> Well, they don't call themselves that, but everyone in the office here
> does... --scott
Aw, Scott, you blew it for me. I had this vision of a light-hearted group
of well intentioned amateurs with no ego and no aspirations. I suspect
reality is nothing like that.
Pat Sproule
about it :)
rich wells
Kurt, as well as a long list of others that to my mind fit the same
broad category: bands that I know and love precisely because they
aren't trying to validate themselves by "tightening the arrangements"
and all the rest that was discussed here. The people I'm thinking of
make music based on their own sense of what works best, and (I
believe) don't bother to tailor what they do for anyone else's taste.
The most extreme examples to me include bands or people like the
Boredoms, Flying Luttenbachers, Peter Brotzmann, Lightning Bolt, Arab
on Radar, Don Cab, and of course, Converge (just going on Jane Doe,
need to get more).
Even great bands that are somewhat more "conventional" in their
songwriting approach by having readily definable verses and choruses
(early Jesus Lizard, US Maple, Hot Snakes) obviously aren't seen as
conventional or even good by the masses or they'd have already
attained their rightful place at the top of the charts, where I think
they should be.
And I suppose that's the only positive thing to come out of all of it,
because it sure doesn't seem to be money, popularity, or longevity for
people doing this kind of music. It's purely that sometimes, some
people do something that really gets me for reasons that may not have
occurred to me previously. Because they made music that, instead of
being palatable or groovy or whatever, made me stop in my tracks and
go "what the...?".
To wrap up my little argument, I'll get back to Converge. Over the
years I'd seen reviews elsewhere that piqued my interest. When I saw
you that posted here occasionally, I bought Jane Doe. What it comes
down to is that I became excited when the first track came on, and I
would have been disappointed and sold the CD if what came out of the
speakers was just normal hardcore, or boogie, or the blues, or Pearl
Jam, or any other of the multitude of music that I find completely
normal and boring.
Different strokes,
Rick
god...@aol.com (Kurt Ballou) wrote in message news:<d9baa238.03081...@posting.google.com>...
transducr
yes, i have heard of fugazi. i've been a fan for many years.
but they are the antithesis of the mentality i'm describing. they
(meaning not just Fugazi, but those who started/and run Dischord
Records, including of course Ian Mackeye) didn't just stand around in
the garage talking about not "selling out" and waiting and hoping that
someone would come along and 'discover' them and give them a big
record deal with lots of money and complete artistic control, because
they respected their convictions and artistic genius...
here is a group of people that looked at the recording industry and
decided they didn't want to play by those rules...so insteading of
standing around bitching about it, they circumvented it and did their
own thing on their own terms.
it's not because they just "[stuck to their] guns" and eventually it
paid off...these guys put in a lot of hard work into making their band
a financial/creative success. nobody did it for them and certainly
didn't happen by itself. they even still do all their bookings and
concert arrangements themselves and Ian still counts the money after
the show.
i think we're both on the same page here. my point is that the people
who are standing around talking about "not selling out" are in no
danger of selling anything, because they are too busy talking about
their convictions to act upon them.
the irony, of course, being that here i am spending my time sitting
around busily typing critical things about people who are too busy
spending their time standing around talking about "selling out"...
>sigh<
as a side note, i think that Fugazi are, to quote Danny Glover,
"getting too old for this shit."
the last i saw them, they seemed to be a little tired (not like
sleepy, but more like weary of suffering fools) and a little fed up
with the punk rock aspects of touring the way they do.
not anything in particular, just a marked attitudinal difference
towards eveything that was far more negative than i had experienced
when talking to them years prior...well, Ian at least.
quite frankly, i'm very impressed that they have sustained the whole
thing this long...
transducr
> The most extreme examples to me include bands or people like the
> Boredoms, Flying Luttenbachers, Peter Brotzmann, Lightning Bolt, Arab
> on Radar, Don Cab, and of course, Converge (just going on Jane Doe,
> need to get more).
mmmm...boredoms and peter brotzmann. good stuff.
> Even great bands that are somewhat more "conventional" in their
> songwriting approach by having readily definable verses and choruses
> (early Jesus Lizard, US Maple, Hot Snakes) obviously aren't seen as
> conventional or even good by the masses or they'd have already
> attained their rightful place at the top of the charts, where I think
> they should be.
but see that's the part that causes a great deal of confusion to the
types of people we're talking about here.
you don't attain a "place at the top of the charts" by being "good".
you attain that by having a label with money and a good PR dept. or
reps that they feel they should put behind you.
you can be on a label with money and good PR capabilities and if they
don't think the money they spend on the media blitz (including payola
for TV and Radio) for your record will be worth the returns, they'll
put that money behind another artist on the roster. once the record
has been pressed the PR budget is their final chance to cut their
losses. once the expense of simply putting the record out is a done
deal, do they gamble more $ on promotion or just print up some posters
and album flats and let the record do what it's gonna do and hope for
the best/write it off?
certainly the Jesus Lizard (since you mentioned them) had enough stuff
once they went major that was "hooky" and accessible enough for the
hard rock/alternative crowd their label was marketing them to...they
could've had an edgy video or two in rotation on Mtv and certainly
there was a personality that could've been exploited for media
attention in David Yow...but it didn't happen. why? who knows...except
that for one reason or another they didn't get the cash. there are
many examples similar to the Jesus Lizard when it comes to indy bands
signed to majors.
essentially when it comes to "the masses" deciding on what music is
"good" or not, what you have is a Scantron™ type Multiple Choice
system. they are given their options by Clear Channel, MTV Networks
and the other main media outlets and are expected to fill in the
bubble and make their selections.
for those who care to seek out music for themselves, deciding what's
"good" is basically all Essay Questions...it's subjective and the
sounds paint a thousand words. when presented with a limited,
genre-based, focus-group, demographic-oriented grouping, the question
simply doesn't make any sense (D. None of the above.)
>
> And I suppose that's the only positive thing to come out of all of it,
> because it sure doesn't seem to be money, popularity, or longevity for
> people doing this kind of music. It's purely that sometimes, some
> people do something that really gets me for reasons that may not have
> occurred to me previously. Because they made music that, instead of
> being palatable or groovy or whatever, made me stop in my tracks and
> go "what the...?".
essentially everyone's reasons are their own. some need an ego fed,
some are just along for the ride. some will make good decisions and
find opportunities to make a living from their music in less public
ways, some will paint billboards after the party is over (like that
guy from the hair band "Kix")...some will network during their time in
the sun and continue to work in the industry in some capacity or
another (A&R, etc.). some will start studios, some will start
families, some will self-destruct...it takes all kinds and trying to
find the good or bad/postive or negative in all of it is just another
way of romanticizing the whole thing...which may be necessary in order
for some people to enjoy thinking about the whole mess.
for you it may be the music that you loved for someone else it might
remind them of a good time or a bad time or whatever...
i know it's only rock'n'roll, but i like it.
...sorry for the ramblings...
Unknown
The singer was VERY easy to get along with. Great consistent vocals,
the band had tightened the arrangements (why introduce the song 4
times in a row?) and they played as well as anyone I've done since the
last time they were in.
Great experience for all of us, and we didn't "sell out."
We all worked with respect for each other's abilities and weaknesses
and it was tres cool.
Album is next.
Kurt "eating my own words" Riemann
Roger W. Norman
something. Maintaining artistic integrity is more than just denying making
a song radio friendly. That's a given, and the given is that you want
people to hear your music. Selling out would be more along the lines where
one's own thoughts and emotions were negated to be someone else's thoughts
and emotions.
The fact is that if these guys are worth their salt, then they should be a
bit more open to learning their craft. It's not art until it's artfully
done. A song may be a creation, but unless it has appeal, it's an abortion.
Learning how to CRAFT songs is the artful expression of songs. That can,
and does, entail exactly the same amount of art as does doing a commercial,
or the most avant garde composition around.
Perhaps they just need a clear picture of the differences between their
"art" and how much of an art craftily composed songs are. Spend a little
time with them and give them examples of what you might deem to be "art"
songs that only exist for their artistic endeavor, and then show them some
where an artist's craft is in writing songs (Fire and Rain by James Taylor
is an excellent example of a well crafted song). Get them to explore poetry
so they'll understand better how different stanzas can relate to different
emotions, methods of employing music as an extension of their lyrics, places
where lyrics can't rise to the quest, or where their music might be a little
mundane in comparison to the emotions they actually want to get across.
Have them study some Haiku and some Shakespeare. Mostly younger people tend
to be well versed in their own thoughts and emotions, but as we've noticed
here a number of times, they can't truly express those thoughts and emotions
adequately. If they are a little better read, they may decide that there's
art in the inclusion of different forms of communications that allow them to
step over this particular hump in their learning process. Even learning how
to write a song that's almost exactly like someone else's song is a positive
step because it will teach them that "sell out" songs are indeed art too.
As a negative aspect to approach them with, ask them to compare themselves
to any well known "sell out" artist they can think of and ask them why they
think they are better. Do they put their pants on differently than most?
Are their levels of angst any different than anyone else's? Are they so
damned self-centered that they think their answers are the only ones? In
other words, don't let them make you defend everyone else's work. Make them
defend why they think their work is art and other's work isn't art. Make
them think. It's usually pretty good for the brain.
Just my long winded $.02
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
how far $20 really goes.
<Kurt Riemann> wrote in message
news:19hqjv89qmluh1iq1...@4ax.com...
Jonas Eckerman
news:Xns93D99E3F310F2...@198.99.146.10:
> Aw, Scott, you blew it for me. I had this vision of a light-hearted
> group of well intentioned amateurs with no ego and no aspirations. I
> suspect reality is nothing like that.
It can be like that. I do have a live recording (done on a realy cheap
cassette recorder with it's built-in mics) of two guys calling themselves
"Jättesämst" wich, translated to english, means something like "the very
worst". :-)
/Jonas
Ben Bradley
I recall hearing the world's most awful rendition of Also Sprach
Zarathustra on "Weekend Radio" a few months back, I couldn't believe
how bad it was, even for that show. I checked the show notes and did
some online reading about Portsmouth Sinfonia:
http://members.chello.at/hspecht/default.htm
The interview with Brian Eno was interesting:
http://members.teleweb.at/hspecht/interview.htm
It's much easier to read about this orchestra than to listen to it.
ryanm
news:20030814062614...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do
when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are
counterproductive
> (will create later problems or simply won't sound good)?
>
Two things:
1. It kills me to hear stories like this, because time in a good room
with an experienced engineer is something I just can't afford a lot of, and
if I could, I certainly wouldn't spend it ignoring the professionals so that
I can "realize my vision". It pisses me off that those without talent always
seem to have the money for studio time, while those with real talent and
desire never do.
2. Having been a graphic designer for more than 10 years and a software
developer for more than 7, I can relate. I constantly get the "That's
perfect, now let's make the font 10 pts bigger and make it bright red!" in
response to my carefully laid out comps. It's frustrating as hell, but when
it comes down to it, I simply cash the check and don't include that piece in
my portfolio.
ryanm
Carey Carlan
news:vk0ocpl...@corp.supernews.com:
> 1. It kills me to hear stories like this, because time in a good
> room
> with an experienced engineer is something I just can't afford a lot
> of, and if I could, I certainly wouldn't spend it ignoring the
> professionals so that I can "realize my vision". It pisses me off that
> those without talent always seem to have the money for studio time,
> while those with real talent and desire never do.
You've got to remember that this sort ONLY gets into the studio with lots
of cash. If they were working on talent alone, they'd have starved long
ago. There's a lot of cash rolling around. A little leaks into the
studio.
Charles Thomas
"Roger W. Norman" <rno...@starpower.net> wrote:
[snip] a bunch of really well-written stuff to which I say "Amen"!
>Selling out would be more along the lines where
>one's own thoughts and emotions were negated to be someone
>else's thoughts and emotions.
That's my point exactly. Unless you're up there preaching about
something you actively oppose just to sell records (e.g. a pacifist
singing gangsta rap that glorifies guns and violence just to sell his CD
or get a "deal"), I don't see being better at crafting a song or getting
lessons to be a more proficient instrumentalist or vocalist as "selling
out".
For some reason, there are a whole crap-load of people out there who
think that being reasonably skilled at ones craft is "buying into the
system" and that every masturbatory nuance of whatever they regurgitate
onto tape is so profoundly meaningful and emotionally resonant that "to
alter one note would bring diminishment".
Meanwhile most of the audience can't even hear the lyrics and are asking
themselves why they have to sit through 2:35 of a repetetive intro just
to get to the first verse.
CT
Mike Rivers
> You've got to remember that this sort ONLY gets into the studio with lots
> of cash. If they were working on talent alone, they'd have starved long
> ago. There's a lot of cash rolling around. A little leaks into the
> studio.
The rest leaks into the hands of the suppliers of recording equipment.
Then they ask for (free) advice as to what to buy next since their
recordings suck and they want to upgrade to more "professional"
equipment.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Mike
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
> might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
> correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
> or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
> after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
> what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.
>
> In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
> point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
> something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
> ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
> inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
> girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.
>
> Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
> watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
> obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
> time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
> game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
> execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
> what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
> direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
> the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
> amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
> communicating.
>
> At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
> In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
> song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
> that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
> passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
> of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
> be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
> that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
> hear a train wreck when its right there.....
>
> All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
> we mix, they are going to expect me to make this shit sound great.
>
> Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
> the therapy!
>
> Garth~
>
>
> "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney
How bout keeping and Edit Decision List of sorts. Then when it sucks
you can go back and show the client where he/she made a decision
contrary to what you advised.
The other thing you might try, is just fixing it without telling them.
Play it back to them and if they think it is great, no one is the
wiser.
Sidechain a gate to open on the bass notes, closing out the left hand
piano notes.
I know where your at. Many an experience with such headstrong yahoos.
Problem in the long run is if it sucks they will blame you.
Mike Rivers
> How bout keeping and Edit Decision List of sorts. Then when it sucks
> you can go back and show the client where he/she made a decision
> contrary to what you advised.
It doesn't do much for the vibe to "show the client" where he went
wrong by doing something against your advice. Go back to a better take
that you've saved and say "Don't you think this sounds really good?"
> The other thing you might try, is just fixing it without telling them.
They ALWAYS know.
Unknown
>For some reason, there are a whole crap-load of people out there who
>think that being reasonably skilled at ones craft is "buying into the
>system" and that every masturbatory nuance of whatever they regurgitate
>onto tape is so profoundly meaningful and emotionally resonant that "to
>alter one note would bring diminishment".
>
>Meanwhile most of the audience can't even hear the lyrics and are asking
>themselves why they have to sit through 2:35 of a repetetive intro just
>to get to the first verse.
>
>CT
An interesting argument was made that bands like Fugazi have done it
on their own terms. I'll grant that. But if I put the miscalculations
that many bands put in their own songs and reedited a bunch of Fugazi
to match the bad decisions, you'd think that Fugazi sucked.
Pop music doesn't have to be tame. It just has to reach people.
There are hundreds of thousands of people out there who will listen,
but until you learn to dial the phone, endless number punching won't
connect you. They need to learn the language. . .
Kurt Riemann
Analogeezer
> One of my favorite bands that I produce has a new singer. He's okay
> but at the rehearsal I attended he spent a lot of time talking about
> not wanting to "sell out." He mentioned that a lot of his favorite
> bands sold out to get airplay. I personally think that I never would
> have bought (much less have ever heard of) Filter if they hadn''t put
> out a hit. They'd be playing in some dive somewhere by now, horribly
> indebted to the label. Most bands need a Trojan Horse to get noticed.
>
This sounds pretty typical...I bet the singer is the creative spark in
the band and perhaps the other band members came across you.
So they are talking about this "producer" who is going to make them
into something, and this guy's first reaction is to think of some old
guy with a stogie, sitting in a chair calling all the creative shots.
"Radio Friendly" is a relative term, but your suggestions didn't
matter as much as the fact you are an outsider that wants to change
his ****.
It sounds like though, once he started working with you, he realized
that you were not really going to totally change things around, just a
few nips, tucks, suggestions, so at that point he realized he was not
threatened.
You tend to see this a lot too whenever new band members join that
want to have creative input, especially if the guy/gal they replaced
was not in on the songwriting, etc.
People just have a natural tendency to not trust the "new guy", and at
first will sort of ignore the fact they are actually improving things.
If they have self confidence and a clue at all, they usually drop the
defensive mode after a short time.
Radio Friendly coming from you meant "Backstreet Boys" probably to
this guy...you had a different agenda and once he saw what that was he
came around to it.
Sounds like a reasonable guy, especially for a lead singer <g>
Analogeezer
Unknown
>
>Sounds like a reasonable guy, especially for a lead singer <g>
>
>Analogeezer
Yeah, the session started off looking like some Mixerman Diary entry
with the vocalist picking up the bass and snapping some rhythm while I
was getting other suitar sounds, but suddenly it all started going
well.
It happened when we all did our jobs and they played the song and it
instantly started sounding really great. We were all open to
suggestions and really didn't have many.
One thing that DID happen was that we got bogged down in some harmony
work that I eventually sacked in the radio mix. (I did two mixes - one
for radio, the other for them.) It slowed up in the section where it
usually does -
Last overdub
Last section of the song
Everything is balls to the wall
They "have to have" some ultimate fill in there.
The (guitar fill, vocal riff, etc.) wasn't worked out in rehearsal.
--------------This stuff always takes waaaaaay too long.
Oh, well, their dime, their lesson. It did turn out well, though.
Kurt Riemann
ed
where he reacts to the interviewer suggesting that he has sold out
with the following reply. The interview itself can be found at the
link below and is well worth reading (though long so I'm only gonna
post this excerpt).
http://www.armchairnews.com/freelance/eggers.html
===========================================
You actually asked me the question: "Are you taking any steps to keep
shit real?" I want you always to look back on this time as being a
time when those words came out of your mouth.
Now, there was a time when such a question - albeit probably without
the colloquial spin - would have originated from my own brain. Since I
was thirteen, sitting in my orange-carpeted bedroom in ostensibly
cutting-edge Lake Forest, Illinois, subscribing to the Village Voice
and reading the earliest issues of Spin, I thought I had my ear to the
railroad tracks of avant garde America. (Laurie Anderson, for example,
had grown up only miles away!) I was always monitoring, with the most
sensitive and well-calibrated apparatus, the degree of selloutitude
exemplified by any given artist - musical, visual, theatrical,
whatever. I was vigilant and merciless and knew it was my job to be
so.
I bought R.E.M.'s first EP, Chronic Town, when it came out and thought
I had found God. I loved Murmur, Reckoning, but then watched, with
greater and greater dismay, as this obscure little band's audience
grew, grew beyond obsessed people like myself, grew to encompass
casual fans, people who had heard a song on the radio and picked up
Green and listened for the hits. Old people liked them, and stupid
people, and my moron neighbor who had sex with truck drivers. I wanted
these phony R.E.M.-lovers dead.
But it was the band's fault, too. They played on Letterman. They
switched record labels. Even their album covers seemed progressively
more commercial. And when everyone I knew began liking them, I
stopped. Had they changed, had their commitment to making art with
integrity changed? I didn't care, because for me, any sort of
popularity had an inverse relationship with what you term the keeping
'real' of 'shit.' When the Smiths became slightly popular they were
sellouts. Bob Dylan appeared on MTV and of course was a sellout.
Recently, just at dinner tonight, after a huge, sold-out reading by
David Sedaris and Sarah Vowell (both sellouts), I was sitting next to
an acquaintance, a very smart acquaintance married to the
singer-songwriter of a very well-known band. I mentioned that I had
seen the Flaming Lips the night before. She rolled her eyes. "Oh I
really liked them on 90210," she sneered, assuming that this would put
me and the band in our respective places.
However.
Was she aware that The Flaming Lips had composed an album requiring
the simultaneous playing of four separate discs, on four separate CD
players? Was she aware that the band had once, for a show at Lincoln
Center, handed out to audience members something like 100 portable
tape players, with 100 different tapes, and had them all played at the
same time, creating a symphonic sort of effect, one which completely
devastated everyone in attendance? I went on and on to her about the
band's accomplishments, their experiments. Was she convinced that they
were more than their one appearance with Jason Priestly? She was.
Now, at that concert the night before, Wayne Coyne, the lead singer,
had himself addressed this issue, and to great effect. After playing
much of their new album, the band paused and he spoke to the audience.
I will paraphrase what he said:
"Hi. Well, some people get all bitter when some song of theirs gets
popular, and they refuse to play it. But we're not like that. We're
happy that people like this song. So here it goes."
Then they played the song. (You know the song.) "She Don't Use Jelly"
is the song, and it is a silly song, and it was their most popular
song. But to highlight their enthusiasm for playing the song, the band
released, from the stage and from the balconies, about 200 balloons.
(Some of the balloons, it should be noted, were released by two grown
men in bunny suits.) Then while playing the song, Wayne sang with a
puppet on his hand, who also sang into the microphone. It was fun. It
was good.
But was it a sellout? Probably. By some standards, yes. Can a good
band play their hit song? Should we hate them for this? Probably,
probably. First 90210, now they go playing the song every stupid
night. Everyone knows that 90210 is not cutting edge, and that a
cutting edge alternarock band should not appear on such a show. That
rule is clearly stated in the obligatory engrained computer-chip
sellout manual that we were all given when we hit adolescence.
But this sellout manual serves only the lazy and small. Those who
bestow sellouthood upon their former heroes are driven to do so by,
first and foremost, the unshakable need to reduce. The average one of
us - a taker-in of various and constant media, is absolutely
overwhelmed - as he or she should be - with the sheer volume of
artistic output in every conceivable medium given to the world every
day - it is simply too much to begin to process or comprehend - and so
we are forced to try to sort, to reduce. We designate, we label, we
diminish, we create hierarchies and categories.
Through largely received wisdom, we rule out Tom Waits's new album
because it's the same old same old, and we save $15. U2 has lost it,
Radiohead is too popular. Country music is bad, Puff Daddy is bad, the
last Wallace book was bad because that one reviewer said so. We decide
that TV is bad unless it's the Sopranos. We liked Rick Moody and
Jonathan Lethem and Jeffrey Eugenides until they allowed their books
to become movies. And on and on. The point is that we do this and to a
certain extent we must do this. We must create categories, and to an
extent, hierarchies.
But you know what is easiest of all? When we dismiss.
Oh how gloriously comforting, to be able to write someone off. Thus,
in the overcrowded pantheon of alternarock bands, at a certain
juncture, it became necessary for a certain brand of person to write
off The Flaming Lips, despite the fact that everyone knew beyond a
shadow of a doubt that their music was superb and groundbreaking and
real. We could write them off because they shared a few minutes with
Jason Priestley and that terrifying Tori Spelling person. Or we could
write them off because too many magazines have talked about them. Or
because it looked like the bassist was wearing too much gel in his
hair.
One less thing to think about. Now, how to kill off the rest of our
heroes, to better make room for new ones?
We liked Guided by Voices until they let Ric Ocasek produce their
latest album, and everyone knows Ocasek is a sellout, having written
those mushy Cars songs in the late 80s, and then - gasp! - produced
Weezer's album, and of course Weezer's no good, because that Sweater
song was on the radio, right, and dorky teenage girls were singing it
and we cannot have that and so Weezer is bad and Ocasek is bad and
Guided by Voices are bad, even if Spike Jonze did direct that one
Weezer video, and we like Spike Jonze, don't we?
Oh. No. We don't. We don't like him anymore because he's married to
Sofia Coppola, and she is not cool. Not cool. So bad in Godfather 3,
such nepotism. So let's check off Spike Jonze - leaving room in our
brains for… who??
It's exhausting.
The only thing worse than this sort of activity is when people,
students and teachers alike, run around college campuses calling each
other racists and anti-Semites. It's born of boredom, lassitude. Too
cowardly to address problems of substance where such problems actually
are, we claw at those close to us. We point to our neighbor, in the
khakis and sweater, and cry foul. It's ridiculous. We find enemies
among our peers because we know them better, and their proximity and
familiarity means we don't have to get off the couch to dismantle
them.
And now, I am also a sellout. Here are my sins, many of which you may
know about already:
First, I was a sellout because Might magazine took ads.
Then I was a sellout because our pages were color, and not stapled
together at the Kinko's.
Then I was a sellout because I went to work for Esquire.
Now I'm a sellout because my book has sold many copies.
And because I have done many interviews.
And because I have let people take my picture.
And because my goddamn picture has been in just about every fucking
magazine and newspaper printed in America.
And now, as far as McSweeney's is concerned, The Advocate interviewer
wants to know if we're losing also our edge, if the magazine is
selling out, hitting the mainstream, if we're still committed to
publishing unknowns, and pieces killed by other magazines.
And the fact is, I don't give a fuck. When we did the last issue, this
was my thought process: I saw a box. So I decided we'd do a box. We
were given stories by some of our favorite writers - George Saunders,
Rick Moody (who is uncool, uncool!), Haruki Murakami, Lydia Davis,
others - and so we published them. Did I wonder if people would think
we were selling out, that we were not fulfilling the mission they had
assumed we had committed ourselves to?
No. I did not. Nor will I ever. We just don't care. We care about
doing what we want to do creatively. We want to be interested in it.
We want it to challenge us. We want it to be difficult. We want to
reinvent the stupid thing every time. Would I ever think, before I did
something, of how those with sellout monitors would respond to this or
that move? I would not. The second I sense a thought like that
trickling into my brain, I will put my head under the tires of a bus.
You want to know how big a sellout I am?
A few months ago I wrote an article for Time magazine and was paid
$12,000 for it I am about to write something, 1,000 words, 3 pages or
so, for something called Forbes ASAP, and for that I will be paid
$6,000 For two years, until five months ago, I was on the payroll of
ESPN magazine, as a consultant and sometime contributor. I was paid
handsomely for doing very little. Same with my stint at Esquire. One
year I spent there, with little to no duties. I wore khakis every day.
Another Might editor and I, for almost a year, contributed to Details
magazine, under pseudonyms, and were paid $2000 each for what never
amounted to more than 10 minutes work - honestly never more than that.
People from Hollywood want to make my book into a movie, and I am
probably going to let them do so, and they will likely pay me a great
deal of money for the privilege.
Do I care about this money? I do. Will I keep this money? Very little
of it. Within the year I will have given away almost a million dollars
to about 100 charities and individuals, benefiting everything from
hospice care to an artist who makes sculptures from Burger King bags.
And the rest will be going into publishing books through McSweeney's.
Would I have been able to publish McSweeney's if I had not worked at
Esquire? Probably not. Where is the $6000 from Forbes going? To a guy
named Joe Polevy, who wants to write a book about the effects of
radiator noise on children in New England.
Now, what if I were keeping all the money? What if I were buying
property in St. Kitt's or blew it all on live-in prostitutes? What if,
for example, I was, a few nights ago, sitting at a table in SoHo with
a bunch of Hollywood slash celebrity acquaintances, one of whom I went
to high school with, and one of whom was Puff Daddy? Would that make
me a sellout? Would that mean I was a force of evil?
What if a few nights before that I was at the home of Julian Schnabel,
at a party featuring Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro, and at which
Schnabel said we should get together to talk about him possibly
directing my movie? And what if I said sure, let's?
Would all that make me a sellout? Would I be uncool? Would it have
been more cool to not go to this party, or to not have written that
book, or done that interview, or to have refused millions from
Hollywood?
The thing is, I really like saying yes. I like new things, projects,
plans, getting people together and doing something, trying something,
even when it's corny or stupid. I am not good at saying no. And I do
not get along with people who say no. When you die, and it really
could be this afternoon, under the same bus wheels I'll stick my head
if need be, you will not be happy about having said no. You will be
kicking your ass about all the no's you've said. No to that
opportunity, or no to that trip to Nova Scotia or no to that night
out, or no to that project or no to that person who wants to be naked
with you but you worry about what your friends will say.
No is for wimps. No is for pussies. No is to live small and
embittered, cherishing the opportunities you missed because they might
have sent the wrong message.
There is a point in one's life when one cares about selling out and
not selling out. One worries whether or not wearing a certain shirt
means that they are behind the curve or ahead of it, or that having
certain music in one's collection means that they are impressive, or
unimpressive.
Thankfully, for some, this all passes. I am here to tell you that I
have, a few years ago, found my way out of that thicket of comparison
and relentless suspicion and judgment. And it is a nice feeling.
Because, in the end, no one will ever give a shit who has kept shit
'real' except the two or three people, sitting in their apartments,
bitter and self-devouring, who take it upon themselves to wonder about
such things. The keeping real of shit matters to some people, but it
does not matter to me. It's fashion, and I don't like fashion, because
fashion does not matter.
What matters is that you do good work. What matters is that you
produce things that are true and will stand. What matters is that the
Flaming Lips's new album is ravishing and I've listened to it a
thousand times already, sometimes for days on end, and it enriches me
and makes me want to save people. What matters is that it will stand
forever, long after any narrow-hearted curmudgeons have forgotten
their appearance on goddamn 90210. What matters is not the perception,
nor the fashion, not who's up and who's down, but what someone has
done and if they meant it. What matters is that you want to see and
make and do, on as grand a scale as you want, regardless of what the
tiny voices of tiny people say. Do not be critics, you people, I beg
you. I was a critic and I wish I could take it all back because it
came from a smelly and ignorant place in me, and spoke with a voice
that was all rage and envy. Do not dismiss a book until you have
written one, and do not dismiss a movie until you have made one, and
do not dismiss a person until you have met them. It is a fuckload of
work to be open-minded and generous and understanding and forgiving
and accepting, but Christ, that is what matters. What matters is
saying yes.
I say yes, and Wayne Coyne says yes, and if that makes us the enemy,
then good, good, good. We are evil people because we want to live and
do things. We are on the wrong side because we should be home,
calculating which move would be the least damaging to our downtown
reputations. But I say yes because I am curious. I want to see things.
I say yes when my high school friend tells me to come out because he's
hanging with Puffy. A real story, that. I say yes when Hollywood says
they'll give me enough money to publish a hundred different books, or
send twenty kids through college. Saying no is so fucking boring.
And if anyone wants to hurt me for that, or dismiss me for that, for
saying yes, I say Oh do it, do it you motherfuckers, finally, finally,
finally.
Charles Thomas
mark....@syntegra.com (ed) wrote:
> This an excerpt from an email interview with the writer David Eggers
> where he reacts to the interviewer suggesting that he has sold out
> with the following reply. The interview itself can be found at the
> link below and is well worth reading (though long so I'm only gonna
> post this excerpt).
>
> http://www.armchairnews.com/freelance/eggers.html
Man.
What can one say except "EXACTLY!".
CT
axtogrind
"ed" <mark....@syntegra.com> wrote in message
news:df2288f5.03082...@posting.google.com...
> brains for. who??
Roger W. Norman
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
how far $20 really goes.
"ed" <mark....@syntegra.com> wrote in message
news:df2288f5.03082...@posting.google.com...
> brains for. who??
Charles Thomas
"Roger W. Norman" <rno...@starpower.net> wrote:
> And you guys gripe because I write long posts.
Roger, I'd never gripe about how long one of your posts is.
Of course, it's easy for me 'cause I usually agree with you...
CT
Bob Olhsson
<geo...@gjhsun.cl.msu.edu> wrote:
>But then Berry Gordy had a musical (at least songwriting) background
>to guide his biz decisions.
He'd also lost his ass starting a jazz record store. He knew
songwriting, retail and artist management and hired top people to work
his radio and music publishing.
At the very least, every artist needs to understand retail or they are
doomed.
--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN 615.385.8051
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
http://www.hyperback.com/olhsson.html
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
Fill X
>doomed.
>
I'm doomed.
P h i l i p
______________________________
"I'm too fucking busy and vice-versa"
- Dorothy Parker
Bob Olhsson
<moth...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I'm doomed.
>
No, you just know enough to know what you don't know!
Blind Joni
>
The starting point of life!!
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637