Professional Audio & Karaoke Machines?
ganttmann
collection of karaoke discs that he plays on his karaoke machine but I
can't rip the tracks into my computer and, even if I could, he needs
the scrolling video to perform the way he's used to. Our current plan
is for him to bring his karaoke machine to the studio and set it up so
he can watch a TV for lyrics while I record his audio on two tracks
and vocals. He tells me that there is a lot of business out there
recording karaoke singers. Without getting into a spitting match
about the merits (or lack of) of karaoke, is there a karaoke machine
with pro audio outputs? Or software for Mac that will let me play
various karaoke formats while making a multi-track recording? I hate
karaoke as much as the next guy but I could certainly use a new income
stream!
I am also having a hard time finding info about karaoke formats. Any
ideas?
Thanks!
gantt
ganttmann
just hate it so much that no one is willing to discuss it?
John Williamson
> Wow! Is there just no real pro karaoke gear out there, or do you guys
> just hate it so much that no one is willing to discuss it?
>
The normal licence here for karaoke backing tracks (The ones with
embedded lyrics, at least) allows only for live performance with the
actual CD being present and used as a backing track. It is possible to
buy backing tracks licenced for recording use, but they're not cheap.
A common, non-proprietary format used for material available on-line is
a MIDI file with embedded lyrics.
For playback of these, use Winamp or similar with the appropriate
plugins, or this:-
http://www.vanbasco.com/karaokeplayer/
Hope this helps.
--
Tciao for Now!
JOhn.
ganttmann
people for their own enjoyment? That is, for free distribution among
friends and family, not for sale.
gantt
On Nov 22, 10:01 am, John Williamson <johnwilliam...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
ganttmann
the end of the file names. I found a freeware app that could play
them a bit, but he claims that there are dozens, maybe hundreds of
songs on each disk and I only saw five files with the ".DAT" suffix.
gantt
On Nov 22, 10:01 am, John Williamson <johnwilliam...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
John Williamson
> So would it be against copyright law to use karaoke tracks to record
> people for their own enjoyment? That is, for free distribution among
> friends and family, not for sale.
>
copy on your MP3 player, even if it's only for your own personal use,
and you have bought and retained the original CD.
The law in the U.S.A. and other countries differs markedly, and you'd
need to have a word with someone who knows your local copyright laws.
Make absolutely certain you don't post anything on any website without
getting a licence, as the Music Industry (tm) has teams scanning the web
for infringements.
As for your other point about .DAT files on DVDs, this extension is used
by many programs for many purposes. It is possible that the songs are
stored in compressed form in the .DAT files, and need to be extracted by
the application or hardware player. They may also be encrypted, needing
a licence key to extract and play.
--
Tciao for Now!
John.
ganttmann
be to find software that'll let me play the stuff on a computer w/ a
monitor in the tracking room and a decent sound card to send audio to
the DAW. All of the karaoke players I've seen seem to be low-end
consumer audio boxes.
On Nov 22, 11:25 am, John Williamson <johnwilliam...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
John Williamson
> Thanks, John! For the technical side of it I think my best bet might
> be to find software that'll let me play the stuff on a computer w/ a
> monitor in the tracking room and a decent sound card to send audio to
> the DAW. All of the karaoke players I've seen seem to be low-end
> consumer audio boxes.
>
a system together, if that's what you want and can afford, and I daresay
there'll be one in your nearest large town, too.
Or Google for Karaoke software for (Whatever platform you use). There
are 714,000 hits for Mac, more for PC. I've already mentioned what I use
on Windows, but that's not a great deal of help if you're a Mac user.
Richard Webb
> Wow! Is there just no real pro karaoke gear out there, or do you
> guys just hate it so much that no one is willing to discuss it?
bOth. I've never seen any pro-audio compatible karaoke
stuff, and I've had to interface with it. ONe reason I"m in the remote truck business, and not the sound reinforcement
or studio business. I dearly hate karaoke. IT drove me
from the sr business in fact.
Regards,
Richard
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| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
Mike Rivers
> So would it be against copyright law to use karaoke tracks to record
> people for their own enjoyment? That is, for free distribution among
> friends and family, not for sale.
Oh, yes, as illegal as it is to copy a CD and give it to your friends and
family for their enjoyment, not for sale. But you're as likely to get
caught,
unless you advertise the service and make a thing of it.
Dave Martin, who used to post here regularly, had a client for several
years for whom he recorded "sound-alikes" for karaoke-like performance.
I suppose you could do the same, but it would cost the client more money
than if you just transferred his own disks.
As far as "professional" players go, I'd look at what Genini has to offer.
Here's one: http://www.geminidj.com/cdx2500g.html
Richard Crowley
>Wow! Is there just no real pro karaoke gear out there,
Karaoke is *amateur* (NOT pro) *by definition*.
Define "pro karaoke gear"?
> or do you guys
> just hate it so much that no one is willing to discuss it?
What exactly do you want to discuss?
Scott Dorsey
These are CD+G disks. I don't know what application is standard for
generating them these days although Sonic used to have an option for
generating them. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the Minnetonka
products could do it as well.
I don't know how you'd play them back on a computer, but again I would
think a google search for CD+G would find a player.
>I am also having a hard time finding info about karaoke formats. Any
>ideas?
There's a colored book for CD+G although I don't recall what it is
offhand.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
ganttmann
real music played in real time by real people - for my living for 22
years. Unfortunately I can't seem to make enough money to support my
family doing that so I'm looking at some alternatives. By "pro
karaoke" gear I mean well built equipment with balanced line level
outputs. Apparently there is no such thing.
Peter Larsen
> I don't think the sarcasm is warranted. I've been recording music -
> real music played in real time by real people - for my living for 22
> years. Unfortunately I can't seem to make enough money to support my
> family doing that so I'm looking at some alternatives. By "pro
> karaoke" gear I mean well built equipment with balanced line level
> outputs. Apparently there is no such thing.
Why does it have to be balanced, are you going to send the signal along 200+
feet of cabling? - it doesn't matter if it is crap el cheapo consumer gear
fit for a bar, todays crap el cheapo consumer gear is rarely sonically
unberable. Frankly I am not aware of any context ever ... except perhaps low
impedance moving coil cartridges ... were balanced in itself was a
requirement for audio quality and I can think of quite a few where it today
just means another layer of mediocre opamps and unpolarized coupling caps.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
Mike Rivers
> Karaoke is *amateur* (NOT pro) *by definition*.
> Define "pro karaoke gear"?
I would define "pro karaoke gear" as the gear purchased or specified by
someone who installs a karaoke
system in a club, or does mobile karaoke shows. Equipment used in
applications where someone makes
money from it, and needs to be robust, reliable, and flexible enough to
suit multiple users, and usually has
an operator who is not the performer other than for purposes of
illustration or to get an audience fired up.
"Amateur karaoke gear" is one of those self-contained boxes with a
speaker, video display, and microphone
jack, or perhaps the equivalent that connects to a TV set or home
theater system. In other words, a device
intended to be used for home entertainment (which may include practice
for karaoke performance).
Laurence Payne
<rcro...@xp7rt.net> wrote:
>Karaoke is *amateur* (NOT pro) *by definition*.
>Define "pro karaoke gear"?
It's arguable that as many people make a living toting a karaoke rig
as do with a "live" PA system.
Laurence Payne
<gant...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I don't think the sarcasm is warranted. I've been recording music -
>real music played in real time by real people - for my living for 22
>years. Unfortunately I can't seem to make enough money to support my
>family doing that so I'm looking at some alternatives. By "pro
>karaoke" gear I mean well built equipment with balanced line level
>outputs. Apparently there is no such thing.
Possibly because there's little need for a balanced line output. There
rarely is, outside very noisy environments.
ganttmann
> ganttmann wrote:
> > I don't think the sarcasm is warranted. I've been recording music -
> > real music played in real time by real people - for my living for 22
> > years. Unfortunately I can't seem to make enough money to support my
> > family doing that so I'm looking at some alternatives. By "pro
> > karaoke" gear I mean well built equipment with balanced line level
> > outputs. Apparently there is no such thing.
>
> Why does it have to be balanced, are you going to send the signal along 200+
> feet of cabling? - it doesn't matter if it is crap el cheapo consumer gear
> fit for a bar, todays crap el cheapo consumer gear is rarely sonically
> unberable. Frankly I am not aware of any context ever ... except perhaps low
> impedance moving coil cartridges ... were balanced in itself was a
> requirement for audio quality and I can think of quite a few where it today
> just means another layer of mediocre opamps and unpolarized coupling caps.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
That's all. I have used my share of unbalanced gear in the studio.
Peter Larsen
> On Nov 23, 5:43 am, "Peter Larsen" <digi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Why does it have to be balanced, are you going to send the signal
>> along 200+ feet of cabling?
> I usually expect "professional" audio gear to have balanced I/O.
> That's all.
As long as you don't think you actually answered my question that answer is
ok with me.
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
Scott Dorsey
>I don't think the sarcasm is warranted. I've been recording music -
>real music played in real time by real people - for my living for 22
>years. Unfortunately I can't seem to make enough money to support my
>family doing that so I'm looking at some alternatives. By "pro
>karaoke" gear I mean well built equipment with balanced line level
>outputs. Apparently there is no such thing.
Not that I know of, although if there is such a thing, Sony will probably
make it and it probably won't be available outside of Japan. All the really
interesting Sony stuff never makes it to the West.
In the meantime, though, we have bump boxes and transformer boxes.
Laurence Payne
>>I don't think the sarcasm is warranted. I've been recording music -
>>real music played in real time by real people - for my living for 22
>>years. Unfortunately I can't seem to make enough money to support my
>>family doing that so I'm looking at some alternatives. By "pro
>>karaoke" gear I mean well built equipment with balanced line level
>>outputs. Apparently there is no such thing.
>
>Not that I know of, although if there is such a thing, Sony will probably
>make it and it probably won't be available outside of Japan. All the really
>interesting Sony stuff never makes it to the West.
Tarting up a karaoke with Line Outs needed nowhere except an old TV
studio is hardly interesting :-) Tell us about some of the really
interesting concepts we never got to see?
Richard Webb
>> Karaoke is *amateur* (NOT pro) *by definition*.
>> Define "pro karaoke gear"?
> I would define "pro karaoke gear" as the gear purchased or specified
> by someone who installs a karaoke
> system in a club, or does mobile karaoke shows. Equipment used in
> applications where someone makes
> money from it, and needs to be robust, reliable, and flexible enough
> to suit multiple users, and usually has
> an operator who is not the performer other than for purposes of
> illustration or to get an audience fired up.
YEs, and most of this I've seen is unbalanced connections,
etc. EVen when used in mobile karaoke applications most
folks aren't connecting it to a snake etc. They're running
it with its attendant mixing console, etc. right up there on the stage.
Gantman might wish to just use a couple of passive di boxes
and call it good, let the "performer" control his own
karaoke. Get 'em in, get 'em out, churn and burn. Another
analog to digital conversion step and any other attendant
problems aren't going to be noticed by this audience anyway. Ground lifts on your di boxes handle ground loop issues if
they're a problem. Plug 'em in, feed two tracks of
multi-track with the "talent's" music bed, a mic for said
"talent' roll tape, burn a cd or two for MR. amateur hour,
collect your little bit of dough and send him down the road, another ssatisfied customer that will tell everybody at the
next beer joint where he does his thing how cool his
experience was at the pro studio.
I worked at a facility which did some of these folks in IOwa and it was good to keep it simple. These were not fun
sessions. THere we were capturing the music bed to two
tracks of multi-track, and hardcopy lyrics cheat sheets for
the so-called talent.
Make it easier, maximize your investment by investing as
little time as possible. Unless they show up drunk they're
never quite as good as they think they are even to
themselves, so keep it simple, get 'em in, get 'em out,
collect their dough.
And, don't touch the suck button, the talent can do that
readily enough.
All I can say to gant is:
"glad it's you and not me."
Richard Crowley
> I would define "pro karaoke gear" as the gear purchased or specified by
> someone who installs a karaoke
> system in a club, or does mobile karaoke shows. Equipment used in
> applications where someone makes
> money from it, and needs to be robust, reliable, and flexible enough to
> suit multiple users, and usually has
> an operator who is not the performer other than for purposes of
> illustration or to get an audience fired up.
> "Amateur karaoke gear" is one of those self-contained boxes with a
> speaker, video display, and microphone
> jack, or perhaps the equivalent that connects to a TV set or home theater
> system. In other words, a device
> intended to be used for home entertainment (which may include practice for
> karaoke performance).
I would refer to those classes as "MI" (like guitar amps, etc.), and
"home entertainment" respectively.
But the OP seems to think that there is some third level of equipment
that is built for recording studio (vs. live pub) use. I don't know that
it exists. I suspect that people who are running "karaoke recording
studios" are using the same equipment designed and installed in bars
and pubs for live public "amusement".
Do copyright owners of these trax make them licensable for fees
that make karaoke recording studios feasable? Or are the studios
just running under the radar?
Richard Crowley
> There's a colored book for CD+G although I don't recall what it is
> offhand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Book_specification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD%2BG (CD+Graphics)
http://www.opentutorial.com/Rip_a_karaoke_cd
Richard Webb
> I would refer to those classes as "MI" (like guitar amps, etc.), and
> "home entertainment" respectively.
I would tend more toward your definition Richard.
> But the OP seems to think that there is some third level of
> equipment that is built for recording studio (vs. live pub) use. I
> don't know that it exists. I suspect that people who are running
> "karaoke recording studios" are using the same equipment designed
> and installed in bars and pubs for live public "amusement".
I would say if they're really doing a lot of that work
that's what they're doing. AS I said, I did a couple of
things for an employer's studio like htat, don't know how
many he may have done, he knew I basically held my nose and
made sure I "punched the clock" or I wouldn't be anywhere
around it.
> Do copyright owners of these trax make them licensable for fees that
> make karaoke recording studios feasable? Or are the studios just
> running under the radar?
I'd say most are running under the radar. MOst of this
stuff isn't going to be heard by anybody that matters, and
the rights owners aren't losing that much revenue to some
guy playing his music minus talent cd for a couple of family members and friends.
IF you look at the market this aims for and the prices it
can charge to be feasible you can be assured there isn't
anything like licensing going on. tHis is $15/hour project
studio type fare at its best. My boss charged more, and
he'd get the occasional music minus one act wanted to record a couple of songs.
We got more of the singer/songwriter without any arrangement and we'd set up backing tracks, midi at first, replaced by
live drummer, etc. if the budget allowed, voice over work,
commercials, jingles to final production of radio spots, and when the season was right the prospective student sending
off audition tapes to the music schools and conservatories.
I could handle all of those, but when he got the "I'm from
the karaoke joint ... " sessions I think he usually handled them himself to keep me from obviously holding my nose and making gagging noises through the talkback <g>. <tongue in cheek of course>
I can only recall working two of them, one this dude singing Huey Lewis and other eighties pop stuff, and another a
chick. Neither one were very good, and I made them pay us
for a three hour block of time each. They both wanted to do more "fixing" of their vocal tracks, but I told them I
couldn't do any more on it that day as another client was
booked later on that afternoon, but they should call back
later and reschedule when the boss was in. But, I explained that "fixing" a couple of places was going to cost them at
least another 2 hour block of time, because we didn't book
in any smaller increments, unless they arranged something
with the boss. I think he did the patch up sessions for
both. All I know is he never asked me to work another
karaoke world sesion. Suited me just fine.
Otoh he could get me to sit through the foundation tracking
session for the demo of the loud metal band, which he
couldn't take very well, so it all worked out. I was also
the guy got to crawl in the crawlspace under the floor when
we ran snakes from the patchbay to the big rack where we
moved some equipment later on. HE was took big to fit down
there comfortably <g>.
Mike Rivers
> I would refer to those classes as "MI" (like guitar amps, etc.), and
> "home entertainment" respectively.
Labels are labels. Whatever helps you to understand what I'm talking
about is
OK with me.
> But the OP seems to think that there is some third level of equipment
> that is built for recording studio (vs. live pub) use.
I don't see any reason for such equipment to exist as karaoke equipment,
but as Scott has pointed out there are CD players that play the audio and
video on a karaoke disk, and there are "studio" CD players. Marantz, TASCAM
and Sony would be the places to look.
> I suspect that people who are running "karaoke recording
> studios" are using the same equipment designed and installed in bars
> and pubs for live public "amusement".
That would certainly be reasonable. It's more of a novelty thing than
a studio thing. And while balanced outputs may be common these days
with studio gear, they're not a requirement for most installations. "Pro"
output levels may be, in order to interface properly with A/D converters
for recording, but that's correctable (along with the balanced outputs)
with a box.
> Do copyright owners of these trax make them licensable for fees
> that make karaoke recording studios feasable? Or are the studios
> just running under the radar?
Some of each, I suppose. Dave Martin, who used to post regularly here,
had a long term client for a while for whom he recorded sound-alikes for
performance. It worked out better to get musicians into the studio, work
out,
and play the popular arrangements than to get pre-recorded backing
tracks. It could be that they wanted the flexibility to have music-minus
whatever they wanted, or it could have been about licensing of someone
else's performance. In Nashville where he is, it was just a day's work.
ganttmann
I was out of town and off-line all last week so I had some catching up
to do here!
I did not answer your question. The signal will not be going down 200
feet of cable. On the other hand no other signal in my room has to go
down 200 feet of cable and yet I have racks full of gear w/ balanced,
+4dB I/O. It's what I usually (although not always) expect of
"professional" studio gear. That's all.
I still don't think the sarcasm was warranted. I dislike karaoke in
principle and in practice. However, the studio's been slow for a long
time and we need the money. The discussions about copyright issues
are interesting and important. The remarks about the validity (or
lack thereof) and sadness of karaoke are less so. I've done plenty of
work that I'm proud of and plenty of which I'm not. I can live with
that if it feeds my family.
Regarding copyright - who's responsible for keeping it legal; me or
the owner of the karaoke disks?
Thanks,
gantt
Richard Crowley
> I still don't think the sarcasm was warranted. I dislike karaoke in
> principle and in practice.
People who dislike sarcasm should probably avoid Usenet.
> Regarding copyright - who's responsible for keeping it legal; me or
> the owner of the karaoke disks?
Many people with that business model end up in prison.
ganttmann
pretty simple question - Is there karaoke gear with balanced +4 dB
outputs? - The answer seems to be no. I get it. No problem.
Regarding copyright - If someone wants to record their voice with a
karaoke track on a disk (that they own) for very limited free
distribution among friends and family am I breaking the law by
recording it in my studio?
Thanks,
Gantt
Mike Rivers
> People who dislike sarcasm should probably avoid Usenet.
So should people who use sarcasm as humor without making it clear that
it's such.
As should people who use sarcasm simply to be spiteful without
contributing anything
to the discussion except their disdain for the discussion.
Mike Rivers
> Regarding copyright - If someone wants to record their voice with a
> karaoke track on a disk (that they own) for very limited free
> distribution among friends and family am I breaking the law by
> recording it in my studio?
Technically, yes, you'd be abusing the mechanical copyright. You may
also be abusing the music copyright, though I believe that it would be
the one for whom you're doing the recording who would be guilt of that
since it would be him, not you, who would be doing the unauthorized
distribution.
However, like so many things like this, it's highly unlikely that either of
you would be caught, so the risk is low.
Scott Dorsey
>ganttmann wrote:
>
>> Regarding copyright - If someone wants to record their voice with a
>> karaoke track on a disk (that they own) for very limited free
>> distribution among friends and family am I breaking the law by
>> recording it in my studio?
>
>Technically, yes, you'd be abusing the mechanical copyright. You may
>also be abusing the music copyright, though I believe that it would be
>the one for whom you're doing the recording who would be guilt of that
>since it would be him, not you, who would be doing the unauthorized
>distribution.
You can make the argument that this is acceptable under fair use
provisions. How effective that argument would be depends on how good
your team of lawyers is.
Richard Webb
> Regarding copyright - If someone wants to record their voice with a
> karaoke track on a disk (that they own) for very limited free
> distribution among friends and family am I breaking the law by
> recording it in my studio?
AS I told you, for where it's going and what the client will be doing with it I wouldn't worry. The studio I worked for
I referenced in an earlier post on this subject didn't I
know. IF you recall, i told you that I didn't do a lot of
this work myself, as I found it nearly intolerable, except
for blowing the stereo karaoke audio track to a pair on the
multi-track. BUt, otoh my boss didn't enjoy the metalheads, etc. so I got their foundation tracking sessions.
YOu find both of us Richards to be rather sarcastic at
times, and not very respectful of karaoke in my case. hEck, if you can get a bit of that work, and you can keep from
needing a barf bucket handy, go for it.
AS MIke Rivers told you, its' the client that caused the law to be violated, not you, but he's probably not going to be
doing anything but giving a few copies away to friends which they'll listen to once or twice. My boss did some of those
folks just to have some paying work for a couple hours here
and there, and was there at the studio to answer the phone
and do some maintenance anyway. HE could sandwich pieces of the karaoke kid's project between doing his own voice-over
work, etc.
ganttmann
Gantt
On Dec 6, 4:48 pm, Richard.Webb.my.f...@116-901.ftn.wpusa.dynip.com