best reel tape?
DS
Pioneer RT-909 back into action but haven't bought a tape since 1979. Have a
bunch of old ones but I'm sure they'd be bad news for the deck.
Thanks in advance.
DS
Richard Crowley
Do people even have a choice these days? About a year
ago there were NO manufacturers of reel-to-reel audio
tape. Then Quantegy got bailed out of bankruptcy, but
are there any others?
will
DL
William Sommerwerck
supply the proper bias.
Scott Dorsey
That machine requires JIS standard tape, I believe, which has not been
manufactured since Maxell dropped production a few years ago.
I do not think you can align it to work with any of the Quantegy tapes.
You might try a reel of Quantegy 406 and see if you can get the bias to
line up, but I think you'll find the bias control has very limited range
because it's intended only for use with one tape formulation.
If you find new old stock Maxell UD, it should be fine if it was stored
properly. Maxell kept using the whale oil binders and did not go over
to urethanes in the seventies, so that tape does not have sticky shed
problems.
The Japanese consumer electronics folks decided it would be easier to
set the tape formulation to match the decks rather than the other way
around. This resulted in a lot of machines that could not be aligned
for anything other than the Japanese consumer tapes, many of which
actually had no alignment controls at all.
It is probably possible to modify the Pioneer for full level and bias
control inside. Emphasis controls might be pushing it. It's a lot of
work for a consumer deck, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Laurence Payne
How many brands can you find on sale? Hint - the answer may be close
to "one" :-)
Further hint - can you suggest WHY there's no market for tape any
more?
Scott Dorsey
>
>Do people even have a choice these days? About a year
>ago there were NO manufacturers of reel-to-reel audio
>tape. Then Quantegy got bailed out of bankruptcy, but
>are there any others?
RMGI is shipping tape in small quantities. Zonal is shipping huge amounts
of cheap red oxide tapes to the third world but they haven't got their
backlog filled up enough to be able to ship to the US yet. (And of course
the US market wants a very different product).
ATR Magnetics is not shipping yet and we are all tapping our toes waiting
on them.
NONE of these companies make tapes that will work on a machine that requires
JIS tapes, though.
Laurence Payne
> haven't bought a tape since 1979. Have a
>bunch of old ones but I'm sure they'd be bad news for the deck.
Why?
Scott Dorsey
>Quantegy and Emtec. Try google for blank professional audio tape.
Emtec hasn't been around for several years now. They collapsed a few years
after building a brand new facility, mostly for reasons not related to the
tape market.
SOME of the Emtec production line and all of the Emtec formulations are now
the property of RMGI in Holland, which is slowly getting up to running with
the older Emtec tape types.
Mr. Tapeguy
before long but you'll have a hard time finding it right now.
Mr. Tapeguy
There is a diminished market for tape because most audio recording is
done via computer interface such as Pro Tools. There are a number of
analog afficianados left but not nearly enough to justify large amounts
of tape manufacturing as existed when tape was the primary medium for
recording. It won't be long before video goes the same way.
Soon to be "mr.no-tapeguy"...
Mr. Tapeguy
Quantegy tapes to people with consumer decks for years because there
simply were not other options. 406 is a good start - we also have a
bunch of 031, basically downgraded 400 series tape which didn't quite
meet spec and is on 7" reels packed in generic white boxes.
Inexpensive if you're experiementing.
cb
Marc Wielage
> If you find new old stock Maxell UD, it should be fine if it was stored
> properly. Maxell kept using the whale oil binders and did not go over
> to urethanes in the seventies, so that tape does not have sticky shed
> problems.
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<
The TDK Audua open reel line was similar. I thought it sounded absolutely
dynamite, and was even better than the Maxell UD (or UDXL/II) in terms of
dropouts. I've checked some of my 30 year-old 1/4" Audua tapes in recent
years, and they held up just fine.
--MFW
Scott Dorsey
>On Apr 7, 2006, Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> commented:
>
>> If you find new old stock Maxell UD, it should be fine if it was stored
>> properly. Maxell kept using the whale oil binders and did not go over
>> to urethanes in the seventies, so that tape does not have sticky shed
>> problems.
>
>dynamite, and was even better than the Maxell UD (or UDXL/II) in terms of
>dropouts. I've checked some of my 30 year-old 1/4" Audua tapes in recent
>years, and they held up just fine.
Yes. Sony, Mitsubishi, Memorex, and lots of other folks made JIS tapes
back in the seventies.
mc
news:e15prk$27h$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> The Japanese consumer electronics folks decided it would be easier to
> set the tape formulation to match the decks rather than the other way
> around. This resulted in a lot of machines that could not be aligned
> for anything other than the Japanese consumer tapes, many of which
> actually had no alignment controls at all.
By alignment I gather you mean bias. Standardizing the tapes was a *great*
idea; I regret that it didn't catch on everywhere. It's analogous to the
standardization of development for color negative film; all the color
negative film in the world (Kodak, Fuji, Konica, Agfa) uses the same
chemicals, temperatures, and times. This was never done for black-and-white
film, though some people proposed it.
William Sommerwerck
> was a *great* idea; I regret that it didn't catch on everywhere.
Great in what way? It makes it difficult to introduce higher-coercivity
tapes.
About 15 years ago, 3M introduced an ultra-high-coercivity open-reel tape
you could hit with at least 10dB more signal before it distorted. I set up a
ReVox for -- there was just barely enough bias range to do it. I reset the
meters to read 10dB lower, so the user would be sure to take advantage of
what the tape offered.
> It's analogous to the standardization of development for color
> negative film; all the color negative film in the world (Kodak,
> Fuji, Konica, Agfa) uses the same chemicals, temperatures,
> and times.
This is also true for Ektachrome-type (integral dye-coupler) reversal
(slide) films -- all use processing compatible with Kodak's Ektachrome E-6
(I think that's correct). Color negative is Kodacolor C-22.
> This was never done for black-and-white film,
> though some people proposed it.
Not much point, as there is no substantial consumer market for B&W
photofinishing.
Harry Lavo
"Marc Wielage" <m...@musictrax.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C05D93CB...@news.giganews.com...
BASF tape was sold not only in sealed plastic, but sealed plastic within
plastic boxes, in turn overwrapped. I've opened some NOS that plays/sounds
as new. It was one of my favorties back when.
DS
"William Sommerwerck" <gizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:DMWdnYNzhbldzKvZ...@comcast.com...
> Warning... Don't buy a lot of tape until you've confirmed your deck can
> supply the proper bias.
>
>
buttons like this:
Bias -------EQ
1 1
2 2
(button) (button)
Meaning their always in one or the other state, I guess.
I remember now that in using them it seemed to dampen the recording. I'm
sure it was doing what it was supposed to do but I just wasn't using them
using them correctly. I'm re-purchasing the user and tech manuals now. Maybe
they'll refer to best tape types and how to correctly use the Bias. I went
ahead and ordered one Quantegy tape for testing.
Any Pioneer RT909 owners out there know the proper use of these buttons
off-hand?
Thanks
DS
DS
Yup. Maxell UD is exactly what they are. I must have 50 of them. But they've
just been in a sealed shipping box for 25 years. I sure would like to fire
them up, but too afraid of doing damage to the deck. Lots of Floyd, Led Zep,
Quicksilver, ELP, Janis, Jimi, Monterrey Jazz, Woodstock stuff on them.
I've got a head demagnetizer and plenty of head cleaning fluid. Am I too
worried about playing these old tapes?
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e19sdl$d0g$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Scott Dorsey
>> set the tape formulation to match the decks rather than the other way
>> around. This resulted in a lot of machines that could not be aligned
>> for anything other than the Japanese consumer tapes, many of which
>> actually had no alignment controls at all.
>
>By alignment I gather you mean bias.
Not JUST bias. Also operating level and equalization. The idea being
that you can drop any JIS tape into any machine requiring JIS tape and
do NO electrical alignment of any sort.
>Standardizing the tapes was a *great*
>idea; I regret that it didn't catch on everywhere. It's analogous to the
>standardization of development for color negative film; all the color
>negative film in the world (Kodak, Fuji, Konica, Agfa) uses the same
>chemicals, temperatures, and times. This was never done for black-and-white
>film, though some people proposed it.
I don't think it was all that great, because there were still variations
between tape formulations.... it's just that people ignored them. The
tolerances had to be pretty wide because no two manufacturers could hit
the curve in just the same way. On top of that, it stifled innovation...
the Japanese took a long time to come out with higher output tapes, and
when they did they had to create a whole new family of machines to use
them. Whereas if you bought an Ampex 440 in the days when 641 was a
"high output" tape, you can still run 456 on it today because there is plenty
of room in the adjustments for different tape types.
And I _miss_ the great pastel look of Agfachrome.
William Sommerwerck
That's funny, because I always found it excessively saturated.
Scott Dorsey
>My RT 909 has Bias and EQ selectors sort of linked together above the
>buttons like this:
> Bias -------EQ
> 1 1
> 2 2
>(button) (button)
>
>Meaning their always in one or the other state, I guess.
Right. These select WHICH of the two bias controls inside the box is
in use.
>I remember now that in using them it seemed to dampen the recording. I'm
>sure it was doing what it was supposed to do but I just wasn't using them
>using them correctly. I'm re-purchasing the user and tech manuals now. Maybe
>they'll refer to best tape types and how to correctly use the Bias. I went
>ahead and ordered one Quantegy tape for testing.
The tape machine should have bias, EQ, and level controls inside, which
allow you to set up the record and playback alignment. As I recall, the
controls on this machine are a pain to get to, and they don't have a lot
of range (since they are intended for JIS tapes only). The switches on
the front panel select which of the two settings to use.
Because this is a machine intended for the consumer market, they don't trust
you with the actual setup controls. They are locked away for the service man
to touch. And they don't have a whole lot of range, specifically so the
service guy can't screw things up too much.
You will need a scope, a signal, generator, and the reference tape from
MRL to do the full alignment. The basic procedure is detailed in the FAQ
to this group although you should know that there are a bunch of settings
listed that you won't have on the Pioneer (like low end record EQ).
Scott Dorsey
>Yup. Maxell UD is exactly what they are. I must have 50 of them. But they've
>just been in a sealed shipping box for 25 years. I sure would like to fire
>them up, but too afraid of doing damage to the deck. Lots of Floyd, Led Zep,
>Quicksilver, ELP, Janis, Jimi, Monterrey Jazz, Woodstock stuff on them.
>I've got a head demagnetizer and plenty of head cleaning fluid. Am I too
>worried about playing these old tapes?
No, why would you be?
I have a tape here from 1936. It plays back fine. Sheds quite a lot, though.
Scott Dorsey
>I'm doing some transcription work now for a guy who gave me 30 odd boxes of
>R2R tape circa mid 70's to mid 80's. The brands vary from Maxell UD/UDXL,
>Scotch Master XS, TDK GX, Ampex Grandmaster and even a few Realistic
>Concertape and Supertape.
Grandmaster could be any one of a number of Ampex tapes. Probably 641,
though. But Ampex sold a bunch of formulations under the same name.
Realistic tapes can either be from their own factory in Texas, then later
on from their factory in Korea... and then at the very end (I think after
1992) they were rebadging Ampex tapes.
>Ampex Grandmaster shedding, and flaking at the same time. By far the worst.
You might consider a little silicone lube in the tape path. Either use
Pelon fabric from the local fabric store, and fast-forward and rewind the
tape across it, or try the LAST Tape Head Treatment. I think the LAST
stuff is rebadged GE Silicones part SPF 1202 but won't guarantee it.
>I have found that with a tape that is fine, a good cleaning of the
>transport is all that is needed for a proper transcription.
>With a tape that squeals I have devised a method of placing an alcohol
>soaked FOAM swab (not a Q-tip) wedged right before the left side of the
>headstack and just slightly touching the tape works very well. At the
>slightest hint of squeal, or sooner, I replenish the swab by dripping more
>alcohol on it with an eyedropper.
If the squeal is caused by lack of lubrication, this will fix it temporarily
but will make it worse over the long term. The silicone lube will fix it
much more permanently.
None of the tapes you list are backcoated and so none of them should have
sticky shed. But that's a squeal of another different kind.
>The trick is to not use too much fluid.
>I also tried the same trick with some very light silicon oil but all it did
>was make a mess.
What kind? You need to use a very tiny amount, and the stuff you need to use
very, very light, like mold release compound light.
Paul Stamler
> mc <lo...@www.ai.uga.edu.for.address> wrote:
> And I _miss_ the great pastel look of Agfachrome.
Pastel? Agfachrome?? That stuff had the most super-vivid color of anything
out there. You might be thinking of Agfacolor negative film; that was indeed
pastel.
Oh, and to Bill S.: The color-negative standard changed from C-22 to C-44
sometime in the late '60s - early '70s.
Peace,
Paul
William Sommerwerck
> sometime in the late '60s - early '70s.
Ah'm gittn' old...
>> And I _miss_ the great pastel look of Agfachrome.
The only Agfacolor I've ever seen was from a roll of Minox pictures I took.
Really Weird color.
Scott Dorsey
>"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:e1b56c$3ef$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>> mc <lo...@www.ai.uga.edu.for.address> wrote:
>
>> And I _miss_ the great pastel look of Agfachrome.
>
>Pastel? Agfachrome?? That stuff had the most super-vivid color of anything
>out there. You might be thinking of Agfacolor negative film; that was indeed
>pastel.
I'm thinking of the Agfachrome reversal movie films... I gather the still
slide films were not the same? The movie stuff could be saturated, but it
could also be very delicate and muted. Wonderful stuff.
>Oh, and to Bill S.: The color-negative standard changed from C-22 to C-44
>sometime in the late '60s - early '70s.
Thank God. I remember doing C-22 sheet film in trays, with the formaldehyde
stabilizer bath. You could smell it in my hair days later.
Chris Hornbeck
<pstaml...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Oh, and to Bill S.: The color-negative standard changed from C-22 to C-44
>sometime in the late '60s - early '70s.
When did C41 come into play?
Thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck
Paul Stamler
news:hhdj32pjur17dbn12...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 17:20:44 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
> <pstaml...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >Oh, and to Bill S.: The color-negative standard changed from C-22 to C-44
> >sometime in the late '60s - early '70s.
>
> When did C41 come into play?
Sorry, finger glitch -- make that C-41, not C-44. And it turns out to have
been 1977, a little later than I thought.
Peace,
Paul