Playback - mono tape from 1965
Ken Winokur
question about formats and compatibility of tape decks.
The 1/4" tapes seem to be recorded mono, with the tape being flipped
at the end to record a 2nd track. I figured this out when I played
them back on a quarter track stereo player (is that the correct
term?). This tape recorder, a Sony TC-366, (not the one which made
the original tapes) records stripe 1 & 3 on the tape, and then when
flipped, records the other two stripes.
When I played back the old tapes I have on this stereo tape deck, the
left track was forward and the right was backwards. So, I am assuming
that the tapes were recorded mono, on different "sides" of the tape.
I have a couple of decks I can get to play the tapes back - a stereo
Nagra, and a regular 2 track (stereo) mastering deck. Is it likely
that these tapes will play back correctly on either of these decks?
Laurence Payne
What's wrong with the recording you make from just the L output of the
Sony machine?
Ken Winokur
The sound, played back on the Sony TC-366, is quite "muffled". It's
missing all the high end information. I'm guessing that the tape was
originally made with a Wollensak or something similar, and probably
some cheap crystal mic. It shouldn't sound like this. It was
recorded by a non-professional. It was clearly made on a portable
recorder (it was recorded in various locations), and not in some
studio.
I am guessing that by not playing back the entire track, I am missing
some of the information. I could eq it and get it to sound better,
but this is for use in a documentary film, and I would like it to
sound as good as possible. Of course it could be a problem of
radically mis-alligned heads on either the recording deck or the Sony
TC366.
Logic would lead me to believe that the stereo Nagra, and a regular 2
track mastering deck should have more or less the same playback as an
old mono tape recorder. Is this true?
Scott Dorsey
>I need to digitize a pile of tapes made in 1965 and 1966. I have a
>question about formats and compatibility of tape decks.
>
>The 1/4" tapes seem to be recorded mono, with the tape being flipped
>at the end to record a 2nd track. I figured this out when I played
>them back on a quarter track stereo player (is that the correct
>term?). This tape recorder, a Sony TC-366, (not the one which made
>the original tapes) records stripe 1 & 3 on the tape, and then when
>flipped, records the other two stripes.
If it was made in 1965, it wasn't quarter track. What you have is
a half-track mono tape. It can be played back on a half-track stereo
machine but not a "european stereo" machine.
>When I played back the old tapes I have on this stereo tape deck, the
>left track was forward and the right was backwards. So, I am assuming
>that the tapes were recorded mono, on different "sides" of the tape.
Most likely. Half-track mono was not an unusual format at the time
for consumer stuff where people wanted to save tape and didn't expect
to need to exit.
>I have a couple of decks I can get to play the tapes back - a stereo
>Nagra, and a regular 2 track (stereo) mastering deck. Is it likely
>that these tapes will play back correctly on either of these decks?
It should be fine on either of them, if the machine will play back at
the correct speed and with the correct EQ curve. If the tape was made
in the US you can probably assume it was done with NAB EQ.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Scott Dorsey
>> What's wrong with the recording you make from just the L output of the
>> Sony machine?
>
>The sound, played back on the Sony TC-366, is quite "muffled". It's
>missing all the high end information. I'm guessing that the tape was
>originally made with a Wollensak or something similar, and probably
>some cheap crystal mic. It shouldn't sound like this. It was
>recorded by a non-professional. It was clearly made on a portable
>recorder (it was recorded in various locations), and not in some
>studio.
If you play back a half-track tape on a quarter-track machine, you will
get some weirdness. But if it is very muffled, it's likely to have an
azimuth issue.
> I am guessing that by not playing back the entire track, I am missing
>some of the information. I could eq it and get it to sound better,
>but this is for use in a documentary film, and I would like it to
>sound as good as possible. Of course it could be a problem of
>radically mis-alligned heads on either the recording deck or the Sony
>TC366.
When you play the thing back, adjust the azimuth by ear for the most
high end possible. You can't do it with a scope since you have only
one track to work with. Then adjust the playback eq controls by ear
as well.
Be sure to readjust the playback alignment settings against the MRL tape
after doing this.
>Logic would lead me to believe that the stereo Nagra, and a regular 2
>track mastering deck should have more or less the same playback as an
>old mono tape recorder. Is this true?
Depends what heads are on the Nagra, but if it has the 2-track heads
you will be fine. If it has timecode or pilot, it has the 2-track heads.
Ken Winokur
Thanks Scott, Yes it was made in the US. Is the stereo Nagra a
"European" machine, with a different curve? That's the easiest deck
for me to borrow to work with.
The quarter track description is referring to the tape deck I had on
hand to check the tapes (the Sony TC 366). As I recall, that came out
a few years later. I had the two track version of the Sony in high
school, around 1970.
I've never said this before. I wish I still had my Otari 2 track. I
sold it off to buy my first digital system about 12 years ago - Tascam
DA88 - and haven't looked back.
Arny Krueger
news:b81a09e8-c831-4266...@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com
> I need to digitize a pile of tapes made in 1965 and 1966.
> I have a question about formats and compatibility of tape
> decks.
> The 1/4" tapes seem to be recorded mono, with the tape
> being flipped at the end to record a 2nd track. I
> figured this out when I played them back on a quarter
> track stereo player (is that the correct term?). This
> tape recorder, a Sony TC-366, (not the one which made the
> original tapes) records stripe 1 & 3 on the tape, and
> then when flipped, records the other two stripes.
> When I played back the old tapes I have on this stereo
> tape deck, the left track was forward and the right was
> backwards. So, I am assuming that the tapes were
> recorded mono, on different "sides" of the tape.
I've encountered tapes, even commercial like these, and the boxes the tapes
came in indicated that they were half track mono.
> I have a couple of decks I can get to play the tapes back
> - a stereo Nagra, and a regular 2 track (stereo)
> mastering deck. Is it likely that these tapes will play
> back correctly on either of these decks?
The left channel of your existing Sony TC 366 player may provide you with a
fairly useful representqation of the contents of the tape.
You could even transcribe the whole tape in one pass, and digitally reverse
the track that is playing backwards.
I was once a user of a Sony TC 366 (and owner of the predecessor TC 355) and
that's how it worked under these conditions.
Using one head of a 4 track player is a bit suboptimal because the tracks on
a so-called 4 track head may not have an ideal alignment with the 2 tracks
on the tape. If memory serves the 2 tracks are narrower than half the
physical tape, and the margins might fall under the playback gap on a 1/4
track head. Furthermore there is a theoretical loss of dynamic range due to
the portion of the track that does not fall under any head gap when played
this way.
Scott Dorsey
>
>Thanks Scott, Yes it was made in the US. Is the stereo Nagra a
>"European" machine, with a different curve? That's the easiest deck
>for me to borrow to work with.
Some Nagra models have both IEC and NAB equalization, some have just
one or the other. Some were shipped with half-track heads, others
with European stereo heads. If they have pilot or timecode, they
don't have European stereo.
The European stereo heads have a reduced guard band between tracks,
so there is a lot more crosstalk between channels. This is fine when
recording stereo (and it gives you a little better S/N because of the
slightly wider track) but it's not good for playing back tapes with
two uncorrelated signals on them.
>I've never said this before. I wish I still had my Otari 2 track. I
>sold it off to buy my first digital system about 12 years ago - Tascam
>DA88 - and haven't looked back.
You can buy another one. They aren't that expensive. And they sound nice.
Mike Rivers
>>> The 1/4" tapes seem to be recorded mono, with the tape being flipped
>>> at the end to record a 2nd track. I figured this out when I played
>>> them back on a quarter track stereo player (is that the correct
>>> term?).
Yes, that's that's the correct way to describe your playback deck, but
it's not the optimum head configuration for the tape. The tape is what's
called "half track mono."
>>> I have a couple of decks I can get to play the tapes back - a stereo
>>> Nagra, and a regular 2 track (stereo) mastering deck. Is it likely
>>> that these tapes will play back correctly on either of these decks?
The stereo Nagra and probably the stereo "mastering" deck are likely
2-track stereo. You'll get one track forward and the other one backward
out of the two channels, but the head width (and surely the quality of the
heads and electronics) is better than your Sony TC-366. I'd use one of those
and just take the output from the left channel.
You could save yourself a little time (but surely not half) by recording the
second track backwards and then reversing it in your software, but you
can do a better job if you do it one pass at a time (flip the tape over and
play it back through the same channel) and touch up the azimuth before
each pass. You might also need to clean the head after a pass, or more
often if the tape is in bad shape.
> The sound, played back on the Sony TC-366, is quite "muffled". It's
> missing all the high end information.
That's probably a matter of azimuth misalignment, or a worn or dirty
head. Or maybe the tapes are just recorded poorly. But you might as
well give it a try with a better matched playback deck.
> I'm guessing that the tape was
> originally made with a Wollensak or something similar, and probably
> some cheap crystal mic. It shouldn't sound like this. It was
> recorded by a non-professional.
Don't overestimate the quality of a recording made by a non-professional
with a portable home recorder, using a crystal mic. You could try giving
the TC-366 head a good scrubbing and fiddle with the azimuth to see if
you can improve the playback.
> I am guessing that by not playing back the entire track, I am missing
> some of the information.
There are a few problems with mismatched track/head widths and definitely
with azimuth misalignment. I wouldn't call it "missing some information"
but that doesn't matter.
> I could eq it and get it to sound better,
> but this is for use in a documentary film, and I would like it to
> sound as good as possible.
This is why you should try to optimize the playback right out of the tape
deck, then play with it to see if you can improve it. You can't put back
something that isn't there by using EQ, so if the high end is missing
because
of misalignment (or if it wasn't recorded in the first place) you can't
get it
back with EQ. You'll only boost the noise.
> Of course it could be a problem of
> radically mis-alligned heads on either the recording deck or the Sony
> TC366.
There isn't anything you can do about the recording deck, but you can
certainly try to match the azimuth with the adjustment on the Sony.
> Logic would lead me to believe that the stereo Nagra, and a regular 2
> track mastering deck should have more or less the same playback as an
> old mono tape recorder. Is this true?
Really, it's probably better, and that's a good thing. Use the best deck
you
have available, which is probably the Nagra, if it's in good condition.
You'll
need a special tool to adjust the azimuth, though. Hopefully whoever you get
the recorder from will have the tool.
Just so some smartass doesn't correct me, I know that the mono (full
track, Nagra III)
needs a special wrench to adjust the head alignment. It's like a gear on
the end of a
screwdriver. I can't remember clearly if the stereo Nagra (IV-S) has the
same
head mounting arrangement. It would make sense if it did. So look before
you
borrow, and ask if necessary.
Laurence Payne
<all...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> What's wrong with the recording you make from just the L output of the
>> Sony machine?
>
>The sound, played back on the Sony TC-366, is quite "muffled". It's
>missing all the high end information. I'm guessing that the tape was
>originally made with a Wollensak or something similar, and probably
>some cheap crystal mic. It shouldn't sound like this. It was
>recorded by a non-professional. It was clearly made on a portable
>recorder (it was recorded in various locations), and not in some
>studio.
That could be more about head alignment than about not reading the
full track width.
If other machines are easily available, obviously try them. If not,
and you're confident you can put things back where they started, I'd
play with head alignment (including height) on the Sony.
Adrian Tuddenham
> The sound, played back on the Sony TC-366, is quite "muffled".
Have you got the oxide facing away from the head by mistake?
--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Ken Winokur
No, that much I'm sure about. The tape was oxide toward the head.
I'll get the Nagra and see how it all sounds. I assume it has 3 3/4
ips...
Thanks all.
Adrian Tuddenham
Sounds as though your H.F. problem is indeed either azimuth or dirt on
the head - or both.
For simplicity of head adjustment, the Ferrograph takes a lot of
beating; but you may not find them as easy to obtain as a Nagra.
Ferrographs were made with either IEC or NAB specs, according to which
market they were destined for. The early models were big,
unsophisticated and very robust, which endeared them to some users and
made others hate them.
geoff
>
> If you play back a half-track tape on a quarter-track machine, you
> will get some weirdness. But if it is very muffled, it's likely to
> have an azimuth issue.
Or no HF in the first place...
geoff
Gary Louie
being the large T-Audio. The 4S does have 3.75ips and switchable playback EQ
for NAB or "CCIR" (now known as IEC). Azimuth adjustment is a normal metric
hex key (2mm IIRC) and non-obvious - it's the tiny gear that rotates the
larger gear under the head. The larger gear is a beveled disc that tilts the
head for azimuth - don't try loosening the hex in the large gear or the
whole head comes off. I wouldn't fool with it unless you have the MRL tape
to restore azimuth, and there are several other ways to screw up the head
alignment. A special Nagra head alignment gauge is then needed to square up
the head again. You need the line output cable with banana plugs.
I also have a Sony TC366 and usually only about half of the track width for
the left channel corresponds with a half track mono track. That gives a poor
signal to noise, but shouldn't inherently lose highs if they are there.
Correct azimuth is correct azimuth. My guess is the original has no highs
unless the Sony has gone bad or the head is really dirty.
in article
4159be51-bfad-4d3c...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, Ken
Winokur at all...@verizon.net wrote on 12/19/09 10:17 AM: