What happened to Howeird Fester's promise?
Steve Zipser
his posts and the propensity to blow a lot of hot air?
Didn't a bunch of jerks get on our case when we stated we didn't believe
him for one minute? We were right as usual, and the borgs were full of
crap, as usual.
I noticed today that he was back with a vengeance - posting prolifically
and saying nothing. So I killfiled him again. He is a crashing bore.
Zip
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc http://sunshinestereo.com Tel: 305-757-9358
9535 Biscayne Blvd Miami Shores, FL 33138 Fax: 305-757-1367
Conrad Johnson Spectron Parasound Entech Gallo Davis NEAR Seleco PSB
Audible Illusions Straightwire Niles Oracle Faroudja Rega Benz-Micro
Dunlavy Lexicon Zenith Mordaunt-Short EAD CleanLines Monster RUNCO ESP
Nakamichi Genelec Solid Steel Camelot Salamander Audio Logic PASS NHT
Jacob Kramer
<z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote:
>
>I noticed today that he was back with a vengeance - posting prolifically
>and saying nothing. So I killfiled him again. He is a crashing bore.
>Zip
This is true. I am queasy to admit it, but I usually agree with
Howard. Nonetheless, I can rarely finish reading one of his posts.
They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only thing more
boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
--
"The dream of reason produces monsters."
--Goya
George M. Middius
> They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only thing more
> boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
Don't count out The Audio Critic. 42 pages, published
roughly three times every two years, full of Essence of
Ferstler, Rigmarole of Steindrone, and Grease of Axcel.
George M. Middius
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo)
"George M. Middius" <Glan...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:f0j1bso4natkqoql4...@4ax.com...
George is being exceedingly kind here. They publish, on average, once every
two to three years!
Zip
Tony Loban
Steve Zipser wrote:
>Didn't he state that he was either leaving or toning down the
number of
>his posts and the propensity to blow a lot of hot air?
this from the 'sirocco' of rao.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Tony Loban
ja...@redconnect.net (Jacob Kramer) wrote:
jacob kramer:
---snip---
>I am queasy to admit it, but I usually agree with
>Howard. Nonetheless, I can rarely finish reading one of his
posts.
>They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only
thing more
>boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
howard, are you listening? even those who often agree with your
position(s) tire of your methods.
in many ways, you are your own worst enemy.
surely there is a better way.
Howard Ferstler
>
> Didn't he state that he was either leaving or toning down the number of
> his posts and the propensity to blow a lot of hot air?
>
> him for one minute? We were right as usual, and the borgs were full of
> crap, as usual.
>
> and saying nothing. So I killfiled him again. He is a crashing bore.
> Zip
Just posting in response to numerous posts by others that
were pointing up my supposed errors. If I was not so popular
(or notorious), we would not have all those posts about me,
and I would not have to respond, and RAO would be relatively
free of Ferstler. You guys are forever forcing me to
recreate myself right in front of your collective eyes.
Actually, whenever I need a boost to book sales, I post a
few snippets, the flames arise, I respond, and book sales
take back off.
Thanks, guys.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> In article <38b0c0c5...@news.redconnect.com>,
> ja...@redconnect.net (Jacob Kramer) wrote:
> >I am queasy to admit it, but I usually agree with
> >Howard. Nonetheless, I can rarely finish reading one of his
> posts.
> >They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only
> thing more
> >boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
> howard, are you listening? even those who often agree with your
> position(s) tire of your methods.
> in many ways, you are your own worst enemy.
> surely there is a better way.
I am what I am. Messages from Olympus often are not easy to
understand.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> Jacob Kramer said:
>
> > They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only thing more
> > boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
> roughly three times every two years, full of Essence of
> Ferstler, Rigmarole of Steindrone, and Grease of Axcel.
I have never written for the magazine, although they have
published several of my letters. (You do not get paid for
letters.) I like much of what the magazine says, although I
do not fully agree with Aczel and Rich on what is and is not
important in speaker-system performance.
Still, I consider the magazine to be one of the most
informative and entertaining reads in consumer-oriented
audio.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> "George M. Middius" <Glan...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
> news:f0j1bso4natkqoql4...@4ax.com...
> >
> > > They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only thing more
> > > boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
> >
> >
> > Don't count out The Audio Critic. 42 pages, published
> > roughly three times every two years, full of Essence of
> > Ferstler, Rigmarole of Steindrone, and Grease of Axcel.
>
> two to three years!
> Zip
What they lack in quantity, they make up for in quality.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:24:38 -0500, Steve Zipser
> <z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote:
> >I noticed today that he was back with a vengeance - posting prolifically
> >and saying nothing. So I killfiled him again. He is a crashing bore.
> This is true. I am queasy to admit it, but I usually agree with
> Howard. Nonetheless, I can rarely finish reading one of his posts.
> They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only thing more
> boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
First, in order to say what you have said and be accurate
with your judgment, you would have had to read everything on
RAO. You must have a lot of spare time.
Glad you find some of my stuff workable, however, and
perhaps your problem is that you do not enjoy reading long,
convoluted sentences.
Second, some parts of RAHE are extremely interesting. For
example, look over just about anything Dick Pierce writes
and you will come away knowing more about audio than you did
before.
Howard Ferstler
David Wareing
<hfer...@mailer.fsu.edu> wrote:
>"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo)" wrote:
>>
>> "George M. Middius" <Glan...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
>> news:f0j1bso4natkqoql4...@4ax.com...
>> > Jacob Kramer said:
>> >
>> > > They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only thing more
>> > > boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't count out The Audio Critic. 42 pages, published
>> > roughly three times every two years, full of Essence of
>> > Ferstler, Rigmarole of Steindrone, and Grease of Axcel.
>>
>> George is being exceedingly kind here. They publish, on average, once every
>> two to three years!
>> Zip
>
>What they lack in quantity, they make up for in quality.
>
>Howard Ferstler
You take a different approach...... Good move, Howard, but there is
more danger that you might repeat (yourself) at some stage in the
future..
Mike Bates
> Actually, whenever I need a boost to book sales, I post a
> few snippets, the flames arise, I respond, and book sales
> take back off.
What do you do order another one for yourself?
You must have a real collection of them at home.. hehe
Mike Bates
Sander deWaal
>Actually, whenever I need a boost to book sales, I post a
>few snippets, the flames arise, I respond, and book sales
>take back off.
Now *this* is a classic case of Placebo effect.
>Thanks, guys.
Party on, Pooper :-)
--
Sander deWaal
c...@wxs.nl
Sander deWaal
>Second, some parts of RAHE are extremely interesting. For
>example, look over just about anything Dick Pierce writes
>and you will come away knowing more about audio than you did
>before.
Why don't you heed this advice, yourself?
--
Sander deWaal
c...@wxs.nl
Sander deWaal
>I am what I am. Messages from Olympus often are not easy to
>understand.
Somehow, I think of oracles as being a little more
tasty than a retired middle-aged library clerk.
(I know, I know, it's a high priestess, actually).
--
Sander deWaal
c...@wxs.nl
Jacob Kramer
absurd.
In article <38B19ADA...@mailer.fsu.edu>,
hfer...@mailer.fsu.edu wrote:
> > howard, are you listening? even those who often agree with your
> > position(s) tire of your methods.
> > in many ways, you are your own worst enemy.
> > surely there is a better way.
>
> I am what I am. Messages from Olympus often are not easy to
> understand.
>
> Howard Ferstler
>
--
"The dream of reason produces monsters."
--Goya
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Curtis Leeds
>
> Didn't he state that he was either leaving or toning down the number of
> his posts and the propensity to blow a lot of hot air?
Probably - he's made that sort of promise many times.
Inevitably, he returns, and then he blames the group for
dragging him back into the thick of it.
He also alternates between the rather civil - when he
demands courtesy from others - but then he'll turn around
and call someone a Nazi (or - in my case - a direct
comparison to Hitler), and get all worked up over someone's
simple preference.
> I noticed today that he was back with a vengeance - posting prolifically
> and saying nothing. So I killfiled him again. He is a crashing bore.
The best thing to do with Howard is to simply ignore him.
You won't have missed anything. He's singing the same sad
tune as always.
Hal
and gibberish overwhelm any decent contribution
they make to RAO. Those who respond to them just fuel their twisted desires
and egos.
"Steve Zipser" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.131a88113...@news.mia.bellsouth.net...
> Didn't he state that he was either leaving or toning down the number of
> his posts and the propensity to blow a lot of hot air?
>
> Didn't a bunch of jerks get on our case when we stated we didn't believe
> him for one minute? We were right as usual, and the borgs were full of
> crap, as usual.
>
> I noticed today that he was back with a vengeance - posting prolifically
> and saying nothing. So I killfiled him again. He is a crashing bore.
Hal
should realize now
what he is and the way he thinks. If he thinks he is a god, he should
stick to Valhalla and
his persona of Loki.
"Sander deWaal" <c...@wxs.nl> wrote in message
news:38b1b489...@news.wxs.nl...
> Howard Ferstler said:
>
> >I am what I am. Messages from Olympus often are not easy to
> >understand.
>
Hal
"Mike Bates" <bat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:38B1AF28...@aol.com...
> Howard Ferstler wrote:
>
> > Actually, whenever I need a boost to book sales, I post a
> > few snippets, the flames arise, I respond, and book sales
> > take back off.
>
Now everyone sees Howard's agenda. He is not interested in helping anyone,
just selling rubbish.
Hal
> Howard Ferstler said:
>
> >Actually, whenever I need a boost to book sales, I post a
> >few snippets, the flames arise, I respond, and book sales
> >take back off.
>
And he takes the placebos.....well, not orally.
George M. Middius
> Probably - he's made that sort of promise many times.
> Inevitably, he returns, and then he blames the group for
> dragging him back into the thick of it.
Howard's self-pity act is almost as vile as Nastyborg's.
> He also alternates between the rather civil - when he
> demands courtesy from others - but then he'll turn around
> and call someone a Nazi (or - in my case - a direct
> comparison to Hitler), and get all worked up over someone's
> simple preference.
Not to mention whining about us calling him names instead of
answering his "arguments," and the next moment calling us
"lunatics" or "fanatics".
> The best thing to do with Howard is to simply ignore him.
> You won't have missed anything. He's singing the same sad
> tune as always.
Howard isn't the 50-car pileup that Arnii is, but it sure
takes a lot of willpower to drive on by without slowing
down.
George M. Middius
Jacob Kramer
<hfer...@mailer.fsu.edu> wrote:
>Jacob Kramer wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:24:38 -0500, Steve Zipser
>> <z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote:
>
>> >I noticed today that he was back with a vengeance - posting prolifically
>> >and saying nothing. So I killfiled him again. He is a crashing bore.
>
>> This is true. I am queasy to admit it, but I usually agree with
>> Howard. Nonetheless, I can rarely finish reading one of his posts.
>> They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup. The only thing more
>> boring about audio I have ever read is RAHE.
>
>First, in order to say what you have said and be accurate
>with your judgment, you would have had to read everything on
>RAO. You must have a lot of spare time.
What?
>
>Glad you find some of my stuff workable, however, and
>perhaps your problem is that you do not enjoy reading long,
>convoluted sentences.
You seem to be wrongly implying that convoluted has a positive
connotation. Do you mean "involved" or "intricate"? If that is what
you mean, you are wrong. Involved and itricate are not boring per se,
although they can be.
>
>Second, some parts of RAHE are extremely interesting. For
>example, look over just about anything Dick Pierce writes
>and you will come away knowing more about audio than you did
>before.
Do you have a sense of humor?
Hal
But Howard is a 50-car-high pile.
Howard Ferstler
>
> Yep, Curtis Leeds is back. Be afraid, Howard!
> > He also alternates between the rather civil - when he
> > demands courtesy from others - but then he'll turn around
> > and call someone a Nazi (or - in my case - a direct
> > comparison to Hitler), and get all worked up over someone's
> > simple preference.
I'd like to see an example of this "direct comparison."
> Not to mention whining about us calling him names instead of
> answering his "arguments," and the next moment calling us
> "lunatics" or "fanatics".
There is a big difference between calling an individual a
dope and labeling a group of individuals as fanatics or
crazies, particularly when they believe that wires make
sound.
> > The best thing to do with Howard is to simply ignore him.
> > You won't have missed anything. He's singing the same sad
> > tune as always.
Ignoring someone is the safest way I know to make sure that
they do not grind you into powder in a debate.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
> "The dream of reason produces monsters."
> --Goya
This is an easy quote to misinterpret.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> "Mike Bates" <bat...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:38B1AF28...@aol.com...
> > Howard Ferstler wrote:
> >
> > > few snippets, the flames arise, I respond, and book sales
> > > take back off.
> just selling rubbish.
You judge them as rubbish. Have you read any of them? As for
my wanting to sell books, sure. I offer a product that I
consider valuable, and people pay for that product. It is
called capitalism.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> Howard Ferstler said:
>
> >Second, some parts of RAHE are extremely interesting. For
> >example, look over just about anything Dick Pierce writes
> >and you will come away knowing more about audio than you did
> >before.
What makes you think that I do not? Some of Pierce's stuff
is so good that I print it out and put it in my reference
file.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> Steve Zipser wrote:
> >
> > Didn't he state that he was either leaving or toning down the number of
> > his posts and the propensity to blow a lot of hot air?
> Inevitably, he returns, and then he blames the group for
> dragging him back into the thick of it.
Yep. It's their fault. Gluttons for punishment, they are.
> > I noticed today that he was back with a vengeance - posting prolifically
> > and saying nothing. So I killfiled him again. He is a crashing bore.
> The best thing to do with Howard is to simply ignore him.
> You won't have missed anything. He's singing the same sad
> tune as always.
Rationality is a frightful tune indeed to the tweako members
of the audio high-end establishment.
Howard Ferstler
Vizsl...@worldnet.att.net
<hfer...@mailer.fsu.edu> wrote:
>Jacob Kramer wrote:
>
>> "The dream of reason produces monsters."
>> --Goya
>
>This is an easy quote to misinterpret.
>
Not when you're standing right there, Howard.
Ed
Howard Ferstler
It is not a condemnation of the power of reason. It
indicates that the truths that reason reveals might not
always be what one had hoped for.
Remarkably, in the world of audio it certainly applies to a
lot of the truths discovered by means of rigorous comparison
testing. The results are often not what the fringe elements
hoped for, and so they respond with an attack against the
power of reason itself.
Goya would not be a confederate in that kind of endeavor.
Howard Ferstler
Sander deWaal
>What makes you think that I do not? Some of Pierce's stuff
>is so good that I print it out and put it in my reference
>file.
I'd never thought that one day, I would use one of Arny's
favorite quotes: "You can lead a horse to water, but you
can't make it drink"..........
--
Sander deWaal
c...@wxs.nl
stephen campbell
>As for my wanting to sell books, sure. I
>offer a product that I consider valuable,
>and people pay for that product. It is
>called capitalism.
What's good for the goose....
Camfella
Steve Zipser
>As for my wanting to sell books, sure.
Wanting and succeeding are two different things, aren't they, Howard!
> I offer a product that I consider valuable,
But nobody else does, as evidenced by the mediocre sales and your
incompetent sales-hacking ;-)
>and people pay for that product.
But they don't!
> It is called capitalism.
It is called supply exceeding demand by infinity !
Howard Ferstler
>
> Howard wrote:
> > I offer a product that I consider valuable,
> But nobody else does, as evidenced by the mediocre sales and your
> incompetent sales-hacking ;-)
Have you taken a survey of customer satisfaction? Looks like
you are using the same slapdash technique to evaluate the
happiness of my customers as you use to evaluate audio
system quality. As for sales numbers, have you managed to
somehow hack into the accounting sections of my three
publishers?
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> Howard wrote:
>
> >offer a product that I consider valuable,
> >called capitalism.
> What's good for the goose....
>
> Camfella
Note that unlike exotic cables and overpriced amplifiers and
CD players, and sometimes goofy audio accessories, my books
at least do something that people can detect. What's more,
people can look at them before they buy and decide if what
they see makes sense. If you compare the gimmick products in
the correct manner, you will discover that they do nothing
out of the ordinary, whatsoever.
Capitalism should not include scam operations.
Howard Ferstler
Marc Phillips
>Note that unlike exotic cables and overpriced amplifiers and
>CD players, and sometimes goofy audio accessories, my books
>at least do something that people can detect. What's more,
>people can look at them before they buy and decide if what
>they see makes sense. If you compare the gimmick products in
>the correct manner, you will discover that they do nothing
>out of the ordinary, whatsoever.
>
For someone who claims to be a party pooper and a consumer watchdog against
"audio scams," I find it repellent that you seldom, if ever, name specific
products that you find to be rip-offs. Sweeping generalizations against the
high-end won't accomplish anything, Howard.
In other words, are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to
bite?
Boon
Jon Lane
>Ignoring someone is the safest way I know to make sure that
>they do not grind you into powder in a debate.
>
>Howard Ferstler
"Avoidance is the best policy" wasn't another of Honest Abe's utterances,
Howard.
JL
Hal
"stephen campbell" <Camf...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11632-38...@storefull-175.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Howard wrote:
>
> >As for my wanting to sell books, sure. I
> >offer a product that I consider valuable,
> >and people pay for that product. It is
> >called capitalism.
>
Howard Ferstler
In my books, I point out various techniques that allow an
intelligent consumer to separate the wheat from the chaff by
means of their own intellect. Why is it that you high enders
always want names and specifics. Why don't you try thinking on
your own for a change, without having to have someone name names.
Besides, by being vague, I just drive you guys nuts, as you
continue to worry about whether or not I will badmouth your
particular favorite product. Are my opinions about specific
components all that important to you?
Howard Ferstler
Hal
keeping my killfile current.
Oh, yeah. You are still a hypocrite.
"Howard Ferstler" <fer...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:38B34D17...@attglobal.net...
Jacob Kramer
>
>>Jacob Kramer wrote:
>>
>>> "The dream of reason produces monsters."
>>> --Goya
>>
>>This is an easy quote to misinterpret.
>>
I think it repays close reading. It can be interpreted in many ways.
--
Jacob Kramer
campbell) wrote:
>Howard wrote:
>
>>As for my wanting to sell books, sure. I
>>offer a product that I consider valuable,
>>and people pay for that product. It is
>>called capitalism.
>
It's called advertising.
dave weil
Howard Ferstler wrote:
> Marc Phillips wrote:
> >
> > Howard "I secretly love Shun Mook" Ferstler said:
> >
> > >Note that unlike exotic cables and overpriced amplifiers and
> > >CD players, and sometimes goofy audio accessories, my books
> > >at least do something that people can detect.
If they have a bullshit detector.
> What's more,
> > >people can look at them before they buy and decide if what
> > >they see makes sense.
Hardly. My library doesn't have them. My bookstores don't carry them. I offered
to have you send me one and if I liked it, I'd buy it. But even *you* don't have an
extra copy to send out. So the above is a lie. It's not like a normal authority in a
field where you would routinely find the book on the shelves of major or even
minor bookstores. I can find the Harley book though. Even the Dearborn one.
> If you compare the gimmick products in
> > >the correct manner, you will discover that they do nothing
> > >out of the ordinary, whatsoever.
>
> > For someone who claims to be a party pooper and a consumer watchdog against
> > "audio scams," I find it repellent that you seldom, if ever, name specific
> > products that you find to be rip-offs. Sweeping generalizations against the
> > high-end won't accomplish anything, Howard.
> >
> > In other words, are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to
> > bite?
>
> In my books, I point out various techniques that allow an
> intelligent consumer to separate the wheat from the chaff by
> means of their own intellect. Why is it that you high enders
> always want names and specifics. Why don't you try thinking on
> your own for a change, without having to have someone name names.
>
> Besides, by being vague, I just drive you guys nuts, as you
> continue to worry about whether or not I will badmouth your
> particular favorite product.
You won't. You're much too much of a two-faced coward to do so. After all,
you're too much of a wimp to even say the things that you say here in your books.
This is by your own admission. So not only does it make you a coward, it makes
you intellectually dishonest.
> Are my opinions about specific
> components all that important to you?
Naaah, it's just important to your credibility, or lack thereof.
stephen campbell
>As for my wanting to sell books, sure. I
>offer a product that I consider valuable,
>and people pay for that product. It is
>called capitalism.
I wrote:
>What's good for the goose....
Howard:
>...Capitalism should not include scam
>operations.
Main Entry: cap·i·tal·ism
Pronunciation: 'ka-p&-t&l-"iz-&m, 'kap-t&l-, British also k&-'pi-t&l-
Function: noun
Date: 1877
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of
capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision,
and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are
determined mainly by competition in a free market
Where does it say high end audio products are not allowed?
Why are the purchaser's of high end audio products not complaining about
being scammed?
Isn't it neccessary for the purchaser to feel ripped off before you can
call it a scam?
Camfella
greg pavlov
wrote:
>Gee Howard? How many internet accounts do you have? It's a lot of work
>keeping my killfile current.
>Oh, yeah. You are still a hypocrite.
>
I think that the problem is in your filter, not in Howard's
addressing. I haven't seen any of Howard's posts in the
6 months or so since I put him in my "kill" file. Well,
almost none. I still see those that folks feel obligated
to repost in order to complain about his posts.
greg pavlov
[not affiliated with DFCI or Harvard]
**************************************************************************
For the definitive intro guide to rao, see:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/
**************************************************************************
Curtis Leeds
>
> Yep, Curtis Leeds is back. Be afraid, Howard!
I'm not "back" only because I never really left. I scan the
group daily for amusement, and occasionally even answer
posts.
But - as I said - I gave up on Ferstler when he compared me
to Hitler. I'm embarrassed to admit that it took me that
long to figure out that he had nothing of value to
contribute to the group.
Curtis Leeds
> > > He also alternates between the rather civil - when he
> > > demands courtesy from others - but then he'll turn around
> > > and call someone a Nazi (or - in my case - a direct
> > > comparison to Hitler), and get all worked up over someone's
> > > simple preference.
...and Howard answers:
> I'd like to see an example of this "direct comparison."
Responding to Howard is a sheer waste of time, but DejaNews
is s-o-o-o-o-o-o easy to use, that I thought I'd post the
proof here. His comparison between me and Hitler is there
for all to see:
Subject:
Re: JA you are doing more to hurt two channel
than help it.....sheesh!
Date:
11/15/1999
Author:
Curtis Leeds <cle...@idt.net>
Save this thread
Howard said:
> > > I stand corrected. Two points, for sure. Two, and
only two. There
> > > is no such problem whatsoever with the compact disc.
Do you feel
> > > triumphant...Like Hitler
> > > in his bunker during the final days, pointing out
that some of
> > > his troops have managed to stop a Russian tank (oops,
I mean two
> > > tanks) out of the hundreds closing in.
I answered:
> > Let me get this straight, Howard: I point out one of
your
> > factual errors, and you compare me to Hitler?
> >
> > Ferstler, your problems are even worse than I thought.
Howie now says:
> Re-read my post. Your logic parallels his during his last
> hysterical, deluded days, but so does the logic of most
> other high enders.
Your comparison of me to Adolph Hitler is sick and twisted
and - I can hear the applause in the distance - ends for
once and for all the idiotic discussion you have so labored
to continue with me.
get a life, Howard. You r-e-a-l-l-y need one.
Case closed. I now return to ignoring Howard Ferstler.
Marc Phillips
said:
>In my books, I point out various techniques that allow an
>intelligent consumer to separate the wheat from the chaff by
>means of their own intellect.
And the chaff is...?
>Why is it that you high enders
>always want names and specifics.
Because you Borgs certainly do. Isn't it your MO?
>Why don't you try thinking on
>your own for a change, without having to have someone name names.
But I thought you wanted us to listen to you! That may be the most ridiculous
statement you've ever made...a grotesque contradiction.
>Besides, by being vague, I just drive you guys nuts, as you
>continue to worry about whether or not I will badmouth your
>particular favorite product. Are my opinions about specific
>components all that important to you?
Nope. Just waiting to blow you out of the water. Again.
Boon
Arny Krüger
"Curtis Leeds" <cle...@idt.net> wrote in message
news:38B457DE...@idt.net...
> "George M. Middius" wrote:
> >
> > Yep, Curtis Leeds is back. Be afraid, Howard!
>
> I'm not "back" only because I never really left. I scan the
> group daily for amusement, and occasionally even answer
> posts.
>
> But - as I said - I gave up on Ferstler when he compared me
> to Hitler.
IMO, a Wise move. USENET rules are that the first person to mention
the third Reich loses any debate that is going on. :-)
Paul Dormer
>> > Howard. Nonetheless, I can rarely finish reading one of his posts.
>> > They are the most boring thing on this newsgroup.
Howards rebuttal..
>I am what I am.
True, yawn.
Paul Dormer Me...@clara.net
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sound Design, Editing, Mastering
George M. Middius
> USENET rules are that the first person to mention
> the third Reich loses any debate that is going on. :-)
Did you forget to wink because your pots are getting too full?
George M. Middius
Howard Ferstler
> You won't. You're much too much of a two-faced coward to do so. After all,
> you're too much of a wimp to even say the things that you say here in your books.
> This is by your own admission. So not only does it make you a coward, it makes
> you intellectually dishonest.
> > Are my opinions about specific
> > components all that important to you?
> Naaah, it's just important to your credibility, or lack thereof.
I always marvel at how often the tweak contingent uses the word
"coward." They do this as if the subject of audio was important
enough for cowardice or courage to even matter.
By the way, you would not recognize someone who is intellectually
dishonest if they came right up to you and bit you on the ass.
If my so-called lack of credibility bothers you, just ignore me.
By your standards, I do not rate the time and attention you
devote to my opinions.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
> Main Entry: cap搏暗al搏sm
> Pronunciation: 'ka-p&-t&l-"iz-&m, 'kap-t&l-, British also k&-'pi-t&l-
> Function: noun
> Date: 1877
>
> : an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of
> capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision,
> and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are
> determined mainly by competition in a free market
>
> Where does it say high end audio products are not allowed?
I have no problem with "high-end audio products" at all, provided
that they at least do something above and beyond the ordinary
when it comes to performance. I have not seen that happening with
costly wires (wires!, for pete's sake) and amps and CD players).
> Why are the purchaser's of high end audio products not complaining about
> being scammed?
Many of them are jerks. The rest are true believers, which I
suppose is another, somewhat more interesting kind of jerk.
> Isn't it neccessary for the purchaser to feel ripped off before you can
> call it a scam?
Nope. I operate on a different level. I feel that if a con artist
scams someone who is ignorant of what has happened to him, it is
still a scam.
Howard Ferstler
Hal
Some from that poor university he works for
(poor in the sense that they are pathetic enough to employ him), some from
IBM net and some from it's new name, ATT Global.
No matter what the source, it's all the same garbage.
"greg pavlov" <pav...@noaddress.com> wrote in message
news:38b40ce3...@news.dfci.harvard.edu...
Hal
"Curtis Leeds" <cle...@idt.net> wrote in message
news:38B457DE...@idt.net...
> "George M. Middius" wrote:
> >
> > Yep, Curtis Leeds is back. Be afraid, Howard!
>
> I'm not "back" only because I never really left. I scan the
> group daily for amusement, and occasionally even answer
> posts.
>
> But - as I said - I gave up on Ferstler when he compared me
> long to figure out that he had nothing of value to
> contribute to the group.
Don't be embarrassed. Most intelligent and informed people take time to
realize
that Howard actually exists. He is beyond logic, knowledge, and reason. He
is pure ego.
He looks 50, and acts 8.
stephen campbell
>Isn't it neccessary for the purchaser to feel
>ripped off before you can call it a scam?
Howard responded:
>Nope. I operate on a different level. I feel
>that if a con artist scams someone who is
>ignorant of what has happened to him, it
>is still a scam.
Howard, if I bought a high end amplifier because it had better
measurements than a less expensive one, have I been scammed by a con
artist?
Same question as above but this time I'm fully aware of the evidence
that says the one with better measurements(more expensive amp) is not
likely to be audibly distinguishable from the less expensive one.
Camfella
dave weil
Howard Ferstler wrote:
> dave weil wrote:
>
> > You won't. You're much too much of a two-faced coward to do so. After all,
> > you're too much of a wimp to even say the things that you say here in your books.
> > This is by your own admission. So not only does it make you a coward, it makes
> > you intellectually dishonest.
>
> > > Are my opinions about specific
> > > components all that important to you?
>
> > Naaah, it's just important to your credibility, or lack thereof.
>
> I always marvel at how often the tweak contingent uses the word
> "coward." They do this as if the subject of audio was important
> enough for cowardice or courage to even matter.
Howard, it's not "audio" we're talking about, it's your stance aabout "audio." That's
what important here. It's what you say and yes, *that's* important, whether you're
talking about audio or ethics. Even Spinoza would agree.
For someone who claims to have studied philosophy and logic, you trash both
concepts totally.
> By the way, you would not recognize someone who is intellectually
> dishonest if they came right up to you and bit you on the ass.
I already have. You are intellectually dishonest. And don't come near me with those
choppers.
> If my so-called lack of credibility bothers you, just ignore me.
> By your standards, I do not rate the time and attention you
> devote to my opinions.
No, by my standards, that's *precisely* why I bother.
Arny Krüger
"George M. Middius" <Glan...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:qu09bssm9cs37tj4u...@4ax.com...
I changed the emoticon because I thought it might be time to make a
trivial change. I suspected that it would not escape your notice.
Thanks for being so predictable! ;-)
Howard Ferstler
>
> Howard Ferstler wrote:
> > By your standards, I do not rate the time and attention you
> > devote to my opinions.
> No, by my standards, that's *precisely* why I bother.
Done those level-matched comparisons of cables yet?
Remember, take a pair of the very best speaker wires in your
$10,000 collection and compare it to 16-gauge lamp cord.
Then, take a pair of your best interconnects in that same
collection and compare it to some cheap stuff, like what you
get when you purchase a VCR.
You want to compare the best you have with real "junk," just
to make the differences more detectable.
Remember to set it up so you can switch instantly. (Dual
tape-monitor loops would work for interconnects, but speaker
wires would probably require an external switch box.) Try
the comparison with both music and random-noise inputs.
Well, at least you did not pay for those upscale cables.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> I asked:
>
> >Isn't it neccessary for the purchaser to feel
> >ripped off before you can call it a scam?
> Howard responded:
> >Nope. I operate on a different level. I feel
> >that if a con artist scams someone who is
> >ignorant of what has happened to him, it
> >is still a scam.
> Howard, if I bought a high end amplifier because it had better
> measurements than a less expensive one, have I been scammed by a con
> artist?
I have no problem with high-end amps by outfits like Adcom,
Bryston, Rotel, Sunfire, etc. They have build qualities that
set them apart from units that might not hold up when
driving wild speaker loads or not have enough power with
low-impedance speakers.
However, I see no point in getting a unit that costs many,
many thousands of dollars. You can only push build quality
so far.
As for your specific question, once the distortion levels
get low enough, going lower is gilding the lily. However, we
still have the factor of build quality, and there certainly
is something to knowing that your particular component is
bulletproof and has super-low distortion. (I feel that way
about my two Velodyne subs.) However, it strikes me that you
can get very low distortion for a not excessive amount of
cash.
> Same question as above but this time I'm fully aware of the evidence
> that says the one with better measurements(more expensive amp) is not
> likely to be audibly distinguishable from the less expensive one.
I believe this is likely, unless the cheaper amp has some
serious design problems. Probably, the most apparent
differences between amps involves their output impedances,
and how those impact the frequency response of various
speakers.
Because of this, if someone has speakers that are genuine
difficult loads, it would pay to get an amp that could deal
with that. However, I do not believe you need to pay a huge
amount of money for such an amp.
Howard Ferstler
stephen campbell
Howard, if I bought a high end amplifier because it had better
measurements than a less expensive one, have I been scammed by a con
artist?
Howard responded:
>I have no problem with high-end amps by
>outfits like Adcom, Bryston, Rotel, Sunfire,
>etc. They have build qualities that set
>them apart from units that might not hold
>up when driving wild speaker loads or not
>have enough power with low-impedance
>speakers.
>However, I see no point in getting a unit
>that costs many, many thousands of
>dollars. You can only push build quality so
>far.
>As for your specific question, once the
>distortion levels get low enough, going
>lower is gilding the lily. However, we still
>have the factor of build quality, and there
>certainly is something to knowing that
>your particular component is bulletproof
>and has super-low distortion. (I feel that
>way about my two Velodyne subs.)
>However, it strikes me that you can get
>very low distortion for a not excessive
>amount of cash.
You say that Adcom, Bryston, Rotel, Sunfire, etc. are not scams, well
what brands are scams, and do they have better measurements than the
above brands? What amplifiers have the best measurements?
Camfella
George M. Middius
> > Did you forget to wink because your pots are getting too full?
> Thanks for being so predictable! ;-)
Thanks for admitting you're rolling in quarts! ;-)
George M. Middius
greg pavlov
wrote:
>No, not in my filter.
>
Your filter isn't very functional, then. Or perhaps you
aren't using it as well as you might.
>No matter what the source, it's all the same garbage.
>
If his posts are garbage, why do you repost them ?
greg pavlov
[not affiliated with DFCI or Harvard]
***************************************************************************
Howard Ferstler
> >Why don't you try thinking on
> >your own for a change, without having to have someone name names.
> But I thought you wanted us to listen to you! That may be the most ridiculous
> statement you've ever made...a grotesque contradiction.
I want you to THINK for yourselves, and not just get caught
up in emotive reactions to ad copy, mythology, wishful
thinking, mystic proclamations, and nonsense.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:23:11 -0500, "Hal" <hal_...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
> >Gee Howard? How many internet accounts do you have? It's a lot of work
> >keeping my killfile current.
> >Oh, yeah. You are still a hypocrite.
> I think that the problem is in your filter, not in Howard's
> addressing. I haven't seen any of Howard's posts in the
> 6 months or so since I put him in my "kill" file. Well,
> almost none. I still see those that folks feel obligated
> to repost in order to complain about his posts.
You may be missing a lot Greg. After all, how will you know
of the ploys and tactics of your foils if you do not read
their material?
In any case, I killfile no one, because "that which doesn't
kill me makes me stronger."
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
That is the problem with you high-enders. All you want are
shopping tips.
Howard Ferstler
Fear3000
>I want you to THINK for yourselves, and not just get caught
>up in emotive reactions to ad copy, mythology, wishful
>thinking, mystic proclamations, and nonsense.
Seeing your position is based on a complete lack of personal experience with
the products you defame, once again you prove yourself to be a raging dickhead.
Best Wishes,
Felix
Marc Phillips
>Marc Phillips wrote:
>
>> >Why don't you try thinking on
>> >your own for a change, without having to have someone name names.
>> But I thought you wanted us to listen to you! That may be the most
>ridiculous
>> statement you've ever made...a grotesque contradiction.
>I want you to THINK for yourselves, and not just get caught
>up in emotive reactions to ad copy, mythology, wishful
>thinking, mystic proclamations, and nonsense.
And I want you to strive for excellence at least once in your life, instead of
wallowing in a fetid, stagnant pool of mediocrity.
Boon
stephen campbell
>You say that Adcom, Bryston, Rotel,
>Sunfire, etc. are not scams, well what
>brands are scams, and do they have
>better measurements than the above
>brands? What amplifiers have the best
>measurements?
Howard respoded:
>That is the problem with you high-enders.
>All you want are shopping tips.
But Howard, isn't that what you're all about? Dont chicken out now.
Aren't you here to expose the scams in the high end? How am I to know
when I am being scammed? Is there a fixed dollar value, a threshold, at
which all amplifiers above that price are scams?
Earlier I asked:
>Isn't it neccessary for the purchaser to feel
>ripped off before you can call it a scam?
Howard responded:
>Nope. I operate on a different level. I feel
>that if a con artist scams someone who is
>ignorant of what has happened to him, it
>is still a scam.
So I ask you on behalf of the ignorant which amplifiers are scams? If I
don't feel like I have been ripped off then I have to rely on you to
tell me when this has happened, isn't that what you have said? You were
willing to name some brands that you don't think are scams, but the list
was rather limited. If there are amplifiers with better measurements
than the ones you mentioned, isn't that a valid reason for paying more
to own them?
Camfella
Sander deWaal
>> But - as I said - I gave up on Ferstler when he compared me
>> to Hitler. I'm embarrassed to admit that it took me that
>> long to figure out that he had nothing of value to
>> contribute to the group.
>Don't be embarrassed. Most intelligent and informed people take time to
>realize
>that Howard actually exists. He is beyond logic, knowledge, and reason. He
>is pure ego.
>He looks 50, and acts 8.
Howard Ferstler actually is a computer program.
It was developed from the '70s Eliza , and from there on,
psychology students at FSU tried to refine it.
Needless to say, the program got trapped in a subroutine,
causing it to post the same old stuff to RAO forever and ever,
until they pull the plug (which they probably won't).
At FSU, they're roaring with laughter at the replies, HF 1.0
generates.
It'll give them material to study for the next 20 years or so.
I've heard about a similar experiment in Michigan, but I
don't now how that one worked out. Does anyone know this?
--
Sander deWaal
c...@wxs.nl
Sander deWaal
>I always marvel at how often the tweak contingent uses the word
>"coward." They do this as if the subject of audio was important
>enough for cowardice or courage to even matter.
That's not correct, Howard.
It might be, that wherever one writes "Howard", you read it
as "coward".
I highly doubt that new goggles are going to help here, because
it's my firm belief that this serious condition originates from
between your ears.
--
Sander deWaal
c...@wxs.nl
Howard Ferstler
>
> >From: Howard Fester hfer...@mailer.fsu.edu
>
> >I want you to THINK for yourselves, and not just get caught
> >up in emotive reactions to ad copy, mythology, wishful
> >thinking, mystic proclamations, and nonsense.
> the products you defame, once again you prove yourself to be a raging dickhead.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Felix
It is to be assumed that the fringe elements sweat while
ranting.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> Howard "I wonder if feigning altruism will help sell books?"
This is your question? I find that real altruism works
better.
Howard Ferstler
Marc Phillips
If you believed that, then you would be warning people of specific products and
scams, instead of making broad sweeping generalizations that have no basis in
personal experience, much less fact.
Boon
jj, curmudgeon and tiring philalethist
Howard Ferstler <hfer...@mailer.fsu.edu> wrote:
>It is to be assumed that the fringe elements sweat while
>ranting.
They don't.
--
Copyright j...@research.att.com 2000, all rights reserved, except transmission
by USENET and like facilities granted. This notice must be included. Any
use by a provider charging in any way for the IP represented in and by this
article and any inclusion in print or other media are specifically prohibited.
dave weil
greg pavlov wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:17:52 -0500, "Hal" <hal_...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >No, not in my filter.
> >
> Your filter isn't very functional, then. Or perhaps you
> aren't using it as well as you might.
>
> >No matter what the source, it's all the same garbage.
> >
>
> If his posts are garbage, why do you repost them ?
And if you kill-filed him "months ago," then why are you even reading this thread?
Howard Ferstler
>
> Howard "I want to help only if it sells my books" Ferstler said:
>
> >Marc Phillips wrote:
> >>
> >> Howard "I wonder if feigning altruism will help sell books?"
> >
> >This is your question? I find that real altruism works
> >better.
>
> If you believed that, then you would be warning people of specific products and
> scams, instead of making broad sweeping generalizations that have no basis in
> personal experience, much less fact.
>
> Boon
There you go, wanting me to tell you what to buy or not to buy
again. Make up your own mind.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
If there are amplifiers with better measurements
> than the ones you mentioned, isn't that a valid reason for paying more
> to own them?
Nope. I suggest that you find some copies of my last two books
and read them.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
> what brands are scams, and do they have better measurements than the
> above brands? What amplifiers have the best measurements?
Most amplifiers sound so much alike, with distortion levels below
audibility, that your question about measurements is pretty much
irrelevant. I noted those companies, because many of their models
go a bit beyond the mainstream when it comes to maximum power,
build quality, adaptability to oddball speaker loads, and
durability. However, they usually will sound no better than many
cheaper models.
I feel that some people want upscale, separate amplifiers (I
mean, I own a Carver M500 myself), and I noted that those were
just a few of the companies that make such amplifiers. Spending
more than what the models made by those companies cost would mean
that you are overpaying for your amp. So, get out your calculator
and then just pick and choose at your leisure from the Audio
Equipment Directory when it comes to discovering which amps are
serious overkill (and overpriced) items.
Howard Ferstler
Hal
people know what your responding too.
"greg pavlov" <pav...@noaddress.com> wrote in message
news:38b57db3...@news.dfci.harvard.edu...
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:17:52 -0500, "Hal" <hal_...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >No, not in my filter.
> >
> Your filter isn't very functional, then. Or perhaps you
> aren't using it as well as you might.
>
> >No matter what the source, it's all the same garbage.
> >
>
> If his posts are garbage, why do you repost them ?
>
>
>
>
Hal
includes his post in a reply (like some other idiot did not like),
I can't resist.
Use your eyes and limited brain.
"dave weil" <dwe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:38B5BD0E...@mindspring.com...
>
>
> greg pavlov wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:17:52 -0500, "Hal" <hal_...@my-deja.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >No, not in my filter.
> > >
> > Your filter isn't very functional, then. Or perhaps you
> > aren't using it as well as you might.
> >
> > >No matter what the source, it's all the same garbage.
> > >
> >
> > If his posts are garbage, why do you repost them ?
>
dave weil
Hal wrote:
> Idiot. Look at the post. I do have Howard killfiled.. But if someone else
> includes his post in a reply (like some other idiot did not like),
> I can't resist.
>
> Use your eyes and limited brain.
Please Hal, try removing my name from above when you respond to points made
in a quote. It makes it look like you're talking to me. Or at least reply to the original
post instead of a quote. Either way is fine. Makes it clearer all the way around.
Marc Phillips
>> >> Howard "I wonder if feigning altruism will help sell books?"
>> >
>> >This is your question? I find that real altruism works
>> >better.
>> If you believed that, then you would be warning people of specific products
>and
>> scams, instead of making broad sweeping generalizations that have no basis
>in
>> personal experience, much less fact.
>There you go, wanting me to tell you what to buy or not to buy
>again. Make up your own mind.
>
I would rather snip my Achilles' tendons with a pair of needlenose pliers than
to ask you for your opinion on what to buy. What a gargantuan cop-out that is,
Howard. It is a transparent effort on your part to hide the fact that you have
no experience with audio scams or gimmicky products. You are merely parroting
from what others have said. You have no real opinions of your own, do you?
Boon
Hal
stephen campbell
If there are amplifiers with better measurements
than the ones you mentioned, isn't that a valid reason for paying more
to own them?
Howard responded:
Nope. I suggest that you find some copies of my last two books and read
them.
But Howard, I followed your exchanges with the dave, where he questioned
you on why you don't consider Dunlavy's wire a scam or him a con artist.
As I understand it you have no problem with consumers who want the best
measured performance or the manufacturers who supply it. You admit that
you think Dunlavy's wires are overpriced but still fall short of calling
him a con artist, or condeming the consumers who purchase his wires. Why
does your position change when it comes to amplifiers? Why is a consumer
a "jerk" for buying a high priced amp if it has superior measured
performance? Why do you now call this a scam?
I suspect that your response will reference the marketing of these
products as the basis for your claims of scamming. You will probably
repeat what you said to the dave, that you don't consider Dunlavy's
"overpriced" wire a scam, or him a fraud because of the position he
takes on these boards.
Well I would like you to give me specific examples of the
advertising/marketing of the amplifier companies that you consider con
artists and guilty of scamming the consumer, and compare this to the
advertising of the companies you mentioned earlier i.e. Adcom, Bryston,
Rotel, Sunfire etc., that you don't consider scams. Could you please
outline the differences between them.
BTW, since most amplifier manufacturers don't post to these boards we
don't really know what their positions are and can only judge them based
on their advertising/marketing. Therefore when bringing the subject of
Dunlavy and his advertising/marketing into the comparisons, I think we
should just use his promotional literature (e.g. website, magazine ads
etc.) to ensure a level comparison.
Camfella
stephen campbell
>Spending more than what the models
>made by those companies cost would
>mean that you are overpaying for your
>amp.
Maybe, but you have already stated that overpriced does not neccessarily
equal scam by con artist (re. Dunlavy), so tell me again why an
overpriced(IYO) amp is a scam.
Camfella
Arny Krüger
"stephen campbell" <Camf...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22457-38...@storefull-177.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
http://infoplease.lycos.com/ipd/A0638626.html
--- begin long quote ---
scam
Pronunciation: (skam), [key]
-n., v., scammed, scam.ming.
-n.
a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, esp. for making a
quick profit; swindle.
-v.t.
to cheat or defraud with a scam.
--- end long quote ---
http://infoplease.lycos.com/ipd/A0448538.html
--- begin long quote ---
fraud
Pronunciation: (frôd), [key]
-n.
1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence,
perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest
advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud;
election frauds.
3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and
a waste of time.
4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.
--- end long quote ---
http://infoplease.lycos.com/ipd/A0648958.html
--- begin long quote ---
Sham
Pronunciation: (sham)
-n., adj., v., shammed, sham.ming.
-n.
1. something that is not what it purports to be; a spurious
imitation; fraud or hoax.
2. a person who shams; shammer.
3. a cover or the like for giving a thing a different outward
appearance: a pillow sham.
-adj.
1. pretended; counterfeit; feigned: sham attacks; a sham Gothic
façade.
2. designed, made, or used as a sham.
-v.t.
1. to produce an imitation of.
2. to assume the appearance of; pretend to have: to sham illness.
-v.i.
to make a false show of something; pretend.
---- end long quote -----
Selling an amp at any price without making false, deceptive or
deceitful pretenses would not be a scam.
The scam aspect of selling high-priced amps comes when false claims
are made in order to induce people to buy them.
The obvious and common false claim is that the amp "sounds better",
when in fact it sounds no different.
The obvious and common end run around that is to try to sell amps
that actually may sound a little different, because they have
audible distortion due to intentionally substandard technical
performance.
This would be an imitation or counterfeit technological advance.
A common subtle and more complex potentially false claim that is
used to sell such amps is that the distortion is euphonic and in
some fashion "special", and thus worthy of a high price.
Arny Krüger
> Mr. Campbell asked:
> If there are amplifiers with better measurements
> than the ones you mentioned, isn't that a valid reason for paying
more
> to own them?
> Mr. Ferstler responded:
> Nope. I suggest that you find some copies of my last two books and
read them.
IMO & IME that won't help Mr. Campbell. IIRCP.
> But Howard, I followed your exchanges with the dave, where he
questioned
> you on why you don't consider Dunlavy's wire a scam or him a con
artist.
That one is easy to answer. Dunlavy carefully avoids making
deceptive claims about his wire.
> As I understand it you have no problem with consumers who want the
best
> measured performance or the manufacturers who supply it.
IMO, that the performance would be necessarily measurably better is
not a requirement. However the performance be inherent and reliably
present is a requirement.
>You admit that
> you think Dunlavy's wires are overpriced but still fall short of
calling
> him a con artist, or condeming the consumers who purchase his
wires.
Dunlavy carefully avoids making deceptive claims about his wire.
> Why does your position change when it comes to amplifiers?
It does not have to.
> Why is a consumer
> a "jerk" for buying a high priced amp if it has superior measured
> performance? Why do you now call this a scam?
A misrepresentation that is made about high-performance equipment is
that there is a necessary connection between the increased
performance and a reliable perception of improved sound quality.
Some of the highest-performance pieces of equipment that I know of
is advertised at http://www.dbtechno.com/ . 120 dB SNR, 0.0001 %
THD, etc., etc.
After reviewing a number of documents on this site whose titles
would indicate a good potential for hype and deceptive claims, I
just don't find any.
In fact, a number of documents that I just disovered being posted
there, particularly
http://www.dbtechno.com/ad122man/AD122-96_Manual.html (pp 15-21)
anticipated a number of posts that I have made in recent days about
dither.
http://www.dbtechno.com/dnf.pdf also seems very good. IMO "Must"
reading for many people who want to learn more about dither.
Interestingly enough, these guys rely on ABX testing, as shown in
http://www.dbtechno.com/ad122man/AD122-96_Manual16.html :
"An A/B/X test at 16 bit level, requires a quiet environment and low
level (loudness) audio. The listener must resist the temptation to
turn the volume up to unreasonable levels. "
If only some of our local "real engineers" could achieve these
levels of clarity and consistency!
> I suspect that your response will reference the marketing of these
> products as the basis for your claims of scamming.
That is a reasonable response. "Scam" is both a noun and a verb.
>You will probably
> repeat what you said to the dave, that you don't consider
Dunlavy's
> "overpriced" wire a scam, or him a fraud because of the position
he
> takes on these boards.
Dunlavy takes the position that his wires like his don't provide
improved sound. Thus he avoids perpetrating a fraud or a scam.
> Well I would like you to give me specific examples of the
> advertising/marketing of the amplifier companies that you consider
con
> artists and guilty of scamming the consumer, and compare this to
the
> advertising of the companies you mentioned earlier i.e. Adcom,
Bryston,
> Rotel, Sunfire etc., that you don't consider scams. Could you
please
> outline the differences between them.
Of these vendors, Sunfire seems most culpable because they claim
power levels for their subwoofer that would seem to deny the laws of
physics.
Adcom:
http://www.adcom.com/adcom.html
"No competing company I know of can provide a similar balance of
sound quality, power, and affordability"
This is obviously OSAF.
If this were restated:
" It is my opinion that no competing company I know of can provide a
similar balance of sound quality, power, and affordability"
then a potential fraud would be avoided.
"In the world of high performance audio, Adcom has done the
impossible: make state-of-the-art components that are easy to use at
an affordable price. In doing this, Adcom has created a revolution
in the world of high-end audio. By creating some of the most
renowned components and offering them at affordable prices, Adcom
has enabled more people to hear the details of their favorite
music."
Anybody who claims to do the impossible is making an obvious false
claim. If taken to task for this, the defense might be that the
claim is obviously hyperbole, and not really a factual claim. IMO,
this is deceptive. We seem to wink at things like this in our
society. I can live with it.
Bryston
"Bryston Limited is a Canadian company which has been designing and
manufacturing state of the art specialty electronics to both the
professional and consumer audio marketplaces for over a quarter
century."
"Bryston has a major commitment to produce the most accurate and
reliable product available. We maintain an extensive research and
development division which is constantly looking for ways to improve
the performance, value and reliability of our products. We offer a
full 20 Year transferable warranty, parts and labour, on all our
products."
"In the professional market we offer amplifiers for recording
studios, radio and television broadcast facilities and sound
reinforcement applications such as stadiums and arenas etc. In the
consumer market we manufacture state of the art audio electronics
intended to provide the owner with the most musically accurate and
reliable performance available. Our Service Centres contact
information can be found here. Follow the latest news on products in
the Bryston Newsletter ."
I find it hard to fault any of these claims. A real stickler could
could the phrase "intended to provide" in the last paragraph "weasel
words", but in the world of audio this is so relatively mild that
IMO doing so would be unreasonable.
Rotel
http://www.rotel.com/html/balance.html
"The Rotel components described here are truly exceptional."
"Every one -- CD players, preamplifiers, surround sound processors,
power amplifiers -- brings you the audible benefits of something we
call Balanced Design."
"Balanced Design isn't just an abstract concept. Or a new phrase for
"weird science." Balanced Design is a disciplined synthesis of
physics, electronics, and mechanical engineering guided by our firm
belief that the best need not be the most costly."
IMO, exhuberant, a bit hypey, but hard to fault. Hey, it is
advertising.
The most questionable thing I found on the site was reference to
"slit British capacitors", whatever they are, and whatever audible
difference they could make.
Sunfire:
http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/sunfiresub/index.html is linked
directly out of a graphic at http://www.sunfire.com/ without a clue
on http://www.sunfire.com/ that it is not part of
http://www.sunfire.com/ . Therefore, it seems fair to treat it as
part of http://www.sunfire.com/ .
"The Sunfire True Subwoofer is housed in an 11" cube, powered by a
built-in 2,700 watt amplifier with two 8" drivers on either side of
the enclosure. It is rated flat down to 18 Hz, reproducing ultra low
bass frequencies at 110 dB SPL. "
There is that old 2,700 watt claim again. I believe that "ultra low
bass frequencies" could be interpreted as a claim that the subwoofer
puts out 20 Hz (or lower) 110 dB with less than 10% distortion,
which I seem to recall not being readily proven with technical
tests.
> BTW, since most amplifier manufacturers don't post to these boards
we
> don't really know what their positions are and can only judge them
based
> on their advertising/marketing.
So, going to their web sites seems like a reasonable thing to do.
> Therefore when bringing the subject of
> Dunlavy and his advertising/marketing into the comparisons, I
think we
> should just use his promotional literature (e.g. website, magazine
ads
> etc.) to ensure a level comparison.
Umm, Mr Campbell, I've just been there and done that, and found that
of your list of vendors, Adcom and Sunfire are making questionable
claims while Bryston and Rotel seem to be sticking pretty close to
the facts. dB Systems gets extra points for not only sticking close
to the facts, but also clearly presenting facts that might be new
knowlege to many audiophiles who already think they are knowlegable.
Nexus 6
(stephen campbell) wrote:
>Howard wrote:
>
>>Spending more than what the models
>>made by those companies cost would
>>mean that you are overpaying for your
>>amp.
>
>Maybe, but you have already stated that overpriced does not neccessarily
>equal scam by con artist (re. Dunlavy), so tell me again why an
>overpriced(IYO) amp is a scam.
An added (note) Note:
Bryston amps can come in at pretty hefty prices. High enough
that the vast majority of *all* amplifiers from most high
end companies fall beneath the most expensive Bryston.
So what the hell is Howard on about anyway?
Nexus 6
======================
"No more miracles
Loaves and fishes
Been so busy
With the washing of the dishes"
Howard Ferstler
>
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 03:03:45 -0500 (EST), Camf...@webtv.net
> (stephen campbell) wrote:
>
> >Howard wrote:
> >>Spending more than what the models
> >>made by those companies cost would
> >>mean that you are overpaying for your
> >>amp.
> >Maybe, but you have already stated that overpriced does not neccessarily
> >equal scam by con artist (re. Dunlavy), so tell me again why an
> >overpriced(IYO) amp is a scam.
> An added (note) Note:
>
> Bryston amps can come in at pretty hefty prices. High enough
> that the vast majority of *all* amplifiers from most high
> end companies fall beneath the most expensive Bryston.
>
> So what the hell is Howard on about anyway?
In my review of a Bryston/Lexicon amp for The Sensible
Sound, I acknowledged its quality, and then noted that amps
by NAD, ATI, and a number of outfits were probably just as
good (I believe that I indicated that the NAD, like the
Bryston/Lexicon was also THX certified), and were available
at a lower price.
I do not believe that Bryston amps are in the same price
category as typical Krell amps and the like.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> Howard wrote:
>
> >Spending more than what the models
> >made by those companies cost would
> >mean that you are overpaying for your
> >amp.
>
> Maybe, but you have already stated that overpriced does not neccessarily
> equal scam by con artist (re. Dunlavy), so tell me again why an
> overpriced(IYO) amp is a scam.
>
I believe that Mr. Dunlavy has made it pretty clear why he
produced his wires and he has come right out and said that
good-old heavy wire (12-gauge stranded) works just fine with
his speakers. He has been similarly candid about
interconnects.
His wire appears to be an exercise in gilding the lily, and
I believe he has pretty much indicated just that. In a way,
it is like the super-low distortion we find with Velodyne
subwoofers.
Other outfits that make ultra-expensive wire (and
ultra-expensive amps, too) rarely if ever say that their
stuff is just a technical exercise. Most claim that it
sounds demonstrably better than the competition.
You will not usually find them actually and scientifically
demonstrating that demonstrability, however.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> I asked:
>
> If there are amplifiers with better measurements
> than the ones you mentioned, isn't that a valid reason for paying more
> to own them?
>
>
> Nope. I suggest that you find some copies of my last two books and read
> them.
>
> you on why you don't consider Dunlavy's wire a scam or him a con artist.
> you think Dunlavy's wires are overpriced but still fall short of calling
> does your position change when it comes to amplifiers? Why is a consumer
> a "jerk" for buying a high priced amp if it has superior measured
> performance? Why do you now call this a scam?
Dunlavy has come out and said that his wires are a technical
exercise for hair splitters. He does not claim that they are
audibly better than good-old heavy wire. I believe that most
other wire manufacturers (as well as manufacturers of exotic
and expensive amps) will regularly make a habit of claiming
the demonstrably superior performance of their products.
Dunlavy does not do that with his wire. He does do that with
his speakers, and for good reason.
> I suspect that your response will reference the marketing of these
> products as the basis for your claims of scamming. You will probably
> repeat what you said to the dave, that you don't consider Dunlavy's
> "overpriced" wire a scam, or him a fraud because of the position he
> takes on these boards.
Dunlavy has explained his views. The others have not.
> Well I would like you to give me specific examples of the
> advertising/marketing of the amplifier companies that you consider con
> artists and guilty of scamming the consumer, and compare this to the
> advertising of the companies you mentioned earlier i.e. Adcom, Bryston,
> Rotel, Sunfire etc., that you don't consider scams. Could you please
> outline the differences between them.
Sure, the ones I noted have generally lower prices. However,
even when I reviewed a Bryston/Lexicon amp for The Sensible
Sound (and acknowledged its virtues), I noted that there
were competitive brands that were just as good and cost
less. Go read the review if you want the details.
> BTW, since most amplifier manufacturers don't post to these boards we
> don't really know what their positions are and can only judge them based
> on their advertising/marketing. Therefore when bringing the subject of
> Dunlavy and his advertising/marketing into the comparisons, I think we
> should just use his promotional literature (e.g. website, magazine ads
> etc.) to ensure a level comparison.
I believe that posting the details here is something that a
manufacture will do if he wants to clarify the issues. I
have no doubt that quite a few manufacturers (particularly
the small-company builders of esoteric hardware) have at
least heard of RAO and have looked over what is being said.
Most just are afraid to get into the fray. Dunlavy has not
been.
He is one of the few who has clarified his views. The other
outfits just keep right on marketing the old-fashioned way.
There is no way any of those guys are going to show up here
and downplay the performance of their hardware, and if they
tried to defend its superiority, the rational crowd would be
on them like white corpuscles during an infection.
Howard Ferstler
Powell
"Howard Ferstler" wrote
> I believe that Mr. Dunlavy has made it pretty
> clear...
>
Always quoting and copying other peoples
work... perhaps you might try doing some of
your own, mr lazy boy.
Howard Ferstler
> I would rather snip my Achilles' tendons with a pair of needlenose pliers than
> to ask you for your opinion on what to buy. What a gargantuan cop-out that is,
> Howard. It is a transparent effort on your part to hide the fact that you have
> no experience with audio scams or gimmicky products. You are merely parroting
> from what others have said. You have no real opinions of your own, do you?
>
> Boon
Read my books and published magazine essays and reviews.
Then tell me if I have real opinions, or not.
By the way, what are your opinions on amps, wires, etc.? You
claim that I am afraid to say. OK, show us how brave you
are.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
>
> Idiot. Look at the post. I do have Howard killfiled.. But if someone else
> includes his post in a reply (like some other idiot did not like),
> I can't resist.
Me? I have killfiled nobody. I want to see all sides and all
opinions. That is how you learn.
Howard Ferstler
Dr. B. J. Feng
>
> Marc Phillips wrote:
>
> > I would rather snip my Achilles' tendons with a pair of needlenose pliers than
> >
> > Boon
>
> Read my books and published magazine essays and reviews.
> Then tell me if I have real opinions, or not.
That is to say, your posts here in rao do not contain your
real opinions?
;-)
John F.
Jon Lane
Howard Ferstler wrote
>OK, show us how brave you are.
The schoolyard grows quiet...
JL
Howard Ferstler
RAO is a shooting gallery. I think that nearly everyone here
tends to overstate their respective cases, and few are on
their best behavior.
You may have missed it, but I had a piece published in The
Audiophile Voice on Usenet, and it dealt with RAO in
particular. The essay caused enough of a stir (we got some
nasty comments about it right here, needless to say) for
John Atkinson to go to the trouble to scan it into his
computer and then pay his professional proofreader to spot
all the grammatical and syntax errors he felt it contained.
John then sent me a copy of the proofer's comments, with the
intention no doubt being to somehow humble me. (He failed to
realize that the final form of the essay was determined by
the magazine's editor, Gene Pitts.) Rather than deal with
the content of the essay, he decided to deal with the form
of my writing and unwittingly critiqued Gene's editing
abilities.
Howard Ferstler