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Subwoofer amplifiers
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Barkingspyder
Oct 21, 2012, 6:23:10 PM10/21/12
to
Anyone have any opinion on what sort of amp might be best to power a subwoofer. Plate amps are certainly the apparent popular choice, but pro power amps especially the Inuke line from Behringer look very inviting. All the features one would get from a high powered plate amp, class D operation, and more flexible xover and parametric EQ, plus a lower price tag. Not that price is the sole determining factor, there is the matter of reliability.
Audio_Empire
Oct 21, 2012, 10:41:01 PM10/21/12
to
In article <aejaue...@mid.individual.net>,
I have a Behringer A-500 power amp and while I've never used it for a
subwoofer amp, I see no reason why it wouldn't be perfect for that duty.
As far as I know, all Behringer amps are bridgeable to produce
prodigious amounts of power. Mine has been used to power my Martin-Logan
full range hybrid electrostats, with good results. The amp is rugged,
reliable and cheap (the A-500s sold for about US$200 each. Can't do much
better than that for 160 Watts/channel at 8-Ohms and bridgeable to over
400 Watts mono.). I must say that I have no experience with Begringer's
current line of Amps except for the A-500 (which is still sold), but if
it's any indication, the rest are just fine. Another company that makes
studio monitor amps and "sound reinforcement" amps that might be worth a
look is the Crown line. Crown has been making robust, well made
professional solid state amps for-seemingly-ever and have a great
reputation.
subwoofer amp, I see no reason why it wouldn't be perfect for that duty.
As far as I know, all Behringer amps are bridgeable to produce
prodigious amounts of power. Mine has been used to power my Martin-Logan
full range hybrid electrostats, with good results. The amp is rugged,
reliable and cheap (the A-500s sold for about US$200 each. Can't do much
better than that for 160 Watts/channel at 8-Ohms and bridgeable to over
400 Watts mono.). I must say that I have no experience with Begringer's
current line of Amps except for the A-500 (which is still sold), but if
it's any indication, the rest are just fine. Another company that makes
studio monitor amps and "sound reinforcement" amps that might be worth a
look is the Crown line. Crown has been making robust, well made
professional solid state amps for-seemingly-ever and have a great
reputation.
Barkingspyder
Oct 23, 2012, 7:07:33 AM10/23/12
to
On Sunday, October 21, 2012 7:42:12 PM UTC-7, Audio_Empire wrote:
> In article <aejaue...@mid.individual.net>,
>
> In article <aejaue...@mid.individual.net>,
>
I have one small quibble with Behringer insofar as the specs they quyote in the ads don't line up with the specs in the owners manual.
The lowest power amp in the Inuke line will pump out 750 Watts rms in bridged mono at 4 ohms. The thing can be had for $270.00 USD. I think I'm getting a jones for this thing. Looking forward to my tax refund. :-) Take a look here: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU3000DSP.aspx I do not work for Behringer or any place that sells their gear, just thought this stuff looked good enough to share and for the price if it turned out to be less than expected one would not be doing the kind of harm to one's wallet they would with so called high end gear. YMMV.
Howard Davis
Oct 23, 2012, 2:02:35 PM10/23/12
to
A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for driving
a subwoofer.
I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying the
designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a lower
price than the originals.
A tube amp for a subwoofer? FORGET ABOUT IT!
No practical tube-based amp has the necessary low frequency power bandwidth
to function down to 16Hz or lower as well as it does in the midrange and
high end.
a subwoofer.
I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying the
designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a lower
price than the originals.
A tube amp for a subwoofer? FORGET ABOUT IT!
No practical tube-based amp has the necessary low frequency power bandwidth
to function down to 16Hz or lower as well as it does in the midrange and
high end.
Arny Krueger
Oct 23, 2012, 6:33:23 PM10/23/12
to
"Barkingspyder" <kmck...@roadrunner.com> wrote in message
news:aejaue...@mid.individual.net...
I favor not putting the sub in the box with the woofer, even though SS is
very tolerant of the vibration. There are limits to the heat that the plate
design can dissipate.
IME subwoofer amps break the pattern of the use that we see with other amps
in the system, in that subwoofer amps are more likely to see continuous sine
waves that can really heat things up and suck power. Depending on your
choice of driver, 2 ohm loads are possible.
> All the features one would get from a high powered plate amp, class D
> operation, and more flexible xover and parametric EQ, plus a lower price
> tag. Not
> that price is the sole determining factor, there is the matter of
> reliability.
I'm definitely capitalizing on the DSP/EQ in the XTi 2000. Its locked down
until I plug it into the USB port of my laptop.
I'll leave it to you to figure out if the alternative you're looking at is
comparable.
I'm happy to encourage you in this project because I think your basic
direction is well, sound. ;-)
news:aejaue...@mid.individual.net...
> Anyone have any opinion on what sort of amp might be best to power a
> subwoofer. Plate amps are certainly the apparent popular choice, but pro
> power
> amps especially the Inuke line from Behringer look very inviting.
My biggest subwoofer is powered by a Crown XTi 2000.
> subwoofer. Plate amps are certainly the apparent popular choice, but pro
> power
> amps especially the Inuke line from Behringer look very inviting.
I favor not putting the sub in the box with the woofer, even though SS is
very tolerant of the vibration. There are limits to the heat that the plate
design can dissipate.
IME subwoofer amps break the pattern of the use that we see with other amps
in the system, in that subwoofer amps are more likely to see continuous sine
waves that can really heat things up and suck power. Depending on your
choice of driver, 2 ohm loads are possible.
> All the features one would get from a high powered plate amp, class D
> operation, and more flexible xover and parametric EQ, plus a lower price
> tag. Not
> that price is the sole determining factor, there is the matter of
> reliability.
until I plug it into the USB port of my laptop.
I'll leave it to you to figure out if the alternative you're looking at is
comparable.
I'm happy to encourage you in this project because I think your basic
direction is well, sound. ;-)
Audio_Empire
Oct 23, 2012, 6:34:27 PM10/23/12
to
In article <aenc3k...@mid.individual.net>,
Barkingspyder <kmck...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU3000DSP.aspx
I'm not too fond of the combo 1/4-inch phone-jack/pro twist-to-connect
speaker terminals supplied on the Behringer NU3000DSP, and would have
preferred that they supplied a set of 5-way binding posts for that
chore. The A500 has both 5-way terminals (which will take standard
banana plugs if you pry out the cover "buttons" that cap them) and
1/4-inch phone jacks for speakers. The problem with phone jacks for
speaker cables is that it's hard to wire-up phone plugs to accommodate
wire much heavier than about 18-gauge, and good quality "home audio
grade" speakers should be wired with at least 14-gauge zip cord. And if
you buy into the dedicated speaker wire nonsense that has one using
speaker cables that are the size of an infant's leg, then, with phone
plugs for amplifier end termination, you're fresh out of luck. These
twist-on "pro" speaker connectors aren't any better in this regard. When
you look at how they are designed, you'll see that they don't play well
with heavy-gauge speaker wire any better than the phone plugs do. Of
course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with these pro
twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd need to have a
speaker that took them too, and I've never seen a domestic speaker
system that used them.
I don't mind the combo XLR/ 1/4-inch balanced phone plug inputs on this
amp because a pair of female-RCA-to-male-XLR adapters are certainly
cheap enough and easy to find at practically any guitar store, but
again, the A500 has all three - gold plated RCAs, 1/4-inch balanced
phone jacks, and balanced XLRs.
Barkingspyder <kmck...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU3000DSP.aspx
I'm not too fond of the combo 1/4-inch phone-jack/pro twist-to-connect
speaker terminals supplied on the Behringer NU3000DSP, and would have
preferred that they supplied a set of 5-way binding posts for that
chore. The A500 has both 5-way terminals (which will take standard
banana plugs if you pry out the cover "buttons" that cap them) and
1/4-inch phone jacks for speakers. The problem with phone jacks for
speaker cables is that it's hard to wire-up phone plugs to accommodate
wire much heavier than about 18-gauge, and good quality "home audio
grade" speakers should be wired with at least 14-gauge zip cord. And if
you buy into the dedicated speaker wire nonsense that has one using
speaker cables that are the size of an infant's leg, then, with phone
plugs for amplifier end termination, you're fresh out of luck. These
twist-on "pro" speaker connectors aren't any better in this regard. When
you look at how they are designed, you'll see that they don't play well
with heavy-gauge speaker wire any better than the phone plugs do. Of
course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with these pro
twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd need to have a
speaker that took them too, and I've never seen a domestic speaker
system that used them.
I don't mind the combo XLR/ 1/4-inch balanced phone plug inputs on this
amp because a pair of female-RCA-to-male-XLR adapters are certainly
cheap enough and easy to find at practically any guitar store, but
again, the A500 has all three - gold plated RCAs, 1/4-inch balanced
phone jacks, and balanced XLRs.
Audio_Empire
Oct 23, 2012, 6:35:09 PM10/23/12
to
In article <aeo4dr...@mid.individual.net>,
necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've never seen any of their
products as copies of anyone else's. Now a lot of their products are
very similar to product sold under the Alesis and/or Peavy name, but I
understand that's because they are all three built in China by the same
parent company
> A tube amp for a subwoofer? FORGET ABOUT IT!
Yeah, not a great idea. You can get far better bottom end performance
much cheaper with a solid state power amp for subwoofers.
> No practical tube-based amp has the necessary low frequency power bandwidth
> to function down to 16Hz or lower as well as it does in the midrange and
> high end.
While there are tube amps that would fulfill this function (like the VTL
Siegfried, for instance), the operative word here is "practical".
"Howard Davis" <howard...@att.net> wrote:
> A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for driving
> a subwoofer.
>
> I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying the
> designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a lower
> price than the originals.
Could you please cite one example where they have done this? I'm not
> A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for driving
> a subwoofer.
>
> I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying the
> designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a lower
> price than the originals.
necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've never seen any of their
products as copies of anyone else's. Now a lot of their products are
very similar to product sold under the Alesis and/or Peavy name, but I
understand that's because they are all three built in China by the same
parent company
> A tube amp for a subwoofer? FORGET ABOUT IT!
much cheaper with a solid state power amp for subwoofers.
> No practical tube-based amp has the necessary low frequency power bandwidth
> to function down to 16Hz or lower as well as it does in the midrange and
> high end.
Siegfried, for instance), the operative word here is "practical".
Adam Sampson
Oct 24, 2012, 10:14:25 AM10/24/12
to
Audio_Empire <audio_...@comcast.net> writes:
> Of course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with
> these pro twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd
> need to have a speaker that took them too,
If you have an amp with Speakon connectors and speakers with binding
> Of course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with
> these pro twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd
> need to have a speaker that took them too,
posts, then an easier option would be to buy a single Speakon-Speakon
cable that's twice as long as you need, and cut it in half. ;-)
(I'd certainly rather deal with Speakons than bare wires or jack plugs,
particularly in any circumstance where heavy-gauge cable is necessary!
But it's worth buying the proper Neutrik connectors rather than the
cheaper clones, since some of the latter really aren't very well-made --
and the price difference isn't huge anyway...)
--
Adam Sampson <a...@offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
Howard Davis
Oct 24, 2012, 2:02:40 PM10/24/12
to
"Audio_Empire" <audio_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:k6762...@news4.newsguy.com...
delay guitar pedal for Electro-Harmonix. Behringer has a cheaper clone of it
now on the market. It's no skin off my back as I get no royalties on sales,
but if I were the manufacturer I would certainly consider legal action
against Behringer. I personallly evaluated the Behringer product's
circuitry, and it is clearly a cheapened copy of my Deluxe Memory Man.
> I'm not
> necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've never seen any of their
> products as copies of anyone else's. Now a lot of their products are
> very similar to product sold under the Alesis and/or Peavy name, but I
> understand that's because they are all three built in China by the same
> parent company
Behringer has no scruples about copying other company's products when they
think they can get away with it.
news:k6762...@news4.newsguy.com...
> In article <aeo4dr...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Howard Davis" <howard...@att.net> wrote:
>
>> A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for
>> driving
>> a subwoofer.
>>
>> I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying
>> the
>> designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a
>> lower
>> price than the originals.
>
> Could you please cite one example where they have done this?
Certainly. I am the engineer that designed the Deluxe Memory Man analog
> "Howard Davis" <howard...@att.net> wrote:
>
>> A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for
>> driving
>> a subwoofer.
>>
>> I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying
>> the
>> designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a
>> lower
>> price than the originals.
>
> Could you please cite one example where they have done this?
delay guitar pedal for Electro-Harmonix. Behringer has a cheaper clone of it
now on the market. It's no skin off my back as I get no royalties on sales,
but if I were the manufacturer I would certainly consider legal action
against Behringer. I personallly evaluated the Behringer product's
circuitry, and it is clearly a cheapened copy of my Deluxe Memory Man.
> I'm not
> necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've never seen any of their
> products as copies of anyone else's. Now a lot of their products are
> very similar to product sold under the Alesis and/or Peavy name, but I
> understand that's because they are all three built in China by the same
> parent company
think they can get away with it.
Barkingspyder
Oct 24, 2012, 5:42:55 PM10/24/12
to
Barkingspyder
Oct 24, 2012, 5:43:01 PM10/24/12
to
On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 3:35:03 PM UTC-7, Audio_Empire wrote:
> In article <aenc3k...@mid.individual.net>,
>
> In article <aenc3k...@mid.individual.net>,
>
Audio_Empire
Oct 24, 2012, 7:27:17 PM10/24/12
to
In article <aeqbe1...@mid.individual.net>,
Then you could terminate the cut ends to match your speaker's needs.
give you a very positive speaker connection makes a good case for Hi-Fi
manufacturers of both amps and speakers to standardize on them. Of
course, if you did that, then the $1K-a-foot speaker wire charlatans
would start making Speakon cables that are priced like fine Tiffany
jewelry.
Adam Sampson <a...@offog.org> wrote:
> Audio_Empire <audio_...@comcast.net> writes:
>
> > Of course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with
> > these pro twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd
> > need to have a speaker that took them too,
>
> If you have an amp with Speakon connectors and speakers with binding
> posts, then an easier option would be to buy a single Speakon-Speakon
> cable that's twice as long as you need, and cut it in half. ;-)
I thought about that after I posted. Yeah that would certainly work.
> Audio_Empire <audio_...@comcast.net> writes:
>
> > Of course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with
> > these pro twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd
> > need to have a speaker that took them too,
>
> If you have an amp with Speakon connectors and speakers with binding
> posts, then an easier option would be to buy a single Speakon-Speakon
> cable that's twice as long as you need, and cut it in half. ;-)
Then you could terminate the cut ends to match your speaker's needs.
>
> (I'd certainly rather deal with Speakons than bare wires or jack plugs,
> particularly in any circumstance where heavy-gauge cable is necessary!
> But it's worth buying the proper Neutrik connectors rather than the
> cheaper clones, since some of the latter really aren't very well-made --
> and the price difference isn't huge anyway...)
Precisely. The fact that the Speakon cables are really inexpensive and
> (I'd certainly rather deal with Speakons than bare wires or jack plugs,
> particularly in any circumstance where heavy-gauge cable is necessary!
> But it's worth buying the proper Neutrik connectors rather than the
> cheaper clones, since some of the latter really aren't very well-made --
> and the price difference isn't huge anyway...)
give you a very positive speaker connection makes a good case for Hi-Fi
manufacturers of both amps and speakers to standardize on them. Of
course, if you did that, then the $1K-a-foot speaker wire charlatans
would start making Speakon cables that are priced like fine Tiffany
jewelry.
Barkingspyder
Oct 24, 2012, 7:30:50 PM10/24/12
to
On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 3:34:02 PM UTC-7, Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Barkingspyder" wrote in message
Nice to have my opinion confirmed by an expert. :-)
> "Barkingspyder" wrote in message
Audio_Empire
Oct 24, 2012, 7:31:55 PM10/24/12
to
In article <aeqoq0...@mid.individual.net>,
I'll take your word for it. Not being a musician who uses electronic
instruments such as electric guitars, I would have no way of knowing
about their music products (for instance, I don't even know what a
Deluxe Memory Man analog delay guitar pedal is), I only know about their
recording products (microphones, A/D converters, recording consoles) and
their monitoring products (near-field speakers. amplifiers). And I must
say that aside from their similarity to other products of the same vein,
I've never particularly noticed any blatant piracy or theft. How do you
tell if a microphone is a copy of some-one else's microphone anyway? The
entire Chinese condenser microphone industry is based upon the Chinese,
during the years when they were closed-off from the rest of the world,
blatantly copying Neumann, Telefunken, AKG, and Sennheiser microphones
for their own use - Even the Russians used to do that.
Ray Dolby tells the story of a trip to Moscow he made in the late 1970's
where he was taken to a local Orthodox church that had been
"re-purposed" into a state-owned 'Melodya' recording studio. He saw
banks of Dolby "A" noise reduction units that he could tell his company
never built or sold, a number of multi-track Studer tape recorders that
were too crudely made to have been REAL Studers and a forest of Neumann
mikes with Russian name-plates on them. When he asked his state-provided
guide about this, he was told that the government wouldn't allow
industries to use Western, capitalist built equipment and everything
must be domestically produced or purchased from other Iron Curtain
countries. Dolby asked how they got plans for the Dolby "A" units , and
the guide rather sheepishly responded that they had one of their agents
buy a real Dolby unit in West Berlin and they shipped it to "The
People's Electronics Bureau" in the Soviet Union where it was
reverse-engineered. There was nothing Ray Dolby could do about it since
the Russians had no copyright agreements with any Western nation
(neither did the Red Chinese).
instruments such as electric guitars, I would have no way of knowing
about their music products (for instance, I don't even know what a
Deluxe Memory Man analog delay guitar pedal is), I only know about their
recording products (microphones, A/D converters, recording consoles) and
their monitoring products (near-field speakers. amplifiers). And I must
say that aside from their similarity to other products of the same vein,
I've never particularly noticed any blatant piracy or theft. How do you
tell if a microphone is a copy of some-one else's microphone anyway? The
entire Chinese condenser microphone industry is based upon the Chinese,
during the years when they were closed-off from the rest of the world,
blatantly copying Neumann, Telefunken, AKG, and Sennheiser microphones
for their own use - Even the Russians used to do that.
Ray Dolby tells the story of a trip to Moscow he made in the late 1970's
where he was taken to a local Orthodox church that had been
"re-purposed" into a state-owned 'Melodya' recording studio. He saw
banks of Dolby "A" noise reduction units that he could tell his company
never built or sold, a number of multi-track Studer tape recorders that
were too crudely made to have been REAL Studers and a forest of Neumann
mikes with Russian name-plates on them. When he asked his state-provided
guide about this, he was told that the government wouldn't allow
industries to use Western, capitalist built equipment and everything
must be domestically produced or purchased from other Iron Curtain
countries. Dolby asked how they got plans for the Dolby "A" units , and
the guide rather sheepishly responded that they had one of their agents
buy a real Dolby unit in West Berlin and they shipped it to "The
People's Electronics Bureau" in the Soviet Union where it was
reverse-engineered. There was nothing Ray Dolby could do about it since
the Russians had no copyright agreements with any Western nation
(neither did the Red Chinese).
Audio_Empire
Oct 24, 2012, 7:32:40 PM10/24/12
to
In article <aer5mv...@mid.individual.net>,
They can be great for GP hi-fi amps too, but they are a terrible value
compared with solid-state amps. In fact to get a tube amp that is as
neutral as a good solid-state amplifier you would have to pay a LOT more
than the cost of an SS equivalent. Even then you're likely to have quite
a bit less power. But make no mistake, a VTL Siegfried, or an Audio
Research REFERENCE 750 tube amp (to name but two) is every bit as
neutral as a the best SS designs, even if they are pricey (the VTL
Siegfried II is $65,000 a pair, and a pair of Audio Research REF-750's
is about $90,000. Decent solid state amps of the same power as these
above mentioned tube amps can be had for less than 1/10 of those prices.
compared with solid-state amps. In fact to get a tube amp that is as
neutral as a good solid-state amplifier you would have to pay a LOT more
than the cost of an SS equivalent. Even then you're likely to have quite
a bit less power. But make no mistake, a VTL Siegfried, or an Audio
Research REFERENCE 750 tube amp (to name but two) is every bit as
neutral as a the best SS designs, even if they are pricey (the VTL
Siegfried II is $65,000 a pair, and a pair of Audio Research REF-750's
is about $90,000. Decent solid state amps of the same power as these
above mentioned tube amps can be had for less than 1/10 of those prices.
Audio_Empire
Oct 24, 2012, 7:32:12 PM10/24/12
to
In article <aer5n5...@mid.individual.net>,
Someone else had the perfect solution for you, then. Buy the Behringer
NU3000 and then purchase a Speakon-to-Speakon cable from someplace such
as the Guitar Center (you can get either 14 or 12 Gauge speaker wire
terminated with Speakon connectors) for about thirty bucks and then cut
it in half and terminate the cut ends with whatever connectors your
speakers require.
NU3000 and then purchase a Speakon-to-Speakon cable from someplace such
as the Guitar Center (you can get either 14 or 12 Gauge speaker wire
terminated with Speakon connectors) for about thirty bucks and then cut
it in half and terminate the cut ends with whatever connectors your
speakers require.
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