Anyone have any opinion on what sort of amp might be best to power a subwoofer. Plate amps are certainly the apparent popular choice, but pro power amps especially the Inuke line from Behringer look very inviting. All the features one would get from a high powered plate amp, class D operation, and more flexible xover and parametric EQ, plus a lower price tag. Not that price is the sole determining factor, there is the matter of reliability.
Barkingspyder <kmcke...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Anyone have any opinion on what sort of amp might be best to power a > subwoofer. Plate amps are certainly the apparent popular choice, but pro > power amps especially the Inuke line from Behringer look very inviting. All > the features one would get from a high powered plate amp, class D operation, > and more flexible xover and parametric EQ, plus a lower price tag. Not that > price is the sole determining factor, there is the matter of reliability.
I have a Behringer A-500 power amp and while I've never used it for a subwoofer amp, I see no reason why it wouldn't be perfect for that duty. As far as I know, all Behringer amps are bridgeable to produce prodigious amounts of power. Mine has been used to power my Martin-Logan full range hybrid electrostats, with good results. The amp is rugged, reliable and cheap (the A-500s sold for about US$200 each. Can't do much better than that for 160 Watts/channel at 8-Ohms and bridgeable to over 400 Watts mono.). I must say that I have no experience with Begringer's
current line of Amps except for the A-500 (which is still sold), but if it's any indication, the rest are just fine. Another company that makes studio monitor amps and "sound reinforcement" amps that might be worth a look is the Crown line. Crown has been making robust, well made professional solid state amps for-seemingly-ever and have a great reputation.
On Sunday, October 21, 2012 7:42:12 PM UTC-7, Audio_Empire wrote:
> In article <aejaueFeeu...@mid.individual.net>,
> Barkingspyder wrote:
> > Anyone have any opinion on what sort of amp might be best to power a
> > subwoofer. Plate amps are certainly the apparent popular choice, but pro
> > power amps especially the Inuke line from Behringer look very inviting. All
> > the features one would get from a high powered plate amp, class D operation,
> > and more flexible xover and parametric EQ, plus a lower price tag. Not that
> > price is the sole determining factor, there is the matter of reliability.
> I have a Behringer A-500 power amp and while I've never used it for a
> subwoofer amp, I see no reason why it wouldn't be perfect for that duty.
> As far as I know, all Behringer amps are bridgeable to produce
> prodigious amounts of power. Mine has been used to power my Martin-Logan
> full range hybrid electrostats, with good results. The amp is rugged,
> reliable and cheap (the A-500s sold for about US$200 each. Can't do much
> better than that for 160 Watts/channel at 8-Ohms and bridgeable to over
> 400 Watts mono.). I must say that I have no experience with Begringer's
> current line of Amps except for the A-500 (which is still sold), but if
> it's any indication, the rest are just fine. Another company that makes
> studio monitor amps and "sound reinforcement" amps that might be worth a
> look is the Crown line. Crown has been making robust, well made
> professional solid state amps for-seemingly-ever and have a great
> reputation.
I have read about the A500 and saw a review of it from TAC which was overall favorable. The Inuke line they have now combines boatloads of power via Class D operation as well as DSP functions including dynamic and Parametric EQ, which is what I was really after to tame a nasty 10 db peak in my room at 50 Hz.
I have one small quibble with Behringer insofar as the specs they quyote in the ads don't line up with the specs in the owners manual.
The lowest power amp in the Inuke line will pump out 750 Watts rms in bridged mono at 4 ohms. The thing can be had for $270.00 USD. I think I'm getting a jones for this thing. Looking forward to my tax refund. :-) Take a look here: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU3000DSP.aspx I do not work for Behringer or any place that sells their gear, just thought this stuff looked good enough to share and for the price if it turned out to be less than expected one would not be doing the kind of harm to one's wallet they would with so called high end gear. YMMV.
A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for driving a subwoofer.
I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying the designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a lower price than the originals.
A tube amp for a subwoofer? FORGET ABOUT IT!
No practical tube-based amp has the necessary low frequency power bandwidth to function down to 16Hz or lower as well as it does in the midrange and high end.
> Anyone have any opinion on what sort of amp might be best to power a > subwoofer. Plate amps are certainly the apparent popular choice, but pro > power
> amps especially the Inuke line from Behringer look very inviting.
My biggest subwoofer is powered by a Crown XTi 2000.
I favor not putting the sub in the box with the woofer, even though SS is very tolerant of the vibration. There are limits to the heat that the plate design can dissipate.
IME subwoofer amps break the pattern of the use that we see with other amps in the system, in that subwoofer amps are more likely to see continuous sine waves that can really heat things up and suck power. Depending on your choice of driver, 2 ohm loads are possible.
> All the features one would get from a high powered plate amp, class D > operation, and more flexible xover and parametric EQ, plus a lower price > tag. Not
> that price is the sole determining factor, there is the matter of > reliability.
I'm definitely capitalizing on the DSP/EQ in the XTi 2000. Its locked down until I plug it into the USB port of my laptop.
I'll leave it to you to figure out if the alternative you're looking at is comparable.
I'm happy to encourage you in this project because I think your basic direction is well, sound. ;-)
I'm not too fond of the combo 1/4-inch phone-jack/pro twist-to-connect speaker terminals supplied on the Behringer NU3000DSP, and would have preferred that they supplied a set of 5-way binding posts for that chore. The A500 has both 5-way terminals (which will take standard banana plugs if you pry out the cover "buttons" that cap them) and 1/4-inch phone jacks for speakers. The problem with phone jacks for speaker cables is that it's hard to wire-up phone plugs to accommodate wire much heavier than about 18-gauge, and good quality "home audio grade" speakers should be wired with at least 14-gauge zip cord. And if you buy into the dedicated speaker wire nonsense that has one using speaker cables that are the size of an infant's leg, then, with phone plugs for amplifier end termination, you're fresh out of luck. These twist-on "pro" speaker connectors aren't any better in this regard. When you look at how they are designed, you'll see that they don't play well with heavy-gauge speaker wire any better than the phone plugs do. Of course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with these pro twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd need to have a speaker that took them too, and I've never seen a domestic speaker system that used them.
I don't mind the combo XLR/ 1/4-inch balanced phone plug inputs on this amp because a pair of female-RCA-to-male-XLR adapters are certainly cheap enough and easy to find at practically any guitar store, but again, the A500 has all three - gold plated RCAs, 1/4-inch balanced phone jacks, and balanced XLRs.
In article <aeo4drFi6a...@mid.individual.net>,
"Howard Davis" <howard.dav...@att.net> wrote:
> A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for driving > a subwoofer.
> I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying the > designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a lower > price than the originals.
Could you please cite one example where they have done this? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've never seen any of their products as copies of anyone else's. Now a lot of their products are very similar to product sold under the Alesis and/or Peavy name, but I understand that's because they are all three built in China by the same parent company
> A tube amp for a subwoofer? FORGET ABOUT IT!
Yeah, not a great idea. You can get far better bottom end performance much cheaper with a solid state power amp for subwoofers.
> No practical tube-based amp has the necessary low frequency power bandwidth > to function down to 16Hz or lower as well as it does in the midrange and > high end.
While there are tube amps that would fulfill this function (like the VTL Siegfried, for instance), the operative word here is "practical".
Audio_Empire <audio_emp...@comcast.net> writes:
> Of course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with
> these pro twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd
> need to have a speaker that took them too,
If you have an amp with Speakon connectors and speakers with binding
posts, then an easier option would be to buy a single Speakon-Speakon
cable that's twice as long as you need, and cut it in half. ;-)
(I'd certainly rather deal with Speakons than bare wires or jack plugs,
particularly in any circumstance where heavy-gauge cable is necessary!
But it's worth buying the proper Neutrik connectors rather than the
cheaper clones, since some of the latter really aren't very well-made --
and the price difference isn't huge anyway...)
> In article <aeo4drFi6a...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Howard Davis" <howard.dav...@att.net> wrote:
>> A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for >> driving
>> a subwoofer.
>> I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying >> the
>> designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a >> lower
>> price than the originals.
> Could you please cite one example where they have done this?
Certainly. I am the engineer that designed the Deluxe Memory Man analog delay guitar pedal for Electro-Harmonix. Behringer has a cheaper clone of it now on the market. It's no skin off my back as I get no royalties on sales, but if I were the manufacturer I would certainly consider legal action against Behringer. I personallly evaluated the Behringer product's circuitry, and it is clearly a cheapened copy of my Deluxe Memory Man.
> I'm not
> necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've never seen any of their
> products as copies of anyone else's. Now a lot of their products are
> very similar to product sold under the Alesis and/or Peavy name, but I
> understand that's because they are all three built in China by the same
> parent company
Behringer has no scruples about copying other company's products when they think they can get away with it.
> Yeah, not a great idea. You can get far better bottom end performance
> much cheaper with a solid state power amp for subwoofers.
>> No practical tube-based amp has the necessary low frequency power >> bandwidth
>> to function down to 16Hz or lower as well as it does in the midrange and
>> high end.
> While there are tube amps that would fulfill this function (like the VTL
> Siegfried, for instance), the operative word here is "practical".
> I'm not too fond of the combo 1/4-inch phone-jack/pro twist-to-connect
> speaker terminals supplied on the Behringer NU3000DSP, and would have
> preferred that they supplied a set of 5-way binding posts for that
> chore. The A500 has both 5-way terminals (which will take standard
> banana plugs if you pry out the cover "buttons" that cap them) and
> 1/4-inch phone jacks for speakers. The problem with phone jacks for
> speaker cables is that it's hard to wire-up phone plugs to accommodate
> wire much heavier than about 18-gauge, and good quality "home audio
> grade" speakers should be wired with at least 14-gauge zip cord. And if
> you buy into the dedicated speaker wire nonsense that has one using
> speaker cables that are the size of an infant's leg, then, with phone
> plugs for amplifier end termination, you're fresh out of luck. These
> twist-on "pro" speaker connectors aren't any better in this regard. When
> you look at how they are designed, you'll see that they don't play well
> with heavy-gauge speaker wire any better than the phone plugs do. Of
> course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with these pro
> twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd need to have a
> speaker that took them too, and I've never seen a domestic speaker
> system that used them.
> I don't mind the combo XLR/ 1/4-inch balanced phone plug inputs on this
> amp because a pair of female-RCA-to-male-XLR adapters are certainly
> cheap enough and easy to find at practically any guitar store, but
> again, the A500 has all three - gold plated RCAs, 1/4-inch balanced
> phone jacks, and balanced XLRs.
I see no reason to be concerned about the wire gauge for the few feet I'd be running it. IIRC unless the distance is over 50 ft. 18AWG is fine. The worst that would happen is a bit of extra impedance and a tiny bump in bass response.
> > Of course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with
> > these pro twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd
> > need to have a speaker that took them too,
> If you have an amp with Speakon connectors and speakers with binding
> posts, then an easier option would be to buy a single Speakon-Speakon
> cable that's twice as long as you need, and cut it in half. ;-)
I thought about that after I posted. Yeah that would certainly work. Then you could terminate the cut ends to match your speaker's needs.
> (I'd certainly rather deal with Speakons than bare wires or jack plugs,
> particularly in any circumstance where heavy-gauge cable is necessary!
> But it's worth buying the proper Neutrik connectors rather than the
> cheaper clones, since some of the latter really aren't very well-made --
> and the price difference isn't huge anyway...)
Precisely. The fact that the Speakon cables are really inexpensive and give you a very positive speaker connection makes a good case for Hi-Fi
manufacturers of both amps and speakers to standardize on them. Of course, if you did that, then the $1K-a-foot speaker wire charlatans would start making Speakon cables that are priced like fine Tiffany jewelry.
> > Anyone have any opinion on what sort of amp might be best to power a > > subwoofer. Plate amps are certainly the apparent popular choice, but pro
> > power
> > amps especially the Inuke line from Behringer look very inviting.
> My biggest subwoofer is powered by a Crown XTi 2000.
> I favor not putting the sub in the box with the woofer, even though SS is > very tolerant of the vibration. There are limits to the heat that the plate > design can dissipate.
> IME subwoofer amps break the pattern of the use that we see with other amps > in the system, in that subwoofer amps are more likely to see continuous sine > waves that can really heat things up and suck power. Depending on your > choice of driver, 2 ohm loads are possible.
> > All the features one would get from a high powered plate amp, class D > > operation, and more flexible xover and parametric EQ, plus a lower price > > tag. Not
> > that price is the sole determining factor, there is the matter of > > reliability.
> I'm definitely capitalizing on the DSP/EQ in the XTi 2000. Its locked down > until I plug it into the USB port of my laptop.
> I'll leave it to you to figure out if the alternative you're looking at is > comparable.
> I'm happy to encourage you in this project because I think your basic > direction is well, sound. ;-)
Nice to have my opinion confirmed by an expert. :-)
> "Audio_Empire" <audio_emp...@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:k6762t01vmt@news4.newsguy.com...
> > In article <aeo4drFi6a...@mid.individual.net>,
> > "Howard Davis" <howard.dav...@att.net> wrote:
> >> A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for > >> driving
> >> a subwoofer.
> >> I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying > >> the
> >> designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a > >> lower
> >> price than the originals.
> > Could you please cite one example where they have done this?
> Certainly. I am the engineer that designed the Deluxe Memory Man analog > delay guitar pedal for Electro-Harmonix. Behringer has a cheaper clone of it > now on the market. It's no skin off my back as I get no royalties on sales, > but if I were the manufacturer I would certainly consider legal action > against Behringer. I personallly evaluated the Behringer product's > circuitry, and it is clearly a cheapened copy of my Deluxe Memory Man.
> > I'm not
> > necessarily disagreeing with you, but I've never seen any of their
> > products as copies of anyone else's. Now a lot of their products are
> > very similar to product sold under the Alesis and/or Peavy name, but I
> > understand that's because they are all three built in China by the same
> > parent company
> Behringer has no scruples about copying other company's products when they > think they can get away with it.
I'll take your word for it. Not being a musician who uses electronic instruments such as electric guitars, I would have no way of knowing about their music products (for instance, I don't even know what a Deluxe Memory Man analog delay guitar pedal is), I only know about their recording products (microphones, A/D converters, recording consoles) and their monitoring products (near-field speakers. amplifiers). And I must say that aside from their similarity to other products of the same vein, I've never particularly noticed any blatant piracy or theft. How do you tell if a microphone is a copy of some-one else's microphone anyway? The entire Chinese condenser microphone industry is based upon the Chinese, during the years when they were closed-off from the rest of the world, blatantly copying Neumann, Telefunken, AKG, and Sennheiser microphones for their own use - Even the Russians used to do that.
Ray Dolby tells the story of a trip to Moscow he made in the late 1970's where he was taken to a local Orthodox church that had been "re-purposed" into a state-owned 'Melodya' recording studio. He saw banks of Dolby "A" noise reduction units that he could tell his company never built or sold, a number of multi-track Studer tape recorders that were too crudely made to have been REAL Studers and a forest of Neumann mikes with Russian name-plates on them. When he asked his state-provided guide about this, he was told that the government wouldn't allow industries to use Western, capitalist built equipment and everything must be domestically produced or purchased from other Iron Curtain countries. Dolby asked how they got plans for the Dolby "A" units , and the guide rather sheepishly responded that they had one of their agents buy a real Dolby unit in West Berlin and they shipped it to "The People's Electronics Bureau" in the Soviet Union where it was reverse-engineered. There was nothing Ray Dolby could do about it since the Russians had no copyright agreements with any Western nation (neither did the Red Chinese).
Barkingspyder <kmcke...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 11:02:36 AM UTC-7, Howard Davis wrote:
> > A direct-coupled solid state amp, whether class D or AB, is best for > > driving
> > a subwoofer.
> > I avoid Behringer products because this company is notorious for copying > > the
> > designs of existing products, cheapening them, and selling them at a lower
> > price than the originals.
> > A tube amp for a subwoofer? FORGET ABOUT IT!
> > No practical tube-based amp has the necessary low frequency power bandwidth
> > to function down to 16Hz or lower as well as it does in the midrange and
> > high end.
> Don't know of anybody who said anything about a tube amp for a subwoofer.
> Tubes are great for guitar amps after that I have no use for them.
They can be great for GP hi-fi amps too, but they are a terrible value compared with solid-state amps. In fact to get a tube amp that is as neutral as a good solid-state amplifier you would have to pay a LOT more than the cost of an SS equivalent. Even then you're likely to have quite a bit less power. But make no mistake, a VTL Siegfried, or an Audio Research REFERENCE 750 tube amp (to name but two) is every bit as neutral as a the best SS designs, even if they are pricey (the VTL Siegfried II is $65,000 a pair, and a pair of Audio Research REF-750's is about $90,000. Decent solid state amps of the same power as these above mentioned tube amps can be had for less than 1/10 of those prices.
> > I'm not too fond of the combo 1/4-inch phone-jack/pro twist-to-connect
> > speaker terminals supplied on the Behringer NU3000DSP, and would have
> > preferred that they supplied a set of 5-way binding posts for that
> > chore. The A500 has both 5-way terminals (which will take standard
> > banana plugs if you pry out the cover "buttons" that cap them) and
> > 1/4-inch phone jacks for speakers. The problem with phone jacks for
> > speaker cables is that it's hard to wire-up phone plugs to accommodate
> > wire much heavier than about 18-gauge, and good quality "home audio
> > grade" speakers should be wired with at least 14-gauge zip cord. And if
> > you buy into the dedicated speaker wire nonsense that has one using
> > speaker cables that are the size of an infant's leg, then, with phone
> > plugs for amplifier end termination, you're fresh out of luck. These
> > twist-on "pro" speaker connectors aren't any better in this regard. When
> > you look at how they are designed, you'll see that they don't play well
> > with heavy-gauge speaker wire any better than the phone plugs do. Of
> > course, you can buy pro speaker cables already terminated with these pro
> > twist-on plugs for about US$30 for 25 ft, but then you'd need to have a
> > speaker that took them too, and I've never seen a domestic speaker
> > system that used them.
> > I don't mind the combo XLR/ 1/4-inch balanced phone plug inputs on this
> > amp because a pair of female-RCA-to-male-XLR adapters are certainly
> > cheap enough and easy to find at practically any guitar store, but
> > again, the A500 has all three - gold plated RCAs, 1/4-inch balanced
> > phone jacks, and balanced XLRs.
> I see no reason to be concerned about the wire gauge for the few feet I'd be > running it. IIRC unless the distance is over 50 ft. 18AWG is fine. The > worst that would happen is a bit of extra impedance and a tiny bump in bass > response.
Someone else had the perfect solution for you, then. Buy the Behringer NU3000 and then purchase a Speakon-to-Speakon cable from someplace such as the Guitar Center (you can get either 14 or 12 Gauge speaker wire terminated with Speakon connectors) for about thirty bucks and then cut it in half and terminate the cut ends with whatever connectors your speakers require.
