Castle - Probable Cause

JRStern

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Oct 30, 2012, 2:03:54 AM10/30/12

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Spoilers

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Certain turn-off.

I turn off pretty much any show with super-criminals, but come on
here, really?

Next week's ep looks like a lark, and that's what this show is about,
as soon as they try to get serious it folds like wet tissue paper.

J.

Rich

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Oct 30, 2012, 3:43:44 AM10/30/12

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JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote in
news:v9ru88t7idbs3pd4v...@4ax.com:

Kind of interesting they have a super criminal and Beckett's mother's
murder plot as well.

anim8rFSK

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Oct 30, 2012, 11:11:04 AM10/30/12

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In article <v9ru88t7idbs3pd4v...@4ax.com>,

At least it wasn't rubber masks. I almost gave up on NCIS years ago
when they did the rubber mask guy.

Lots and lots and lots of big stupid in this one. Alexis doesn't have
the money to do her laundry at college? Since when is Alexis on a
budget?? She's rich! Not 'James Patterson's daughter rich' but still
... our cops buddies are upset there's an APB out on Castle? WHY? You
think he's been kidnapped, maybe he has, maybe he hasn't, either way,
are you really upset that the whole police force has been alerted to
look for him? If there was ever a time for somebody to call the mayor,
this was it. You can really get to people in the holding cell leaving
NO trace? There's not even anyone within earshot? And, finally, a
chance for the Captain's dislike of Castle to be reasonable, and they
have her turn teddy bear soft first thing. And then the end literally
out of the Downey Sherlock Holmes movie??

>
> Next week's ep looks like a lark, and that's what this show is about,
> as soon as they try to get serious it folds like wet tissue paper.

Yep.

--
"Every time a Kardashian gets a TV show, an angel dies."

anim8rFSK

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Oct 30, 2012, 11:11:42 AM10/30/12

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In article <kJidnRXp5sitGBLN...@giganews.com>,

Interesting in a "please don't visit EITHER of these plots again" sort
of way.

Remysun

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Oct 30, 2012, 12:38:33 PM10/30/12

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On Oct 30, 11:11 am, anim8rFSK <anim8r...@cox.net> wrote:

> Lots and lots and lots of big stupid in this one. Alexis doesn't have
> the money to do her laundry at college? Since when is Alexis on a
> budget?? She's rich!

It's not doesn't have the money. It's doesn't want to spend it on
laundry.

> Not 'James Patterson's daughter rich' but still
> ... our cops buddies are upset there's an APB out on Castle? WHY? You
> think he's been kidnapped, maybe he has, maybe he hasn't, either way,
> are you really upset that the whole police force has been alerted to
> look for him? If there was ever a time for somebody to call the mayor,
> this was it. You can really get to people in the holding cell leaving
> NO trace? There's not even anyone within earshot?

Lots of dumb stuff. I was calling the twists all night.

> And, finally, a
> chance for the Captain's dislike of Castle to be reasonable, and they
> have her turn teddy bear soft first thing.

That's actually probably what happens. Like when the other Dodgers
started sticking up for Jackie Robinson because he was their teammate
and contractually, he was not allowed to stick up for himself.

anim8rFSK

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Oct 30, 2012, 1:29:07 PM10/30/12

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In article
<0006b5ea-bc0d-4f19...@z2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

Remysun <remys...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Oct 30, 11:11 am, anim8rFSK <anim8r...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Lots and lots and lots of big stupid in this one. Alexis doesn't have
> > the money to do her laundry at college? Since when is Alexis on a
> > budget?? She's rich!
>
> It's not doesn't have the money. It's doesn't want to spend it on
> laundry.

Like it's not costing her more to transport.

I used to bring the laundry home. The reason is 'spend time with
parental units' Which is fine, as long as *somebody* acknowledges it.

>
> > Not 'James Patterson's daughter rich' but still
> > ... our cops buddies are upset there's an APB out on Castle? WHY? You
> > think he's been kidnapped, maybe he has, maybe he hasn't, either way,
> > are you really upset that the whole police force has been alerted to
> > look for him? If there was ever a time for somebody to call the mayor,
> > this was it. You can really get to people in the holding cell leaving
> > NO trace? There's not even anyone within earshot?
>
> Lots of dumb stuff. I was calling the twists all night.
>
> > And, finally, a
> > chance for the Captain's dislike of Castle to be reasonable, and they
> > have her turn teddy bear soft first thing.
>
> That's actually probably what happens. Like when the other Dodgers
> started sticking up for Jackie Robinson because he was their teammate
> and contractually, he was not allowed to stick up for himself.

suzeeq

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Oct 30, 2012, 1:52:18 PM10/30/12

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It was probably an excuse for 'I'm homesick' without admitting it.

Rhino

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Oct 30, 2012, 1:57:04 PM10/30/12

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"JRStern" <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote in message
news:v9ru88t7idbs3pd4v...@4ax.com...

I agree that super-criminals are hard to accept as plausible but I think my
biggest peeve with the episode was the gunfight between Castle and the
killer.

I know that police officers are taught to shoot for center mass, meaning the
torso, so it makes some sense that Beckett put several rounds into his
chest. It was not completely unbelievable that the killer then got up
unscathed because he was wearing Kevlar. (Mind you, many cop shows I've seen
indicate that even one round in the Kevlar still translates into a very hard
hit that can still knock you over and take the wind out of you. You would
think that six such shots would at least stun someone for a while and
probably do much worse, like breaking ribs.)

What was totally NON-credible was that Castle then put another half dozen
rounds in the killer's chest even though they'd just seen ample evidence
that he was wearing Kevlar. It seems blindingly obvious to me that Castle
should have taken at least one head shot and preferably several more since
they knew the chest shots wouldn't drop him.

Or he could have shot him in the legs to make him fall. That was the
technique used in the famous LA bank robbery at Northridge when police were
facing off with the surviving robber who was wearing Kevlar over just about
every part of his body except his feet: one of the SWAT officers shot him in
the foot to bring him down. Then they disarmed him and he bled out before
the ambulance arrived.

--
Rhino

David Johnston

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Oct 30, 2012, 2:25:01 PM10/30/12

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On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:57:08 AM UTC-7, Rhino wrote:

> What was totally NON-credible was that Castle then put another half dozen
> rounds in the killer's chest even though they'd just seen ample evidence
> that he was wearing Kevlar. It seems blindingly obvious to me that Castle
> should have taken at least one head shot and preferably several more since
> they knew the chest shots wouldn't drop him.

Yes, it's obvious that he should have. However, it's not obvious to me that he would have. Head shots are difficult, Castle is not a marksman, he was in the heat of the moment, and he could not have been sure that Becket hit the guy at all, or that if she did, he wasn't bleeding away already. Remember the scene would have been darker for the characters than it was for us and cops usually actually miss when they fire their guns.

It is probably only in retrospect that Castle clued in that the guy was probably wearing kevlar and was trying to create a more convincing death.

JRStern

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Oct 30, 2012, 2:34:52 PM10/30/12

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The guy was wearing this huge, baggy shirt suggesting a full-on
military ceramic vest, standard issue to your super-villains.

If Beckett was willing to blast him with several shots, somewhat
uncharacteristic and against policy, then *she* should have aimed for
the head, too. And certainly when she approached, she should have
given him a couple from a safe distance, everyone saw that coming from
a mile away. And if the head was inconvenient, give him a couple in
the balls as you approach.

I believe she shot about six times, assume she has eleven in the
magazine or else would have reloaded before approaching.

And would even a super-criminal RISK IT?

I flipped back and saw the last minute or so because whatever I was
watching elsewhere ended a couple of minutes early, but I frankly
don't care what they do with these stupid plotz.

J.

RichA

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Oct 30, 2012, 6:14:33 PM10/30/12

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On Oct 30, 1:34 pm, JRStern <JRSt...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:57:04 -0400, "Rhino"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> <no_offline_contact_ple...@example.com> wrote:
>
> >"JRStern" <JRSt...@foobar.invalid> wrote in message

They never do. Police carry Glock .40's now. We know what happens to
heads hit by those bullets.
The days of nice, clean .38cal wounds are long gone.

Rhino

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Oct 30, 2012, 8:42:14 PM10/30/12

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"JRStern" <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote in message

news:b37098t9oo7vce3ke...@4ax.com...

I'm not a cop but I expect that they have policies about what they are
supposed to aim at and when they should stop shooting. However, I recall a
show I saw recently - I don't recall which one - where a major character had
been advised at some point in the past to "put two in the chest, one in the
head" if there was any chance the target was wearing Kevlar. Now, I don't
know if that is just a dramatic flourish or if that is actually policy in
some/many police forces but it certainly would have been the right advice
for THIS case.

But I didn't criticize her because she might have been follow a very
strictly mandated policy about where to shoot and MIGHT not have noticed how
bulky his chest was and therefore recognized that he was wearing armour. As
you say, it would have been darker for them that for viewers and he might
have been further away than he looked.

I had a lot more trouble excusing Castle though since I assumed he knew that
the killer WAS wearing Kevlar. Mind you, even that may not be completely
fair. After all, he was in the shotgun seat keeping his head down and he may
not have seen that much of Becket's portion of the shootout. Also, he
somehow managed to slither out of the shotgun seat and make his way around
the front of the car to get to Becket's dropped gun. That too might have
limited how much he actually saw. Given the darkness he MIGHT have just
thought Becket missed all six shots and may not have realized the killer had
armour on. That combination might have justified him sending all his shots
to center mass too. But Becket could have yelled "Head shot Castle!" to
prompt him because she certainly should have realized that there was armour
in play. And what about her backup gun? Haven't we seen her carrying a
backup gun in an ankle holster in past episodes? Why wouldn't she pull it
out and put a few rounds in the killer's head while Castle was going for the
torso?

One other thing. Is this the first time we've seen Castle shoot someone? I
vaguely remember scenes of him at a gun range at some point but that I'm not
even sure about that. I can't think of any previous episodes where he
actually fired at a living person.

> I believe she shot about six times, assume she has eleven in the
> magazine or else would have reloaded before approaching.
>

I've heard some Glocks routinely have 17 rounds but I'm not sure whether
hers was one of those models.

> And would even a super-criminal RISK IT?
>

Agreed; that was improbable too. And for a guy that savoured the
anticipation of killing, a quick shooting seems awfully out of character for
him.

> I flipped back and saw the last minute or so because whatever I was
> watching elsewhere ended a couple of minutes early, but I frankly
> don't care what they do with these stupid plotz.
>
>

I actually liked the episode for the most part, especially the way they made
it seem almost inescapable that Castle HAD murdered the woman from the
opening scene. The real killer had amassed so much compelling evidence that
anyone other than Castle did the deed would seem highly unlikely. Of course
we, as viewers, knew Castle would never do such a thing but any objective
cop, DA, judge or jury member would have a lot of trouble believing anyone
else had committed the murder. It's too bad they had to weaken it with the
rather improbable ending, all for the sake of keeping the killer alive to
torment them again somewhere down the road.

--
Rhino

BTR1701

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Oct 30, 2012, 9:08:12 PM10/30/12

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In article <k6ps59$8ta$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

"Rhino" <no_offline_c...@example.com> wrote:

> "JRStern" <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote in message
> news:b37098t9oo7vce3ke...@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:57:04 -0400, "Rhino"
> > <no_offline_c...@example.com> wrote:

> >>I know that police officers are taught to shoot for center mass, meaning
> >>the torso, so it makes some sense that Beckett put several rounds into his
> >>chest. It was not completely unbelievable that the killer then got up
> >>unscathed because he was wearing Kevlar. (Mind you, many cop shows I've
> >>seen indicate that even one round in the Kevlar still translates into a
> >>very hard hit that can still knock you over and take the wind out of you.

More like break your ribs. All those foot-pounds of energy have to go
somewhere, and being hit in the chest with any decent-sized pistol round
will feel roughly equivalent to taking a blow to the chest with a
sledgehammer. Kevlar is designed to save your life, not make you
Superman and let you shrug off bullets like a mere inconvenience.

There are more than a few instances of cops who have survived a round or
two to the vest, only to die later from ruptured organs and/or internal
bleeding.

It certainly isn't like on TV where they get shot, falld down, then sit
up, gasp, inexplicably pull open their shirt to show off the round
embedded in their vest, then get up and chase the bad guy some more.

> > If Beckett was willing to blast him with several shots, somewhat
> > uncharacteristic and against policy, then *she* should have aimed for
> > the head, too. And certainly when she approached, she should have
> > given him a couple from a safe distance, everyone saw that coming from
> > a mile away. And if the head was inconvenient, give him a couple in
> > the balls as you approach.
> >
> I'm not a cop but I expect that they have policies about what they are
> supposed to aim at and when they should stop shooting.

Most police Use of Force policies say that you shoot to stop the threat.
Since that usually means the center of mass, torso shots are the norm.
However if you know or suspect that the suspect is wearing body armor, a
center of mass shot won't reasonably stop the threat. In such cases, a
head shot is certainly appropriate.

JRStern

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Oct 30, 2012, 10:27:20 PM10/30/12

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On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:42:14 -0400, "Rhino"

>One other thing. Is this the first time we've seen Castle shoot someone? I
>vaguely remember scenes of him at a gun range at some point but that I'm not
>even sure about that. I can't think of any previous episodes where he
>actually fired at a living person.

I'm not certain, I always confuse the series with its clone Bones,
where Bones certainly has shot guns accurately and hit people ... I
think. But I think so, in any case it was a near shot and the safety
should have been off and everything ready to go. Um, how many bullets
did Castle have? In the "clip" rather than magazine.

For that matter just how did Beckett break free without getting shot,
elbow the guy in the six-inch thick vest?

Gaaaaah.

J.

anim8rFSK

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Oct 31, 2012, 1:02:18 AM10/31/12

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In article <eu2198p8f02jkk4jp...@4ax.com>,

None of it made sense, including why Castle shot the guy right where he
knew he was bulletproof.

Adam H. Kerman

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Oct 31, 2012, 6:13:55 AM10/31/12

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anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:

>> Spoilers
>>
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>Lots and lots and lots of big stupid in this one. Alexis doesn't have
>the money to do her laundry at college? Since when is Alexis on a
>budget?? She's rich! Not 'James Patterson's daughter rich' but still
>...

I thought she was at the apartment because she was meeting friends or
a boyfriend. I think transit fare would cost a similar amount to quarters
in a laundry machine, no? I figured it was merely an excuse to be in
the apartment, but then they dropped it.

>And, finally, a chance for the Captain's dislike of Castle to be
>reasonable, and they have her turn teddy bear soft first thing.

Oh, that one's obvious. Destroying one of her precious collectibles is
a far more serious crime than murder.

Lemme be the first to mention that the body suspended from the ceiling
was ripped off from Supernatural.

Adam H. Kerman

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Oct 31, 2012, 6:15:52 AM10/31/12

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anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:

>Rich <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>> > Spoilers
>> >
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>> > .
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>>Kind of interesting they have a super criminal and Beckett's mother's
>>murder plot as well.

>Interesting in a "please don't visit EITHER of these plots again" sort
>of way.

hehehehe

I was sure that the ADA was one of Red John's disciples, but then I had
to remind myself that I was watching a different show.

David Loewe, Jr.

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Oct 31, 2012, 9:47:04 AM10/31/12

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>One other thing. Is this the first time we've seen Castle shoot someone? I
>vaguely remember scenes of him at a gun range at some point but that I'm not
>even sure about that. I can't think of any previous episodes where he
>actually fired at a living person.

No. It is not. Season 3 opener when he shoots the guy behind Beckett
as she shoots the guy behind him. I think there was at least one other.
--
"Never appeal to a man's "better nature". He may not
have one. Invoking his self-interest gives you more
leverage."
-Lazarus Long

EGK

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Oct 31, 2012, 10:35:51 AM10/31/12

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On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:15:52 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
wrote:

Sometimes you're not. How often do we see writers recycle the exact same
plot from one show to another? I used to notice it a lot when I watched
Law and Order and NYPD Blue.

anim8rFSK

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Oct 31, 2012, 11:09:48 AM10/31/12

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In article <k6qtoo$jkt$2...@news.albasani.net>,

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

Yeah, she had to either be evil or a victim and she turned out to be ...
just incompetent and unharmed.

anim8rFSK

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Oct 31, 2012, 11:18:37 AM10/31/12

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In article <k6qtl3$jkt$1...@news.albasani.net>,

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

Yeah, I thought it would be sweet that she wanted a visit, and then she
took off to partay with her friends ... I thought that she would be
around because it would provide him an alibi, but they forgot about it,
and then I thought she'd be in danger, but she wasn't ... it turned out
to be exactly what I feared when she went off to college, them
shoehorning in a scene to give her something to do that didn't have
anything to do with the plot.

>
> >And, finally, a chance for the Captain's dislike of Castle to be
> >reasonable, and they have her turn teddy bear soft first thing.
>
> Oh, that one's obvious. Destroying one of her precious collectibles is
> a far more serious crime than murder.

heh

>
> Lemme be the first to mention that the body suspended from the ceiling
> was ripped off from Supernatural.

JRStern

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Oct 31, 2012, 1:11:38 PM10/31/12

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On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:18:37 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net>
wrote:

Oh, having her on screen meant maybe she was next to be involved in
some unpleasant way.

Lots of kids show up at home to do laundry and stuff just because, and
I mean seriously, Castle doesn't have a housekeeper for that stuff?

J.

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Oct 31, 2012, 8:18:07 PM10/31/12

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She probably comes in to clean a few times a week.

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Nov 1, 2012, 11:52:45 AM11/1/12

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Sure, meanwhile the housekeeper shows up with a fourteen year old son
who looks just like Castle, ...

J.

Jeremy

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Nov 1, 2012, 2:16:11 PM11/1/12

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>Yes. That was the only time I could pin down the Episode. I remember
>one where he shoots someone center mass to which someone (Beckett?)
>responds "Nice shot, Castle!" and he ripostes "I was aiming for his
>head!"

Heh, I remember that. I guess he was "aiming for his head" in this
episode too. <roll eyes>

erilar

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Nov 1, 2012, 4:46:24 PM11/1/12

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In article <k6sf3o$pgj$1...@dont-email.me>, suzeeq <su...@imbris.com>
wrote:

> anim8rFSK wrote:

> > They actually mentioned the housekeeper (who I don't ever recall) when
> > listing people that had keys to the place that could have helped with
> > the frame.
>
> She probably comes in to clean a few times a week.

I'd expect so. It would be hard to concentrate on his writing(when he
actually works at it) with someone cleaning around him.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

JRStern

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Nov 1, 2012, 6:27:15 PM11/1/12

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Aha, good point!

But the show has nearly lost its humor at this point.

J.