MAJOR SPOILERS Once Upon a Time Finale (Perfect 10/10!)

[KalElFan]

MAJOR SPOILERS warning in the thread title...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

A
R
E

B
E
L
O
W

But for a minor tweak in the final few minutes, this really played as
a perfect finale to a 22-episode series. It's an extremely busy episode.
How busy? Emma wakes up early on, after being basically zapped by
the book, and by the end of the ep she's kicked dragon ass using her
father's sword, brought Henry back to life, lifted the curse, and brought
everyone's memory back. The episode basically pays off on everything,
and again as if it were a series finale.

The tweak that keeps it going into season 2 is that no one's returned
to Storybrooke, as perhaps they might have been had ABC cancelled
the show. Instead, Rumpelstiltskin/Gold uses the remaining True Love
he stashed to, it seems, import magic into Storybrooke from the fairy
tale realm. (He also gets reunited with Belle and she remembers him
by the end -- again because everyone in Storybrooke remembers now.
So Belle's return and the Beauty & The Beast substory is another great
payoff in the ep.)

The season 2 plan will now, it appears, be to write the show as if
Storybrooke is a fairy tale enclave in "our" real world. No apparent
reason why travel outside Storybrooke wouldn't be possible now
so perhaps crossover to Boston, Washington, etc., is off in future
seasons if the show lasts. First they'll probably run with Storybrooke
though. The final scene has Regina smiling as she sees the magic
approaching. Will Gold, Regina, Emma, Charming, the Mad Hatter,
Cricket and so on all have some or at least little bits of it? Tune in
this September, as I suspect those who've stuck with it will along
with some new and returning viewers.

Methinks an Avengers guest star or two might also do wonders for
ratings. :-)

[KalElFan]

"KalElFan" wrote in message news:a1b3dh...@mid.individual.net...

MAJOR SPOILERS warning in the thread title...

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
>
> A
> R
> E
>
> B
> E
> L
> O
> W

<snippage>

> The tweak that keeps it going into season 2 is that no one's

> returned to Storybrooke...

That should have read "no one's returned to the fairy tale
realm..."

The characters all seem to have their Storybrooke memories
though, along with their fairy tale memories. Snow is walking
along the street, seeming doubtful about the memories and it
isn't until Charming calls her "Snow" that she seems to realize
everyone has had their memories restored.

So this season finale also does an end run around the huge
problem they would have had with ever wiping all of their
Storybrooke memories. They're all continuous characters at
this point and will presumably remain so.

[JRStern]

On Sun, 13 May 2012 20:53:46 -0400, "KalElFan"
<kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

>Methinks an Avengers guest star or two might also do wonders for
>ratings. :-)

hmm, .... pretty big gap in genres, there.

well, maybe some Asgardians, ... Dr. Strange ...

J.

[KalElFan]

"JRStern" wrote in message
news:1up0r7tk2deiqnh5l...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 13 May 2012 20:53:46 -0400, "KalElFan"
> <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

>> Methinks an Avengers guest star or two might also do wonders for
>> ratings. :-)
>
> hmm, .... pretty big gap in genres, there.

Not really -- "every story book character you've ever known" could
certainly include comic book characters. Henry reading comic books
could foreshadow it. I think I saw a PTB answer to a question on
how far afield they might take it. The answer was something like
they'd probably stick mainly to conventional fairy tale characters
for now. In other words it's not ruled out and there could be a
standalone episode exception here or there.

Avengers is going to be Disney's highest grossing movie, worldwide
(unadjusted for inflation). It's already grossed over $1 billion and
probably 100+ million people worldwide will have *PAID* to see it.
Once Upon a Time has been getting less than 9 million viewers in
the U.S. most of its recent episodes. The upside is just too big to
ignore, and with Storybrooke now filled with magic it'd be easy
to write such a story. Anything can happen in Storybrooke now.
But...

> well, maybe some Asgardians, ... Dr. Strange ...

Lord no. The marketing benefit would be one or two of the major
characters, Hulk perhaps. Henry's love of comic books would be
an easy catalyst for a one-shot -- some exceptional, magical trigger
for it happening. If it drew well there could be the occasional
crossover episode during a sweeps month, with the same character
or that one and another appearing again.

[JRStern]

On Sun, 13 May 2012 22:35:21 -0400, "KalElFan"

<kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

>>> Methinks an Avengers guest star or two might also do wonders for
>>> ratings. :-)
>>
>> hmm, .... pretty big gap in genres, there.
>
>Not really -- "every story book character you've ever known" could
>certainly include comic book characters.

Gack.

So how about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_Popnecker

Leave it to Disney to disambiguate from the Volkswagen of the same
name.

J.

[KalElFan]

"JRStern" wrote in message
news:lq21r7l0bhrmjunni...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 13 May 2012 22:35:21 -0400, "KalElFan"
> <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>

>> ... "every story book character you've ever known" could
>> certainly include comic book characters...
>
> ... So how about:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_Popnecker

If Herbie were an iconic comic book character with an 18-49 fan base
and appearance in a billion-dollar movie this month, there might be
a point there. They could set it up by having Henry read a "Herbie
League of Super Beetles" comic book first, or have Herbie join the
Avengers. :-/

Or if the show backs off their reboot setup in season 2 and it's near
cancellation by Thanksgiving, they could stunt cast Lindsay Lohan
perhaps. :-/

But seriously folks...

The finale was astonishingly good, in large part because of the giant
leap it took in the show's premise. The series was probably a half
dozen eps from cancellation if it continued with Storybrooke being
a place of Emma Stupidity and Charming-Snow Annoyance. They
needed to blow all that up and, astonishingly, they actually did!
They nuked it. Storybrooke is now a magical land where anything
new and creative can happen in season 2 and potentially beyond.

Most of it should involve existing regular characters and therefore
be conventional fairy tale based. The Evil Queen, Rumpelstiltskin,
Snow White, Prince Charming, Jiminy Cricket, Pinocchio, the Mad
Hatter et al now live in Storybrooke, fully self aware. Their "real
world" alter egos will be just that and I suspect they'll all want to
keep those, especially if Storybrooke begins to gradually interact
more with the outside "real" world. But Emma and Henry are of
the "real" world, and Henry reads comic books, and Disney owns
Marvel. Disney's also done Hercules, which would be a better fit
than Herbie. Henry's a Hercules and other Hero kid, not a Herbie
kid. :-)

So I hope they branch out in season 2, at least for a couple of
episodes. "Regina" and "Gold" hurling curses and spells at one
another, in mini-arcs all season long, would also get old.

[Hunter]

On Sun, 13 May 2012 20:53:46 -0400, "KalElFan"
<kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:

-----
Gold definitely will get his magic. It is the reason he brought magic
into our world so he can use it and have power. Regina definitely
will. Emma being a being of magic and not normal should if only to
stand up against Gold and/or Regina, Charming didn't work magic in
Fairytale land so I don't see a reason he will here unless he actively
learns how to use it. The Mad Hatter definitely will; Jiminy Cricket
didn't seem magical in Fairytale land so I doubt it unless he like
Charming chooses to learn it. One thing for sure I doubt he will turn
back into an insect (and gold will keep looking normal I think). I do
hope Regina goes back to wearing low cut tops instead of business
clothing.

I do wonder if the magic in our world will be confined to Storybrooke,
Maine or will it spread through out the world as you mentioned as a
possibility.

Good season finale, and it made Emma believe in a, well, believable
way. She was desperate and then was "zapped" by the book, instead of
being persuaded by a bunch of "nuts."

Oh and you don't have to worry about OUaT being cancelled. It was
renewed on May 10th.

------>Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

[Professor Bubba]

In article <4fb0f2d4...@news.optonline.net>, Hunter

<buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> Gold definitely will get his magic. It is the reason he brought magic
> into our world so he can use it and have power. Regina definitely
> will. Emma being a being of magic and not normal should if only to
> stand up against Gold and/or Regina, Charming didn't work magic in
> Fairytale land so I don't see a reason he will here unless he actively
> learns how to use it. The Mad Hatter definitely will; Jiminy Cricket
> didn't seem magical in Fairytale land so I doubt it unless he like
> Charming chooses to learn it. One thing for sure I doubt he will turn
> back into an insect (and gold will keep looking normal I think). I do
> hope Regina goes back to wearing low cut tops instead of business
> clothing.
>
> I do wonder if the magic in our world will be confined to Storybrooke,
> Maine or will it spread through out the world as you mentioned as a
> possibility.
>
> Good season finale, and it made Emma believe in a, well, believable
> way. She was desperate and then was "zapped" by the book, instead of
> being persuaded by a bunch of "nuts."

When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
happen:

Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more than any
other townie ever had.

While most? all? the people of Storybrooke recovered most? all? of
their memories, no one seems to have acted on them except for the Blue
Fairy and Charming. Everybody just sat there like a rock, or (like
Snow) wandered around town in a daze, perhaps sorting things out. If
the curse had actually been broken, you could reasonably expect things
to have reverted to the status quo ante, with everyone back in their
normal lives and settings in the fairytale world.

In sum, I don't think the curse has been broken. Instead, it has been
changed. Rumpelstiltskin built in a fail-safe.

We know that Rumpelstiltskin put a back door in the curse. I think
we're going to find out that this new situation is no accident, but is
part of that back door. Rumpelstiltskin has made himself the most
powerful being in Storybrooke. Odds are that he thought the curse
would inevitably be broken.

There's no reason to assume that those who could wield magic in the
other realm will now be able to do so in Storybrooke, but the
possibility cannot be ruled out.

Like you, I liked the way Emma was zapped by the book and what followed
after that, but she'd handled the book before with no effect. I think
she had to have been already on the edge of believing in order for the
book to work.

[Hunter]

------
That is how I read it to. The whole town is likely to be like that.
Their real memories conflicting with the lives they have lead for the
past 28 years and what they considered "impossible", so they are
bewildered.

>
>So this season finale also does an end run around the huge
>problem they would have had with ever wiping all of their
>Storybrooke memories. They're all continuous characters at
>this point and will presumably remain so.

------
I don't think that was ever a problem. Only a few selected people
knew, those who had control of Magic, Regina, Gold and Jefferson; and
those created by magic like August.

[tdciago]

I'm posting through Google Groups because I can't find this thread on
recgroups.com, so I don't know if or when this will show up outside of
Google. Anyway...

On May 13, 8:53 pm, "KalElFan" <kalel...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
> But for a minor tweak in the final few minutes, this really played as
> a perfect finale to a 22-episode series.

It definitely felt like a series finale (though I wouldn't describe it
as perfect), and I don't think that's a good thing. They tossed a
premise that they couldn't sustain for more than one season, and it
felt forced and rushed. To me, it also played like a dream sequence.
Too many big, crazy things happening too suddenly, instead of feeling
like they were organic to the storyline. I kept waiting for someone
to wake up.

Emma, who has handled the book many times, touches it for the
hundredth time and instantly BELIEVES. The efforts of the people who
tried to get her to believe were wasted. It only took magic, which
doesn't exist in our world. For some reason, the sleeping curse has
the unexpected side effect of making Emma believe. Why? Doesn't
matter. The writers covered this by having Regina say that magic in
our world was unpredictable.

What *wasn't* unpredictable was the method by which Henry was
restored. My daughter said it either had to be a kiss or tears.
Voila! We got both.

I think the double Maleficent battles would've worked better if we
hadn't already seen Charming slay a dragon. They should've had him
kill some other troublesome beast earlier in the series. The effect
of having the dragon below the library, accessible via elevator, also
felt too much like the mine situation. That's where I initially
thought Maleficent in dragon form would be found.

I haven't seen anyone suggest the possibility that the purple smoke
will wipe out their newly restored memories. I don't necessarily
think this will happen, but it's a possibility. Also,
Rumplestiltskin / Gold is back to square one in terms of motivation.
So much for wanting to find Baelfire. He just wants his power back.
This will certainly alienate him from Belle again. It's a reset
button that negates the progress he seemed to be making in terms of
being a sympathetic character.

Jefferson is still wandering around Storybrooke, having suffered no
consequences for his crimes.

I will say that it was nice to see Graham again.

But this did not whet my appetite for next season. Quite the
opposite, actually.

[Remysun]

On May 14, 12:02 pm, tdciago <tdci...@aol.com> wrote:
> I'm posting through Google Groups because I can't find this thread on
> recgroups.com, so I don't know if or when this will show up outside of
> Google.  Anyway...

That explains the noninterest in this week's poll.

[Remysun]

On May 14, 12:02 pm, tdciago <tdci...@aol.com> wrote:

> Emma, who has handled the book many times, touches it for the
> hundredth time and instantly BELIEVES.  The efforts of the people who
> tried to get her to believe were wasted.  It only took magic, which
> doesn't exist in our world.  For some reason, the sleeping curse has
> the unexpected side effect of making Emma believe.  Why?  Doesn't
> matter.  The writers covered this by having Regina say that magic in
> our world was unpredictable.

This had a lot of parallels to the Flash Sideways awakenings. Those
didn't happen right away either. In this case, a combination had to
occur. One, Emma had to see the magic to believe it. Two, she had to
make the connection that the stories in the book were real. That's why
that touch brought the memories back where all the other times didn't.

[~consul]

'tis on this 5/13/2012 9:35 PM, wrote JRStern thus to say:
> On Sun, 13 May 2012 22:35:21 -0400, "KalElFan"
> <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Methinks an Avengers guest star or two might also do wonders for
>>>> ratings. :-)
>>>
>>> hmm, .... pretty big gap in genres, there.
>>
>> Not really -- "every story book character you've ever known" could
>> certainly include comic book characters.
>
> Gack.
>
> So how about:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_Popnecker

holy frak, talk about comic-book nerd fantasy!

> Leave it to Disney to disambiguate from the Volkswagen of the same name.

I thought Emma's car was a slight homage to it. It would break down at the most convenient times.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, consul -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

[Adam H. Kerman]

I really wanted the special effect for Emma finally believing Henry to
be a mallet hitting her on the skull.

It was nice to have many major plot points resolved, even though I'm
still confused about why Rumpelstilskin gave Wicked Queen the curse
in the first place... Yeah, something about his son, I know, but it
didn't make a lot of sense.

[Adam H. Kerman]

I'd also like to know if Red reverts to being a werewolf, substantially
reducing Storybooke's population next season.

[David Johnston]

It got him out of prison. It transported him to the world he'd sent his
son to. It gave him revenge on everyone who played a part in his
incarceration. It cured him of his skin condition.

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 5/14/2012 3:37 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>> MAJOR SPOILERS warning in the thread title...
>>
>>> S
>>> P
>>> O
>>> I
>>> L
>>> E
>>> R
>>> S
>>>
>>> A
>>> R
>>> E
>>>
>>> B
>>> E
>>> L
>>> O
>>> W

>>It was nice to have many major plot points resolved, even though I'm
>>still confused about why Rumpelstilskin gave Wicked Queen the curse
>>in the first place... Yeah, something about his son, I know, but it
>>didn't make a lot of sense.

>It got him out of prison. It transported him to the world he'd sent his
>son to. It gave him revenge on everyone who played a part in his
>incarceration. It cured him of his skin condition.

He was in prison when he gave her the curse? I don't recall what magic
was used to keep him imprisoned.

Also, I thought the Blue Fairy was dead. Did we ever get an explanation
as to why Keenan Connor Tracy was one of the Holy Sisters of Storybrooke?

[David Johnston]

Yep. Talked to her through the bars.

I don't recall what magic
> was used to keep him imprisoned.

He was imprisoned in the dwarf mine. You know, where the fairy dust
comes from? It was never explicitly explained how how this restrained
him, but it's easy enough to think of reasons.

>
> Also, I thought the Blue Fairy was dead.

No, that was Cinderella's fairy godmother that Rumpel killed. There's a
subtle hint that she's a different character from the Blue Fairy if you
look at her picture.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111031221435/onceuponatime8042/images/b/b8/Fairygodmother.jpg

Did we ever get an explanation
> as to why Keenan Connor Tracy was one of the Holy Sisters of Storybrooke?

All the fairies became nuns because they were all celibate do-gooders.

[Genestro]

Just for once I'd like to see such an organization include some slutty
do-gooders. The association of sex with selfishness is ridiculous when
you realize that sex is mostly a positive-sum move.

[David Johnston]

On 5/14/2012 10:02 AM, tdciago wrote:
> I haven't seen anyone suggest the possibility that the purple smoke
> will wipe out their newly restored memories. I don't necessarily
> think this will happen, but it's a possibility. Also,
> Rumplestiltskin / Gold is back to square one in terms of motivation.
> So much for wanting to find Baelfire. He just wants his power back.

He wants it all. He wants his magic, his son, his freedom, his
girlfriend. That's why breaking the curse didn't send everyone back.
The point of the curse was to give him a way to get to the other side.

> This will certainly alienate him from Belle again. It's a reset
> button that negates the progress he seemed to be making in terms of
> being a sympathetic character.
>
> Jefferson is still wandering around Storybrooke, having suffered no
> consequences for his crimes.

What crimes would those be?

[Genestro]

Kidnapping, for one.

[KalElFan]

"~consul" wrote in message news:jorer6$3dq$1...@gist.usc.edu...

> ... I thought Emma's car was a slight homage to [Herbie]

I realized it might be, some time after Stern's post was made to
this thread. Maybe a LiLo guest spot could be worked in here
after all. :-)

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 5/14/2012 4:07 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>Also, I thought the Blue Fairy was dead.

>No, that was Cinderella's fairy godmother that Rumpel killed.

Oh, yeah. Thanks.

[KalElFan]

"Hunter (Hunter)" wrote in message
news:4fb129e6...@news.optonline.net...

> On Sun, 13 May 2012 21:27:08 -0400, "KalElFan"
> <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The characters all seem to have their Storybrooke memories
>> though, along with their fairy tale memories. Snow is walking
>> along the street, seeming doubtful about the memories and it
>> isn't until Charming calls her "Snow" that she seems to realize
>> everyone has had their memories restored.
>

> That is how I read it to. The whole town is likely to be like that.
> Their real memories conflicting with the lives they have lead for the
> past 28 years and what they considered "impossible", so they are
> bewildered.

Right, but I think it probably doesn't seem like 28 years to most of
them. The exceptions are probably Jefferson, Gold and Regina.
Henry should also have sensed that time was off, because he aged
and caught up with other kids like Paige. Not sure they'll ever go
there and try to explain that though.

>> So this season finale also does an end run around the huge
>> problem they would have had with ever wiping all of their
>> Storybrooke memories. They're all continuous characters at
>> this point and will presumably remain so.
>

> I don't think that was ever a problem. Only a few selected people
> knew, those who had control of Magic, Regina, Gold and Jefferson;
> and those created by magic like August.

I was mainly referring to some of the early discussions here about
the end game of the show. The "happy ending" isn't having their
Storybrooke memories erased, it's at least having the choice to
keep those memories even if they return to the fairy tale world
one day. So yes, this was a creative issue the show would have
had. It was a given the amnesia would get resolved at some point
and they'd remember the fairy tale world. But a pure reset would
have had them forget Storybrooke, and again I don't think that
would've worked for the viewership.

The "daze" of Snow and others during the transition very strongly
suggests they now have full memories of both realms. I think that's
the right creative decision for the show and it's now behind them.

[David Johnston]

That's pretty small beer in Storybrooke.

[KalElFan]

"Professor Bubba" wrote in message
news:140520120814352248%bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid...

> When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what
> *didn't* happen:
>
> Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more
> than any other townie ever had.

That was right as the curse was being broken and his memories
returning. He also had a head start with his memory a few eps
back, in that session with Hopper/Cricket. So I saw that scene
as Charming/David simply turning the heck around and heading
back.

> While most? all? the people of Storybrooke recovered most?
> all? of their memories, no one seems to have acted on them
> except for the Blue Fairy and Charming.

There was only so much they could show of people waking up
and adjusting to the memories. I think they did establish what
was happening, and the "magic shock wave" was hitting them
all.

> Everybody just sat there like a rock, or (like Snow) wandered
> around town in a daze, perhaps sorting things out.

Right, but then she immediately was out of the daze as Charming
showed up and called her Snow. This would probably be the
pattern for everyone. They initially need the confirmation that
they aren't daydreaming or going nuts, and would be afraid to
talk about it if they didn't have that.

> If the curse had actually been broken, you could reasonably
> expect things to have reverted to the status quo ante, with
> everyone back in their normal lives and settings in the
> fairytale world.

Maybe, and Emma asked that question. The show's answer seems
to clearly be that Gold's Magic Imports Inc. derailed a complete
reversal.

> In sum, I don't think the curse has been broken. Instead, it has
> been changed. Rumpelstiltskin built in a fail-safe.

It's semantics to some extent, but I think the best way to view it
is that the curse Rumpel dealt to the Evil Queen is kaput, but
Storybrooke now has magic and so at least one element of the
original curse remains -- they can't yet return to the fairy tale
world.

> ... Rumpelstiltskin has made himself the most powerful being in
> Storybrooke.

Regina seems happy about the development too. Her alternative,
as the Blue Fairy mentioned, would be to hide. She'd probably
have been imprisoned in Belle's cell. But now she's as or more
skilled than Rumpel when it comes to magic.

If the writers/PTB are uber-stupid, they could have Regina or the
"magic shock wave" wipe out everyone's memory once again in
the season 2 premiere, thereby resetting the show. I think the
ratings would tank and it'd be cancelled before the end of the
season, maybe before year-end. Regina exercising the power
of magic to defend herself, maintain control, keep Gold at bay
and so on will be a good dynamic for the show. They all need
to keep their memories though or I think the show's done.

> There's no reason to assume that those who could wield magic
> in the other realm will now be able to do so in Storybrooke,
> but the possibility cannot be ruled out.

Regina and Rumpel, possibly along with Emma as she develops
more magical ability, will probably have the strongest "powers".
Jefferson will have the hat, Charming his sword, Red may be
able to transform into a wolf when it's a full moon and so on.
Gold can make deals. Basically the fairy tale world dynamic
has been brought to Storybrooke and the mythology plays out.

[KalElFan]

"Hunter (Hunter)" wrote in message

news:4fb0f2d4...@news.optonline.net...

> Charming didn't work magic in Fairytale land...

He did seem "Charmed" in a way. He defeated the beast after
he took the dead hapless Prince's place. He killed that mermaid
demon in the lake to help reunite Abigail and Frederick. He
fought the guards effectively to escape, and got the dragon to
swallow the jewel-egg and so on. His sword seems to be a
magical object and perhaps it wouldn't work for anyone but
him and Emma.

He and Snow are also the source of the True Love magic that's
being imported into Storybrooke.

> Jiminy Cricket didn't seem magical in Fairytale land so I doubt it
> unless he like Charming chooses to learn it.

I was thinking more of the transformation ability that Cricket, the
Blue Fairy, Pinocchio, Red and others may have.

> One thing for sure I doubt he will turn back into an insect...

Actually I was thinking maybe he'd want to, at least some of the
time.

> (and gold will keep looking normal I think).

Yes, because he's presumably been self aware for the last 28 years
and knows he looks a lot less ugly than Rumpel. :-) Maybe he'll
revert if he gets too power-mad though. That was the dynamic in
the fairly tale world when he refused to revert after Belle's kiss.

Gold's motivation/plan at the end of the episode may have been to
upgrade from the beast Rumpelstiltskin. In Storybrooke he can be
Gold, the owner of the pawn shop. If and when he finds his son
he'd have given up his Dark-based magic, arguably, which is what
his son wanted and what he promised his son. Gold would have
at least "replaced" it with the True Love based magic as opposed
to the "Dark One".

Then there's Belle, where again he probably sees Gold as the
much better persona and Storybrooke the much better venue in
terms of how he thinks she would perceive it. She didn't seem
to like the power madness feel of what he was doing at the end
there, but he'd have a decent case explaining his reasoning. He's
the most interesting character on the show and Carlyle is great.

> Oh and you don't have to worry about OUaT being cancelled. It
> was renewed on May 10th.

Yes I knew that and it was widely presumed it would be, but at
the time they wrote this final ep they wouldn't have known for
sure. The show was down to as low as 8.63 million viewers on
February 12 and hit right around there twice in March. On a
Sunday night, those aren't great numbers though the 18-49
were better. Last night it won the night in 18-49 and improved
in the second half hour, with somewhere around 9.5 million
viewers.

[suzeeq]

He fixed it so they would get to the same world his son went to.

[KalElFan]

"Remysun" wrote in message
news:7939c949-3668-4c04...@to5g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

I surfed around a bit last night and the response elsewhere, on Twitter
and the like, was extremely positive on the finale. They can't wait for
September. The Charming-Snow ship development was popular, and
there's a "Rumpbelle" name for the Beauty & the Beast one.

[Ian J. Ball]

In article <4fb129e6...@news.optonline.net>,

Blue Fairy also seemed to remember, though they were vague on that
point.

--
"We're gonna need a lot of therapy." - the character Rachel in "Bunnyman"
(named 1 of the 5 Worst Horror Films of 2011 by 28DaysLaterAnalysis.com!!)

[David Johnston]

On 5/14/2012 6:55 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> "Professor Bubba" wrote in message
> news:140520120814352248%bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid...
>
>> When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
>> happen:
>>
>> Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more
>> than any other townie ever had.
>
> That was right as the curse was being broken and his memories
> returning. He also had a head start with his memory a few eps
> back, in that session with Hopper/Cricket. So I saw that scene
> as Charming/David simply turning the heck around and heading
> back.

Yes, but it means we don't know whether there's still an invisible fence.

>> There's no reason to assume that those who could wield magic
>> in the other realm will now be able to do so in Storybrooke,
>> but the possibility cannot be ruled out.
>

Oh there's a reason. The Queen started smiling.

[David Johnston]

Not before the reversal. Regina and Gold knew because it was their
curse. August knew because he was shielded. So the only riddle is
Jefferson, but we have no idea what he was doing when the curse hit.

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

>Not before the reversal. Regina and Gold knew because it was their
>curse. August knew because he was shielded. So the only riddle is
>Jefferson, but we have no idea what he was doing when the curse hit.

He was in another universe. What we don't know is how he got to Storybooke.

[Ian J. Ball]

In article <josc38$tba$2...@dont-email.me>,

Like I said, they weren't clear on the point, but I got the distinct
impression that she hinted in earlier episodes that she still remembered
too.

[KalElFan]

"David Johnston" wrote in message news:josbqi$tba$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 5/14/2012 6:55 PM, KalElFan wrote:
>
>> "Professor Bubba" wrote in message
>> news:140520120814352248%bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid...
>>
>>> When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what
>>> *didn't* happen:
>>>
>>> Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more
>>> than any other townie ever had.
>>
>> That was right as the curse was being broken and his memories
>> returning. He also had a head start with his memory a few eps
>> back, in that session with Hopper/Cricket. So I saw that scene
>> as Charming/David simply turning the heck around and heading
>> back.
>
> Yes, but it means we don't know whether there's still an invisible
> fence.

I agree we don't know either way, but that's not evidence the fence
remains or that part of the Curse does. From Gold's point of view,
and wanting to find his son, I think he'd also want the fence gone.

[David Johnston]

On 5/14/2012 7:53 PM, Ian J. Ball wrote:
> In article<josc38$tba$2...@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/14/2012 7:29 PM, Ian J. Ball wrote:
>>>
>>> Blue Fairy also seemed to remember, though they were vague on that
>>> point.
>>
>> Not before the reversal. Regina and Gold knew because it was their
>> curse. August knew because he was shielded. So the only riddle is
>> Jefferson, but we have no idea what he was doing when the curse hit.
>
> Like I said, they weren't clear on the point, but I got the distinct
> impression that she hinted in earlier episodes that she still remembered
> too.
>

<shrug> Lost on me.

[David Johnston]

That part of his plan may not have come to fruition yet.

[Professor Bubba]

In article <josbqi$tba$1...@dont-email.me>, David Johnston

<Da...@block.net> wrote:

> On 5/14/2012 6:55 PM, KalElFan wrote:
> > "Professor Bubba" wrote in message
> > news:140520120814352248%bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid...
> >
> >> When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
> >> happen:
> >>
> >> Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more
> >> than any other townie ever had.
> >
> > That was right as the curse was being broken and his memories
> > returning. He also had a head start with his memory a few eps
> > back, in that session with Hopper/Cricket. So I saw that scene
> > as Charming/David simply turning the heck around and heading
> > back.
>
> Yes, but it means we don't know whether there's still an invisible fence.

They shot it that way on purpose. We're supposed to notice the sign
and that David didn't get past it, or didn't care to go past it. It
may be a clue that the curse is still on.

Note also that David had stopped at the town line, for whatever reason.
The car wasn't moving when the Emmawave hit him.

BTW I hereby donate the trademarkable term "Emmawave" to the public
domain.

> >> There's no reason to assume that those who could wield magic
> >> in the other realm will now be able to do so in Storybrooke,
> >> but the possibility cannot be ruled out.
> >
>
> Oh there's a reason. The Queen started smiling.

Probably so.

[Hunter]

On Mon, 14 May 2012 08:14:35 -0400, Professor Bubba
<bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:

>In article <4fb0f2d4...@news.optonline.net>, Hunter
><buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>> Gold definitely will get his magic. It is the reason he brought magic
>> into our world so he can use it and have power. Regina definitely
>> will. Emma being a being of magic and not normal should if only to
>> stand up against Gold and/or Regina, Charming didn't work magic in
>> Fairytale land so I don't see a reason he will here unless he actively
>> learns how to use it. The Mad Hatter definitely will; Jiminy Cricket

>> didn't seem magical in Fairytale land so I doubt it unless he like

>> Charming chooses to learn it. One thing for sure I doubt he will turn
>> back into an insect (and gold will keep looking normal I think). I do
>> hope Regina goes back to wearing low cut tops instead of business
>> clothing.
>>
>> I do wonder if the magic in our world will be confined to Storybrooke,
>> Maine or will it spread through out the world as you mentioned as a
>> possibility.
>>
>> Good season finale, and it made Emma believe in a, well, believable
>> way. She was desperate and then was "zapped" by the book, instead of
>> being persuaded by a bunch of "nuts."

>
>
>When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
>happen:
>
>Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more than any
>other townie ever had.

------
Charming stopped under his own volition because he remembered, not
because he was prevented by a magic force, so he did an instant 180 to
find Snow. It wasn't as if he hit some barrier-at least not yet.
Still, I do concede the possibility of you being right because it
would be a way to keep most of the Storybrooke denizens from fleeing
to the outside world if they wanted to remain in this world if they
wanted to and live somewhere else. If so and you are right would Mr.
Gold and Regina be bound by that limitation?

>
>While most? all? the people of Storybrooke recovered most? all? of
>their memories, no one seems to have acted on them except for the Blue

>Fairy and Charming. Everybody just sat there like a rock, or (like
>Snow) wandered around town in a daze, perhaps sorting things out. If

>the curse had actually been broken, you could reasonably expect things
>to have reverted to the status quo ante, with everyone back in their
>normal lives and settings in the fairytale world.

------
Why? There is no need for them to go back and yes they all wondered
around a bit because their memories of who they really are conflicts
massively with what they thought they were raised with. It would be
confusing and put people in a bit of a shock, and I think everyone
knows who they really are now, without exception; they just need time
to digest it. However, it could mean that they would need a separate
spell to send them home but for all tents and purposes the curse is
broken.

>
>In sum, I don't think the curse has been broken. Instead, it has been
>changed. Rumpelstiltskin built in a fail-safe.

-----
Well That could've happen but it is predicated on the two premises
above which I don't think it is necessary.
>
>We know that Rumpelstiltskin put a back door in the curse. I think
>we're going to find out that this new situation is no accident, but is
>part of that back door. Rumpelstiltskin has made himself the most
>powerful being in Storybrooke. Odds are that he thought the curse
>would inevitably be broken.

>
>There's no reason to assume that those who could wield magic in the
>other realm will now be able to do so in Storybrooke, but the
>possibility cannot be ruled out.

-----
Regina seems to think so with her smile of the violet fog rolling in
towards her. Besides you need someone to oppose Rumpelstiltskin.
Having at the very least Regina regaining her powers would do that.
The Mad Hatter and the fairies would be counters to both Regina and
Mr. Gold as well. I have a feeling that Jefferson has it in special
for Regina LOL!
>
>Like you, I liked the way Emma was zapped by the book and what followed
>after that, but she'd handled the book before with no effect. I think
>she had to have been already on the edge of believing in order for the
>book to work.
-------
I actually think so given that the doctor essentially said that there
was no scientific reason for Henry to be in the state he was in (but
it could've been psychosomatic if you really want to dig for an
Earthly reason), but I also think it was Emma's panic that rendered
her thoughts irrational so she was open to it. The previous times her
mind was too clear and certain for the book to work.

------>Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

[tdciago]

On May 14, 7:44 pm, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
> He wants it all.  He wants his magic, his son, his freedom, his
> girlfriend.

He can't have it all. If he wants Baelfire and Belle, he's got to
relinquish the magic and his love of the power it brings. Like I
said, he's back to square one.

> > Jefferson is still wandering around Storybrooke, having suffered no
> > consequences for his crimes.
>
> What crimes would those be?

Kidnapping Mary Margaret and Emma.

[Adam H. Kerman]

tdciago <tdc...@aol.com> wrote:
>On May 14, 7:44 pm, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

>>He wants it all. He wants his magic, his son, his freedom, his
>>girlfriend.

>He can't have it all. If he wants Baelfire and Belle, he's got to
>relinquish the magic and his love of the power it brings. Like I
>said, he's back to square one.

Then he's already lost, according to the backstory. He can't relinquish
the magic without setting himself up to be murdered.

[Professor Bubba]

In article <4fb1e120...@news.optonline.net>, Hunter

<buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 14 May 2012 08:14:35 -0400, Professor Bubba
> <bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:

> >When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
> >happen:
> >
> >Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more than any
> >other townie ever had.
> ------
> Charming stopped under his own volition because he remembered, not
> because he was prevented by a magic force, so he did an instant 180 to
> find Snow.

I've just taken another look. Yes, his truck was moving when the
Emmawave hit. I still think it's important that David stops just at or
before he hits the town line. If there were supposed to be
consequences to him crossing the line, he was spared them.

> It wasn't as if he hit some barrier-at least not yet.
> Still, I do concede the possibility of you being right because it
> would be a way to keep most of the Storybrooke denizens from fleeing
> to the outside world if they wanted to remain in this world if they
> wanted to and live somewhere else. If so and you are right would Mr.
> Gold and Regina be bound by that limitation?

We'll see. My presumption here is that the curse wasn't broken, just
bent. Gold is taking advantage of that through a back door he built
into the Queen's curse while he was creating it.

There's an awful lot we don't know. I think this is more or less a new
curse.

> >While most? all? the people of Storybrooke recovered most? all? of
> >their memories, no one seems to have acted on them except for the Blue
> >Fairy and Charming. Everybody just sat there like a rock, or (like
> >Snow) wandered around town in a daze, perhaps sorting things out. If
> >the curse had actually been broken, you could reasonably expect things
> >to have reverted to the status quo ante, with everyone back in their
> >normal lives and settings in the fairytale world.
> ------
> Why? There is no need for them to go back and yes they all wondered
> around a bit because their memories of who they really are conflicts
> massively with what they thought they were raised with. It would be
> confusing and put people in a bit of a shock, and I think everyone
> knows who they really are now, without exception; they just need time
> to digest it. However, it could mean that they would need a separate
> spell to send them home but for all tents and purposes the curse is
> broken.

They all seemed very quiet, though, which continues to make me
suspicious.

> I actually think so given that the doctor essentially said that there
> was no scientific reason for Henry to be in the state he was in (but
> it could've been psychosomatic if you really want to dig for an
> Earthly reason), but I also think it was Emma's panic that rendered
> her thoughts irrational so she was open to it. The previous times her
> mind was too clear and certain for the book to work.

Maybe, but we'd seen signs that she was beginning to buy into Henry's
story. As you say, the stress of Henry's condition may have aided the
process.

[Barry Margolin]

In article <150520120529276211%bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid>,

Professor Bubba <bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:

> In article <4fb1e120...@news.optonline.net>, Hunter
> <buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 14 May 2012 08:14:35 -0400, Professor Bubba
> > <bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
> > >When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
> > >happen:
> > >
> > >Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more than any
> > >other townie ever had.
> > ------
> > Charming stopped under his own volition because he remembered, not
> > because he was prevented by a magic force, so he did an instant 180 to
> > find Snow.
>
> I've just taken another look. Yes, his truck was moving when the
> Emmawave hit. I still think it's important that David stops just at or
> before he hits the town line. If there were supposed to be
> consequences to him crossing the line, he was spared them.

The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
prevents it. So we never see what would happen if they actually reach
the line, and there's no obvious evidence of a curse keeping them in.

--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

[David Johnston]

On 5/15/2012 8:09 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:
> In article<150520120529276211%bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid>,
> Professor Bubba<bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article<4fb1e120...@news.optonline.net>, Hunter
>> <buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 14 May 2012 08:14:35 -0400, Professor Bubba
>>> <bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
>>>> happen:
>>>>
>>>> Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more than any
>>>> other townie ever had.
>>> ------
>>> Charming stopped under his own volition because he remembered, not
>>> because he was prevented by a magic force, so he did an instant 180 to
>>> find Snow.
>>
>> I've just taken another look. Yes, his truck was moving when the
>> Emmawave hit. I still think it's important that David stops just at or
>> before he hits the town line. If there were supposed to be
>> consequences to him crossing the line, he was spared them.
>
> The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
> Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
> prevents it.

Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
car.

[David Johnston]

On 5/15/2012 12:09 AM, tdciago wrote:

>>> Jefferson is still wandering around Storybrooke, having suffered no
>>> consequences for his crimes.
>>
>> What crimes would those be?
>
> Kidnapping Mary Margaret and Emma.

Why would he be punished for his crime when nobody else is?

[Genestro]

ISTR he had this magic hat that could open dimensional portals. Maybe it
had something to do with that? ;)

[Hunter]

On Mon, 14 May 2012 19:38:48 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
wrote:

------
Jefferson/The Mad Hatter was in a third Parallel Universe, Wonderland,
where the Queen of Hearts had him try to make magic hat so she could
invade Regina's Realm. It was the very last scene of "Hat Trick"
(S1XE17).

[David Johnston]

I'm aware of that. But we don't know if he was still there when the
curse hit. Maybe he actually managed to make the second hat and was in
the space between. Maybe he was being punished by the Queen of Hearts
in some bizarre way for failing to make a working hat when it hit.
Maybe he'd managed to escape using using the more conventional way of
getting in and out of Wonderland.

[tdciago]

I'm not even sure to whom you're referring. Mary Margaret was jailed
on suspicion of murder and released when the alleged victim was found
alive. Emma was unable to get proof of Regina or Gold's involvement
in Kathryn's abduction, because Sydney confessed and the shovel
disappeared, so that explains their lack of punishment. Graham's
autopsy showed no evidence of foul play, so Emma couldn't connect
Regina to that death either. But at least there was some attempt at
investigating those crimes. Even Gold faced charges of beating
Belle's father. At least the issue wasn't ignored completely.

Jefferson simply ran away after being kicked out a window. As far as
we can tell, no effort was made to locate him, despite the fact that
he kidnapped two women (one of whom was the town sheriff) and
physically threatened them. There was plenty of proof, and both women
could have testified against him. Instead, he's apparently now back
home, still watching Paige through his telescope and meeting up with
Regina. Emma never warned Paige's parents that their daughter had a
stalker, never looked into Paige's birth parents, and never notified
state authorities that a kidnapper / stalker was on the loose.
Certainly the town residents should have been put on alert, and his
house should have been watched and evidence collected from the scene.
From what we've seen, there was absolutely no investigation or follow-
up whatsoever, despite the fact that Emma was one of the victims. Had
the writers thrown in a few lines suggesting that Emma was at least
making some attempt to locate Jefferson or look into his past, the
storyline wouldn't look so incredibly stupid.

[Hunter]

------
They all remember and were in shock but the fairy was able to respond
faster as demonstrated that she warned Regina to head for the hills
before the torches and pitchforks are broken out for her. They are
going to regret not killing her on the spot LOL!

[David Johnston]

No, he's claiming that Blue Fairy remembers even before then. I never
saw any hint of it.

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 5/15/2012 8:09 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:

>>Professor Bubba<bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:

>>>Hunter <buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>>Professor Bubba <bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:

>>>>>When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
>>>>>happen:

>>>>>Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more than any
>>>>>other townie ever had.

>>>>Charming stopped under his own volition because he remembered, not
>>>>because he was prevented by a magic force, so he did an instant 180 to
>>>>find Snow.

>>>I've just taken another look. Yes, his truck was moving when the
>>>Emmawave hit. I still think it's important that David stops just at or
>>>before he hits the town line. If there were supposed to be
>>>consequences to him crossing the line, he was spared them.

>>The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
>>Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
>>prevents it.

>Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>car.

We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.

[David Johnston]

On 5/15/2012 12:39 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>> The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
>>> Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
>>> prevents it.
>
>> Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>> car.
>
> We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.

We do? She has her mishap where everyone else seems to. Then again it
even seems to happen to Emma and she isn't under the curse.

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 5/15/2012 12:39 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>>>The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
>>>>Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
>>>>prevents it.

>>>Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>>>car.

>>We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.

>We do?

Yes. It was revealed a few weeks later, remember?

>She has her mishap where everyone else seems to.

. . . which nicely distracted Regina.

>Then again it even seems to happen to Emma and she isn't under the curse.

Henry caused her to crash. Henry isn't under the curse either.

[David Johnston]

On 5/15/2012 12:49 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>> On 5/15/2012 12:39 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
>>>>> The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
>>>>> Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
>>>>> prevents it.
>
>>>> Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>>>> car.
>
>>> We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.
>
>> We do?
>
> Yes. It was revealed a few weeks later, remember?

No. How was it established that the curse had nothing to do with it?

>
>> She has her mishap where everyone else seems to.
>
> . . . which nicely distracted Regina.
>
>> Then again it even seems to happen to Emma and she isn't under the curse.
>
> Henry caused her to crash. Henry isn't under the curse either.

Not just that time. Something always seems to stop everyone from
leaving town at the last moment.

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 5/15/2012 12:49 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>>On 5/15/2012 12:39 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>>>>>The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
>>>>>>Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
>>>>>>prevents it.

>>>>>Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>>>>>car.

>>>>We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.

>>>We do?

>>Yes. It was revealed a few weeks later, remember?

>No. How was it established that the curse had nothing to do with it?

That would be the not being dead bit.

>>>She has her mishap where everyone else seems to.

>>. . . which nicely distracted Regina.

>>>Then again it even seems to happen to Emma and she isn't under the curse.

>>Henry caused her to crash. Henry isn't under the curse either.

>Not just that time. Something always seems to stop everyone from
>leaving town at the last moment.

Emma hasn't left out of duty to Henry. That was never magical.

Actually, I'm sure we've seen Emma crossing the boundary when investigating
disappeared people, and didn't we see her leave town once earlier
in the season?

[David Johnston]

On 5/15/2012 1:06 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>> On 5/15/2012 12:49 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>> David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/15/2012 12:39 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
>>>>>>> The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
>>>>>>> Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
>>>>>>> prevents it.
>
>>>>>> Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>>>>>> car.
>
>>>>> We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.
>
>>>> We do?
>
>>> Yes. It was revealed a few weeks later, remember?
>
>> No. How was it established that the curse had nothing to do with it?
>
> That would be the not being dead bit.
>
>>>> She has her mishap where everyone else seems to.
>
>>> . . . which nicely distracted Regina.
>
>>>> Then again it even seems to happen to Emma and she isn't under the curse.
>
>>> Henry caused her to crash. Henry isn't under the curse either.
>
>> Not just that time. Something always seems to stop everyone from
>> leaving town at the last moment.
>
> Emma hasn't left out of duty to Henry.That was never magical.

The first time she tried to leave something put a wolf on the highway to
cause her to have an accident. That wasn't duty to Henry. I'm still
wondering how she managed to make her car stall the time she was driving
the orphans out of town. But they are cursed of course.

>
> Actually, I'm sure we've seen Emma crossing the boundary when investigating
> disappeared people,

There's a wooded area surrounding the town that seems to be within the
invisible fence.

and didn't we see her leave town once earlier
> in the season?

Not that I saw.

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 5/15/2012 1:06 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>>On 5/15/2012 12:49 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>>David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:

>>>>>Then again it even seems to happen to Emma and she isn't under the curse.

>>>>Henry caused her to crash. Henry isn't under the curse either.

>>>Not just that time. Something always seems to stop everyone from
>>>leaving town at the last moment.

>>Emma hasn't left out of duty to Henry.That was never magical.

>The first time she tried to leave something put a wolf on the highway to
>cause her to have an accident. That wasn't duty to Henry.

I wonder if that was Red.

[Ian J. Ball]

On May 15, 11:23 am, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
> On 5/15/2012 1:05 PM, Hunter (Hunter) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 14 May 2012 18:29:02 -0700, "Ian J. Ball"

> > <ijball-NO_S...@mac.invalid>  wrote:
>
> >> In article<4fb129e6.17549...@news.optonline.net>,

> >> Hunter<buffhun...@my-deja.com>  (Hunter) wrote:
>
> >>>> MAJOR SPOILERS warning in the thread title...
>
> >>>>> S
> >>>>> P
> >>>>> O
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> L
> >>>>> E
> >>>>> R
> >>>>> S
>
> >>>>> A
> >>>>> R
> >>>>> E
>
> >>>>> B
> >>>>> E
> >>>>> L
> >>>>> O
> >>>>> W
>
> >>>> <snippage>
> >>>

> >>> I don't think that was ever a problem. Only a few selected people
> >>> knew, those who had control of Magic, Regina, Gold and Jefferson; and
> >>> those created by magic like August.
>
> >> Blue Fairy also seemed to remember, though they were vague on that
> >> point.
> >

> > They all remember and were in shock but...

>
> No, he's claiming that Blue Fairy remembers even before then.  I never
> saw any hint of it.

I think there were hints. But they were subtle to the point that I'm
unsure if they were supposed to be there, or not.

[tdciago]

On May 15, 2:39 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

> >Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
> >car.
>
> We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.

Actually, the accident that caused Kathryn to go off the road just
before leaving town *would* have been due to the curse. It's still
not clear who then abducted her, but both Regina and Gold would have
known that Kathryn wouldn't make it past the town limits. Since
Regina thought Gold had actually killed Kathryn, he was probably the
one who abducted and drugged her, rather than Sydney. In any case,
someone in the know simply took advantage of the knowledge that her
car was not going to make it out of town.

Regarding the question of Emma leaving town, the only time we saw her
do so was when August took her to the diner where he brought her when
she was an infant.

[Hunter]

On Mon, 14 May 2012 10:19:35 -0700, ~consul
<con...@dolphinsTAKEAWAY-cove.com> wrote:

>'tis on this 5/13/2012 9:35 PM, wrote JRStern thus to say:
>> On Sun, 13 May 2012 22:35:21 -0400, "KalElFan"
>> <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Methinks an Avengers guest star or two might also do wonders for
>>>>> ratings. :-)
>>>>
>>>> hmm, .... pretty big gap in genres, there.
>>>
>>> Not really -- "every story book character you've ever known" could
>>> certainly include comic book characters.
>>
>> Gack.
>>
>> So how about:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_Popnecker
>
>holy frak, talk about comic-book nerd fantasy!
>
>> Leave it to Disney to disambiguate from the Volkswagen of the same name.
>
>I thought Emma's car was a slight homage to it. It would break down at the most convenient times.
-----
I don't think so, I think it maybe what some people speculated at the
begining of the season. That it being a German car that it was a nod
to the Brothers Grimm fairytales which were German. The same was
thought with a more obvious link with the NBC show "Grimm".

I think if it was Herbie tribute the car would've demonstrated some
kind of mistycal ability even in our world in Storybrooke, but it
displayed no more magical powers or enchantment than Charming's pickup
truck did. The Bug wasn't even white.

[Adam H. Kerman]

tdciago <tdc...@aol.com> wrote:
>On May 15, 2:39 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

>>>Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>>>car.

>>We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.

>Actually, the accident that caused Kathryn to go off the road just
>before leaving town *would* have been due to the curse.

I don't agree. We know from Henry's description of past events that leaving
town means apparent accidental death.

There are two possibilities:

1) She's truly dead, and the resurrected person is something inhuman.
2) What I said

>It's still not clear who then abducted her, but both Regina and Gold
>would have known that Kathryn wouldn't make it past the town limits.

It may not be clear to you. It's sure as hell clear to me.

>Since Regina thought Gold had actually killed Kathryn, he was probably
>the one who abducted and drugged her, rather than Sydney.

Sydney had no role, except to cover up for Regina's crimes.

>In any case, someone in the know simply took advantage of the knowledge
>that her car was not going to make it out of town.

Yeah. Who could that have possibly been?

>Regarding the question of Emma leaving town, the only time we saw her
>do so was when August took her to the diner where he brought her when
>she was an infant.

I was thinking of earlier in the season. I have a vague recollection that
she went somewhere to look up a record.

[David Johnston]

On 5/15/2012 2:52 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> tdciago<tdc...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On May 15, 2:39 pm, "Adam H. Kerman"<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>> David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>>>> car.
>
>>> We know THAT had nothing to do witht he curse.
>
>> Actually, the accident that caused Kathryn to go off the road just
>> before leaving town *would* have been due to the curse.
>
> I don't agree. We know from Henry's description of past events that leaving
> town means apparent accidental death.

I recall Henry being vaguer than that.

[Dragon Lady]

"Professor Bubba" <bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote in message
news:140520120814352248%bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid...

> In article <4fb0f2d4...@news.optonline.net>, Hunter
> <buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>> Gold definitely will get his magic. It is the reason he brought magic
>> into our world so he can use it and have power. Regina definitely
>> will. Emma being a being of magic and not normal should if only to
>> stand up against Gold and/or Regina, Charming didn't work magic in
>> Fairytale land so I don't see a reason he will here unless he actively
>> learns how to use it. The Mad Hatter definitely will; Jiminy Cricket
>> didn't seem magical in Fairytale land so I doubt it unless he like
>> Charming chooses to learn it. One thing for sure I doubt he will turn
>> back into an insect (and gold will keep looking normal I think). I do
>> hope Regina goes back to wearing low cut tops instead of business
>> clothing.
>>
>> I do wonder if the magic in our world will be confined to Storybrooke,
>> Maine or will it spread through out the world as you mentioned as a
>> possibility.
>>
>> Good season finale, and it made Emma believe in a, well, believable
>> way. She was desperate and then was "zapped" by the book, instead of
>> being persuaded by a bunch of "nuts."
>
>

> When the curse was supposedly broken by Emma, look at what *didn't*
> happen:
>
> Charming didn't get past the Storybrooke town line any more than any
> other townie ever had.
>

> While most? all? the people of Storybrooke recovered most? all? of
> their memories, no one seems to have acted on them except for the Blue
> Fairy and Charming. Everybody just sat there like a rock, or (like
> Snow) wandered around town in a daze, perhaps sorting things out. If
> the curse had actually been broken, you could reasonably expect things
> to have reverted to the status quo ante, with everyone back in their
> normal lives and settings in the fairytale world.

Well, Gold/Rumplestiltskin certainly took action.

>
> In sum, I don't think the curse has been broken. Instead, it has been
> changed. Rumpelstiltskin built in a fail-safe.

Of course he did. Look who he is!

>
> We know that Rumpelstiltskin put a back door in the curse. I think
> we're going to find out that this new situation is no accident, but is
> part of that back door. Rumpelstiltskin has made himself the most
> powerful being in Storybrooke. Odds are that he thought the curse
> would inevitably be broken.

Thought? He set it up. This is all looking like it was his plan. He set
Regina up to cast the thing, he hid the potion in Maleficent (what the hell
happened to Sleeping Beauty? Why was it Charming who fought the
dragon/Meleficent?), and IIRC, he also set it up for Emma to be sent to our
world.

[Dragon Lady]

"Hunter (Hunter)" <buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:4fb129e6...@news.optonline.net...

> On Sun, 13 May 2012 21:27:08 -0400, "KalElFan"
> <kale...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>
>>"KalElFan" wrote in message news:a1b3dh...@mid.individual.net...
>>

>>MAJOR SPOILERS warning in the thread title...
>>
>>> S
>>> P
>>> O
>>> I
>>> L
>>> E
>>> R
>>> S
>>>
>>> A
>>> R
>>> E
>>>
>>> B
>>> E
>>> L
>>> O
>>> W
>>
>><snippage>
>>

>>> The tweak that keeps it going into season 2 is that no one's
>>> returned to Storybrooke...
>>
>>That should have read "no one's returned to the fairy tale
>>realm..."
>>
>>The characters all seem to have their Storybrooke memories
>>though, along with their fairy tale memories. Snow is walking
>>along the street, seeming doubtful about the memories and it
>>isn't until Charming calls her "Snow" that she seems to realize
>>everyone has had their memories restored.
> ------
> That is how I read it to. The whole town is likely to be like that.
> Their real memories conflicting with the lives they have lead for the
> past 28 years and what they considered "impossible", so they are
> bewildered.
>>
>>So this season finale also does an end run around the huge
>>problem they would have had with ever wiping all of their
>>Storybrooke memories. They're all continuous characters at
>>this point and will presumably remain so.
> ------

> I don't think that was ever a problem. Only a few selected people
> knew, those who had control of Magic, Regina, Gold and Jefferson; and
> those created by magic like August.

I would argue that August did not remember because he was created by magic,
but because he was not subject to the curse, having come through with Emma
before the curse was cast, and when he was old enough to remember being
Pinocchio.

[Hunter]

On Tue, 15 May 2012 12:23:46 -0600, David Johnston <Da...@block.net>
wrote:

----
In that case I don't think so. Since the fairies were nuns in our
world they seemed mystical and talked mystically given their jobs, but
I don't think Grumpy's would be girlfriend remembered anything about
the Fairlytale Realm. If there were any signs I have forgotten it.

[Dragon Lady]

"tdciago" <tdc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c1900919-7944-440e...@8g2000vbu.googlegroups.com...
>I'm posting through Google Groups because I can't find this thread on
>recgroups.com, so I don't know if or when this will show up outside of
>Google. Anyway...
>
>On May 13, 8:53 pm, "KalElFan" <kalel...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
>> But for a minor tweak in the final few minutes, this really played as
>> a perfect finale to a 22-episode series.
>
>It definitely felt like a series finale (though I wouldn't describe it
>as perfect), and I don't think that's a good thing. They tossed a
>premise that they couldn't sustain for more than one season, and it
>felt forced and rushed. To me, it also played like a dream sequence.
>Too many big, crazy things happening too suddenly, instead of feeling
>like they were organic to the storyline. I kept waiting for someone
>to wake up.

I suspect it was written as a series finale, with the last bit added on in
case they were renewed, After all, they weren't renewed until May 10th,
which was probably *after* this episode was filmed.

>Emma, who has handled the book many times, touches it for the
>hundredth time and instantly BELIEVES. The efforts of the people who
>tried to get her to believe were wasted. It only took magic, which
>doesn't exist in our world. For some reason, the sleeping curse has
>the unexpected side effect of making Emma believe. Why? Doesn't
>matter. The writers covered this by having Regina say that magic in
>our world was unpredictable.

I don't think the sleeping curse "made her believe" so much as it woke her
up, broke through the denial that wouldn't allow her to believe.

>What *wasn't* unpredictable was the method by which Henry was
>restored. My daughter said it either had to be a kiss or tears.
>Voila! We got both.

Well, of course. It's already an established fact that "true love" can
break the sleeping curse. There are, after all, two fairy tales in which
this happens.

>I think the double Maleficent battles would've worked better if we
>hadn't already seen Charming slay a dragon. They should've had him
>kill some other troublesome beast earlier in the series. The effect
>of having the dragon below the library, accessible via elevator, also
>felt too much like the mine situation. That's where I initially
>thought Maleficent in dragon form would be found.

Ah, but Charming was not supposed to slay the dragon. He was the one who
hid the potion inside the dragon. That was the price Rumplestiltskin
demanded in return for the enchanted ring that would lead him the Snow.

>I haven't seen anyone suggest the possibility that the purple smoke
>will wipe out their newly restored memories. I don't necessarily
>think this will happen, but it's a possibility. Also,

God, I hope not!

>Rumplestiltskin / Gold is back to square one in terms of motivation.

Not really, His goad was never to find Belle. He thought she was dead. He
goal is to find his son, and he probably doesn't know how to do that without
magic.

>So much for wanting to find Baelfire. He just wants his power back.
>This will certainly alienate him from Belle again. It's a reset
>button that negates the progress he seemed to be making in terms of
>being a sympathetic character.

Yeah, but it's also perfectly in character for him.

>Jefferson is still wandering around Storybrooke, having suffered no
>consequences for his crimes.

Which crimes? If you're talking about helping Regina, he's hardly the first
to do that, and she's certainly not going to tell on him. Nor does she need
to if she gets her power back.

[Dragon Lady]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:jortvf$vpf$1...@news.albasani.net...

> KalElFan <kale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>MAJOR SPOILERS warning in the thread title...
>
>>S
>>P
>>O
>>I
>>L
>>E
>>R
>>S
>>
>>A
>>R
>>E
>>
>>B
>>E
>>L
>>O
>>W
>

>>But for a minor tweak in the final few minutes, this really played as

>>a perfect finale to a 22-episode series. It's an extremely busy episode.
>>How busy? Emma wakes up early on, after being basically zapped by
>>the book, and by the end of the ep she's kicked dragon ass using her
>>father's sword, brought Henry back to life, lifted the curse, and brought
>>everyone's memory back. The episode basically pays off on everything,
>>and again as if it were a series finale.
>
> I really wanted the special effect for Emma finally believing Henry to
> be a mallet hitting her on the skull.
>
> It was nice to have many major plot points resolved, even though I'm
> still confused about why Rumpelstilskin gave Wicked Queen the curse
> in the first place... Yeah, something about his son, I know, but it
> didn't make a lot of sense.

He's trying to find his son, whom he believes entered our world through the
portal the blue fairy provided.

[Dragon Lady]

"Genestro" <genest...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jos5g2$8ir$2...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 14/05/2012 7:44 PM, David Johnston wrote:

>> On 5/14/2012 10:02 AM, tdciago wrote:
>>> Jefferson is still wandering around Storybrooke, having suffered no
>>> consequences for his crimes.
>>

>> What crimes would those be?
>

> Kidnapping, for one.

Yeah, I don't think Emma has found him yet. She's been kind of busy.

[Dragon Lady]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message

news:josthf$aum$1...@news.albasani.net...
> tdciago <tdc...@aol.com> wrote:
>>On May 14, 7:44 pm, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>
>>>He wants it all. He wants his magic, his son, his freedom, his
>>>girlfriend.
>
>>He can't have it all. If he wants Baelfire and Belle, he's got to
>>relinquish the magic and his love of the power it brings. Like I
>>said, he's back to square one.
>
> Then he's already lost, according to the backstory. He can't relinquish
> the magic without setting himself up to be murdered.

Yes he can. According the the backstory, true love's kiss (ie: Belle's
kiss) would break the spell on him just as it did the one on Snow and Henry.

[Dragon Lady]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message

news:joub9f$d3i$3...@news.albasani.net...

No magic at that point. I thought it was the wolf that was friends with the
huntsman.

[suzeeq]

Yes, more along the lines of 'something bad happens' which is pretty vague.

[Hunter]

----
I completely agree. I forgot the timing.

[Barry Margolin]

In article <jou8r3$fa1$1...@dont-email.me>,

That's my point -- it's never shown acting in an overtly magical manner.
But somehow the cursed townspeople never leave. It reminds me of an old
Jewish joke I just read:

Moshe is driving in Jerusalem . He's late for a meeting; he's looking
for a parking place, and can't find one.
In desperation, he turns towards heaven and says: "Lord, if you find me
a parking place, I promise that I'll eat only kosher, respect the
Sabbath, and all the holidays.³
Miraculously, a place opens up just in front of him.
He turns his face up to heaven and says, "Never mind, I just found one!"

--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

[Barry Margolin]

In article <joupj9$g4$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Dragon Lady" <sgt...@comcast.net> wrote:

> "tdciago" <tdc...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:c1900919-7944-440e...@8g2000vbu.googlegroups.com...
> >I'm posting through Google Groups because I can't find this thread on
> >recgroups.com, so I don't know if or when this will show up outside of
> >Google. Anyway...
> >
> >On May 13, 8:53 pm, "KalElFan" <kalel...@yanospamhoo.com> wrote:
> >> But for a minor tweak in the final few minutes, this really played as
> >> a perfect finale to a 22-episode series.
> >
> >It definitely felt like a series finale (though I wouldn't describe it
> >as perfect), and I don't think that's a good thing. They tossed a
> >premise that they couldn't sustain for more than one season, and it
> >felt forced and rushed. To me, it also played like a dream sequence.
> >Too many big, crazy things happening too suddenly, instead of feeling
> >like they were organic to the storyline. I kept waiting for someone
> >to wake up.
>
> I suspect it was written as a series finale, with the last bit added on in
> case they were renewed, After all, they weren't renewed until May 10th,
> which was probably *after* this episode was filmed.

This was one of ABC's biggest hits of the new season. By the time they
were writing this episode, I can't imagine there was any doubt about its
renewal.

[Jim G.]

Ian J. Ball sent the following on 5/14/2012 8:29 PM:

> In article<4fb129e6...@news.optonline.net>,
> Hunter<buffh...@my-deja.com> (Hunter) wrote:
>

> Blue Fairy also seemed to remember, though they were vague on that
> point.

They all seemed to remember after the curse was broken. For her part,
didn't the BF say something to Regina about how she should run for her
life, or some such thing--suggesting that everyone would know just
exactly what Queen Cleavage had done to them?

--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
"I find it's best if you just ... go with it." -- Lincoln Lee, providing
us with FRINGE's "Every question just leads to more questions" moment

[Genestro]

On 15/05/2012 7:28 PM, Dragon Lady wrote:
> Thought? He set it up. This is all looking like it was his plan. He set
> Regina up to cast the thing, he hid the potion in Maleficent (what the
> hell happened to Sleeping Beauty? Why was it Charming who fought the
> dragon/Meleficent?),

It looks to me like OuAT has Sleeping Beauty and Snow White the same
person. Charming deals with Maleficent, wakes up girl is more or less
the same as Sleeping Beauty's plotline isn't it?

> and IIRC, he also set it up for Emma to be sent to
> our world.

He did indeed, in a scene in the pilot where he's jailed and Snow asks
him for help with Regina's threatened unleashing of the curse.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Genestro <genest...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 15/05/2012 7:28 PM, Dragon Lady wrote:

>>Thought? He set it up. This is all looking like it was his plan. He set
>>Regina up to cast the thing, he hid the potion in Maleficent (what the
>>hell happened to Sleeping Beauty? Why was it Charming who fought the
>>dragon/Meleficent?),

>It looks to me like OuAT has Sleeping Beauty and Snow White the same
>person. Charming deals with Maleficent, wakes up girl is more or less
>the same as Sleeping Beauty's plotline isn't it?

Because Prince Charming is a bigamist. He's married to Snow White, Sleeping
Beauty, and Cinderella.

[tdciago]

On May 15, 4:52 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> I don't agree. We know from Henry's description of past events that leaving
> town means apparent accidental death.

Henry never said any such thing. He just said that bad things would
happen if people tried to leave. We haven't seen anyone under the
curse make it past the "Leaving Storybrooke" sign, so no one has died
from leaving town as far as we know. Ashley tried to leave in Ruby's
car and it went off the side of the road, just like Kathryn's car.
Obviously Ashley didn't die. Emma took her to the hospital, where she
delivered her baby.

> There are two possibilities:
>
> 1) She's truly dead, and the resurrected person is something inhuman.

Oh, good grief. She's not dead.

> 2) What I said

Kathryn is very much alive. Her car never made it out of
Storybrooke. The gym teacher (Frederick) discovered it empty inside
town limits. Kathryn remembered the accident, but nothing afterward
until she was already being held captive.

> >It's still not clear who then abducted her, but both Regina and Gold
> >would have known that Kathryn wouldn't make it past the town limits.
>
> It may not be clear to you. It's sure as hell clear to me.

Really? Who was it? Regina was shown burning Kathryn's letter at the
same time that Kathryn was driving toward the edge of town, and
Frederick was finding her car. It's possible that the two things
weren't supposed to be happening simultaneously, but there are still
three possible abductors: Gold, Sydney, or Regina. However, at some
point we know that Gold took sole custody of Kathryn and kept her
hidden. We know that because Regina was under the impression that
Gold had killed Kathryn, so neither she nor Sydney were keeping her
prisoner or faking the DNA results.

> Sydney had no role, except to cover up for Regina's crimes.

We actually don't know how much he may have done before Gold took
custody of Kathryn.

> >In any case, someone in the know simply took advantage of the knowledge
> >that her car was not going to make it out of town.
>
> Yeah. Who could that have possibly been?

Obviously Regina was the one who found out that Kathryn was leaving,
because Kathryn told her. She may have had Gold or Sydney wait near
the sign for the inevitable accident, or she was there herself, though
it looks as though she was burning the letter at that time. I'm
really not even sure what point you're trying to make. The curse
prevented Kathryn's car from leaving, and then she was abducted.
You're under the mistaken impression that Henry said people who leave
Storybrooke die. Not only didn't he say that, but Kathryn never got
out of town.

> I was thinking of earlier in the season. I have a vague recollection that
> she went somewhere to look up a record.

She was never shown leaving town once she arrived, until August took
her to that diner. I don't believe they ever made reference to her
physically leaving to look up a record outside of Storybrooke.

[David Johnston]

On 5/16/2012 9:00 AM, Jim G. wrote:

> They all seemed to remember after the curse was broken. For her part,
> didn't the BF say something to Regina about how she should run for her
> life, or some such thing--suggesting that everyone would know just
> exactly what Queen Cleavage had done to them?
>

Well the ones who didn't know about the coming curse are going to have
questions and Snow and Whatsisname are going to answer them.

[David Johnston]

No, that's Fables. There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping
Beauty but Cinderella has her own Prince.

[tdciago]

On May 15, 7:45 pm, "Dragon Lady" <sgts...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Yeah, I don't think Emma has found him yet.

Because she hasn't even looked. Not that she'd have to look very
far. He's either been back in his own house, spying on Paige through
his telescope, or he's been hanging around outside her school. That's
how he was able to see the White Rabbit card that Regina put on
Paige's bike.

Of course, neither of those options should even be possible, since
there should have been an alert that a dangerous kidnapper was on the
loose in Maine, and his home should have been secured.

> She's been kind of busy.

Emma wasn't too busy to take a little motorcycle trip with August, or
to sit around with Henry outside school, noting the resemblance of
Jefferson and Paige to the Hatter and Grace.

Now that the writers have changed the game, the absurdity of her lack
of investigation will conveniently become a moot point.

[Genestro]

Wouldn't that make him a trigamist?

[tdciago]

On May 15, 7:41 pm, "Dragon Lady" <sgts...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ah, but Charming was not supposed to slay the dragon.  He was the one who
> hid the potion inside the dragon.  That was the price Rumplestiltskin
> demanded in return for the enchanted ring that would lead him the Snow.

I realize that. I'm just saying that we already had a battle with an
anonymous dragon back in the Uponiverse, which lessened the impact of
seeing Maleficent in dragon form in this episode. If they'd had
Charming kill some other beast for Midas, then the Maleficent scenes
in this episode would have felt more exciting and original. Midas
even mentioned the Chimera and some other beastly trophy that he had.
I felt they should have reserved the appearance of a dragon for
Maleficent's reveal.

> Not really,  His goad was never to find Belle.  He thought she was dead.  He
> goal is to find his son, and he probably doesn't know how to do that without
> magic.

I understand that he thought Belle was dead, but now he's back to the
same relationship glitch he had with her in the Uponiverse, and with
his son as well, if he ever locates him.

And I think people may be missing the importance of the well water.
If it can return something to you that you've lost, then Gold should
have used it to return Baelfire to him, not to restore his ability to
use magic. If Baelfire was really the most important thing to Gold,
his true heart's desire, then Baelfire would have been the thing he
chose. His true motivation was revealed.

It really doesn't make sense, given the fact that he turned the sword
over to August when he thought he was Baelfire, and told him to
destroy it. He was apparently willing to give up the magic for his
son at that moment, but then he turns around and chooses magic in the
finale.

> Which crimes?  If you're talking about helping Regina, he's hardly the first
> to do that, and she's certainly not going to tell on him.  Nor does she need
> to if she gets her power back.

Wow, there seems to be collective amnesia regarding Jefferson's
abduction of Mary Margaret and Emma.

[Adam H. Kerman]

tdciago <tdc...@aol.com> wrote:
>On May 15, 4:52 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>>I don't agree. We know from Henry's description of past events that leaving
>>town means apparent accidental death.

>Henry never said any such thing. He just said that bad things would
>happen if people tried to leave. We haven't seen anyone under the
>curse make it past the "Leaving Storybrooke" sign, so no one has died
>from leaving town as far as we know.

Henry never stated that everyone who tried to leave was forced to stay.
The ones who aren't in Storybrooke are dead.

>>>It's still not clear who then abducted [Kathryn], but both Regina and Gold

>>>would have known that Kathryn wouldn't make it past the town limits.

>>It may not be clear to you. It's sure as hell clear to me.

>Really? Who was it? Regina was shown burning Kathryn's letter at the
>same time that Kathryn was driving toward the edge of town, and
>Frederick was finding her car. It's possible that the two things
>weren't supposed to be happening simultaneously, but there are still
>three possible abductors: Gold, Sydney, or Regina. However, at some
>point we know that Gold took sole custody of Kathryn and kept her
>hidden. We know that because Regina was under the impression that
>Gold had killed Kathryn, so neither she nor Sydney were keeping her
>prisoner or faking the DNA results.

When Regina confronted Gold on breaking the deal (which Gold denied),
that was the revelation that Gold was behind it.

>>Sydney had no role, except to cover up for Regina's crimes.

>We actually don't know how much he may have done before Gold took
>custody of Kathryn.

Of course we do! Regina wanted Kathryn dead. Mirror boy would have obeyed.
Does Gold require Regina's henchman to carry out his nefarious schemes?
Not unless Gold was setting up Regina.

>>>In any case, someone in the know simply took advantage of the knowledge
>>>that her car was not going to make it out of town.

>>Yeah. Who could that have possibly been?

>Obviously Regina was the one who found out that Kathryn was leaving,
>because Kathryn told her. She may have had Gold or Sydney wait near
>the sign for the inevitable accident, or she was there herself, though
>it looks as though she was burning the letter at that time. I'm
>really not even sure what point you're trying to make.

Regina and Gold made their deal before Kathryn left. Gold arranged everything
else.

>The curse prevented Kathryn's car from leaving, and then she was abducted.
>You're under the mistaken impression that Henry said people who leave
>Storybrooke die. Not only didn't he say that, but Kathryn never got
>out of town.

Then that hardly contradicts what I said, does it.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Hm? Sleeping Beauty was collected by the Grimms, but has its own known
author, which I'd not read till I just looked it up in Wikipedia. The
Grimms split it into separate stories, including an Evil Mother-in-Law
story.

No one's ever seen the three princes together at the same time...

[anim8rFSK]

In article <jp0mv7$l9d$5...@news.albasani.net>,

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

Wouldn't that make him a trigamist?

--
So we're all agreed that Clod is as stupid as Charlie Sheen?

[David Johnston]

On 5/16/2012 11:59 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>> On 5/16/2012 11:08 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>> Genestro<genest...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2012 7:28 PM, Dragon Lady wrote:
>
>>>>> Thought? He set it up. This is all looking like it was his plan. He set
>>>>> Regina up to cast the thing, he hid the potion in Maleficent (what the
>>>>> hell happened to Sleeping Beauty? Why was it Charming who fought the
>>>>> dragon/Meleficent?),
>
>>>> It looks to me like OuAT has Sleeping Beauty and Snow White the same
>>>> person. Charming deals with Maleficent, wakes up girl is more or less
>>>> the same as Sleeping Beauty's plotline isn't it?
>
>>> Because Prince Charming is a bigamist. He's married to Snow White, Sleeping
>>> Beauty, and Cinderella.
>
>> No, that's Fables. There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping
>> Beauty but Cinderella has her own Prince.
>
> Hm? Sleeping Beauty was collected by the Grimms, but has its own known
> author,

There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping Beauty on OUaT. Comatose
chick revived by a kiss is a feature of multiple fairy tales, like
"Magical woman becomes man's bride until he fails to do the one thing
she asked of him and she takes off".

[Genestro]

On 16/05/2012 1:54 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> tdciago<tdc...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On May 15, 4:52 pm, "Adam H. Kerman"<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>> I don't agree. We know from Henry's description of past events that leaving
>>> town means apparent accidental death.
>
>> Henry never said any such thing. He just said that bad things would
>> happen if people tried to leave. We haven't seen anyone under the
>> curse make it past the "Leaving Storybrooke" sign, so no one has died
>>from leaving town as far as we know.
>
> Henry never stated that everyone who tried to leave was forced to stay.
> The ones who aren't in Storybrooke are dead.

[citation needed]

[Barry Margolin]

In article <jp0ses$ng2$1...@dont-email.me>,

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

> On 5/16/2012 11:59 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> > David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
> >> On 5/16/2012 11:08 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> >>> Genestro<genest...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On 15/05/2012 7:28 PM, Dragon Lady wrote:
> >
> >>>>> Thought? He set it up. This is all looking like it was his plan. He set
> >>>>> Regina up to cast the thing, he hid the potion in Maleficent (what the
> >>>>> hell happened to Sleeping Beauty? Why was it Charming who fought the
> >>>>> dragon/Meleficent?),
> >
> >>>> It looks to me like OuAT has Sleeping Beauty and Snow White the same
> >>>> person. Charming deals with Maleficent, wakes up girl is more or less
> >>>> the same as Sleeping Beauty's plotline isn't it?
> >
> >>> Because Prince Charming is a bigamist. He's married to Snow White,
> >>> Sleeping
> >>> Beauty, and Cinderella.
> >
> >> No, that's Fables. There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping
> >> Beauty but Cinderella has her own Prince.
> >
> > Hm? Sleeping Beauty was collected by the Grimms, but has its own known
> > author,
>
> There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping Beauty on OUaT.

Not *yet*.

> Comatose
> chick revived by a kiss is a feature of multiple fairy tales

Multiple, or just two? What are the others beside Sleeping Beauty (where
it's pretty much the whole story) and Snow White (where it's just one
piece of the plot)?

[Adam H. Kerman]

If I'm in the mood, I'll rewatch the pilot and find the line.

[Adam H. Kerman]

David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 5/16/2012 11:59 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>>On 5/16/2012 11:08 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>>Genestro<genest...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>On 15/05/2012 7:28 PM, Dragon Lady wrote:

>>>>>>Thought? He set it up. This is all looking like it was his plan. He set
>>>>>>Regina up to cast the thing, he hid the potion in Maleficent (what the
>>>>>>hell happened to Sleeping Beauty? Why was it Charming who fought the
>>>>>>dragon/Meleficent?),

>>>>>It looks to me like OuAT has Sleeping Beauty and Snow White the same
>>>>>person. Charming deals with Maleficent, wakes up girl is more or less
>>>>>the same as Sleeping Beauty's plotline isn't it?

>>>>Because Prince Charming is a bigamist. He's married to Snow White, Sleeping
>>>>Beauty, and Cinderella.

>>>No, that's Fables. There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping
>>>Beauty but Cinderella has her own Prince.

>>Hm? Sleeping Beauty was collected by the Grimms, but has its own known
>>author,

>There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping Beauty on OUaT.

Uh, David? You've quoted someone who observed that elements of Sleeping
Beauty's story were used in Snow White's story.

>Comatose chick revived by a kiss is a feature of multiple fairy tales,
>like "Magical woman becomes man's bride until he fails to do the one
>thing she asked of him and she takes off".

hahahahaha

[David Johnston]

Surlalune collected seventy of them.

http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/press/sleepingbeauties.html

While some of them are same story with a different name for the heroine
like "Briar Rose", the oldest one I know, is the rescue of Brynhilde
from the ring of fire by Siegfried, and there are a lot of variations,
like the Italian one where she's outright raped while comatose, and is
only awakened by giving birth.

[David Johnston]

On 5/16/2012 1:21 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>> On 5/16/2012 11:59 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>> David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/16/2012 11:08 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>>> Genestro<genest...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/05/2012 7:28 PM, Dragon Lady wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Thought? He set it up. This is all looking like it was his plan. He set
>>>>>>> Regina up to cast the thing, he hid the potion in Maleficent (what the
>>>>>>> hell happened to Sleeping Beauty? Why was it Charming who fought the
>>>>>>> dragon/Meleficent?),
>
>>>>>> It looks to me like OuAT has Sleeping Beauty and Snow White the same
>>>>>> person. Charming deals with Maleficent, wakes up girl is more or less
>>>>>> the same as Sleeping Beauty's plotline isn't it?
>
>>>>> Because Prince Charming is a bigamist. He's married to Snow White, Sleeping
>>>>> Beauty, and Cinderella.
>
>>>> No, that's Fables. There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping
>>>> Beauty but Cinderella has her own Prince.
>
>>> Hm? Sleeping Beauty was collected by the Grimms, but has its own known
>>> author,
>
>> There doesn't appear to be a separate Sleeping Beauty on OUaT.
>
> Uh, David? You've quoted someone who observed that elements of Sleeping
> Beauty's story were used in Snow White's story.

I know.

[~consul]

'tis on this 5/14/2012 5:55 PM, wrote KalElFan thus to say:
> Regina seems happy about the development too. Her alternative,
> as the Blue Fairy mentioned, would be to hide. She'd probably
> have been imprisoned in Belle's cell. But now she's as or more
> skilled than Rumpel when it comes to magic.

Maybe, I think he has more power, but she wasn't as arrogant to get caught. I know, I know, her not being arrogant! :D

> If the writers/PTB are uber-stupid, they could have Regina or the
> "magic shock wave" wipe out everyone's memory once again in
> the season 2 premiere, thereby resetting the show. I think the
> ratings would tank and it'd be cancelled before the end of the
> season, maybe before year-end. Regina exercising the power
> of magic to defend herself, maintain control, keep Gold at bay
> and so on will be a good dynamic for the show. They all need
> to keep their memories though or I think the show's done.

There are two waves though. The first wave which everyone saw is the "remove memory blocks" wave. The second wave is the purple cloud. It could be "restore everyone's magic into Storybooke" or "whisk folks back to FantasyLand" or some 3rd option.

> Regina and Rumpel, possibly along with Emma as she develops
> more magical ability, will probably have the strongest "powers".

What magic did Emma have? I still don't necessarily see her as having any magic. She is a tool, not an active instrument. Like the clock not moving. It didn't move because another agent was preventing it. Emma is a normal item that has actions done on her, or she is the key that fits the locks.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, consul -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

[~consul]

'tis on this 5/15/2012 7:24 AM, wrote David Johnston thus to say:
> On 5/15/2012 8:09 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:
>> Professor Bubba<bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>> I've just taken another look. Yes, his truck was moving when the
>>> Emmawave hit. I still think it's important that David stops just at or
>>> before he hits the town line. If there were supposed to be
>>> consequences to him crossing the line, he was spared them.

>> The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
>> Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
>> prevents it.
> Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her car.

They never addressed that right? I think maybe it was Jefferson. He seems to be the one that is conveniently nearby when someone can be abducted, to abduct them. Maybe per Regina's orders.

[David Johnston]

On 5/16/2012 4:01 PM, ~consul wrote:
> 'tis on this 5/15/2012 7:24 AM, wrote David Johnston thus to say:
>> On 5/15/2012 8:09 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:
>>> Professor Bubba<bu...@nowhere.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>>> I've just taken another look. Yes, his truck was moving when the
>>>> Emmawave hit. I still think it's important that David stops just at or
>>>> before he hits the town line. If there were supposed to be
>>>> consequences to him crossing the line, he was spared them.
>>> The show has always been very clever about this part of the curse.
>>> Whenever someone starts to leave the town, something that seems natural
>>> prevents it.
>> Except for Princess Midas who just seemed to disappear from out of her
>> car.
>
> They never addressed that right? I think maybe it was Jefferson. He
> seems to be the one that is conveniently nearby when someone can be
> abducted, to abduct them. Maybe per Regina's orders.

Jefferson had no arrangement with Regina at that time.

[Barry Margolin]

In article <jp17rt$ola$1...@gist.usc.edu>,

~consul <con...@dolphinsTAKEAWAY-cove.com> wrote:

> 'tis on this 5/14/2012 5:55 PM, wrote KalElFan thus to say:
> > If the writers/PTB are uber-stupid, they could have Regina or the
> > "magic shock wave" wipe out everyone's memory once again in
> > the season 2 premiere, thereby resetting the show. I think the
> > ratings would tank and it'd be cancelled before the end of the
> > season, maybe before year-end. Regina exercising the power
> > of magic to defend herself, maintain control, keep Gold at bay
> > and so on will be a good dynamic for the show. They all need
> > to keep their memories though or I think the show's done.
>
> There are two waves though. The first wave which everyone saw is the "remove
> memory blocks" wave. The second wave is the purple cloud. It could be
> "restore everyone's magic into Storybooke" or "whisk folks back to
> FantasyLand" or some 3rd option.

The way I saw it, the purple cloud was the wave that restored everyone's
memory.

[~consul]

Nothing long-standing that came to fruition recently? He is trying to create the magic hat, spies on his daughter, but he doesn't have any collusion wtih Regina for anything? I could see her comment about letting him stay meaning "staying in that big house even though he has no other visible means of economic support doing whatever you want as long as you keep out of my hair and grab folks for me."

[David Johnston]

I don't understand how how you could have seen it that way. Belle
suddenly announced that her memories had returned as Gold was on his way
to unleash the purple cloud.