Voyager Finale (was Shark-jumping)
Steven O.
finale, I thought I'd open a new thread.
I suspect the main reason they botched it was because they wanted to
evade what really needed to be addressed: What was Starfleet going to
do with the former Maqui crew members (not to mention Tom Paris) once
they got back home. One viable option for a real finale would have
been to just get them home, any old way (a convenient wormhole pops
up), and then address the question: What do you do with former
traitors and criminals who none-the-less proved loyal once compelled
to become Starfleet members?
Other options:
Have the crew get home, but Janeway has to somehow die to make it
happen. (Would serve her right, for her idiot judgment calls in
Caretaker that got them stranded in the first place.)
Have the crew never get home -- they choose to sacrifice their chance
for return, in order to (once again) save some alient species, at the
cost of losing the ship and setting up shop permanently on some planet
across the galaxies.
There are probably other interesting possibilities -- any
suggestions!?
Steve O.
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ANIM8Rfsk
<< I suspect the main reason they botched it was because they wanted to
evade what really needed to be addressed: What was Starfleet going to
do with the former Maqui crew members (not to mention Tom Paris) once
they got back home. >>
Except they DID address it. In the stupid alternate universe flashback
opening.
What's the problem with Paris? He got a pardon to go with Janeway.
<< Have the crew get home, but Janeway has to somehow die to make it
happen. >>
I don't care if the crew gets home, but I like the rest of it.
<< (Would serve her right, for her idiot judgment calls in
Caretaker that got them stranded in the first place.) >>
And refusing to sleep with Q in exchange for him leaving Voyager in orbit
around Earth. Every one of the crew that died from that moment on, she killed.
Uniblab
I wanted to see what happened after the crew returned home. Perhaps the
whole thing should have been done as an arc, where the crew gets home about
four or five episodes before the finale. Then, we could have seen how
Starfleet dealt with the Maquis, how Seven adjusted to Earth, what happened
with Janeway. The final episode could have been a one-year-later reunion,
where some (but not all) of the crew decide to sign on with Janeway aboard a
new ship.
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Steven O.
explains why you're writing for free for Usenet, rather than writing
for money for UPN. ;-)
Steve O.
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:15:27 -0400, "Uniblab" <uni...@uniblab.net>
wrote:
Brian Thorn
wrote:
><< From: Steven O. nu...@null.com >>
>
>
><< I suspect the main reason they botched it was because they wanted to
>evade what really needed to be addressed: What was Starfleet going to
>do with the former Maqui crew members (not to mention Tom Paris) once
>they got back home. >>
>
>Except they DID address it. In the stupid alternate universe flashback
>opening.
It would have been nice to see some of the homecoming scenes, though.
I think Voyager fans were ripped off.
>What's the problem with Paris? He got a pardon to go with Janeway.
No, he didn't, he was just given early release on condition he
accompany Voyager in search of Tuvok's Maquis ship. There wasn't any
discussion of Tom getting back his commission and returning to
Starfleet. All that happened only after Voyager was stranded in the
Delta Quadrant and Janeway needed all the help she could get.
>And refusing to sleep with Q in exchange for him leaving Voyager in orbit
>around Earth. Every one of the crew that died from that moment on, she killed.
Um, no. The danger of lots of little Q's running around the universe
creating mayhem is much worse than the deaths of a few more Voyager
crew.
Brian
Brian Thorn
>Since we seem to have so much discussion of the botched Voyager
>finale, I thought I'd open a new thread.
>
>I suspect the main reason they botched it was because they wanted to
>evade what really needed to be addressed:
Well, I'm not sure how much of that was the Voyager production staff's
decision, and how much was Paramount's/UPN's demand for a standalone
"All Good Things..." like finale, versus the six week buildup to DS9's
conclusion.
Voyager, more than DS9, needed that buildup. UPN, of course, is run by
folks with the IQs of chimpanzees.
>What was Starfleet going to
>do with the former Maqui crew members (not to mention Tom Paris) once
>they got back home.
Well, amnesty for their service to the Federation would probaby have
been invoked.
>One viable option for a real finale would have
>been to just get them home, any old way (a convenient wormhole pops
>up), and then address the question:
That should have been built-up over several episodes. Voyager getting
a scent of some new technology that could get them home fast, finding
it (making some perilous deal to get their hands on it) and finally
installing it. Perhaps in the meantime, they've learned that the Borg
are on their way to invade the Federation, and Voyager alone has the
technology to stop them (say, an outgrowth of the "Unimatrix"
storyline). The ship goes to MegaWarp and "To Be Continued" ends that
episode, leading into the finale.
Sure would have been more honorable than "we cheated by bringing
technology from the future home with us..."
>What do you do with former
>traitors and criminals who none-the-less proved loyal once compelled
>to become Starfleet members?
>
>Other options:
>
>Have the crew get home, but Janeway has to somehow die to make it
>happen.
Nah, they'd just done that (more or less) with DS9. Besides, ONE
Janeway did die in "Endgame".
>Have the crew never get home -- they choose to sacrifice their chance
>for return, in order to (once again) save some alient species, at the
>cost of losing the ship and setting up shop permanently on some planet
>across the galaxies.
They never get home? The loyal audience would be sending hate mail to
Paramount/UPN to this day. We already had one great SF series end like
that, with Quantum Leap's "Sam Beckett Never Returned Home"
conclusion. Argh!
Brian
SoHillsGuy
I think you've just made a serious, unjustified slam against chimpanzees....
CA was in NJ
>They never get home? The loyal audience would be sending hate mail to
>Paramount/UPN to this day. We already had one great SF series end like
>that, with Quantum Leap's "Sam Beckett Never Returned Home"
>conclusion. Argh!
At least with QL there was discussion (even at the time) of a feature movie.
Did anyone think that Voyager would (or could) continue in that form in the
features?
Ken from Chicago
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20040705165916...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Or how about when SHE did Q a favor and refusing even to ASK for Q to send
them home?
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Steven O." <nu...@null.com> wrote in message
news:pv4je059ppfdsioj5...@4ax.com...
The problem with ST:VOY was that it was usually a half-step off. It would
come so tantalizingly close to being good, if not outright great. There were
some great episodes--but those were not only few and far between, they only
highlighted how bad it was most of the time. Moreover time and again they
would take the wrong choice. The half-step would be they are on the brink of
making a great dramatic and logical decision and instead make the "wrong"
choice:
--Maquis. Nice idea that people with a different philosophical point of view
would be onboard, but the execution made them look petty, and eventually
they backed down all the time.
--Seska. Voy's own "Dr. Smith". First she starts out merely with different
points of view than the captain, good, then turns traitor, better, then they
get rid of her, bad.
--Brad Dourif. He played a reformed serial killer, and like so many roles (a
monk accused of being a serial killer on BABYLON 5, "Wormtongue" in LORD OF
THE RINGS, and the doc on DEADWOOD), Dourif turns in a great performance.
Naturally he's killed off.
--The 1937s. Humans abducted from Earth (guess which year) by aliens are
found on an alien planet. These people have radically different world views
than not only Janeway, but the Federation and even the Maquis. Naturally,
not a single one of them choose to go with Voyager back to Earth. (Moreover
not a single member of the crew opt to stay behind on the planet--but I
guess if you're Starfleet material, ya gotta believe in the impossible being
possible.)
--Q. Repeatedly Q showed up and NO ONE even asks him to return the ship
home. Not Janeway, Chakotay, Kim, Paris, no one. Picard would have and did
swallow his pride and asked. Picard protected his SHIP and his CREW and the
FEDERATION by giving them important intel about the Borg. Janeway: "Oh no,
we can get back on our own two feet." And as mentioned earlier, even after Q
came to her for help--and she helped him--she doesn't even bother to ask him
to return the favor by "snapping" them home.
--Jane of all trades. Did Janeway know the meaning of the word delegate? She
has been in command, piloted the ship, working the transporter controls,
knows chronal physics, is an archaeologist, even assisted the doctor in
treating patients.
--Act your age. The biggest systematic problem of the show was revealed to
me in two episodes: where Neelix can't decide what to do about a secret
problem and he turns to Paris who tells him that he (Paris) found it best to
simply tell the truth. And another where Paris and half-klingon/half human
engineer are sneaking around almost in terror of being caught as a couple.
Discretion is one thing but fear? Those two episodes revealed the underlying
problem:
The crew are written TOO YOUNG, as if they were TEENAGERS.
With that revelation everything made sense. They got overly emotional about
stuff all the time. The notable exception was Tuvok (and later Seven), who
was written as unemotional, simply came off acting like a mature adult. Most
of the scenes I had problems with in the various episodes I would have
accepted as making sense if they were indeed teenagers.
--The finale. "It's not about the destination, but the journey." No, No, NO,
NO! After having given up Voy about the time Kes left, and resampling with
the addition of Seven of Nine--until it became the Janeway and Seven show
and I left. I finally tuned back in for the finale. For those fans that DID
stick with the show thru the good times and the bad times and the worse
times and the worst times (did I mention the bad times?) it was indeed all
about the destination. Those fans WANTED to see the Voyager pull into
drydock, the crew hailed as heroes, fallen comrades remembered and mourned,
hints at where the crew was heading afterward. Instead, once again, they got
Yet Another Time Travel story.
-- Ken from Chicago
Maureen Goldman
>And refusing to sleep with Q in exchange for him leaving Voyager in orbit
>around Earth. Every one of the crew that died from that moment on, she killed.
Didn't Q demand that Janeway have his child? I seem to recall that as
the ultimate objective, not just sex.
Ed Stasiak
> > Steven O. <nu...@null.com> wrote
> >
> > Have the crew get home, but Janeway has to somehow die to make
> > it happen.
>
> Nah, they'd just done that (more or less) with DS9. Besides, ONE
> Janeway did die in "Endgame".
Anything that got rid of Janeway permanently would have been a
good idea in my book and IMO, she should have been killed off
in Episode 1.
Being on the Voyager would have been like being trapped with
your 6th grade teacher for years on end, I would have defected
to the Kazon along with Seska just to get away from Janeway!
Too bad B&B didn't find Jeri Ryan prior to the start of the series
and cast her as the captain instead of Capt. "Mom" Janeway.
> >Have the crew never get home -- they choose to sacrifice their chance
> >for return, in order to (once again) save some alient species, at the
> >cost of losing the ship and setting up shop permanently on some planet
> >across the galaxies.
>
> They never get home? The loyal audience would be sending hate mail to
> Paramount/UPN to this day.
Not from this fan of Star Trek at least. IMO stranding the Voyage
crew on some planet would have been a better idea, at least it wouldn't
have ended with the expected sappy/happy ending everybody knew was going
to happen.
They could have done the finale with multiple scenes jumping back
and forth between the ancestors of the Voyager crew (and Tuvok) in
the present time and the Voyager cast in the past. (Something like
the recent Enterprise episode with the descendants of Capt. Archer
& Co.)
Say that after a generation of two, contact with Earth finally happens
as the technology becomes more advanced (with some actress cast as the
bumpy headed little girl, now a grandma, doing a voice over) and now
the planet Voyager offers to be an outpost of the Federation in the
Delta Quadrant.
altec3220
> The problem with ST:VOY was that it was usually a half-step off. It would
> come so tantalizingly close to being good, if not outright great. There were
> some great episodes--but those were not only few and far between, they only
> highlighted how bad it was most of the time. Moreover time and again they
> would take the wrong choice. The half-step would be they are on the brink of
> making a great dramatic and logical decision and instead make the "wrong"
> choice:
I'm not sure it would be possible for me to agree with your assessment
more than I do. I was as excited about VOY as the next guy when it
premiered. I actually recorded a few episodes onto cassette tapes so
I could listen to them after they aired. The premise was great and if
they had stuck with it instead of turning the series into some sort of
TNG-lite I think a lot more people would have enjoyed VOY.
In my opinion, the number of people who were disappointed in VGR far
outweigh the number of people who simply hate it.
altec
Brian Thorn
>Anything that got rid of Janeway permanently would have been a
>good idea in my book and IMO, she should have been killed off
>in Episode 1.
I think the writing of her character improved considerably over the
years. At first, it is clear the writers had no idea who the character
was supposed to be. Sometime after her monumentally stupid decisions
in "Basics" the character began to improve.
>Too bad B&B didn't find Jeri Ryan prior to the start of the series
>and cast her as the captain instead of Capt. "Mom" Janeway.
Paramount overruled Berman / Braga / Taylor's original choice to play
Janeway: Susan Gibney. Gibney is best known for playing Enterprise
architect Dr. Leah Brahms in a couple of episodes of TNG. Paramount
wanted a better known actress, so they went (disastrously) with
Genevive Bujold. When that catastrophe abated, they went with
available-in-a-pinch Kate Mulgrew.
I do not hold Mulgrew responsible for the bad writing (especially in
Season 1 and 2) of her character, though. So I'm not sure how much a
different actress would have changed things, and getting Ryan sooner
would liekly not have helped Voyager.
It's the writing, not the acting. Beltran and Wang are no great shakes
as actors, but all the Treks have suffered at least a few mediocre
actors in the principal casts and survived.
>Say that after a generation of two, contact with Earth finally happens
>as the technology becomes more advanced
They already had semi-regular contact with Earth late in Voyager's
run.
Brian
Brian Thorn
<kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>Or how about when SHE did Q a favor and refusing even to ASK for Q to send
>them home?
Q did give them a little help, though.
Brian
Ken from Chicago
"Uniblab" <uni...@uniblab.net> wrote in message
news:40e9e11f$1...@corp.newsgroups.com...
Yet another example of when . . . Fans Know Best.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"SoHillsGuy" <sohil...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040705234259...@mb-m19.aol.com...
"Think"?
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"CA was in NJ"
<cainnj....@cainnj.REVERSE_TO_REPLY__SPAMMERS_SHOT_ON_SIGHT> wrote in
message news:10ekufc...@news20.forteinc.com...
If Janeway sacrificed herself--to the Borg--to save the ship, then after
being retrofitted the crew could have gone after her. STAR TREK: THE SEARCH
FOR JANEWAY. And just as they are returning, the Borg "adapt" their warp
network to deny unauthorized intruders--like them--access, throwing into a
different universe altogether.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Brian Thorn" <btho...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:q49me0l3jgsleoj12...@4ax.com...
Beltran was great in EL DIABLO, one of the early HBO's early original tv
movies.
-- Ken from Chicago
hipechik
>
> It's the writing, not the acting. Beltran and Wang are no great shakes
> as actors...
I disagree completely. Beltran and Wang are capable; they just didn't
have anything to do because of their one-dimensional characters.
BTW, Wang's talents were incredible underused. He is an incredible
impressionist.
hipechik
>
[SNIP]>
> NO! After having given up Voy about the time Kes left, and resampling with
> the addition of Seven of Nine--until it became the Janeway and Seven show
> and I left. I finally tuned back in for the finale. For those fans that DID
> stick with the show thru the good times and the bad times and the worse
> times and the worst times (did I mention the bad times?) it was indeed all
> about the destination. Those fans WANTED to see the Voyager pull into
> drydock, the crew hailed as heroes, fallen comrades remembered and mourned,
> hints at where the crew was heading afterward. Instead, once again, they got
> Yet Another Time Travel story.
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
AMEN!! You *got* it.
The series started off with the characters... ON EARTH. It was
illogical for the writers to not end the series with the characters...
ON EARTH... and to think this would please the audience, who waited
for seven years to see the Voyager crew back home on... well... ON
EARTH!
That finale was so bad that I have actually refused to accept it as
the finale. In fact, I believe that Voyager is still out in space
trying to get home but waiting for a decent script to send them home
properly.
Brian Thorn
<kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>Beltran was great in EL DIABLO, one of the early HBO's early original tv
>movies.
Not so great in "Night of the Comet".
Brian
Brian Thorn
<kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>--Seska. Voy's own "Dr. Smith". First she starts out merely with different
>points of view than the captain, good, then turns traitor, better, then they
>get rid of her, bad.
Especially since she succeeded only because Janeway and Chakotay
forgot to bring their brains to work those days.
>--The 1937s. Humans abducted from Earth (guess which year)
The episode was titled simply "The '37s", so it could have been 1837,
1937, 2037, what have you. Or it could have been "The 4400"... :-)
>--Q. Repeatedly Q showed up and NO ONE even asks him to return the ship
>home. Not Janeway, Chakotay, Kim, Paris, no one. Picard would have and did
>swallow his pride and asked. Picard protected his SHIP and his CREW and the
>FEDERATION by giving them important intel about the Borg.
Big, hugely important difference: the Enterprise was only in Borg
space because Q sent it there. Picard was really only asking Q to undo
what he'd done (basically... "I get it. We're not ready to be out
here. Now send us home please." That's a far cry from Voyager being
marooned in the Delta Quadrant because Janeway had never heard the
phrase "time delayed fuse".
>Janeway: "Oh no,
>we can get back on our own two feet." And as mentioned earlier, even after Q
>came to her for help--and she helped him--she doesn't even bother to ask him
>to return the favor by "snapping" them home.
In "The Q and the Gray" she doesn't ask. In "Q2" she does.
>--Jane of all trades. Did Janeway know the meaning of the word delegate?
Sure. She left security to the incompetent Tuvok. Okay, maybe not such
a good example. She did more or less leave Sickbay to the Holodoc and
Engineering to B'ellana. Chakotay was just a tree in a corner of the
Bridge, and Tom and Harry probably shouldn't have been trusted with
anything more than running the Holodeck.
>She
>has been in command, piloted the ship, working the transporter controls,
>knows chronal physics, is an archaeologist, even assisted the doctor in
>treating patients.
Missed that last one.
>--Act your age. The biggest systematic problem of the show was revealed to
>me in two episodes: where Neelix can't decide what to do about a secret
>problem and he turns to Paris who tells him that he (Paris) found it best to
>simply tell the truth.
That was a damned good episode though. Neelix thought that since
Voyager was now in a region of space he'd never seen, that he was
useless as a guide to the crew.
>And another where Paris and half-klingon/half human
>engineer are sneaking around almost in terror of being caught as a couple.
Don't remember that one, either. The Paris/B'ellana relationship was
very hit and miss. Sometimes it worked well, sometimes, well... not.
>--The finale. "It's not about the destination, but the journey." No, No, NO,
>NO! After having given up Voy about the time Kes left, and resampling with
>the addition of Seven of Nine--until it became the Janeway and Seven show
>and I left. I finally tuned back in for the finale. For those fans that DID
>stick with the show thru the good times and the bad times and the worse
>times and the worst times (did I mention the bad times?) it was indeed all
>about the destination. Those fans WANTED to see the Voyager pull into
>drydock, the crew hailed as heroes, fallen comrades remembered and mourned,
>hints at where the crew was heading afterward. Instead, once again, they got
>Yet Another Time Travel story.
Amen!
Brian
ANIM8Rfsk
<< That finale was so bad that I have actually refused to accept it as
the finale. In fact, I believe that Voyager is still out in space
trying to get home but waiting for a decent script to send them home
properly. >>
Oh, well, you got your wish. Voyager diverged into alternate timelines at
least a half a dozen times. The 'Kes becomes unstuck in time' episode ended
with a different Kes on a different Voyager than it started with. "Fat Evil
Kes Returns" came back to a different timeline than the one she'd left, and
hell, they seemed to switch timelines in the middle of that episode. There's
no telling what happened to the original Voyager, or where they are now. The
finale showed that Voyager time physics allow for multiple coexisting
timelines, and there's no reason to assume that EITHER of the Voyagers we saw
in the finale was one we'd ever seen before.
Uniblab
to see cheering, laughing, crying, champagne corks popping, etc. Instead,
everyone just sat there, completely unemotional, and the credits rolled. How
could NONE of the creative team say, "Hey, this is really emotionally
unsatisfying. Let's change it."?
Maureen Goldman
>--Brad Dourif. He played a reformed serial killer, and like so many roles (a
>monk accused of being a serial killer on BABYLON 5, "Wormtongue" in LORD OF
>THE RINGS, and the doc on DEADWOOD), Dourif turns in a great performance.
>Naturally he's killed off.
The Dourif character was a psychopath who saved the day. It would have
been interesting if he'd been allowed to continue, but I don't think
that genuine reformation was possible. Frankly, I don't see how they
could have kept him - it's difficult to imagine plots where a
dangerous nutso was just another character.
No disagreement with your lengthy assessment about the show's
overwhelming problems and poor decisions.
Maureen Goldman
>The series started off with the characters... ON EARTH. It was
>illogical for the writers to not end the series with the characters...
>ON EARTH... and to think this would please the audience, who waited
>for seven years to see the Voyager crew back home on... well... ON
>EARTH!
>
>That finale was so bad that I have actually refused to accept it as
>the finale. In fact, I believe that Voyager is still out in space
>trying to get home but waiting for a decent script to send them home
>properly.
I'm trying to remember how Voyager began, that is, the opening scenes.
I know that the station at DS9 was heavily featured, also that Janeway
goes to the correctional facility on earth to see Paris (which must
have come first since Tom protects Harry from being swindled by
Quark).
.
Brent McKee
I always thought that the Canadian actor Tom Jackson would have been a
perfect for the Chakotay character. He played Lankata on the Next
Generation episode "Journey's End" -- the one that finally got rid of
Wesley Crusher.
--
Brent McKee
To reply by email, please remove the capital letters (S and N) from
the email address
"If we cease to judge this world, we may find ourselves, very quickly,
in one which is infinitely worse."
- Margaret Atwood
"Nothing is more dangerous than a dogmatic worldview - nothing more
constraining, more blinding to innovation, more destructive of
openness to novelty. "
- Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002)
Ken from Chicago
I get that confused with "Fire In The Sky". One of them was 70s tearjerker
soapish movie about a comet striking a small town in the Southwest or
mountain states like Colorado, the tough newswoman in charge of the local
news station in a troubled marriage (because it was a disaster movie,
someone had to have a troubled marriage or relationship with their kids)
versus a movie about valley girls and the mutant freaks who survive an
apocalyptic comet strike.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
> On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:52:20 -0500, "Ken from Chicago"
> <kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >--Seska. Voy's own "Dr. Smith". First she starts out merely with
different
> >points of view than the captain, good, then turns traitor, better, then
they
> >get rid of her, bad.
>
> Especially since she succeeded only because Janeway and Chakotay
> forgot to bring their brains to work those days.
>
> >--The 1937s. Humans abducted from Earth (guess which year)
>
> The episode was titled simply "The '37s", so it could have been 1837,
> 1937, 2037, what have you. Or it could have been "The 4400"... :-)
90210 was ... taken.
> >--Q. Repeatedly Q showed up and NO ONE even asks him to return the ship
> >home. Not Janeway, Chakotay, Kim, Paris, no one. Picard would have and
did
> >swallow his pride and asked. Picard protected his SHIP and his CREW and
the
> >FEDERATION by giving them important intel about the Borg.
>
> Big, hugely important difference: the Enterprise was only in Borg
> space because Q sent it there. Picard was really only asking Q to undo
> what he'd done (basically... "I get it. We're not ready to be out
> here. Now send us home please." That's a far cry from Voyager being
> marooned in the Delta Quadrant because Janeway had never heard the
> phrase "time delayed fuse".
Like Picard would have given a crap about HOW they got there. If there was a
viable choice for getting home, for getting his crew and ship home he would
have jumped at it--especially if all it required was swallowing some pride.
> >Janeway: "Oh no,
> >we can get back on our own two feet." And as mentioned earlier, even
after Q
> >came to her for help--and she helped him--she doesn't even bother to ask
him
> >to return the favor by "snapping" them home.
>
> In "The Q and the Gray" she doesn't ask. In "Q2" she does.
>
> >--Jane of all trades. Did Janeway know the meaning of the word delegate?
>
> Sure. She left security to the incompetent Tuvok. Okay, maybe not such
> a good example. She did more or less leave Sickbay to the Holodoc and
> Engineering to B'ellana. Chakotay was just a tree in a corner of the
> Bridge, and Tom and Harry probably shouldn't have been trusted with
> anything more than running the Holodeck.
>
> >She
> >has been in command, piloted the ship, working the transporter controls,
> >knows chronal physics, is an archaeologist, even assisted the doctor in
> >treating patients.
>
> Missed that last one.
By the time she did that I was thinking, come on. You have got to be kidding
me, YET ANOTHER job? She's taking Chaka Khan's "I'm Every Woman" song a
little too seriously.
> >--Act your age. The biggest systematic problem of the show was revealed
to
> >me in two episodes: where Neelix can't decide what to do about a secret
> >problem and he turns to Paris who tells him that he (Paris) found it best
to
> >simply tell the truth.
>
> That was a damned good episode though. Neelix thought that since
> Voyager was now in a region of space he'd never seen, that he was
> useless as a guide to the crew.
Yeah, but "tell the truth"? That's the advice you give to children. At least
the way Paris did it, and the way Neelix reacted, as if it had never
occurred to him before.
> >And another where Paris and half-klingon/half human
> >engineer are sneaking around almost in terror of being caught as a
couple.
>
> Don't remember that one, either. The Paris/B'ellana relationship was
> very hit and miss. Sometimes it worked well, sometimes, well... not.
>
> >--The finale. "It's not about the destination, but the journey." No, No,
NO,
> >NO! After having given up Voy about the time Kes left, and resampling
with
> >the addition of Seven of Nine--until it became the Janeway and Seven show
> >and I left. I finally tuned back in for the finale. For those fans that
DID
> >stick with the show thru the good times and the bad times and the worse
> >times and the worst times (did I mention the bad times?) it was indeed
all
> >about the destination. Those fans WANTED to see the Voyager pull into
> >drydock, the crew hailed as heroes, fallen comrades remembered and
mourned,
> >hints at where the crew was heading afterward. Instead, once again, they
got
> >Yet Another Time Travel story.
>
> Amen!
>
> Brian
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Maureen Goldman" <inksl...@FOGsunshine.net> wrote in message
news:5jope09fh3bgoqbmo...@4ax.com...
> >"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >--Brad Dourif. He played a reformed serial killer, and like so many roles
(a
> >monk accused of being a serial killer on BABYLON 5, "Wormtongue" in LORD
OF
> >THE RINGS, and the doc on DEADWOOD), Dourif turns in a great performance.
> >Naturally he's killed off.
>
> The Dourif character was a psychopath who saved the day. It would have
> been interesting if he'd been allowed to continue, but I don't think
> that genuine reformation was possible. Frankly, I don't see how they
> could have kept him - it's difficult to imagine plots where a
> dangerous nutso was just another character.
But that would have been the drama. On a relatively small ship (at least
compared to the Enterprise and even Deep Space Nine), how do you deal with
crew gone bad? with prisoners?
With a psychopath, is real reform possible? How would he interact with the
crew on an ongoing basis? How do you compare the person he was to the one he
is to the one he will be? It's not something that can be solved by a level 3
diagnosis, realigning the isolinear chips, randomizing the frequency,
performing a mindmeld or some kind of nigh-miraculous engineering repair in
far less time than originally estimated.
Again, they set up something potentially great dramatically . . . and make
the wrong choice.
> No disagreement with your lengthy assessment about the show's
> overwhelming problems and poor decisions.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Maureen Goldman" <inksl...@FOGsunshine.net> wrote in message
And of course Paris is a near clone of the character the actor played in
TNG's "First Duty", that got Wes into trouble.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
Yes, even that, a pan or montage of the crying or cheering crewmembers
watching their monitors or looking out windows at Earth, that would have
been much better than what they aired.
-- Ken from Chicago
hipechik
LOL-- sorry, but that *Fat, Evil Kes Returns* line totally had me on
the floor.
Good point, BTW, about the *multiple Voyagers* bit. It's something I'd
never considered. The closest thing I'd come to realizing this problem
was the HKS (Harry Kim Situation). The Harry Kim at the end of the
series is not the *real* one from the beginning, as the *real* one was
sucked out of an airlock and replaced by a second Harry from a second
duplicate Voyager (I forget the episode name in which this happened.)
It never occurred to me that aside from the fake Harry, the entire
crew from the end of the series may have also been a crew different
from the one the show had started with.
Hmmm...
hipechik
I don't remember too much of the opening scenes as well, but I
remember that there were scenes set squarely on terra firma before
Yoyager launched on its mission.
Brian Thorn
<kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>I get that confused with "Fire In The Sky". One of them was 70s tearjerker
>soapish movie about a comet striking a small town in the Southwest or
>mountain states like Colorado, the tough newswoman in charge of the local
>news station in a troubled marriage (because it was a disaster movie,
>someone had to have a troubled marriage or relationship with their kids)
>versus a movie about valley girls and the mutant freaks who survive an
>apocalyptic comet strike.
"Night of the Comet" was the valley girl mutant freaks movie with
Chakotay and, I think, Catherine Mary Stewart, circa 1988.
"Fire in the Sky" was the UFO abduction movie starring D.B. Sweeney.
Based on a supposedly true story. Pretty good movie, surprisingly well
acted. But if you'd buy that story as true, I have a nice bridge in
New York for sale.
Brian
ANIM8Rfsk
<< And of course Paris is a near clone of the character the actor played in
TNG's "First Duty", that got Wes into trouble. >>
Yep. They just changed the name so they wouldn't have to pay the writer of
"First Duty" creator royalties.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 05:30:17 -0500, "Ken from Chicago"
<kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>I get that confused with "Fire In The Sky". One of them was 70s tearjerker
>soapish movie about a comet striking a small town in the Southwest or
>mountain states like Colorado >>
<< "Fire in the Sky" was the UFO abduction movie starring D.B. Sweeney. >>
Ken was talking about the 1978 "Fire in the Sky" with Richard Crenna, where a
comet or asteroid wiped out Phoenix.
Ken from Chicago
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20040709031158...@mb-m14.aol.com...
PHOENIX, AZ, that was the city. The lead, I'm tempted to say Leslie Ann
Warren, only she was older and had a smokier, huskier voice.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
You have got to be kidding! Right?
-- Ken from Chicago
Maureen Goldman
><< And of course Paris is a near clone of the character the actor played in
>TNG's "First Duty", that got Wes into trouble. >>
> >anim...@aol.comNOSPAM (ANIM8Rfsk) wrote:
>Yep. They just changed the name so they wouldn't have to pay the writer of
>"First Duty" creator royalties.
For Paris I thought they wanted someone like the TNG character in
terms of being a risk-taker and fun-loving, but the original was also
a charismatic bully. Too mean.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< > TNG's "First Duty", that got Wes into trouble. >>
>
> Yep. They just changed the name so they wouldn't have to pay the writer
of
> "First Duty" creator royalties.
You have got to be kidding! Right? >>
Nope. Same character, same actor, different name. If they'd used the original
character, they'd have had to pay the writer of First Duty a fee every episode.
By changing it 'ever so slightly' they got to pay that fee to themselves
instead.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< > Ken was talking about the 1978 "Fire in the Sky" with Richard Crenna,
where a
> comet or asteroid wiped out Phoenix.
PHOENIX, AZ, that was the city. The lead, I'm tempted to say Leslie Ann
Warren, only she was older and had a smokier, huskier voice. >>
Elizabeth Ashley
Ken from Chicago
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
I thought the cast and crew of BABYLON 5 got ripped off when WB "sold" B5
reruns to TNT for a "discount".
-- Ken from Chicago
Steven O.
wrote:
>I always thought that the Canadian actor Tom Jackson would have been a
>perfect for the Chakotay character. He played Lankata on the Next
>Generation episode "Journey's End" -- the one that finally got rid of
>Wesley Crusher.
I always thought that an actor -- any actor -- would have been good
for the Chakotay character.
Steve O.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< LOL-- sorry, but that *Fat, Evil Kes Returns* line totally had me on
the floor. >>
:-)
<< The Harry Kim at the end of the
series is not the *real* one from the beginning, as the *real* one was
sucked out of an airlock and replaced by a second Harry from a second
duplicate Voyager >>
Okay, this is bizarre. I haven't watched Voyager in years. And I didn't
remember what you were talking about. In the middle of the night last weekend
Voyager came on and I suffered through it. And, it was the duplicate Harry Kim
(and Naomi Wildman) ep.
Spooky.
<< It never occurred to me that aside from the fake Harry, the entire
crew from the end of the series may have also been a crew different
from the one the show had started with. >>
Oh, they definitely are. Several times over.