Modern Family--Haley and college

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

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ok, this is a silly comedy, but still, neither Haley nor her parents
seemed upset that Haley got kicked out of college for what was clearly
an unintentional accident and a biased hearing panel. Nor were the
parents the least bit upset that Haley didn't take college very
seriously.

As to the Alex scene in the ER . . . one day in college a visiting
friend sat in in one of my classes. The prof posed a question that no
one in the class could answer. Finally my visiting friend raised his
hand and correctly answered the question. The prof exclaimed, "well,
at least one person did the reading!". (FWIW, the course was
marketing).

[Obveeus]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> ok, this is a silly comedy, but still, neither Haley nor her parents
> seemed upset that Haley got kicked out of college for what was clearly
> an unintentional accident and a biased hearing panel.

You didn't notice the parents being upset?
You think that being caught underage drinking, resisting arrest, failing to
attend classes, and having improper relationships with TAs is not grounds
for dismissal from college? She is lucky that they allowed her to simply
withdraw from school rather than recording her with a bunch of failing
grades (which is where she would be if she had lasted just a bit longer at
the school). At least this way, she can apply again next year and start
over fresh.

[Mason Barge]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 10:51:10 -0500, "Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote:

>
><hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> ok, this is a silly comedy, but still, neither Haley nor her parents
>> seemed upset that Haley got kicked out of college for what was clearly
>> an unintentional accident and a biased hearing panel.
>
>You didn't notice the parents being upset?
>You think that being caught underage drinking, resisting arrest, failing to
>attend classes, and having improper relationships with TAs is not grounds
>for dismissal from college?

Not most places. If the resisting arrest charge is a felony, though,
probably.

Very conservative schools (like Bob Jones) and she'd be out. Well, even
if the drinking were not underage, LOL.

[Lord Vader III]

I don't remember what college Haley got into but, unless it was a Ivy
League type of college, I seriously doubt she would have been brought
before a school board for underage drinking. The whole assault on a
police officer was a stretch as well. I guess they needed her to be at
home for more storylines so this was the easiest way to get her back.

LVIII

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 8, 12:44 pm, Lord Vader III <lord.vader....@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't remember what college Haley got into but, unless it was a Ivy
> League type of college, I seriously doubt she would have been brought
> before a school board for underage drinking.

Yes, given her high school record she was likely enrolled in a low
level school.

> The whole assault on a
> police officer was a stretch as well.  I guess they needed her to be at
> home for more storylines so this was the easiest way to get her back.

Sounds about right. Also, the actress had major surgery between
seasons. Perhaps the college plot line was a way to limit her work
time until she was fully recovered.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 8, 10:51 am, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> <hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> > ok, this is a silly comedy, but still, neither Haley nor her parents
> > seemed upset that Haley got kicked out of college for what was clearly
> > an unintentional accident and a biased hearing panel.
>
> You didn't notice the parents being upset?

They were upset at her drinking.

> You think that being caught underage drinking, resisting arrest, failing to
> attend classes, and having improper relationships with TAs is not grounds
> for dismissal from college?

Let's take a look at this:

Colleges do not kick out kids for underage drinking. If they did,
they'd be empty.

Haley quite obviously did not "resist arrest" nor assault a cop, per
the police video.

Haley missed some (not all) morning classes. Not a good thing to do,
but certainly not grounds for explusion. College is not high school.
In college, class attendance is very often optional.

Improper relationship with a T/A would be more the T/A's problem.
Further, it sounded like she merely went out on a date or two, not had
an actual relationship.

> She is lucky that they allowed her to simply
> withdraw from school rather than recording her with a bunch of failing
> grades (which is where she would be if she had lasted just a bit longer at
> the school).  At least this way, she can apply again next year and start
> over fresh.

The semester is not over and as of yet she has no grades at all.
Nothing was said that she was failing all her courses, or about her
academic progress overall. Further, freshman doing poorly are often
placed on academic probation and given a chance to improve themselves.

As mentioned, as an attorney Cameron should've immediately challenged
the participation of a student on the panel who obviously had a grudge
against Haley. Further, he should've coached her not to admit to
anything as she did--don't give them any rope to hang her. This isn't
criminal law, but basic common sense.

As mentioned, as they were leaving the dorm with her things, her
parents didn't seem to mind at all that she was kicked out and
couldn't even finish a single semester.

Yes, it's a silly comedy, but when they take things too far it gets
boring.

[Obveeus]

"Mason Barge" <mason...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 10:51:10 -0500, "Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>><hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ok, this is a silly comedy, but still, neither Haley nor her parents
>>> seemed upset that Haley got kicked out of college for what was clearly
>>> an unintentional accident and a biased hearing panel.
>>
>>You didn't notice the parents being upset?
>>You think that being caught underage drinking, resisting arrest, failing
>>to
>>attend classes, and having improper relationships with TAs is not grounds
>>for dismissal from college?
>
> Not most places. If the resisting arrest charge is a felony, though,
> probably.

It wasn't just resisting arrest, it was also assaulting a police officer,
though the charge would never have held up in court since what she did was
fell from a fire escape and landed on the police officer, injuring him
accidentally.

That doesn't chang ethe fact that 6 weeks into school, she was involved in
multiple problems and wasn't going to be passing her classes. Allowing her
to withdraw and reapply next year was a gift, not a punishment.

[Obveeus]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>As mentioned, as an attorney Cameron should've immediately challenged
>the participation of a student on the panel who obviously had a grudge
>against Haley.

As mentioned, this wasn't a court of law and no attourney was even allowed
in this forum.

> Further, he should've coached her not to admit to
>anything as she did--don't give them any rope to hang her. This isn't
>criminal law, but basic common sense.

Yes, she demonstrated her lack of basic common sense quite well.

>As mentioned, as they were leaving the dorm with her things, her
>parents didn't seem to mind at all that she was kicked out and
>couldn't even finish a single semester.

I'm not sure how you come to that illogical conclusion as it was not
supported by the show. Yes, they were not surprised by the result of
Hayley's college experience, but that does not mean that they were not
annoyed with the result.

[BTR1701]

In article <k7gun6$o51$1...@dont-email.me>, "Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com>
wrote:

> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> >As mentioned, as an attorney Cameron should've immediately challenged
> >the participation of a student on the panel who obviously had a grudge
> >against Haley.
>
> As mentioned, this wasn't a court of law and no attourney was even
> allowed in this forum.

But if the forum allows openly biased individuals, and then takes
serious enough action-- like kicking someone out of school-- they're
just inviting the defendant to remove the process to a forum chock full
of lawyers and judges.

[Mason Barge]

Dude! You think Ivy League colleges are *more* likely to kick someone out
for underage drinking? I'd think, if anything, they are more tolerant.

[Obveeus]

Yep. Also, I don't remember what college Haley got into, but I do remember
being surprised that it was even high enough up the food chain of quality to
have campus housing. Her past academic achievements would have suggested
local Community College at best.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 11:48 am, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> > Dude!  You think Ivy League colleges are *more* likely to kick someone out
> > for underage drinking?  I'd think, if anything, they are more tolerant.
>
> Yep.  Also, I don't remember what college Haley got into, but I do remember
> being surprised that it was even high enough up the food chain of quality to
> have campus housing.  Her past academic achievements would have suggested
> local Community College at best.

She was wait-listed at first, and supposedly improved a lot during her
senior year. But yes, it is very likely a low level college. Did
they ever say what Haley's SAT scores were?


How much weight do colleges give to high school applicants who were
weak early on but then improved themselves? For instance, say someone
failed several courses and had to repeat a freshman or sophomore year,
but then did better in their junior and senior year.

[Obveeus]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
On Nov 9, 11:48 am, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

>> > Dude! You think Ivy League colleges are *more* likely to kick someone
>> > out
>> > for underage drinking? I'd think, if anything, they are more tolerant.
>>
>> Yep. Also, I don't remember what college Haley got into, but I do
>> remember
>> being surprised that it was even high enough up the food chain of quality
>> to
>> have campus housing. Her past academic achievements would have suggested
>> local Community College at best.
>
>She was wait-listed at first, and supposedly improved a lot during her
>senior year. But yes, it is very likely a low level college. Did
>they ever say what Haley's SAT scores were?

I don't recall if they gave an exact score, but she did better than was
expected, which is why college became a legitimate option in the first
place. The other half of the equation was that she started feeling bad
about how all her friends had a plan/future (because they were talking about
going to college) and Haley felt left out of that discussion for awhile.

>How much weight do colleges give to high school applicants who were
>weak early on but then improved themselves? For instance, say someone
>failed several courses and had to repeat a freshman or sophomore year,
>but then did better in their junior and senior year.

I doubt many colleges care at all about individual grades. The end GPA (vs.
scale) and the class rank are about all that would matter. Well, that and
having completed the basic requirements (a set number of semesters of
English, Math, Science, Humanities, and Foreign Language).

[Dano]

wrote in message
news:ab474e41-7764-48d8...@c20g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...

====================================

Never mind all of that. Why on earth is this girl going to college at all?
Other than to party. She never showed ANY inclination towards learning or
even general thoughtfulness. This was the LAST place she should have gone.
IF we're going to be the least bit serious that is.

[Rhino]

"Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:k7gtsu$i8g$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> "Mason Barge" <mason...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 10:51:10 -0500, "Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>><hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ok, this is a silly comedy, but still, neither Haley nor her parents
>>>> seemed upset that Haley got kicked out of college for what was clearly
>>>> an unintentional accident and a biased hearing panel.
>>>
>>>You didn't notice the parents being upset?
>>>You think that being caught underage drinking, resisting arrest, failing
>>>to
>>>attend classes, and having improper relationships with TAs is not grounds
>>>for dismissal from college?
>>
>> Not most places. If the resisting arrest charge is a felony, though,
>> probably.
>
> It wasn't just resisting arrest, it was also assaulting a police officer,
> though the charge would never have held up in court since what she did was
> fell from a fire escape and landed on the police officer, injuring him
> accidentally.
>

I'm not sure if you picked up on it but the way she explained it was that
she heard the words "Hands Up!" while climbing down the fire escape and
obeyed. Naturally, that would make ANYONE fall. Of course Haley isn't the
sharpest knife in the drawer so it didn't even occur to her to wonder if the
words were directed at her: we don't know if the officer could actually see
her up there or if he was yelling at one of the many other drunken students.
And even if he had been talking to Haley, pretty much anyone with a shred of
common sense wouldn't have held it against her if she finished climbing down
BEFORE putting her hands up. Otherwise, he's basically insisting that she
injure herself since most people who let go of a fire escape in mid-climb
will hurt themselves in the fall....

> That doesn't chang ethe fact that 6 weeks into school, she was involved in
> multiple problems and wasn't going to be passing her classes. Allowing
> her to withdraw and reapply next year was a gift, not a punishment.
>
>

I'm not really surprised that she washed out of college. The character
really is an airhead. I'm not sure if the actress herself is similarly
"intellectually impaired" but I'm guessing she's not and just plays her as
an airhead. Apparently, the kid who plays her brother is actually a MENSA
member, although his character is an airhead too.

I'll bet the Haley character was deliberately kicked out of college to
ensure that she is back home for a while and in more of the episodes rather
than not appearing at all or appearing only very briefly. The fact that the
writers engineered this in a way that was true to her character is to their
credit.

I think all the kids on the show (including Haley, although she's not really
a kid) do a great job, on a par with the adults. The casting people really
outdid themselves on Modern Family.

I watch a lot more dramas than sitcoms but Modern Family is my favourite
current sitcom.

--
Rhino

[Obveeus]

"Rhino" <no_offline_c...@example.com> wrote:
>
> "Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote in message

>> That doesn't chang ethe fact that 6 weeks into school, she was involved
>> in multiple problems and wasn't going to be passing her classes.
>> Allowing her to withdraw and reapply next year was a gift, not a
>> punishment.
>>
> I'm not really surprised that she washed out of college. The character
> really is an airhead. I'm not sure if the actress herself is similarly
> "intellectually impaired" but I'm guessing she's not and just plays her as
> an airhead. Apparently, the kid who plays her brother is actually a MENSA
> member, although his character is an airhead too.
>
> I'll bet the Haley character was deliberately kicked out of college to
> ensure that she is back home for a while and in more of the episodes
> rather than not appearing at all or appearing only very briefly. The fact
> that the writers engineered this in a way that was true to her character
> is to their credit.

The episode made for a good 'after school special' style lesson as well.
Sure, Haley was faced with the prospect of 'go to college' or 'go get a job
at the mall', but choosing college isn't supposed to be just for the purpose
of avoiding the other option. Kids need to know that going off to college
isn't just a way to start their life with a 4-year (or more) long party.
They need to take it seriously. The high school kids I grew up with that
had the most trouble with college where the ones who's parents had done
everything for them for 18 years. They didn't know how to do their laundry
or get up and go to class all on their own initiative...and the results were
predictable, just as with Haley on MODERN FAMILY.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 1:20 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> . . .The other half of the equation was that she started feeling bad

> about how all her friends had a plan/future (because they were talking about
> going to college) and Haley felt left out of that discussion for awhile.

Also, it was stated that Haley was upset that Alex showed up in her
classes, partly because she was left behind so much (and partly
because Alex was advanced.)

> I doubt many colleges care at all about individual grades.  The end GPA (vs.

> scale) and the class rank are about all that would matter.   . ..

How do colleges handle the fact that high schools can be vastly
different in their grading? A "C" in a good school could easily be an
"A" in a regular school. Likewise with class rank--a kid in a good
school could be in the middle but in the top at a plain school.

Some employers are prejudiced in that way--they often simply require
someone be in the top fifth of their class to be considered. Someone
in an average college could easily be in the top fifth, but only the
in the middle if at a good college.

Indeed, is it better to graduate with a "C" average from an Ivy League
average or an "A" average from an average college (like a plain state
college)?

[Barry Margolin]

In article <k7jhhn$dbn$1...@dont-email.me>, "Dano" <janea...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Never mind all of that. Why on earth is this girl going to college at all?
> Other than to party. She never showed ANY inclination towards learning or
> even general thoughtfulness. This was the LAST place she should have gone.
> IF we're going to be the least bit serious that is.

Because she's a middle-class white girl, and that's what is expected of
her. Her parents didn't want her to turn into a band groupie or trophy
wife, which seemed to be what her inclinations were. They're pushing her
to better herself -- oh, the horror!

--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 1:20 pm, "Dano" <janeandd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Never mind all of that.  Why on earth is this girl going to college at all?
> Other than to party.  She never showed ANY inclination towards learning or
> even general thoughtfulness.  This was the LAST place she should have gone.
> IF we're going to be the least bit serious that is.

The show had Haley taking school more seriously. As someone
mentioned, she was seeing her friends move on and Alex in her classes.

I don't think the show mentioned where Haley gets money for clothes,
gas, or recreation. Her parents don't seem wealthy, but Haley is
spoiled rotten.

Haley is no rocket scientist, but could benefit from some low-end
college courses. She probably would be better off at a community
college. Of course, her parents should cut her off and force her to
pay her own expenses so she learns some reality*. (The show ignored
that fact that many community colleges have open enrollments--graduate
high school and you're in.)

Given the gross incompetence of her entire family, it's amazing Alex
does so well.

Unfortunately, in the real world there are a lot of Haley's out
there. These days employers do not want young women for their offices
as they are very immature and act as if still in high school--calling
out sick if they have a fight with their boyfriend or to go to the
beach with their friends; wearing beach clothes to the office.

Years ago employers liked having a pretty young woman as a
receptionist or secretarial staff, but no more. Edith Bunker once
looked for work when Archie was on strike but found no takers; today
she would be grabbed because of her maturity. Gloria Stivic was no
rocket scientist, but far more competent than Haley.


* I think the show touched on that when Haley announced she was moving
in with her boyfriend. Her mother is afraid Haley will get pregant
and in really bad straits, so spoiling her seems like the lesser of
two evils.

[Barry Margolin]

In article
<77ee1bf1-6c91-420d...@l7g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Nov 9, 1:20�pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > . . .The other half of the equation was that she started feeling bad
> > about how all her friends had a plan/future (because they were talking about
> > going to college) and Haley felt left out of that discussion for awhile.
>
> Also, it was stated that Haley was upset that Alex showed up in her
> classes, partly because she was left behind so much (and partly
> because Alex was advanced.)
>
>
> > I doubt many colleges care at all about individual grades. �The end GPA (vs.
> > scale) and the class rank are about all that would matter. � . ..
>
> How do colleges handle the fact that high schools can be vastly
> different in their grading? A "C" in a good school could easily be an
> "A" in a regular school. Likewise with class rank--a kid in a good
> school could be in the middle but in the top at a plain school.

I'll bet most college admissions officers are fully aware of these
differences, and know which high schools are better than others.

>
> Some employers are prejudiced in that way--they often simply require
> someone be in the top fifth of their class to be considered. Someone
> in an average college could easily be in the top fifth, but only the
> in the middle if at a good college.
>
> Indeed, is it better to graduate with a "C" average from an Ivy League
> average or an "A" average from an average college (like a plain state
> college)?

In my experience, most people are just impressed that I got into and
graduated from MIT. The fact that I came out with a C average doesn't
ever come up (which is pretty much where I started -- my SAT scores were
about 50th percentile for entrants). Similarly, you often hear people
being touted as "Harvard graduates" (as in "did Bush really graduate
from Harvard?").

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 1:25 pm, "Rhino" <no_offline_contact_ple...@example.com>
wrote:

> I'll bet the Haley character was deliberately kicked out of college to
> ensure that she is back home for a while and in more of the episodes rather
> than not appearing at all or appearing only very briefly. The fact that the
> writers engineered this in a way that was true to her character is to their
> credit.

It was reported that the actress had major surgery. Perhaps the brief
appearances were to give her a light workload while recovering.

> I watch a lot more dramas than sitcoms but Modern Family is my favourite
> current sitcom.

Every character on the show is grossly incompetent and self-serving.
But it seems the show is pushing their stupidtiy to extreme levels,
deflating the 'believability'. Sitcoms require some disbelief to
enjoy the show, but if it taken too far it ruins the show. Many
people dislike 2 broke girls for that reason.

[Obveeus]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
On Nov 9, 1:20 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

>> I doubt many colleges care at all about individual grades. The end GPA
>> (vs.
>> scale) and the class rank are about all that would matter. . ..
>
>How do colleges handle the fact that high schools can be vastly
>different in their grading? A "C" in a good school could easily be an
>"A" in a regular school. Likewise with class rank--a kid in a good
>school could be in the middle but in the top at a plain school.

Colleges also look at SAT/ACT scores.

>Indeed, is it better to graduate with a "C" average from an Ivy League
>average or an "A" average from an average college (like a plain state
>college)?

I don't think it is even possible to graduate with a 'C' average from an Ivy
League school. They pretty much assume the kids that got in deserve good
grades and hand out mostly/only As and Bs as a result. Surviving the grade
system at 'plain state' is actually much more difficult (depending on the
major) since many of those schools intentionally take in more freshman
students than they intend to graduate and have 'drop out courses'
specifically designed to weed out a good chunk of the students from the
program.

[Obveeus]

I agree and I'll add that sending your daughter off to college is a good way
to delay the grandchildren phase and a good way to put her in a situation to
rub elbows with a better quality of potential husband.

[Dano]

"Barry Margolin" wrote in message
news:barmar-788F3D....@news.eternal-september.org...

==========================

Mmm hmm...how's that working out?

[Obveeus]

"Dano" <janea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Barry Margolin" wrote in message

>> In article <k7jhhn$dbn$1...@dont-email.me>, "Dano" <janea...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Never mind all of that. Why on earth is this girl going to college at
>>> all?
>>> Other than to party. She never showed ANY inclination towards learning
>>> or
>>> even general thoughtfulness. This was the LAST place she should have
>>> gone.
>>> IF we're going to be the least bit serious that is.
>>
>> Because she's a middle-class white girl, and that's what is expected of
>> her. Her parents didn't want her to turn into a band groupie or trophy
>> wife, which seemed to be what her inclinations were. They're pushing her
>> to better herself -- oh, the horror!
>
> ==========================
>
> Mmm hmm...how's that working out?

I suppose that depends on whether or not she got her tuition back when they
dumped her out this early. If they got the tuition costs back then this
could be the most valuable life lesson that Haley has ever had. If they
didn't get the tuition cost back, then Haley can now go get that job at the
mall and begin paying rent and doing indentured servant work around the
house until next year.

[Dano]

wrote in message
news:15528835-af85-4ae0...@g18g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...

====================================

I think a bit of introspection is in order Hancock. Read what you wrote and
tell me if much of that doesn't sound just a teensy bit sexist.

Look. It's just a comedy. But these folks are NOT doing a great job of
parenting IMHO. At least with Haley. They have spoiled her terribly and
rather obviously I thought. Of course they're very well to do...though for
all we know Jay has helped quite a bit. Mom gets to stay home...yet dad
seems to be quite successful in REAL ESTATE of all things...even though he's
pretty obviously a nitwit.

But I think my point remains that college is not ALWAYS a wise
choice...especially given this girl's behavior. I helped put two daughters
through college...so I know a little bit about this. Had either pulled a
stunt even close to this, a disciplinary board would not have been needed.
I would have had her pack up right away. What was far worse was her initial
attitude when she was bailed out.

[~consul]

'tis on this 11/9/2012 11:48 AM, wrote Obveeus thus to say:
> "Mason Barge" <mason...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:43:37 -0600, Lord Vader III

>>> I don't remember what college Haley got into but, unless it was a Ivy
>>> League type of college, I seriously doubt she would have been brought
>>> before a school board for underage drinking.
>> Dude! You think Ivy League colleges are *more* likely to kick someone out
>> for underage drinking? I'd think, if anything, they are more tolerant.
> Yep. Also, I don't remember what college Haley got into, but I do remember
> being surprised that it was even high enough up the food chain of quality to
> have campus housing. Her past academic achievements would have suggested
> local Community College at best.

Out here in the East Coast, especially in Western and Upstate NY, there are plenty of mediocre colleges that are pretty small and still have on-campus housing. A bunch of the SUNY schools are like that.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, consul -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 1:59 pm, Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> > How do colleges handle the fact that high schools can be vastly
> > different in their grading?  A "C" in a good school could easily be an
> > "A" in a regular school.  Likewise with class rank--a kid in a good
> > school could be in the middle but in the top at a plain school.
>
> I'll bet most college admissions officers are fully aware of these
> differences, and know which high schools are better than others.

In high school, they told us that local colleges were aware of the
differences, but a distant college would not be. There are, after
all, thousands of high schools across the country, and even within
high schools they are might be multiple tracks. Indeed, that was one
reason the SATs were created--to have a common standard of grading.

> > Indeed, is it better to graduate with a "C" average from an Ivy League
> > average or an "A" average from an average college (like a plain state
> > college)?
>
> In my experience, most people are just impressed that I got into and
> graduated from MIT. The fact that I came out with a C average doesn't
> ever come up (which is pretty much where I started -- my SAT scores were
> about 50th percentile for entrants).  Similarly, you often hear people
> being touted as "Harvard graduates" (as in "did Bush really graduate
> from Harvard?").

It sure seemed that better companies expected a high class rank
regardless of the quality of the school, or even the school. When
seeking employment, there were lots of kids from plain schools with
good grades who beat out kids from good schools with fair grades.
(This isn't comparing Ivy League schools vs other schools, just better
colleges vs. lesser colleges.)

Part of the reason was that better companies had many applicants and
used some basic criteria and staff to screen the pool, ignoring some
significant differences. This kind of approach often hurt technical
applicants, where a personnel office clerk would scan a resume seeking
certain key words as opposed to actually evaluating the details of a
resume. It worked in reverse too, where unqualified applicants would
be invited in for an interview simply because they had the keyword on
their resume, but not the depth of experience required by the
position.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 2:26 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> I don't think it is even possible to graduate with a 'C' average from an Ivy
> League school.  They pretty much assume the kids that got in deserve good
> grades and hand out mostly/only As and Bs as a result.  Surviving the grade
> system at 'plain state' is actually much more difficult (depending on the
> major) since many of those schools intentionally take in more freshman
> students than they intend to graduate and have 'drop out courses'
> specifically designed to weed out a good chunk of the students from the
> program.

There are quality competitive schools that do exactly as you describe
above--weed out students. A "C" from such a school is worth more than
say a "A" from a plain state school.

I suspect graduate school admissions personnel are aware of that, but
many employers are not.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 2:29 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> I agree and I'll add that sending your daughter off to college is a good way
> to delay the grandchildren phase and a good way to put her in a situation to

> rub elbows with a better quality of potential husband.-

Which has been done by families for generations. In the old days,
daughters knew full way what and why they were doing. These days, the
girls would probably be offended (I think Haley would 'cause she
thinks of herself as superior and smart).

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 2:47 pm, "Dano" <janeandd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Because she's a middle-class white girl, and that's what is expected of
> her. Her parents didn't want her to turn into a band groupie or trophy
> wife, which seemed to be what her inclinations were. They're pushing her
> to better herself -- oh, the horror!
>
> ==========================
>
> Mmm hmm...how's that working out?

Because of the incompetence of Haley's parents, it's not working out.
But for many families, the parents work hard to see that the kid at
least passes their classes (perhaps for the first two years), and be
in a better position.

Of course, there are lots of parents who think that once their kid
turns 18 the kid is now totally on their own.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 2:55 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> > Mmm hmm...how's that working out?
>
> I suppose that depends on whether or not she got her tuition back when they
> dumped her out this early.  If they got the tuition costs back then this
> could be the most valuable life lesson that Haley has ever had.  If they
> didn't get the tuition cost back, then Haley can now go get that job at the
> mall and begin paying rent and doing indentured servant work around the
> house until next year.

I recall policies that under the circumstances and by this point in
time there is no tuition or dorm refund. But maybe they'd get a small
portion back (25%?). I would think the parents would be rather pissed
about that since some serious money was totally wasted.

Haley could get a job at the mall. But it is very doubtful that Haley
could keep a job at the mall.

There was a sitcom in which the daughter got a job in a fashion store
and was overjoyed to have an employee discount. But she spent so much
on clothes, far more than her paycheck, that her 'job' almost bankrupt
her parents. I could sure see Haley doing that.

[Obveeus]

Actually, one of Haley's biggest problems is that she does not think of
herself as capable/smart and so she does not expect more from herself than
she is currently achieving. The fault there lies with Haley spending way
too much time focusing on her inferiority compared to Alex and not enough
time focusing on simply trying to do her best and judging herself more in
comparison to 'normal people' than to her academically stellar little
sister.

[Obveeus]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Nov 9, 2:47 pm, "Dano" <janeandd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Because she's a middle-class white girl, and that's what is expected of
>> her. Her parents didn't want her to turn into a band groupie or trophy
>> wife, which seemed to be what her inclinations were. They're pushing her
>> to better herself -- oh, the horror!
>>
>> ==========================
>>
>> Mmm hmm...how's that working out?
>
>
>Because of the incompetence of Haley's parents, it's not working out.
>But for many families, the parents work hard to see that the kid at
>least passes their classes (perhaps for the first two years), and be
>in a better position.

I disagree. The parents can't go to college with the kid, continue to look
over her homework, walk her to class each day, etc... At some point, they
have to let her try/fail on her own.

>Of course, there are lots of parents who think that once their kid
>turns 18 the kid is now totally on their own.

The government says that once they turn 18 and graduate a parent is legally
entitled to kick them to the curb.

[icebreaker]

"Mason Barge" <mason...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lpaq98hr20s3lfjks...@4ax.com...

I think the only college where you might get into dutch would be a strict
religiously affiliated one that forbids consumption by anyone. There are
very few of those.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 3:31 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:

> >Because of the incompetence of Haley's parents, it's not working out.
> >But for many families, the parents work hard to see that the kid at
> >least passes their classes (perhaps for the first two years), and be
> >in a better position.
>
> I disagree.  The parents can't go to college with the kid, continue to look
> over her homework, walk her to class each day, etc...  At some point, they
> have to let her try/fail on her own.

Yes, the parents can't look over her homework nor work her to class
every day.

But, the parents could regularly check with her about her progress,
including performance on intermediate tests and quizs and her studies
in general. If not too far away, they could visit the school
periodically.

Good parents do take an interest in their children's college work. A
girl like Haley would require more interest. Haley's parents were
clueless.

> >Of course, there are lots of parents who think that once their kid
> >turns 18 the kid is now totally on their own.
>
> The government says that once they turn 18 and graduate a parent is legally

> entitled to kick them to the curb.-

Yes, that is their legal option (as it is also the kid's). But many
parents realize 18 is still rather young and remain supportive with
some supervision.

[Obveeus]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Nov 9, 3:31 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> >Because of the incompetence of Haley's parents, it's not working out.
>> >But for many families, the parents work hard to see that the kid at
>> >least passes their classes (perhaps for the first two years), and be
>> >in a better position.
>>
>> I disagree. The parents can't go to college with the kid, continue to
>> look
>> over her homework, walk her to class each day, etc... At some point, they
>> have to let her try/fail on her own.
>
>Yes, the parents can't look over her homework nor work her to class
>every day.
>
>But, the parents could regularly check with her about her progress,
>including performance on intermediate tests and quizs and her studies
>in general.

I'm sure they talk to her on the phone and ask her how school is going. If
she says she is doing fine, passing, etc... what more are they supposed to
do?

> If not too far away, they could visit the school periodically.

Yes, I suppose they could spy on her to see if she is going to class, but
the teachers are not going to talk to the parents and convey grade
information and such.

>> >Of course, there are lots of parents who think that once their kid
>> >turns 18 the kid is now totally on their own.
>>
>> The government says that once they turn 18 and graduate a parent is
>> legally
>> entitled to kick them to the curb.-
>
>Yes, that is their legal option (as it is also the kid's). But many
>parents realize 18 is still rather young and remain supportive with
>some supervision.

An 18 year old in college should not need supervision, but I suppose that
all depends on whether the 18 year old is a responsible person in the first
place.

[Barry Margolin]

In article
<2db4f6fc-e22e-442e...@d17g2000vbv.googlegroups.com>,

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Nov 9, 3:31�pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >Because of the incompetence of Haley's parents, it's not working out.
> > >But for many families, the parents work hard to see that the kid at
> > >least passes their classes (perhaps for the first two years), and be
> > >in a better position.
> >
> > I disagree. �The parents can't go to college with the kid, continue to look
> > over her homework, walk her to class each day, etc... �At some point, they
> > have to let her try/fail on her own.
>
> Yes, the parents can't look over her homework nor work her to class
> every day.
>
> But, the parents could regularly check with her about her progress,
> including performance on intermediate tests and quizs and her studies
> in general. If not too far away, they could visit the school
> periodically.
>
> Good parents do take an interest in their children's college work. A
> girl like Haley would require more interest. Haley's parents were
> clueless.

Indeed, I recently heard that these days, college kids typically keep in
touch with their parents on a daily basis. They all have cell phones,
and they either call or text each other frequently. When I went away to
college 30+ years ago, it was more common to call home about once a week.

This show *has* shown the family keeping in touch with her -- there have
been a number of scenes of them skyping.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 2:59 pm, "Dano" <janeandd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think a bit of introspection is in order Hancock.  Read what you wrote and
> tell me if much of that doesn't sound just a teensy bit sexist.

Sure it is "sexist". Teenage boys do not necessarily behave the same
way as Haley does--they have their own set of issues. We have Jake
and Eldridge. As to careers, there are still quite a few careers,
that for whatever reason, still attract mostly men or mostly women.

> Look.  It's just a comedy.  But these folks are NOT doing a great job of
> parenting IMHO.  At least with Haley.  They have spoiled her terribly and
> rather obviously I thought.  Of course they're very well to do...though for
> all we know Jay has helped quite a bit.  Mom gets to stay home...yet dad
> seems to be quite successful in REAL ESTATE of all things...even though he's
> pretty obviously a nitwit.

True.

> But I think my point remains that college is not ALWAYS a wise
> choice...especially given this girl's behavior.  I helped put two daughters
> through college...so I know a little bit about this.  Had either pulled a
> stunt even close to this, a disciplinary board would not have been needed.
> I would have had her pack up right away.  What was far worse was her initial
> attitude when she was bailed out.

As someone else mentioned, one justification for college is simply to
put the kid in association with a better class of people. Crass,
perhaps, but still true. A secondary justification would be the hope
that perhaps the kid would get her act together and do ok. In the
show, last year Haley acted as if that was her plan, she did want to
go to college..

If it was my kid under those circumstances of Haley, I would've fought
very hard to (1) prevent her expulsion (which was blatantly unfair
under the actual circumstances), and (2) push her hard to at least
finish the semester, if at all possible. Most colleges have resources
to help struggling freshmen and I would've insisted she utilize
them*. At the end of the semester we would reassess the situation--
whether to stay in that college, go to a different one (eg community
college or other training), or just get a job.


* While some colleges use tough courses to weed out students, other
have support systems. Indeed, some colleges review freshmen mid-term
grades and call in students who have done poorly to individually
discuss the situation and arrange for assistance.

[Mason Barge]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 12:07:10 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>On Nov 9, 1:59 pm, Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>

[...]

>
>It sure seemed that better companies expected a high class rank
>regardless of the quality of the school, or even the school. When
>seeking employment, there were lots of kids from plain schools with
>good grades who beat out kids from good schools with fair grades.
>(This isn't comparing Ivy League schools vs other schools, just better
>colleges vs. lesser colleges.)

I've only had experience with hiring in law firms, but the school counts
very heavily in assessing what the grades mean.

Someone who is in the top five of their class and editor of a law review
can overcome going to a fairly humble law school. The top firm in Atlanta
will look at an applicant who is #1 at Mercer or Georgia State, because
even though it isn't a great school, Ga. State may be the only place a
brilliant legal mind could afford.

Top 1% at Georgia State = top 5% at U. of Ga. = top 10% at Emory = top
25% at U.Va. = top 50% at Columbia = top 80% at Harvard or Yale.

The odd thing is, there is not all *that* much difference in the quality
of the education available as between Ga. State and Harvard. It's the
student body that causes the huge difference. Better students admitted
and tougher competition for class ranking.

[Mason Barge]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 14:26:22 -0500, "Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote:

>
><hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Nov 9, 1:20 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>> I doubt many colleges care at all about individual grades. The end GPA
>>> (vs.
>>> scale) and the class rank are about all that would matter. . ..
>>
>>How do colleges handle the fact that high schools can be vastly
>>different in their grading? A "C" in a good school could easily be an
>>"A" in a regular school. Likewise with class rank--a kid in a good
>>school could be in the middle but in the top at a plain school.
>
>Colleges also look at SAT/ACT scores.
>
>>Indeed, is it better to graduate with a "C" average from an Ivy League
>>average or an "A" average from an average college (like a plain state
>>college)?
>
>I don't think it is even possible to graduate with a 'C' average from an Ivy
>League school. They pretty much assume the kids that got in deserve good
>grades and hand out mostly/only As and Bs as a result.

It depends on the courses you take.

And I don't just mean sciences. You can get C's in English, history,
foreign languages, etc., even if you're trying reasonably hard. But the
people who would get C's usually find an easy major.

[Mason Barge]

I think I need to step in, at this point, and remind everyone that this is
a sitcom.

[Obveeus]

True...and almost all of them die before they even turn 10.

[benjamin]

On Friday, 9 November 2012 16:05:10 UTC-5, icebreaker wrote:
> "Mason Barge" <mason...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:lpaq98hr20s3lfjks...@4ax.com...

>

> >>I don't remember what college Haley got into but, unless it was a Ivy
> >>League type of college, I seriously doubt she would have been brought
> >>before a school board for underage drinking.
>
> > Dude! You think Ivy League colleges are *more* likely to kick someone out
> > for underage drinking? I'd think, if anything, they are more tolerant.
>
> I think the only college where you might get into dutch would be a strict
> religiously affiliated one that forbids consumption by anyone. There are
> very few of those.

I think you're all missing the point. Haley was not brought before a disciplinary board for underage drinking. It was for being arrested for among other more serious charges, underage drinking as well as poor academic performance.

And as another noted, allowing her to withdraw was a gift.

The actress has serious kidney problems that make it difficult for her to stand for long periods and underwent transplant surgery.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/14/kidney-dysplasia-sarah-hyland-transplant_n_1514804.html

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 7:29 pm, benjamin <beng...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  I think you're all missing the point. Haley was not brought before a disciplinary board for underage drinking. It was for being arrested for among other more serious charges, underage drinking as well as  poor academic performance.

I think everyone agrees the other charges were ridiculous. I don't
recall them talking about poor academic performance, and besides, the
semester is not even half over yet and it's way too soon to discuss
her grades as a major issue.

>  The actress has serious kidney problems that make it difficult for her to stand for long periods and underwent transplant surgery.

Which is probably why she had a limited role so far this season.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 9, 5:28 pm, Mason Barge <masonba...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think I need to step in, at this point, and remind everyone that this is

> a sitcom.-

We're discussing the extent of disbelief this sitcom requires. We're
also discussing college freshman challenges in that context.

Many people felt B/VS lost something when Buffy entered college--it
wasn't quite the same thing as high school for a variety of reasons.
Likewise when V/M entered college and got her PI license.

[BTR1701]

In article <k7jhq6$lus$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
"Rhino" <no_offline_c...@example.com> wrote:

> I'll bet the Haley character was deliberately kicked out of college to
> ensure that she is back home for a while

I hate to break it to you, but *everything* that happens on a fictional
TV show is deliberately pre-arranged.

[Dano]

"Mason Barge" wrote in message
news:3s0r98phvun64h45m...@4ax.com...

============================================

If only the VERY thin skinned Mason hadn't killfiled me he would know I said
just that 2 and a half hours earlier.

Oh well.

[Mason Barge]

I think it was as much how the show was run as the transition. I actually
thought Buffy did the transition to college really well -- it was
interesting and fresh.

But Season 4 was also the season when Angel left and Whedon began to turn
over the general direction to Noxon. So yeah, maybe it wasn't as good
(although it wasn't the disaster to come in Seasons 5 and 6), but I don't
think it's because Buffy graduated. I think if she had stayed in high
school, it would have gotten stale.

[Mason Barge]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:52:51 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>On Nov 9, 5:28 pm, Mason Barge <masonba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think I need to step in, at this point, and remind everyone that this is
>> a sitcom.-
>
>We're discussing the extent of disbelief this sitcom requires. We're
>also discussing college freshman challenges in that context.

Yeah, but you can't lose sight of the primary purpose of Haley going to
college, which is not to get an education, better her career, or get a
husband.

Haley is going to college for the sole reason of creating more situations
she can screw up.

[Dano]

Yeah, but you can't lose sight of the primary purpose of Haley going to
college, which is not to get an education, better her career, or get a
husband.

Haley is going to college for the sole reason of creating more situations
she can screw up.

========================================

Which can be said of any character...doing anything...in any sitcom.

Capt. Obvious Barge strikes again.

[Obveeus]

Why is the word 'up' added to that sentence?