Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
off. They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
guilty.
Most of shows making out defense attorneys and their clients to be
saints die on the vine.
The only one I could stand was "Garrow's Law" because at least back in
the late 1700's defendants had a reason to cry foul.
>Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>off. They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
>guilty.
>Most of shows making out defense attorneys and their clients to be
>saints die on the vine.
"The Practice" played around with this kind of thing very successfully
- "I know my client is scum, and he probably did it, but the state has
NOT shown any evidence, and this is the United States of America, ..."
And, "Do you know what's really terrifying in court, is when your
client actually is innocent!"
In article <ccf48961-b1b5-447e-a145-c6a43216b...@m8g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
RichA <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
> fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
> off. They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
> guilty.
Statistically that's not just a belief. It's true.
On Jul 1, 8:25 pm, RichA <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
> fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
> off. They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
> guilty.
A nephew of mine recently graduated and passed the bar and like many
lawyers from other than the prestigious law schools he's hustling work
at the local courts defending the DWIs the drunk and disorderly the
doemestic violence shoplifting theft of service and the like ...
He tells me that they are all guilty and the evidence clearly shows
that ... yet because of the hot shot TV defense lawyers they feel they
should easily beat the rap ...
He has to spend a lot of time explaining to they why they will be
found guilty if the case goes to trial and the minor plead down he got
them is the best he could do ...
>> Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>> fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>> off.
> And they're right.
Well sort of. Bear in mind that more cases are pled out than not, usually at the urging of the defense attorney.
> On Jul 1, 8:25 pm, RichA <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>> fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>> off. They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
>> guilty.
> A nephew of mine recently graduated and passed the bar and like many
> lawyers from other than the prestigious law schools he's hustling work
> at the local courts defending the DWIs the drunk and disorderly the
> doemestic violence shoplifting theft of service and the like ...
> He tells me that they are all guilty and the evidence clearly shows
> that ... yet because of the hot shot TV defense lawyers they feel they
> should easily beat the rap ...
<snort> I kind of think they'd think they should beat the rap even if there had never been a lawyer show.
>> Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>> fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>> off.
> And they're right.
Well sort of. Bear in mind that more cases are pled out than not,
usually at the urging of the defense attorney.
=========================================
You've got that right. It's the dirty little secret of our criminal justice system. Something like 90% of all criminal cases are plea bargained. Poor defendants who can't afford decent representation often "take a plea" for fear of conviction that will lead to longer sentences. Public defenders are notoriously overworked in most places...especially in urban courthouses.
While the rich and powerful can get terrific representation from highly regarded, well connected and successful attorneys and get off lightly...especially in cases like DUI.
I think most people believe that defense attorneys are by and large
slimy, and for most of us that disdain probably collectively coalesced
with the OJ trial, and we all saw Barry Schreck talk his way out of
DNA evidence on one test that had IIRC a one in one hundred sixty
seven billion chance that the blood belonged to somebody besides OJ,
and we all saw Johnnie Cochran with his courtroom antics, riding
roughshod over the judge and prosecution. We watched a rich guy buy
his way out of life in prison, thanks to defense attorneys.
In article <2c9f969a-c2ad-457a-a5aa-d8a8fc339...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Michael OConnor <mpoconn...@aol.com> wrote:
> I think most people believe that defense attorneys are by and large
> slimy, and for most of us that disdain probably collectively coalesced
> with the OJ trial, and we all saw Barry Schreck talk his way out of
> DNA evidence on one test that had IIRC a one in one hundred sixty
> seven billion chance that the blood belonged to somebody besides OJ,
> and we all saw Johnnie Cochran with his courtroom antics, riding
> roughshod over the judge and prosecution. We watched a rich guy buy
> his way out of life in prison, thanks to defense attorneys.
But the prosecution was even slimier. We saw Marcia Clark commit perjury right to Ito's face, and he knew it. We saw the DNA expert for the prosecution admit that her entire testimony was false. Ito should have had people taken out of his courtroom in shackles routinely.
Unfortunately the only one he stuck to his guns on his punishment for was Kristin Jeanette-Meyers.
-- "Every time a Kardashian gets a TV show, an angel dies."
Mason Barge <masonba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 17:25:13 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>>fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>>off.
>And they're right.
>>They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
>>guilty.
>And, again, they're right, but not as often as #1. If you didn't have
>defense attorneys, though, the percentage would shrink fast.
Mason, you don't know what you're talking about. What do you know about
running a law practice?
In nine television seasons of 30 to 39 episodes and 80 novels and short
stories, on the radio and in the movies, Erle Stanley Gardner's Perry Mason
demonstrated that you could run a successful law practice specializing
in criminal defense taking on nothing but innocent clients.
David E. Kelley had four television series featuring criminal law
practices with mainly innocent clients. John Grisham and Scott Turrow
write best sellers about mainly innocent clients.
No one would exaggerate for dramatic purposes, would they?
>>> Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>>> fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>>> off.
>> And they're right.
>>> They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
>>> guilty.
>> And, again, they're right, but not as often as #1. If you didn't have
>> defense attorneys, though, the percentage would shrink fast.
> Mason, you don't know what you're talking about. What do you know about
> running a law practice?
> In nine television seasons of 30 to 39 episodes and 80 novels and short
> stories, on the radio and in the movies, Erle Stanley Gardner's Perry Mason
> demonstrated that you could run a successful law practice specializing
> in criminal defense taking on nothing but innocent clients.
Actually he did a fair bit of commercial work as well. I'm not sure to what degree attorneys were specialized the way they are now in those days.
David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
>On 7/2/2012 2:23 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Mason Barge <masonba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 17:25:13 -0700 (PDT), RichA <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>>>>fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>>>>off.
>>>And they're right.
>>>>They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
>>>>guilty.
>>>And, again, they're right, but not as often as #1. If you didn't have
>>>defense attorneys, though, the percentage would shrink fast.
>>Mason, you don't know what you're talking about. What do you know about
>>running a law practice?
>>In nine television seasons of 30 to 39 episodes and 80 novels and short
>>stories, on the radio and in the movies, Erle Stanley Gardner's Perry Mason
>>demonstrated that you could run a successful law practice specializing
>>in criminal defense taking on nothing but innocent clients.
>Actually he did a fair bit of commercial work as well. I'm not sure to >what degree attorneys were specialized the way they are now in those days.
His commercial work was a loss leader to get those innocent criminal
clients into the door. Simple wills always led to murder. Business advice
always led to the murder of one of the business partners. File a divorce?
One of the spouses ended up dead.
It's like Mason himself created the situations in which the murders would
invariably occur. It's called value-added law practice.
>>> Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>>> fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>>> off.
>> And they're right.
> Well sort of. Bear in mind that more cases are pled out than not,
> usually at the urging of the defense attorney.
> =========================================
> You've got that right. It's the dirty little secret of our criminal
> justice system. Something like 90% of all criminal cases are plea
> bargained. Poor defendants who can't afford decent representation often
> "take a plea" for fear of conviction that will lead to longer sentences. > Public defenders are notoriously overworked in most places...especially
> in urban courthouses.
> While the rich and powerful can get terrific representation from highly
> regarded, well connected and successful attorneys and get off
> lightly...especially in cases like DUI.
Apparently we need another Obamatax bill to force us all to buy legal
insurance so that everyone's ability to obtain legal representation is
'fair'.
>>>> Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>>>> fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>>>> off.
>>> And they're right.
>> Well sort of. Bear in mind that more cases are pled out than not,
>> usually at the urging of the defense attorney.
>> =========================================
>> You've got that right. It's the dirty little secret of our criminal
>> justice system. Something like 90% of all criminal cases are plea
>> bargained. Poor defendants who can't afford decent representation often
>> "take a plea" for fear of conviction that will lead to longer sentences.
>> Public defenders are notoriously overworked in most places...especially
>> in urban courthouses.
>> While the rich and powerful can get terrific representation from highly
>> regarded, well connected and successful attorneys and get off
>> lightly...especially in cases like DUI.
> >>>>Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
> >>>>fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
> >>>>off.
> >>>And they're right.
> >>>>They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
> >>>>guilty.
> >>>And, again, they're right, but not as often as #1. If you didn't have
> >>>defense attorneys, though, the percentage would shrink fast.
> >>Mason, you don't know what you're talking about. What do you know about
> >>running a law practice?
> >>In nine television seasons of 30 to 39 episodes and 80 novels and short
> >>stories, on the radio and in the movies, Erle Stanley Gardner's Perry Mason
> >>demonstrated that you could run a successful law practice specializing
> >>in criminal defense taking on nothing but innocent clients.
> >Actually he did a fair bit of commercial work as well. I'm not sure to > >what degree attorneys were specialized the way they are now in those days.
> His commercial work was a loss leader to get those innocent criminal
> clients into the door. Simple wills always led to murder. Business advice
> always led to the murder of one of the business partners. File a divorce?
> One of the spouses ended up dead.
> It's like Mason himself created the situations in which the murders would
> invariably occur.
A trick honed to perfection by Jessica Fletcher, perhaps the single most prolific serial killer in American history.
>>>>>Ever since "Law and Order," which often played defense attorneys as
>>>>>fools or corrupt, people see them mostly as ways for the guilty to get
>>>>>off.
>>>>And they're right.
>>>>>They believe when a cop arrests someone, the vast majority are
>>>>>guilty.
>>>>And, again, they're right, but not as often as #1. If you didn't have
>>>>defense attorneys, though, the percentage would shrink fast.
>>>Mason, you don't know what you're talking about. What do you know about
>>>running a law practice?
>>>In nine television seasons of 30 to 39 episodes and 80 novels and short
>>>stories, on the radio and in the movies, Erle Stanley Gardner's Perry Mason
>>>demonstrated that you could run a successful law practice specializing
>>>in criminal defense taking on nothing but innocent clients.
>>Actually he did a fair bit of commercial work as well. I'm not sure to >>what degree attorneys were specialized the way they are now in those days.
>His commercial work was a loss leader to get those innocent criminal
>clients into the door. Simple wills always led to murder. Business advice
>always led to the murder of one of the business partners. File a divorce?
>One of the spouses ended up dead.
>It's like Mason himself created the situations in which the murders would
>invariably occur. It's called value-added law practice.
That wouldn't be a bad idea for a t.v. series. An attorney without enough
business, so he commits crimes and frames his own clients, but always
makes sure to have some sort of exculpatory evidence so he can get them
off.
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 12:16:42 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim8r...@cox.net> wrote:
>In article ><2c9f969a-c2ad-457a-a5aa-d8a8fc339...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> Michael OConnor <mpoconn...@aol.com> wrote:
>> I think most people believe that defense attorneys are by and large
>> slimy, and for most of us that disdain probably collectively coalesced
>> with the OJ trial, and we all saw Barry Schreck talk his way out of
>> DNA evidence on one test that had IIRC a one in one hundred sixty
>> seven billion chance that the blood belonged to somebody besides OJ,
>> and we all saw Johnnie Cochran with his courtroom antics, riding
>> roughshod over the judge and prosecution. We watched a rich guy buy
>> his way out of life in prison, thanks to defense attorneys.
>But the prosecution was even slimier. We saw Marcia Clark commit >perjury right to Ito's face, and he knew it. We saw the DNA expert for >the prosecution admit that her entire testimony was false. Ito should >have had people taken out of his courtroom in shackles routinely.
>Unfortunately the only one he stuck to his guns on his punishment for >was Kristin Jeanette-Meyers.
Yeah, no kidding. The thing about prosecutors is that they have so much
more power than defense lawyers. So the slimy ones do a horrendous amount
of damage.
Dano wrote:
> Poor defendants who can't afford decent representation often > "take a plea" for fear of conviction that will lead to longer > sentences. Public defenders are notoriously overworked in most > places...especially in urban courthouses.
They also get fired if they win too many cases. Having a PD on your
side is like buying antidote from the person who poisoned you.
Back in the 90s six people were accused of molesting children at a Florida
school. Three had a PD and three hired their own lawyers.
In article <k0b6ip$k4...@speranza.aioe.org>,
Alan Smithee <a...@last.inc> said:
> Dano wrote:
>> Poor defendants who can't afford decent representation often
>> "take a plea" for fear of conviction that will lead to longer
>> sentences. Public defenders are notoriously overworked in most
>> places...especially in urban courthouses.
> I think most people believe that defense attorneys are by and large
> slimy, and for most of us that disdain probably collectively coalesced
> with the OJ trial, and we all saw Barry Schreck talk his way out of
> DNA evidence on one test that had IIRC a one in one hundred sixty
> seven billion chance that the blood belonged to somebody besides OJ,
> and we all saw Johnnie Cochran with his courtroom antics, riding
> roughshod over the judge and prosecution. We watched a rich guy buy
> his way out of life in prison, thanks to defense attorneys.
I heard something recently which surprised me - Is it true that convicted crims can pay to upgrade their cell? I believe that a figure of $60 a night was mentioned. Heard this on BBC radio.
> I think most people believe that defense attorneys are by and large
> slimy, and for most of us that disdain probably collectively coalesced
> with the OJ trial, and we all saw Barry Schreck talk his way out of
> DNA evidence on one test that had IIRC a one in one hundred sixty
> seven billion chance that the blood belonged to somebody besides OJ,
> and we all saw Johnnie Cochran with his courtroom antics, riding
> roughshod over the judge and prosecution. We watched a rich guy buy
> his way out of life in prison, thanks to defense attorneys.
I heard something recently which surprised me - Is it true that convicted crims can pay to upgrade their cell? I believe that a figure of $60 a night was mentioned. Heard this on BBC radio.
===========================================
Why don't you get arrested in London and find out?
> In article <k0b6ip$k4...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Alan Smithee <a...@last.inc> said:
>> Dano wrote:
>>> Poor defendants who can't afford decent representation often
>>> "take a plea" for fear of conviction that will lead to longer
>>> sentences. Public defenders are notoriously overworked in most
>>> places...especially in urban courthouses.
>> They also get fired if they win too many cases.
> Cite?
> -- wds
I kind of doubt it, but it seems likely to me that a P.D. with an unusually good track record would get hired away.
