Awake: Finale

[EGK]

Awake turned out to be an excellent mini-serives. I enjoyed the finale a
lot and felt it worked as a season or series ending.

I'm not giving any spoilers and I couldn't tell if they filmed additional
scenes for the final episode or not. It appeared they might have.

It's too bad NBC wouldn't stick with it. It ended up being the kind of
show that cable networks are much better at.

[Nancy R.]

On Thu, 24 May 2012 20:21:28 -0400, EGK <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>Awake turned out to be an excellent mini-serives. I enjoyed the finale a
>lot and felt it worked as a season or series ending.

Good to hear it! A couple of weeks ago I asked about Awake and
Missing, now I'll definitely watch Awake, but delete Missing off my
DVR. Thanks!

[Dano]

"EGK" wrote in message news:1ujtr7d60h97rse7h...@4ax.com...

======================================

I agree with your initial sentiment. It was fine for a single season. No
where to go but downhill for another.

[suzeeq]

Yeah, unless they came up with more conspiracies, there's not a lot they
could have continued with.

[EGK]

I don't think most of us watching were originally expecting such a mundane
answer to the conspiracy. I thought the ending offerred both closure and a
set up for more questions about the nature of his dreams. There were lots
of places it could have gone with that if it had been renewed.

[Mason Barge]

On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:06:55 -0600, suzeeq <su...@imbris.com> wrote:

If they'd been renewed, they wouldn't have had this (or the previous)
episode.

[EGK]

On Fri, 25 May 2012 12:42:15 -0400, Mason Barge <mason...@gmail.com>
wrote:

They would have according to the creator of the show. It was written and
filmed exactly as they intended. He says if the show had continued,
Britton would have been back in the jail cell in the red world.

http://www.hitfix.com//whats-alan-watching/awake-series-finale-interview-with-creator-kyle-killen

Vague spoiler:

0

0

0

0

I liked the ending but it was pretty ambiguous. You can see it as offering
closure as it was simply a dream within a dream and giving a happy ending.
Or you can see it as Britton's cracking psyche offering up yet another,
third world dream once he realized he had the power to dream whatever
"reality" he wanted. They would have played with that a lot if it had
continued.

[Rick]

"EGK" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1ujtr7d60h97rse7h...@4ax.com...

(Spoiler space)






......................





......................






I couldn't disagree more. The whole series basically ends up as a dream.
Nothing we were shown on the previous episodes really happened. If this
were a novel method for ending a series or group of episodes, I might have
been more impressed. But we've seen variations of this numerous times,
including on shows like Life on Mars, Newhart , St. Elsewhere, and to a
lesser extent, Dallas and Married with Children. I was very disappointed.

[EGK]

That's how it ended if you wanted it to end that way. It's not necessarily
what actually happened though. Britton just dreamed another dream. One
where his family was still in tact.

[Dano]

"EGK" wrote in message news:rnhvr75cs7leubf49...@4ax.com...

===========================================

Like The Sopranos...the story never ends this way..."it just goes on and on
and on..."

[Rick]

"EGK" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:rnhvr75cs7leubf49...@4ax.com...

Making the "reality" at the end just another dream isn't particularly
satisfying either. Then it becomes just another derivation of the old
Twilight Zone episode "Shadow Play", where Dennis Weaver continuously wakes
up from successive dreams, with each reality a little bit different from the
previous one.

There are a lot of things they could have done to make this more
interesting - mind manipulation, implanted memories, an actual psychiatric
problem, true parallel worlds (in the SF sense), some kind of faked reality
(like the Truman show), etc. Just defaulting to dreams within dreams seemed
like a real letdown.

[EGK]

I didn't see it that way. They could have gone in any direction you
mentioned if the show had continued. As it was, I was glad they had an
ending that worked with the 13 episodes we got.
Did you read that interview with the show's creator that I posted? He talks
about the ending.

http://www.hitfix.com//whats-alan-watching/awake-series-finale-interview-with-creator-kyle-killen

The show always reminded me a lot in tone of the US version of Life on Mars.
A lot of people hated the ending they did for that as well but again, I was
glad they gave it closure.

[Ian J. Ball]

In article <86mtr7h4bi38qcng0...@4ax.com>,

That's throwing the baby out with the bath water. :(

"Missing" was worth watching on its own merits - at worst, you could
just stop the final episode at the point where Ashley Judd goes off to
get the car (about 30 seconds before the end of the finale episode), and
you'd be totally fine.

--
"We're gonna need a lot of therapy." - the character Rachel in "Bunnyman"
(named 1 of the 5 Worst Horror Films of 2011 by 28DaysLaterAnalysis.com!!)

[anim8rFSK]

In article
<ijball-NO_SPAM-9F1...@news.eternal-september.org>,

"Ian J. Ball" <ijball-...@mac.invalid> wrote:

> In article <86mtr7h4bi38qcng0...@4ax.com>,
> Nancy R. <nran...@comcast.nospam> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 24 May 2012 20:21:28 -0400, EGK <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Awake turned out to be an excellent mini-serives. I enjoyed the finale a
> > >lot and felt it worked as a season or series ending.
> >
> > Good to hear it! A couple of weeks ago I asked about Awake and
> > Missing, now I'll definitely watch Awake, but delete Missing off my
> > DVR. Thanks!
>
> That's throwing the baby out with the bath water. :(
>
> "Missing" was worth watching on its own merits - at worst, you could
> just stop the final episode at the point where Ashley Judd goes off to
> get the car (about 30 seconds before the end of the finale episode), and
> you'd be totally fine.

Or cut to her boss saying "We're gonna need a puffier face"

--
So we're all agreed that Clod is as stupid as Charlie Sheen?

[Rick]

>>>>> Awake turned out to be an excellent mini-serives. I enjoyed the
>>>>> finale
>>>>> a
>>>>> lot and felt it worked as a season or series ending.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not giving any spoilers and I couldn't tell if they filmed
>>>>> additional
>>>>> scenes for the final episode or not. It appeared they might have.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's too bad NBC wouldn't stick with it. It ended up being the kind
>>>>> of
>>>>> show that cable networks are much better at.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>(Spoiler space)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

There's actually a better interview with him in which he pretty much says
the final reality at the end isn't "real" and in which he says that people
comparing it to Newhart and Dallas (as I did) are wrong. Specifically, he
states:

"... in no way should it be interpreted as, 'He woke up and his family was
fine. He'd just been having two nightmares.' "

He also give a bit more insight into what would have been next year's plot,
saying the red and green worlds would have continued and also suggesting
that Michael would have started getting involved with Tara in the green
world.

http://tvline.com/2012/05/25/awake-season-series-finale-review-questions-answered/

[Barnum]

On May 25, 2:57 pm, EGK <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> Did you read that interview with the show's creator that I posted?  He talks
> about the ending.
>

> http://www.hitfix.com//whats-alan-watching/awake-series-finale-interv...

Judging from the excerpts below, this was another "Lost", where
ultimate answers weren't important. But in this case, with more
honesty about the creators not having worked-out such in the
beginning.

- - - - - - - -

(But obviously you had an answer in your head when you created the
show. Or did you? Was this something you were going to figure out
later?)

"...it was about a man who wanted to live in both these worlds and
what the consequences were of trying to spread yourself between two
existences. I've never looked at it as a mystery that the show solely
exists to solve. [...] It should be left open to interpretation."

(...Had the show continued for X number of years, do you feel there
would have come a point where you would have explained that? Or not?)

"I really can't say. It wasn't in our plans."

[Micky DuPree]

Spoilers for "Turtles All the Way Down."

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

"Rick" <ri...@nospam.com> writes:

> "EGK" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:rnhvr75cs7leubf49...@4ax.com...

>> On Fri, 25 May 2012 13:36:26 -0400, "Rick" <ri...@nospam.com> wrote:

>>> "EGK" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>> news:1ujtr7d60h97rse7h...@4ax.com...

>>>> [attribution lost]:

>>>>> The whole series basically ends up as a dream. Nothing we were

>>>>> shown on the previous episodes really happened. [....] we've seen

>>>>> variations of this numerous times, including on shows like Life on
>>>>> Mars, Newhart , St. Elsewhere, and to a lesser extent, Dallas and
>>>>> Married with Children. I was very disappointed.
>>>>
>>>> That's how it ended if you wanted it to end that way. It's not
>>>> necessarily what actually happened though. Britton just dreamed
>>>> another dream. One where his family was still in tact.
>>>
>>> Making the "reality" at the end just another dream isn't
>>> particularly satisfying either. Then it becomes just another
>>> derivation of the old Twilight Zone episode "Shadow Play", where
>>> Dennis Weaver continuously wakes up from successive dreams, with
>>> each reality a little bit different from the previous one.
>>>
>>> There are a lot of things they could have done to make this more

>>> interesting [....] Just defaulting to dreams within dreams seemed

>>> like a real letdown.
>>
>> I didn't see it that way. They could have gone in any direction you
>> mentioned if the show had continued. As it was, I was glad they had
>> an ending that worked with the 13 episodes we got.
>> Did you read that interview with the show's creator that I posted?
>> He talks about the ending.
>>
>> http://www.hitfix.com//whats-alan-watching/awake-series-finale-interview-with-creator-kyle-killen>
>
> There's actually a better interview with him in which he pretty much
> says the final reality at the end isn't "real" and in which he says
> that people comparing it to Newhart and Dallas (as I did) are wrong.
> Specifically, he states:
>
> "... in no way should it be interpreted as, 'He woke up and his family
> was fine. He'd just been having two nightmares.' "
>
> He also give a bit more insight into what would have been next year's
> plot, saying the red and green worlds would have continued and also
> suggesting that Michael would have started getting involved with
> Tara in the green world.
>
> http://tvline.com/2012/05/25/awake-season-series-finale-review-questions-answered/

What Killen says fits what's on screen, from my perspective, although it
doesn't preclude other interpretations, so if a viewer *wants* a crappy
interpretation, there's nothing to stop him.

I would have preferred something more solid for the turtles to stand on,
but once the phrase was uttered, I distinctly got the idea that Michael
was *not* waking up from two dreams into a reality where the accident
never happened. I thought that Dr. Evans saying, "It's turtles all the
way down," meant that Michael's subconscious realized that if even one of
those worlds was a dream, then why didn't he just dream a better dream
where they were all reunited?

As for the concern that "it was all a dream" indicates that none of it
means anything, on the contrary, I've been impressed by the way Michael's
subconscious uses time in one world to come up with information that is
productive in the other world. (Loved Dr. Evans' line to Dr. Lee, "His
subconscious is a better therapist than you are.")

Even though I think that Michael was walking into a dream at the end
where both loved ones were alive, I think that there would have been
more significance to it than "and in the end, he woke up" had the series
continued. I read the interviews above and noted that, far from it
indicating that all of Michael's problems would have been solved, the
creator says that the third world would have indicated that he's getting
worse.

Whatever was wrong with Michael, I think that Dr. Lee's hints that he was
flirting with paranoid schizophrenia just aren't borne out by Michael's
day-to-day behavior, or even his behavior under stress. Michael trusted
Bird. He trusted Vega. He even trusted Harper until his subconscious
rubbed his nose in it. He was actually slow to suspect a conspiracy in
both worlds. His behavior seemed anything but paranoid.

In fact, in most respects, Michael seems to have a remarkably even keel.
He shows no compulsions, no obsessions (at least not without cause), no
social maladaptations. His only big psychological weakness is his grief.
It's a lulu, though.

Wife World and Son World seemed to coexist fairly peacefully and even
productively, so it was hard to see the harm in Michael maintaining both.
I gather from what Killen said, though, that they were going make things
harder for Michael to juggle in season two. I like to think that when
Michael's multiple worlds caused him to give short shrift to one or more
of them, his sense of responsibility towards the living would be what
pulled him back into just the one solid reality.

I haven't enjoyed a TV series this much in a long time. I'm glad they
were able to end at a reasonable stopping point. Couldn't TNT or USA be
persuaded to pick it up?

-Micky

[Arthur Lipscomb]

Yeah but whatever was produced even if it benefited another dream world,
is ultimately meaningless. I look at as you go to sleep and while
asleep you dream about something that doesn't exist in the real world
but causes anxiety in the dream world, then you go to sleep within the
first dream and dream about something that relieves the anxiety of the
first dream. Once you wake up, you have not done anything productive.
Nor have you really benefited from any insight since the problem solved
in the second dream only exists in the first dream.

At least in Inception there *was* a tangible benefit to the dreamer in
the real world. There was no evidence of that being the case here.

I don't have a problem with it all being a dream. I have a problem with
it all being a pointless dream. Now if he woke up and we learned that
the experience in the two dream worlds did have a *tangible* benefit in
the real world I would see that as a positive. But as it is, the guy
had a nightmare then woke up.

(Loved Dr. Evans' line to Dr. Lee, "His
> subconscious is a better therapist than you are.")

So did I.

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 24 May 2012 20:21:28 -0400, EGK wrote:
>
> Awake turned out to be an excellent mini-serives. I enjoyed the finale a
> lot and felt it worked as a season or series ending.

I liked almost all of the finale. The big reveal at the end -- I'm
not sure yet how I feel about it.

The other big reveal -- Michael in Wife World prison meeting himself
from Son World -- was actually not a reveal since stupid NBC showed
it a week ago in the "next week on". There's a reason why I almost
never watch those, but once in a while I slip up and I'm almost
always sorry.

But after that meeting, and a long walk in front of bickering
therapists ("Even his imagination is a better therapist than you
are."), he walks through a door out of prison and into his bedroom,
where his Son World self is sleeping; he lies down and they merge.

We also get to see Vega in a penguin suit. Obviously it's a shout-
out to "Not My Penguin", but otherwise I'm not sure what it was doing
in this episode since, even without that, we knew Michael-in-
Kessel's-hotel-room had to be a dream or a vision. While Harper was
killing Kessel (again), I wondered how Michael could possibly know
about the little bit of her heel that came off, but in light of the
final reveal (below) that makes sense.

So now in Son World, which we think at this point is reality, Michael
knows that the captain was dirty. He goes to her office, already
knowing that her shoe heel is missing its rubber tip. As she walks to
the office, he hears that heel clicking rhythmically on the floor.
(And now we realize the significance of the several rhythmic clock-
like sounds we've been hearing in the episode.) Michael accuses her
of destroying his family, threatens to shoot her but doesn't, and
she's taken away by Internal Affairs.

We then see Michael in Dr Evans' office, expressing a feeling that
things aren't complete -- he doesn't have "closure", as he usually
does after a case. And soon enough we know why ......


The *big* reveal, of course, was that both Wife World and Son World
were dreams. As I say, I'm not sure how I feel about the premise, but
I think it was beautifully executed.

Michael laid the groundwork by asking Dr Evans, what if [Wife World]
was a dream within a dream. She dismissed that with "It's turtles
all the way down" (I know the story behind that phrase, but I'm not
sure how it applies here), and then after a couple more words she
just stopped, like a mechanism that had failed. That was creepy -- I
actually checked to make sure the DVR hadn't stopped, and then I
noticed Michael's facial expressions.

Then her office door swung open, revealing his bedroom. He walked
through, his clothes magically changed to sleeping attire, and he
walked downstairs to an apparently empty house. The color scheme was
neither a blue nor a yellow wash, but naturalistic tones, which I
guess was supposed to connote reality. We notice also (as he does)
that he's not wearing either rubber band. First Rex and then Hannah
pop into the kitchen, giving no indication that anything was ever
wrong.

As I say, *if* the conclusion was going to be that both Son World and
Wife World were dreams, then I think the show did it about as well as
it could be done. (Both dreams seemed awfully detailed and realistic
and went on for a long time, but dreams to seem that way to the
dreamer.) But "it was all a dream" feels like kind of a letdown
because it's been used too much. /Dallas/ killed that gimmick once
and for all, IMHO.

Well, it's been a great ride with /Awake/. When the DVDs come out,
will I want to watch it again? Maybe. Yes, I do know what's going to
happen. But the execution was generally so good that I might well
want to see it again, just as I enjoy rereading a beloved mystery
story after a year or so, even if I can remember whodunit.

One thing's for sure: I *know* I want to watch the last episode
again. Usually I erase a show from the DVR as soon as I've watched
it. But I know I missed some telling details and foreshadowings in
this one, so I've saved it to watch again.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

[Stan Brown]

I don't know. They could have done something to make Wife and Son
World also an illusion.

Or...

The conspiracy that we saw in Wife World and Son World wasn't real,
but that doesn't mean there wasn't one in reality (if Finale World
was reality, on which I reserve judgment). After all, he might have
noticed some clues in Finale World that his subconscious spun into
the conspiracies in his Wife World and Son World dreams.

Granted, that's a stretch. FWIW, the Onion's AV Club shares your
opinion that there's really nowhere else to go with the show and it's
a good thing it was canceled. Maybe I'm just finding it hard to say
goodbye. :-(

[suzeeq]

Stan Brown wrote:
> On Fri, 25 May 2012 12:42:15 -0400, Mason Barge wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:06:55 -0600, suzeeq <su...@imbris.com> wrote:
>>> Yeah, unless they came up with more conspiracies, there's not a
>>> lot they could have continued with.
>> If they'd been renewed, they wouldn't have had this (or the previous)
>> episode.
>
> I don't know. They could have done something to make Wife and Son
> World also an illusion.

They actually wrote this as the season 1 finale, and if there had been
another season, he'd have been back in the jail cell.

[Nancy R.]

On Fri, 25 May 2012 14:46:37 -0700, "Ian J. Ball"
<ijball-...@mac.invalid> wrote:

> Nancy R. <nran...@comcast.nospam> wrote:
>> Good to hear it! A couple of weeks ago I asked about Awake and
>> Missing, now I'll definitely watch Awake, but delete Missing off my
>> DVR. Thanks!
>
>That's throwing the baby out with the bath water. :(

I'm afraid there's just so much time I have for TV, and just so much
space on the DVR. :(

>"Missing" was worth watching on its own merits - at worst, you could
>just stop the final episode at the point where Ashley Judd goes off to
>get the car (about 30 seconds before the end of the finale episode), and
>you'd be totally fine.

I've already deleted all the episodes, but out of curiosity, does
"you'd be totally fine" mean the series had a self-contained ending
and satisfying conclusion? Apart from the last 30 seconds, that is.

[Ian J. Ball]

On May 26, 8:54 pm, Nancy R. <nranda...@comcast.nospam> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 May 2012 14:46:37 -0700, "Ian J. Ball"

> <ijball-NO_S...@mac.invalid> wrote:

> > Nancy R. <nranda...@comcast.nospam> wrote:
>
> >> Good to hear it! A couple of weeks ago I asked about Awake and
> >> Missing, now I'll definitely watch Awake, but delete Missing off my
> >> DVR. Thanks!
>
> >That's throwing the baby out with the bath water.  :(
>
> I'm afraid there's just so much time I have for TV, and just so much
> space on the DVR. :(
>
> >"Missing" was worth watching on its own merits - at worst, you could
> >just stop the final episode at the point where Ashley Judd goes off to
> >get the car (about 30 seconds before the end of the finale episode), and
> >you'd be totally fine.
>
> I've already deleted all the episodes, but out of curiosity, does
> "you'd be totally fine" mean the series had a self-contained ending
> and satisfying conclusion? Apart from the last 30 seconds, that is.

If you stop it about 30 seconds before the end, the answer is - yeah,
it had a (satisfying) conclusion.

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:53:54 -0400, Stan Brown wrote:
> I liked almost all of the finale. The big reveal at the end -- I'm
> not sure yet how I feel about it.

After writing that article, I read an interview with the showrunner:

http://tvline.com/2012/05/25/awake-season-series-finale-review-
questions-answered/

In it, he rejected the idea that it was all a dream (or dreams). He
said the ending was definitely not "and then he woke up", and he
claimed that you could tell from the actual episode that that wasn't
the answer.

I've saved the last episode to watch again, and I'll be on the
lookout for the clues that Killen claims are there.

[David Johnston]

On Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:31:26 AM UTC-6, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:53:54 -0400, Stan Brown wrote:
> > I liked almost all of the finale. The big reveal at the end -- I'm
> > not sure yet how I feel about it.
>
> After writing that article, I read an interview with the showrunner:
>
> http://tvline.com/2012/05/25/awake-season-series-finale-review-
> questions-answered/
>
> In it, he rejected the idea that it was all a dream (or dreams).

I wouldn't say that, although he seems to prefer the idea that the world where he defeated the conspiracy was the real one, and the "I have my whole family together" is a substitute dream for the one where he ended up a madman in prison. But we'd have to assume that he instantly passed out and started dreaming in the shrink's office to support that interpretation.

In the end this was another "There is no Truth out there" series and we have no reason to believe that he has ever been conscious.

[Micky DuPree]

Spoilers for "Turtles All the Way Down."

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.

In article <MPG.2a2ac69b5...@news.individual.net>, Stan Brown

<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:

> On Thu, 24 May 2012 20:21:28 -0400, EGK wrote:

>> Awake turned out to be an excellent mini-serives. I enjoyed the
>> finale a lot and felt it worked as a season or series ending.
>
> I liked almost all of the finale. The big reveal at the end -- I'm
> not sure yet how I feel about it.
>
> The other big reveal -- Michael in Wife World prison meeting himself
> from Son World -- was actually not a reveal since stupid NBC showed it
> a week ago in the "next week on". There's a reason why I almost never
> watch those, but once in a while I slip up and I'm almost always
> sorry.

They're evil. The only reason why I would watch a trailer is if I had
already made up my mind to not watch the show, so my attitude would be,
"O.K., as a last-ditch chance, can you show me something to change my
mind?" If I've already decided to watch something, nothing good can
come of watching its trailer beforehand.

> While Harper was killing Kessel (again), I wondered how Michael could
> possibly know about the little bit of her heel that came off, but in
> light of the final reveal (below) that makes sense.

Creator Kyle Killen said that Michael would have seen the broken-off bit
of heel in the motel room in Son World (even though they didn't hang a
lantern on it by showing us Michael looking in the direction of the heel
tip or anything like that). His conscious mind did not notice at the
time, but his subconscious did. Afterwards, he heard the heel clicking
as she walked (also in Son World). His subconscious mind put two and
two together in the obvious fantasy sequence. Why his subconscious
mind chose to teach his conscious mind the lesson by using Vega in a
penguin suit was not similarly made clear (I appreciated the whimsy,
though), but they did play fair with the information gained in Son World
to yield the conclusion in the obvious fantasy sequence.

> The *big* reveal, of course, was that both Wife World and Son World
> were dreams.

I see where you've now read one of the interviews with Kyle Killen. I
hope this makes your second viewing of the episode more enjoyable.

> Michael laid the groundwork by asking Dr Evans, what if [Wife World]
> was a dream within a dream.

No, he asked if only the *surreal* parts were a dream. I.e., what if he
was in Wife World, fell asleep, and then instead of going back to Son
World, he dreamed an ordinary dream that contained Vega in a penguin
suit, Hannah appearing seemingly out of nowhere, and so forth. Since
Evans already considers Wife World to be a dream, she characterized this
idea as "a dream while dreaming."

> She dismissed that with "It's turtles all the way down" ...

I don't think she dismissed it so much as she just assumed, erroneously,
that Michael would share her desire to avoid an infinite regression of
dreams within dreams within dreams. She didn't gauge the true measure
of how much he wanted a way to escape bereavement in both his current
worlds, and the turtles showed him the way.

> ... (I know the story behind that phrase, but I'm not sure how it
> applies here) ...

The way I heard it, it was an apparently apocryphal ancient myth.

An acolyte asks his guru, "Master, what holds the world up?"

The guru answers, "The world rests on the back of a giant tiger."

So naturally the acolyte asks, "What does the tiger stand upon?"

"The tiger stands on the back of a giant elephant."

"And the elephant?"

"The elephant stands upon four giant turtles."

"But Master," says the acolyte, "what do the turtles stand upon?"

Replies the guru, "It's turtles all the way down."

If turtles can stand upon turtles that stand upon turtles into infinity
without ever having to stand on a final rock-solid foundation, then you
can dream a dream within a dream within a dream into infinity without
ever needing a rock-solid reality that they're all ultimately answerable
to.

> But "it was all a dream" feels like kind of a letdown because it's
> been used too much. /Dallas/ killed that gimmick once and for all,
> IMHO.

Fortunately, that's the one interpretation the creator rejects (although
the few who prefer it can claim it works too).

I've transcribed the final conversation between Michael and Dr. Evans,
and interleaved my commentary:

BRITTEN: I can't tell you how many cases I've closed. You know,
most of the time, you THINK it's the ex-boyfriend, it
IS the ex-boyfriend. Sometimes it's almost miraculous
how you untangle something, but either way, you feel
... I don't know, not satisfaction ... closure, I
guess.
EVANS: And this doesn't feel that way?
BRITTEN: No.
EVANS: How does it feel?
BRITTEN: Like it doesn't matter. I want a time machine.

Michael's heart's desire wasn't to close the case, but to be with his
family.

EVANS: As much as we, we often wish that life were otherwise,
it only moves in one direction. And the good news is,
you finally realize that this is life. It's not about
imaginary partners in penguin suits. You're letting
yourself see this other world for the dream that it's
always been. And that is an enormous step toward the
very closure that you're talking about.

Evans is saying that Michael should take the unreal scenes, such as Vega
in the penguin suit, as the reality check he needs to recognize Wife
World as just a dream.

BRITTEN: I don't -- I don't want closure with my family.

Michael has said this all along to both shrinks. He has no desire to
stop seeing either of his loved ones, despite both shrinks managing a
rare agreement that maintaining two realities is unhealthy for him.

EVANS: I believe that you'll find that allowing yourself to
invest fully in one real life is ultimately going to be
a richer experience than dividing yourself between two.

Michael isn't buying into this. He's looking for an escape hatch to
avoid accepting that Hannah is dead.

BRITTEN: What if I just had a dream?
EVANS: I don't follow.
BRITTEN: I mean, everything else feels real to me, right? Here
and there.

Michael seems to be forgetting the incident with Ricky's Tacos' speaker,
but most of the time, he's right. Most of the time, both of his worlds
have been far more logical and true to life than most of the dreams I've
had.

EVANS: Mm-hmm.
BRITTEN: Everything obeys all the laws of physics, logic, and
... Why can't I just ... have had ... a normal dream?

In other words, why can't just the bits that *don't* obey the laws of
physics and logic be genuine dreams, allowing him to continue to regard
as real everything else in both worlds that does obey physics and logic?

EVANS: Are you saying that, that you were having a dream while
you were dreaming? [Britten shrugs.]

In other words, from Evans' perspective, Michael is saying that he was
dreaming Wife World, and within that dream, he dreamed he fell
unconscious and dreamed Vega in a penguin suit and all that other stuff
that did not look real.

EVANS: Detective, the last time that you truly came face to
face with the fact that you had lost your wife, it
split your reality in two. And now you're on the verge
of remedying that. Now, the world with Hannah is a
dream. And you saw that. You know that. Hannah is
gone. And it's time to come back to living in one
world and not run off seeking a third.

Evans probably means here that the "world" in which Vega appeared in a
penguin suit is the third world that Michael should not seek, but it
also suggests that still other worlds could be found.

BRITTEN: I'm not seeking anything. I'm just saying, wh-who ...
Who knows the rules? Who's to say?

In other words, if I can force reality to give me back my wife and/or
child, why can't I force it to give me both of them at the same time?

EVANS: Help me to understand this. When you go home tonight,
go to bed, what do you expect to see?
BRITTEN: I don't know.
EVANS: And here I was thinking that, that we had taken a giant
step forward. Detective, I'm afraid it's just turtles
all the way down. If you could ... [She freezes.]

Evans was trying to get him to see the value in existing in just one
world, but they were talking past each other, since letting go of a
loved one was never his motivation. Once she admits that there's
nothing stopping the mind from dreaming a dream of a dream of a dream of
a dream of a dream of a dream ... all the way down, Michael's
subconscious knows exactly what it wants to do next.

BRITTEN: Doctor? [Evans' office door opens to Michael's
bedroom. He enters. The door shuts behind him. He
makes his way to his kitchen.]

I got the idea that once Michael realized that he could just choose the
reality he wanted, his subconscious created Intact Family World, where
the accident never happened, or if it did, everyone survived. He didn't
even have to go to bed and close his eyes to do it, nor did he have to
wake up from a dream to make the transition. Instead, he just walked
dream-like (as in countless dreams I've personally had) from Evans'
office into his upstairs bedroom at home. That's why I've had the
feeling ever since I saw it that instead of clicking his ruby slippers
together and waking up back in Kansas, he had created a third world, and
this one was *definitely* a dream.

I liked the ending a lot. I gather from reading the interviews with
Killen that he was less concerned with coming up with a definitive
answer to the metaphysical mystery than most of us were. Nevertheless,
he indicated that the creation of a third world was going to make things
harder for Michael in the second season.

I've felt that what kept the divided worlds from being a burden to
Michael in the first season was that they rarely hindered him from
fulfilling his responsibilities in either world, and usually helped him
instead. But if either Wife World or Son World was in fact real, and
the addition of Intact Family World led Michael to fail in some of his
responsibilities in the real world (because he simply didn't like the
other worlds as much as Intact Family World, or because he could no
longer function well on three separate fronts), then the spinoff worlds
would no longer be benign.

There's an intersection of ethics and epistemology: the immorality that
you may be permitting to flourish could be hiding behind that last
unasked question. If Michael lets down his real family or his real
coworkers or the real citizens of Los Angeles because he refuses to let
go of his dream family, then it's no longer a harmless indulgence.

-Micky

[Micky DuPree]

Spoilers for "Turtles All the Way Down."

.
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.

.

Arthur Lipscomb <art...@alum.calberkeley.org> writes:

> On 5/26/2012 1:02 AM, Micky DuPree wrote:

>> As for the concern that "it was all a dream" indicates that none of
>> it means anything, on the contrary, I've been impressed by the way
>> Michael's subconscious uses time in one world to come up with
>> information that is productive in the other world.
>
> Yeah but whatever was produced even if it benefited another dream
> world, is ultimately meaningless.

> [....]

> I don't have a problem with it all being a dream. I have a problem
> with it all being a pointless dream. Now if he woke up and we
> learned that the experience in the two dream worlds did have a
> *tangible* benefit in the real world I would see that as a positive.
> But as it is, the guy had a nightmare then woke up.

So you reject series creator Kyle Killen's interpretation that Michael
did *not* wake up at the end and everything was all right, but was
instead entering yet a third world that was going to create problems for
him in the second season?

-Micky

[Rick]

Here's a really interesting 10 minute interview with the actor who plays
Michael, Jason Isaacs (from the Harry Potter movies). Isaccs give his
impressions on the role and talks about how he rode with real-life police
officers to prepare for the part. You also see a brief snippet on the actual
filming of the accident scene.

http://tinyurl.com/c86euzu

And here's a shorter interview that includes the actors who play his son,
wife and the female therapist

http://tinyurl.com/75uzarl

[Dano]

"Micky DuPree" wrote in message news:jptddb$f2h$2...@pcls6.std.com...

============================================

I do. I'll interpret as I wish. The series is finished. He doesn't write
the story of my imagination. If he gets to write that story and produce
it...fine.

[Dano]

"Nancy R." wrote in message
news:v293s790ocafscbn2...@4ax.com...

============================================

I just got around to watching the last episode of Missing. Awful. Right
down to the ridiculous and gratuitous torture scene. Because everyone knows
an evil mercenary CIA mole will endure unspeakable pain and mutilation to
NOT talk. Absolutely no explanation of WHY. But just to emphasize the
extremes mom will go to for her son. Also one of the more ludicrous prison
escapes I've ever witnessed. Oh...and long lost dad left several dead
prison guards in his wake while breaking out, but the authorities at the end
are only interested in cuffing mom...for killing the big bad boss of the
whole international crime syndicate. Not even a sidelong mention of the
prison break. Stupid...stupid...stupid. I truly wish I hadn't wasted my
time on this crap.

[Rick]

Here's more detailed information on what the second season would have been.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/26/awake-finale-kyle-killen-burning-questions/

[EGK]

On Sun, 27 May 2012 11:58:10 -0400, "Rick" <ri...@nospam.com> wrote:

>
>Here's more detailed information on what the second season would have been.
>
>http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/26/awake-finale-kyle-killen-burning-questions/
>

As I said when I started the thread, I liked the finale and felt it gave
closure and left me think about it after it was over. What more can you ask
for?

On the other hand, I think this and other interviews point to one thing a
lot of people are growing to dislike about shows like this though. That is
they find out even the creators have no idea where a show is going to end
up. That seems to be the common approach in TV. They just making it up as
they go. While that works fine in some cases, I'd like to see some shows in
the future where they actually do have an outline or at least an idea to
work towards. I think audiences are growing tired of thinking they can find
clues to what's happening while watching a show. Only to find out it
really means nothing because there is nothing yet to be found.

[Rick]

"EGK" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:e1k4s7tr32vd1hcee...@4ax.com...

It's easy to understand, though, as the majority of concept shows like this
end up being cancelled after one season. Why put in a lot of time and
effort planning a 5 -6 season arc when you know you'll be lucky to last 13
episodes?

The one good thing about Awake was that the last episode was structured in
such a way that it could stand as a series finale. Think back to shows like
My Own Worst Enemy (which had a vaguely similar concept about a man
switching between two realities) which ended on a cliffhanger with no
resolution.

[EGK]

I get that but it shouldn't predlue them having some outline or at least an
idea of where the concept is heading. Things can still change if the series
goes on but I really think audiences are tiring of getting involved with
shows like this because they know none if it really means anything. I blame
a lot of that on LOST.

>The one good thing about Awake was that the last episode was structured in
>such a way that it could stand as a series finale. Think back to shows like
>My Own Worst Enemy (which had a vaguely similar concept about a man
>switching between two realities) which ended on a cliffhanger with no
>resolution.

I didn't watch that show but, like I said, I was happy with the way Awake
ended. Most shows don't get a heads up on cancellation while still
filming. The US version of Life on Mars is the only one I can think of
that got enough lead time to craft a final episode.

[Barnum]

On May 27, 11:32 am, "Rick" <r...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "EGK" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> news:e1k4s7tr32vd1hcee...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 27 May 2012 11:58:10 -0400, "Rick" <r...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >>Here's more detailed information on what the second season would have
> >>been.
>

> >>http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/26/awake-finale-kyle-killen-burning-qu...

>
> > As I said when I started the thread, I liked the finale and felt it gave
> > closure and left me think about it after it was over.  What more can you
> > ask
> > for?
>
> > On the other hand, I think this and other interviews point to one thing a
> > lot of people are growing to dislike about shows like this though.   That
> > is
> > they find out even the creators have no idea where a show is going to end
> > up.   That seems to be the common approach in TV.  They just making it up
> > as
> > they go.  While that works fine in some cases, I'd like to see some shows
> > in
> > the future where they actually do have an outline or at least an idea to
> > work towards.  I think audiences are growing tired of thinking they can
> > find
> > clues to what's happening while watching a show.   Only to find out it
> > really means nothing because there is nothing yet to be found.
>
> It's easy to understand, though, as the majority of concept shows like this
> end up being cancelled after one season.  Why put in a lot of time and
> effort planning a 5 -6 season arc when you know you'll be lucky to last 13
> episodes?

"Make it up as we go along" might have originally had basis as a
strategy for avoiding the damage that plot-leaks into the public would
cause (can't spoil an ending or explanation that has not been
formulated yet). But it allowed the freedom to toss everything but the
kitchen sink into a developing story, with either no means available
or a responsible conscience available for tying-up such arbitrarily-
introduced strands in the end.

But primarily, it eventually enabled the soap trend in TV speculative
fiction that "the characters and their issues" are more important than
the general story concept which they're embedded in. Still better than
the "Lost in Space" stuff of the past that cared neither about "things
hanging together coherently" or more realistic people; but
nevertheless we feel cheated of something in the middle of the two.

[Mason Barge]

On Sun, 27 May 2012 11:54:26 +0800, Nancy R. <nran...@comcast.nospam>
wrote:

The mere fact that it was the conclusion was very satisfying.

[Ian J. Ball]

On May 27, 11:41 am, Mason Barge <masonba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 11:54:26 +0800, Nancy R. <nranda...@comcast.nospam>

> wrote:
> >On Fri, 25 May 2012 14:46:37 -0700, "Ian J. Ball"

> ><ijball-NO_S...@mac.invalid> wrote:

> >> Nancy R. <nranda...@comcast.nospam> wrote:
>
> >>> Good to hear it! A couple of weeks ago I asked about Awake and
> >>> Missing, now I'll definitely watch Awake, but delete Missing off my
> >>> DVR. Thanks!
>
> >>That's throwing the baby out with the bath water.  :(
>
> >I'm afraid there's just so much time I have for TV, and just so much
> >space on the DVR. :(
>
> >>"Missing" was worth watching on its own merits - at worst, you could
> >>just stop the final episode at the point where Ashley Judd goes off to
> >>get the car (about 30 seconds before the end of the finale episode), and
> >>you'd be totally fine.
>
> >I've already deleted all the episodes, but out of curiosity, does
> >"you'd be totally fine" mean the series had a self-contained ending
> >and satisfying conclusion? Apart from the last 30 seconds, that is.
>
> The mere fact that it was the conclusion was very satisfying.

Mean... :/

[Adam H. Kerman]

Micky DuPree <MDu...@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:

>Spoilers for "Turtles All the Way Down."

>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.

>I liked the ending a lot. I gather from reading the interviews with
>Killen that he was less concerned with coming up with a definitive
>answer to the metaphysical mystery than most of us were. Nevertheless,
>he indicated that the creation of a third world was going to make things
>harder for Michael in the second season.

Micky, I enjoyed reading what you got out of the episode more than what
I got out of it.

I didn't care for parts of the dream worlds because it felt like
Michael was manipulating it himself, especially the convenient killing
of Kevin Weisman with minimal consequences.

One fun part was one psychiatrist telling the other psychiatrist that
Michael's been giving himself superior therapy with an imagined
psychiatrist. That was hysterical.

I didn't find the happy dream ending satisfying. I wonder what happened
to Rex's pregnant girlfriend in that dream.

I would have found Michael in the empty house quite satisfying, though.

[EGK]

On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 07:03:18 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
wrote:

>Micky DuPree <MDu...@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>
>>Spoilers for "Turtles All the Way Down."
>
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>
>>I liked the ending a lot. I gather from reading the interviews with
>>Killen that he was less concerned with coming up with a definitive
>>answer to the metaphysical mystery than most of us were. Nevertheless,
>>he indicated that the creation of a third world was going to make things
>>harder for Michael in the second season.
>
>Micky, I enjoyed reading what you got out of the episode more than what
>I got out of it.
>
>I didn't care for parts of the dream worlds because it felt like
>Michael was manipulating it himself, especially the convenient killing
>of Kevin Weisman with minimal consequences.

I was wondering if they might have gone further with that in a second
season. That is had Michael lucid dreaming but the show's creator said no
to that in one of the interviews I think.

[Bob(but not THAT Bob)]

Me too - especially since Michael's evil Capt. said to the other evil
Capt. something like "did you have to kill his whole family?" earlier in
the season.