BB: Strong versus Weak contestants
Stark
of what it means to be strong or weak are all switched around.
William and Jordan, both young, attractive, aggressive,
competitive, and both the first to get voted out.
George: middle aged, not that bright or attractive, totally
nonaggressive and non competitive, and nobody votes against
him. He's many people's favorite, although perhaps described as
boring.
The secret to success on BB and other such shows: don't fight
with anyone, don't stand out, and get a few people strongly on
your side.
William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
He was playing an entirely different game, one that existed only
within his own head. Everyone else was playing poker, and he
sat at the same table calling out "go fish!" and "you sank my
battleship!" and "yahtzee!". He may have won the games he
played in his head, but he lost all his poker chips.
-----------------------------------------------------------
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J. S.
> William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
> he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
And those rules required him to be a castrated black men
smiling and grinning for Master, the kind of
black man America is comfortable with.
> He was playing an entirely different game, one that existed only
> within his own head.
His game included a rule that he would not lose his
dignity and self respect. He may have been blunt and somewhat
combative, but that was not the reason he got lynched off the
show. Because, otherwise, Eddie and Brittany would be
voted out, too.
The game that existed in his own head was very much arising out
of the racist conditions created by much of the household.
> Everyone else was playing poker, and he
> sat at the same table calling out "go fish!" and "you sank my
> battleship!" and "yahtzee!". He may have won the games he
> played in his head, but he lost all his poker chips.
Because he doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was mistakenly
put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show.
James R
>> Everyone else was playing poker, and he
>> sat at the same table calling out "go fish!" and "you sank my
>> battleship!" and "yahtzee!". He may have won the games he
>> played in his head, but he lost all his poker chips.
>
>Because he doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was mistakenly
>put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show.
>
>
Damn right. And that is the way it should be. I'm sure CBS was sorry they
picked William. William's probable alternate was 'a gentle giant' according
to the housemates.
I like my blacks on TV docile. Bryant Gumble is my type of black guy.
Although he is maybe a little too hardcore. Greg Gumble is perfect. He likes
the white man.
kukla
" J. S." wrote:
>
> Stark <starkN...@foxinternet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
> > he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
>
> And those rules required him to be a castrated black men
> smiling and grinning for Master, the kind of
> black man America is comfortable with.
If he's circumsized, that's a real plus.
> > He was playing an entirely different game, one that existed only
> > within his own head.
>
> His game included a rule that he would not lose his
> dignity and self respect. He may have been blunt and somewhat
> combative, but that was not the reason he got lynched off the
> show. Because, otherwise, Eddie and Brittany would be
> voted out, too.
Sure, being cooperative and polite is what would really bring him down.
Not the Man. Oh no.
> The game that existed in his own head was very much arising out
> of the racist conditions created by much of the household.
>
> > Everyone else was playing poker, and he
> > sat at the same table calling out "go fish!" and "you sank my
> > battleship!" and "yahtzee!". He may have won the games he
> > played in his head, but he lost all his poker chips.
>
> Because he doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was mistakenly
> put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show.
Just like America's hero, Kenny Rogers said, "You gotta know when to
hold 'em, know when to fold 'em." William, however, was playing Go Fish
or something.
Modru
>Stark <starkN...@foxinternet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
>> he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
>
>And those rules required him to be a castrated black men
>smiling and grinning for Master, the kind of
>black man America is comfortable with.
If Mega was THAT racially sensitive,then why did he sign up to go on
the show in the first place??. He KNEW that he would be shut in with a
bunch of white folk. I agree that he was playing the wrong game and I
think him a fool for not using his intelligence to win the game.
.
tony...@my-deja.com
" J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote:
> "he [Will] doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was mistakenly
> put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show."
Doesn't the fact no one (NOT ONE) voted against Cassandra disprove your
theory in a heartbeat?
- TonyXave
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
lks4
> In article <8le2ep$o9e$1...@news3.bu.edu>,
> " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote:
> > "he [Will] doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was
> mistakenly
> > put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show."
> Doesn't the fact no one (NOT ONE) voted against Cassandra disprove
> your
> theory in a heartbeat?
> - TonyXave
Casandra = Aunt Jemima v.2K; she'll be one of the last to go.
Billy Boy just didn't want to play the Game. He could have masked
his personality for the household and revealed his strategy in the red
room, thus preserving his "dignity".
The implications for BB re: anti-privacy propaganda are enormous,
but Jordan's "cat in heat" strategy is intriguing. ;))
Lancebowski
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Kathy
> Stark <starkN...@foxinternet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
> > he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
>
> And those rules required him to be a castrated black men
> smiling and grinning for Master, the kind of
> black man America is comfortable with.
The kind of MAN America is comfortable with. How about Andrew Dice
Clay? another person who speaks his mind no matter what people think.
He had a claque of idiot fans like himself for a while, but most people
rejected his brand of "truth".
>
>
> > He was playing an entirely different game, one that existed only
> > within his own head.
>
> His game included a rule that he would not lose his
> dignity and self respect. He may have been blunt and somewhat
> combative, but that was not the reason he got lynched off the
> show. Because, otherwise, Eddie and Brittany would be
> voted out, too.
It is exactly why he got voted off the show. Eddie and Brittany were
only
combative with him - if they start behaving this way with most of the
others, they
will go soon too.
>
>
> The game that existed in his own head was very much arising out
> of the racist conditions created by much of the household.
>
> > Everyone else was playing poker, and he
> > sat at the same table calling out "go fish!" and "you sank my
> > battleship!" and "yahtzee!". He may have won the games he
> > played in his head, but he lost all his poker chips.
>
> Because he doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was mistakenly
> put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show.
How insulting to William and Cassandra to be called tokens. Will was
quite
proud of the fact that he was chosen over so many people. I wonder what
you'd be saying now if there had been NO blacks chosen? There are lots
of strong, proud black men with dignity (and balls, BTW) who wouldn't
think of behaving like William. And there are plenty of white guys who
are exactly
like him. Cassandra was right : Will could have been the leader in the
house,
but he chose a different route. She told him "time and time again" to
try
and be more congenial. She knew that and still blamed racism for
his ouster. It sounds like a big cop-out to me. The rest of us have to
take
responsibility for our own bad behavior and failures. Since we learn
the most from
our mistakes, how do people who blame racism for everything that doesn't
go their way, ever learn anything about themselves?
Kathy
Randy
> Stark <starkN...@foxinternet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
> > he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
>
> And those rules required him to be a castrated black men
> smiling and grinning for Master, the kind of
> black man America is comfortable with.
Just because you continually repeat this does not make it true.
>
> > He was playing an entirely different game, one that existed only
> > within his own head.
>
> His game included a rule that he would not lose his
> dignity and self respect. He may have been blunt and somewhat
> combative, but that was not the reason he got lynched off the
> show. Because, otherwise, Eddie and Brittany would be
> voted out, too.
Well, BB is a game and part of winning involves compromising ones
principles, maybe lying or doing what you may not do outside of
the house. It's a game and Will chsoe to play to lose, not to win.
>
> The game that existed in his own head was very much arising out
> of the racist conditions created by much of the household.
>
> > Everyone else was playing poker, and he
> > sat at the same table calling out "go fish!" and "you sank my
> > battleship!" and "yahtzee!". He may have won the games he
> > played in his head, but he lost all his poker chips.
>
> Because he doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was mistakenly
> put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show.
Seems to me 20% black is fairly representaive of the population.
Teddi Litman
" J. S." wrote:
> Stark <starkN...@foxinternet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
> > he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
>
> And those rules required him to be a castrated black men
> smiling and grinning for Master, the kind of
> black man America is comfortable with.
It's interesting that you equate the lack of testicles with being
a passive, stupid slave with no dignity or respect.
Machismo is as much a factor here as race. One must
always at all costs "Be a MAN!" Certain men who
aren't REAL MEN need to get them some testosterone.
Teddi
Rick in LA
Junior <gojunior@mail-.com> wrote in message
news:mrjmnsgph1dd1foge...@4ax.com...
> Kathy <kb...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>
> >How insulting to William and Cassandra to be called tokens. Will was
> >quite
> >proud of the fact that he was chosen over so many people. I wonder what
>
> Will's idiotic and anti-social behavior.
I'd love to see that article.
Rick in LA
Junior <gojunior@mail-.com> wrote in message
> "Rick in LA" <ri...@flashcomspamfree.net> wrote:
>
> >> One newspaper I read said that the black folks in Philly were crying
over
> >> Will's idiotic and anti-social behavior.
> >
> >I'd love to see that article.
>
Thanks, I'll check.
>
J. S.
>
>> > William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
>> > he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
>>
>> And those rules required him to be a castrated black men
>> smiling and grinning for Master, the kind of
>> black man America is comfortable with.
> It's interesting that you equate the lack of testicles with being
> a passive, stupid slave with no dignity or respect.
> Machismo is as much a factor here as race. One must
> always at all costs "Be a MAN!" Certain men who
> aren't REAL MEN need to get them some testosterone.
No, actually I based that phrasing on historical patterns and the
whole issue of seuality as it relates to race in America.
Before lynching, black men were often castrated. If you look up the
detailed studies of sexuality in the race context, one of the
most depply ingrained white fear is that of a black man with a
white women, sexually.
That is why America hates any black man "with balls" -- so to speak ==
and the only blacks who have been accepted have been the sexually
harmless ones, and intelelctually harmless (read inferior) ones.
How come there are black comdians, but no black Mel Gibsons or
Tom Cruises doing all those stunts in movies and giving incredible
orgasms to the beautiful actresses? All prominent black figures
are sexually 'harmless' -- hence 'castrated.'
I was not being facetious or bitter in using that expression. It is
a very significant thread in this country's history. Most of America,
owever, is extremely uncomfortable even thinking about it.
Malcolm X, one of the most perceptive (and experienced) observers on
race in America points out the sexual aspect as one of the
"two greatest fears of white man."
This is not the place to give a detailed description, and I am sure
others here could do a better job of explaining it, but it
is an extremely significant issue. In my personal experience I have
detected (and sometimes seen expressed explicitly) in several
individuals too.
As was mentioned earlier, raping (or even being accused of raping) a
white woman was enough reason to get a black man lynched. Castration
often preceded it.
That's the way America likes its black men.
J. S.
> In article <8le2ep$o9e$1...@news3.bu.edu>,
> " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote:
>> "he [Will] doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was mistakenly
>> put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show."
> Doesn't the fact no one (NOT ONE) voted against Cassandra disprove your
> theory in a heartbeat?
Several people seem to have misunderstood this sentence. Perhaps I should
have said it better (I dunno how, though).
1. That he was put in the show was a mistake on the part of CBS.
2. CBS either did not know exactly who WIll was (and after being
voted out he has been quoted as saying that CBS didn't ask the
"right questions" that would have revealed to them who he was),
or, CBS took a risk and regeretted it soon after the show began.
Both of thses are mistakes.
3. Since the mistake had already been made, the safest way to solve
the problem was to get him voted out ASAP. That is exactly what
CBS did by getting America mad at him (just read the comments
on this NG, and look at the vote percentages). Even before
the nominations, many people here detected the setting up of
Will and PREDICTED things much in advance. In very specific ways.
So, as far as understanding what is going on and predicting what would
happen, it doesn't get any better than the example of Will. Maybe
there will be more blatant examples in the future nominations, examples
of CBS setting peeople up, but that doesn't invalidate the analysis
and predictions about WIll's case that had been made on this ng and
I am sure elsewhere too.
As for as "Why wasn;t Cassandra a mistake according to your logic,"
argument, Cassandra exactly proves the point. She is exactly what
America wants blacks to be, although she has shown occasional
"unacceptable" behavior (like saying, after banishment, "He's a black
man, who would vote for him?" and "I told him that he would never
get away with getting into a white woman's face like that" (ref. to the
episode where Brittany threw a tantrum and cried over the whole
deal about her Black "friend.")
Cassandra is exactly the kind of Black person that is palatable to America.
THAT is why putting her on the show was not a mistake. Not putting
a few token (acceptable) blacks would actually be a mistake, because
that would leave CBS open to attacks from all sorts of angles.
Will wasn't Cassandra. As he told Cass, he would never make the
kind of compromises she suggested he make. He clearly told
her, "Cassandra, I am not WIll Smith... that's the difference."
America likes Blacks like Bryant Gumbel. And Will rolled his eyes
when told that Gumbel would interview him.
It is disheartening to see people unable to see pretty obvious
things and then go on giving fantastic arguments. It is denial
in my understanding. It is also so feeble and pathetic an
attempt to reconcile the huge moral contradictions of this society.
Such a reconciliation attempt as these arguments and explanations
will never work, and the problem will continue to fester.
J. S.
> If Mega was THAT racially sensitive,then why did he sign up to go on
> the show in the first place??. He KNEW that he would be shut in with a
> bunch of white folk. I agree that he was playing the wrong game and I
> think him a fool for not using his intelligence to win the game.
> .
He wanted to prove the point, perhaps? Perhaps he was hpoing for
the 1-in-a-million chance to come true. Everyone ha shopes.
He can hardly be called a fool for trying. He is a fool in the eyes
of those who didn't want him there in the first place.
"Blame the victim." -- It's a classic phenomenon.
Rick in LA
J. S. <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
news:8lftm8$o0v$2...@news3.bu.edu...
"Claim victimhood" -- Not as classic but MUCH more prevalent. And did I
mention "annoying"?
Rick in LA
> tony...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8le2ep$o9e$1...@news3.bu.edu>,
> > " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote:
[ABRIDGED]
> 3. Since the mistake had already been made, the safest way to solve
> the problem was to get him voted out ASAP. That is exactly what
> CBS did by getting America mad at him (just read the comments
> on this NG, and look at the vote percentages). Even before
> the nominations, many people here detected the setting up of
> Will and PREDICTED things much in advance. In very specific ways.
[ABRIDGED]
Okay, everyone, I think it's my turn to do this. *sigh* CBS didn't get
America mad at Hiram, Hiram got America mad at Hiram. The actions,
attitudes and words aired were his. Oddly, Hiram, his father,his sister and
his girlfriend all seem to have accepted this though you're having some
problems with the concept.
Now then...I PREDICT that you will take issue with this evaluation, despite
the facts, by continuing to cite socio-sexual politics, historic wrongs
committed against the Black people and by tossing the word "lynch" around as
though it were "how do you do?" This will PROVE conclusively that you have
an anti-white racist agenda.
Teddi Litman
" J. S." wrote:
>
>
> How come there are black comdians, but no black Mel Gibsons or
> Tom Cruises doing all those stunts in movies and giving incredible
> orgasms to the beautiful actresses?
Will Smith. Wesley Snipes. Samuel L. Jackson.
Eddie Murphy is *both* a comedian and a leading man. Sidney
Poitier. I wouldn't call any of these men sexually neutered.
> All prominent black figures
> are sexually 'harmless' -- hence 'castrated.'
Bull! There are tons of black celebrities with sex appeal.
I'm sick of seeing you put down Cassandra as wanting
to "castrate" William and being a weak "house Negro" who
has betrayed her own race. There's a history of strong, independant
successful women being accused of betraying men or wanting
to castrate them for daring to criticize men or suggesting there
are better ways to do things. God forbid a mere woman might
have a better idea. Cassandra was *unfavorably*
compared to Oprah a while back. Oprah was painted as
a sell out, a race traitor, someone white people don't see
as black. To that I say bull again! Every *woman* who
respects and admires Oprah sees her as a woman with
an extremely strong black identity. She's a "sell-out" for
being independent and widely financially successful in a
man's world. Black *men* accuse her of betraying
her heritage because she supports the work of
black *women* writers like Alice Walker
and Toni Morrison who dare criticize black men as
well as the white establishment.
>
>
>
> As was mentioned earlier, raping (or even being accused of raping) a
> white woman was enough reason to get a black man lynched.
White men historically have been more interested in the mistreatment
of women if it has come from a group outside themselves. Black
men are the same way. They are allowed to do whatever they
want with their own women. Oprah has also been criticized
for going public with the fact that she was sexually abused
by a family member, a black man. That's betrayal! She should keep quiet
about mistreatment of women by men within her own
cultural group. Even though it's true, it ultimately
hurts "the cause." The attitude of men is to fix the
problems between different groups (whether they be
separated by race, religion, culture, nation or whatever)
first and deal with the "internal" problems with gender
and family after the "more important" struggle is over.
That attitude is ass-backwards.
Teddi
>
o...@radiu.com
intelligent black woman as Aunt Jemima.
I assume you would also label an intelligent, successful, well-spoken
black male as an Uncle Tom.
I hope you are not black. If you are it is simply a tragedy that you
would demean those who should be role-models.
On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:53:03 -0700, lks4 <lk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <8legef$ld0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tony...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> In article <8le2ep$o9e$1...@news3.bu.edu>,
>> " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote:
>> > "he [Will] doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was
>> mistakenly
>> > put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show."
>> Doesn't the fact no one (NOT ONE) voted against Cassandra disprove
>> your
>> theory in a heartbeat?
The One
" J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
news:8le2ep$o9e$1...@news3.bu.edu...
> Stark <starkN...@foxinternet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > William, by the way, lost not because he was black, but because
> > he broke all the rules he'd have needed to follow to survive.
>
> And those rules required him to be a castrated black men
> smiling and grinning for Master, the kind of
> black man America is comfortable with.
>
> > He was playing an entirely different game, one that existed only
> > within his own head.
>
> His game included a rule that he would not lose his
> dignity and self respect. He may have been blunt and somewhat
> combative, but that was not the reason he got lynched off the
> show. Because, otherwise, Eddie and Brittany would be
> voted out, too.
>
*snip*
The point of the game is to win. Take Richard or Susan on Survivor(Please!
;) ). These people abandoned integrity and self respect a long time ago.
They're doing what they think is necessary to win the game. That includes
being a phony, lying sack of shit. You gotta play the game to win. Notice
BrittME's two-faced games. Eddie is not two faced but I have a feeling he
will soon be voted out. Anyway, my point is that if William wanted to
maintain his dignity, he had to know that winning the game was doubtful. It
all depends on what you value more: having the skill to manipulate people to
win or maintaining your integrity. Btw, it's not a matter of him possibly
being blunt and combative, he WAS blunt and combative, moreso than BrittME
and Eddie, though I'm sure that will change.
Regina
--
The Wild Wild William Baldwin Homepage:
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/williambaldwin
The William Baldwin Fan Club:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/williambaldwinfanclub
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change...
The One
" J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
news:8lfsio$n3v$1...@news3.bu.edu...
> How come there are black comdians, but no black Mel Gibsons or
> Tom Cruises doing all those stunts in movies and giving incredible
> orgasms to the beautiful actresses? All prominent black figures
> are sexually 'harmless' -- hence 'castrated.'
>
Did you not see 'Enemy of the State'? Will Smith saves the day, doing many
stunts and looks great doing it.
lks4
> I find it amusing that you would label a successful, well-spoken
> and
> intelligent black woman as Aunt Jemima.
> I assume you would also label an intelligent, successful,
> well-spoken
> black male as an Uncle Tom.
> I hope you are not black. If you are it is simply a tragedy that
> you
> would demean those who should be role-models.
I find it amusing that you refuse to differentiate "the real world"
from a game show environment. It's not "BB: Be Yourself". It's "BB:
Cutthroat".
From her bio, Cass is all you claim. In the encounters with Will,
she arguably slipped into a quasi- Aunt Jemima role, and I expect to
see docility from her in the weeks to come.
Good lord! I'm not judging Cassandra; I'm judging "Cassandra"! In
order to win the, ahem, competition, the housemates are going to be
wearing mask upon mask, faking alliances, faking personalities and
anything else they can come up with to gain an edge.
BB is a classic study in psychological warfare; it's impossible to
draw conclusions about the participants' true philosophies from the
supplied bios and on-show behaviors.
Thus, my tag on Cass of "Aunt Jemima" was, in context, quite fair.
I'm guessing that's the gambit she chose in an attempt to win. Your
insults were unwarranted..but no problem. :)
Lancebowski
Member: WWF School of Ballet
T
Teddi Litman wrote:
>It's interesting that you equate the lack of testicles
>with being a passive, stupid slave with no dignity or
>respect.
Niggers grow up in a culture that respects fighting and
physical violence. Niggers grow up fighting.
marc0ni
who >wouldn't think of behaving like William.
Agreed, I've met them. One of them was even in the Nation of Islam, a
challenge to my preconceptions about black militancy. There are a lot of
strong, proud black men who have interests ranging far beyond
discussions of race and nothing but race.
Marina
:
: Casandra = Aunt Jemima v.2K; she'll be one of the last to go.
:
: Billy Boy just didn't want to play the Game. He could have masked
: his personality for the household and revealed his strategy in the red
: room, thus preserving his "dignity".
:
: The implications for BB re: anti-privacy propaganda are enormous,
: but Jordan's "cat in heat" strategy is intriguing. ;))
:
:
: Lancebowski
:
I think they should have cancelled the game and redid it.
When Will was there, he was a fish out of water. It may have been a
more realistic portrait of how a young black man from the streets
reacts to "white folk." It could have gotten interesting during the
oncoming weeks.
I think Jordan should have been banished and she could have
gone on to the Letterman Show. At this point, people are bored
with her and I don't know if she will get her 15 minutes of fame. We
know too much about her already and it's just plain boring. If she
would have left last week, I think she actually would have done better
with a future career in front of the camera. I'm sure Howard Stern,
though, will love to have her and Brittany on his show.
Marina
Marina
: :
: : Casandra = Aunt Jemima v.2K; she'll be one of the last to go.
: :
: : Billy Boy just didn't want to play the Game. He could have masked
: : his personality for the household and revealed his strategy in the red
: : room, thus preserving his "dignity".
: :
: : The implications for BB re: anti-privacy propaganda are enormous,
: : but Jordan's "cat in heat" strategy is intriguing. ;))
: :
: :
: : Lancebowski
I think Jordan should have been banished and she could have
: gone on to the Letterman Show. At this point, people are bored
: with her and I don't know if she will get her 15 minutes of fame. We
: know too much about her already and it's just plain boring. If she
: would have left last week, I think she actually would have done better
: with a future career in front of the camera. I'm sure Howard Stern,
though, will love to have her and Brittany on his show.
Then they could restructure the show and now Will, a fish out of water,
would be Big Brother. Nine contestants would see who could go the
longest living with Mega. I think this show would be much more
interesting and may give a better portrait of a young black man
and others living with those outside of their own culture.
tony...@my-deja.com
" J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote:
[snip]
> Cassandra is exactly the kind of Black person that is palatable to
America.
> THAT is why putting her on the show was not a mistake. Not putting
> a few token (acceptable) blacks would actually be a mistake, because
> that would leave CBS open to attacks from all sorts of angles.
>
[snip]
Palatable to Black and White America alike.
Did you ever listen to Chris Rock's monologue "Blacks vs Niggas"?
Surely Chris did not do that routine solely for the amusement of white
audiences. He likely did it because nobody likes the behavior of any
person (regardless of color)who doesn't do the best job of trying to
better themselves and fit into society as best they can. Cassandra fits
well, Will does not fit as well as Cassandra. That he holds a job and
seems educated I would definitely say he is a responsible black man,
but his inability to adapt well to a group environment (consisting of
blacks and whites in the same proportions as the population of America)
indicates he has a way to go before he attains the smooth edges of
Cassandra's personality. Will is a bit wet behind the ears in this
regard and it shows too well. This is why he was booted out. He doesn't
fit in as well as Jordan does.
Unfortunately voters only had two choices. If Will
had played the game more skillfully, perhaps choosing George, Curtis,
Josh, Eddie, or Cassandra as his primary confidant (rather than Jordan)
it is VERY LIKELY Will and Jordan would not have been nominated in
the first round. The focus would have shifted to whiney Karen and
grumpy Eddie instead (and not wanting to pick on a cripple, Karen would
be off the show now rather than Will). My vote helped keep Jordan on
the show, but given ANY other choice I would have picked Will to stay.
JVV4sm
>> Tom Cruises doing all those stunts in movies and giving incredible
>> orgasms to the beautiful actresses?
>
>Eddie Murphy is *both* a comedian and a leading man. Sidney
>Poitier. I wouldn't call any of these men sexually neutered.
BTW, Samuel L Jackson has been mentioning in his "Shaft" interviews that he has
never had a sex scene, and the one written for "Shaft" was dropped. He really
wants his first sex scene in the next "Shaft" movie.
J. S.
> Did you not see 'Enemy of the State'? Will Smith saves the day, doing many
> stunts and looks great doing it.
Yeah, but he never gets any, if you know what I mean. Tom Cruise does.
J. S.
>> How come there are black comdians, but no black Mel Gibsons or
>> Tom Cruises doing all those stunts in movies and giving incredible
>> orgasms to the beautiful actresses?
> Will Smith. Wesley Snipes. Samuel L. Jackson.
> Eddie Murphy is *both* a comedian and a leading man. Sidney
> Poitier. I wouldn't call any of these men sexually neutered.
The point was in the "and..." part. I am capitalizing it to make
it clear.
Tom Cruises doing all those stunts in movies AND giving incredible
orgasms to the beautiful actresses?
Show me where Will Smith and Sam Jackson suck Sharon Stone's tits
or make love to any of the topnotch Hollywood actresses, in a movie.
How convenient everyone's forgetting the main point, the sexual part,
of the discussion.
J. S.
> has betrayed her own race. There's a history of strong, independant
> successful women being accused of betraying men or wanting
> to castrate them for daring to criticize men or suggesting there
> are better ways to do things. God forbid a mere woman might
> have a better idea. Cassandra was *unfavorably*
And that's where it ends. There is little history of strong
independent and successfulblack men. Women such as Oprah
are cases in point. America is much more comfortable with
such women and would rather have lots of them than have the
black men become anything like that.
No matter how many of such black women exist, they cannot
compensate for the fact that black men are denied any such
prominence, particularly in the sexual domain. When was the
last time you saw a black Fabio?
The history of sexuality in the context of race in America is
extremely fascinating, because it shows very clearly the
psychoilogical defenses and replacements and substitutes tha
have been adopted and -- as you show in your examples -- touted
by America. These substitutes are palatable and easy to
live with, and also provide a convenient smokescreen.
So let's not be distracted by the part about women. I do not
dispute the identity etc of Oprah et al. I am trying to
talk about men. Let's stick to that.
Show me a strong black figure who's not 'neutered' -- the exceptions
have usually been cut down. Malcolm X is a case in point. For further
details, read the eulogy of Ossie Davis at the funeral of malcolm.
He talks about Malcolm being the living, black manhood. And <Malcolm
was not an exception. He was an example of the pattern. He did not
back down or agree to be 'castrated' and he got cut down. Same happened
to numerous others.
( See http://www.google.com/search?q=ossie+malcolm+X+eulogy&meta=lr%3D%26hl%3Den
for the Ossie Davis's Malcolm eulogy).
> compared to Oprah a while back. Oprah was painted as
> a sell out, a race traitor, someone white people don't see
> as black. To that I say bull again! Every *woman* who
> respects and admires Oprah sees her as a woman with
> an extremely strong black identity. She's a "sell-out" for
> being independent and widely financially successful in a
> man's world. Black *men* accuse her of betraying
> her heritage because she supports the work of
> black *women* writers like Alice Walker
> and Toni Morrison who dare criticize black men as
> well as the white establishment.
All this has nothing to do with the point about blackmen
being required to be neutered to become palatable to America,
unlike white men (Tom cruise example again). Therefore,
I will not go into your comments above. They are relevant
in a secondary fashion only, which cannot be discussed without
discussing the primary issue that I've been arguing about.
J. S.
>>> How come there are black comdians, but no black Mel Gibsons or
>>> Tom Cruises doing all those stunts in movies and giving incredible
>>> orgasms to the beautiful actresses?
>>
>>Will Smith. Wesley Snipes. Samuel L. Jackson.
>>Eddie Murphy is *both* a comedian and a leading man. Sidney
>>Poitier. I wouldn't call any of these men sexually neutered.
> BTW, Samuel L Jackson has been mentioning in his "Shaft" interviews that he has
> never had a sex scene, and the one written for "Shaft" was dropped. He really
> wants his first sex scene in the next "Shaft" movie.
I wonder if it'll be with Winona Ryder.
J. S.
Show me some in the mainstream cultural establishment (read Hollywood).
The people you are talking about are either unknown individuals or
known mostly within the black community (and more likely than not
despised in the mainstream america in most cases).
I will agree to your claims the day I see on of the well known
actors start getting it on with actreses of all sorts (black, white, etc)
on the movie screens, like the Tom Cruises, Michael Douglases
and Sylvester Stallones of this world do.
Stick to the points, please, everyone.
J. S.
> well, Will does not fit as well as Cassandra. That he holds a job and
> seems educated I would definitely say he is a responsible black man,
> but his inability to adapt well to a group environment (consisting of
> blacks and whites in the same proportions as the population of America)
> indicates he has a way to go before he attains the smooth edges of
> Cassandra's personality. Will is a bit wet behind the ears in this
Hey, that is the whole point. that is what he explained to Cass
time and again, that he will not -- to use my words -- agree
to be castrated. He will not become palatable if it requires
him to suppress and banish his own manhood and
self respect.
> Unfortunately voters only had two choices. If Will
> had played the game more skillfully, perhaps choosing George, Curtis,
> Josh, Eddie, or Cassandra as his primary confidant (rather than Jordan)
> it is VERY LIKELY Will and Jordan would not have been nominated in
> the first round. The focus would have shifted to whiney Karen and
> grumpy Eddie instead (and not wanting to pick on a cripple, Karen would
> be off the show now rather than Will). My vote helped keep Jordan on
> the show, but given ANY other choice I would have picked Will to stay.
That is precisely the point. Why would he be more accpetable if he
had chosen one of the other people with whom his relationship
would be palatable. I am not surprised to see Jamie's name in
your suggested allies for Will.
One of the big reasons that it was not acceptable to America the
way Will was behaving was because he was close to Jordan. That is
something this racist society has never tolerated. Jordan is
a beautiful young white woman. The Jordan-Will mix (all those
massages) infuriates America. It drives America mad like a lynchmob.
All the arguments people have given here demonstrate exactly what
they are supposed to be refuting. Don't you see the suggestions for
helping Will stay on the show demonstrate exactly what he was
protesting against, things like "I will not be Will Smith."
J. S.
> Thus, my tag on Cass of "Aunt Jemima" was, in context, quite fair.
> I'm guessing that's the gambit she chose in an attempt to win. Your
> insults were unwarranted..but no problem. :)
Lancebowski, you're absolutely right.
Randy
> When was the
> last time you saw a black Fabio?
Tyson Beckford (sp?)
J. S.
> Tyson Beckford (sp?)
Who's he? Just a fashion model. How many romance novel
covers he's graced like Fabio? And let's not get stuck
with the example of Fabio alone. Tom Cruise,
harrison Ford, Michael Douglas, mel Gibson, John Travolta,
Bruce Willis, Tom hanks...the whole stretch...
Samuel L jackson is very much a castrated black actor.
He shoots guns and shouts, but never gets to fuck a
comely actress on screen, and make her moan and groan
like the Tom Cruises of Hollywood do.
Let's see what turns up in the sex scene he seems to be
anticipating in a future movie -- his first.
J. S.
> I
>>> Everyone else was playing poker, and he
>>> sat at the same table calling out "go fish!" and "you sank my
>>> battleship!" and "yahtzee!". He may have won the games he
>>> played in his head, but he lost all his poker chips.
>>
>>Because he doesn't belong in America's poker game. He was mistakenly
>>put there by CBS as part of their token Blacks on the show.
>>
>>
> Damn right. And that is the way it should be. I'm sure CBS was sorry they
> picked William. William's probable alternate was 'a gentle giant' according
> to the housemates.
> I like my blacks on TV docile. Bryant Gumble is my type of black guy.
> Although he is maybe a little too hardcore. Greg Gumble is perfect. He likes
> the white man.
No problem, james. Your honesty is appreciated.
J. S.
> I think they should have cancelled the game and redid it.
This comment reveals exactly the attitude of America
about blacks. Only docile, smiling and grinning "yes, massa'"
blacks are welcome. Self-respecting blacks need not apply.
> When Will was there, he was a fish out of water. It may have been a
> more realistic portrait of how a young black man from the streets
> reacts to "white folk." It could have gotten interesting during the
> oncoming weeks.
Wrong. William is used to "white folk." it was the "white folk"
who were not used to the black people like William (they are used
to -- because they like them -- black folk like Cassandra.
William wasn't uncomfortable in the house. He said he was bored.
He was told many others in the house were "intimidated" by him. That
hardly looks like the "more realistic portrait of how a young black
man from the streets reacts to "white folk"" -- it's a more
realistic portrait of how ordinary "white folk" react to a young black
man on the street.
Don't blame the victim. He did not change himself according to the
expectations of white america. For once a black man in the spotlight
was exactly like he was. He did not put on a mask for white america.
And white america first got intimidated. then it got mad. Both
inside the house and outside the house. It's the same old story, been
repeating 400 years.
> I think Jordan should have been banished and she could have
> gone on to the Letterman Show. At this point, people are bored
> with her and I don't know if she will get her 15 minutes of fame. We
> know too much about her already and it's just plain boring. If she
> would have left last week, I think she actually would have done better
> with a future career in front of the camera. I'm sure Howard Stern,
> though, will love to have her and Brittany on his show.
Jordan is trying to whore her way to the top prize. I sure
hope she wins it. I think she deserves the prize the most.
George should get the second prize and Eddie the third. They
all can use the money. No one else needs it; some like Karen
never even had the expectation to win (she came on the show assuming
it was a one month vacation.)
Stark
>One of the big reasons that it was not acceptable to America the
>way Will was behaving was because he was close to Jordan. That
is
>something this racist society has never tolerated. Jordan is
>a beautiful young white woman. The Jordan-Will mix (all those
>massages) infuriates America. It drives America mad like a
>lynchmob.
Of all the criticisms I've seen of Will here and in chat rooms,
I have never once heard anyone criticize his massaging Jordan.
In fact, the only person I've ever heard criticize this was
Khalid Muhammad, leader of the New Blank Panthers.
You attribute way too much importance to William. Nobody gives
a damn who he's massaging, except apparently Will's former
associates.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Josephine
On 24 Jul 2000, J. S. wrote>
> And let's not get stuck
> with the example of Fabio alone. Tom Cruise,
> harrison Ford, Michael Douglas, mel Gibson, John Travolta,
> Bruce Willis, Tom hanks...the whole stretch...
>
> Samuel L jackson is very much a castrated black actor.
> He shoots guns and shouts, but never gets to fuck a
> comely actress on screen, and make her moan and groan
> like the Tom Cruises of Hollywood do.
What about Wesley Snipes. eg)"One night stand". Or Laurence Fishburne.
eg) "Othello". Yummy re LF.
Now, I agree to a certain extent that some men haven't been given the same
sex scene screen time as Tom Cruise. But there is another factor here.
Hollywood is all about money. If you can bring in the dough, then you
have the clout to demand whatever number of sex scenes you want. Sam
Jackson just needs to be in a couple of more blockbusters.
I would also point out that unless you are tom cruise superhero films
are generally full of ass-kicking and very little sex. The hero
saves the day and gets the girl but in the end we just get to see them
kiss. "Superman", "Die Hard", "Batman", "Hard-boiled", "Matrix",
"Speed"...
So why would "Shaft" be any different.
--Josephine
The One
" J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
news:8lh034$cui$2...@news3.bu.edu...
Eyes Wide Shut. Eww. I'd much rather see Will and Jada do a love scene than
Tom and Nicole...
Anyway, most of the stuff that he has been doing has been more action, and
while there is sometimes sex in action films, most of the time(as someone
else here stated) it's all about action. Sam Jackson, to me, is not a
castrated black actor. In addition to being phenomenal in everything he's
done, he did have a semi-love scene with Lisa Nicole Carson in Eve's Bayou.
The One
" J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
news:8lhmdk$n3n$3...@news3.bu.edu...
> Marina <x...@xxx.com> wrote:
>
> > I think they should have cancelled the game and redid it.
>
> This comment reveals exactly the attitude of America
> about blacks. Only docile, smiling and grinning "yes, massa'"
> blacks are welcome. Self-respecting blacks need not apply.
>
Wait. So I suppose there is no black man or woman that just happens to have
a docile nature? Uh huh.
J. S.
> " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
> news:8lh034$cui$2...@news3.bu.edu...
>> The One <zom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Did you not see 'Enemy of the State'? Will Smith saves the day, doing
> many
>> > stunts and looks great doing it.
>>
>> Yeah, but he never gets any, if you know what I mean. Tom Cruise does.
> Eyes Wide Shut. Eww. I'd much rather see Will and Jada do a love scene than
> Tom and Nicole...
> Anyway, most of the stuff that he has been doing has been more action, and
> while there is sometimes sex in action films, most of the time(as someone
> else here stated) it's all about action. Sam Jackson, to me, is not a
> castrated black actor. In addition to being phenomenal in everything he's
> done, he did have a semi-love scene with Lisa Nicole Carson in Eve's Bayou.
Small exceptions -- still exceptions. Let's not get stuck with
the Tom Cruise example. I think the pooint I was making was clear enough.
J. S.
We'll see when black heroes start getting girls in the end wholesale
like white heroes do. That's the point. *Comparative*.
i do not deny the occasional exception. But they are just that,
occasional exceptions.
J. S.
> " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
> news:8lhmdk$n3n$3...@news3.bu.edu...
>> Marina <x...@xxx.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I think they should have cancelled the game and redid it.
>>
>> This comment reveals exactly the attitude of America
>> about blacks. Only docile, smiling and grinning "yes, massa'"
>> blacks are welcome. Self-respecting blacks need not apply.
>>
> Wait. So I suppose there is no black man or woman that just happens to have
> a docile nature? Uh huh.
This is a ridiculous inference which does not follow from my
statement. It is in fact an attempt -- perhaps involuntary -- to
sidetrack the discussion. Please desist from going off on
wild tangents if you wanna discuss anything seriously.
Teddi Litman
" J. S." wrote:
> The One <zom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Did you not see 'Enemy of the State'? Will Smith saves the day, doing many
> > stunts and looks great doing it.
>
> Yeah, but he never gets any, if you know what I mean. Tom Cruise does.
I just watched the DVD for "Independence Day" last night. His
very first scene indicates he "got some." In fact, he's the *only*
male character in that movie where it's indicated he "got
some." Also on the commentary track, the director says
the man has more charisma than should be allowed for a single
human being. They (the director and co-writer) also comment
on the importance of
his shirtless scene for the female audience. Not exactly
what I'd call sexually neutral. I find Will Smith very sexy;
so do a lot of other women of all colors.
Incidentally, MegaWill told Bryant he wanted to meet Will Smith
along with several other black celebrities he admires.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
" J. S." wrote:
> .
>
> Show me a strong black figure who's not 'neutered' --
Well, I'm sure you'll find some way to call them "neutered
Uncle Toms" but Mega Will listed these men as "strong, positive
black role models."
Avery Brooks ("strong image in the media and television
and the movies")
Will Smith
Spike Lee
John Singleton
Teddi Litman
" J. S." wrote:
> . Don't you see the suggestions for
> helping Will stay on the show demonstrate exactly what he was
> protesting against, things like "I will not be Will Smith."
Except that he listed Will Smith as one of the "strong, positive
black role models" that he really wants to meet on the "CBS
Early Show" this morning.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
" J. S." wrote:
>
>
> One of the big reasons that it was not acceptable to America the
> way Will was behaving was because he was close to Jordan. That is
> something this racist society has never tolerated. Jordan is
> a beautiful young white woman. The Jordan-Will mix (all those
> massages) infuriates America. It drives America mad like a lynchmob.
Kahlid Mohammad sure had a problem with it.
J. S.
> On 23 Jul 2000 22:45:44 GMT, " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote:
>>As was mentioned earlier, raping (or even being accused of raping) a
>>white woman was enough reason to get a black man lynched. Castration
>>often preceded it.
>>
>>That's the way America likes its black men.
> What does slavery and lynching black men have to do with me being on
> Big Brother? You are all talk, man. You need to get some of your
> facts straight before you go preaching.
What facts?
J. S.
>
> " J. S." wrote:
>> The One <zom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Did you not see 'Enemy of the State'? Will Smith saves the day, doing many
>> > stunts and looks great doing it.
>>
>> Yeah, but he never gets any, if you know what I mean. Tom Cruise does.
> I just watched the DVD for "Independence Day" last night. His
> very first scene indicates he "got some." In fact, he's the *only*
> male character in that movie where it's indicated he "got
> some." Also on the commentary track, the director says
> the man has more charisma than should be allowed for a single
> human being. They (the director and co-writer) also comment
> on the importance of
> his shirtless scene for the female audience. Not exactly
> what I'd call sexually neutral. I find Will Smith very sexy;
> so do a lot of other women of all colors.
Well, I for one am glad to see the changes. Hope it gets even better.
> Incidentally, MegaWill told Bryant he wanted to meet Will Smith
> along with several other black celebrities he admires.
Yup, I wonder what he'd say to Will Smith after mentioning him
to Cassandra in a not-so-positive light.
Mary K. Conner
<willco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What does slavery and lynching black men have to do with me being on
>Big Brother? You are all talk, man. You need to get some of your
>facts straight before you go preaching.
More path analysis would be needed to see where this actually
originated from. It's also tagged with www.altopia.com in the
Organization, jimbos.News.Service in the Message-ID, Complaints to
netlane.com, and the NNTP-Posting-Host is forged. Probability of
troll: damn near 100%
Here's my copy of the headers:
Path:
newsfeed.slurp.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feedwest.news.agis.net!agis!news.alt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01-penn.edu!philly.snx.kli!
From: William Collins <willco...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv
Subject: Re: BB: Strong versus Weak contestants
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:52:38 -0700
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The One
"Teddi Litman" <dayb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:397CE74F...@ix.netcom.com...
>
>
> " J. S." wrote:
>
> > The One <zom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Did you not see 'Enemy of the State'? Will Smith saves the day, doing
many
> > > stunts and looks great doing it.
> >
> > Yeah, but he never gets any, if you know what I mean. Tom Cruise does.
>
> I just watched the DVD for "Independence Day" last night. His
> very first scene indicates he "got some." In fact, he's the *only*
> male character in that movie where it's indicated he "got
> some." Also on the commentary track, the director says
> the man has more charisma than should be allowed for a single
> human being. They (the director and co-writer) also comment
> on the importance of
> his shirtless scene for the female audience. Not exactly
> what I'd call sexually neutral. I find Will Smith very sexy;
> so do a lot of other women of all colors.
>
> Incidentally, MegaWill told Bryant he wanted to meet Will Smith
> along with several other black celebrities he admires.
>
> Teddi
I may be wrong but didn't he 'get some' in Wild Wild West? I may be wrong
b/c I know it was kind of aimed at the younger set but I seem to recall a
hot tub scene. Btw, Taye Diggs is also a gorgeous guy who's very sexy and
had some good roles--I'd like to see him in more films!
The One
" J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
news:8lieor$6at$1...@news3.bu.edu...
> The One <zom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
> > news:8lhmdk$n3n$3...@news3.bu.edu...
> >> Marina <x...@xxx.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I think they should have cancelled the game and redid it.
> >>
> >> This comment reveals exactly the attitude of America
> >> about blacks. Only docile, smiling and grinning "yes, massa'"
> >> blacks are welcome. Self-respecting blacks need not apply.
> >>
>
> > Wait. So I suppose there is no black man or woman that just happens to
have
> > a docile nature? Uh huh.
>
> This is a ridiculous inference which does not follow from my
> statement.
You're absolutely right. It was my mistake--I read too fast and assumed you
were referring to Cassandra's docile nature. I sincerely apologize for my
mistake.
Regina
--
The Wild Wild William Baldwin Homepage:
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/williambaldwin
The William Baldwin Fan Club:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/williambaldwinfanclub
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change...
egina
J. S.
> " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
> news:8lieor$6at$1...@news3.bu.edu...
>> The One <zom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> > " J. S." <j...@strangelove.bu.edu> wrote in message
>> > news:8lhmdk$n3n$3...@news3.bu.edu...
>> >> Marina <x...@xxx.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I think they should have cancelled the game and redid it.
>> >>
>> >> This comment reveals exactly the attitude of America
>> >> about blacks. Only docile, smiling and grinning "yes, massa'"
>> >> blacks are welcome. Self-respecting blacks need not apply.
>> >>
>>
>> > Wait. So I suppose there is no black man or woman that just happens to
> have
>> > a docile nature? Uh huh.
>>
>> This is a ridiculous inference which does not follow from my
>> statement.
> You're absolutely right. It was my mistake--I read too fast and assumed you
> were referring to Cassandra's docile nature. I sincerely apologize for my
> mistake.
No problem. May God get you close to Curtis.