In Holland, There's No More Room for the Child Jesus
Sound of Trumpet
In Holland, There's No More Room for the Child Jesus. Or Then Again,
There Is [Dutch Crisis]
L'Espresso ^ | 12/30/09 | Sandro Magister
Posted on 30 December 2009 19:55:26 by marshmallow
Churches that are no longer churches, but condominiums, stores, or
mosques. A Catholicism in danger of disappearing. A reportage from
Amsterdam with an interview with Cardinal Simonis: "We have to start
over from the beginning"
ROME, December 30, 2009 – Until half a century ago, Dutch and Flemish
Catholicism seemed to be in solid shape, strong in its traditions,
active in mission. One of its symbols was Fr. Jozef Damiaan de Veuster
(1840-1889), an apostle to the lepers on an island in the Pacific, who
was proclaimed a saint by Benedict XVI last October 11.
A few days ago, just before Christmas, another great symbol of this
Catholicism died at the age of 95 in Nijmegen, Dominican theologian
Edward Schillebeeckx, Flemish by birth, Dutch by choice.
However, this is a symbol not of the flourishing but of the
astonishing deterioration that the Church of Flanders and of Holland
has experienced over the past half century.
Schillebeeckx reflected this metamorphosis in his own life as a
theologian. In the years of Vatican Council II and of the period
immediately after the council, he was a star of worldwide impact, a
champion of the new theology in step with the dominant culture. But
then he was almost forgotten, even by the Catholics who had acclaimed
him.
The disregard that fell over him went hand in hand with what was
happening in the meantime in Dutch Catholicism, increasingly more
forgetful of itself, increasingly secularized, increasingly in danger
of disappearing.
The survey reproduced below is a snapshot of the current profile of
the Catholic Church in Holland. A country in which today 41 percent of
the population say that they have no religious faith, and 58 percent
no longer know what Christmas is. A Church in which there are
Dominicans and Jesuits who are theorizing and practicing Masses
without priesthood or Christian sacrament, in which those present
"consecrate" collectively, around a "table that is also open to people
of different religious traditions."
All of this while at the same time, a city like Rotterdam has been
thoroughly Islamized, as www.chiesa showed in a shocking article a few
months ago.
The survey that follows is by Marina Corradi, and was published on
December 23 in "Avvenire," the newspaper owned by the Italian bishops'
conference. Its epicenter is Amsterdam.
The reportage is accompanied by an interview with Cardinal Adrianus
Simonis, archbishop emeritus of Utrecht.
_________
In Amsterdam, what is left of Christmas
by Marina Corradi
Amsterdam is festive this Christmas season. Dazzling light displays
illuminate the Damrak and Dam Square. Skating rinks crowded with
laughing children, Santa Clauses, and the strains of "Jingle Bells"
coming from the big, crowded stores. But what is left of Christmas in
one of the most secularized countries in Europe, where 58 percent of
the population, according to one survey, does not know exactly what
happened that day? In a country with 900,000 Arab immigrants out of 16
million inhabitants, and twenty mosques in Amsterdam alone?
The Oude Kerk, the oldest church in the city, built in 1309, stands
solidly in the heart of downtown. Around it is the red-light district.
From the windows in which they are displayed, the South American and
Eastern European prostitutes knock on the glass in order to attract
the attention of passersby. A few of them wear Santa Claus hats. You
look at them and you try to imagine what kind of story brought them
here. They smile, winking. But the thousand lights of the city are an
intoxication that covers the false delight of these alleyways. You go
further. The Neuwe Kerk, the church where the kings of Holland were
crowned, is a museum. The only "church" in the city that is crowded is
the church of Scientology, a six-story building in the thick of the
city center. "Institute of religious technology," reads a sign inside.
They offer free stress tests. There's a ton of people.
It's strange, this string of churches that aren't churches anymore:
but condominiums, pubs, mosques. You look at the trash collectors, the
laborers in the streets, the waiters in the pizzerias: almost all of
them are Moroccan or Turkish. Almost one million hands. And even if
nearly as many immigrants come from Christian countries, the Dutch are
afraid of all of these Muslims. The populist right-wing party of Gert
Wilders is in second place among voters, and the election is in a few
months. Two thirds of the Dutch say that there are too many
immigrants. In the suburbs there are neighborhoods like Slotervaart,
completely Muslim ghettos, where it is almost impossible to find a
Dutchman. They've all gone. Rotterdam has an even higher percentage of
Muslims, and a Muslim mayor. One American newspaper has called it the
"Eurabian nightmare." In reality, you see fewer veiled women in Dutch
city centers than in some neighborhoods of Milan. Although the murders
of Van Gogh and Fortuyn have deeply shaken the Dutch, and
fundamentalist imams do exist, the great majority of Muslims seem to
want to work and live in peace.
In reality, the fear of Eurabia seems to be simply a consequence of an
even more radical phenomenon: the almost complete secularization of a
country that, until the last war, was Catholic or Protestant, but in
any case Christian. There has been a collapse: only 7 percent of
Catholics now go to Sunday Mass. 16 percent of children are baptized.
Holland has been a pioneer in gay marriage and euthanasia. "After
Vatican Council II," says Professor Wim Peeters, a teacher at the
seminary of the diocese of Haarlem-Amsterdam, "the Dutch Church
entered a profound crisis. The generation of the 1950's is gone, and
it forgot to educate its children." In 1964, religious education in
the schools was abolished. Two generations of Dutch have forgotten the
ABC's of Christianity. In the register of the seminary of Haarlem, the
number of priests plunges at the end of the 1960's. In 1968, there
isn't even one. "I believe," Peeters says, "that we would have nothing
to fear from Islam, if we were Christians. And it often seems that
today the Dutch are afraid of everything: of having children, as they
are of immigrants. But fear is the exact opposite of faith."
Still searching for Christmas, at number 40 on Oudezijds Voorburgwal,
in the red-light district, there is a little gate. At the top floor of
the Museum Amstelkring is a church, a clandestine church, dating back
to the time of the Calvinist persecution that prohibited Catholic
worship. In the attic are an altar, an organ, and ten pews to which
the faithful came secretly. "Ons' Lieve Heer op Solder" is the name of
the church: our dear Lord in the attic. Christ in the attic, you
wonder, is this Christmas in Amsterdam?
And yet. In the seminary of Haarlem-Amsterdam there are 45
seminarians, in part the reflection of a strong Neocatechumenal
presence. Bishop Josef Punt explains that today something has changed
in comparison with the hardest crisis, twenty or thirty years ago. If
in 1968 not even a single priest emerged from the seminary, he says,
today every year in Holland as a whole 15 new priests are ordained,
who keep the numbers at a stable level. In this diocese, a few hundred
people each year ask to be baptized as adults. A new yearning can be
perceived, generated by the sense of emptiness. Of course, we are
talking about small numbers. We are a missionary Church. Everything
has to be started all over again. In the monasteries outside of the
city, we are creating centers of evangelization for those who, far
from the faith, want to rediscover it. In our Catholic school in
Haarlem, we are not able to accept all the requests for enrollment. I
have the feeling that these parents, although they are no longer
believers, are fascinated by the beauty of Christianity, and want it
for their children."
It takes trust to believe this, in this city where from the bell
towers of churches that are no longer churches, the bells play
cheerful Christmas melodies. A thousand Santa Clauses, and no nativity
scene. Except for a tiny one in the Salvation Army branch near
Centraal Station, in the soup kitchen for the poor. Twenty homeless
people numbed by the cold, giant thermoses of hot coffee, and that
little nativity scene. And then again, at Egelantinstraat 147, almost
in the suburbs, a shabby house. You ring, and one of Mother Teresa's
sisters opens the door. There are four of them. Here there is Mass
every morning, and vespers every evening. An undecorated chapel, two
sisters in adoration. Beneath the altar, the manger of the nativity
scene.
But if the sense of Christmas is a question, an anticipation, then you
will still find it in the streets of this city. It is the empty
stocking that the children hang in the chimney on the eve of Saint
Nicholas, December 5, expecting a gift. It is those homeless people,
and, if you look into their eyes, those young prostitutes in the
windows of the red-light district. It is the lonely elderly people
walking hesitantly over the snow, afraid of falling down and ending up
disabled in the hospital, where they may be seen as dead weight. It is
the girls at the table of an Italian pizzeria behind the Dam, holding
hands and singing, "I wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new
year," Yeah, a happy year. "In spite of everything," Professor Wim
Peeters told us, "the desire for happiness, and therefore for God, is
always there, in the heart of man."
__________
"Two generations have been lost"
Interview with Cardinal Adrianus Simonis
The archbishop emeritus of Utrecht, Cardinal Adrianus Simonis, 78, is
the "old stalwart" of the Dutch Church. He is well known and loved in
the country, including by the Muslims. "Maybe because," he explains,
smiling, "I said that Muslims who are faithful to God will go to the
highest heights of heaven."
But the cardinal, who now lives in a town in Brabant, Nieuwkuijk,
seems less optimistic about his Holland.
"Yes, there may be signs of a new trend, but we're talking about
extremely small numbers," he says. "There remains that figure, that 58
percent of Dutchmen who no longer know exactly what Christmas is.
There are some who, looking at Holland, are disturbed by the number of
mosques. I can understand that, but the real problem here comes before
immigration: it is that we have gotten lost, we have lost our
Christian identity. Yes, there is a problem with Islamic
fundamentalism in Holland, but most of the immigrants don't follow it.
More than extremism, what worries me about the young Muslim
generations is the advance of secularization. I am afraid that they
will end up converting to the true religion that dominates the West:
relativism."
(And in effect, looking at the young Moroccans at the McDonald's in
Amsterdam, and their sisters in leggings, the question arises whether
the new Muslim generations are not already assimilating, in every
sense, to us).
Q: Your Eminence, aren't racism and xenophobia problems here?
A: I don't believe so. The Dutch are a tolerant people. I don't see a
wave of racism on the horizon.
Q: In Haarlem, the bishop says that one is beginning to notice in the
young people a sense of emptiness, the absence of that which has been
forgotten . . .
A: It is true, many are aware of the emptiness. But they don't know
how to go beyond it, they don't know what to ask, and of whom. They
have not been taught to recognize and perceive the desire of their
heart. In this sense I am convinced, like Bishop Punt, that the Dutch
Church is truly called to be missionary. Two generations have been
lost. It is a matter of starting over from the beginning, and within a
culture that is indifferent to Christianity, among less than friendly
media.
Q: You are 78 years old. You were a child at the time of the war. At
the time, wasn't Holland a strongly Christian country? And afterward,
what happened?
A: It was probably a Christianity too strongly marked by rigid
moralism. It was followed by a rebellion that was radical, just as the
character of the Dutch is radical. They are not capable of believing
just "a little" in something. Aut, aut. They have become the opposite
of what they were."
Q: Nonetheless, there are 45 students in the Haarlem seminary today,
and a few hundred adults asking for baptism. In Amsterdam, I found the
sisters of Mother Teresa in adoration in front of the Crucifix. The
Catholics here are few, but strong . . .
A: It's true. Of course, in a situation like this, the salt is forced,
so to speak, to become more salty . . .
Q: What do you intend to say, at the Christmas Masses, to the
faithful?
A: That perhaps they have forgotten the Christian message, the one
that is its essence: God became man, he came to the world in poverty,
humble and fragile like a newborn child, out of love for us.
Q: Did you know, Your Eminence, that a short time ago in the little
town near here, Drunen, I saw a hundred children come out from the
Catholic church where there had been a Christmas ceremony?
A: It must be that young priest who just arrived, who's hard at
work . . ."
So the story starts over, again. To start over, all it takes is the
face of a Christian.
panam...@hotmail.com
wrote:
snip crap
You say that like it's a *bad* thing. Perhaps the Europeans are simply
taking their holiday back from the foreign religion that stole it?
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!
MarkA
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2417804/posts
>
>
> In Holland, There's No More Room for the Child Jesus. Or Then Again,
> There Is [Dutch Crisis]
>
> L'Espresso ^ | 12/30/09 | Sandro Magister
>
> Posted on 30 December 2009 19:55:26 by marshmallow
>
> Churches that are no longer churches, but condominiums, stores, or
> mosques. A Catholicism in danger of disappearing.
How is that a "danger"?
--
MarkA
Keeper of the Butter Dish of Balshazar
Alan Ford
>> Churches that are no longer churches, but condominiums, stores, or
>> mosques. A Catholicism in danger of disappearing.
>
> How is that a "danger"?
All those used bullshit salesmen might have to start actually working
for a living.
--
If you don't beat your meat
You can't have any pudding
How can you have any pudding
If you don't beat your meat?
Father Haskell
> MarkA proudly displayed his idiocy by writing:
>
> >> Churches that are no longer churches, but condominiums, stores, or
> >> mosques. A Catholicism in danger of disappearing.
>
> > How is that a "danger"?
>
> All those used bullshit salesmen might have to start actually working
> for a living.
Aged horseshit makes the finest compost.
tomcervo
A load of OT crap from a nutcase website
Rich
4c0b-a3fc-7...@34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2417804/posts
>
>
> In Holland, There's No More Room for the Child Jesus. Or Then Again,
> There Is [Dutch Crisis]
>
> L'Espresso ^ | 12/30/09 | Sandro Magister
>
> Posted on 30 December 2009 19:55:26 by marshmallow
>
> Churches that are no longer churches, but condominiums, stores, or
> mosques. A Catholicism in danger of disappearing. A reportage from
> Amsterdam with an interview with Cardinal Simonis: "We have to start
>
Lets see how they like it when half the population is Muslim and all you
hear all day long is the caterwauling of muezzin screeching from minaretes.
Taemon
> In Holland, There's No More Room for the Child Jesus. Or Then Again,
> There Is [Dutch Crisis]
It's "The Netherlands". Jeez.
T.
jAk
Thanks for sharing your thought with those of us
who don't care what you think.
Jon Schild
> http://www.snip.com/
Perhaps, with the current pope trying so hard to drag the world back
into a dark hate-filled time when the catholic church ran the western
world, people are just fed up. Put blame where it belongs. Long periods
of persecution have shown that it is nearly impossible to destroy a
religious conviction from the outside. From the inside, it's easy.
Thanatos
MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Doesn't it mean there'll be less "diversity" and "multiculturalism"?
Wouldn't a "sensitive" liberal be opposed to this trend?
Free Lunch
alt.atheism:
There is a Holland in The Netherlands. There's one in Michigan, too.
MarkA
If it is the result of more people just not caring about religion, it is
a good thing.
Thanatos
MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 11:28:00 -0500, Thanatos wrote:
>
> > In article <pan.2010.01.02....@nowhere.com>,
> > MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 14:33:02 -0800, Sound of Trumpet wrote:
> >>
> >> > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2417804/posts
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In Holland, There's No More Room for the Child Jesus. Or Then Again,
> >> > There Is [Dutch Crisis]
> >> >
> >> > L'Espresso ^ | 12/30/09 | Sandro Magister
> >> >
> >> > Posted on 30 December 2009 19:55:26 by marshmallow
> >> >
> >> > Churches that are no longer churches, but condominiums, stores, or
> >> > mosques. A Catholicism in danger of disappearing.
> >>
> >> How is that a "danger"?
> >
> > Doesn't it mean there'll be less "diversity" and "multiculturalism"?
> > Wouldn't a "sensitive" liberal be opposed to this trend?
>
> If it is the result of more people just not caring about
> religion, it is a good thing.
So then, no. Diversity multiculturalism are good things as long only
certain accepted demographics are represented. Anything outside those
politically correct boundaries and bigotry is not only welcome, it's
encouraged.
DouhetSukd
appreciated in Holland for centuries. Up until not very long ago
there were restrictions on the building of Catholic churches.
The reason for that are pretty simple. The Emperor of Spain conducted
an extremely nasty war against the Netherlands in the 16th century,
most of which having to do with independence and religion (Spanish
Catholics vs. Dutch Protestants). As tolerant as the Dutch usually
are (notwithstanding assorted colonial adventures) they were very much
anti-Catholics, by law and habit, well into the 20th century. So it's
not like liberalism took away Dutch Catholicism's rights, the opposite
is closer to the truth. How does that square with his random stupid
statements?
Next thing you know, he's going to discover that Catholicism is
questioned in Spain, but Franco will never come to his mind.
I guess 2010 isn't the year when Strumpet goes away or triples his
brain cell count to 2.
William December Starr
Thanatos <atr...@mac.com> said:
> MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> Sound of Trumpet [quoted somebody]:
>>
>>> Churches that are no longer churches, but condominiums, stores,
>>> or mosques. A Catholicism in danger of disappearing.
>>
>> How is that a "danger"?
>
> Doesn't it mean there'll be less "diversity" and
> "multiculturalism"? Wouldn't a "sensitive" liberal be opposed to
> this trend?
It's your straw man; why don't you ask him?
-- wds
Mike Schilling
If he only had a brain.
Kilmir
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2417804/posts
>
> In Holland, There's No More Room for the Child Jesus. Or Then Again,
> There Is [Dutch Crisis]
<snip>
It all sounds like a Christmas dream come true doesn't it.
Oh wait, you think it's a *bad* thing?
Kilmir, usually proud to be Dutch