AMC:TAN: Thelma and Louise (was: Oscars)
Lance Sanders
On Thu, 8 Apr 93 14:28:27 GMT, pat...@oz.plymouth.edu (Pat Steward),
in Message-ID: <1993Apr8.1...@oz.plymouth.edu> writes:
I write:
>>
>> "Thelma and Louise" was about as valid a carthartic source for women
>>as "Superfly" was for black men. ;)
>
>Offhand, Lance, I'd say you have as little a frame of reference for
>this statement as I would have to comment on "Superfly."
When a white woman can't attain a frame of reference for commentary on
a "blackploitation" film, and a black man is incapable of assuming
(understanding) a white feminine frame of reference --- we're all doomed. ;)
Let me be more specific. "Thelma and Louise" is a "femploitation"
film: two troubled women take an impromptu road trip, give into their
"dark side", commit murder and robbery (and adultery), then perform a
double-suicide off a cliff.
Without all the hype and metaphorical allusions (the last still-shot),
it's a two star "B" movie, at best.
Have you seen Natalie Merchant's music video, "Candy Everybody Wants"?
"Living in 'Eden' has it's advanatges. As a member of the state, you get
to pick your dependecies: lust, hate, blood...think of it as 'candy
everybody wants'. Enforcer State --- Enforcer Tastes."
Thelma & Louise meet D-FENS (Michael Douglas' "I've had it up to
here!" character in "Falling Down"). :)
It will be made, and metal detectors will NOT be in place in the
theatres.
Enjoy your catharsis. Ice-T says "hello". ;)
On Thu, 8 Apr 1993 15:41:07 GMT, le...@linac.fnal.gov (June Cummins
Lewis), in Message-ID: <093R#NI...@linac.fnal.gov> writes:
I write:
>>
>> Instead, with the attack stopped, and both women walking away, the
>>would-be rapist calls T a bitch, which triggers all her pent-up rage.
>> She killed not in self-defense, but in an act of indulgence.
>
>Sorry, but I think you are splitting hairs here. She didn't kill in
>self-defense, but I wouldn't call it an act of indulgence.
THAT'S splitting hairs! :)
>It's much more like the woman in California who shot the man who molested
>her little boy. That wasn't self-defense, but it wasn't indulgence.
Hardly the same circumstance, June.
Name-calling isn't a valid defense for shooting someone in cold blood,
regardless of mindset --- unless you want to argue that Thelma went
insane as a result of being called a bitch. :)
It was Louise who had been roughed up in the parking lot. Thelma
prevented a rape. Louise had not been sexually molested. They decided
not to call the police.
Thelma got pissed - and killed. D-FENS got pissed - and went psycho.
I see both "Thelma and Louise" and "Falling Down" as studies into the
incredible rage of a subjugated people. And the consequences when it's
not addressed.
June continues:
>
>Call it a crime of passion or vigilante justice--I'm not condoning either
>one, but I can certainly see the impulse that leads to them.
Yes!
>To call it an act of indulgence nullifies the justifiable rage Thelma was
>feeling.
No it doesn't. She made a serious mistake. Her rage was justified, her
act was not.
If you can't keep your rage in check, or sublimate it, you're as
dangerous to society as your oppressors.
>I don't like murder, either,
I'm with you, so far... :)
>but I completely understood and identified with these women's anger and
>sense of injustice. It was thrilling to see a movie where women were
>allowed to be renegades and pursue their own desires.
And commit double-suicide by driving off the edge of a cliff because
their actions left them no way out.
>Men do this (go renegade/get violent) in movies all the time
Yup.
> and I don't hear you saying that the
>films are indulgent and invalid, even as cathartic sources.
You missed the 1st go-round of this TAN last year.
The general knocks against the male-dominated action genre are the
obscene amount of violence and domination/subjugation of women.
Valid knocks for the majority of the flicks.
Charles Bronson's "Death Wish" (?) series, where he offs criminals as
an out-of-control vigilante is, I'm sure you would agree, a poor source
of cartharsis, regardless of viewer gender.
Thelma was as much a vigilante as Bronson's character.
Conversely, in Bruce Lee's martial arts films, for example, _violent
as they are_, the heroes take pains to adhere to SOME code of fair play.
Same for Steven Seagal and (most of) Schwartzenneger's action stuff
(Arnold's shooting of Sharon Stone in "Total Recall" would make an
interesting sub-thread, however).
Rent Stallone's "First Blood". You'll see what I mean.
Or even better, Larry Fishburne's "Deep Cover".
When you glorify the anti-hero, as was the case in "Thelma and
Louise", IMO, you invalidate them as sympathetic figures.
---------
Lance Sanders
sta...@genesis.mcs.com ...I see an intriguing segue into the
GE Mail: L.Sanders6 Rodney King beating, but I'll wait for
V: (312) 667-5958 the "new" verdict...
Pat Steward
>
>On Thu, 8 Apr 93 14:28:27 GMT, pat...@oz.plymouth.edu (Pat Steward),
>in Message-ID: <1993Apr8.1...@oz.plymouth.edu> writes:
>
>I write:
>>>
>>> "Thelma and Louise" was about as valid a carthartic source for women
>>>as "Superfly" was for black men. ;)
>>
>>Offhand, Lance, I'd say you have as little a frame of reference for
>>this statement as I would have to comment on "Superfly."
>
> When a white woman can't attain a frame of reference for commentary on
>a "blackploitation" film, and a black man is incapable of assuming
>(understanding) a white feminine frame of reference --- we're all doomed. ;)
>
> Name-calling isn't a valid defense for shooting someone in cold blood,
>regardless of mindset --- unless you want to argue that Thelma went
>insane as a result of being called a bitch. :)
I've probably posted here about reclaiming the name "bitch" -- I've
gotten to quite like it! After all, a bitch is a woman who does what
SHE wants, not what someone else wants.
> It was Louise who had been roughed up in the parking lot. Thelma
>prevented a rape. Louise had not been sexually molested. They decided
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>not to call the police.
Horse shit she hadn't.
>>but I completely understood and identified with these women's anger and
>>sense of injustice. It was thrilling to see a movie where women were
>>allowed to be renegades and pursue their own desires.
>
> And commit double-suicide by driving off the edge of a cliff because
>their actions left them no way out.
WRONG. They had another way out. They didn't choose it, though.
>
> When you glorify the anti-hero, as was the case in "Thelma and
>Louise", IMO, you invalidate them as sympathetic figures.
Maybe for you, bud. Not for a lot of women I know.
--
Patricia Martin Steward pat...@oz.plymouth.edu
I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is;
I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express senti-
ments that differentiate me from a doormat. Rebecca West, 1913
June Cummins Lewis
we've got the TAN heading, I'll continue the conversation here for
now . . . .
Lance said:
>>>
>>> Instead, with the attack stopped, and both women walking away, the
>>>would-be rapist calls T a bitch, which triggers all her pent-up rage.
>>> She killed not in self-defense, but in an act of indulgence.
>>
>>Sorry, but I think you are splitting hairs here. She didn't kill in
>>self-defense, but I wouldn't call it an act of indulgence.
>
> THAT'S splitting hairs! :)
>
>
>>It's much more like the woman in California who shot the man who molested
>>her little boy. That wasn't self-defense, but it wasn't indulgence.
>
> Hardly the same circumstance, June.
That's funny--in my mind, the two sets of circumstances are amazingly
similar. In both cases, a person was sexually assaulted. In both
cases, an older, maternal figure (or mother) sought revenge. In both
cases, it was the final insult (the name-calling in T&L, the smirk in
the California case) that drove the maternal woman over the edge.
What you seem to be missing, Lance, is that Thelma did not kill the
would-be rapist because he called her a bitch. She killed him because
he tried to rape Louise. Sure, she walked away at first, but the
incident was far from defused. I really don't see how you can say
that Thelma was being self-indulgent just because she wasn't able to
muster her rage in the few seconds she was walking away. The would-be
rapist knew how incendiary the situation was when he called her a
bitch--his need to have the last word, to win the fight, really, was
his undoing.
> Name-calling isn't a valid defense for shooting someone in cold blood,
>regardless of mindset --- unless you want to argue that Thelma went
>insane as a result of being called a bitch. :)
No, that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that his calling
her a name was the insult added to the injury--the injury being
specificaly that he almost raped Louise and generally how men treat
women. Thelma was reacting to the injury much more than the insult.
Of course I still don't think it's right that murder is presented as a
viable option, but then again, I'm sick of all these movies that
present rape and the subjugation of women all the time. So this movie
was far-fetched--so what? It still had an incredible impact and said
something that the vast majority of Hollywood films are too timid to
say. It had its flaws, but I'd hardly call it a B movie--this is a
matter of opinion, of course.
>> It was Louise who had been roughed up in the parking lot. Thelma
>prevented a rape. Louise had not been sexually molested. They decided
>not to call the police.
Louise was not molested? Huh?
> Thelma got pissed - and killed. D-FENS got pissed - and went psycho.
>
> I see both "Thelma and Louise" and "Falling Down" as studies into the
>incredible rage of a subjugated people. And the consequences when it's
>not addressed.
I'll buy that.
>
>June continues:
>>
>>Call it a crime of passion or vigilante justice--I'm not condoning either
>>one, but I can certainly see the impulse that leads to them.
>
> Yes!
>
>>To call it an act of indulgence nullifies the justifiable rage Thelma was
>>feeling.
>
> No it doesn't. She made a serious mistake. Her rage was justified, her
>act was not.
>
> If you can't keep your rage in check, or sublimate it, you're as
>dangerous to society as your oppressors.
True, but you've got your basic oppressors to thank for that
situation. Thelma did not go out and murder any guy with two legs and
two balls. She murdered a man who tried to rape her friend. I'm
still at a loss as to how you can call her act indulgent. Maybe we
just have different definitions of that word.
>>I don't like murder, either,
>
> I'm with you, so far... :)
>
>>but I completely understood and identified with these women's anger and
>>sense of injustice. It was thrilling to see a movie where women were
>>allowed to be renegades and pursue their own desires.
>
> And commit double-suicide by driving off the edge of a cliff because
>their actions left them no way out.
>
Well, this did not seem so far-fetched to me. Not at all. Sorry if
it did to you. Many women are quite familiar with the concept of "no
way out."
> When you glorify the anti-hero, as was the case in "Thelma and
>Louise", IMO, you invalidate them as sympathetic figures.
Well, I don't want to get into a discussion of what constitutes an
anti-hero, or what is meant by "sympathetic," for that matter, so
let's just leave it at each of us having our own opinions.
June
--
"Saying that men talk about baseball in order to avoid talking about their
feelings is the same as saying that women talk about their feelings in order
to avoid talking about baseball."
--Deborah Tannen, author of _You Just Don't Understand_
p...@brutus.aa.ab.com
>
>That's funny--in my mind, the two sets of circumstances are amazingly
>similar. In both cases, a person was sexually assaulted. In both
>cases, an older, maternal figure (or mother) sought revenge. In both
>cases, it was the final insult (the name-calling in T&L, the smirk in
>the California case) that drove the maternal woman over the edge.
[...]
>
>No, that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that his calling
>her a name was the insult added to the injury--the injury being
>specificaly that he almost raped Louise and generally how men treat
>women. Thelma was reacting to the injury much more than the insult.
I have to agree, here. It was his insolence about
the whole thing that was so aggravating. Something
in his manner which said "ok, you stopped me this
time, but I'll just do it again, you know, maybe even
to *you*". I know he didnt say this, but it was that
attitude which made him so infuriating.
I dont condone murder, either. But did I understand
the feelings that drove her to it? You bet. Remember,
too, what Louise's home life was like. Perhaps Thelma
saw it as one too many abuses in her friend's life.
Then Lance says:
>
>>> It was Louise who had been roughed up in the parking lot. Thelma
>>prevented a rape. Louise had not been sexually molested.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ditto everyone else's comments -- *** huh ????? ***
And you know why they didnt call the police -- they
felt they wouldnt be believed, probably even in the few
seconds between the attack and the murder, Thelma
felt their story would not be believed, he'd get off
scott-free (think of "The Accused" -- a more in-depth
study of women's rape accusations).
As to the movie as a whole: excellent. A story of
women who used extreme measures to correct what the
world seems to see as a "normal situation". Perhaps
you need to be a woman to feel it (my BH liked the
movie, but not nearly as much as I ), but I felt
the injustice, the rage, and later the desperation
that T&H felt. And it felt good to see them do
something about agaisnt their oppressors.
The ending? wonderful. You wanted them to get away,
but Hollywood rarely allows murderers to go unpunished.
They did the next best thing. They didnt turn
themselves in (yet another symbolic subjugation to men),
or turn fire on the cops and go down in a blaze of
bullets (standard macho-movie style), but they went out
on their own -- because they wanted to. This "way
out" of the situation left them feeling free, in
control, and together. (although dead :-) And the
whole movie was about their (especially Louise's) quest
for just those things.
Carolyn Zaccaria
> When you glorify the anti-hero, as was the case in "Thelma and
>Louise", IMO, you invalidate them as sympathetic figures.
Hey KIDS! I just gotta say here that I can picture you two (June and
Lance) on tv on a talk show airing your views, remember like Brooke
and Jack? :) You both have valid points (from what I could follow) and
interesting things to say! I could also picture you both like Siskel
and Ebert only in much more detail, the show would have to be at least
an hour! :) (only one's a female! :)). Ms. Siskel! :) Well, you guys
drew me an interesting picture like the theatre :). And June is right
in that you each just have different opinions and it is just nothing
personal, right? Right! :)
CAZ
Lance Sanders
On Fri, 9 Apr 93 01:19:30 GMT, pat...@oz.plymouth.edu (Pat Steward),
in Message-ID: <1993Apr9....@oz.plymouth.edu> writes:
I write:
>>
>> It was Louise who had been roughed up in the parking lot. Thelma
>>prevented a rape. Louise had not been sexually molested. They decided
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Horse shit she hadn't.
Pardon. Louise had not been _raped_.
[In the unedited release I saw on HBO last year. Is there another
version?? I assume you want me to be aware that what her attacker was
doing to her in the parking lot, as well as what he had done to her on
the dance floor, was sexual molestation. I agree. I stand corrected.]
>>>but I completely understood and identified with these women's anger and
>>>sense of injustice. It was thrilling to see a movie where women were
>>>allowed to be renegades and pursue their own desires.
>>
>> And commit double-suicide by driving off the edge of a cliff because
>>their actions left them no way out.
>
>WRONG. They had another way out. They didn't choose it, though.
Well, they had a "batallion" at their backs, and a canyon in front.
The only other options were surrender (which they both dismissed) or to
turn and fire on the massive police force, which, again, would have been
suicide.
Where there's life, there's HOPE.
On Fri, 9 Apr 1993 03:50:54 GMT, le...@linac.fnal.gov (June Cummins
Lewis), in Message-ID: <!K-XK...@linac.fnal.gov> writes:
>>>It's much more like the woman in California who shot the man who molested
>>>her little boy. That wasn't self-defense, but it wasn't indulgence.
>>
>> Hardly the same circumstance, June.
>
>That's funny--in my mind, the two sets of circumstances are amazingly
>similar. In both cases, a person was sexually assaulted. In both cases,
>an older, maternal figure (or mother) sought revenge. In both cases, it
>was the final insult (the name-calling in T&L, the smirk in the
>California case) that drove the maternal woman over the edge.
June, I've just read two more half-page articles on the case, and I
now agree with you on this point. The murder in "Thelma and Louise" and
the murder in the Jamestown, CA courtroom are strikingly similar - and
equally chilling.
The comparison further strengthens my original premises.
USA Today/4-8-93/pg. 8A
"Spirit of 'frontier justice' lives again" by Maria Goodavage
"Ellie Nesler, a single mother, shot Daniel Mark Driver (accused of
molesting her son) during his preliminary hearing Friday (five times in
the head)...Driver previously was convicted of child molestation, but had
never served jail time...(believed) it was a smirk from Driver that
pushed Nesler over the edge during the hearing. But Judge Kent Grunewald
told the local newspaper he saw a 'tortured man, not knowing what shape
his face should take.'"
"Nesler, 40, isn't the first around here to snatch an alleged criminal
from the hands of the law and do him in. That tradition started in 1851
when a lynch mob wrestled accused robber Jim Hill from a sheriff and
hanged him...there is (currently) a life-sized dummy hanging from a noose
above Main Street."
"There's a lot to be said for frontier justice. It really makes people
think about what they value." --- George Enscoe, 83
"Five bullets in the head was too good for him...she done real good."
---Danny Gill, 38
"If a few more people around the country would take the law into their
own hands like Ellie did, we'd have a lot safer country."
---Bob Bair, 36
Thelma, meet D-FENS.
[ And unfortunately, we aren't in a theater.]
>What you seem to be missing, Lance, is that Thelma did not kill the
>would-be rapist because he called her a bitch. She killed him because
>he tried to rape Louise.
Then she would have blown him away as he pulled back (a safe distance)
from Louise. Which, in most courts, would probably have been ruled a
justifiable shoot.
>Sure, she walked away at first, but the incident was far from defused.
Walking away, then calmly turning and firing on an unarmed man
establishes pre-meditation. I'm not a legal expert by any means, but the
difference would appear to be the difference between freedom
(manslaughter?) and a rather lengthy prison sentence for murder one.
The taunt acted as a trigger in Thelma for a _lifetime_ of rage. She
murdered. And Ellie Nesler is charged with murder, too. Protecting her
son??! How can she do that, now? From a jail cell??
Driver isn't the only pervert stalking the land.
What lessons does Nesler's son take from his mother's action?
It seems that with all the options open to her characters at the
turning point in "Thelma and Louise", the fact that Khourie chose to
establish a cold-blooded shooting as an option, indeed, a need, for
embattled women, signalled an exhaustion of spirit and intellect.
She placed Thelma and Louise in a vicious "Catch-22" from which there
was no escape. Ok, fine.
But then to label her work as "feminist visionary"?? A female "buddy
movie"?? "Uplifting"? Right.
>The would-be rapist knew how incendiary the situation was when he called
>her a bitch--his need to have the last word, to win the fight, really,
>was his undoing.
But this isn't high school. If verbal taunts justify physical
destruction, if a smirk warrants five bullets in the head (regardless of
what the man was on trial for), you're validating chaos.
Should the mothers of Jeffery Dahmer's victims have dismembered him in
court? How far do you want to take this?
If the System is so bad (and it's quite rank) you feel the need to
take a life to achieve "justice", then what you're really calling for is
revolution.
June, I posit that you and Pat S. (to a degree) and the Nesler
sympathizers (all the way) share the same "emotional lap" as the
"gangster rappers" who place pictures of enraged black men blowing away
crooked cops on their album covers.
Do you actually think the Jamestown, CA folks would be as supportive
of Rodney King as they are for Ellie Nesler, if he took a weapon and shot
the four officers who beat him to a pulp (nearly killing him)??
Ay, the contradiction is the rub.
On Fri, 9 Apr 1993 13:27:19 GMT, p...@brutus.aa.ab.com,
in Message-ID: <1993Apr9.1...@icd.ab.com> writes:
>I felt the injustice, the rage, and later the desperation that T&H felt.
>And it felt good to see them do something about agaisnt their oppressors.
Which "works" until someone sees YOU as the oppressor, and _you're_
staring down the wrong end of a .45 or a baseball bat.
Ask Reginald Denny about this aspect of catharsis.
If I needed food, and the difference between your position and that of
many of the LA rioters was a biscuit, I'd starve. ;)
When's the "block party", and what are you going to name the "baby"?
On 9 Apr 1993 13:52:27 GMT, zacc...@mtl.mit.edu (Carolyn Zaccaria),
in Message-ID: <1q3v2r...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> writes:
>Hey KIDS!
Yo.
>I just gotta say here that I can picture you two (June and Lance) on tv
>on a talk show airing your views, remember like Brooke and Jack? :)
All too brief a sub-storyline, IMO. :)
>You both have valid points (from what I could follow) and interesting
>things to say! I could also picture you both like Siskel and Ebert only
>in much more detail, the show would have to be at least an hour! :) (only
>one's a female! :)).
CAZ, have you seen the interracial co-ed film reviewers on MTV's "The
Big Picture"?
Ah, the ratings we could generate, June... :)))
---------
Lance Sanders
sta...@genesis.mcs.com "Control your emotion,
GE Mail: L.Sanders6 or it will control you."
V: (312) 667-5958
brutus.aa.ab.com
>>I felt the injustice, the rage, and later the desperation that T&H felt.
>>And it felt good to see them do something about agaisnt their oppressors.
>
Then Lance wrote:
> Which "works" until someone sees YOU as the oppressor, and _you're_
>staring down the wrong end of a .45 or a baseball bat.
> Ask Reginald Denny about this aspect of catharsis.
>
Didnt say it "works"; didnt say it was right. Said it
felt good to watch it in a movie. Wouldnt feel so hot
in real life. I didnt realize Reginald Denny was
taunting or hurting the men who dragged him from his
truck and beat him --right guy, right? I thought he
was attacked simply because he was a white guy and
taken as a symbol of the oppressors. The would-be
rapist was not merely a symbol of the oppressors, he
was one of them. (That doesnt make it "right" in
real life, but it makes for an interesting movie) I hope I am
never an oppressor. If I am, I hope my "victims"
have mercy (and leave the bats at home), and if I'm not,
I hope I am never taken as a symbol of some group which is.
Non-violence is great and I admire those who practice it.
I'm not so non-violent that I skip or discound movies with
violence in them, I guess. I admit I found this bit
of voilence easier to swallow than, say, watching Arnold
blow up dozens of "bad guys". Maybe I just identified
with the protagonists more.
We all have our say....
Carolyn Zaccaria
>difference would appear to be the difference between freedom
>(manslaughter?) and a rather lengthy prison sentence for murder one.
I think it is up to the courts and the jury's to decide whether
a case is factually self defense. This is such a "can of worms"!
There have also been some where the child murders the abusvie
parent. I guess we can all have our opinions, but no one beside
the judge and the jury can make the decision. I personally think
the guy in T&L deserved everything he got, but that is my opinion
and if someone agrees or disagrees with me that is their right.
I don't condone violence in any form but I understand justification
and retribution. My SO asked me if I would kill a man who tried to
rape me, or held me at knife or gun point and I told him I didn't
think I could but I have never and hope to never be in the
situation and try to find out. I think there are soo many cases
where this is an issue and I think each case is individual and
requires giving it great thought. And of course this is where the
judge and the jury come in...then we are getting into our judicial
system, and I don't think we oughta :) I wasn't planning on getting
into this (I swear) but yall got me thinking...(thanks sorta :))
This is a sad subject and I like happy subjects :)
> But then to label her work as "feminist visionary"?? A female "buddy
>movie"?? "Uplifting"? Right.
Lance, this is how this movie came across to some of us females. As
I said before, I just give it entertainment value and tried not to take
it too seriously.
>
> But this isn't high school. If verbal taunts justify physical
>destruction, if a smirk warrants five bullets in the head (regardless of
>what the man was on trial for), you're validating chaos.
I think only because men have always been allowed to be substantiated
through violence (in the movies) and women just were entertained in
the fantasy of the idea, ala retribution.
> Should the mothers of Jeffery Dahmer's victims have dismembered him in
>court? How far do you want to take this?
Sure. why not! (just kidding!) no but make the bastard suffer! in prison
or whatever. How the hell do we have all the answers? :)
> If the System is so bad (and it's quite rank) you feel the need to
>take a life to achieve "justice", then what you're really calling for is
>revolution.
Nah, all we wanted to have was a little fun! :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Actually, that *IS* what T&L set out to do! They just got sidetracked...
:)
> CAZ, have you seen the interracial co-ed film reviewers on MTV's "The
>Big Picture"?
> Ah, the ratings we could generate, June... :)))
No Lance, I do not get MTV because I don't have cable, however I might
get it soon. I will be sure to look for this if I do!
CAZ
AJ
>a "blackploitation" film, and a black man is incapable of assuming
>(understanding) a white feminine frame of reference --- we're all doomed. ;)
....unfortunately this is simply too true today.
> Let me be more specific. "Thelma and Louise" is a "femploitation"
>film: two troubled women take an impromptu road trip, give into their
>"dark side", commit murder and robbery (and adultery), then perform a
>double-suicide off a cliff.
> Without all the hype and metaphorical allusions (the last still-shot),
>it's a two star "B" movie, at best.
Why would another woman want to make a femploitation film???
> It was Louise who had been roughed up in the parking lot. Thelma
>prevented a rape. Louise had not been sexually molested. They decided
>not to call the police.
> Thelma got pissed - and killed. D-FENS got pissed - and went psycho.
Hm...I wonder how men feel when they are almost "raped"? Do they go
"PSYCHO" maybe????
> No it doesn't. She made a serious mistake. Her rage was justified, her
>act was not.
>
> If you can't keep your rage in check, or sublimate it, you're as
>dangerous to society as your oppressors.
Is that mother who killed her child's molester dangerous to society?
Hm...good question.
> When you glorify the anti-hero, as was the case in "Thelma and
>Louise", IMO, you invalidate them as sympathetic figures.
Yep...guess we better get rid of the sundance kid, billy the kid,
bonnie and clyde, etc......but then again, they were never nearly
raped (that we know of)....
I gotta say here....when I was young (like gradeschool young..I'm still
young!) my girl friends and I used to play "Charlie's Angels" (an oxymoron
in itself) and we would go around froofing up our hair and doing our
nails. :) Just recently I saw a few young girls playing T&L (I wanna
be Thelma!!!) and running around going "bang bang! yer dead!" (something
I definitely heard a lot of from young boys). SO is it wrong for these
young girls to be participating in some of the same things that young
boys are? Hm.....you be the judge.
T&L may not have said much for women in your eyes lance, but it was a
damn fun movie for me to (and several of my friends) to watch, which is
what I think it was intended to be.
-aj
Edie Cheng
>The only other options were surrender (which they both dismissed) or to
>turn and fire on the massive police force, which, again, would have been
>suicide.
>
> Where there's life, there's HOPE.
>
>
>
>On Fri, 9 Apr 1993 03:50:54 GMT, le...@linac.fnal.gov (June Cummins
>Lewis), in Message-ID: <!K-XK...@linac.fnal.gov> writes:
>
>>What you seem to be missing, Lance, is that Thelma did not kill the
>>would-be rapist because he called her a bitch. She killed him because
>>he tried to rape Louise.
>
> Walking away, then calmly turning and firing on an unarmed man
>establishes pre-meditation. I'm not a legal expert by any means, but the
>difference would appear to be the difference between freedom
>(manslaughter?) and a rather lengthy prison sentence for murder one.
Lance, you're right. In a court of law they probably would call that
pre-meditation. But in terms of what happened, I really don't think
that Thelma was *thinking*. His last remark snapped something inside
of her and she reacted. Violently.
> It seems that with all the options open to her characters at the
>turning point in "Thelma and Louise", the fact that Khourie chose to
>establish a cold-blooded shooting as an option, indeed, a need, for
>embattled women, signalled an exhaustion of spirit and intellect.
> She placed Thelma and Louise in a vicious "Catch-22" from which there
>was no escape. Ok, fine.
> But then to label her work as "feminist visionary"?? A female "buddy
>movie"?? "Uplifting"? Right.
Well, I saw the movie again on HBO as well. I don't think Khourie was
glorifying the kill or trying make look like the right thing to do. After
Thelma killed the guy, her reaction (and mine) was ohshitohshit.
The movie was an indictment of the system, and the fact that women often
put up with shit all their lives with no recourse. And that women who do
take their rapists to court usually find *themselves* on trial. And that
the fact that the system sucks has been talk showed and Newsweek'd and
depicted in movies such as "The Accused", but it never changes.
When Thelma shot that man, she gave up everything. Her life, her relationship,
her security. And so did Louise. But in actuality, did they really have
to give up much? No, because especially for Louise, there wasn't that much
to lose.
What was uplifting about the movie, to me, was the change that we see
in both Thelma and Louise. In the fact that, even if they could go back
home without any penalty (no murder trial, robbery trial, etc.) I doubt
either of them would have.
The movie made me realise my anger and frustration. And vicariously
experience their escape. You say Lance, that where there is life there is
HOPE. For T&L, that was no longer true. Freedom, escape by any means
(death) was HOPE.
I think that someone (June?) was right in saying that we each are going
to hold our own opinions on what this movie meant, what it was about,
etc. I don't think we'll see eye-to-eye on it, but I wanted to share
some of my experience.
Edie
June Cummins Lewis
Let me start this off by making clear that in some ways, you and I are
in harmony, Lance. I completely agree with you that vigilante justice
is not an effective means to an end. I don't think that what that
mother in California did was "cool" or right. I don't think that what
makes T&L a good movie is that she killed the attacker. I think the
premise of Falling Down sucks.
Where we differ is in our evaluation of T&L. Your basis for disliking
the film is that you don't like its portrayal of vigilante justice as
a viable option. My basis for liking it is that it showed women's
anger and frustration, and it showed two women on the lam, doing
something exciting, and it effectively portrayed the no-win situation
many women are in. That doesn't mean I condone vigilante justice. It
means that I was able to appreciate the movie in spite of Thelma's
action (which, I repeat, I understood the impulse for).
> Where there's life, there's HOPE.
Basically, I agree with this, but I don't think it applies in the case
of T&L. They would have been thrown in jail for life or given the
death penalty for what Thelma did.
>>>>It's much more like the woman in California who shot the man who molested
>>>>her little boy. That wasn't self-defense, but it wasn't indulgence.
>>>
>>> Hardly the same circumstance, June.
>>
>>That's funny--in my mind, the two sets of circumstances are amazingly
>>similar. In both cases, a person was sexually assaulted. In both cases,
>>an older, maternal figure (or mother) sought revenge. In both cases, it
>>was the final insult (the name-calling in T&L, the smirk in the
>>California case) that drove the maternal woman over the edge.
>
> June, I've just read two more half-page articles on the case, and I
>now agree with you on this point. The murder in "Thelma and Louise" and
>the murder in the Jamestown, CA courtroom are strikingly similar - and
>equally chilling.
>
Thanks!
>"There's a lot to be said for frontier justice. It really makes people
> think about what they value." --- George Enscoe, 83
>
>"Five bullets in the head was too good for him...she done real good."
> ---Danny Gill, 38
>
>"If a few more people around the country would take the law into their
> own hands like Ellie did, we'd have a lot safer country."
> ---Bob Bair, 36
I completely disagree with the sentiments expressed here.
> Walking away, then calmly turning and firing on an unarmed man
>establishes pre-meditation. I'm not a legal expert by any means, but the
>difference would appear to be the difference between freedom
>(manslaughter?) and a rather lengthy prison sentence for murder one.
If I were a good lawyer, I think I might be able to convince a jury
that there was no premeditation, even after she walked away. If she
left the scene and then came back the next day and killed the guy,
premediation might be argued. This was all one heated, enraged
situation. We'll never agree on this one, so let's drop it.
> But then to label her work as "feminist visionary"?? A female "buddy
>movie"?? "Uplifting"? Right.
I didn't use any of these phrases, just to keep the record straight.
I said I liked the movie and found it thrilling for the reasons stated
above.
> But this isn't high school. If verbal taunts justify physical
>destruction, if a smirk warrants five bullets in the head (regardless of
>what the man was on trial for), you're validating chaos.
I guess I have to repeat that it was a lot more than the taunt that
caused Thelma to fire the bullet.
> June, I posit that you and Pat S. (to a degree) and the Nesler
>sympathizers (all the way) share the same "emotional lap" as the
>"gangster rappers" who place pictures of enraged black men blowing away
>crooked cops on their album covers.
I don't see how you got the impression that I favor vigilante justice,
but since you did, please see my remarks above.
> Do you actually think the Jamestown, CA folks would be as supportive
>of Rodney King as they are for Ellie Nesler, if he took a weapon and shot
>the four officers who beat him to a pulp (nearly killing him)??
No ***ing way. Complete agreement here, Lance.
> CAZ, have you seen the interracial co-ed film reviewers on MTV's "The
>Big Picture"?
> Ah, the ratings we could generate, June... :)))
Move over Siskel and Ebert, you need some new blood (personally, I
think Lance and I would be a much more interesting team!).
Karen Johnson Morgan
>I write:
>>> It was Louise who had been roughed up in the parking lot. Thelma
>>>prevented a rape. Louise had not been sexually molested. They decided
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Horse shit she hadn't.
>
> Pardon. Louise had not been _raped_.
>
>[In the unedited release I saw on HBO last year. Is there another
> version?? I assume you want me to be aware that what her attacker was
> doing to her in the parking lot, as well as what he had done to her on
> the dance floor, was sexual molestation. I agree. I stand corrected.]
I'm sorry, I'm going to pick nits here. This is driving me absolutely
up the wall!!!!
Y'all have the characters reversed -- THELMA was played by Geena Davis.
LOUISE was played by Susan Sarandon.
Now back to your previous discussion....
Karen
P.S. But Louise *had* been raped ... in Texas.
--
Karen J. Morgan -- U Texas Ctr for Space Research, Austin, Tex
ph: (512) 471-5573 fax: (512) 471-3570
email: ka...@louise.ae.utexas.edu alternate: joh...@emx.utexas.edu
Lance Sanders
On Tue, 13 Apr 93 18:28:26 GMT, pat...@oz.plymouth.edu (Pat Steward),
in Message-ID: <1993Apr13.1...@oz.plymouth.edu> writes:
>I got tired of this thread long ago, but it seems it will NOT die.
>
>Lance, tons o' women have told you how they felt when they saw the
>film. I don't know why you feel you have to convert those who
>disagree with you, especially since you have a snowball's chance of
>doing so.
Pat, I'm not trying to covert, but address POV's.
I felt the thread achieved closure after the exchange between June and
myself, but then 5 more posts came in with specific questions addressed
to me. And they were different facets of the argument.
Didn't feel any need to ignore them. Think of how many people are out
there; and they don't get posts at the same time. We could see someone
respond to the original series next week! :)
Threads close when they close.
Not when you want them to.
---------
Lance "Ieeee, ji WHAMMA!" Sanders
sta...@genesis.mcs.com / GE Mail: L.Sanders6 / V: (312) 667-5958
Pat Steward
>
>>Lance, tons o' women have told you how they felt when they saw the
>>film. I don't know why you feel you have to convert those who
>>disagree with you, especially since you have a snowball's chance of
>>doing so.
>
> Pat, I'm not trying to covert, but address POV's.
Then SAY it's a POV, and I'll back off. What I"m objecting to is
phrasing it such that it's presented as a fact and that the original
poster is wrong.
> Threads close when they close.
> Not when you want them to.
Snark snark! :)
Lance Sanders
On Wed, 14 Apr 93 15:18:01 GMT, pat...@oz.plymouth.edu (Pat Steward),
in Message-ID: <1993Apr14....@oz.plymouth.edu> writes:
>> Pat, I'm not trying to convert, but address POV's.
>
>Then SAY it's a POV, and I'll back off. What I"m objecting to is
>phrasing it such that it's presented as a fact and that the original
>poster is wrong.
This reminds me of an incident involving an instructor I had in
college.
We would engage in heated classroom debate, and I had the habit (left-
over from grade school) of prefacing every other point with "I think", "I
believe", "in my opinion", etc.
One day, in the middle of a response, he stood up, and without
warning, threw a (rather thick) textbook at my head!
"Mr. Sanders!", he screamed. "We KNOW it's your opinion! _You're_ the
speaker! State your position boldly and get on with it!"
Bingo. My "philosophical stuttering" was cured.
I haven't misrepresented facts in the thread, have gladly accepted
errata correction (names) and upbraiding for my seemingly narrow
definition of sexual molestation, and have not accused a poster of being
"wrong" for _having_ an opinion.
You're equating the strength of my delivery with personal attack, and
projecting your own insecurities into measured debate.
[See what I mean? That's not necessarily a fact.
But it is quite a strong opinion.]
"I'd like to solve the puzzle, Pat."
[Buh-ha-ha-ha-ha!]
Pat Steward
>
>
> You're equating the strength of my delivery with personal attack, and
>projecting your own insecurities into measured debate.
ROTFL!!!
This *might* be my last word on this subject:
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Carolyn Zaccaria
>This *might* be my last word on this subject:
You guys never give up do you? :)
Geraldo is calling you and so are Thelma and Louise from heaven :)
I'd like to see this action live, kiddies...:)
Carolyn "what other movies (TAN) do we wanna discuss?" Zaccaria
AJ
LAWNMOWERMAN? :) :) :) :) :) :) ;)
-aj
Mitch Harris
> This reminds me of an incident involving an instructor I had in
>college.
> We would engage in heated classroom debate, and I had the habit (left-
>over from grade school) of prefacing every other point with "I think", "I
>believe", "in my opinion", etc.
> One day, in the middle of a response, he stood up, and without
>warning, threw a (rather thick) textbook at my head!
Well, this has nothing to do with "T & L", but it does have to do with
an instructor. My 9th grade algebra teacher, Mr. Pendleton...well, let
me tell you about him first.
Mr. Pendleton was what we called a male spinster. The poor man looked
awful. He was literally pear-shaped, balding, wore Gawd-awful
black-rimmed wingtip glasses, and always work these dull black pants and
a long-sleeve gray plaid shirt. Everyday. He had a *very* squeaky voice,
and the most persistent "5 o'clock shadow" I ever saw. (He shaved in the
teacher's restroom twice a day, at lucn and recess...we'd hear the
electric razor going...hmmm....I guess it was an electric razor, at
least that's what we thought it was!) Every Monday in class he'd tell
his about his weekend. "I went home and feed the cats (he must have had
a dozen), took my sleeping pills, and slept all weekend." We heard this
same tell every Monday. He used to make us girls line up in front of the
class at the beginning of class and measure our hemlines with a ruler to
make sure they weren't too short. Just an extremely weird person.
One day Mr. Pendleton was standing in front of his desk, reading
something out of the Algebra book, when suddenly he *threw* the book to
the floor and started stamping around! We're looking at each other,
cracking up...this went on for about 30 seconds. He then calmly bent
over, picked up his book, and started reading. Midway through the
first sentence I guess he realized what he did looked strange, because
he looked up from his book and uttered one word....."roach." Then went
back to reading.
Mr. Pendleton never came back after that first year. Hmmm....guess that
was kinda long, but Lance, when you mentioned teachers throwing
books...oh, well. Nevermind.
(posted for one long-winded missus, Beverly H.)
[but I love her anyways - M.]
>---------
>Lance "Ieeee, ji WHAMMA!" Sanders
>sta...@genesis.mcs.com / GE Mail: L.Sanders6 / V: (312) 667-5958
--
Mitch Harris | New Technology Inc.
(205)-544-2846 | 700 Boulevard South, #401
drvax3!har...@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov | Huntsville, AL 35802
Carolyn Zaccaria
> "Mr. Sanders!", he screamed. "We KNOW it's your opinion! _You're_ the
>speaker! State your position boldly and get on with it!"
Lance, this struck me funny and is typically "you".
> Bingo. My "philosophical stuttering" was cured.
Maybe this experience is why you worked so hard at it, hey? :)
Well, in my opinion...:)))))
CAZ
Lance Sanders
On 16 Apr 1993 21:54:05 GMT, zacc...@mtl.mit.edu (Carolyn Zaccaria),
in Message-ID: <1qn9tt...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> writes:
>> Bingo. My "philosophical stuttering" was cured.
>
>Maybe this experience is why you worked so hard at it, hey? :)
>Well, in my opinion...:)))))
Nah, manipulating and synergizing ideas has always been play for me,
not work.
The "hiccup cure" was instantaneous. ;)
The one thing in my life I _really_ worked hard to overcome was a
"mental (Rubik's Cube) block" I had in tennis.
Solved that 'mutha in '87. :)
---------
Lance "Free At Last" Sanders
sta...@genesis.MCS.COM / GE Mail: L.Sanders6 / V: (312) 667-5958
ahel...@umiami.ir.miami.edu
>
> Well, this has nothing to do with "T & L", but it does have to do with
> an instructor.
{Great Story Deleted}
That reminded me of one from when I was in junior high, also Algebra class.
The teacher was young, in her first job out of college. This was in the early
70's, and she was really cute, blonde hair, blue eyes, etc. Dressed cool too,
in mini-skirts and withit accessories.
Okay, so one day she was standing up at the front of the class teaching, turned
to put something on the blackboard, twisted her legs wrong and ended up falling
onto her knees. That was bad/embarrasssing enough for the poor woman, but the
hysterical part was she was wearing sandals and the *BUCKLES* got tangled
together! So there she was, on her knees with her shoes sort of welded
shut...that cool teacher thrashed around for a very long couple of minutes
before she managed to wiggle out of one shoe, get to her feet and hobble over
to her desk to put herself back together.
Did a terminal number on her cool reputation :).
Yo "and that's what I remember most about Algebra" Helmers