No Censorship, Please
Greg Eichelberger
>AIDS jokes are about as funny as breast cancer jokes. I know there are
>people who find great humor in both, but none of them are people I'd
>voluntarily hang around with.
I wouldn't neccesarily hang around with them, either. But I still don't
want someone telling me what jokes I can or cannot utter or listen to.
I've never heard of a breast cancer joke myself, but back in the mid-1980's,
National Lampoon used to run AIDS spoofs rather frequently. Top Ten Ways To
Get AIDS (10-Going to an Elton John concert, 9-Walking Andy Warhol's dog,
etc.). Some were funny, others weren't, like most joke premises.
Greg Eichelberger
John Carney
I tend to agree with the idea that censorship causes far more problems
than it solves. It's true that some humor can be tasteless or cruel, but
it's not automatically wrong for there to be humor on any given topic.
Black humor (in the sense of morbid) has popped up in many different
situations, and it can often be a release for tensions and anxieties we
have little other means of dealing with.
John Cleese, who made his share of supposedly-sacreligious humor as part
of Monty Python, once told an interview he thought it would be impossible
to make fun of Jesus Christ. Christ, Cleese said, would be ultimately
flexible and would have no shortcomings to caricature. What movies like
``Life Of Brian'' are doing is not making fun of Jesus, but making fun of
our human attitudes and stereotypes.
Similarly, a lot of black humor is not making fun of tragedy so much as
it is making fun of our human attitudes toward tragedy. It's still in bad
taste to make certain jokes in certain circumstances, but taste and
compassion have never been enforceable.
--
John I. Carney | Mountain T.O.P. (Tennessee Outreach Project)
-----------------------------| Celebrating 20 Years of Ministry
jca...@edge.ercnet.com | 1975-1995
cek...@pomona.edu
> On 23 Apr 1995, John Carney wrote:
>> Greg Eichelberger (i...@ccrwest.org) wrote:
>> : On April 20, 1995, steve_...@qmail14.trw.sp.com <Steve Hoffman> wrote:
>>
>> : >AIDS jokes are about as funny as breast cancer jokes. I know there are
>> : >people who find great humor in both, but none of them are people I'd
>> : >voluntarily hang around with.
>>
>> : I wouldn't neccesarily hang around with them, either. But I still don't
>> : want someone telling me what jokes I can or cannot utter or listen to.
>>
>> : I've never heard of a breast cancer joke myself, but back in the mid-1980's,
>> : National Lampoon used to run AIDS spoofs rather frequently. Top Ten Ways To
>> : Get AIDS (10-Going to an Elton John concert, 9-Walking Andy Warhol's dog,
>> : etc.). Some were funny, others weren't, like most joke premises.
on how you construct the joke, where the exaggeration is. Because every joke
needs one thing that's way out of proportion."
My take on this is that you should only mock someone for things that are
_within their power to change_. Ideas fall into this category (when the
holders of them ought to know better), and physical attributes, nationalities,
handicaps, etc., do not. It's the difference between Bill Hicks satirizing
White Male Reality, and Howard Stern reinforcing stereotypes by ridiculing,
say, stutterers. The Sterns of this world have been complaining very loudly of
censorship these days, but they're not really being censored- they're just
being tuned out by those who consider such humor cruel. (Note that I'm not
saying that my view should be imposed on everyone, or that anyone designated as
an official member of an "oppressed" group should be above criticism when it's
deserved- that's what distinguishes "political correctness" from normal human
sensitivity.)
The problem with the National Lampoon gag is that it suggests that homosexuals
are promiscuous- therefore beware when you find yourself near one, or
especially a large group of them, because you never know what you might catch.
It's only a short step from here to inferring that homosexuals deserve to catch
AIDS if they're going to be so careless. The whole premise is riddled with
prejudices, many of which Jason exploded eloquently in his response. No matter
how cleverly the idea was executed, I can't really find it funny.
This sounds really preachy, doesn't it? It happens every time I try getting up
on a soapbox... At any rate, it's just MHO, as the cliche goes.
Chris Ekman = cek...@pomona.edu
"It is not bad to be born in a depraved age: you will get a reputation for
virtue at a bargain price." -- Montaigne
Jason Cohen
> Greg Eichelberger (i...@ccrwest.org) wrote:
> : On April 20, 1995, steve_...@qmail14.trw.sp.com <Steve Hoffman> wrote:
>
> : >AIDS jokes are about as funny as breast cancer jokes. I know there are
> : >people who find great humor in both, but none of them are people I'd
> : >voluntarily hang around with.
>
> : I wouldn't neccesarily hang around with them, either. But I still don't
> : want someone telling me what jokes I can or cannot utter or listen to.
>
> : I've never heard of a breast cancer joke myself, but back in the mid-1980's,
> : National Lampoon used to run AIDS spoofs rather frequently. Top Ten Ways To
> : Get AIDS (10-Going to an Elton John concert, 9-Walking Andy Warhol's dog,
> : etc.). Some were funny, others weren't, like most joke premises.
>
> than it solves. It's true that some humor can be tasteless or cruel, but
> it's not automatically wrong for there to be humor on any given topic.
> Black humor (in the sense of morbid) has popped up in many different
> situations, and it can often be a release for tensions and anxieties we
> have little other means of dealing with.
>
> John Cleese, who made his share of supposedly-sacreligious humor as part
> of Monty Python, once told an interview he thought it would be impossible
> to make fun of Jesus Christ. Christ, Cleese said, would be ultimately
> flexible and would have no shortcomings to caricature. What movies like
> ``Life Of Brian'' are doing is not making fun of Jesus, but making fun of
> our human attitudes and stereotypes.
>
> Similarly, a lot of black humor is not making fun of tragedy so much as
> it is making fun of our human attitudes toward tragedy. It's still in bad
> taste to make certain jokes in certain circumstances, but taste and
> compassion have never been enforceable.
*sighs, and pulls on the rubber gloves* Yeah, but there's a difference
between black humor and jokes that foster misconceptions and ultimately
paranoia and loathing. It's possible to joke about a sensitive subject
(it usually helps if the person joking about it is already directly
affected by the thing he's joking about) without playing upon hateful
stereotypes in order to manufacture a punchline. In the example Greg
gave, the "ways to get AIDS" may seem patently absurd to us, but there
are still a HELL of a lot of people out there who think that you can
contract AIDS just by breathing the same air as someone who's HIV
positive, and whether or not they recognize that list as a joke, it WILL
cement their attitudes about the susceptability of the virus and can do
nothing but erode any tolerance or acceptance they may have towards
situations even vaguely similar to those National Lampoon so frivolously
reeled off. It's a really dangerous thing to do in a society where our
cultural education is so media-oriented and our collective knowledge of
hard facts about the AIDS pandemic so sparse. There ARE ways to defang
the specter of AIDS, but mainstream magazines should not be playing
around with finding them until everybody realizes just how much of a
horrific thing it really is. Otherwise, the deaths of millions and
millions of people are horribly trivialized. On the other hand, there
are people for whom AIDS *does* need some lightening--HIV positive and
AIDS infected people themselves, who have seen friend after friend fall
wasted and decrepit to the side of the road and have nothing to do but wait
until they themselves eventually succumb--and there are appropriate mediums
that deal with it. For example, there is a magazine--run exclusively by
people who have contracted HIV--that has been running a feature for the
past few years called "AIDS Barbie." It depicts the life and times of
an ordinary Barbie doll as she goes through the stages of the AIDS virus:
losing her hair, developing KS lesions, becoming bedridden. Each
successive issue unveils new fashion accessories for the AIDS Barbie,
like the Malibu IV Drip and Barbie's Fancy Respirator. Sometimes she
even gets a new home--like Barbie's Dream Hospice. Of course, she's got
AIDS Ken (who wishes they both had been just a little bit more careful)
to keep her company on that long road to utter debility and death. Yes,
it's gruesome. Yes, it's macabre. But it also serves a really valuable
purpose...helping AIDS infected people laugh just a little at themselves
and at the rest of the world. By imbuing an icon like Barbie with AIDS
it's symbolically putting the virus in the living room of everyone who
doesn't care about AIDS because "it only happens to queers, blacks, and
junkies." And the people with AIDS *do* laugh. It's a healthy kind of
black humor, unlike an editor at National Lampoon deciding to run AIDS
jokes to fill space and make money. Censorship isn't the issue, and
neither is taking a sharp stick to sacred cows. It's about the wrong
people doing the wrong things the wrong way and keeping alive really,
REALLY dangerous myths.
I'm sorry I couldn't have found a more appropriate venue for this, but
it's something everyone needs to hear.
Jason.
j...@acpub.duke.edu
fRiNgE
CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED
CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED
CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED
Matt
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Matthew Duhan mdu...@fas.harvard.edu
Look, when I want my opinions I'll ask me for them!
HRSFA, IGP, MST3K, TMBG, MP, LA, DNA--any more initials and I'll go insane
DoN'T PAniC!
Mikey Dreamy Inglis
write the following? Read the book:
>I've never heard of a breast cancer joke myself
In "Out There", one comedian who was HIV+ mentioned his going to a
support group for people with various terminal diseases. One of the
other members was a woman with breast cancer. When she returned after
having a mastectomy, he shouted: "Hey, Nancy! Nice TIT!"
She laughed, and his T-cells went up.
(There, now you've heard one.)
-
HEY! You're the guy that made my head hot! Well,
you're not going to make my friend's heads hot, mister!
-- The Tick
Jennifer Lynn Hill
: I'm sorry I couldn't have found a more appropriate venue for this, but
: it's something everyone needs to hear.
You should hear him rant about the post-impressionism of TV's Frank.
--
EvilJen-Mrs. Jasoooon!-evi...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu-MiSTie #49332-she of .sigs
"How about some sugar for Blair?"-Blair Dillman
"Smart boy would do well to put his leg up on something like that."-'94 Con
"Mmmm, mmm verb"-Derceto
Greg Eichelberger
>Yeah but there's a difference between black humor and jokes that foster mis-
>conceptions and ultimately paranoia and loathing.
>[long explanation deleted]
I'm sure there are. I just don't want you or anyone else telling me what is
or isn't funny, or what I have a right to hear or say, that's all.
Look, first of all, this post was sent to the wrong newsgroup. It was
originally meant to be sent to rec.arts.movies.past-films in answer to a
Steve Hoffman, who said that we shouldn't make jokes about people with A.I.D.S.
My question was why is A.I.D.S. the "sacred cow" of diseases all of a sudden
when cancer, lung and heart disease and others kill many times more each
year than A.I.D.S.
I would never point at someone with any disease and make fun of them, but I
also don't want that right (however loathsome it may seem to you) forcibly
taken away from anyone.
I cannot control someone's paranoia and loathing. That's their problem. But
I am certainly not going to ammend or legislate my feelings and opinions on
the chance that someone will misunderstand or misrepresent what I say.
I think what John Carney said was right. We, as Americans, don't create
black humor to hurt other people (we shouldnt, anyway), we just use that humor
to help us get over certain tragic situation. Sometimes the biggest laughs
occur after a funeral. Not disrespecting the deceased, but compensating for
our collective grief.
I'm surprised we haven't heard any jokes about the Okalahoma City bombing,
yet. It's about that time.
Greg Eichelberger
PS-Jason, is there a "Cancer Barbie" or a "Stroke Barbie" on the market,
yet? Maybe there should be, just to be fair.
Jason Cohen
> My question was why is A.I.D.S. the "sacred cow" of diseases all of a sudden
> when cancer, lung and heart disease and others kill many times more each
> year than A.I.D.S.
I'd love to see the statistics for this. You got 'em?
Jason, noting that there are 33,000 homeless people with AIDS on the
streets of New York.
j...@acpub.duke.edu
(And 1 out of every 4 people in the Bronx has AIDS, and 1 out of every 10
teenagers in New York, and 1 out of every 25 babies born in New York is
infected with the AIDS virus.)
Greg Eichelberger
>On 26 Apr 1995, Greg Eichelberger wrote:
>>My question was why is A.I.D.S. the "sacred cow" of diseases all of a sudden
>>when cancer, lung and heart disease and others kill many times more each
>>year than A.I.D.S.
>I'd love to see the statistics for this. You got 'em?
Sure, but before I post them, is it really your contention that cancer, heart
and lung and other diseases DO NOT kill many times more people anually than
the A.I.D.S. virus?!
Oh well.
Deaths Per Year-1992
Heart Disease-489,340 died of heart attacks in 1992-another 145,340 died as
a result of strokes-5,700 infants died of post-natal heart defects-rheumatic
heart disease killed another 6,000
TOTAL: 645,380 or 40.2% of all deaths
Cancer (Oral, Lung, Breast, Stomach, etc.)-killed over 500,000 people in 1992.
Heart Disease & Cancer TOTAL-1,145,380
From the World Almanac & Book Of Facts-1993 (pp. 177)-"In January of 1992,
the Centers For Disease Control reported that the U.S. had 206,392 people
whose immune system were severly weakened by A.I.D.S., resulting in 133,232
deaths."
1,145,380 is approximately nine times more than 133,232.
Other Source-The Encyclopedia Britannica.
>Jason, noting that there are 33,000 homeless people with AIDS on the streets
>of New York
Now THAT'S what I'd call a questionable statistic.
And is that a good reason for not being allowed to make jokes on the subject?
And now enough with this morbid stuff and back to some top-of-the-line,
quality entertainment like discussions on "Red Zone Cuba", or "The Creeping
Terror", or "The Beast Of Yucca Flats" or "High School Bigsh-" uh, on
second thought......
>(......and one out of every 25 babies born in New York is......)
Spanky: It says here in the book, that every fourth child born is a Chinaman.
Froggy: (Counting on his fingers) Oh no! My mom's gonna have her fourth
baby next month!
Greg Eichelberger
Jamie Plummer
> On 26 Apr 1995, Greg Eichelberger wrote:
> > My question was why is A.I.D.S. the "sacred cow" of diseases all of a sudden
> > when cancer, lung and heart disease and others kill many times more each
> > year than A.I.D.S.
>
> I'd love to see the statistics for this. You got 'em?
Jason, that's rather common knowledge.
> Jason, noting that there are 33,000 homeless people with AIDS on the
> streets of New York.
> j...@acpub.duke.edu
> (And 1 out of every 4 people in the Bronx has AIDS, and 1 out of every 10
> teenagers in New York, and 1 out of every 25 babies born in New York is
> infected with the AIDS virus.)
I'd like to see where those numbers came from.
--
Be Seeing You... |"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice...
Jamie Plummer |moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."-AuH2O
jc...@virginia.edu |Onscreen: Vampire drains blood from neck of victim
Kpants | Mike: "This is what Southern Baptists think Catholic Mass is like."
Steven M. Kiefer
anyone begining to look back in shame at the time when we all thought Greg
was the asshole? This is starting to become enough to make me regret
being a liberal.
-Kiefer (that's one "Shoot me, shoot me now!"
jnevins
>I not even going to copy any of this crap, but I'm just wondering:Is
>anyone begining to look back in shame at the time when we all thought Greg
>was the asshole? This is starting to become enough to make me regret
>being a liberal.
No, it's not. At least, not with me.
jess
Roger M. Wilcox
You know, there's some evidence that HIV might not be the cause of AIDS,
or the only cause.
And as far as not allowing "certain" types of humor goes, I can only say,
"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press, or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, or
to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Telling people not to make jokes about X often increases the fear and
hatred of X, since the otherwise-jokesters have to keep their feelings
bottled up. (Explaining why a given joke is flawed, however, works
wonders in educating some misguided souls, but this elucidation won't work
if it's done in anger.)
--
Roger M. Wilcox rog...@cisco.com (a.k.a. tra...@netcom.com (Jeff Boeing))
------------------- I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low. -----------------
MSTie #38188 | Dvorak keyboard - Esperanto - Ross Perot - ProLog - Amiga 2000
| Do I follow lost causes, or what?
Jason Cohen
> I not even going to copy any of this crap, but I'm just wondering:Is
> anyone begining to look back in shame at the time when we all thought Greg
> was the asshole? This is starting to become enough to make me regret
> being a liberal.
Starting to become enough to make ME regret being an American! :) All I
did was rebut a seriously skewed viewpoint with some *facts*,
Kiefer...it's when you start resorting to personal attacks (see Greg's
e'er-so-eloquent followup) that the asshole label starts to apply. But
please, correct me if I'm wrong!
Jason, thanking jess for the moral support.
j...@acpub.duke.edu
jnevins
Jason Cohen
> Jason Cohen writes:
> > On 26 Apr 1995, Greg Eichelberger wrote:
> > > My question was why is A.I.D.S. the "sacred cow" of diseases all of a sudden
> > > when cancer, lung and heart disease and others kill many times more each
> > > year than A.I.D.S.
> >
> > I'd love to see the statistics for this. You got 'em?
>
> Jason, that's rather common knowledge.
Jamie, the word I have a problem with there is "many." And I'm told
Eichelweenie throws a few volumes of stats at me, so I suppose I'll just
have to see.
> > Jason, noting that there are 33,000 homeless people with AIDS on the
> > streets of New York.
> > j...@acpub.duke.edu
> > (And 1 out of every 4 people in the Bronx has AIDS, and 1 out of every 10
> > teenagers in New York, and 1 out of every 25 babies born in New York is
> > infected with the AIDS virus.)
>
>
> I'd like to see where those numbers came from.
_Close to the Knives_ by David Wojnarowicz. He took 'em from New York
City Health Department reports.
Jasoooon! (that's one 'believe it or don't. It's true.')
j...@acpub.duke.edu
Jason Cohen
> On April 28, 1995, j...@acpub.duke.edu <Jason Cohen> wrote:
>
> >>My question was why is A.I.D.S. the "sacred cow" of diseases all of a sudden
> >>when cancer, lung and heart disease and others kill many times more each
> >>year than A.I.D.S.
>
> >I'd love to see the statistics for this. You got 'em?
>
> and lung and other diseases DO NOT kill many times more people anually than
> the A.I.D.S. virus?!
I'll respond to that in a second.
> Oh well.
>
> Deaths Per Year-1992
>
> Heart Disease-489,340 died of heart attacks in 1992-another 145,340 died as
> a result of strokes-5,700 infants died of post-natal heart defects-rheumatic
> heart disease killed another 6,000
>
> TOTAL: 645,380 or 40.2% of all deaths
>
> Cancer (Oral, Lung, Breast, Stomach, etc.)-killed over 500,000 people in 1992.
>
> Heart Disease & Cancer TOTAL-1,145,380
>
> From the World Almanac & Book Of Facts-1993 (pp. 177)-"In January of 1992,
> the Centers For Disease Control reported that the U.S. had 206,392 people
> whose immune system were severly weakened by A.I.D.S., resulting in 133,232
> deaths."
>
>1,145,380 is approximately nine times more than 133,232.
>
>Other Source-The Encyclopedia Britannica.
First of all, the "206,392" number is a COMPLETE load of Coleman
Francis movies. I've read a number of books detailing the CDC's willful
ignorance of the breadth of the AIDS virus (really, don't you think the
"Center for Disease Control" would try to play *down* the virulence of a
particular infection, at risk of seeming ineffectual?), but since I don't
have any of them with me, I suppose I'll have to fight this one bare-handed.
Anyway, taking the CDC's estimation as the *minimal* count, this is a 65%
turnover every year of people who are "severely weakened" by AIDS.
That's about as subjective a term as you could ask for, by the way, since
it almost certainly excludes all but the most terminal cases of AIDS.
I've seen (though I can't quote the source off-hand) an estimate of 10
million HIV positive people living in the United States, all the more
eyebrow-raising when you consider the legislation passed banning anyone
with HIV or AIDS from entering this country. All of them are going to
die, barring some medical miracle, and within the next six or seven
years, at that. Not to mention the fact that the virus is *continuing*
to be spread at a terrifying rate; next year 200,000 people will have
replaced the 133,232 (I'll accept your statistic for lack of one of my
own, though I know it's VERY conservative) fatalities on the "severely
weakened" list, and tens if not hundreds of thousands more will have
tested HIV positive. The thing that makes HIV and AIDS so eminently
horrifying is how easily the sharply rising incidence rate could be
controlled through proper (read as: ANY) education and airtime, both
political and through the media. We're only now BEGINNING to institute
AIDS education programs in the schools, though conservative reactionaries
(ears burning, Greggie?) are fighting them every step of the way. White
middle-class America's take on it, or at least the one that politicians
are playing up to, seems to be "It's not affecting me any, let's let it
run its course on the homosexuals and junkies who deserve to get it, and
then it'll die out." That is, if they think about it at all.
Silence=Death, Greg, it's not just a meaningless slogan (though of course
_you've_ never heard it). Fuhrer Helms and his cronies tirelessly
toil towards the ever-noble goal of completely erasing the AIDS virus
from the consciousness of America--by passing legislation denying federal
funding for any program that mentions the word 'homosexuality', by
cutting out any and all AIDS education funding that relates to gays and
lesbians...WITHOUT EXCEPTION. People like former New York Mayor Edward
Koch, ex-head of the FDA Frank Young, Senator Alfonse D'Amato, and
California Representative William Dannemeyer have all played starring
roles in the fight to help America forget about AIDS and the millions of
people in its death throes. If proper programs had been instituted and
literature distributed in 1984--the year the medical community began to
wake up to the fact that they had a pandemic in their midst--if the poor
had been given access to needles and condoms and the knowledge that could
save their lives...the spread of the AIDS virus would be virtually
non-existent by now, and the virus itself all but completely
controlled--and by controlled I don't mean camps for the HIV positive (an
option which Helms has more than once advocated). THIS is the tragedy of
the virus, Greg...this is why it's so much more frightening than heart
disease or lung cancer. What you've done is thrown a concatenation of
diseases at me in one huge lump and claimed them to be more fatal than a
single virus. Well of COURSE more people are dying from them,
Greg...you've listed eight diseases and an etc., which seems to be
"approximately nine times more" diseases than AIDS's *one*. A more
telling statistic than fatalities might be collective years of life lost,
when you consider that the average AIDS death occurs at 35. With the
exception of the post-natal heart defects, I would bet that well over
half of the deaths you cited occurred at age 50 or over. This doesn't
make it any more right, mind you...but when you think about how someone
who passes away from heart disease at age 75 is considered to have died a
'natural death', it makes you wonder. AIDS is anything but natural.
And the last time I checked, neither heart attacks nor anything
else that you mentioned was the least bit contagious. The most that could be
said for any of them in terms of transmittiveness was that they could be
congenital, and guess what? AIDS is *quite* easily passed from mother
to child. The fact remains that cancer and such have been around much
longer than has AIDS. The edge, for better or for worse, has been taken
off of a looming heart condition, especially when you consider the
volumes and volumes of material available out there all about how to eat
right, stay healthy, and avoid just those problems as you describe. I
don't see books and books on the Health & Nutrition shelf at the library
telling you the ways to avoid getting AIDS. Besides, cancer can be lived
with. It's not a death sentence. Tumors can be removed. Even lung cancer
is a disease contracted through years and years of misuse of your body.
They are not immediately terminal illnesses. You don't make *one* mistake and
die five years later. AIDS is unlike any other disease in the world in its
virulence, speed, and opportunism. It cannot be compared to something like
cancer. The problem, Greg, is not that AIDS has "suddenly become the 'sacred
cow'", it's that it HASN'T. People are STILL refusing to give it the
deference it demands, in medical society as well as in popular culture.
Don't make jokes about something you don't understand. When you've read
enough to be able to realize the genuine threat of this virus, you won't
WANT to make jokes about it. After all, what fun is something like:
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Cardinal John O'Connor.
Cardinal John O'Connor who?
Cardinal John O'Connor, the man who runs safe-haven houses for teenage
runaways often forced to resort to hustling and prostitution to stay
alive, keeps them ignorant and puts them at greater risk in order to
maintain his "moral" code, and then tells them it's all their fault as
they lay dying.
You see? AIDS jokes with any truth in them simply aren't funny.
> >Jason, noting that there are 33,000 homeless people with AIDS on the streets
> >of New York
>
> Now THAT'S what I'd call a questionable statistic.
Hmmm...that's the projection given to Koch at a city agency meeting in
1991. His representatives told him not to worry, though, because
the people would be dying so quickly from lack of treatment that no one
would notice a visible increase of homeless on the streets.
> And is that a good reason for not being allowed to make jokes on the subject?
Um...YES.
Oh yeah, and I accidentally mistyped one of the statistics. It was
actually "one teenager in every hundred is HIV positive in New York", and
it came from the same Centers for Disease Control that you find so
irreproachable. And it was "one in every twenty-five babies in Brooklyn."
Still one in every four in the Bronx, though.
Jasoooon! (that's one 'there's been a 40% increase in AIDS among
teenagers in just the last two years (1991)')
j...@acpub.duke.edu
"In certain religions in this country a part of the spiritual practice
and belief is that medicine must be refused as a possible treatment for
any infections or diseases. The U.S. government has prosecuted parents
for failing to allow doctors to treat their children when those children
have treatable infections. Those children can and do die. If you look
at _information_ as a _preventative medicine_, the archdiocese and
government and media have consistently withheld that information
(safer-sex possibilities) and thus insured the ultimate infection,
illness, and possible deaths of millions of citizens in this country.
What makes the church exempt from criticism that is extended to the
religions described earlier in this paragraph?" --David Wojnarowicz,
_Close to the Knives_
Mikey Dreamy Inglis
Kiefer) once write the following? Read the book:
>I not even going to copy any of this crap, but I'm just wondering:Is
>anyone begining to look back in shame at the time when we all thought Greg
>was the asshole? This is starting to become enough to make me regret
>being a liberal.
Come on, folks, this is obviously something Jason feels strongly
about. Everyone's entitled to a crusade or two. I don't see how one
post full of information meant as rebuttal to someone else's claims
makes either person an asshole.
I was going to comment on some of the claims made here, but this is
just too potentially hot a subject even for me. I don't think people
will be able to disagree about this and still be good-natured about
it.
I'll just say that my grandfather who died of cancer is just as dead
as my friend who died of AIDS, and I miss them both. But I would
never presume to tell anyone what they can or can't joke about. I
might personally not find such jokes funny, but that's my problem, no
one elses.
--
Ah, savory cheese puffs. Made inedible by time and fate.
-- The Tick
Jamie Plummer
> Knock knock.
> Who's there?
> Cardinal John O'Connor.
> Cardinal John O'Connor who?
> Cardinal John O'Connor,
There's the maxim about two things that should not be brought
up in polite conversation: politics and religion. We've done a
rather good job here of not bringing up the first, although
some [myself included] occasionally transgress. Let's not get
into the second Jason.
>
> You see? AIDS jokes with any truth in them simply aren't funny.
>
First I'd need to see an AIDS joke with some truth in it...
Rick Hodge
>
>> My question was why is A.I.D.S. the "sacred cow" of diseases all of a
sudden
>> when cancer, lung and heart disease and others kill many times more each
>> year than A.I.D.S.
>
>I'd love to see the statistics for this. You got 'em?
>
>
>j...@acpub.duke.edu
>
>(And 1 out of every 4 people in the Bronx has AIDS, and 1 out of every 10
>teenagers in New York, and 1 out of every 25 babies born in New York is
>infected with the AIDS virus.)
>
But that's just New York.
Besides, AIDS gets better press.
***SMART ALECK MODE OFF***
Jennifer Lynn Hill
: Jason Cohen writes:
: > Knock knock.
: > Who's there?
: > Cardinal John O'Connor.
: > Cardinal John O'Connor who?
: > Cardinal John O'Connor,
: There's the maxim about two things that should not be brought
: up in polite conversation: politics and religion. We've done a
: rather good job here of not bringing up the first, although
: some [myself included] occasionally transgress. Let's not get
: into the second Jason.
Um, no, we haven't kept politics out of any of this at all.
and MST3K doesn't keep out of either (ie, tagline in your .sig)
: > You see? AIDS jokes with any truth in them simply aren't funny.
: First I'd need to see an AIDS joke with some truth in it...
Sorry, guys. That proves Jason's point.
Warning that she is a veteran of the alt.barney.dinosaur.die.die.die
flame wars...
Bradley J. Wilson
[1...2...3...4...5...6...G]
[Interior of S.O.L. Tom and Crow are sitting in front of a VT-100 Teminal.
JOEL enters from R.]
TOM: Okay, okay, now let's write about the destruction of the Brazilian
rain forest on soc.couples.motss!!
CROW: Tom, I love the way you think!
JOEL: [rolling his eyes] What kind of trouble are you two hackers
causing now?
CROW: Oh, nothin'.
TOM: Just posting off-topic on as many groups as we can find! Ha HA!
JOEL: [sighs] Haven't you guys ever heard of a breach of "netiquette"?
TOM: Haven't you ever heard of "BITING ME"? Now, where were we...ah, I've
got it! Let's ask about the release date of Stephen King's new
book on alt.cult-movies!
[MADS light flashes.]
CROW: Tom, I'd marry you for that one.
JOEL: Quiet, you two. Steve Wozniak and Bill Gates are calling.
[D13: Dr. F. and Frank are in front of their own VT-100.]
Dr.F: So it's YOU TWO who are posting off-topic!! Here I am wading through
all sorts of off-topic garbage on alt.sex.bestiali....
Frank: So THAT's why the phone bill is so high! Sheesh....
Dr.F: Just for that, I'm sending you a short but sweet OTP found on our own
beloved rec.arts.tv.mst3k!
Frank: [snickering] But remember, if you read this post, you're reading
all the posts the author has posted in the past seven years!
Dr.F: Just push the button, Frank.
Frank: [strapping a condom on his index finger] [to the techtronic panel]
Who else has been pushing your buttons? [pushes button]
[S.O.L.]
ALL: WE'VE GOT OTP SIGN!!!!
[G...6...5...4...3...2...1]
>You know, there's some evidence that HIV might not be the cause of AIDS,
>or the only cause.
CROW: Yeah that's why I never eat Malt-O-Meal fruit loops without a
dental dam.
>
>And as far as not allowing "certain" types of humor goes,
JOEL: "Certain" people can "only" appreciate "certain" types of "jokes."
TOM: One good thing about non-functioning arms: no temptation to make
"finger quotes."
I can only say,
>"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech,
>or of the press, or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, or
>to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
CROW: My God, that's brilliant!
JOEL: He had better copyright that, or else democratic regimes all over
the world will be writing it into their constitutions.
> Telling people not to make jokes about X often increases the fear and
>hatred of X,
CROW: [as Churchhill] We have nothing to X but X itself!
JOEL: We have nothing to shrew but shrew itself?
TOM: We have nothing to MiST but MiST itself?
since the otherwise-jokesters
TOM: ...who've been stealing my otherwise-briefcase!
have to keep their feelings
>bottled up.
JOEL: [singing in a Sting-like falsetto] "Walked out this morning, don't
believe what I saw..."
TOM: A hundred million OTP's washed upon the shore?
(Explaining why a given joke is flawed, however, works
>wonders in educating some misguided souls,
CROW: SINNER! Ye have failed to comprehend *why* the chicken hath crossed
the straight and narrow path!
but this elucidation won't work
>if it's done in anger.)
TOM: [as Minnesota lady] Oh, that's so true.
JOEL: [as Minnesota lady] Yes, yes, you can be more elucidative with
honey than with vinegar.
>
>
>--
>Roger M. Wilcox rog...@cisco.com (a.k.a. tra...@netcom.com (Jeff Boeing))
>------------------- I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low. -----------------
>MSTie #38188 | Dvorak keyboard - Esperanto - Ross Perot - ProLog - Amiga 2000
> | Do I follow lost causes, or what?
TOM: Oh, is that it then?
JOEL: I guess so.
TOM: Let's go, guys.
CROW: Shame on you, Rog.
[1...2...3...4...5...6...G]
[Tom and Crow are back in front of their VT-100, Joel has his arms around
them.]
JOEL: So you see, guys, that's why we shouldn't post off-topic. It just
wastes the reader's time and makes them have to flame you.
CROW: But Joel, it's so much FUN!
TOM: Yeah, how can you *expect* us to not do it?
JOEL: Well, what constructive alternatives do you think you can come up
with?
[BOTS think...and think...and think...]
JOEL: Okay, I give you some help. How about using e-mail to solve off-
topic disagreements you have with other users?
BOTS: [conceedingly] Okay. We're sorry.
JOEL: It's okay, you two. Everybody does it now and then.
[All sigh.]
CROW: Uh, Joel, have we just been in an after-school special?
JOEL: What do you think, sirs?
[D13.]
Frank: Well, it's a little late. Dr.F's got me going through all of
his newsgroups now, filtering out all the OTP and appending them
to his kill file. [To Dr.F.] Hey Dr. F! I've got rec.fan.little-
mermaid all done, do you want to read it now?
[Dr.F. comes on from L]
Dr.F: Sure, why not...[notices Joel & the Bots]...FRANK!! [hits button]
|
\ | /
--O--
/ | \
|
Dr.F: Frank, I think I'm going to append YOU to my kill file!
Frank: Sorry. NO CARRIER.
--Bradley J. Wilson, who is now late for his Chinese history class
--Kalamazoo College
--Kalamazoo, MI, USA
--k94...@hobbes.kzoo.edu
--Standard disclaimers apply: MST3K and all references herein are the
property of Best Brains, Inc, blah blah blah without permission
but I think they'd like it if they saw it.
Steven Thorpe a.k.a thor
>And all this is relevant to an MST3K newsgroup, because....?
>Suggestion: It's email time, guys.
>Sampo
Yeah, or at least have the decency to hang a big old *OTP* sign
out on the front gate that says: AIDS Flamewar now in progress. What
if the kids walked in?
--thor
Mikey Dreamy Inglis
following? Read the book:
>And all this is relevant to an MST3K newsgroup, because....?
Well, because Joel once made a joke about . . . I mean, the Mads once
had an invention about . . . one of the movies had . . . oh, frak!
Sampo's right, guys. Let's let it end.
>Suggestion: It's email time, guys.
I think it'd be best if we just gave it up all together.
Nathan R Hansen
a.k.a thor) writes:
>
>
>
> Yeah, or at least have the decency to hang a big old *OTP* sign
>out on the front gate that says: AIDS Flamewar now in progress. What
>if the kids walked in?
>
>--thor
maybe i'm wrong here, but i don't remember on topic posting ever being a
real big concern here...heck, that's one of the things i like about this
newsgroup. i enjoy reading these posts and think they should stay on the
newsgroup where anyone who wants to can comment on them...or something like
that.
then again, what do i care? i'll be gone all summer...well, whatever,
Nate...
"Limitless pleasure is highly overrated."
--The Maxx
"I am the Crapon, and this is my show"
--um, The Crapon in the Hat
Steven Thorpe a.k.a. thor
>In article <17391138E7...@134.139.84.1> tho...@csulb.edu (Steven Thorpe
>a.k.a thor) writes:
>>msa...@aol.com (M Sampo) writes:
>>>And all this is relevant to an MST3K newsgroup, because....?
>>>Suggestion: It's email time, guys.
>>>Sampo
>> Yeah, or at least have the decency to hang a big old *OTP* sign
>>out on the front gate that says: AIDS Flamewar now in progress. What
>>if the kids walked in?
>>--thor
> maybe i'm wrong here, but i don't remember on topic posting ever being a
>real big concern here...heck, that's one of the things i like about this
>newsgroup. i enjoy reading these posts and think they should stay on the
>newsgroup where anyone who wants to can comment on them...or something like
>that.
marking posts as such. (Especially rabid bullshit like this).
--thor (You can always tell when another season ends)
Tick
if possible. Be warned.
1. Is it me, or does the title of this thread look like
2. Why does this seem like the ultimate progression of the
Kirk vs. Picard/Mike vs. Joel/David Caruso vs. Jimmy Smits
arguments?
AIDS is very bad. Cancer and heart disease are also very bad.
Can't we just agree that all disease is bad?
Later,
Tick
(Besides, Ebola Zaire beats them _all!_)
THE ABOVE HAS BEEN HUMOR.
a really sick plot synopsis for The Brady Bunch?
Erin Cash
But what I still don't understand is how the guy could have got stuck in the
cat flap in the first place. I mean how big is this cat?
___________________________________________________
/ Erin Cash \ "I *am*, however, competitively \
| ca...@ucs.orst.edu / priced and user-friendly." |
\___________________\_________________________________/
Daniel J. Sikorski
>I not even going to copy any of this crap, but I'm just wondering:Is
>anyone begining to look back in shame at the time when we all thought Greg
>was the asshole? This is starting to become enough to make me regret
>being a liberal.
No, but if it carries on much longer, I'm going to start regretting
reading this newsgroup.
ikaros, who lost two uncles on sunday, one to aids and one to alzheimer's,
and isn't in the mood for this bullshit.
--
ika...@infinet.com http://www.infinet.com/~ikaros Daniel J Sikorski
Rick Hodge
>>(......and one out of every 25 babies born in New York is......)
>
>Spanky: It says here in the book, that every fourth child born is a
Chinaman.
>Froggy: (Counting on his fingers) Oh no! My mom's gonna have her fourth
> baby next month!
>
>Greg Eichelberger
>
>
regards,
Rick Hodge
"See the dizzy spell. I would like a dizzy spell, too."
--Paul Merton, "Whose Line is It, Anyway?"
s
T-Bone
>anyone begining to look back in shame at the time when we all thought Greg
>was the asshole?
Not I. For one thing, I haven't quit thinking it. I mean, I've been an
asshole all my life, and I can spot 'em a mile off. Granted, my newsfeed
has been sporadic recently, but I've seen nothing to change my opinion.
T-Bone
"I used to work with chickens." - Firesign Theater
Mike Inglis
the following? Read the book:
>But what I still don't understand is how the guy could have got stuck in the
>cat flap in the first place. I mean how big is this cat?
It's not that the cat is large, you see, it's that the man is very
small.
Mikey "Bet that daffodil looked like a freakin UMBRELLA" Inglis
Farside
>
>On 30 Apr 1995, jnevins wrote:
>> Jason Cohen <j...@acpub.duke.edu> writes:
>>
>> >On 30 Apr 1995, Steven M. Kiefer wrote:
>>
>> >> anyone begining to look back in shame at the time when we all thought Greg
>> >> being a liberal.
>>
>> >did was rebut a seriously skewed viewpoint with some *facts*,
>> >Kiefer...it's when you start resorting to personal attacks (see Greg's
>> >e'er-so-eloquent followup) that the asshole label starts to apply. But
>> >please, correct me if I'm wrong!
>>
>>
>> >Jason, thanking jess for the moral support.
>> >j...@acpub.duke.edu
>>
>>
>> you GO, boy!
>
>
>Jason
Jase- No offense, but may I suggest you GO, boy to email? As Sampo has
correctly put in somewhere else, this has about as much relation to MST3K
as I do to Kevin Bacon.
(And jen- Personally, I'd keep outta this one... But that's just me.)
Steve (Please, God, don't let me be Baconized now....)
***********************************************************************
*Steve Boyd := stephe...@comm.hq.af.mil | "If this is Paradise, *
*The opinions expressed above are |I wish I had a Lawnmower."*
*mine, all mine, and the Air | Talking Heads, "Flowers" *
*Force probably won't share them. | Mist-Anon #48171. *
***********************************************************************