History Question
Whispers35
Musical. Does anyone have any suggestions? Are there any good links out there
specifically for this purpose? I figured it would probably have to have a
section simply for Rogers and Hammerstein AND Rogers and Hart...and also
something about the transition from the plays with music in them to the modern
musical. I have no idea what I'm doing. Does anyone else? :) HELP!
Thanks!
Viki
Bushwhacker
Well, as a start, you spell his name "Rodgers"...
Stephen Farrow
Working from websites for such a paper is a *bad* idea - I certainly
wouldn't be impressed if I was marking a paper on that kind of topic
whose bibliography consisted solely of websites, and neither would
anyone I know (I'm in a PhD programme in theatre, and so are most of my
friends here; we regularly talk about marking etc, and this is an issue
that has come up more than once). And, of course, I hope I don't need to
remind you that culling material directly from the web amounts to
plagiarism, and would probably earn you an 'F' under your institution's
academic integrity guidelines (and these things *can* be traced - I know
someone who ended up failing a student over Christmas for just this
reason).
There are a bunch of history books out there about Broadway musicals.
None of them are great (some of them are terrible), but that's where you
need to start. Andrew Lamb's '150 Years of Popular Musical Theatre' is
OK, as is Gerald Bordman's book (well... it's not great, but it's better
than some of what's out there). Steven Suskin's two anthologies of
first-night reviews ('Opening Nights on Broadway' and 'More Opening
Nights on Broadway') may be useful to you. You might also find some
useful material in the appendices to Rosenberg's 'The Broadway Musical:
Collaboration in Commerce and Art'. Also look at Geoffrey Block's
'Enchanted Evenings: The Broadway Musical From Show Boat to Sondheim',
and Joseph P. Swain's 'The Broadway Musical: A Critical and Musical
Survey'.
I tend to think that Ethan Mordden's books are crap, but they might be
of some use to you. The same goes for Martin Gottfried (double-check
*everything* you read in Gottfried with other sources - factual accuracy
is not his strongest suit. Mordden is annoying, a bad writer and a lousy
historian, but he does at least tend to check his facts).
But, basically, you need to spend some time in the library! The books
I've cited are just the tip of the iceberg.
One other point: 'The Evolution of the Broadway Musical' is a rather
large topic for a term paper. It would probably be a good idea to talk
to your professor/TA about narrowing it down into something more
manageable.
Good luck,
Stephen
--
"First of all, you're going to need a live chicken and a working
knowledge of Latin..."
fmomoon
Whispers35 <whisp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020401235318...@mb-dd.aol.com...
Start with books, not with the internet. Any decent library will have lots
of musical theatre history reference books. Then, and only then, go to the
internet. The internet, for what it is worth, can be full of fascinating,
if inaccurate information. John Doe's page may insist that musical theatre
began and ended with Joe Blow, but that wouldn't make it accurate. Be
careful and be sure to interview knowledgeable people.
--
Monica Maddern
Michael Callery
possibly come up with a valid thesis. His references mentioned in the
part I snipped are also excellent (although I tend to like Mordden but
Mordden's offering his opinion and you have to take it at that).
Since you mentioned it why not a paper about the differences between
Rodgers and Hart and Rodgers and Hammerstein. And pretty much this is
the "evolution of the Broadway musical." There has been much written
about this, so you'd be able to find sources. Don't know if you can find
an original "take" on this, but it would be focused and would be much
more manageable.
Our FAQ at
http://www.juglans.demon.co.uk/Tim/Theatre/TheatreLinks.htm
It has a bunch of links that might help you at least get a "take" on
this topic. But I'm in agreement, as a former NYU professor, a paper
with only web-based citations immediately gets down graded. Use your
library, double check your sources. Even then, you might be wrong, but
at least you have the research to back it up. (Again, as Stephen says,
Gottfried ain't a good source ... and I'd love to grade a paper where
Suskin was used to back-up Gottfried. Oh, that would be fun!) Of course,
I taught computer stuff, so Gottfried and Suskin did not figure into the mix.
Good luck!
Mike
Stephen Farrow wrote:
>
> Whispers35 wrote:
> >
> > I'm doing my term paper for theater history on the evolution of the Broadway
> > Musical. Does anyone have any suggestions? Are there any good links out there
> > specifically for this purpose? I figured it would probably have to have a
> > section simply for Rogers and Hammerstein AND Rogers and Hart...and also
> > something about the transition from the plays with music in them to the modern
> > musical. I have no idea what I'm doing. Does anyone else? :) HELP!
Karen Mercedes
and Gerald Bordman.
Also Richard Traubner's OPERETTA, which covers a lot of early
American musical theatre history, and Bernard Peterson's encyclopedia of African-American
musicals, are also important. John Kobal's book on the history of
movie musicals, plus at big book on MGM musicals. Also the books by David
Ewen, Ethan Mordden, Julian Mates, Thomas Riis,
And don't forget Rick Simas' great book on Broadway flops (there used to
be a website on this subject, but it disappeared about a year ago - anyone
know if it's back online?).
Also of interest are books by those involved in musical theatre at various
points in its history, including Agnes de Mille and Lehman Engel. Other
books of reminiscences by Steven Suskin, Otis Guernsey, and Max Wilk.
On the web, the best musicals history site I've found is
www.musicals101.com. I know the site's creator, and have great respect for
him and his work.
Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
***************************************
In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.
- Proverbs 3:6
Karen Mercedes
> Since you mentioned it why not a paper about the differences between
> Rodgers and Hart and Rodgers and Hammerstein. And pretty much this is
I'd also add "Richard Rodgers solo" - i.e., his post-Hammerstein work.
Then you'd get a big larger survey.
John Baxindine
> Also look at Geoffrey Block's
> 'Enchanted Evenings: The Broadway Musical From Show Boat to Sondheim',
> and Joseph P. Swain's 'The Broadway Musical: A Critical and Musical
> Survey'.
These two are very much worth your time (though Swain in particular
emphasizes the musicological side of things). The Suskin collections
are also useful.
You might also want to skim through the writings of Stanley Green and
Kurt Gänzl; I don't think much of Gänzl, but you might find something
useful. Also, for some perspective on the creation of musical theater
and on the way it works in practice, take a look at WORDS WITH MUSIC
by Lehman Engel.
> I tend to think that Ethan Mordden's books are crap, but they might be
> of some use to you.
Mordden is worth reading if only because some valuable information
might be buried in the middle of an opinionated rant. (Though I do
remember catching several errors in his chapter on CANDIDE...)
> The same goes for Martin Gottfried (double-check
> *everything* you read in Gottfried with other sources - factual accuracy
> is not his strongest suit.
Ditto for Stephen Citron. I was shaking my head in disbelief over the
mistakes in SONDHEIM AND LLOYD WEBBER.
There are several wonderful texts on the work of individual composers.
SONDHEIM'S BROADWAY MUSICALS by Stephen Banfield comes to mind.
Biographies of individual writers and composers may also be of use,
particularly for fact-checking.
> One other point: 'The Evolution of the Broadway Musical' is a rather
> large topic for a term paper.
It's a rather large topic for a 500-page book.
John
Stephen Farrow
>
> Stephen Farrow <sfa...@chass.utoronto.ca> wrote in message news:<3CA944D7...@chass.utoronto.ca>...
> > Also look at Geoffrey Block's
> > 'Enchanted Evenings: The Broadway Musical From Show Boat to Sondheim',
> > and Joseph P. Swain's 'The Broadway Musical: A Critical and Musical
> > Survey'.
>
> These two are very much worth your time (though Swain in particular
> emphasizes the musicological side of things). The Suskin collections
> are also useful.
>
> You might also want to skim through the writings of Stanley Green and
> Kurt Gänzl; I don't think much of Gänzl, but you might find something
> useful. Also, for some perspective on the creation of musical theater
> and on the way it works in practice, take a look at WORDS WITH MUSIC
> by Lehman Engel.
The only one of Ganzl's books I really like is his book about cast
recordings - it's opinionated, sure, but it also covers a lot of ground.
>
> > I tend to think that Ethan Mordden's books are crap, but they might be
> > of some use to you.
>
> Mordden is worth reading if only because some valuable information
> might be buried in the middle of an opinionated rant. (Though I do
> remember catching several errors in his chapter on CANDIDE...)
Granted. A big part of my dislike of Mordden stems from my dislike of
his writing style.
>
> > The same goes for Martin Gottfried (double-check
> > *everything* you read in Gottfried with other sources - factual accuracy
> > is not his strongest suit.
>
> Ditto for Stephen Citron. I was shaking my head in disbelief over the
> mistakes in SONDHEIM AND LLOYD WEBBER.
I'd blanked that one out, but you're right. It's awful. Particularly
since better books have been written about both (many better, in
Sondheim's case). On Lloyd Webber, Walsh is probably the best one out
there, though it's more than a touch hagiographical.
>
> There are several wonderful texts on the work of individual composers.
> SONDHEIM'S BROADWAY MUSICALS by Stephen Banfield comes to mind.
Also, on Sondheim, there's Zadan (good, reliable, accessible, but not
particularly academic), as well as Joanne Gordon's 'Art Isn't Easy'
(which does pretty much what the Zadan does, but in a slightly more
academic style).
>
> Biographies of individual writers and composers may also be of use,
> particularly for fact-checking.
>
> > One other point: 'The Evolution of the Broadway Musical' is a rather
> > large topic for a term paper.
>
> It's a rather large topic for a 500-page book.
Exactly. It would never make it through the thesis proposal process in
my department (theses around here are meant to be around 350 pages).
John Baxindine
> The only one of Ganzl's books I really like is his book about cast
> recordings - it's opinionated, sure, but it also covers a lot of ground.
His two-volume ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MUSICAL THEATER also covers a lot of
ground.
> > Ditto for Stephen Citron. I was shaking my head in disbelief over the
> > mistakes in SONDHEIM AND LLOYD WEBBER.
>
> I'd blanked that one out
I don't blame you.
> On Lloyd Webber, Walsh is probably the best one out
> there, though it's more than a touch hagiographical.
I'm trying to remember - is Walsh the one who defends himself every
other page for daring to approach ALW's work from something resembling
a scholarly perspective?
John
Whispers35
LOL...don't get sarcastic with me! We have a family of Rodgers', and people
always spell their name wrong. So I don't even try to spell it with the d
anywhere anymore. Sorry about that, simple typo.
Whispers35
>large topic for a term paper. It would probably be a good idea to talk
>to your professor/TA about narrowing it down into something more
>manageable.
Oooooh, I've tried. I'm still trying. I figure as I do some research,
something more approachable will come to me. And yes, I do know of plagiarism,
and all the punishments that come with it. What good college student doesn't?
Stephen Farrow
>
> >One other point: 'The Evolution of the Broadway Musical' is a rather
> >large topic for a term paper. It would probably be a good idea to talk
> >to your professor/TA about narrowing it down into something more
> >manageable.
>
> Oooooh, I've tried. I'm still trying. I figure as I do some research,
> something more approachable will come to me.
That's probably a sensible approach - I'm sure that something will grab
you once you start getting through those books.
> And yes, I do know of plagiarism,
> and all the punishments that come with it. What good college student doesn't?
You'd be surprised! Really. There are some real horror stories out
there. The friend I mentioned who failed a student did so because that
student had transcribed, word-for-word, a Newsweek article about "Rent"
and handed it in as a term paper!
Bushwhacker
>
> Whispers35 wrote:
> >
> > >One other point: 'The Evolution of the Broadway Musical' is a rather
> > >large topic for a term paper. It would probably be a good idea to talk
> > >to your professor/TA about narrowing it down into something more
> > >manageable.
> >
> > Oooooh, I've tried. I'm still trying. I figure as I do some research,
> > something more approachable will come to me.
>
> That's probably a sensible approach - I'm sure that something will grab
> you once you start getting through those books.
>
> > And yes, I do know of plagiarism,
> > and all the punishments that come with it. What good college student doesn't?
>
> You'd be surprised! Really. There are some real horror stories out
> there. The friend I mentioned who failed a student did so because that
> student had transcribed, word-for-word, a Newsweek article about "Rent"
> and handed it in as a term paper!
>
And it's not just students. As I've mentioned before, I worked on a paper with a sports writer who
plagiarized from an obscure little mag called *Sports Illustrated.* He got suspended rather than
fired, but I think he really should have been *institutionalized* for criminal stupidity.
Stephen Farrow
Not to mention that these days there are these things called
listservs... if you come across something that appears, shall we say,
familiar, and you can't quite place it, you can instantly access a
global community of academics, and one of them will probably be able to
provide the citation (which, in fact, is what happened in this case).
Frank
mentioned. But how far back will you go? THE BLACK CROOK? The
operettas? Gilbert & Sullivan? Others have given you good advice and
sources for your research. My only advice would be have a point of
view. So many papers, articles and books have been written about the
history of the musical stage that coming up with a distinct point of
view might help in your paper. Good luck.
Tim Gowen
Baxindine <baxi...@yahoo.com> writes
>> On Lloyd Webber, Walsh is probably the best one out
>> there, though it's more than a touch hagiographical.
>
>I'm trying to remember - is Walsh the one who defends himself every
>other page for daring to approach ALW's work from something resembling
>a scholarly perspective?
Walsh goes into a lot of detail about the music and deals with the
references to Prokofiev and so on, but I wouldn't say he was defensive
or (Stephen) particularly hagiographic. He does tend to hit the
allegations of plagiarism out of the park, but also detail's ALW's
notorious moodiness and the whole Rice "Memory" debacle.
Michael Coveney's "Cats On A Chandelier" or whatever it's called is much
more of a gushing tribute.
Tim
--
Tim Gowen
The RATM FAQ: http://www.juglans.demon.co.uk/Tim/Theatre/TheatreLinks.htm