Peter Pan
David Lawrence Levy
Bernstein score to Peter Pan, restored and conducted by Alexander Frey,
with Linda Eder as Wendy and Daniel Narducci as Hook.
I hadn't realized until I purchased the disc that this features a ton of
previously unheard music. While the original cast album of the show (and,
I assume, the original production) featured incidental music by Alec
Wilder, it turns out that Bernstein wrote an entire (and entirely
delightful) incidental score, plus a few songs that were dropped from the
original production. Neither of the singers would be my first choice for
the parts - Eder is too old for Wendy, and Narducci is a little too
operatic and mannered for my tastes (although probably exactly right for
the part as conceived) - but even so, the album is absolutely delightful.
There's also a bonus track of a Bernstein/Comden & Green song written for
their attempt at musicalizing The Skin Of Our Teeth.
If you're a fan of Bernstein, or of Peter Pan, I definitely recommend this
disc.
David
Steve Newport
dl...@ls02.fas.harvard.edu (David Lawrence Levy) I'm listening to
I was going to pass on this-- since I have (and rarely play) the Karloff
recording, but now you've got me interested. How many actual vocals are
on it?
Giosue
Bernstein is one of, if not the, greatest American composer there is.
His work spans from theater to opera to the symphonic hall and back
again. I'm always amazed that people only know of WSS and Candide, if
that. His other work is so much more beautiful and complex. His Mass is
excellent and very close to our times. Arias and Barcaroles is also
brilliant and his two operas (one and a half really) Trouble in Tahiti
and A Quiet Place, are masterpieces. I think that, like Bisexuals
(joke), neither the classical camp nor the theater camp will accept him
because he sits on the fence and chooses neither side. I think that is
actually a big problem with musical theater fans who don't usually have
any real classical musical training and end up like Mandlebaums and
Portantieres, who really don't know what they are talking about, but end
up talking about it anyway.
Oh well.
Giosue
David Lawrence Levy
> I was going to pass on this-- since I have (and rarely play) the Karloff
> recording, but now you've got me interested. How many actual vocals are
> on it?
I'll check again when I get home, but I believe there are eight - the five
songs that appeared on the original album, two cut from the score, plus
the song from The Skin of Our Teeth.
David
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
...neither the classical camp nor the theater camp will accept
Bernstein because he sits on the fence....
-------------------------------
SN: Who doesn't accept him?
-------------------------------
a big problem with musical theater fans who don't usually have any real
classical musical training and end up like Mandlebaum
SN: I can think of far worse fates.
Giosue
>
> Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
> ...neither the classical camp nor the theater camp will accept
> Bernstein because he sits on the fence....
> -------------------------------
> SN: Who doesn't accept him?
Musical theater groups think he's too classical (the truth is that his
music is just difficult) and classical groups think he's too commercial
and musical theater-like (when the truth is they are just afraid of
contemporary music, even though Bernstein's music is far from
contemporary today) It's very much like the situation with Adam Guettel,
the classical people have no idea who he is, (and they should) and the
musical people hate him because "There's no melodies!" well think a
little bit and maybe you will get more out of it than just the charm
songs that idiots drool over..
> -------------------------------
> a big problem with musical theater fans who don't usually have any real
> classical musical training and end up like Mandlebaum
> ------------------------------------------
Mandlebaum is an idiot, and talks with such authority, especially about
music (which no one should really talk about unless they have a working
knowledge of music theory) that one would think he's got degrees coming
out of his armpits, and the sad thing is that musical theater fans
listen to him! There is an old guard among musical theater fans who love
the melodic pieces and hate Webber, some like Sondheim, but even
Sondheim has lost his contemporary voice (I could go on about that, but
I won't) and then there is the kiddie guard that loves Webber and all
the crappy stuff out there. Where, oh where are the musical fans with
brains and a musical education?
Spelvin
news:dakq06$lav$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu:
Thanks for a most valuable and informative post.
The Charlap-Styne-Leigh-Comden-Green PETER PAN was the first musical I
ever saw, without even realizing I was seeing a Broadway musical. I
thought it was a kiddie TV show!
Any PETER PAN enthusiast should know and love the 1950 Bernstein, the
1953 Disney and the 1954 Martin-Robbins.
We also should know -- and I was glad to finally hear it earlier this
year thanks to BBC Radio -- John Crook's music for the original 1904
production. Quite delightful it is, too.
Here's a webpage with an interesting resume of some Pan recordings:
http://www.c20th.com/pprecords.htm
It seems Peter Pan has inspired composers from the very beginning up
through today, 100 years later: Jan A.P. Kaczmarek's score for "Finding
Neverland" won an Oscar this year.
Spelvin
--
"I ran away from home the day I was born."
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
Musical theater groups think Bernstein is too classical (the truth is
that his music is just difficult)
SN: Although that doesn't prevent amateurs from attempting (and failing
with) WEST SIDE STORY on a regular basis. Today I read about a college
production with gender-blind casting.
-------------------------------------------
and classical groups think he's too commercial and musical
--------------------------------------------
SN: I once read CANDIDE described as the only OBCR classical music types
wouldn't be ashamed to have in their libraries. Well, fuck them! (And I
love the show.)
-------------------------------------------
It's very much like the situation with Adam Guettel: the musical people
hate him because "There's no melodies!"
SN: I have recordings of three of his scores, and the melodies are
elusive.
-------------------------------------------
Well, think a little bit and maybe you will get more out of it than just
the charm songs that idiots drool over..
SN: There's a leap: no melodies to "charm" songs. Lot of "In Between"
there. (To mention a charmng charm song by Lerner and Loewe.)
Mandlebaum is an idiot, and talks with such authority
SN: He's pretty straightforward compared to dreadful critics like
Brantley, Rich, Barnes, Lahr, and Lyons. I miss John Simon already.
-----------------------------------------
old guard among musical theater fans who love the melodic pieces and
-----------------------------------------
SN: You mean people with good taste?
------------------------------------------
Where, oh where are the musical fans with brains and a musical
education?
SN: Always remember that THEATRE is the noun and MUSICAL the adjective.
I like a musical play. I don't like "music on stage" unless I know
that's what I'm in for in advance. And is this ValleyBoy?
David Lawrence Levy
> music (which no one should really talk about unless they have a working
> knowledge of music theory) that one would think he's got degrees coming
You don't really mean this, do you? Because if you're arguing that people
who like more popular stuff shouldn't be afraid of more experimental
stuff, well, that ain't gonna happen with this sort of attitude in the
air.
David
Stephen Farrow
>
>
> Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
> Musical theater groups think Bernstein is too classical (the truth is
> that his music is just difficult)
> ------------------------------------------
> SN: Although that doesn't prevent amateurs from attempting (and failing
> with) WEST SIDE STORY on a regular basis. Today I read about a college
> production with gender-blind casting.
Indeed. I was once *in* a university production of "West Side Story" (as
Officer Krupke and Glad Hand, for neither of which role I would consider
myself natural casting) that was horrific a failure as you could imagine.
And it would seem to me quite sensible for an amateur group with - how shall I
put this? - limited resources to steer clear of Bernstein, precisely because
his music tends towards the demanding side as these things go. Hearing
Bernstein done badly is painful.
> -------------------------------------------
> and classical groups think he's too commercial and musical
> theater-like....
> --------------------------------------------
> SN: I once read CANDIDE described as the only OBCR classical music types
> wouldn't be ashamed to have in their libraries. Well, fuck them! (And I
> love the show.)
> -------------------------------------------
> It's very much like the situation with Adam Guettel: the musical people
> hate him because "There's no melodies!"
> -------------------------------------------
> SN: I have recordings of three of his scores, and the melodies are
> elusive.
I would disagree with that, though I do agree that there are plenty of more
accessible composers out there, and that Guettel's music, at least assuming he
continues in the vein he's mostly written in so far, is always going to be a
minority taste (he has written one or two things here and there that show he
*can* write a straight-ahead, accessible musical comedy number, the best
example being "Is That Remarkable?" in "Floyd Collins", but that's not the
style in which he usually works, and that number is there in "Floyd Collins"
to make a very specific point).
> -------------------------------------------
> Well, think a little bit and maybe you will get more out of it than just
> the charm songs that idiots drool over..
> ---------------------------------------
> SN: There's a leap: no melodies to "charm" songs. Lot of "In Between"
> there. (To mention a charmng charm song by Lerner and Loewe.)
Indeed. Condescension is unappealing at both ends of the spectrum.
> ---------------------------------------
> Mandlebaum is an idiot, and talks with such authority
> ----------------------------------------
> SN: He's pretty straightforward compared to dreadful critics like
> Brantley, Rich, Barnes, Lahr, and Lyons. I miss John Simon already.
And he *really* knows his musical theatre history. He's hardly an idiot.
> -----------------------------------------
> old guard among musical theater fans who love the melodic pieces and
> hate Webber.
> -----------------------------------------
> SN: You mean people with good taste?
> ------------------------------------------
> Where, oh where are the musical fans with brains and a musical
> education?
There are quite a lot of them on this newsgroup, for a start.
--
Stephen
We walk with the darkness, the wolf at our side. Through the waterfall
of power, to the blackest heart of eternity. I think we should have a
bake sale.
Stephen Farrow
To be fair (and, David, I absolutely agree with your general point), a number
of the major theatre critics *are* embarrassingly stupid when it comes to
writing about music.
--
Stephen
We had a fairy, not a Gary Lineker.
Giosue
Of course, I meant they shouldn't talk about it professionally.
>
Giosue
>
>
> Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
> Musical theater groups think Bernstein is too classical (the truth is
> that his music is just difficult)
> ------------------------------------------
> SN: Although that doesn't prevent amateurs from attempting (and failing
> with) WEST SIDE STORY on a regular basis. Today I read about a college
> production with gender-blind casting.
I think that's a great idea! What's wrong with that? It makes the piece
much more modern, there are gangs with men and women in them now. And
not all gay/lesbian people are white, some are in gangs, and live in
areas where their love is all the more forbidden because of it. I revel
in the idea of two males playing Tony and Maria, and two women playing
Riff and Bernardo, I think that's a great idea!
> -------------------------------------------
> and classical groups think he's too commercial and musical
> theater-like....
> --------------------------------------------
> SN: I once read CANDIDE described as the only OBCR classical music types
> wouldn't be ashamed to have in their libraries. Well, fuck them! (And I
> love the show.)
Its a great piece, but still not often performed by classical schools or
companies, and the NYC opera production was just hideous...
> -------------------------------------------
> It's very much like the situation with Adam Guettel: the musical people
> hate him because "There's no melodies!"
> -------------------------------------------
> SN: I have recordings of three of his scores, and the melodies are
> elusive.
Just because he doesn't spoon feed the music to you doesn't mean it's
not good.
> -------------------------------------------
> Well, think a little bit and maybe you will get more out of it than just
> the charm songs that idiots drool over..
> ---------------------------------------
> SN: There's a leap: no melodies to "charm" songs. Lot of "In Between"
> there. (To mention a charmng charm song by Lerner and Loewe.)
its a stretch, but it makes my point
> ---------------------------------------
> Mandlebaum is an idiot, and talks with such authority
> ----------------------------------------
> SN: He's pretty straightforward compared to dreadful critics like
> Brantley, Rich, Barnes, Lahr, and Lyons. I miss John Simon already.
You're talking about theater critics, im talking about critics who
specialize in musical theater
> -----------------------------------------
> old guard among musical theater fans who love the melodic pieces and
> hate Webber.
> -----------------------------------------
Hey, I hate Webber as much as the next guy, except for Aspects of Love,
which is truly a chamber opera.
But I meant the steadfast people who live for the old ways musicals were
written, song/dialogue/song, etc etc. But LET THE ART FORM EVOLVE!
SUPPORT IT! Don't keep clamoring for what you had yesterday! Otherwise
there won't be a tomorrow for the art form!
> ------------------------------------------
> Where, oh where are the musical fans with brains and a musical
> education?
> ------------------------------------------
> SN: Always remember that THEATRE is the noun and MUSICAL the adjective.
> I like a musical play. I don't like "music on stage" unless I know
> that's what I'm in for in advance. And is this ValleyBoy?
I have no idea what you mean by "music on stage" and no this is not
Valleyboy.
>
>
>
> http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
>
David Lawrence Levy
> Of course, I meant they shouldn't talk about it professionally.
No arguments here.
David
Noel...@aol.com
Era musicals aren't appreciated (and performed) by theatre folk. Three
were Broadway hits: On the Town, Wonderful Town and West Side Story.
I think it's fair to say that West Side Story is one of the most
beloved musicals of all time. Certainly in the top ten. I can't,
off-hand, think of a show with better music. And, unlike any musical I
can name, we're all extremely familiar with a very large percentage of
its music. The songs are well known, but those dances are extremely
popular as well, often played as "Symphonic Dances." The soundtrack
album (yes, SOUNDTRACK - with Marni Nixon) held the record for most
consecutive weeks on the charts until the early 80s.
The two "Town" shows he wrote with Comden & Green get done quite a lot,
and Broadway's seen revivals of them both in the past 8 years. On the
Town's dance music is done every now and then as well, and New York New
York is a hell of a song, an enduring hit.
Which brings us to the ever-popular Candide. My parents invested in
the original production (directed by Tyrone Guthrie, book by Lillian
Hellman) and of course lost it all. It was one of those very
short-lived bombs. Now, can you name any similar disaster that has
been done so often, revised so many ways, recorded so often? Face it -
Candide's quite the phenomenon 49 years later. (And what other show's
biggest "hit" is its overture?)
My opinion is that nothing else Bernstein composed is quite up to the
quality of these four musicals. I've heard a lot of his stuff, and am
always a little disappointed that it's not us soul-stirring as West
Side Story. But what do I know? I'm just (like most of us here)
someone who loves musicals. Lives 'em, breathes 'em, plays 'em, writes
'em. And I, like countless others, consider Bernstein in the top tier
of composers.
Spelvin
> types wouldn't be ashamed to have in their libraries. Well, fuck them!
> (And I love the show.)
Once again, I totally agree with The Newport!
We have this "classical music critic" named Sarah Bryan Miller, or
something like that. What a worthless piece of shit. The CANDIDE
Overture was played at a classical concert, and she wrote:
"This music is too good to only be known to musical theatre types."
I wanted to write her, "What are these 'musical theatre types' to which
you sneeringly refer?" I expect she meant "show music queens."
To paraphrase The Newport's so-apt phrase: "Fuck her!"
Spelvin
Spelvin
news:42cf422c$0$18643$1472...@news.sunsite.dk:
> Steve Newport wrote:
>>
>>
>> Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
>> Musical theater groups think Bernstein is too classical (the truth is
>> that his music is just difficult)
>> ------------------------------------------
>> SN: Although that doesn't prevent amateurs from attempting (and
>> failing with) WEST SIDE STORY on a regular basis. Today I read about
>> a college production with gender-blind casting.
>
> Indeed. I was once *in* a university production of "West Side Story"
> (as Officer Krupke and Glad Hand, for neither of which role I would
> consider myself natural casting)
Yes -- I see you as that Latin Spitfire, Anita.
Spelvin
--
"For the finest in Usenet messages since 1999."
Spelvin
>> education?
>
> There are quite a lot of them on this newsgroup, for a start.
>
Thanks, Farrow!
Spelvin
> Steve Newport wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
>> Musical theater groups think Bernstein is too classical (the truth is
>> that his music is just difficult)
>> ------------------------------------------
>> SN: Although that doesn't prevent amateurs from attempting (and
>> failing with) WEST SIDE STORY on a regular basis. Today I read about
>> a college production with gender-blind casting.
> I think that's a great idea! What's wrong with that? It makes the
> piece much more modern, there are gangs with men and women in them
> now. And not all gay/lesbian people are white, some are in gangs, and
> live in areas where their love is all the more forbidden because of
> it. I revel in the idea of two males playing Tony and Maria, and two
> women playing Riff and Bernardo, I think that's a great idea!
YOU WOULD!
Spelvin
Spelvin
> album (yes, SOUNDTRACK - with Marni Nixon) held the record for most
> consecutive weeks on the charts until the early 80s.
Unless I'm terribly mistaken, it still holds the record for most weeks
at Number One (54, or something like that.)
Steve Newport
stephen...@gmail.com (Stephen Farrow)
a number of the major theatre critics *are* embarrassingly stupid when
it comes to writing about music.
Some of the dissing of the LA MANCHA music last time around had me
rolling my eyes. I'm not claiming it's beyond criticism-- but the stuff
they were writing. Oy!
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
Music (which no one should really talk about unless they have a working
knowledge of music theory.) Of course, I meant they shouldn't talk about
it professionally.
----------------------------------
Perhaps editors should start sending both Music and Theatre critics to
certain shows again, a la PORGY AND BESS.
Steve Newport
stephen...@gmail.com (Stephen Farrow) It would seem to me quite
sensible for an amateur group with - how shall I put this? - limited
resources to steer clear of Bernstein, precisely because his music tends
towards the demanding side as these things go. Hearing Bernstein done
badly is painful.
-----------------------------------------
directed WONDERFUL TOWN for a community theatre. That's easily the most
doable of the four.
-----------------------------------------
Guettel's music, at least assuming he continues in the vein he's mostly
written in so far, is always going to be a minority taste (he has
written one or two things here and there that show he *can* write a
straight-ahead, accessible musical comedy number, the best example being
"Is That Remarkable?" in "Floyd Collins", but that's not the style in
which he usually works, and that number is there in "Floyd Collins" to
make a very specific point).
-------------------------------------------
the spectrum I feel the same way about Frank Wildhorn after parts of
PIMPERNEL. (previously) Ken Mandelbaum is pretty straightforward
compared to dreadful critics like Brantley, Rich, Barnes, Lahr...
--------------------------------------------
And he *really* knows his musical theatre history.
SN: Yes, and I certainly prefer that to a Music Critic's opinion of a
musical.
Steve Newport
Noel...@aol.com
musicals. I've heard a lot of his stuff, and am always a little
others, consider Bernstein in the top tier of composers.
We agree-- and, yes, based primarily on these musicals. I also saw and
loved a lot of 1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE. Oh for a Musical Theatre style
recording.
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
Guettel: Just because he doesn't spoon feed the music doesn't mean it's
not good. Well, think a little bit and maybe you will get more out of it
than just the charm songs that idiots drool over.
SN: There's a leap: no melodies to "charm" songs. Lot of "In Between"
there. (To mention a charmng charm song by Lerner and Loewe.)
It's a stretch, but it makes my point.
---------------------------------------
SN: No, not really. Mandelbaum is pretty straightforward compared to
dreadful critics like Brantley, Rich, Barnes, Lahr.
----------------------------------------
You're talking about theater critics, I'm talking about critics who
specialize in musical theater.
-----------------------------------------
SN: Ken is also a reviewer. And sometimes writes about non-musicals.
------------------------------------------
I hate Webber as much as the next guy, except for Aspects of Love, which
is truly a chamber opera.
SN: With horrible music. I found SUNSET BOULEVARD less painful. There
have always been chamber-operas. You mentioned TROUBLE IN TAHITI
already.
And, yes, they generally appeal to a different audience. A lot of people
who love musicals don't like grand opera or European operetta either.
And some have admitted here that they don't like PLAYS!!
------------------------------------------
the old ways musicals were written, song/dialogue/song
SN: Some successful ones still are in this style, and probably always
will be. They seem to make audiences the happiest.
-----------------------------------------
LET THE ART FORM EVOLVE! Don't keep clamoring for what you had
yesterday! Otherwise there won't be a tomorrow for the art form!
------------------------------------------
convince me either.) It would be nice if the new musicals in the old
style were better, though. We used to have arguments here, along the
lines of innovative vs. traditional but well-crafted. Many of the latter
seem
to hold up better.
Stephen Farrow
>>>Where, oh where are the musical fans with brains and a musical
>>>education?
>>
>>There are quite a lot of them on this newsgroup, for a start.
>>
>
>
> Thanks, Farrow!
I didn't say you were among them.
--
Stephen
I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling's really bad. It's depressing.
Harlett O'Dowd
SN: Although that doesn't prevent amateurs from attempting (and failing
with) WEST SIDE STORY on a regular basis. Today I read about a college
production with gender-blind casting.
Giosue
I think that's a great idea! What's wrong with that? It makes the piece
much more modern, there are gangs with men and women in them now. And
not all gay/lesbian people are white, some are in gangs, and live in
areas where their love is all the more forbidden because of it. I revel
in the idea of two males playing Tony and Maria, and two women playing
Riff and Bernardo, I think that's a great idea!
HARLETT: You *are* joking, aren't you?
Giosue on CANDIDE:
Its a great piece, but still not often performed by classical schools
or companies, and the NYC opera production was just hideous...
HARLETT: Here you show your ignornace. CANDIDE, along with Weill's
STREET SCENE are two of only a handful of post-war works that ARE being
performed with any frequency by the world's opera companies. And if
you count Symphonies, various bits (if not full concerts or full opera
productions) of WSS are also performed more often than just about any
post-war work.
What post-war work(s) would you cite as being more readily embraced by
the classical music world than Bernstein's (and Weill's) better
efforts?
> ---------------------------------------
> Mandlebaum is an idiot, and talks with such authority
> ----------------------------------------
> SN: He's pretty straightforward compared to dreadful critics like
> Brantley, Rich, Barnes, Lahr, and Lyons. I miss John Simon already.
Giosue
You're talking about theater critics, im talking about critics who
specialize in musical theater
HARLETT: Could you mention some specifics about Mandelbaum that bug
you? And could you compare and contrast him with a "musical theatre
writer" who you feel *is* qualified to write on the subejct.
In agreement with many others here, Mandelbaum certainly knows his
post-war musical theatre history, and I find his season summaries and
(now, all too few) reviews to be extremely informative and well
thought-out.
I also think he's very *fair* and, as opposed to dispencing judgement
from on high, he writes with his readers in mind. In other words, if
covering a revival or revisal, he WILL point out whether the production
will *work* for most audiences who know the original. If a score's
music is *simplistic* or *complicated* he will discuss it in the piece
and note that fans of one style may like or dislike the piece more than
he did.
Of all the writers on the scene, I trust him the most and agree with
him the most. I only get into NYC a few times a year, so I only get to
see, at best, three or four productions. Mandelbaum helps me to spend
my entertainment dollars wisely and I appreciate it.
That said, I have noticed that his e-articles are moving more into the
arena of cd and DVD reviews and less stage work. And yes, this is not
his strongest critical suit, but I think he applies the same
level-headedness he has given to his stage pieces - and his e-column
has informed me of some released - especially on DVD - I would have not
known about otherwise.
In short, I don't read Mandelbaum expecting in-dept musical discussion
and disection. I don't think Mandelbaum claims to do this and I don't
know of any other *popular* show/showmusic critic who does.
So - the burning question is - when did he pee in YOUR Cornflakes?
Giosue
Hey, I hate Webber as much as the next guy, except for Aspects of Love,
which is truly a chamber opera.
But I meant the steadfast people who live for the old ways musicals
were
written, song/dialogue/song, etc etc. But LET THE ART FORM EVOLVE!
SUPPORT IT! Don't keep clamoring for what you had yesterday! Otherwise
there won't be a tomorrow for the art form!
HARLETT: Musical theatre - like opera before it - was a POPULAR as
well as lively art. Until musical theatre can figure out how to
culturally important and influential to a LARGE percentage of the
population, it doesn't matter how or if it evolves - as it will be
doing so in a vaccuum in the eyes of the world at large. At least in
its prime, musical theatre brought not only entertainment and
theatrical sparks to the general public, it brought them hit tunes as
well - and that's what made it and NY *important* to the rest of the
country and the world. So .... writing hit tunes would probably be a
good place for the musical to (de)evolve.
Giosue
> SN: Although that doesn't prevent amateurs from attempting (and failing
>
> with) WEST SIDE STORY on a regular basis. Today I read about a college
> production with gender-blind casting.
>
> Giosue
> I think that's a great idea! What's wrong with that? It makes the piece
>
> much more modern, there are gangs with men and women in them now. And
> not all gay/lesbian people are white, some are in gangs, and live in
> areas where their love is all the more forbidden because of it. I revel
>
> in the idea of two males playing Tony and Maria, and two women playing
> Riff and Bernardo, I think that's a great idea!
>
> HARLETT: You *are* joking, aren't you?
Of course I'm not joking! The Original production of WSS was wonderful
for many reasons, one of them was because it was so resonant with so
many people. This new production that was spoken of seems to try to do
that today! I don't know where you live, but I live in NYC, and I used
to work with homeless GLBT teenagers, many of whom were in gangs that
didn't know about their orientation. When I heard about this gender
blind casting, I immediately thought of those poor kids that I used to
work with. Finally, someone is doing something to make the work resonant
again.
>
> Giosue on CANDIDE:
> Its a great piece, but still not often performed by classical schools
> or companies, and the NYC opera production was just hideous...
>
> HARLETT: Here you show your ignornace. CANDIDE, along with Weill's
> STREET SCENE are two of only a handful of post-war works that ARE being
> performed with any frequency by the world's opera companies. And if
> you count Symphonies, various bits (if not full concerts or full opera
> productions) of WSS are also performed more often than just about any
> post-war work.
You're right, they are being performed, but not well. The English
National Opera's production of Street Scene is horrid and poorly sung,
NYC opera's production of Candide was flat and miscast (especially poor
Mr. Cullum, who I otherwise adore because he's one of the only old
school musical theater performers with an actual voice! The problem with
opera singers (and this is being worked on with the new guard) is that
acting is secondary to them, so when you do a work that requires it
(like Candide) then it falls flat because the acting does. And musical
theater production fall flat because the singing is often bad..
Why can't opera singers take acting lessons and musical theater
performers take LEGITIMATE singing lessons. As a vocal pedagogue for
both musical theater peformers and opera singers, I know the difference
in what they are doing, and the musical theater singers are ruining
their voices and could increase their longevity with just a few
adjustments, but thats another story.
>
> What post-war work(s) would you cite as being more readily embraced by
> the classical music world than Bernstein's (and Weill's) better
> efforts?
>
>
>>---------------------------------------
>>Mandlebaum is an idiot, and talks with such authority
>>----------------------------------------
>>SN: He's pretty straightforward compared to dreadful critics like
>>Brantley, Rich, Barnes, Lahr, and Lyons. I miss John Simon already.
>
>
> Giosue
> You're talking about theater critics, im talking about critics who
> specialize in musical theater
>
> HARLETT: Could you mention some specifics about Mandelbaum that bug
> you? And could you compare and contrast him with a "musical theatre
> writer" who you feel *is* qualified to write on the subejct.
I don't doubt Manldlebaum's credits as a theater historian, he
DEFINITELY knows his stuff, and for that I'm grateful. But when he
begins to talk about music, he shows his ignorance.
Musical theater will never be popular to a large percentage of the
population again because of pop music. In days gone by, the hits were
the taken from the stage and that brought the audience, but that will
never happen again. For everyone's groaning about Wildhorn (and I don't
like his music) he has tried to bridge the gap between pop music (albeit
the easy listening end of it) and musical theater, but he was shunned.
Totally locked out of the tony's for J&H (which was bad, but not bad
enough to not garner even a nomination!) He was writing with a pop
sensibility and no purist would touch him. So stop complaining about how
musical theater doesn't apply to a large percentage of the population,
you guys who live in your ivory tower of musical fans won't let it,
because them you won't be special anymore. Same thing with opera.
>
Giosue
>
> My opinion is that nothing else Bernstein composed is quite up to the
> quality of these four musicals. I've heard a lot of his stuff, and am
> always a little disappointed that it's not us soul-stirring as West
> Side Story. But what do I know? I'm just (like most of us here)
> someone who loves musicals. Lives 'em, breathes 'em, plays 'em, writes
> 'em. And I, like countless others, consider Bernstein in the top tier
> of composers.
>
Have you heard or seen his Mass? Or Trouble in Tahiti? Or A Quiet Place
(I'll admit a Quiet place is hard to get into) I love Bernstein, but I
think WSS is played out! Do something new with it! Thank god for that
Gender Blind casting!
Giosue
1600 (or White House Cantata, whatever you want to call it) is
FANTASTIC! I have a live recording of one of the original performances,
and I think its flat and boring! The music is poorly sung, especially by
the Miss America at the time, I can't remember her name. Thank god the
"Rehearse" music was reused in one of his orchestral works.
The white house music is just beautiful, especially the music between
Lud and Seen. The "classical" recording that was made was flawed, but
overall a wonderful piece. And imagine! People were actually SINGING
instead of talking on pitch, and not a good, clever talking on pitch
like Rex Harrison.
My problem with musical theater people who don't like legitimate voices
is that it's obvious they are more interested in the lyrics than the
music and think that anyone who sings with legato is going to have poor
diction. While I agree that often happens, especially because so many
American singers aren't trained in diction, especially in their own
language (The English National Opera is so bad at it that their
installing supertitles!) but all singers should be trained in diction
for singing. There is a new generations of excellent singers out there
who have both legato and diction, and it warms my heart to hear so much
good music sung so clearly and fluidly.
Light in the Piazza, while I like it, has one song in Italian that the
singer just butchers, and if he had any sense of legato, it would be
such a beautiful, incredible song.
BADDONIS
ever come out on CD?
Steve Newport
college (Florida Atlantic University) summer theatre production with
three Equity ringers as leads. It's not an experimental college
production. The only place the gender-blind thing is happening is with
the gang members. This sounds to me like: we couldn't get enough male
dancers. I've seen this before. Girls with beards in FIDDLER's bottle
dance, a girl as LA MANCHA's most callow muleteer.
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
Yep. And I own the recordings. His musicals are better.
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
<<<Steve Newport wrote: I also saw and loved a lot of 1600 PENNSYLVANIA
AVENUE. Oh for a Musical Theatre style recording.>>>
My problem with musical theater people who don't like legitimate voices
is that it's obvious they are more interested in the lyrics
SN: Much too simplistic.
---------------------------------------
than the music and think that anyone who sings with legato is going to
-----------------------------------------
SN: Patricia Routledge, Ken Howard and Reid Shelton were terrfific in
1600. And they weren't in a Cantata. Those lengthy operatic studio
versions of CANDIDE and WEST SIDE are practically unlistenable.
Giosue
So what? That's even more realistic. There are so many women in gangs
today, I don't see even the slightest problem.
Giosue
>
> Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
> <<<Steve Newport wrote: I also saw and loved a lot of 1600 PENNSYLVANIA
> AVENUE. Oh for a Musical Theatre style recording.>>>
> ---------------------------------------
> My problem with musical theater people who don't like legitimate voices
> is that it's obvious they are more interested in the lyrics
> ---------------------------------------
> SN: Much too simplistic.
I am making this diagnosis from talking to countless fans.
> ---------------------------------------
> than the music and think that anyone who sings with legato is going to
> have poor diction. While I agree that often happens........
> -----------------------------------------
> SN: Patricia Routledge, Ken Howard and Reid Shelton were terrfific in
> 1600. And they weren't in a Cantata. Those lengthy operatic studio
> versions of CANDIDE and WEST SIDE are practically unlistenable.
Those actors were very good. However, both Routledge and Howard have had
LEGITIMATE vocal training, even if they don't have the best voices in
the world.
The White House Cantata recording is fantastic! Especially the group
numbers, and the Monroviad. I can't imagine non legit voices singing
them, it ruins the music.
While I agree that the operatic recording of WSS is horrendous, the
operatic recording with Bernstein conducting is the best recording of
Candide out there. Its more complete, it has many more good singers,
(some bad) and it's what Bernstein wanted, as he was conducting.f
>
>
>
> http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
>
Giosue
Then there's no hope for you left.
Giosue
> did "1600 Pennsylvania Avenue"
> ever come out on CD?
>
No, it didn't but Deutsch Gramaphon made a great recording of the in
character music called "White House Cantata" with some incredible
singers and a great orchestra, it's definitely worth a listen.
You know, there's a reason that Bernstein withdrew 1600, most of it is
crappy, and he knew it.
Steve Newport
BAD...@webtv.net (BADDONIS)
ever come out on CD?
Only a humourless operatic studio recording.
Steve Newport
chris.c...@worldspan.com (Harlett O'Dowd) In agreement with many
others here, Mandelbaum certainly knows his post-war musical theatre
history, and I find his season summaries and (now, all too few) reviews
to be extremely informative and well thought-out.
I also think he's very *fair* and, as opposed to dispencing judgement
from on high, he writes with his readers in mind. In other words, if
covering a revival or revisal, he WILL point out whether the production
will *work* for most audiences who know the original. If a score's music
is *simplistic* or *complicated* he will discuss it in the piece and
note that fans of one style may like or dislike the piece more than he
did.
SN: And for the record, he thought PIAZZA was AG's most accessible
score.
----------------------------------
Of all the writers on the scene, I trust him the most and agree with him
the most. I only get into NYC a few times a year, so I only get to see,
at best, three or four productions. Mandelbaum helps me to spend my
entertainment dollars wisely and I appreciate it.
Steve Newport
tops...@nospam.net (Spelvin)
CANDIDE Overture was played at a classical concert, and she wrote: "This
music is too good to only be known to musical theatre types." I wanted
to write her, "What are these 'musical theatre types' to which you
sneeringly refer?"
Here's one of my faves from a critic of recordings. "I have to confess
I've never had much use for show music. The performers sing in that
over-enunciated fashion, with the voices too far in front of the
orchestra." Now-- would you guess that he was talking about
DREAMGIRLS!!!! One of the least theatrical and most pop sounding cast
recordings ever released. "Two different worlds..."
Steve Newport
between pop music (albeit the easy listening end of it) and musical
theater, but he was shunned. Totally locked out of the tony's for J&H
(which was bad, but not bad enough to not garner even a nomination!) He
was writing with a pop sensibility
SN: And applying it to period material so that the end result was often
laughable. (The story goes that during a recording session John Raitt
asked him "Frank-- why don't you write a modern show like Burt Bacharach
did?") With DRACULA apparently-- this finally caught up with FW. But his
shows have received Tony nominations, including J & H. (And IIRC,
Cuccioli won the Drama Desk and OCC Awards before losing the Tony to
James Naughton in CHICAGO.) But the critic proof J & H ran a long time.
And FW got two additional chances to make PIMPERNEL worse.
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
STORY mentioned is a college (Florida Atlantic University) summer
theatre production with three Equity ringers as leads. It's not an
experimental college production. The only place the gender-blind thing
is happening is with the gang members. This sounds to me like: we
couldn't get enough male dancers. I've seen this before. Girls with
beards in FIDDLER's bottle dance, a girl as LA MANCHA's most callow
muleteer.>>>
today, I don't see even the slightest problem.
SN: Of course the show doesn't take place today. It's about gangs of 50
years ago. For one thing, the Anybodys character makes no sense if there
are other girls in the gang. And, again, this is a semi-pro
stock/college production.
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
they don't have the best voices in the world.
The White House Cantata recording is fantastic! Especially the group
numbers, and the Monroviad. I can't imagine non legit voices singing
them,
SN: But the show is a musical play if not a musical comedy. It's not
really about the choral music. Economically, it can't be.
--------------------------------------
While I agree that the operatic recording of WSS is horrendous, the
---------------------------------------
SN: It's *too* complete. And too often stops telling the story to
musically masturbate.
---------------------------------------
it's what Bernstein wanted, as he was conducting.
SN: Then that's also true of WSS. My favorite recording of WSS is the
expanded soundtrack. CANDIDE: The OBCR. I find very little that was
added or revised to be interesting. And I've read and prefer Hellman's
book.
Giosue
DONT LISTEN!
White House Cantata is full of humour, but once again, one must THINK in
order to get it. I know that's asking a lot from those here, but please
try, you'll thank yourself!
Noel...@aol.com
> But I meant the steadfast people who live for the old ways musicals
> were
> written, song/dialogue/song, etc etc. But LET THE ART FORM EVOLVE!
> SUPPORT IT! Don't keep clamoring for what you had yesterday! Otherwise
> there won't be a tomorrow for the art form!
>
> HARLETT: Musical theatre - like opera before it - was a POPULAR as
> well as lively art. Until musical theatre can figure out how to
> culturally important and influential to a LARGE percentage of the
> population, it doesn't matter how or if it evolves -
The creators and producers of new musical theatre are in a strange sort
of bind. Some of the audience (and these are usually older folk)
insist that musicals sound like and resemble the hits that were created
more than a quarter century ago. "Give us a book, with dialogue and a
plot, and plenty of take-home tunes, and don't forget to dance!" I
honestly don't know if this sort of aversion to anything new exists in
other genres. Are new operas written to sound like Verdi? Do TV
networks say "We need something like That Girl"?
On the other side of the bind are the innovators, the people dedicated
to advancing the art form (they tend to be younger). There's an
audience out there for new musicals that don't replicate the old -
they're coming out of Lincoln Center thrilled and enlightened. But, I
think readers here might agree, there are these two different camps.
Harlett refers to musical theatre appealing to a large percentage of
the population - as it did into the 1960's, and I don't see how that's
a necessity. (And there oughta be a low about necessities.) We live
in an age of Narrowcasting. There are certain odd things that go out
into the world knowing that their receptive audience can only be a very
small part of the population.
So, if there's a cable music station dedicated to polkas, there's
clearly room, in this wide wide world, for musicals that appeal to only
one of the above-defined camps. And it's happening. Innovative shows
like The Light in the Piazza are reaching people who don't insist on
carbon copies of the composer's grandfather's works. And there are
in-the-style-of-the-mid-20th-century shows that play for a happy
audience of (mainly) blue-hairs.
There are loads of problems related to economics: A show needs enough
paying customers to be profitable, and it can be hard to entice enough
nostalgicists to pay the salaries of the big orchestra and large
ensemble they remember from their youth and fully expect to see.
Experimental works, offering the unfamiliar, can be a tougher "sell."
They usually happen in small theatres, and audiences venturing beyond
the beaten path have learned, from bitter experience, to be skeptical.
One problem that's UN-related to economics is the clucking disapproval
of Golden-Era-or-bust-bozos (you meet a lot of them here) who, without
experiencing the works in question, denigrate the efforts of those
trying to advance the form. The two camps can co-exist peacefully, but
it might help if one side didn't thumb its nose at the other.
Giosue
>
> Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
> both Routledge and Howard have had LEGITIMATE vocal training, even if
> they don't have the best voices in the world.
> The White House Cantata recording is fantastic! Especially the group
> numbers, and the Monroviad. I can't imagine non legit voices singing
> them,
> ------------------------------------
> SN: But the show is a musical play if not a musical comedy. It's not
> really about the choral music. Economically, it can't be.
I never said anything about choral music. I was talking basically about
the group number when the White House is about to burn, it takes trained
voices to make that number work, and it's a work of genius. But not a
choral number, whatever you mean by that. Using that kind of terminology
without really knowing what you're talking about is just what I mean.
> --------------------------------------
> While I agree that the operatic recording of WSS is horrendous, the
> operatic recording with Bernstein conducting is more complete
> ---------------------------------------
> SN: It's *too* complete. And too often stops telling the story to
> musically masturbate.
I agree there are some superfluous numbers in that version.
> ---------------------------------------
> it's what Bernstein wanted, as he was conducting.
> ---------------------------------------
> SN: Then that's also true of WSS. My favorite recording of WSS is the
> expanded soundtrack. CANDIDE: The OBCR. I find very little that was
> added or revised to be interesting. And I've read and prefer Hellman's
> book.
>
Hellman's book, while very inventive and interesting has little or
nothing to do with Voltaire's story.
Steve Newport
Gio...@Giosue.net (Giosue)
Have you heard or seen his Mass? Or Trouble in Tahiti?
--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
SN: You know, this really doesn't have to be personal.
Giosue
Giosue
Sorry, I should have said 'Then there is no hope for music theater left"
David Lawrence Levy
> My problem with musical theater people who don't like legitimate voices
> is that it's obvious they are more interested in the lyrics than the
> music and think that anyone who sings with legato is going to have poor
> diction.
One doesn't have to be more interested in one than the other to want both
performed at an acceptable level. On the opera side of the musical
spectrum, Dawn Upshaw is really the only "crossover" artist who'se been
able to consistently strike that balance (to my ears). Harolyn Blackwell
has her moments, as does Bryn Terfel, but I haven't heard enough of them
to say for certain.
On the theatre side of the divide, Audra MacDonald is probably the only
singer who could straddle in the other direction. People say Chenoweth
can as well, but her more legitimate stuff isn't to my taste. I think
we've all but lost the category of the "leading man" baritone star.
Stokes is just about the only one of his generation who even attempts
those roles on a regular basis, and while many like him, I don't think
he's up to the level of Drake, Raitt, Keel, etc.
David
Spelvin
news:42cfdac3$0$18650$1472...@news.sunsite.dk:
> Spelvin wrote:
>>>>Where, oh where are the musical fans with brains and a musical
>>>>education?
>>>
>>>There are quite a lot of them on this newsgroup, for a start.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Farrow!
>
> I didn't say you were among them.
>
>
No, but you implied it. I knew beneath your grumpy surface, if we dig
down deep enough (as Belle Schlumpfert would put it), we'd find a
pussycat.
Spelvin
--
"For the finest in Usenet messages since 1999."
Spelvin
> directed WONDERFUL TOWN for a community theatre. That's easily the
> most doable of the four.
Did you cut out "Conquering New York?"
Stephen Farrow
> SN: Although that doesn't prevent amateurs from attempting (and failing
>
> with) WEST SIDE STORY on a regular basis. Today I read about a college
> production with gender-blind casting.
>
> Giosue
> I think that's a great idea! What's wrong with that? It makes the piece
>
> much more modern, there are gangs with men and women in them now. And
> not all gay/lesbian people are white, some are in gangs, and live in
> areas where their love is all the more forbidden because of it. I revel
>
> in the idea of two males playing Tony and Maria, and two women playing
> Riff and Bernardo, I think that's a great idea!
>
> HARLETT: You *are* joking, aren't you?
>
> Giosue on CANDIDE:
> Its a great piece, but still not often performed by classical schools
> or companies, and the NYC opera production was just hideous...
>
> HARLETT: Here you show your ignornace. CANDIDE, along with Weill's
> STREET SCENE are two of only a handful of post-war works that ARE being
> performed with any frequency by the world's opera companies. And if
> you count Symphonies, various bits (if not full concerts or full opera
> productions) of WSS are also performed more often than just about any
> post-war work.
Indeed, "Street Scene", in particular is performed far *more* in opera
companies than in more standard theatrical venues, whereas "Candide" has had
non-operatic revivals on both sides of the Atlantic within the past 8 years.
--
Stephen
It's February. It's drizzling. Charlie Coleridge is discovered, unemployed
and homeless. He has enough painkillers to leave a heartless and uncaring
world behind. But first, he has to tie his cravat.
Harlett O'Dowd
On the theatre side of the divide, Audra MacDonald is probably the only
singer who could straddle in the other direction. People say Chenoweth
can as well, but her more legitimate stuff isn't to my taste. I think
we've all but lost the category of the "leading man" baritone star.
Stokes is just about the only one of his generation who even attempts
those roles on a regular basis, and while many like him, I don't think
he's up to the level of Drake, Raitt, Keel, etc.
HARLETT: Stokes isn't even close. Sadly, young male singers are not
trained to be baritones at all. And REAL bases are truly an endangered
species. But anyone coming up today who trains vocally is going to be
trained to be the next Colm Wilkinson or Rent-head. Anyone who is
trained for a stage career is going to be TRAINED to rely on a
microphone. It's not the performers' fault. They are given the tools
to make them the most marketable in today's market, so things like
diction and projection and a deep, ballsy vocal sound is NOT desirable.
There simply are not enough revivals of classic musicals in Equity
houses that require the training of a new generation of Raitts and
Drakes.
Friends of mine have been workshopping a new musical in various places
in New York the past couple of years and we repeatedly joke about my
coming up to play the villain - because - IN New York - in a 100 seat
house - there is not a starving baritone to be found who can handle the
music (and it's pretty hummable *simplistic* music.)
And guys, it's only going to get worse.
Stephen Farrow
> First of all some clarifications. The WEST SIDE STORY mentioned is a
> college (Florida Atlantic University) summer theatre production with
> three Equity ringers as leads. It's not an experimental college
> production. The only place the gender-blind thing is happening is with
> the gang members. This sounds to me like: we couldn't get enough male
> dancers.
Right. The (awful) production I was in had, for example, a female Doc and a
female Anybodys - not because of some daring gender-bending concept, but
because of who showed up to audition.
--
Stephen
Did anybody order an apocalypse?
Stephen Farrow
Actually, "Pimpernel", on CD at least, seems to me to be his most enjoyable
score (didn't see it in the theatre), largely because the story is essentially
a frothy pot-boiler anyway, and the show seems to have the good sense to wink
at its own silliness. You just *can't* treat the "Pimpernel" score with the
kind of po-faced seriousness that makes "Jekyll and Hyde" such a trial.
--
Stephen
Did that sentence just make some sense that I'm not in on?
Stephen Farrow
>
> chris.c...@worldspan.com (Harlett O'Dowd) In agreement with many
> others here, Mandelbaum certainly knows his post-war musical theatre
> history, and I find his season summaries and (now, all too few) reviews
> to be extremely informative and well thought-out.
> I also think he's very *fair* and, as opposed to dispencing judgement
> from on high, he writes with his readers in mind. In other words, if
> covering a revival or revisal, he WILL point out whether the production
> will *work* for most audiences who know the original. If a score's music
> is *simplistic* or *complicated* he will discuss it in the piece and
> note that fans of one style may like or dislike the piece more than he
> did.
> ----------------------------------
> SN: And for the record, he thought PIAZZA was AG's most accessible
> score.
He was right, though there are one or two songs in "Myths and Hymns" that are
more accessible than anything in "Piazza" ("There's a Shout", "How Can I Lose
You?").
--
Stephen
I could hop up on a unicycle and balance a wheelbarrow on my eyebrows
but I’m far … too … busy.
Stephen Farrow
> While I agree that the operatic recording of WSS is horrendous, the
> operatic recording with Bernstein conducting is the best recording of
> Candide out there. Its more complete, it has many more good singers,
> (some bad) and it's what Bernstein wanted, as he was conducting.f
Oh my God. Now you really HAVE to be joking.
"Candide" isn't just Bernstein's creation. The problem with that recording is
that it privileges the music over the other elements of the piece's content.
The show is essentially comic, and requires a very delicate balance between
the musical and the comedic requirements of the material. And on *that*
recording, the balance is way, WAY off. It has very little to do with the
spirit of the piece.
--
Stephen
Believe me, I have seen my dark side, and it is yucky.
Stephen Farrow
And Bernstein's conducting of his own music has little or nothing to do with
the spirit of the piece that he *and his collaborators* created.
--
Stephen
You're digging a big pit for yourself and wallpapering it with willies.
Stephen Farrow
> Giosue <Gio...@giosue.net> wrote:
>
>>My problem with musical theater people who don't like legitimate voices
>>is that it's obvious they are more interested in the lyrics than the
>>music and think that anyone who sings with legato is going to have poor
>>diction.
>
>
> One doesn't have to be more interested in one than the other to want both
> performed at an acceptable level. On the opera side of the musical
> spectrum, Dawn Upshaw is really the only "crossover" artist who'se been
> able to consistently strike that balance (to my ears). Harolyn Blackwell
> has her moments, as does Bryn Terfel, but I haven't heard enough of them
> to say for certain.
And Upshaw's "Glitter and be Gay" far, far outshines Blackwell's (and typing
that makes me think of a bookshop in Oxford...). Upshaw, in her recording,
seems to understand the satirical content of the piece completely.
Blackwell... doesn't.
Stephen Farrow
> Steve Newport wrote:
>
>>
>> BAD...@webtv.net (BADDONIS) did "1600 Pennsylvania Avenue"
>> ever come out on CD? -----------------------------------
>> Only a humourless operatic studio recording.
>>
>>
>> http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
>>
> DONT LISTEN!
>
> White House Cantata is full of humour,
Yes, but most of the singers miss it.
--
Stephen
I've Googled till I just can't Google no more.
Giosue
could your view of what the world was really like.
The Capeman took place during the same time period, much more realistic
Giosue
got all the humour, of course the singers get it, but they don't feel
the need to shove it in your face for you to get it.
It's all about the dumbification of the American Media. Don't let music
theater fall into it as well.
Giosue
Stephen Farrow
> That's not true at all. I heard White House Canata before 1600, and I
> got all the humour, of course the singers get it, but they don't feel
> the need to shove it in your face for you to get it.
That's far too easy an out. If the singers "got it", they certainly didn't
communicate it very well.
--
Stephen
I hope evil takes MasterCard.
Harlett O'Dowd
Why can't opera singers take acting lessons and musical theater
performers take LEGITIMATE singing lessons. As a vocal pedagogue for
both musical theater peformers and opera singers, I know the difference
in what they are doing, and the musical theater singers are ruining
their voices and could increase their longevity with just a few
adjustments, but thats another story.
HARLETT: As a singer who performs in both, I assure you that most - if
not all - opera singers who train today DO take acting lessons and most
- if not all stage directors in opera DO work on the acting with the
principal artists and chorus. However, mid-19th century opera is a
different animal from golden-age-musical theatre and even though some
opera singers occasionally get a chance to do a STREET SCENE or
CANDIDE, it's (currently) almost always a one-off. And if you don't
perform dialogue on a regular basis it can be a bit scary to jump back
into the ring. I did FIDELIO a few months ago and even that limited
amount of dialogue (in German) took more time to master than I think
any of those artists ecpected.
Giosue
I don't doubt Manldlebaum's credits as a theater historian, he
DEFINITELY knows his stuff, and for that I'm grateful. But when he
begins to talk about music, he shows his ignorance.
HARLETT: Until you can quote some specifics and compare and contrast
him with someone writing today whom you believe is NOT ignorant on the
subject, there is little reason to continue this sub-section in this
thread.
Giosue:
Musical theater will never be popular to a large percentage of the
population again because of pop music. In days gone by, the hits were
the taken from the stage and that brought the audience, but that will
never happen again. For everyone's groaning about Wildhorn (and I don't
like his music) he has tried to bridge the gap between pop music
(albeit
the easy listening end of it) and musical theater, but he was shunned.
Totally locked out of the tony's for J&H (which was bad, but not bad
enough to not garner even a nomination!) He was writing with a pop
sensibility and no purist would touch him.
HARLETT: Call me a cockeyed optimist, but I believe that 21st century
musical theatre CAN be popular with a large portion - if not majority -
of the population. But admitting defeat and going *only* for artistic
*advancement* will not solve the problem.
And for the record, I applaud Wildhorn's dream to bring the *popular*
back into musical theatre. Like Ashman before him, Wildhorn *gets it.*
Unfortunately, Wildhorn isn't a good enough pop music writer, let
alone musical dramatist to bridge the two worlds - and his obsession in
trying to write the next PHANTOM serves only to underline his failings.
I don't believe he should be given a free ride for *trying.* If he
can figure out how to master both forms and meld them together in one
work, I will be first on my feet to cheer. Until them, if I find his
output to be, shall we say, underwhelming, I shall hold him
artistically, dramatically and popularly accountable.
Giosue:
So stop complaining about how
musical theater doesn't apply to a large percentage of the population,
you guys who live in your ivory tower of musical fans won't let it,
because them you won't be special anymore. Same thing with opera.
HARLETT: You're *couldn't* be Mikey, could you?
Harlett O'Dowd
My problem with musical theater people who don't like legitimate voices
is that it's obvious they are more interested in the lyrics than the
music and think that anyone who sings with legato is going to have poor
diction.
HARLETT: Like Spelvin, SN and other *oldtimers* here, I might suggest
you give some of those 40s albums another listen. OKLAHOMA! was called
an operetta at the time - partially because it couldn't be easily
pigeon-holed into the cubbyhole "musical comedy" and partly because
Rodgers was VERY specific in how he wanted his shows to be sung.
Drake, Roberts and the rest had REAL voices. Everyone before the 1960s
was trained in diction and how to project their voices in a 1000 to
1500 seat house without amplification. Golden-era shows were written
almost entirely for *legitimate* voices and I assure most, if not all
the people here bemoaning the current state of the art would prefer
today's singers lived up to the standard set 50-60 years ago. But as I
wrote elsewhere in this thread, youngsters today aren't being trained
to do that. It's not that they can't, it's that they're being told NOT
to.
b or t k-c
> ... The (awful) production I was in had... a female Anybodys...
I'm confused, isn't Anybodys traditionally played by a female?
...................
"Stephen Farrow" <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:42d0763c$0$18649$1472...@news.sunsite.dk...
Stephen Farrow
>>... The (awful) production I was in had... a female Anybodys...
>
>
> I'm confused, isn't Anybodys traditionally played by a female?
No, *I'm* confused. You're right. I blame the Benadryl I'm having to take this
week!
Doc, however, isn't (and the Doc in that production was actually quite good).
--
Stephen
LORELAI: In the movie, only boy hobbits travel to Mount Doom, but that's
only because the girls went to do something even more dangerous.
GIRL: What?
LORELAI: Have you ever heard of a Brazilian bikini wax?
Harlett O'Dowd
Are new operas written to sound like Verdi?
HARLETT: No - but what post-Britten opera has been written
espesecially for the opera stage that has entered the repetoire? Is
there a connection? Could be. Critics, when writing about perhaps the
best reviewed new opera of my lifetime, A VIEW FROM THE BRIDGE
repeatedly mentioned that the piece does, infact, contain a liftable
tenor aria.
NOEL:
On the other side of the bind are the innovators, the people dedicated
to advancing the art form (they tend to be younger). There's an
audience out there for new musicals that don't replicate the old -
they're coming out of Lincoln Center thrilled and enlightened. But, I
think readers here might agree, there are these two different camps.
HARLETT: They need not be - they SHOULD not be and if you hope to make
your living SOLELY by writing for the stage, you better pray that
someone figures out how to push the envelope artistically AND cause a
commotion on the pop-cultural landscape.
NOEL:
Harlett refers to musical theatre appealing to a large percentage of
the population - as it did into the 1960's, and I don't see how that's
a necessity. (And there oughta be a low about necessities.) We live
in an age of Narrowcasting. There are certain odd things that go out
into the world knowing that their receptive audience can only be a very
small part of the population.
HARLETT: We live in a country where illiteracy is on the RISE. Before
the Depression *anyone* who had the tenacity to go into show business
could earn a living in the business. Not get rich, mind you, but be a
*working* actor, writer, etc. That's changed. This niche audience you
hope to placate will only shrink in time. It will never go away
completely, but it will get smaller - and it will get progressively
harder for you to break into it. It is in your own self-interest to
try to re-marry the two sides of the musical theatre coin.
Stephen Farrow
> NoelK...@aol.com
> Are new operas written to sound like Verdi?
>
> HARLETT: No - but what post-Britten opera has been written
> espesecially for the opera stage that has entered the repetoire? Is
> there a connection? Could be. Critics, when writing about perhaps the
> best reviewed new opera of my lifetime, A VIEW FROM THE BRIDGE
> repeatedly mentioned that the piece does, infact, contain a liftable
> tenor aria.
>
> NOEL:
> On the other side of the bind are the innovators, the people dedicated
> to advancing the art form (they tend to be younger). There's an
> audience out there for new musicals that don't replicate the old -
> they're coming out of Lincoln Center thrilled and enlightened. But, I
> think readers here might agree, there are these two different camps.
>
> HARLETT: They need not be - they SHOULD not be and if you hope to make
> your living SOLELY by writing for the stage, you better pray that
> someone figures out how to push the envelope artistically AND cause a
> commotion on the pop-cultural landscape.
I agree that the two need not and should not be different things - but it
seems these days that they very often *are* more or less as Noel described. I
think there *are* people out there who can bridge the gap - but shows that do
are few and far between, and the gap is growing wider.
--
Stephen
Philippa: Can we make this brew fairly speedy? I'm
worried about the traffic.
Twinkle: Well, I'm worried about burning me flipping mouth.
I've got a sex life to think of, you know.
David Lawrence Levy
> It's all about the dumbification of the American Media.
I just want to make sure everyone caught this. Maybe I'm guilty of
overplaying the humor, but if so, sue me.
David
Steve Newport
stephen...@gmail.com (Stephen Farrow) The (awful) production of
WSS I was in had, for example, a female Doc - not because of some daring
gender-bending concept, but because of who showed up to audition.
I've seen professional theatres do this: Krupke and Shrank are combined,
but he's called Krupke. Doc and Glad Hand are combined and she's called
Dot.
Steve Newport
dl...@ls03.fas.harvard.edu (David Lawrence Levy) People say
Chenoweth can as well, but her more legitimate stuff isn't to my taste.
SN: I prefer it.
--------------------------------
star. Stokes is just about the only one of his generation who even
attempts those roles
SN: And he's no Kiley or Drake.
Stephen Farrow
We had a (male, and pretty good) Shrank; Krupke and Glad Hand were combined,
but I was listed in the programme as playing two separate characters (and had
a different costume as Glad Hand).
--
Stephen
Don't speak Latin in front of the books.
Steve Newport
stephen...@gmail.com (Stephen Farrow) <<<Someone: Hellman's book,
while very inventive and interesting has little or nothing to do with
Voltaire's story.>>>
with the spirit of the piece that he *and his collaborators* created.
And again, be it FLOWER DRUM SONG, MAME, SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS, LITTLE
ME, CAMELOT, etc.-- I say source is ultimately irrelevant.
Steve Newport
stephen...@gmail.com (Stephen Farrow) WILDHORN: Actually,
"Pimpernel", on CD at least, seems to me to be his most enjoyable score
(didn't see it in the theatre), largely because the story is essentially
a frothy pot-boiler anyway, and the show seems to have the good sense to
wink at its own silliness. You just *can't* treat the "Pimpernel" score
with the kind of po-faced seriousness that makes "Jekyll and Hyde" such
a trial.
And an unintentional hoot? I saw PIMPERNEL 1 (the Peter Hunt version
with a stage full of character actors and less vocally pyrotechnic
leads) and enjoyed some of it. The pop stuff seemed all the more out of
place and indulgent next to the more period stuff.
Steve Newport
CLth...@gmail.com (Giosue)
But in WEST SIDE STORY, only one.
Steve Newport
CLth...@gmail.com (Giosue)
course the singers get it
If they do, they're not putting it across.
Steve Newport
chris.c...@worldspan.com (Harlett O'Dowd) Until you (Giosue) can
quote some specifics and compare and contrast him (Mandelbaum) with
someone writing today whom you believe is NOT ignorant on the subject
thread. Call me a cockeyed optimist, but I believe that 21st century
of the population. But admitting defeat and going *only* for artistic
*advancement* will not solve the problem.
SN: A-men. There's no reason the traditional style has to die out.
-----------------------------------
Unfortunately, Wildhorn isn't a good enough pop music writer, let alone
musical dramatist to bridge the two worlds - and his obsession in trying
to write the next PHANTOM serves only to underline his failings. I don't
be Mikey, could you?
-------------------------------------
SN: I still think ValleyBoy. Or the illegitimate daughter of Katz (his
blue hair post was, as usual, insulting, mean- spirited and factually
questionable) and Jesse Jones. BFS.
Steve Newport
stephen...@gmail.com (Stephen Farrow) I agree that the two need
not and should not be different things - but it seems these days
In NY, the yearly art house musicals don't run. On or off-Broadway,
awards or no awards, new or revivals. (I'm thinking PARADE, A MAN OF NO
IMPORTANCE, AMOUR, A CLASS ACT, ASSASSINS etc.
Steve Newport
chris.c...@worldspan.com (Harlett O'Dowd) to Noel Katz: if you
hope to make your living SOLELY by writing for the stage, you better
pray that someone figures out how to push the envelope artistically AND
hope to placate will only shrink in time. It will never go away
completely, but it will get smaller - and it will get progressively
harder for you to break into it. It is in your own self-interest to try
to re-marry the two sides of the musical theatre coin.
It's in everyone's best interest.
Stephen Farrow
Right - though "Piazza" *may* break the trend if it survives through its
scheduled extension.
--
Stephen
Staff party? I wish I had the courage to be bourgeois.
Giosue
the rise.
Steve Newport
Re: Peter Pan
stephen...@gmail.com (Stephen Farrow) <<<In NY, the yearly art
house musicals don't run. On or off-Broadway, awards or no awards, new
or revivals. (I'm thinking PARADE, A MAN OF NO IMPORTANCE, AMOUR, A
CLASS ACT, ASSASSINS etc.>>>
scheduled extension.
And a while back I read that a tour is planned. PARADE toured as well.
Stephen Farrow
> With the rise of E-mail and the internet, illiteracy is anything BUT on
> the rise.
>
sometimes, but everyone's spelling's really bad. It's depressing."
--
Stephen
Have you tried jamming your head in the tumble-drier and switching on?
Stephen Farrow
And "Parade" got rather better reviews on the road than it did in New York
(where it attracted some magnificently stupid reviews from the critics).
--
Stephen
Dave: There are things in this living world far sweeter than
anything the great beyond has to offer us.
Lisa: Like love?
Dave: I was talking about coffee.
Giosue
Giosue
it be?
Stephen Farrow
> Poor spelling doesn't equal illiteracy.
>
you are responding?
(This is usenet, not a message board - the fact that you are posting via
google groups and can therefore opt to see the thread in tree format does not
mean that everybody else will receive it in the same order in which you are
seeing it. You need to give some context).
And you are right that poor spelling doesn't necessarily equal illiteracy -
that was a cheap shot, I admit - but neither does the proliferation of the
internet and email necessarily imply any great rise in literacy skills.
--
Stephen
This is really starting to resemble a scene from Fame.
Giosue
know how to link anything properly.
Actually the proliferation does necessarily imply a rise in literacy
skills, because you have to read in order to use it.
Stephen Farrow
> Sorry about using google groups, im not home right now. and I don't
> know how to link anything properly.
When you respond to a message, click "show options" at the TOP of the message,
rather than "reply" at the bottom, then click "reply", and you'll find the
message quoted for you.
>
> Actually the proliferation does necessarily imply a rise in literacy
> skills, because you have to read in order to use it.
Ha! Don't spend much time on usenet, do you?
--
Stephen
Come share in the joy of our groove thang.
Stephen Farrow
> When you respond to a message, click "show options" at the TOP of the
> message, rather than "reply" at the bottom, then click "reply", and
> you'll find the message quoted for you.
Clarification (oh God it's late) - click "show options" at the top of the
message, then click "reply" on the list of options, and you'll get the message
you're replying to quoted in the text entry window.
--
Stephen
Feel my skills, donkey donkey donkey donkey donkey
Steve Newport
CLth...@gmail.com (Giosue)
it be?
What?
Giosue
While there were female gang members in that era, one member pointed
out that there WERENT in WSS and that's why there shouldn't be any
female sharks or jets.
I think the argument is ludicrous, just because art depicts life in a
skewed way for the audience member doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix
it later, especially if the piece is going to be perennial (sp?) and
will be a benchmark for people.
Jesse Jones
That does not follow at all. People who already were literate now have
a new vehicle, the internet. The proliferation of internet forums does
not indicate a rise in literacy.
Steve Newport
chris.c...@worldspan.com (Harlett O'Dowd)<<<Glosue: there are
gangs with men and women in them now. And not all gay/lesbian people are
white, some are in gangs, and live in areas where their love is all the
more forbidden because of it. I revel in the idea of two males playing
Tony and Maria, and two women playing Riff and Bernardo, I think that's
a great idea!>>>
-------------------------------
You *are* joking, aren't you?
--------------------------------
Apparently not. BFS.
Jesse Jones
>
> The creators and producers of new musical theatre are in a strange sort
> of bind. Some of the audience (and these are usually older folk)
> insist that musicals sound like and resemble the hits that were created
> more than a quarter century ago. "Give us a book, with dialogue and a
> plot, and plenty of take-home tunes, and don't forget to dance!" I
> honestly don't know if this sort of aversion to anything new exists in
> other genres.
Legend has it that Bob Dylan was booed off the stage of the Newport
Foll Festival in 1964 when he took the stage with an electrical band.
The Beatles lost fans and generated controversy when their music pushed
envelopes in the late sixties.
Country music fans decried the influence of rock and roll on their genre.
Opera purists protested the introduction of supertitles, didn't they?
I think it is a universal problem.
Jesse Jones
> Stephen Farrow <stephen...@gmail.com> spewed out in
> news:42cfdac3$0$18650$1472...@news.sunsite.dk:
>
>
>>Spelvin wrote:
>>
>>>>>Where, oh where are the musical fans with brains and a musical
>>>>>education?
>>>>
>>>>There are quite a lot of them on this newsgroup, for a start.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks, Farrow!
>>
>>I didn't say you were among them.
>>
>>
>
>
> No, but you implied it. I knew beneath your grumpy surface, if we dig
> down deep enough (as Belle Schlumpfert would put it), we'd find a
> pussycat.
>
> Spelvin
>
A discerning pussycat would scratch your eyes out.
Matthew Winn
> The creators and producers of new musical theatre are in a strange sort
> of bind. Some of the audience (and these are usually older folk)
> insist that musicals sound like and resemble the hits that were created
> more than a quarter century ago. "Give us a book, with dialogue and a
> plot, and plenty of take-home tunes, and don't forget to dance!" I
> honestly don't know if this sort of aversion to anything new exists in
> other genres. Are new operas written to sound like Verdi? Do TV
> networks say "We need something like That Girl"?
I don't think it's an aversion to anything new. I think it's an
aversion to anything bad.
Although there are some wonderful new musicals out there that do
manage to break with tradition, there are a depressing number that
appear to have been created by people who think that being different
is sufficient in itself, and the result is such utter crap as you
would not believe. When a show like Closer To Heaven is widely
despised it isn't, as some claimed at the time, because audiences are
stuck in the past. It's because they're stuck with having paid good
money to see a couple of hours of the worst writing in the history of
live entertainment.
It's not just older folk who like the traditional style of shows. The
traditional styles are popular because they work as well today as they
did in the past, and merely because new shows like Billy Elliot or the
smaller-scale Honk! are written to the same basic formula of dialogue
and hummable tunes as the shows of five or six decades ago doesn't
make them any less exciting and vibrant today.
> On the other side of the bind are the innovators, the people dedicated
> to advancing the art form (they tend to be younger). There's an
> audience out there for new musicals that don't replicate the old -
> they're coming out of Lincoln Center thrilled and enlightened.
What concerns me is that "different" is seen as an end in itself and
"traditional" somehow defective. There's nothing wrong with doing
something different if it serves the show, and I've seen some strong
productions that have offered excellent entertainment without going
anywhere near the tried and trusted formulae, but all too often those
who see themselves as advancing the art form are merely forcing the
show to serve the chosen objective of being different.
Advancing the art form is something that comes as a result of the
work. Starting out with the objective of doing something different
generally results in a load of pretentious wank that's more than
a little reminiscent of the punk movement in popular music: new,
unusual, untraditional, but almost never any good.
--
Matthew
[If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]