Solved! Why nobody remembers Kirk!
Jason Snell
References to Kirk have been surpressed in the time of TNG to avoid
offending the Klingons. Perhaps the most visible appearance of Kirk
in history would be the Klingon ambassador's demand that "There shall
be no peace so long as Kirk lives"... the Klingons considered Kirk to be a
criminal (ho, ho, ho) for Genesis, among other reasons.
It seems to me Kirk could be sort of a scapegoat for all the Klingon-Fed
hostilities back then. Say he was a war-monger, delete references to him
from academy books, and bury the guy. If it keeps the Klingons happy..
In which case, academy cadets will miss out on two things: Kirk's amazing
insights on bluffing, and his amazing insights on how to pick up women on
alien worlds.. :)
-jason
--
Jason Snell / jsn...@ucsd.edu / University of California, San Diego
"Fire BAD! Bread GOOD!" -- Frankenstein
Timothy W. Lynch
>How about this theory:
>References to Kirk have been surpressed in the time of TNG to avoid
>offending the Klingons. Perhaps the most visible appearance of Kirk
>in history would be the Klingon ambassador's demand that "There shall
>be no peace so long as Kirk lives"... the Klingons considered Kirk to be a
>criminal (ho, ho, ho) for Genesis, among other reasons.
>It seems to me Kirk could be sort of a scapegoat for all the Klingon-Fed
>hostilities back then. Say he was a war-monger, delete references to him
>from academy books, and bury the guy. If it keeps the Klingons happy..
Hmm. I think I can buy that one. I'm not sure I would claim that, since
I still don't believe he's been intentionally left out of the history books,
but revisionist history is common enough.
>In which case, academy cadets will miss out on two things: Kirk's amazing
>insights on bluffing, and his amazing insights on how to pick up women on
>alien worlds.. :)
Three things. Let's not forget his amazing insights on hairpieces. :-)
Tim Lynch
Marcus S. Yoo
>
...(theory of supressing history of Kirk to keep Klingons happy)...
>
>In which case, academy cadets will miss out on two things: Kirk's amazing
>insights on bluffing, and his amazing insights on how to pick up women on
>alien worlds.. :)
If that's the case, how do you explain Riker!
He seems to know how to bluff... He seems to know how to pickup alien women...
>-jason
>
>--
>Jason Snell / jsn...@ucsd.edu / University of California, San Diego
> "Fire BAD! Bread GOOD!" -- Frankenstein
--
Marcus S. Yoo m...@siemens.com | Often-wrong's got a broken heart...
Siemens Corporate Research, Inc | ... can't even tell his boys apart.
755 College Rd E 609-734-3313 | -- Lore (to/about Dr. Soongh), "Brothers",
Princeton NJ 08540 fax:6565 | -- Star Trek: The Next Generation
--
Marcus S. Yoo m...@siemens.com | Often-wrong's got a broken heart...
Siemens Corporate Research, Inc | ... can't even tell his boys apart.
755 College Rd E 609-734-3313 | -- Lore (to/about Dr. Soongh), "Brothers",
Princeton NJ 08540 fax:6565 | -- Star Trek: The Next Generation
Carrie L Bullington
[stuff about Klingons deleted]
>
>In which case, academy cadets will miss out on two things: Kirk's amazing
>insights on bluffing, and his amazing insights on how to pick up women on
>alien worlds.. :)
I haven't noticed that Picard is lacking in ability to attract
women (certainly not on this net!!)...there was the episode where
his former lover appeared ("you're still damn sexy..." or something
like that), the woman he met on "holiday," Ardra...others?? Besides,
maybe Capt. Picard doesn't need to prove his masculinity by romancing
every woman in every galaxy like SOME Captains we know...
BTW, I've read a lot about what Wm. Shatner had to say at the
Boston and NYC cons this past weekend -- but what about Patrick
Stewart?? Pardon the pun, but, "Enquiring" minds want to know!!
Michael Rawdon
>In article <53...@siemens.siemens.com> m...@demon.siemens.com (Marcus S. Yoo) writes:
>>In article <16...@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> jsn...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Jason Snell) writes:
>>>In which case, academy cadets will miss out on two things: Kirk's amazing
>>>insights on bluffing, and his amazing insights on how to pick up women on
>>>alien worlds.. :)
>Also, with the exception of "Angel One"(?) and one of the upcoming episodes,
>how many times have women "picked up" Riker? Seems like several got Kirk
>(Not including the Enterprise :-). "Elaan of Troius" and "The City on the
>Edge of Forever" come to mind as examples.
Well, I'd certainly debate whether or not Elaan "got" Kirk. He seemed to
be fighting her influence pretty strongly, and succeeding too!
And, of course, Edith Keeler and Kirk "got" each other.
--
Michael Rawdon raw...@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Internet)
Tulane University, New Orleans, Louisiana CS6FECU@TCSVM (Bitnet)
"What a piece of work is man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties;
in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in
apprehension how like a god: the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals!
And yet to me what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me..."
- William Shakespeare, _Hamlet_, II, ii
James P. Callison
>>In which case, academy cadets will miss out on two things: Kirk's amazing
>>insights on bluffing, and his amazing insights on how to pick up women on
>>alien worlds.. :)
>If that's the case, how do you explain Riker!
>He seems to know how to bluff... He seems to know how to pickup alien women...
>
at least once (The Best of Both Worlds, to Shelby), possibly more times
which I don't remember.:-)
Also, with the exception of "Angel One"(?) and one of the upcoming episodes,
how many times have women "picked up" Riker? Seems like several got Kirk
(Not including the Enterprise :-). "Elaan of Troius" and "The City on the
Edge of Forever" come to mind as examples.
James
--
James P. Callison Terminal Operator UCS/AUS, University of Oklahoma
JCal...@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu /\/\/\/\ JPCa...@uokmax.ecn.uoknor
You've got to dance with who brung you, Swing with who swung you, Life ain't no forty yard dash, Be in it for the long run, In the long run you'll have more fun
If you dance with who brung you to the bash. -Asleep At The Wheel, "Dance with Who Brung You"
William D Moore
>
>References to Kirk have been surpressed in the time of TNG to avoid
>offending the Klingons. Perhaps the most visible appearance of Kirk
>in history would be the Klingon ambassador's demand that "There shall
>be no peace so long as Kirk lives"... the Klingons considered Kirk to be a
>criminal (ho, ho, ho) for Genesis, among other reasons.
Somehow, I don't think that's it. When reference was made to Captain Kirk
in the TNG episode "The Naked Now", Picard read Kirk's name from the
computer log as if he had never heard his name before.
Will @ Pitt
Timothy W. Lynch
>Somehow, I don't think that's it. When reference was made to Captain Kirk
>in the TNG episode "The Naked Now", Picard read Kirk's name from the
>computer log as if he had never heard his name before.
Oh, nonsense. Picard read it. Period. He didn't read it with confusion, he
didn't read it with awe at having to read the name of one so worshiped by
fans everywhere...he just _read_ it. Period. It was routine.
Sheesh.
Tim Lynch
Aldo Castillo
>jsn...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Jason Snell) writes:
>> (TNG) academy cadets will miss out on two things: Kirk's amazing
>>insights on bluffing, and his amazing insights on how to pick up women on
>>alien worlds.. :)
>
>Three things. Let's not forget his amazing insights on hairpieces. :-)
I would have to add number four: Kirk's amazing insight on overacting ;-)
Aldo
ronald thomas hart
I really miss Wesley Crusher!! I hope they bring him back next season.
I think Jordie and Data really miss him! I like the first Next generation
when he came on the bridge and Picard said that he knew his father.
Does any know if Picard is really Wesely's father, and will he be
back next season and actually get laid????
Please send me some replies
Ronny
Atsushi Kanamori
>
> I really miss Wesley Crusher!!
If you say so...
>I hope they bring him back next season.
Don't count on it. WW left TNG in order to do movies --- there's no
indication that he'll be back on a regular basis (certainly not for Season 5)
>I think Jordie and Data really miss him!
I haven't seen any indication of this at all. In fact, from THE LOSS
up through HALF A LIFE, the writers and characters have completely
ignored the fact that WC ever existed.
> Does any know if Picard is really Wesely's father, and will he be
>back next season and actually get laid????
Yes, I believe Picard will be back next season (:-)
> Please send me some replies
Here's one.
. . . .
: : : :. : : :.. .: : . : .: .
::::::::::.: :::::::.::::::?::::.:
------------ ---------------------------------------------------------
TNG Lifelines: From "Yesterday's Enterprise" To "Drumhead" - ("This is
Captain William Riker of the Klingon cruiser Pagh. I hereby order you
to lower your shields and surrender." - Capt. William Riker (I know
this isn't from "Drumhead" but I liked "AMoH" better so...)
Robert A Seace
>In article <122...@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> rh...@anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu (ronald thomas hart) writes:
>>
>>I think Jordie and Data really miss him!
>
>I haven't seen any indication of this at all. In fact, from THE LOSS
>up through HALF A LIFE, the writers and characters have completely
>ignored the fact that WC ever existed.
No, they don't ever seem to go to the bathroom, do they? :-) :-)
(For those that have no idea what I mean, WC stands for Water Closet, which
is the French phrase for a bathroom.)
||=========================================================================||
|| Robert A. Seace || Sophomore at UNH || Email: ras...@unhd.unh.edu ||
||=========================================================================||
"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men,
women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were
real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri." - THGTTG
Live long and prosper.
Dave Schaumann
>
> I really miss Wesley Crusher!! I hope they bring him back next season.
Gah. Watch the old re-runs if you want to see Weasly...
For me, he's too much the nice-boy wonderkind and too little anything else.
>I think Jordie and Data really miss him!
I don't get where you see this. Apart from this week's episode, I haven't
noticed any mention of Weasly at all since "Final Mission".
> I like the first Next generation
>when he came on the bridge and Picard said that he knew his father.
> Does any know if Picard is really Wesely's father, and will he be
>back next season and actually get laid????
I don't know what makes you think Picard might be Weasly's father. And
nobody has sex on television. It's too easy to fall off. ;-)
Dave Schaumann | There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool
da...@cs.arizona.edu | following it. - Niven's Law # 16
Michael L. Kaufman
> This is not Douglas Passey. This is his daughter. He wants me to make sure
>everyone knows this is not him because he is not a Trekkie and would be
>embarrassed if anyone he knew saw this and thought he liked ST:TNG. His loss.
How many people out there would like to put Wesley and Jaci into a shuttle-craft
and send it off on a one way trip to Alpha Centuri?
As usual, no offence intended.
--
Michael Kaufman | I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on
kaufman | fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in
@eecs.nwu.edu | the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be
| lost in time - like tears in rain. Time to die. Roy Batty
Doug Passey
This is not Douglas Passey. This is his daughter. He wants me to make sure
everyone knows this is not him because he is not a Trekkie and would be
embarrassed if anyone he knew saw this and thought he liked ST:TNG. His loss.
me. He is a little too goody-goody from time to time, but is also the cutest
boy in the Galaxy. My dad thinks this is SO funny.
Capt. Picard is NOT Wesley's father. You watch too many soap operas. Star
Trek: the Next Generation is NOT a soap opera.
I think they should bring him back. Unfortunately, Will Wheaton has left
to do some feature films and probably won't be coming back. You know why he
left? People like the person who called him Weasly made such a fuss over Wesley
that the writers got scared and didn't give him anything to do. If I were Will
Wheaton, I would leave too. It wouldn't be any fun sitting around saying "Aye,
sir" all the time.
If you like Will Wheaton, he's in the movie Toy Soldiers. My dad won't
take me because it's R rated. I'm going to ask my mom to take me insted.
Don't feel bad because other people made fun of you because you like
Wesley. I like him too. If they don't like him, that's their problem.
-Jaci (major Wesley fan) Passey
Robert A Seace
>everyone knows this is not him because he is not a Trekkie and would be
>embarrassed if anyone he knew saw this and thought he liked ST:TNG. His loss.
> I miss Wesley too. The person who called him Weasly better stay away from
The "person" (singular) who called him Weasly? Hah! I think that
almost everyone on this group has called him Weasly as some time. Lighten
up, it's just a joke.
> He is a little too goody-goody from time to time, but is also the cutest
>boy in the Galaxy. My dad thinks this is SO funny.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
He must have a good sense of humor, because I think so too. :-)
> Capt. Picard is NOT Wesley's father. You watch too many soap operas. Star
>Trek: the Next Generation is NOT a soap opera.
Sometimes I wonder. :-)
> I think they should bring him back. Unfortunately, Will Wheaton has left
>to do some feature films and probably won't be coming back. You know why he
>left? People like the person who called him Weasly made such a fuss over Wesley
>that the writers got scared and didn't give him anything to do. If I were Will
>Wheaton, I would leave too. It wouldn't be any fun sitting around saying "Aye,
>sir" all the time.
The writers "didn't give him anything to do"?!?! Huh?! What are you
talking about? I'd say that Wesley has saved the ship more times than anyone
else, plus he was given acting ensign rank, then was promoted to FULL ensign
(without even having to go through the academy!)... Nothing to do, indeed!
> If you like Will Wheaton, he's in the movie Toy Soldiers. My dad won't
>take me because it's R rated. I'm going to ask my mom to take me insted.
> Don't feel bad because other people made fun of you because you like
>Wesley. I like him too. If they don't like him, that's their problem.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
True, and if you do like him, then that's your problem as well. :-)
(Personally, I don't despise the little brat as much as some, and I certainly
have nothing against Will Wheaton, but Weasly...er, Wesley (sorry :-) is an
annoying little twit. I think that it's better that he's gone from TNG. But,
this is all just IMHO; if you have a different opinion, that's fine with me.)
||=========================================================================||
|| Robert A. Seace || Sophomore at UNH || Email: ras...@unhd.unh.edu ||
||=========================================================================||
"Hey, this is terrific! Someone down there is trying to kill us!" - THGTTG
Live long and prosper.
Jeff W. Hyche
> I miss Wesley too.
I don't. Not that I hated Wesley, he just did nothing for the
show and now that he has left I see no difference in the show.
> Capt. Picard is NOT Wesley's father. You watch too many soap operas. Star
>Trek: the Next Generation is NOT a soap opera.
The Next Generationis a Space Opera.
> If you like Will Wheaton, he's in the movie Toy Soldiers. My dad won't
>take me because it's R rated. I'm going to ask my mom to take me insted.
> -Jaci (major Wesley fan) Passey
I used to do the same thing when I was young.
--
// Jeff Hyche
There can be only one! \\ // Usenet: hyc...@infonode.ingr.com
\X/ Freenet: ap...@po.CWRU.Edu
Atsushi Kanamori
You're entitled to your opinion, but was it absolutely necessary to
post three times on the subject?
>The person who called him Weasly better stay away from
>me. He is a little too goody-goody from time to time, but is also the cutest
>boy in the Galaxy.
My problem with him is that he's so bland (but he's not the only one.)
> Capt. Picard is NOT Wesley's father. You watch too many soap operas. Star
>Trek: the Next Generation is NOT a soap opera.
Oh? We just had 'soap' month on TNG (QPid, Drumhead, Half, Host)
Besides, a "father" revelation does not a soap opera make. THE EMPIRE STRIKES
BACK wasn't a soap either.
> I think they should bring him back. Unfortunately, Will Wheaton has left
>to do some feature films and probably won't be coming back.
>You know why he left?
No. Do you (as opposed to blatant speculation, that is?)
>People like the person who called him Weasly made such a fuss over Wesley
>that the writers got scared and didn't give him anything to do. If I were Will
>Wheaton, I would leave too. It wouldn't be any fun sitting around saying "Aye,
>sir" all the time.
Plausible, but I haven't heard any hard substantiated facts about the
reasons for his departure.
Chuck Anderson
>> do...@hplsla.HP.COM (not really Doug Passey) writes:
>> I miss Wesley too. The person who called him Weasly better stay away from
>>me. ^^^^^^
> The "person" (singular) who called him Weasly? Hah! I think that
>almost everyone on this group has called him Weasly as some time. Lighten
>up, it's just a joke.
I don't think that Will considered death threats as a JOKE!
> .......... I think that it's better that he's gone from TNG. But,
Oh yes. Since Wesley left the TNG has just gotten SO MUCH better.
(Gag, puke, ptooey. "The Host" is the first TNG episode that I've walked out
on. I had better things to do. I almsot stopped watching the "Robin Hood"
episode. Gag me with a crossbow. THIS WEEK I got mad as hell and I couldn't
take it anymore. What self indulgent crap!)
--
*************************************************************************
Chuck Anderson uucp : uunet!isis!cla
Boulder, Co. (303) 494-6278 internet: c...@isis.cs.du.edu
*************************************************************************
Vidiot
<In article <1845...@hplsla.HP.COM> do...@hplsla.HP.COM (Doug Passey) writes:
<> This is not Douglas Passey. This is his daughter. He wants me to make sure
<>everyone knows this is not him because he is not a Trekkie and would be
<>embarrassed if anyone he knew saw this and thought he liked ST:TNG. His loss.
<
<How many people out there would like to put Wesley and Jaci into a shuttle-craft
<and send it off on a one way trip to Alpha Centuri?
By the sounds of it, Jaci would just love that.
--
harvard\ att!nicmad\ spool.cs.wisc.edu!astroatc!vidiot!brown
Vidiot ucbvax!uwvax..........!astroatc!vidiot!brown
rutgers/ decvax!nicmad/ INTERNET:vidiot!brown%astr...@spool.cs.wisc.edu
Gavroche
>
> This is not Douglas Passey. This is his daughter. He wants me to make
>sure
>everyone knows this is not him because he is not a Trekkie and would be
>embarrassed if anyone he knew saw this and thought he liked ST:TNG. His loss.
I agree, this is definitely his loss. I dont know whether or not you read
this group regularly, or if you just posted this once. Thus I have no idea
whether or not you in particular will see mine or anybody else's response.
but others might be interested in what I have to say, so here goes:
> I miss Wesley too. The person who called him Weasly better stay away from
>me. He is a little too goody-goody from time to time, but is also the cutest
>boy in the Galaxy. My dad thinks this is SO funny.
it is funny. But understandable. When I was much younger (perhaps close to yo
ur age, i have no idea how old you are) when Capt. Steubing of the Love Boat
adopted "Vicki" as his daughter I looked forward to every episode. It may or
May not be a coincidence but I have some recollection that her real name was
Jill Wheaton (of course, I could also have a brain tumor making me insane and
thus prone to completely wrong memories) Are these two related?
However, while these crushes are understandable, we all have them, we have to
try to keep a non-biased attitude as well. Just because Wil is cute, doesnt
make him a good actor, and it doesnt make the character Wesley a good character
> Capt. Picard is NOT Wesley's father. You watch too many soap operas. Star
>Trek: the Next Generation is NOT a soap opera.
Correct, Picard is not wesley's father. Somebody else asked the person who
posted this erroneous statement "How could one think Picard was his father."
I had a roommate earlier this year who thought that too, and I couldnt figure
out why he thought that. However, there are these facts:
1: There is definitely a relationship between Crusher and Picard evident in
many episodes.
2: Wesley's father isnt mentioned very often.
3: Picard acts as a father figure to Wesley a lot
4: Picard is uncomfortable around Wesley a lot (though Picard has said he is
uncomfortable among all children)
If someone hasnt seen all the episodes. Especially the one (was it entitled
Family?) where he views the tape his father left him. An erroneous conclusion
could be drawn.
The major relationship between Beverly and Jean-Luc i think is based on the
fact that Picard was the one who brought Beverly the news that her husband
was dead. Is this correct?
> I think they should bring him back. Unfortunately, Will Wheaton has left
>to do some feature films and probably won't be coming back. You know why he
>left?
He left to do feature films. You said so yourself, but probably without
realizing you had hit the reason on the nail. He has said that it was his
decision (as opposed to the writers or his girlfriend's urgings)
It is possible that he was getting tired of the Supergenius kid role
However, and this is important, he said on "Into the Night with Rick Dees"
That his relationship with the actors and writers had NOTHING to do with his
leaving the show, that the relationship was excellent.
>that the writers got scared and didn't give him anything to do. If I were Will
>Wheaton, I would leave too. It wouldn't be any fun sitting around saying "Aye,
>sir" all the time.
I agree with others in that you should go back and watch some old episodes.
He was given A LOT to do. Check out the episode (I often forget titles, sorry)
Where the planet kidnaps all the kids in order to perpetuate their race
(hmmm. When the Bough Breaks?) He was the lead character in that episode.
There are a lot of other examples too.
> If you like Will Wheaton, he's in the movie Toy Soldiers. My dad won't
>take me because it's R rated. I'm going to ask my mom to take me insted.
I have seen Toy Soldiers. Even though there is violence in the movie, I
dont think it is that bad of a movie (ratings-wise). I have no idea how
old you are, but if you are at least 13 Id say you are old enough to see it.
But that is just one person's opinion. I am against ratings of all kind
myself. But that is a political opinion.
If your mother says no too, wait until it comes out on video, and maybe you
can see it at a friend's house with more lenient parents.
> Don't feel bad because other people made fun of you because you like
>Wesley. I like him too. If they don't like him, that's their problem.
>
I like the character Wesley too...(though not because he is cute)...But I
think the supergenius part was overdone. If they had left out the episodes
with "The Traveller" in it (or just left out Wesley's Role) I would be much
happier. Not only is Wesley a supergenius, he's destined to expand the
abilities of mankind. Agggggghhhhh.
I am sure another excuse could have been made to make him an acting ensign
if that was indeed necessary.
> -Jaci (major Wesley fan) Passey
gavroche (alias: John Newmark)
Robert A Seace
>> ras...@unhd.unh.edu (Robert A Seace) writes:
>>> do...@hplsla.HP.COM (not really Doug Passey) writes:
>
>>> I miss Wesley too. The person who called him Weasly better stay away from
>>>me. ^^^^^^
>
>> The "person" (singular) who called him Weasly? Hah! I think that
>>almost everyone on this group has called him Weasly as some time. Lighten
>>up, it's just a joke.
>
>I don't think that Will considered death threats as a JOKE!
>
Huh? How is calling him Weasly a death threat?! That is what we
were talking about (at least, that's what I was talking about).
>> .......... I think that it's better that he's gone from TNG. But,
>
>Oh yes. Since Wesley left the TNG has just gotten SO MUCH better.
>
Well, at least we don't have Boy Wonder saving the ship every
episode. Besides, I said that my whole article was just IMHO and if you
had a different opinion, then that's fine.
||=========================================================================||
|| Robert A. Seace || Sophomore at UNH || Email: ras...@unhd.unh.edu ||
||=========================================================================||
"Then what's happened to the missiles?" "They would appear to have turned into
a bowl of petunias and a very surprised-looking whale..." - THGTTG
Live long and prosper.
Gavroche
(Chuck Anderson) says:
>
>I don't think that Will considered death threats as a JOKE!
>
Actually, I would think many actors, actresses, authors, etc get death threats.
It is the cost of being famous. Luckily very few of them are serious.
If you are only referring to NET posts (such as the Alt. group formed called
Alt.Ensign.Wesley.Die.Die.Die) then you should realize Wheaton probably doesnt
read these boards, and even if he does, he probably realizes them for the jokes
they are.
>> .......... I think that it's better that he's gone from TNG. But,
>
>Oh yes. Since Wesley left the TNG has just gotten SO MUCH better.
>
So, you think the recent shows are so bad because Wheaton is gone? I know
you dont say this, but that is what you infer. (or is that imply?) I think
the recent episodes failures can be blamed on the writers, not on the presence
or non-presence of particular characters.
>
-Gavroche
********************************************************************
TEACHER: ARE YOU READY TO COME BACK IN MICHAEL? * NEWMARK@AUVM
MICHAEL: YES! ******************
TEACHER: WELL, HAVE YOU LEARNED THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CAN AND MAY?
MICHAEL: UHHH, GIVE ME A COUPLE MORE MINUTES.
---AVALON
********************************************************************
Jeff Sicherman
>
>it is funny. But understandable. When I was much younger (perhaps close to yo
>ur age, i have no idea how old you are) when Capt. Steubing of the Love Boat
>adopted "Vicki" as his daughter I looked forward to every episode. It may or
>May not be a coincidence but I have some recollection that her real name was
>Jill Wheaton (of course, I could also have a brain tumor making me insane and
>thus prone to completely wrong memories) Are these two related?
I think it was something like Jill WHALEN
Blows that theory out of the ether
yz...@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Gavroche <NEW...@auvm.auvm.edu> writes:
>
> it is funny. But understandable. When I was much younger (perhaps close to yo
> ur age, i have no idea how old you are) when Capt. Steubing of the Love Boat
> adopted "Vicki" as his daughter I looked forward to every episode. It may or
> May not be a coincidence but I have some recollection that her real name was
> Jill Wheaton (of course, I could also have a brain tumor making me insane and
> thus prone to completely wrong memories) Are these two related?
Wrong! It was Jill WHELAN. And no, we're not related, either...
John Whelan
Cornell Astro '91
> gavroche (alias: John Newmark)
Regina Foiles
>In article <1845...@hplsla.HP.COM> do...@hplsla.HP.COM (Doug Passey) writes:
>
>> I think they should bring him back. Unfortunately, Will Wheaton has left
>>to do some feature films and probably won't be coming back. You know why he
>>left?
While it is true that Wil Wheaton is doing some feature films, I think the main
reason he left was for a college education. I think he's now attending UCLA.
Anyone know for sure? Is he studying acting? I think he's a fine actor, it was
his character Wesley that always ticked me off.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regina Foiles
reg...@tivoli.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Lampe
This may be urban legend I'm not really sure or not but
when I was a young girl I can remember people telling me that she was
from Livermore, Ca.(where I grew up) and I can remember them saying
it proudly too.
My question is can anybody verify that she is from Livermore,
and can they tell me where the folks from TNG are from?
This is going to say it's by Dave Lampe but it's really by his daughter
(christine) who is too lazy to log him out and put herself in.
Thanks for any info.
chris
--
Dave Lampe
{ames | lll-tis | sun | pyramid}!pacbell!dplace!djl
(415) 455-1571 (H)
(415) 462-7000 (W)
David L Paktor
I think a fair summary of the major objections to Wesley goes something
like this:
(Dave Schaumann):
> he's too much the nice-boy wunderkind and too little anything else.
(Even Jaci acknowledges):
> He is a little too goody-goody from time to time,
(Robert A Seace):
> Wesley has saved the ship more times than anyone else.
(uncounted others):
> Another damn Wesley-saves-the-ship epoisode
Hey, folks! How many of you remember being sixteen, and watching any
of a *huge* number of "Kids are smarter, more moral, and quicker
than the big, dumb, lumbering, greedy, narrow-minded, evil adults,
and will come through and save the day, the world, or whatnot"
flicks, and thinking: "Yeah! That's right..."?
Apparently, the character of Wesley carries on that tradition, only,
now that (through the magic and inevitablity of being stuck in
time) most of us have *become* (Yakk! Fooey!) adults, we react
strongly against the notion. (Sort of like a reformed addict).
Seems Wil (one 'L', not two) Wheaton epitomizes the "nice kid" type
(anyone remember Robby Benson?), and the writers thought a new
generation of kids would go for the same old premise. (Only it
doesn't work, see, because *our* generation didn't grow up to be
evil adults, see, because we demonstrated against Wrongness when
we were late-teens, see, and the previous generation didn't, see.
We were the generation that was going to save the world, see..)
Of course, this doesn't explain why the new generation is even more
cynical than we were... Or, then again, maybe it does: After
all, how well did we do at world-saving? (But then again, some
of us are not through yet...)
Personally, I have mixed feelings about Wesley. I liked what the
Traveler said about him, and, I guess, to some extent, Wesley
reminds me of an idealized image of what I thought myself to
be at that age. Of course, I grew out of it (or, put another
way, time took its toll...), and now the fondness (nostalgia)
for that idealized kid-self battles with resentment that things
didn't turn out so neatly.
Nonetheless, I'm charmed to learn that (at least some) young girls
go for that sort of guy. Tell us, Jaci -- is it just that win-
some, whistful "aww-gee" smile, and humble charm that you find
so endearing, or are "smarts" a part of what attracts you, too?
Or is it something else that I've overlooked altogether?
> My dad won't take me [to see Toy Soldiers] because it's R rated.
> I'm going to ask my mom to take me instead.
Good luck.
I haven't seen "Toy Soldiers", so I can't say, but can anyone tell us,
has Wil Wheaton taken this role to step out of the "Nice Boy"
character, (thus attempting to avoid becomeing typecast), or is
he in danger of going the Robby Benson route?
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=== Mister Systems === | "It is a sobering thought to realize that,
David L Paktor | by the time Mozart was my age,
| he had been dead for five years...."
Pak...@cup.Portal.com | --- Tom Lehrer
|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A recent survey showed that 80% of Americans think Dan Quayle is
not qualified to be President. What is disturbing about this,
is that it implies that 20% think he is.
However, we can take some reassurance in the notion that these
are probably the same 20% that think Elvis is still alive...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael L. Kaufman
>Hey, folks! How many of you remember being sixteen, and watching any
> of a *huge* number of "Kids are smarter, more moral, and quicker
> than the big, dumb, lumbering, greedy, narrow-minded, evil adults,
> and will come through and save the day, the world, or whatnot"
> flicks, and thinking: "Yeah! That's right..."?
Well, I can only speak for myself and my friends, but when I was a kid, we
hated every single wunderkid on tv. We hated Robin, Will Robinson, all of
them. OK, we liked Tom, Huck and Becky on the Banana Splits, but we wished
nothing but harm to all the rest of them. I think the reason we like Batman
(for example) and disliked Robin, was that we could aspire to be Batman one
day, but Robin showed us just how miserable we were. (Dad: Why don't you go
out and catch the Riddler like that nice Robin instead of sitting around the
house all day.)
This doesn't explain our reaction to Wesley. Now that I am an adult (more or
less) I still admire the adults, and I still would like to send that
sanctimonious little SOB to .....But I digress.
Michael
Dave Schaumann
>
>I think a fair summary of the major objections to Wesley goes something
> like this:
>
>(Dave Schaumann):
>> he's too much the nice-boy wunderkind and too little anything else.
I'll add some facts (and opinions) to back this up. As a specific
example, I just re-watched the episode "Evolution", (the one where
Wesly creates the nanites). Some interesting possibilites were brought
out here, but never followed up on. Particularly the scene between
Guinan and Wesly where Guinan says "what kind of grade do you think
you'll get?" and Wesly replies "I always get an A" in a way that
suggested to me that he might have some mixed feelings about being a
wonderkind. Unfortunately, this was never followed up. And we also
have the example of Dr. Stubbs as a genius gone a bit off the deep
end as an example for Wesly to play off of, and perhaps a bit of
forshadowing of a path Wesly might take. Unfortunately, this too is
only barely hinted at. I also wish there was a scene in that episode
showing Picard calling Wesly on the carpet for being so careless with
the nanites. The way this episode stands, Wesly comes off as "the boy
genius who can do no wrong".
More generally, we never saw Wesly in a situation that called for him
to have any other emotions than "Gee, it's great to be on the
Enterprise" and "gosh, it's swell to be in space". He's never angry,
or terrified, or really shows any strong emotions.
Now that I think about it, this is really a failing of all the
characters on TNG to some extent. In TOS, one of the major themes was
that human emotions were *good*. I believe that this was in fact one
of the major roots in the conflict between Dr. McCoy and Mr. Spock.
IMAO, part of what makes ST2:TWOK so good is the emotions displayed by
Kahn and Kirk. They are right on target, and they make these
characters real, instead of just actors parroting lines. Of course,
the other side of the coin is ST5:TFF, where we have emotions that
ring dead false...
But in TNG, the importance of human emotions seems to have been
abandon to a large extent. Even if everyone gets along peachy keen (a
proposition I have grave doubts about to begin with), external
influences are bound to generate strong emotions. Consider "The Best
of Both Worlds 2". Here we have Captain Picard kidnapped and
Borg-ified, and yet when he is restored, the only insight we really
get into the emotions this generates is 2 lines "How much do you
remember? Everything.". I know J.L. is supposed to be a private man,
but come on! Let us in on his private life a little. I didn't have
access to r.a.s back in September, but I hope I wasn't the only one
suprised and disappointed to see him back in the captains chair so
quickly, and seemingly without question.
A micro-spoiler for "The Mind's Eye" to follow...
At the end of the episode, we see Geordi beginning to deal with what
has happened to him on an emotional level. I hope this is picked up
in next weeks episode, and is indicative of a trend toward portraying
the characters on a more emotional level.
Stephen Dennison
>In article <42...@cup.portal.com> Pak...@cup.portal.com (David L Paktor) writes:
>>Hey, folks! How many of you remember being sixteen, and watching any
>> of a *huge* number of "Kids are smarter, more moral, and quicker
>> than the big, dumb, lumbering, greedy, narrow-minded, evil adults,
>> and will come through and save the day, the world, or whatnot"
>> flicks, and thinking: "Yeah! That's right..."?
>
>Well, I can only speak for myself and my friends, but when I was a kid, we
>hated every single wunderkid on tv. We hated Robin, Will Robinson, all of
>them. OK, we liked Tom, Huck and Becky on the Banana Splits, but we wished
>nothing but harm to all the rest of them. I think the reason we like Batman
>(for example) and disliked Robin, was that we could aspire to be Batman one
>day, but Robin showed us just how miserable we were. (Dad: Why don't you go
>out and catch the Riddler like that nice Robin instead of sitting around the
>house all day.)
>
>This doesn't explain our reaction to Wesley. Now that I am an adult (more or
>less) I still admire the adults, and I still would like to send that
>sanctimonious little SOB to .....But I digress.
Hey, didn't DC comics even KILL-OFF Robin ? Sounds like the wave of the
future. But I *liked* Wesley, so THERE ! And I'm *still* not related to
Jacqi Passey either!
>
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>--
>Michael Kaufman | I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on
> kaufman | fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in
> @eecs.nwu.edu | the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be
> | lost in time - like tears in rain. Time to die. Roy Batty
"My life is a sine wave. Now, if I could just get the damned
amplitude down..." Stephen Dennison
Allen R. Sparks
his post dated 29 May 91 03:31:33 GMT that Wesley is disliked because
he has or shows no emotion. He expanded on that, pointing out that
all the characters are like that.
My own feeling is that Wesley just isn't "naughty" enough. It seemed
like there just wasn't any character. This isn't to say that Wil
Wheaton isn't (or wasn't? maybe he's lost it) capable of acting a real
character part, such as his role in _Stand By Me_. It seems like all
the characters on TNG have been very "stiff". Recently many of them
have started to let their hair down, all except Jean-Luc, and I think
that he manages to pull off his straight-lacedness without being
pompous. Riker is always pompous.
If Wesley had been less of a nice kid, and a bit more of a
trouble-maker, in other words a normal teen-ager (albeit a smart one),
then I would have been able to relate to him. I have similar thoughts
about Geordi. Though I don't think that Levar Burton is capable of
acting. What you see is what you get, as evidenced by his appearences
on all those PBS shows. Geordi LeForge and Levar Burton are
essentially the same person.
I always felt that TNG characters were too "nice", like they were too
afraid to step on each others toes. When you compare it to TOS, and
for example the cussedness of "Bones" McCoy, and the forthrightedness
of James T (who didn't care if your feelings were hurt, "We come in
peace shoot to kill"). I'm sure one could come up with
counter-examples on TNG (Worf, or even Riker) but essentially that's
how I feel about the show.
=== Al Sparks
FX...@ALASKA.BITNET
fx...@acad3.alaska.edu
Timothy W. Lynch
series-bashing (either series)?
kana...@neon.Stanford.EDU (Atsushi Kanamori) writes:
>In article <29MAY9...@acad3.alaska.edu> fx...@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>>My own feeling is that Wesley just isn't "naughty" enough. It seemed
>>like there just wasn't any character. This isn't to say that Wil
>>Wheaton isn't (or wasn't? maybe he's lost it) capable of acting a real
>>character part, such as his role in _Stand By Me_. It seems like all
>>the characters on TNG have been very "stiff".
>Precisely. The image that comes to my mind is "interchangable droids."
>While no doubt the tng.defenders can come up with valid counterexamples,
Can. Have in the past and have been ignored by you. That's why I'm not
bothering this time--if you haven't listened before, why would you now?
>I like Geordi better --- he's got a sarcastic edge though it's still
>way too watered down and G-rated.
Wait until you see "The Mind's Eye" this Saturday...
>>Though I don't think that Levar Burton is capable of
>>acting. What you see is what you get, as evidenced by his appearences
>>on all those PBS shows. Geordi LeForge and Levar Burton are
>>essentially the same person.
>I don't care what Burton is like in person. If the character comes
>off well, it comes off well.
This is true. If Geordi and LeVar are fairly similar in personality, all
that means is that LeVar has a lot of experience to draw on. I don't see that
it should affect the character.
>>I always felt that TNG characters were too "nice", like they were too
>>afraid to step on each others toes.
>Bingo. The show depends far too much on external sources of conflict. It's
>the regulars that most of us (at least I) have the most interest and stake
>in, and the lack of internal conflicts between the crew makes them boring
>beyond belief.
Sigh. Nope, not for me. I've got a few characters I am very tired of (Troi,
most of the time, and Riker fairly often as well), yes, but I find at least
three of the regulars on TNG more interesting than ANY TOS regular. This is,
of course, old news.
>The guest-villain-of-the-week approach may provide some
>nice immediate excitement, but in the long run, isn't nearly as interesting
>as the on-going philosophical conflicts of the Classic Trek crew.
1) The solution to the "guest villain of the week" problem is to serialize,
as _both_ of us have said in the past. If we get some recurring situations,
problems, and villains, then that in itself will make for a very interesting
long-term situation. Again, I'll refer you to "The Mind's Eye" once you've
seen it.
2) Oh, please. As I've said often enough in the past, there are some of us
out here who think the "on-going philosophical conflicts of the Classic Trek
crew" are ones that can be neatly summarized on a postage stamp, and are
about as interesting.
>I don't think it's any accident that one of the most popular episodes of
>all time (YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE) was one that gave the regular crew only a
>few seconds of air-time,
I could say precisely the same thing about "Mirror, Mirror". YE worked as
well as it did for many reasons--characterization by contrast was one of them,
but the fact that it was just so DIFFERENT in every way was another. That
doesn't mean there's something wrong with TNG, it just means that when you've
grown used to something, to suddenly have all of it shattered around you is
certainly an attention-grabber.
>or that TNG's single most emotional moment for
>me involved not the departure of a regular but the death of guest character
>who I'd only seen once before (Worf's fiancee on Reunion --- I can't spell
>her name offhand...)
K'Ehleyr's death is way up on the list, yes, but there are several other
emotional moments which got to me which involve the regulars: Worf's actual
discommendation in "Sins of the Father", Picard's breakdown in "Family",
Data's salvation in "The Measure of a Man" and the last few minutes of "The
Most Toys", Picard's breakdown in "Sarek"...I could go on.
There. I've put in my piece on the subject for the next several weeks. Have
as much fun as you like with it.
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"Between the pen and the paperwork, I know there's passion in the language.
Between the muscle and the brainwork, there must be feeling in the pipeline..."
--Suzanne Vega, "Big Space"
Atsushi Kanamori
>Why is it that we can't go by even a single MONTH without having a round of
>series-bashing (either series)?
Because newcomers keep coming in and bring up comparisons. I do enjoy
debating this topic when the opponent is someone I haven't sparred
with before.
[So why are you and I dancing around this fire again? Oh well, look at it
this way, it's only two more days before I see MIND'S EYE and if it's
as good as I've been hearing, that'll take my mind off this topic
for a few days.]
>kana...@neon.Stanford.EDU (Atsushi Kanamori) writes:
>>In article <29MAY9...@acad3.alaska.edu> fx...@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>
>>>My own feeling is that Wesley just isn't "naughty" enough. It seemed
>>>like there just wasn't any character. This isn't to say that Wil
>>>Wheaton isn't (or wasn't? maybe he's lost it) capable of acting a real
>>>character part, such as his role in _Stand By Me_. It seems like all
>>>the characters on TNG have been very "stiff".
>
>>Precisely. The image that comes to my mind is "interchangable droids."
>>While no doubt the tng.defenders can come up with valid counterexamples,
>
>Can. Have in the past and have been ignored by you. That's why I'm not
>bothering this time--if you haven't listened before, why would you now?
No reason at all. As we both agreed on before, we have different thresholds
of "the number of counterexamples required to make the characters interesting."
>
>>I like Geordi better --- he's got a sarcastic edge though it's still
>>way too watered down and G-rated.
>
>Wait until you see "The Mind's Eye" this Saturday...
>
>>>Though I don't think that Levar Burton is capable of
>>>acting. What you see is what you get, as evidenced by his appearences
>>>on all those PBS shows. Geordi LeForge and Levar Burton are
>>>essentially the same person.
>
>>I don't care what Burton is like in person. If the character comes
>>off well, it comes off well.
>
>This is true. If Geordi and LeVar are fairly similar in personality, all
>that means is that LeVar has a lot of experience to draw on. I don't see that
>it should affect the character.
Agreed on these counts.
>>>I always felt that TNG characters were too "nice", like they were too
>>>afraid to step on each others toes.
>
>>Bingo. The show depends far too much on external sources of conflict. It's
>>the regulars that most of us (at least I) have the most interest and stake
>>in, and the lack of internal conflicts between the crew makes them boring
>>beyond belief.
>
>Sigh. Nope, not for me. I've got a few characters I am very tired of (Troi,
>most of the time, and Riker fairly often as well), yes, but I find at least
>three of the regulars on TNG more interesting than ANY TOS regular. This is,
>of course, old news.
Is it just a coincidence that you refer to "TOS regular" in the singular?
It ain't just the characters taken in isolation that make the TOS characters
enjoyable for me. It's the interaction BETWEEN them. It's a matter of
the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
>
>>The guest-villain-of-the-week approach may provide some
>>nice immediate excitement, but in the long run, isn't nearly as interesting
>>as the on-going philosophical conflicts of the Classic Trek crew.
>
>1) The solution to the "guest villain of the week" problem is to serialize,
>as _both_ of us have said in the past. If we get some recurring situations,
>problems, and villains, then that in itself will make for a very interesting
>long-term situation. Again, I'll refer you to "The Mind's Eye" once you've
>seen it.
This is true. Given a reasonably long arc, the "guests" become temporary
regulars. Even so, I'd prefer if the regulars (which is who see the most of)
were the most dynamic on the show.
>
>2) Oh, please. As I've said often enough in the past, there are some of us
>out here who think the "on-going philosophical conflicts of the Classic Trek
>crew" are ones that can be neatly summarized on a postage stamp, and are
>about as interesting.
Now this I disagree with. First, the on-going philosophical conflicts
may be tied to the central PERSONALITIES behind the debates but the
personalities are neither of the postage stamp complexity nor are do
make the conflicts stemming from them of the postage stamp complexity.
Spock is no more a paragon of emotionlessness than Data is. He exhibits
curiosity. He is a friend to Captain Kirk (hardly a paragon of logic.)
He's torn between the need to satisfy his father and his commitment to
Starfleet (letting parents rule your adult life isn't logical.)
Nor is McCoy is a simple model of compassion as many like to paint him.
He's gruff, obstinate, and downright callous at times (ex: ALL OUR YESTERDAYS)
These guys aren't one-word labels. Neither are the TNG characters, to be fair,
but I don't see the kind of depth and complexity in them that I see in these
TOS characters. To what little extent they differ, they feel very simply
characterized to me. Picard is the Leader, Father-figure, and naturally,
he speaks with the distinguished British accent and is Proper and Wise
in all ways. Data is the child --- looks like it, sounds like it and
acts like it. Worf is the prototypical warrier man --- aggressive
and prone to fight rather than surrender. No surprises or anything new here.
Getting back to the topic of the philosophical debates themselves, just
because they stem from the same personalities each time doesn't make
every debate the same. The themes of pragmatic logic vs. human compassion
can be, and is, applied to a WIDE range of issues and situations, and that's
how it was USED on the show. It's not just the same argument over and over
again.
>>I don't think it's any accident that one of the most popular episodes of
>>all time (YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE) was one that gave the regular crew only a
>>few seconds of air-time,
>
>I could say precisely the same thing about "Mirror, Mirror".
Partly true, but MIRROR MIRROR gave Kirk, McCoy, Uhura and Scotty
plenty of screen-time which was part of my point there.
>YE worked as
>well as it did for many reasons--characterization by contrast was one of them,
>but the fact that it was just so DIFFERENT in every way was another. That
>doesn't mean there's something wrong with TNG, it just means that when you've
>grown used to something, to suddenly have all of it shattered around you is
>certainly an attention-grabber.
Being a standout *does* help, but when the standout is one that goes
*against* a fundamental nature of the show (i.e. its pacifism) and that
makes it so popular, it does make one wonder if it's a fluke rather
than a sterling example of TNG-ness.
>
>>or that TNG's single most emotional moment for
>>me involved not the departure of a regular but the death of guest character
>>who I'd only seen once before (Worf's fiancee on Reunion --- I can't spell
>>her name offhand...)
>
>K'Ehleyr's death is way up on the list, yes, but there are several other
>emotional moments which got to me which involve the regulars: Worf's actual
>discommendation in "Sins of the Father",
This one didn't hit me quite so hard: partly because it wasn't quite so
UNEXPECTED, and second because the idea of being tied *that* closely
to a culture (when one almost never spent any time living in that
culture) feels like dumb idea to me anyway.
>Picard's breakdown in "Family",
Aye, *this* was good. Probably takes second place for me.
>Data's salvation in "The Measure of a Man"
This one didn't come off too well for me, but most likely because the
"tragic" scenes (almost) always come off better for me than "happy" scenes.
>and the last few minutes of "The
>Most Toys",
Again, didn't work for me (though reading the spoilers before seeing
the episode just might have affected the readings...)
>Picard's breakdown in "Sarek"...
I felt for Sarek here, not Picard, since it was largely Sarek's
feelings that were involved here. So it doesn't really involve a TNG
regular.
>
>There. I've put in my piece on the subject for the next several weeks. Have
>as much fun as you like with it.
Does that mean I get the last word? (:-)
. . . .
: : : :. : : :.. .: : . : .: . ..
::::::::::.: :::::::.::::::?::::.:::
------------ ---------------------------------------------------------
TNG Lifelines: From "Yesterday's Enterprise" To "The Host" - "Sometimes,
I wish you weren't so... empathic." -- Dr. Crusher
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1991May31....@nntp-server.caltech.edu> tly...@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>And you're right--the TNG characters, rather than being l-t-l the way the TOS
>>characters were (and I'm not saying there's anything WRONG with that; it's
>>just not usually my cup of tea), are very true-to-life, at least for me.
>>That makes it more important that the stories be equally plausible. (In TOS,
>>for example, nobody really thinks twice about seeing a seven-foot lizard that
>>speaks English, because the characters in a way are equally implausible. I
>>doubt you could get away with inventing a similar race in TNG.)
>You left out the worst part, Tim: a seven foot lizard who looked just
>like a human wearing a rubber lizard suit (ahh, the old days of low
>budgets :-))
Yes, well... My fiancee's annoyed enough that once again the reptiles are the
bad guys. :-)
>The races they do invent in TNG, though, are all the same. All are
>humanoid with bumpy heads and/or deformed hands. And there is very
>rarely any indication that they speak anything but English. At least
>TOS occasionally tried to make an alien look alien (in a Weekly World
>News sort of way), and gave some indication that they weren't actually
>speaking English. TNG aliens are equally implausible as the Gorn; the
>makeup is just better.
From a strict scientific standpoint, they're equally implausible, true, but
I would tend to claim they're far more plausible to your average viewer. The
fact that they look a heckuva lot more real, rather than bad makeup/costuming
jobs, does help a lot, though. Some of the TOS aliens were alien and still
realistic to a fault--I'd give anything to see a decently-made Horta. Or a
Hamalki...
Of course, virtually none of this has anything to do with the points I tried
to make in my previous post, but whatever. :-)
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
kana...@neon.Stanford.EDU (Atsushi Kanamori) writes:
>In article <1991May30.1...@nntp-server.caltech.edu> tly...@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>Sigh. Nope, not for me. I've got a few characters I am very tired of (Troi,
>>most of the time, and Riker fairly often as well), yes, but I find at least
>>three of the regulars on TNG more interesting than ANY TOS regular. This is,
>>of course, old news.
>Is it just a coincidence that you refer to "TOS regular" in the singular?
Yep, it is. I could just as easily add "or any grouping thereof" without
changing my assertion. (In both cases, however, I should add an "on the
average"--even my favorite TNG characters have their share of bad scenes, and
even my least favorite TOS characters have some gems.)
As I said, just a quick clarification. Bye now...
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
gwan...@milton.u.washington.edu (Just another theatre geek.....) writes:
>In article <1991May30....@neon.Stanford.EDU> kana...@neon.Stanford.EDU (Atsushi Kanamori) writes:
>>These guys aren't one-word labels. Neither are the TNG characters, to be
>>fair, but I don't see the kind of depth and complexity in them that I see in
>>these TOS characters. To what little extent they differ, they feel very
>>simply characterized to me. Picard is the Leader, Father-figure, and
>>naturally, he speaks with the distinguished British accent and is Proper and
>>Wise in all ways. Data is the child --- looks like it, sounds like it and
>>acts like it. Worf is the prototypical warrier man --- aggressive
>>and prone to fight rather than surrender. No surprises or anything new here.
> Hmmmm.....seems to me you're missing some of the nuances here.
>For example, you're missing the intellectual (as opposed to personal/intimate)
>passion of Picard; you also miss his personal isolation and coolness that
>is part of his character. This contrast comes off most clearly in ALLEGIANCE
>(the only worthwhile part of the episode, IMO), where Picard's duplicate
>engages in mirror image behavior of Picard's.
Agreed. He's also missed the flip side of that coolness--the passionate
fervor surrounding some of the issues he does care for, such as the Prime
Directive ("Who Watches the Watchers", most obviously), and the McCarthyist
tactics used in "The Drumhead". Calling Picard the Leader is at least as
incomplete a characterization as calling Kirk the Lech. :-)
Now for the interesting part...
> The problem here is not that the characters are simply drawn---it is
>that they are underplayed as compared to the TOS characters. Whereas the
>Big Three of TOS often went to and over the top in their characterizations,
And often IMHO fell into the yawning precipice beneath...:-)
>the TNG crew stops well short. That may be fine for most shows, but I
>think the problem here is that the Trek format is inherently larger than
>life, with problems, stories and arenas to match. The TNG characters,
>as drawn, don't quite match the pallette....
Hmm. In a few cases, you may be right, but I think much of the TNG stories
haven't been all that much larger-than-life--certainly, for example, "The
Measure of a Man" and "The Drumhead" didn't strike me as such. Trek is
something which inherently lends itself to being larger-than-life, certainly;
but I don't think I'd agree that it always is such.
And you're right--the TNG characters, rather than being l-t-l the way the TOS
characters were (and I'm not saying there's anything WRONG with that; it's just
not usually my cup of tea), are very true-to-life, at least for me. That makes
it more important that the stories be equally plausible. (In TOS, for example,
nobody really thinks twice about seeing a seven-foot lizard that speaks
English, because the characters in a way are equally implausible. I doubt you
could get away with inventing a similar race in TNG.)
Tim Lynch
Paul Schinder
>
>And you're right--the TNG characters, rather than being l-t-l the way the TOS
>characters were (and I'm not saying there's anything WRONG with that; it's just
>not usually my cup of tea), are very true-to-life, at least for me. That makes
>it more important that the stories be equally plausible. (In TOS, for example,
>nobody really thinks twice about seeing a seven-foot lizard that speaks
>English, because the characters in a way are equally implausible. I doubt you
>could get away with inventing a similar race in TNG.)
You left out the worst part, Tim: a seven foot lizard who looked just
like a human wearing a rubber lizard suit (ahh, the old days of low
budgets :-))
The races they do invent in TNG, though, are all the same. All are
humanoid with bumpy heads and/or deformed hands. And there is very
rarely any indication that they speak anything but English. At least
TOS occasionally tried to make an alien look alien (in a Weekly World
News sort of way), and gave some indication that they weren't actually
speaking English. TNG aliens are equally implausible as the Gorn; the
makeup is just better.
>
>Tim Lynch
--
Paul J. Schinder
Department of Astronomy, Cornell University
schi...@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu
Atsushi Kanamori
>his post dated 29 May 91 03:31:33 GMT that Wesley is disliked because
>he has or shows no emotion. He expanded on that, pointing out that
>all the characters are like that.
>
>My own feeling is that Wesley just isn't "naughty" enough. It seemed
>like there just wasn't any character. This isn't to say that Wil
>Wheaton isn't (or wasn't? maybe he's lost it) capable of acting a real
>character part, such as his role in _Stand By Me_. It seems like all
>the characters on TNG have been very "stiff".
Precisely. The image that comes to my mind is "interchangable droids."
While no doubt the tng.defenders can come up with valid counterexamples,
I believe the spirit, if not the exact letter, of the characterization
fits.
>Recently many of them
>have started to let their hair down, all except Jean-Luc, and I think
>that he manages to pull off his straight-lacedness without being
>pompous.
True. I have no problem with the fact that Picard is a square. It's
when *everyone* is a square that it starts to bother me.
>If Wesley had been less of a nice kid, and a bit more of a
>trouble-maker, in other words a normal teen-ager (albeit a smart one),
>then I would have been able to relate to him.
But that would make him too much like sitcom character and I HATE
sitcoms...
>I have similar thoughts about Geordi.
I like Geordi better --- he's got a sarcastic edge though it's still
way too watered down and G-rated.
>Though I don't think that Levar Burton is capable of
>acting. What you see is what you get, as evidenced by his appearences
>on all those PBS shows. Geordi LeForge and Levar Burton are
>essentially the same person.
I don't care what Burton is like in person. If the character comes
off well, it comes off well.
>I always felt that TNG characters were too "nice", like they were too
>afraid to step on each others toes.
Bingo. The show depends far too much on external sources of conflict. It's
the regulars that most of us (at least I) have the most interest and stake
in, and the lack of internal conflicts between the crew makes them boring
beyond belief. The guest-villain-of-the-week approach may provide some
nice immediate excitement, but in the long run, isn't nearly as interesting
as the on-going philosophical conflicts of the Classic Trek crew.
I don't think it's any accident that one of the most popular episodes of
all time (YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE) was one that gave the regular crew only a
few seconds of air-time, or that TNG's single most emotional moment for
me involved not the departure of a regular but the death of guest character
who I'd only seen once before (Worf's fiancee on Reunion --- I can't spell
her name offhand...)
>When you compare it to TOS, and
>for example the cussedness of "Bones" McCoy, and the forthrightedness
>of James T (who didn't care if your feelings were hurt, "We come in
>peace shoot to kill"). I'm sure one could come up with
>counter-examples on TNG (Worf, or even Riker) but essentially that's
>how I feel about the show.
I don't consider Worf a counter-example. He may be "negative" but there's no
other crewmember to act as a foil against that negative. For the
most part, his "Kill! Kill! Kill!" attitude whistles into the wind
since no one else has the gumption to argue with him. Picard just says
"Down, Worf" and Worf goes down.
Just another theatre geek.....
>In article <1991May30.1...@nntp-server.caltech.edu> tly...@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>>>I always felt that TNG characters were too "nice", like they were too
>>>>afraid to step on each others toes.
>>>Bingo. The show depends far too much on external sources of conflict. It's
>>>the regulars that most of us (at least I) have the most interest and stake
>>>in, and the lack of internal conflicts between the crew makes them boring
>>>beyond belief.
Eh. Conflict is conflict is conflict. Doesn't matter if it's
internally generated or if it's externally generated. What makes drama is
that a conflict exists.
Folks have an awfully peculiar idea that characterization (not
drama) needs to have conflict with other characters. Taint so. Go back to
the better ensemble shows like NORTHERN EXPOSURE, ST. ELSEWHERE, etc., I
challenge folks to find inherent character conflicts.
>Spock is no more a paragon of emotionlessness than Data is. He exhibits
>curiosity. He is a friend to Captain Kirk (hardly a paragon of logic.)
>He's torn between the need to satisfy his father and his commitment to
>Starfleet (letting parents rule your adult life isn't logical.)
Aha! My point exactly! The power of Spock is NOT in his
conflict with Dr. McCoy, but within himself!
>These guys aren't one-word labels. Neither are the TNG characters, to be fair,
>but I don't see the kind of depth and complexity in them that I see in these
>TOS characters. To what little extent they differ, they feel very simply
>characterized to me. Picard is the Leader, Father-figure, and naturally,
>he speaks with the distinguished British accent and is Proper and Wise
>in all ways. Data is the child --- looks like it, sounds like it and
>acts like it. Worf is the prototypical warrier man --- aggressive
>and prone to fight rather than surrender. No surprises or anything new here.
Hmmmm.....seems to me you're missing some of the nuances here.
For example, you're missing the intellectual (as opposed to personal/intimate)
passion of Picard; you also miss his personal isolation and coolness that
is part of his character. This contrast comes off most clearly in ALLEGIANCE
(the only worthwhile part of the episode, IMO), where Picard's duplicate
engages in mirror image behavior of Picard's. Similarly, Worf IS the
prototypical warrior---but who struggles to apply high principal to a messy,
not so high "real" world.
The problem here is not that the characters are simply drawn---it is
that they are underplayed as compared to the TOS characters. Whereas the
Big Three of TOS often went to and over the top in their characterizations,
the TNG crew stops well short. That may be fine for most shows, but I
think the problem here is that the Trek format is inherently larger than
life, with problems, stories and arenas to match. The TNG characters,
as drawn, don't quite match the pallette....
>>K'Ehleyr's death is way up on the list, yes, but there are several other
>>emotional moments which got to me which involve the regulars: Worf's actual
>>discommendation in "Sins of the Father",
>This one didn't hit me quite so hard: partly because it wasn't quite so
>UNEXPECTED, and second because the idea of being tied *that* closely
>to a culture (when one almost never spent any time living in that
>culture) feels like dumb idea to me anyway.
Dumb, but very common place. I remember the ersatz Red Guards
running around the Bay Area in the early 70s......
>>There. I've put in my piece on the subject for the next several weeks. Have
>>as much fun as you like with it.
>Does that mean I get the last word? (:-)
Heck, no!
--
-----
Roger Tang, gwan...@milton.u.washington.edu
Middle-class weenie, art nerd and all-around evil nasty spermchucker
Mark E. Bailey
>... (In TOS, for example,
>nobody really thinks twice about seeing a seven-foot lizard that speaks
>English, because the characters in a way are equally implausible. I doubt you
>could get away with inventing a similar race in TNG.)
>
>Tim Lynch
said something about equipping them with translators so they could communicate?
Agreed, English seems an unlikely native toungue for a seven foot lizard :-)
--
Mark Bailey KD4D
me...@eng.umd.edu (preferred) me...@tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov (alternate)
Disclaimer: I didn't really say this.
sl...@cc.usu.edu
from: Lorna in Logan
re: Wesly/Wil Wheaton
********************************
In article <7...@tivoli.UUCP>, reg...@tivoli.UUCP (Regina Foiles) writes:
> In article <1991May20.1...@unhd.unh.edu> ras...@unhd.unh.edu (Robert A Seace) writes:
>>In article <1845...@hplsla.HP.COM> do...@hplsla.HP.COM (Doug Passey) writes:
>>
>>> I think they should bring him back. Unfortunately, Will Wheaton has left
>>>to do some feature films and probably won't be coming back. You know why he
>>>left?
>
> While it is true that Wil Wheaton is doing some feature films, I think the main
> reason he left was for a college education. I think he's now attending UCLA.
> Anyone know for sure? Is he studying acting? I think he's a fine actor, it was
> his character Wesley that always ticked me off.
>
> ------------------------------
I was never a big wes fan, but he did improve over the course of the four
seasons (okay, three and a half). I also think that much of the blame has to
go to the writers--when Whago to the writers--when Wha
when Wheaton was given something good to do, he did a terrific job.
BTw, if WW is on the net, all this Wesley-bashing is a very good way to keep
him from speaking up. We *want* him to speak up, don't we? Think of all the
dirt *he* could dish!
-------------------------------------------------
>
> Regina Foiles
> reg...@tivoli.com
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorna--with apologies for my screwed-up terminal
Mike Krause
Doug Passey
did. I'm his daughter. My dad would be very embarrassed if anyone thought he
liked Star Trek, even though he does.
My dad says there aren't many females on the computer net. I noticed that too.
It's nice to see another female in net-land.
I hope they bring back Wesley. I miss him too. If they don't bring him back
permantaly, I hope they have a couple guest appearances. He was cute. Especally
when his hair got messed up. And his eyes. He had nice eyes. And he was tall,
too.....
Sorry about that. I'm sure you don't need me to list all the wonderful things
about Wesley. They are, of course, quite obvious. Like how nice his voice was--
oops, there I go again!
Jaci Passey
Doug Passey
<<and send it off on a one way trip to Alpha Centuri?
<By the sounds of it, Jaci would just love that.
--
You bet I would!
Jaci (really big, huge, #1 Wesley fan) Passey
Doug Passey
> go for that sort of guy. Tell us, Jaci -- is it just that win-
> some, whistful "aww-gee" smile, and humble charm that you find
> so endearing, or are "smarts" a part of what attracts you, too?
> Or is it something else that I've overlooked altogether?
I guess it's a combination. I think he's cute, but I also admire his
intelligence. I don't think I would get a crush on someone just because of
their looks, although that would be a part of it.
Also, I agree it would be more interesting if Wesley got mad and cussed at
Captain Picard. He is a little wimpy. But, then again, nobody's perfect.
Jaci Passey
Doug Passey
another one. I agree. They should send my sister off in a shuttle craft with
Weasley Flusher. :-) :-) :-).
Jamie Passey
David L Paktor
fx...@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R. Sparks) writes:
> Recently many of them
> have started to let their hair down, all except Jean-Luc
No, I won't say it -- I won't, I won't, I won-mmmffff-ggg-hhnhnghnmmfgghghggg
Whew!
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David L Paktor | "Well, I'll be dipped in ---
| NO! NO! Not that!!!!!!!!!"
Pak...@cup.Portal.com | -- Fat Freddy
|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. Smiley Face
>>... (In TOS, for example,
>>nobody really thinks twice about seeing a seven-foot lizard that speaks
>>English, because the characters in a way are equally implausible. I doubt you
>>could get away with inventing a similar race in TNG.)
>>Tim Lynch
>In Arena, wasn't it true that the beings setting up the conflict with the GORN
>said something about equipping them with translators so they could communicate?
>Agreed, English seems an unlikely native toungue for a seven foot lizard :-)
Yes, they were equiped with translators. And if I remember correctly, you even
hear the native tounge, which sounds much like someone clearing their throat
and trying not to belch.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Josh Laff: e-mail to:
jal4...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu or # #
smi...@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu or _ _
josh...@gnu.ai.mit.edu |#\_____/#|
Have a nice day! \#######/
sl...@cc.usu.edu
from: Lorna in Logan
re: Shuttlecrafts
************************
Well, if Jaci gets to go off with Wes, I *demand* to be marooned with Picard!
(BTW, everyobody got their VCRs set to get I, Claudius, if you haven't got it
already?)
Lorna
Michael L. Kaufman
>(BTW, everyobody got their VCRs set to get I, Claudius, if you haven't got it
>already?)
For the people who are planning on taping this that don't want to have to
remember every week for three months:
Many libraries that have a video collection have the entire series on tape.
For an envestment of around $13 (the local libraries charge $1 per tape) plus
around $4 for a second VCR, you can get the entire series on tape in one day.
I did this. It was great getting it all, but I did have to make 5 trips to the
library as they would only let me take three tapes at a time.
ta...@isuvax.iastate.edu
Vicki Holzhauer
>In article <1991Jun5.0...@cc.usu.edu> sl...@cc.usu.edu writes:
>>(BTW, everyobody got their VCRs set to get I, Claudius, if you haven't got it
>>already?)
>
>For an envestment of around $13 (the local libraries charge $1 per tape) plus
>around $4 for a second VCR, you can get the entire series on tape in one day.
REALLY! I went looking for this at several video stores in Boulder
and was told that it had never been released on videotape! I hadn't
thought of trying the library but would really like to see it. I'll
be on vacation for part of the time that it's showing, so I'd probably
miss a few critical episodes.
So the Video Station was wrong, eh? I thought they had *everything*!
--
Vicki Holzhauer, NCAR/Research Aviation Facility
Internet: vi...@ncar.ucar.edu
"I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said
I didn't know." --Mark Twain
the Rev. Mom
>
>Many libraries that have a video collection have the entire series on tape.
Um, ducking under the morality of unauthorized copying of
copyrighted material for the second, my local library's copy was
macrovisioned.
Besides, taping off the air gives you a MUCH better quality
than copying, you get those extra tidbits like the "Behind the
Scenes" clip they showed last night, and your conscience stays
clean. How tough can it be to catch this if you want it?--most PBS
stations repeat MASTERPIECE THEATRE at least once during the
week.
Also, you *can* purchase the puppies; PBS is offering them, and
at a much lower price than the earlier set (which only had one
episode per tape).
--Kathy Li aka the Rev. Mom
--
ka...@fps.com |
..ucsd.edu!celit!kathy | "It was a di*vine* role!"
DO NOT USE hanff!!! | --John Hurt re: Caligula in I, CLAUDIUS
Standard disclaimer | BACKSTAGE AT MASTERPIECE THEATRE
Vidiot
<> vi...@stout.atd.ucar.edu (Vicki Holzhauer) writes:
<>
<>Many libraries that have a video collection have the entire series on tape.
<>For an investment of around $13 (the local libraries charge $1 per tape) plus
<>around $4 for a second VCR, you can get the entire series on tape in one day.
<
<Um, ducking under the morality of unauthorized copying of
<copyrighted material for the second, my local library's copy was
<macrovisioned.
<
<Besides, taping off the air gives you a MUCH better quality
<than copying, you get those extra tidbits like the "Behind the
<Scenes" clip they showed last night, and your conscience stays
<clean. How tough can it be to catch this if you want it?--most PBS
<stations repeat MASTERPIECE THEATRE at least once during the
<week.
hile it may be true that you can get a better quality taping off the air,
at least I do, the tapes apparently have pieces restored that were removed
for showing over the air. The price for purchase os too expensive.
Macrovision, what about Macrovision :-)
--
harvard\ att!nicmad\ spool.cs.wisc.edu!astroatc!vidiot!brown
Vidiot ucbvax!uwvax..........!astroatc!vidiot!brown
rutgers/ decvax!nicmad/ INTERNET:vidiot!brown%astr...@spool.cs.wisc.edu