FEDERATION MARINES (How canonical are they?)
Love Robin Miller
>
>While nobody is quite up to flaming one another (yet), it does seem there
>are two camps: those who swear that the Federation Marines are canonical and
>will cite DS9 episodes and the sixth STAR TREK feature to back them up, and
>then those who swear these citations are untrue and the whole notion is
>frivolous.
>
dont feel that way! point of fac tis.. the situation is ambiguious (sp?)....
the *possibility* of starfleet marines existing *is* canonical, due to the very
references u sited....
the *term* "starfleet marine" is what is not specifically stated, yet.....
btw.. yes, i knw its not canonical, but a few years ago, i bought some
startrek-inspired pins from a source in the starlog mags... and they have the
following starfleet branches with colors....(yes, starfleet)
+ military (olive)
+ security (maroon)
+ marines (navy)
+ medical (white)
+ headquarters (grey blue)
+ intelligence (black)
+ material (light green)
+ colonial operations (powder blue)
+ personnel (orangish red)
+ communications (blue-white)
+ merchant marines (yellow(puke)-green)
+ engineering (yellow)
my impression is that these are supposed to be TFS era emblems(maroon jackets),
as the motif is the command division star in front of "space-grid-circle"
reminecent of the ufp stars-on-blue
fan originated i'm fairly sure... but interesting none the less....
lr
(i already said the pins were not canon, so dont bother that line of reply!!)
Love Robin,
Green Orion Woman (GOW) Extrodinaire
Virtual Djinni, Sex Muse
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scat.spradlin
some unit ANALOGOUS to the Marines. I never quite swallowed the idea of
redshirts beaming down en masse--without heavy weapons, vehicles,
explosives, body armor, etc...--and kicking Klingon ass in TOS.
While most Fleet personnel do get some instruction in combat, and Security
personnel especially recive such training, Starfleet personnel seem
woefully ill-equipped for real combat situations on the ground.
While it's not 'officially' acepted as canon, there does seem to be a need
for them, and the ST:VI references to Special Forces and non-Navy ranks
certainly makes it plausible. One could argue that Trek scripts never
really showed them because so mch of the action took place aboard
starships, rather than foxholes.
Just a thought.
Scott
Love Robin Miller <love...@aol.comShields> wrote in article
<19990617183939...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
Hansel F Cook
ranks, not army ones. I also seem to recall that they mentioned they were
part of "Starfleet Security", though I'd have to watch the episode again
to be sure. We have never seen a Starfleet officer with a non-naval rank
in all of current Trek - the only reference is Col. West in Star Trek 6,
which was a good 70+ years before the current date and wasn't even
included in the final cut of the film. Also, if O'Brien was part of some
sort of ground unit before transferring to a Starship that is further
evidence that the soldiers we have seen are not a seperate branch but part
of regular Starfleet.
Thus, while Starfleet does have ground forces that resemble marines they
are not an indepedendent group, and do not have a seperate rank structure.
Fanboys who get all excited about Starfleet Marines and a series based on
their adventures should watch "Space: Above abd Beyond" or "Aliens"
instead.
Hans
Love Robin Miller (love...@aol.comShields) wrote:
: >I'm beginning to regret starting this thread.
Justin T. Broderick
[...]
>
> Starfleet Security is *not* for fighting wars or other ground-based
> battles. It is for providing security officers on board Starfleet
> ships and bases. You wouldn't take a night watchman from some building
> and send him to the front lines, would you?
>
The idea of a large Marine Corps as sort of a second, more specialized
Army is pretty much (a) unique to the U.S., and (b) post-WW2. The Royal
Marines are a small, elite commando-type force, as are most other
nations' marines or "naval infantry."
Marines orignated as shipboard troops. Their duties were:
Guarding parts of the vessel
Enforcing discipline
Forming the backbone of landing forces
Small arms men in action
Augmenting the crew in action or "all hands" evolutions
Forming larger infantry units (combined with other ships' marines) if
needed
Most large-scale ground action, even amphibious, were handled by the
army.
By this definition of "Marines," Starfleet's Security branch seems to
fit the bill. We don't know if there's a Federation Army, though. It
seems like there would have to be a larger, surface-warfare organization
of some type. Maybe they are marines, maybe not.
Or perhaps Federation doctrine didn't include large-scale battling for
the surface of a planet? Maybe their space superiority made them think
they could encircle a planet with starships and blast anything that
moves? It would seem that the Dominion war would change this
attitude...
Just some speculation...
--JTB
Admiral Korel
>some unit ANALOGOUS to the Marines. I never quite swallowed the idea of
>redshirts beaming down en masse--without heavy weapons, vehicles,
>explosives, body armor, etc...--and kicking Klingon ass in TOS.
> While most Fleet personnel do get some instruction in combat, and Security
>personnel especially recive such training, Starfleet personnel seem
>woefully ill-equipped for real combat situations on the ground.
> While it's not 'officially' acepted as canon, there does seem to be a need
>for them, and the ST:VI references to Special Forces and non-Navy ranks
>certainly makes it plausible. One could argue that Trek scripts never
>really showed them because so mch of the action took place aboard
>starships, rather than foxholes.
>
> Just a thought.
I agree. Remember in "Tears of the Prophets" when they knock out the weapons
platforms and then Martok says "We will begin transporting ground troops to
both planets immediately". Then Weyoun says later "Federation troops have
landed on Cardassian soil". So we can gather that at least some of the
"ground troops" were Federation, and it's likely that they were Marines of
some kind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morgan McEvoy, morg...@esatclear.ie
"It's like the laws of physics just went out the window."
"And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient!"
Admiral Korel
>> sort of ground unit before transferring to a Starship that is further
>> evidence that the soldiers we have seen are not a seperate branch but
part
>> of regular Starfleet.
>
>transferred to the naval service (perhaps he resigned after Setlik III
>and eventually re-enlisted, this time in Starfleet navy), or he could
>have been the equivalent of a Navy SEAL. We have SEALs and Marines
>both, without any trouble.
He was the Tactical Officer of the Rutledge, and then transferred to
engineering after Setlik.
JTKirk
wrote:
>Brian Barjenbruch wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> Starfleet Security is *not* for fighting wars or other ground-based
>> battles. It is for providing security officers on board Starfleet
>> ships and bases. You wouldn't take a night watchman from some building
>> and send him to the front lines, would you?
>>
>
>The idea of a large Marine Corps as sort of a second, more specialized
>Army is pretty much (a) unique to the U.S., and (b) post-WW2. The Royal
>Marines are a small, elite commando-type force, as are most other
>nations' marines or "naval infantry."
>
OK, here's my suggestion : let's call them "Starfleet's marines"
or "Starfleet infantry". I don't understand the whole problem
if they were called "Starfleet Marines", they would still be
part of Starfleet with that name (unless they were "Federation
Marines", which is really harder to accept...)
And yes, with the possible only exception of the US, the world's
navies have their "naval infantry" as part of the Navy.
I think that goes back to the Spanish Armada, since they, as
opposed to the Brirish Navy, used their ships mainly to carry
soldiers who would land or board an enemy ship and fight in
close combat, rather than sailors that would maneuver the ship
and fire the cannons at long distance to sink the enemy ships
and kill their crews without having to board them...
>Marines orignated as shipboard troops. Their duties were:
>
>Guarding parts of the vessel
>Enforcing discipline
>Forming the backbone of landing forces
>Small arms men in action
>Augmenting the crew in action or "all hands" evolutions
>Forming larger infantry units (combined with other ships' marines) if
>needed
>
>Most large-scale ground action, even amphibious, were handled by the
>army.
>
>By this definition of "Marines," Starfleet's Security branch seems to
>fit the bill. We don't know if there's a Federation Army, though. It
>seems like there would have to be a larger, surface-warfare organization
>of some type. Maybe they are marines, maybe not.
>
>Or perhaps Federation doctrine didn't include large-scale battling for
>the surface of a planet? Maybe their space superiority made them think
>they could encircle a planet with starships and blast anything that
>moves? It would seem that the Dominion war would change this
>attitude...
>
Maybe... in that case, they would have been following the "British
pattern" rather than the "Spanish pattern" for a long long time...
>Just some speculation...
>
>--JTB
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Timo S Saloniemi
>>> Also, if O'Brien was part of some
>>> sort of ground unit before transferring to a Starship that is further
>>> evidence that the soldiers we have seen are not a seperate branch but
>part
>>> of regular Starfleet.
>>
>>O'Brien could have either actually *been* a Starfleet Marine, and
>>transferred to the naval service (perhaps he resigned after Setlik III
>>and eventually re-enlisted, this time in Starfleet navy), or he could
>>have been the equivalent of a Navy SEAL. We have SEALs and Marines
>>both, without any trouble.
>
>He was the Tactical Officer of the Rutledge, and then transferred to
>engineering after Setlik.
Let's count in ALL the relevant references. In "The Wounded", we learn
that O'Brien was made the Tactical Officer of the frigate Rutledge by
Capt. Maxwell (presumably he held another post in the early days of
his tour of duty aboard that ship). We learn O'Brien considered himself
a "soldier" back then (either during his TO stint or then during his
previous posting) - this statement comes both from "The Wounded" and
from the much later "Empok Nor", and seems to emphasize a difference
between being a "soldier" and simply being a Starfleet member.
We also learn that O'Brien saved the lives of Maxwell and several others
at Setlik III in 2347. In "Armageddon Game", O'Brien further elaborates
that he did this by field-repairing some sort of a transporter system,
thus whisking to safety a stranded landing party, and that this was the
first time he had toyed with transporters. The incident prompted O'Brien
to later "wear the yellow shirt", or words to that effect - apparently,
his uniform *color* changed due to the event. Either this means a change
from TO red to engineering yellow, or then from some other sort of
"soldier" color to yellow...
One possible career path for O'Brien is from Marine (with non-yellow
uniform) to ersatz Tactical Officer (perhaps to fill in for a fallen
commissioned officer comrade, even though O'Brien must have been a
nonocom) to one of the generic jacks-of-all-trades in engineering
(with an occasional stint in shipboard security duties as seen in
"Lonely Among Us") to a dedicated Transporter Chief to Chief of
Ops aboard DS9.
However, O'Brien cannot very well have begun his career as a Security man,
since he would have worn a yellow shirt in that duty and the reference
to shirt change in "Armageddon Game" would no longer make sense.
Then again, in 2347 Starfleet personnel still wore the uniforms familiar
from the movies II-VI. Engineers at that time seemed to wear yellow
(or the generic grey of Services) in most cases, while the color-coding of
security men was not quite obvious but may have been black. Thus, a change
from Security to Engineering would have been one from black to yellow,
fitting the known facts.
Of interest might be the fact that every time we have seen a distinct
ground pounder uniform ("Nor the Battle...", "The Siege of AR-558"),
it has had a red or yellow chest stripe, not a "Marines-specific" color
like green or brown. And we have never really heard anybody in a ground
pounder uniform called by an Army-style rank (the ground pounder in
"Nor the Battle..." was a Lieutenant in the Encyclopedia, which is
ambiguous at best). So if Marines exist, they may differ from regular
Starfleet goons only very subtly on the outside - perhaps a teeny weeny
"Marines" patch embroidered on the inside of the pants, or a certain
hairstyle, or a special secret handgrip...
Timo Saloniemi
Love Robin Miller
>would be no *other* kind of colonels in the Federation military (since
>Starfleet is a navy, not an army; although this does bring up the point
>of whether to use the phrase 'Federation Marines' or 'Starfleet
>Marines')
well.... since colonel west was wearing, whatever the minor differences it may
have had, a starfleet uniform....hence, starfleet marine(or whatever) as
opposed to federation marine(or whatever), which in my book would require a
different uniform....
look at the DTI (dept of temporal investigations)... civilian uniforms, not
starfleet-ish in any fashion... thus a federation agency as opposed to a
starfleet one...
lr
Love Robin Miller
>they all had the gold shirts on TNG on up through Voyager. We also saw
>Security
>personnel in ST III and VI, or were they...? They had Starfleet uniforms, but
>with black for their departmental colour.
hmm... what about in TMP, those security-types that had the body arnor and
helmets? could they have been marines?
Timo S Saloniemi
>>Except that the red shirts also included Engineering and Operations, just as
>>they all had the gold shirts on TNG on up through Voyager. We also saw
>>Security
>>personnel in ST III and VI, or were they...? They had Starfleet uniforms, but
>>with black for their departmental colour.
>
>helmets? could they have been marines?
Certainly. However, they had naval ranks (or at least I believe the
Spanish-y guy who accompanied Kirk to Ilia's quarters was called
Ensign by the captain, or was it by McCoy?). There's nothing to say a
future Marine organization couldn't have switched over to naval ranks,
since there are basically just as many enlisted and officer grades in
the army and navy hierarchies.
Of some interest might be the fact that these same guys in football armor
turn up in the obviously surface-located holding facility when Kirk and
Sulu break McCoy out of it in STIII. It's obviously a Starfleet gaol of
sorts, since the regular guards have the Starfleet arrowhead insignia -
but would "shipboard security" troops be available to defend it? Wouldn't
a broader organization like Marines be a more likely candidate for
responding to a jailbreak like that (or coming to escort away McCoy
and possibly detain Kirk as they were probably going to do)?
Then again, the security forces in football armor never seemed to have
a separate chain of command - they always yielded to the nearest
"navy" officer, no matter his or her rank. Given the proliferation
of junior and even senior officers in traditional enlisted jobs in
Starfleet, it would be strange indeed if the football armor teams
weren't led by Lieutenants. Would a Marine Lt. really give up his
command to a Navy officer the way these guys always seem to in the
movies?
Timo Saloniemi
scat.spradlin
representation of what Security should be. Why shouldn't htey have body
armor and helmets? And why shouldn't they be the big brutish blokes like
they were in TOS?
The TMP uniforms for Security were efficient and intimidating. Can you
imagine being an intruder, and seeing a bunch of guys running at you in
tailored velour shirts and flamenco boots? Not really impressive, is it?
But 250-lb men in armor and a lot of attitude...That's different!
Love Robin Miller <love...@aol.comShields> wrote in article
<19990621023928...@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
> >Except that the red shirts also included Engineering and Operations,
just as
> >they all had the gold shirts on TNG on up through Voyager. We also saw
> >Security
> >personnel in ST III and VI, or were they...? They had Starfleet
uniforms, but
> >with black for their departmental colour.
>
> hmm... what about in TMP, those security-types that had the body arnor
and
> helmets? could they have been marines?
>
Love Robin Miller
>maybe one could consider only torpedoes as "ordnance," but the phaser crews
>definitely wear gold.
hmm... wasnt the officer sent down from the bridge to cover injured personnel?
temporay assignment
Ryan McReynolds
news:19990622004946...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
> hmm... wasnt the officer sent down from the bridge to cover injured
> personnel?
I can't remember, but even if that's the case, all of the other phaser crew
still wore gold as well. Specifically Martine and Tomlinson, the two happy
almost-newlyweds who both work the phasers.
-=Ryan McReynolds=-
David L. Jaroslav
>
> I know
> that you're postulating that said security personnel would have undergone Marine
> training, but are commissioned at Naval ranks. Problem here is that they
> evidently go through Starfleet Academy, just like the rest of the officer corps.
Plenty of US Marine officers graduated from Annapolis. That hardly
settles the question.
--
Dave J.
David L. Jaroslav
>
> > Have we forgotten Col. West. He was the assassin in ST:The Undiscovered
> > Country. I believe it was mentioned in the film that he was a Marine.
> Then the Federation/Starfleet Marines ARE canon!
Unfortunately, it's not so clear-cut as this. The fact that Rene
Auberjonois's character held the rank of Colonel is canon, but there
was no use of the word "Marine" in the film. It's the logical
conclusion, of course, but it (unfortunately) still leaves room for
the naysayers.
--
Dave J.
Jonah Rapp
I know the Marines draw their officer ranks from all over, but they are all trained as
Marine officers first, and whatever the specialty is where they study second. Or else,
they take additional training after their commission in whatever branch they were
serving first prior to becoming Marine officers. And this doesn't even come close to
addressing the enlisted corps -- a fine body of men, about to become fine bodies of
men...
--Jonah
SDG
wrote:
snip
>
>Of some interest might be the fact that these same guys in football armor
>turn up in the obviously surface-located holding facility when Kirk and
>Sulu break McCoy out of it in STIII. It's obviously a Starfleet gaol of
>sorts, since the regular guards have the Starfleet arrowhead insignia -
>but would "shipboard security" troops be available to defend it? Wouldn't
>a broader organization like Marines be a more likely candidate for
>responding to a jailbreak like that (or coming to escort away McCoy
>and possibly detain Kirk as they were probably going to do)?
>
I'd argue that a 'shore patrol' (military police) would be more
effective for policing temporary lockups or transferring prisoners,
while marines would be better suited as 'jail guards' at permanent
detention centres. A temporary lockup would be like a police
division, with the Shore Patrol using this as their headquarters;
thus, if a breakout occurred, the SP assigned to this headquarters
would respond rather than marines who aren't familiar with the
facility.
>Then again, the security forces in football armor never seemed to have
>a separate chain of command - they always yielded to the nearest
>"navy" officer, no matter his or her rank. Given the proliferation
>of junior and even senior officers in traditional enlisted jobs in
>Starfleet, it would be strange indeed if the football armor teams
>weren't led by Lieutenants. Would a Marine Lt. really give up his
>command to a Navy officer the way these guys always seem to in the
>movies?
>
Speculation re-enters.
Perhaps the footballers on ship are the equivalent of a marine
detachment on board a navy vessel; they usually only have an officer
commanding them, a senior NCO as 2IC, and the remainder PFC's or
Corporals. I'd assume that the footballers who responded on board a
ship are the roving patrols (PFC/Corp.) who respond to emergencies.
If I'm not mistaken, they assess the problem and call for their
officer/2IC if they can't handle the problem, or if they can contain
the problem but not solve it. Since it seems that there's always an
officer when they arrive, they defer to the ranking person.
If they're not marines, then they could be Shore Patrol or SEAL-type
ground pounders who supplement Starfleet Security and defer to any
ranking persons; they're there to provide muscle and phaser, not solve
problems.