ASVS Question and BINARY 180KB IN SIZE
Dwayne Allen Day
Weyoun wrote:
>sorry for posting the binary
Yeah, like you couldn't help it.
You, sir, are a dink.
DDAY
--
Weyoun the Dancing Borg
now what think you of my numbers??
am I correct?
--
I CAN HEAR PIXIES TALKING TO ME. AND LEPRECHAUNS AND GOBLINS AND SOMETIMES
EVEN ESKIMOS.
Dwayne Allen Day <wayn...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:VLAD4.254$D8....@grover.nit.gwu.edu...
Markus Wischerath
> now what think you of my numbers??
What numbers? Gee, that 180K binary must have been nuked by my filters.
That's happen if you post binaries to a non-binary group. A lot of people
won't even see them, you know. Have a nice day.
--
Markus Wischerath, Sysadmin | (+49)221-4704170 | m...@spinfo.uni-koeln.de
UCE is irrelevant. Spamming is futile. You will be filtered.
Weyoun the Dancing Borg
<<from A.t.startrek.vs.starwars, a biast newsgruop against Star Trek. I came
up with these figures to prove that there was at least something in the ST
universe that could beat the empire. somsone tried to prove me wrong as you
can see. It didnt work. My text is the fresh stuff, his has the ">>" next to
it>>
<quote>
I see no one has actually challenged (properly) what I said, so I guess I
was right: the borg would beat the Empire. IF you did not recieve the post,
here it is again.
please visit http://www.btinternet.com/~szypryt/ships2scale.gif before you
go firther. you need to lookat the image.
dont it?
good.
MY biggest posting ever! (and I worked out all the stuff in it!)
I know my math wasnt quite correct. on adding up some figues, I was around
20K out. But that was a disadvantage to ME because it meant there were less
borg ships, so it is a good thing for the Star Wars side, but it still left
over 34 million borg cubes in existance.
now prove me wrong!
> What proof do you have that they have this many cubes, even the most
> generous estimates in favour of Trek (Satans speculation site aka the
> Daystrom Institute) only say in the millions although that is a bit hard
to
> believe.
why is it so hard to believe? The borg assimilate , or at least are caperble
of assimilating, almost everyintg that they come across. Be it ships,
planets or individuals.
Do you realise how big a number hundreds of billions actually is,
yes, I put the number next to the words.
> they probably don't even have enough Borg to act as crew for this many
> (100,00 borg per cube)
um, since WHEN was it said that you needed tens of thousands per cube?
in theory, you only need a few dozen to regulate ethe systems.
considering the fact that they only control a small
> area of the milky way that is not even as big as one quadrant. And
> considering that their holdings are this small then they definately don't
> have the industrial capacity to build this many
why? Are you nuts? I just said that the borg can assimilate everythign they
come across (with the exception of species 8472 no one has succcessfully
resisted them for a long period of time. the only reason the federation have
beaten the borg is becasue Picard knows all their weak spots. evidence: when
picard isn't there, allt he other federation ships are destoryed: Best of
Both Worlds, Star Trek First Contact. Also, I know Voyager has beaten them:
Sevon of ine helps them, and she is/was borg. also in Drone, One was a 29th
century Borg who destoryed the sphere)
Say there is 6 billion people on the average homworld? Borg come along:
that's 6 billion drones. even by your own calculations (10000 drones a
ship), that is enough drones for 600000 ships
so assimilating say, 100 homeworlds, that is 600 000 000 000 (six hundred
billion drones) which is 60 000 000 (sixty million cubes).
The borg assimilate entire planets, and so can consume the resources of all
of them. Think how much metal is in a planet such as earth: a lonton iron
core for example. Plus asteroid belts and many other planets in ssytems:
Mercury is almost all iron for example. (as in planet, not the element
mercury btw))
now, each cube is about 24 cubic kilometres right (Dark Forntier, VOY)? And
from each screen-shot we've ever seen ("Q-Who?", "The best of Both Worlds",
"Star Trek First Contact", "Drone", "Scorpian") we see that they are very
hollow. ie, theya re not solid by a long way. It seems about 50% of the
actual cube is material. That is guess work, and I am not saying it is
official, but from camera-pans, we can see that it is roughly correct.
So that is 12-13 cubic km of metal right?
now mercury is 4878km in diameter. We know that it has a very large iron
core (NASA) so we'll give it a core-diameter of 4000km (which according to
cut-outs is about right). That means it has a volume of usuable (read that:
assimialable) meterials of 167552 cubic kilometres. This can provide enough
materials for 12888 cubes.
factor in earth's core, Mars, Pluto, Jupiter (possibly an iron cube at the
cntre) and Venus. Lets say collectively they have enough metal for 30 000
cubes. I think we can say that is fair: Mercury is a small planet, whilst
each of the others is much larger.
Now, factor in the Asteroid belt. How much metal there? Say another 5000
cubes available?
so that is 25 000 cubes from the Sol system alone right?
now, I know that solar systems are NOT all like Sol. So we will say that out
of the thousands of systems, a quarter has this much metal.
But what is a quarter of "thousands".
now in Scorpain part I, we heard that "their space is vast. it appears to
stretch across THOUSANDS of solar systems".
Well they did not say "tens of thousands of solar systems" so the up-most
number can be 9999 right? Let's call it 10K just to make stuff simpler.
Next, the smallest could be 1001 systems right? call it 1K. So the average
amount between them is 11000 / 2 = 5500 systems.
So a quarter of this is what? 1375 systems with the same metal-volume of
Sol. Some will have more, some will have less. We must assume Sol is an
"average" system.
so that is 1375 x 25000 cubes = 34 375 000 cubes, which is thirty-four
million, three hundred and seventy-five thousand cubes.
This is a large number. Now the Borg are not confined to their space right?
We know this: In Scorpian we learned that they are accessing other
dimentions. In numberous other episodes, we see they have attacked Klingons,
Romulans and the Federtaion. (Unity, BOBW, STFC) so they assimilate many
ships. Enough for say, another 50 000 cubes?
but that is negligable.
so 5500 systems in Borg Space right?
How many assimilated? Say half had populations on? (In Star Trek, AND Star
Wars, many planets are habitable, and there is usually at least 1 M-Class
planet <earth like> in a solar system.)
so say 2750 planets with a mean population of around 3 billion each?
I use this as not all with have 6 billion on. Some will have more, and some
will have less, but we assume earth is an average planet: Quo'Nos, Romulas,
Cardassia etc all ahve similar populations.
so 3 000 000 000 x 2750 planets = 8250000000000 drones
now that is enough for (Assuming 10K per cube as you said) 825 000 000
cubes. More than enough for the 34 million cubes.
We must also realise that the Borg have Spheres, scouts and other ships. But
again, we will ignore this. We will say they only have cubes to attack the
Death-Star II.
Say the borg sent 34 million cubes against the Death Star. That is
340000000000 drones on board.
We know that the borg can beam through any shield that the Federation has
encountered. So we can assume that the Death Star is no exception. I dont
care how powerful the shield is, the borg can go through them. Seven has
said they can do this numerous times.
The borg have the ability to adapt, but as my image showed, the borg cube is
tiny in comparison to the death-start Mark II. so 1 shot and it is dead.
Fine.
Let's also pretend that the Empire has 100s of Death Stars. Let's say 1000
of them.
even with this number, that is 34000 Borg Cubes per Death StarII.
I believe that they could easily overwhelm them.
And what if the borg beamed on-board? They could assimilate the Death Star.
Even meeting resistance such as storm-troopers, the borg would adapt to the
hand weapons. Now drones each have hand weapson - "Survival Instinct, VOY"
so each could fire back at the storm-troopers.
Now on board the nice little Death Stars are computers that contain info on
hyper-drives right? If not, they contain thousands of people that work
there. One of them is BOUND to know how a hyperdrive works, and the borg
could assimilate. Buta gain, this is not allowed int he FAQ I don't think.
or to put it another way it
> you think that they have this industrial capacity when they have this few
> world then the Empire which controls almost an entire galaxy must be able
to
> build trillions upon trillions of ships and each could attack a single
borg
> cube totally overwhelming it.
Trillions upon trillions??!!
there are only about 10K Star Destroyers.
and you said 5 Death Stars in Total: ANH, ROTJ, and the 3 building at the
time of ROTJ
Face it you can not beat the Empire with an
> argument based on numbers,
1 perosn vs an ant: person wins.
1 person vs 34 million ants...
it is concievable that if the borg threw all
> their ships against the Death Star then they may beat it
MAY??!!
but if the Empire
> turned all their indusry towards building Death Stars they could build
> hundreds a year (three were being built in secret at the time of Endor)
and
> nothing the borg have could stand up against that.
err... read above.
>
> As for Transwarp the speed that the Borg are capable of a significantly
less
> than Hyperdrive (the tarnswarp drive they have isn't even very good
compared
> to that of species like the Voth and even theirs isn't near Hyperdrive).
Do
> you understand how fast being able to cross the galaxy in a matter of
hours
> (as the hyperdrive on the galaxy gun missiles could) is? Obvoiusly not as
> you seem to think the Borg can match it without any proof at all.
yes yes yes,a ll very well.
First the Galaxy Gun (I think that is what you are refering to) could fire
projectiles across hyper-spce to the other side of the galaxy. These
projectiles, or milliles or whatever they are, drop out of hyper-space near
the target, and then hit it.
Fine, but as you said it takes hours for somethign to corss the galaxy, and
so by the time it has reached it's destination, the ship has moved. Of
course, this gun is to attack planets isn't it? so they dont move much.
</quote>
Dwayne Allen Day
: was right: the borg would beat the Empire. IF you did not recieve the post,
: here it is again.
: please visit http://www.btinternet.com/~szypryt/ships2scale.gif before you
And you couldn't just send people to the link in the first place?! You
had to post binaries to a non-binaries group? Now I see that your sloppy
postings are not simply the result of laziness, but rudeness. I take back
my previous comment--you're worse than a dink. You're a dinking dink.
DDAY
Ryan McReynolds
challenged you findings because (hopefully) they were all smart enough to
know that that conversation shouldn't happen here to begin with. Please
show further restraint in the future in choosing the appropriate newsgroup
for your message, and use a link to your graphic, especially if it's over
100K. Thanks.
--
-=Ryan McReynolds=-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't
go away." --Phillip K. Dick
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Ryan McReynolds <rmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Graham Kennedy
>
> This forum is utterly inappropriate for your post to begin with. Nobody
> challenged you findings because (hopefully) they were all smart enough to
> know that that conversation shouldn't happen here to begin with. Please
> show further restraint in the future in choosing the appropriate newsgroup
> for your message, and use a link to your graphic, especially if it's over
> 100K. Thanks.
Well I was going to email him a reply since he specifically
asked my opinion. But seeing his next reply to your post,
I'm glad I didn't bother.
--
Graham Kennedy
Dwayne Allen Day
: Well I was going to email him a reply since he specifically
: asked my opinion. But seeing his next reply to your post,
: I'm glad I didn't bother.
Yeah. Anybody get the feeling that we're dealing with someone not running
on all six cylinders here?
DDAY
Admiral Korel
"Weyoun the Dancing Borg" on r.a.s.t. regarding a discussion in a.s.v.s.
about a Borg-vs-Empire scenario. The original post is at the end. I wanted
to add my own two cents. If this is a months-old thread or something, or if
crossposting bin verboten on your NG, my apologies. And forgive my ignorance
about some matters Warsian; I've only seen the movies, I don't read the
books.>
>oops:
First off, /don't/ post binaries here. I'm sure you've heard they're not
allowed /at least/ once, it's repeated often enough. I'll have to concur
with Dwayne (and popular opinion around here, it would seem.)
That said, I couldn't resist replying to /this/. I wonder if I should try
lurking in st.vs.sw sometime... Graham, do you still hang out there? Is it
worth my time?
Okay, first off; yes, I agree that the Borg would kick the Empire's ass.
There are many, many reasons for this. Most of Weyoun's (whatever possessed
you to alias yourself after a lying, cheating weasel, anyway?) reasons are a
little OTT, but here are /mine/.
However big the Empire is, it's not been around for all that long (only
since sometime after TPM, after all, which is within Ye Vader's lifetime);
admittedly, the Republic was around for an indeterminate length of time
before then, but it would hardly have had the same industrial base, to judge
by TPM, and certainly wouldn't have been so geared towards military
production.
The Borg, on the other hand, have been around for millenia - five thousand
is the minimum established, I believe, based on some recent Voyager quote I
haven't seen yet, and there are hints of an age in the hundreds-of-thousands
range. And they don't change much. They assimilate, absorb, repeat as
needed.
The Borg have technologies /way/ beyond the Empire. Hell, look at the
Federation, mere babes-in-the-technological-woods in comparison; they've got
replicators, m/am annihilation, phasers (plasma lasers? Ha!), photon
torpedoes, shields considerably more powerful than a star destroyer's seem
to be, and a bunch of other stuff I can't think of right now ("cheap"
forcefields are an obvious non-combat example). The Empire has fusion power,
big lasers, and hyperdrive (seemingly its only big technological advantage,
and the ST universe can beat that too - quantum slipstream drive, with
/conservative/ galaxy-crossing times in the range of ten hours, and the Borg
assimilated it...) Admittedly, as Graham Kennedy's excellent "Portal" fanfic
posits, the Empire applies its technologies on a pretty huge scale, but this
conflicts with one of my own little personal platitudes: "In a non-stagnant
society, progress tends to outpace audacity." That the Empire can build
fusion generators the size of small moons etc. without discovering something
/better/ than fusion implies a lack of innovation. Would anyone here
seriously claim that the Empire would be able to ingeniously devise some new
gimmick to defeat the Borg in the space of a few minutes, as most of the ST
universe can do? (Okay, I exaggerate, but you take my point.)
Now, the Borg outpace even the technologies mentioned above. They have a
production base which, while undeniably smaller than the Empire's, is very
probably much more concentrated and efficient. After all, they were able to
build at least one "unicomplex" with partial internal dimensions in the 600
km range, and there was no indication that this construct was unique.
Furthermore, it didn't seem to be anywhere particularly important. And
indeed, the contention that the Borg's space is smaller than the Empire's is
questionable; we've seen them cross universes in search of new conquests,
and while "Scorpion" was probably their first attempt, we can't be sure of
that.
While the idea of the Borg simply taking apart planets to build ships is a
little silly-sounding, it should not be dismissed; however, even that
extreme is not necessary for the Borg to be more than a match for the
Empire. After all, they've got replicators; I wouldn't be surprised if the
Borg were capable of simply scooping up asteroid belts and Oort clouds and
transmuting them into the required materiel.
The Borg can generate artificial quantum singularities. Can you imagine one
of those being dumped in the Empire's shipping lanes?
The obvious argument; the Borg can assimilate all the knowledge of the
Empire, or at least most of the combat-related stuff, after one battle. The
Borg do not have a homeworld, or particularly important worlds. They're
holographic in concept; the part contains the whole. One Borg cube could
concievably rebuild the Collective. OTOH, the Empire could be decapitated
with one nova-triggering; a few dozen (or hundred, or thousand) surgical
strikes could effectively disintegrate its military infrastructure.
There's more, but it's late, and I'd rather see how this is recieved first.
Let the flaming commence...
>> What proof do you have that they have this many cubes, even the most
>> generous estimates in favour of Trek (Satans speculation site aka the
>> Daystrom Institute) only say in the millions although that is a bit hard
to
>> believe.
Hmm... Part of me wants to say "Wayne Poe, right?".
The following is Weyoun's original post. I want to make it absolutely clear
that I don't directly agree with most of his argument.
<quote>
dont it?
good.
now prove me wrong!
but that is negligable.
Trillions upon trillions??!!
MAY??!!
err... read above.
</quote>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morgan McEvoy, morg...@esatclear.ie
"It's like the laws of physics just went out the window."
"And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient!"
Aron Kerkhof
<morg...@esatclear.ie/> wrote:
><to the Warsies who get this: This is part of a followup to a post by
>"Weyoun the Dancing Borg" on r.a.s.t. regarding a discussion in a.s.v.s.
>about a Borg-vs-Empire scenario. The original post is at the end. I wanted
>to add my own two cents. If this is a months-old thread or something, or if
>crossposting bin verboten on your NG, my apologies. And forgive my ignorance
>about some matters Warsian; I've only seen the movies, I don't read the
>books.>
We need fresh blood anyway.
>However big the Empire is, it's not been around for all that long (only
>since sometime after TPM, after all, which is within Ye Vader's lifetime);
>admittedly, the Republic was around for an indeterminate length of time
>before then, but it would hardly have had the same industrial base, to judge
>by TPM, and certainly wouldn't have been so geared towards military
>production.
My first problem with your analysis: The empire is just the Old
Republic now under new management. It annexed all of the OR's
territory, resources, and fleet, as well as pumping in 25,000 Star
Destroyers into the mix in as little as 25 years, as you've noted.
Too, they built a Death Star in secret, which speaks of their massive
economic advantage. Actually, they built around 5 death stars, but I
won't dogmatically say they were all built secretly. So the Old
Republic = The New Order in all but name and policies on personal
freedom.
The OR was around for at least 10,000 years. The Empire at it's
height held sway over the entire Galaxy, which is slightly bigger than
our own (120,000 lys across).
>The Borg, on the other hand, have been around for millenia - five thousand
>is the minimum established, I believe, based on some recent Voyager quote I
>haven't seen yet, and there are hints of an age in the hundreds-of-thousands
>range. And they don't change much. They assimilate, absorb, repeat as
>needed.
I accept your minimum, but reject the hundreds of thousands range...
look at their naming system. There was a huge jump between
discovering humans (5618) and the fluidic space bugs (8742) and around
2 1/2 years between them and the most recent race (10026). Thus, the
Borg either expanded, very, very slowly at first, or have not been
around that long after all.
>The Borg have technologies /way/ beyond the Empire. Hell, look at the
>Federation, mere babes-in-the-technological-woods in comparison; they've got
>replicators, m/am annihilation, phasers (plasma lasers? Ha!), photon
>torpedoes, shields considerably more powerful than a star destroyer's seem
>to be, and a bunch of other stuff I can't think of right now ("cheap"
>forcefields are an obvious non-combat example).
The problem I have with your technological advantages is that few of
them would contribute to a military victory. It matters not WHAT kind
of technology the Empire uses to construct it's fleet (replication,
bolt by bolt construction, hydroponics, whatever) it only matters that
they built 25,000 mile long starships in 20 years, along with five 120
km diameter battle stations. Obviously, SW has power generation
beyond simple fusion, else Alderaan would not have happened. (Hint:
the DS would have to convert over 100% of its mass to energy to
achieve the power witnessed there.) Calculations of TL power put them
at between 20 megatons to 2 gigatons per shot, which is far more than
the Federation's photon torpedo, which yields a maximum 64 MT. We
know photon torpedoes en masse are effective against borg, even once
adapted to. Since a SD can go 10-20 minutes trading shots with
vessels with similar firepower (ala ROTJ) it's shielding mustbe able
to cope with the aforementioned outputs.
>The Empire has fusion power,
>big lasers,
This is simply not true. A little bit of thinking about just how much
power the Death Star puts out will allow you to see this.
>and hyperdrive (seemingly its only big technological advantage,
>and the ST universe can beat that too - quantum slipstream drive, with
>/conservative/ galaxy-crossing times in the range of ten hours, and the Borg
>assimilated it...)
Could I see your calculations on that? If that were true, then it
would be roughly on par with SW speeds, but in my time at ASVS I have
yet to see anything Trek match those speeds. The fastest SW speed
that I am aware of is Darth Mauls trip from Coruscant to Tatooine
which yields speeds in the 10-50 million times c range.
>Admittedly, as Graham Kennedy's excellent "Portal" fanfic
Ugh. :-)
>posits, the Empire applies its technologies on a pretty huge scale, but this
>conflicts with one of my own little personal platitudes: "In a non-stagnant
>society, progress tends to outpace audacity." That the Empire can build
>fusion generators the size of small moons etc. without discovering something
>/better/ than fusion implies a lack of innovation.
It would. However, they must have innovated somewhere, as even if the
Death Star were just one big fusion generator, it STILL would not have
been able to generate anywhere near the power to destroy Alderaan.
>Would anyone here
>seriously claim that the Empire would be able to ingeniously devise some new
>gimmick to defeat the Borg in the space of a few minutes, as most of the ST
>universe can do? (Okay, I exaggerate, but you take my point.)
Well, every since... New Jedi Order... the SW denizens have
discovered the magic of technobabble, so as much as it pains me to say
this, yes, I think they could pull a solution out of their rearmost
parts the same as any of the Feds. (Sublimate the planet's crust?!!?
That's impossible... unless!! We flip the benzine ring on the
shieldships, and reverse the coolant flow, then it... just... might...
work!)
>Now, the Borg outpace even the technologies mentioned above.
Not by too much. Mostly in scale, not truly new technology.
>They have a
>production base which, while undeniably smaller than the Empire's, is very
>probably much more concentrated and efficient.
We have no real concrete numbers here, unlike what SW has to go on.
You can't say the borg built X ammount of starships in Y ammount of
years. So what you go on is guesswork based on your gut feeling that
the Borg are in fact better, which is not the greatest way to go about
things, you must admit.
How many cubes were said to be lost to S8742? The borg considered
that a pretty big dent, did they not? I think that would be a pretty
good indicator of what kind of losses they deem unacceptable.
>After all, they were able to
>build at least one "unicomplex" with partial internal dimensions in the 600
>km range, and there was no indication that this construct was unique.
>Furthermore, it didn't seem to be anywhere particularly important. And
>indeed, the contention that the Borg's space is smaller than the Empire's is
>questionable; we've seen them cross universes in search of new conquests,
>and while "Scorpion" was probably their first attempt, we can't be sure of
>that.
Perhaps, but the evidence that the Borg control anything like an
entire 120 ly galaxy is non existant. Again we are down to the "I
thinks" which is where our little group has been mired in for the last
year or so.
>While the idea of the Borg simply taking apart planets to build ships is a
>little silly-sounding, it should not be dismissed; however, even that
>extreme is not necessary for the Borg to be more than a match for the
>Empire. After all, they've got replicators; I wouldn't be surprised if the
>Borg were capable of simply scooping up asteroid belts and Oort clouds and
>transmuting them into the required materiel.
The Empire has this technology, and they are called World
Devastators. Almost forgot them. They are like TOS world eaters...
except they manufacture Star Destroyers with the energy/matter they
take from planets.
>The Borg can generate artificial quantum singularities. Can you imagine one
>of those being dumped in the Empire's shipping lanes?
The Empire can generate large gravity masses as well. The black hole
would not harm the ships, merely drop them out of warp, after which it
would be noted in the Navcomps and avoided.
>The obvious argument; the Borg can assimilate all the knowledge of the
>Empire, or at least most of the combat-related stuff, after one battle.
Assuming they win said battle.
>The
>Borg do not have a homeworld, or particularly important worlds. They're
>holographic in concept; the part contains the whole. One Borg cube could
>concievably rebuild the Collective. OTOH, the Empire could be decapitated
>with one nova-triggering; a few dozen (or hundred, or thousand) surgical
>strikes could effectively disintegrate its military infrastructure.
Pending your speed estimate above, I would say this is impossible.
The borg are just too slow to conduct a successful invasion of
Imperial space.
>There's more, but it's late, and I'd rather see how this is recieved first.
>Let the flaming commence...
Flaming? In *this* group? Nah, you have us all wrong. :-)
The problem as I see it is that while I feel SW has some pretty
impressive concrete numbers, there just aren't that many for ST.
What's in the tech manuals is not very impressive, and much of the
information for Borg and S8742 (probably the only race to give the
Empire a run for its money IMO) is sketchy and contradictory. Then
you have Voyager bitchslapping the Borg around so much it's looking
like ANYbody can do it. So it boils down to both sides in sheer
disbelief that the other side can't see that we're right, god dammit,
are you blind?
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
Graham Kennedy
>
> <to the Warsies who get this: This is part of a followup to a post by
> "Weyoun the Dancing Borg" on r.a.s.t. regarding a discussion in a.s.v.s.
> about a Borg-vs-Empire scenario. The original post is at the end. I wanted
> to add my own two cents. If this is a months-old thread or something, or if
> crossposting bin verboten on your NG, my apologies. And forgive my ignorance
> about some matters Warsian; I've only seen the movies, I don't read the
> books.>
>
> >oops:
>
> First off, /don't/ post binaries here. I'm sure you've heard they're not
> allowed /at least/ once, it's repeated often enough. I'll have to concur
> with Dwayne (and popular opinion around here, it would seem.)
>
> That said, I couldn't resist replying to /this/. I wonder if I should try
> lurking in st.vs.sw sometime... Graham, do you still hang out there?
No, not for about two years now.
> Is it worth my time?
No. It isn't worth anybodies time, IMHO.
--
Graham Kennedy
Ryan McReynolds
over there. The level of intelligence on the whole is incredibly low, and
both sides are so entrenched that they rarely concede even the most obvious
point. I'm sorry to say, usually the Trek side is the more ignorant and
insane of the two. Most of the time I was arguing against them, combating
idiocy in our ranks. If half of the Trekkies in a.s.v.s came to r.a.s.t or
Rick's group we would probably go nuts explaining things like the difference
between watts and joules to them. Anyway, as others have said, this isn't
the forum. Korel, if you're interested, just go join the fray. If you're
not, please refrain from posting here about it, and talk to Weyoun the
Dancing Borg directly through email.
--
-=Ryan McReynolds=-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't
go away." --Phillip K. Dick
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38E11A1B...@adeadend.demon.co.uk...
> Admiral Korel wrote:
> >
> > <to the Warsies who get this: This is part of a followup to a post by
> > "Weyoun the Dancing Borg" on r.a.s.t. regarding a discussion in a.s.v.s.
> > about a Borg-vs-Empire scenario. The original post is at the end. I
wanted
> > to add my own two cents. If this is a months-old thread or something, or
if
> > crossposting bin verboten on your NG, my apologies. And forgive my
ignorance
> > about some matters Warsian; I've only seen the movies, I don't read the
> > books.>
> >
> > >oops:
> >
> > First off, /don't/ post binaries here. I'm sure you've heard they're not
> > allowed /at least/ once, it's repeated often enough. I'll have to concur
> > with Dwayne (and popular opinion around here, it would seem.)
> >
> > That said, I couldn't resist replying to /this/. I wonder if I should
try
> > lurking in st.vs.sw sometime... Graham, do you still hang out there?
>
> No, not for about two years now.
>
> > Is it worth my time?
>
Commander Thelea
>Empire's ass. There are many, many reasons for this. Most of
>Weyoun's (whatever possessed you to alias yourself after a
>lying, cheating weasel, anyway?) reasons are a little OTT, but
>here are /mine/.
I'm listening.. With interest.
>However big the Empire is, it's not been around for all that
>long (only since sometime after TPM, after all, which is within
>Ye Vader's lifetime);
>admittedly, the Republic was around for an indeterminate length
>of time before then, but it would hardly have had the same
>industrial base, to judge by TPM, and certainly wouldn't have
>been so geared towards military production.
Obviously the Republic had to have some kind of military. and
we do have evidence of the contruction power of the Empire..
Case in point, the Death Star Mk.II, which was about half done
in six months.
My own calculations, based purely on official information and
supported by the Ddonna Calcs and one of Tarkin's statements
during ANH indicate that the empire employs over Two Million
ISDs, and approaching 400,000,000 other capital combat
starships. Of those, some 10,000 are ships LARGER than ISDs.
These are spread among 51 million habitable planets; One
million member worlds with populations in the TRILLIONS, and
another fifty million colonies, protectorates, and governorships.
The Empire has lasted for 25,000.. The same length as the
Republic, because the Empire IS the Republic.
This is not a totally new government taking over. It's the
Chancellor declaring himself dictator and renaming the thing.
The Third Reich was still Germany, you know, and it's the same
thing here.
>The Borg, on the other hand, have been around for millenia -
>five thousand is the minimum established, I believe, based on
>some recent Voyager quote I haven't seen yet, and there are
>hints of an age in the hundreds-of-thousands range. And they
>don't change much. They assimilate, absorb, repeat as needed.
And because of it, in addition to being an abomination, they
become an inferior abomination. They are technologically
inferior to the Empire; Even if they can adapt to the Empire's
Plasma-based weaponry, it's IRRELVENT: Imperial warships can
direct more energy into their weapons than the Borg can into
their shields, and hence even fully adapted the shields well
overload from trying to absorb to much energy, and collapse.
I even assumed that the shields could force the Imperial TL
Bolts to artificially detonate into plasma flak bursts; Enough
plasma would still hit a cube that two ISDs working together
could destroy one, with the cost of one of those ISDs. And
that's using the most generous possible Pro-Borg calculations,
an the worst Anti-Empire ones.
>The Borg have technologies /way/ beyond the Empire. Hell, look
>at the Federation, mere babes-in-the-technological-woods in
>comparison; they've got replicators, m/am annihilation, phasers
Phasers are exceptionally complicated, primitive weapons. IMHO,
the Feds should have stuck with lasers and worked on beefing up
their power. Replicators Star Wars DOES have. In the first Han
Solo trilogy, Han Solo repeatedly mentions an identical
technology they call "Duplicators".
>(plasma lasers? Ha!), photon torpedoes, shields considerably
Phasers are particle beams that contain an unknown particle
that induces the NDF effect in the target, which becames less
effective the more heavily armoured the ship is; They'd be
virtually useless against the heavy Imperial capital ships
(Except Defiant style Pulse Phasers), though they'd easily rip
through dozens of fighters.
The only weapons the Feds would have for engaging the Empire on
anything remotely near equal terms are Quantum torpedoes.
>more powerful than a star destroyer's seem to be, and a bunch
>of other stuff I can't think of right now ("cheap"
>forcefields are an obvious non-combat example). The Empire has
>fusion power, big lasers, and hyperdrive (seemingly its only
>big technological advantage, and the ST universe can beat that
>too - quantum slipstream drive, with
The Empire does NOT use Fusion Power as we think of it; The
Death Star, it is clearly stated to have a Hypermatter Reactor,
NOT a fusion reactor.
An ISD does not have a Fusion reactor, either. It just uses a
reactor "As Powerful as a miniature sun". Might I also remind
everyone that even if you want to interpet it as BEING a
miniature sun.. A Black Hole is technically a miniature sun, and
fits the power requirements of an ISD, while normal fusion could
NEVER provide the energy for the Two Gigaton Plasma shots we
know ISDs can fire thanks to ESB and the asteroid calcs.
>/conservative/ galaxy-crossing times in the range of ten hours,
>and the Borg assimilated it...)
Actually, it was CLEARLY stated that it would take six months
for Quantum Slipstream drive to cross the Galaxy.
According to TPM, ANH, and other examples in the Canon films,
Star Wars can do it in four days in areas with little space
debris.
>Admittedly, as Graham Kennedy's >excellent "Portal" fanfic
I don't know what's excellent about the most blatant Pro-Trek
propaganda on the internet. It has the appearence of a nice
story, but his impossibly insane scientific advantage for the
Federation makes me sick to try and read it.
I used to believe in the material on his website, not really
considering things, but then I stopped by Mike Wong's and
started studying everything from a scientific standpoint, and
realized how utterly, insanely absurb it is.
>posits, the Empire applies its >technologies on a pretty huge
>scale, but this conflicts with >one of my own little personal
>platitudes: "In a non-stagnant >society, progress tends to
>outpace audacity." That the Empire >can build fusion generators
>the size of small moons etc. >without discovering something
They don't build Fusion Generators the size of small moons.
The Death Star uses a Hypermatter Reactor.
Imperial Society is stagnant because it is SO technologically
advanced that it DOESN'T NEED TO ADVANCE ANYMORE. It fits the
needs of it's citizens, and it hundreds of years more advanced
than the Federation.. Most likely thousands, even with
stagnation. Galactic Civilization has lasted 25,000 years,
united, and another good 65,000 before that, split up among tiny
various governments, until the actions of Xim the Despot forced
them to come together.
>/better/ than fusion implies a lack of innovation. Would anyone
>here seriously claim that the Empire would be able to
>ingeniously devise some new gimmick to defeat the Borg in the
>space of a few minutes, as most of the ST universe can do? >
>(Okay, I exaggerate, but you take my point.)
Yes, of course they would. "All batteries commence staggered
volley fire at the cubeship!" That's all they need to say. Two
ISDs will blow the Cube apart, at the cost of one ISD, WHEN THE
BORG have adapted as far as they cannot. You cannot violate the
conservation of energy, and the high power of the 90% Plasma/10%
Laser Turbolaser weaponry (That's my estimated percentage; it is
a mixed weapon, and it seems logical based on the description),
will rip apart Borg cubes, even detonating in Flak bursts, even
if the Borg atapt to the 10% laser section of the energy.. 1,800
megatons is still coming through. Remember what that solar flare
did to the Borg Transwarp ship... And that Solar Flare was far
WEAKER than an ISD's weapons.
Using Athega and comparing it with that incident, we find that
the shielding and hull armour of an ISD is ten times stronger
than that of a Borg Transwarp ship.
>Now, the Borg outpace even the technologies mentioned above.
>They have a production base which, while undeniably smaller
>than the Empire's, is very probably much more concentrated and
>efficient. After all, they were able to build at least
>one "unicomplex" with partial internal dimensions in the 600 km
>range, and there was no indication that this construct was
>unique. Furthermore, it didn't seem to be anywhere particularly
>important. And indeed, the contention that the Borg's space is
>smaller than the Empire's is questionable; we've seen them
>cross universes in search of new conquests, and
>while "Scorpion" was probably their first attempt, we can't be
>sure of that.
It seems to me that the other Universe was not a matter of
size, but of opening a pathway between dimensions.
The Borg have considerably inferior technological capability to
the Empire; They do not even control an entire Quadrant, and
with duplicators and construction droids, the Empire far
surpasses them.
>While the idea of the Borg simply taking apart planets to build
>ships is a little silly-sounding, it should not be dismissed;
>however, even that extreme is not necessary for the Borg to be
>more than a match for the Empire. After all, they've got
>replicators; I wouldn't be surprised if the Borg were capable
>of simply scooping up asteroid belts and Oort clouds and
>transmuting them into the required materiel.
World Devastators can do this FAR more efficiently, and, I
again remind you of Duplicators from the first Han Solo trilogy.
>The Borg can generate artificial quantum singularities. Can you
>imagine one of those being dumped in the Empire's shipping
>lanes?
It probably happens every time an ISD explodes; It immedietly
collapses in a burst of radiation, of course, but all evidence
Indicates that's what powers ISDs, and as far as I've seen, the
Borg cannot generate one that would last very long. The Gravity
warning sensors on Star Wars ships would bring that out of
hyperspace safely, anyway.
>The obvious argument; the Borg can assimilate all the knowledge
>of the Empire, or at least most of the combat-related stuff,
>after one battle. The Borg do not have a homeworld, or
>particularly important worlds. They're holographic in concept;
>the part contains the whole. One Borg cube could concievably
>rebuild the Collective. OTOH, the Empire could be decapitated
>with one nova-triggering; a few dozen (or hundred, or thousand)
>surgical strikes could effectively disintegrate its military
>infrastructure.
The Borg would either have the capture the wormhole, virtually
impossible with the numerological and technological superiourity
of the Empire, OR they would have to travel across years and
years of intergalactic space; With a faster Hyperdrive ship or a
wormhole in Imperial hands racing ahead, the galaxy would rally
a massive defence force, meet them on the edge of the SW Galaxy,
and cross them. Even the Trekkers at ASVS agree that a Borg
offensive is impossible; Only their ability to defend themselves
is seriously debated.
And there are many measures for stopping Borg assimilation;
Namely, self-destructing your ship.
And any Imperial officer would be smart enough to save one
charge in his blaster for his brains when fighting the Borg.
They'd not get much information at all.
>There's more, but it's late, and I'd rather see how this is
>recieved first. Let the flaming commence...
I really wouldn't want to flame you.. You make a sensible
arguement, but it's based on flawed informtion, and I hope to
show you those flaws so you can correct your perceptions in a
scientific manner.
>What proof do you have that they have this many cubes, even the
>>most generous estimates in favour of Trek (Satans speculation
>>site aka the Daystrom Institute) only say in the millions ?
>>although that is a bit hard to believe.
>Hmm... Part of me wants to say "Wayne Poe, right?".
Most likely. He's quite intelligent, and of course all rely on
th Brian Young, Curtis Saxton, and Michael Wong pages for
approrpiate information on Imperial firepower.
The following is Weyoun's original post. I want to make it
absolutely clear that I don't directly agree with most of his
argument.
Well, Federation shields are frequency based, Imperial shields
are not, so no Borg beam-throughs.
Next, the Galaxy Gun's missiles are shielded and armed with
defensive weaponry, and can make course changes.
If there's anything I've missed, let me know, and I'll be glad
to explain it.
Marina O'Leary
"ASVS as given me the title of Battlecruiser."
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Mike Dicenso
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
> Ryan McReynolds wrote:
> >
> > This forum is utterly inappropriate for your post to begin with. Nobody
> > challenged you findings because (hopefully) they were all smart enough to
> > know that that conversation shouldn't happen here to begin with. Please
> > show further restraint in the future in choosing the appropriate newsgroup
> > for your message, and use a link to your graphic, especially if it's over
> > 100K. Thanks.
>
> Well I was going to email him a reply since he specifically
> asked my opinion. But seeing his next reply to your post,
> I'm glad I didn't bother.
*Sigh*
Same old tired arguements, and egofests.
-Mike
Mike Dicenso
> My own calculations, based purely on official information and
> supported by the Ddonna Calcs and one of Tarkin's statements
> during ANH indicate that the empire employs over Two Million
> ISDs,
All General Dodonna says is that the DS I has a firepower "Greater than
half the starfleet". How does that equate to millions of ISDs? And just
what did Tarkin say during ANH that indicates a that there are millions of
ISDs, or other Imperial captial ships? The only thing I can recall is
Admiral Motti, and General Tagge's arguement. But that was Motti taunting
Tagge that the Rebels were "Dangerous to your starfleet, not to this
battlestation!".
> The Empire has lasted for 25,000.. The same length as the
> Republic, because the Empire IS the Republic.
Although it should be pointed out that the Republic apparently never
undertook such a massive shipbuilding program, and certainly as far as we
know, never produced anything like the Death Stars or SSDs in size. Luke,
Ben, and Han's reactions to seeing the DS I for the first time certainly
indicate that nothing like them was ever built before.
> This is not a totally new government taking over. It's the
> Chancellor declaring himself dictator and renaming the thing.
>
> The Third Reich was still Germany, you know, and it's the same
> thing here.
The difference between the Wehimar Republic, and the Third Reich is that
Hitler ordered the industrial infrastructure to to a wartime footing, and
violated in secret, as well as openly many of the limitaions placed on
Germany by the Treaty of Versaillies. This was a major change in the
German economy, and if the parallel holds, it would be the same for the
former Galactic Republic.
> overload from trying to absorb to much energy, and collapse.
>
> I even assumed that the shields could force the Imperial TL
> Bolts to artificially detonate into plasma flak bursts; Enough
> plasma would still hit a cube that two ISDs working together
> could destroy one, with the cost of one of those ISDs. And
> that's using the most generous possible Pro-Borg calculations,
> an the worst Anti-Empire ones.
>
> >The Borg have technologies /way/ beyond the Empire. Hell, look
> >at the Federation, mere babes-in-the-technological-woods in
> >comparison; they've got replicators, m/am annihilation, phasers
>
>
> Phasers are exceptionally complicated, primitive weapons. IMHO,
> the Feds should have stuck with lasers and worked on beefing up
> their power. Replicators Star Wars DOES have. In the first Han
> Solo trilogy, Han Solo repeatedly mentions an identical
> technology they call "Duplicators".
So Duplicators equal replicators? Can you describe how a duplicator works
in comparison to the transporter-based technology of the ST replicator?
> Phasers are particle beams that contain an unknown particle
> that induces the NDF effect in the target, which becames less
> effective the more heavily armoured the ship is; They'd be
> virtually useless against the heavy Imperial capital ships
> (Except Defiant style Pulse Phasers), though they'd easily rip
> through dozens of fighters.
Ah another alumni of Mike Wong's! Actually there are many cases,
especially during the Dominion War of phasers destroying/vaporizing huge
chunks of armor and hull out of various starships in the major fleet
actions. There is also the matter of how much things like SIF fields play
into the equation of how difficult it is to destroy the hull of an ST
ship. Presumably SW has something similar, or we'd see scenes of the DS
squash unceremoniously like a deflating balloon. All of these are factors
that must be taken into account when describing the effects we see on ST
and SW ships when they are shown being damaged on-screen.
> The Empire does NOT use Fusion Power as we think of it; The
> Death Star, it is clearly stated to have a Hypermatter Reactor,
> NOT a fusion reactor.
> An ISD does not have a Fusion reactor, either. It just uses a
> reactor "As Powerful as a miniature sun". Might I also remind
> everyone that even if you want to interpet it as BEING a
> miniature sun.. A Black Hole is technically a miniature sun, and
> fits the power requirements of an ISD, while normal fusion could
> NEVER provide the energy for the Two Gigaton Plasma shots we
> know ISDs can fire thanks to ESB and the asteroid calcs.
Romulan Warbirds use quantum singularities (black holes) to power their
warp cores, and can pulverize nearly a billion cubic meters of rock, and
at least melting some that to fuse the mass together within a three second
period of time. That also requires multi-gigaton level firepower, and we
don't know that's the upper limit of a D'Deridex's firepower either.
>
> >/conservative/ galaxy-crossing times in the range of ten hours,
> >and the Borg assimilated it...)
>
> Actually, it was CLEARLY stated that it would take six months
> for Quantum Slipstream drive to cross the Galaxy.
Wrong there. It was stated in the faked message that the journey would
take 3 months. However, when Arturis kidnaps Janeway and Seven, he states
that it will take only "A few hours" to travel back along the nearly 1,000
LY (conservative) distance to Borg space. That means that it would only
take a matter of a couple weeks at most for the Dauntless to travel across
the Milky Way galaxy! The Quantum Slipstream drive used in "Timeless" was
considerably faster than this, or any SW hyperspace. Travelling the 60,000
LY distance within a few minutes time, or about 500,000,000 times c!
>
> I don't know what's excellent about the most blatant Pro-Trek
> propaganda on the internet. It has the appearence of a nice
> story, but his impossibly insane scientific advantage for the
> Federation makes me sick to try and read it.
Don't take it too seriously, Graham wrote it just for fun.
>
> Imperial Society is stagnant because it is SO technologically
> advanced that it DOESN'T NEED TO ADVANCE ANYMORE. It fits the
> needs of it's citizens, and it hundreds of years more advanced
> than the Federation.. Most likely thousands, even with
> stagnation. Galactic Civilization has lasted 25,000 years,
> united, and another good 65,000 before that, split up among tiny
> various governments, until the actions of Xim the Despot forced
> them to come together.
We do know by the time of the 29th century in the ST universe, that
Federation vessels will have the capability to travel not only anywhere
in the Milky Way galaxy they want to in scant minutes, but travel back na
d forth in time with near impunity as witnessed in "Future's End", and
"Relativity". If the SW tech is head of ST in some areas, it's not more
than a few centuries at best.
> megatons is still coming through. Remember what that solar flare
> did to the Borg Transwarp ship... And that Solar Flare was far
> WEAKER than an ISD's weapons.
That conclusion is only workable though IF the vessel seen in "Descent"
was indeed a true Borg craft, and not something commandeered by Lore and
his rogue group of drones. The transwarp conduit seen in that episode
appeared to be stable on it's own, and not a product of the ship itself.
> Using Athega and comparing it with that incident, we find that
> the shielding and hull armour of an ISD is ten times stronger
> than that of a Borg Transwarp ship.
The Athega incident is a VERY poor thing to compare the two with! The
Judicator only spent scant minutes exposed to that star, and a rather
ordinary one at that based on it's appearance in the HTE comic
adapation. The rest of the time the Judicator spent in Nkllon's
shadow. That ISD still suffered enough damage from Athega to put her out
of action for a period of three weeks. By comparison, the E-D in
"Relics" withstood a G-type star for several hours with only her
navigation shields, and only used her heavily weakened combat shields when
a major solar flare eruption occured. Even then they had enough to
withstand being next to the star for 3 straight hours!
There are many better on-screen, and printed examples to use in favor if
ISD sheild strength, but this is'nt one of them.
> The Borg have considerably inferior technological capability to
> the Empire; They do not even control an entire Quadrant, and
> with duplicators and construction droids, the Empire far
> surpasses them.
They seem to control a fairly good chunk of the Delta quadrent, and have
made extensive forays throughout the Milky Way. As pointed out, the
Unicomplex was an enormous feat of engineering, at least 600 km, possibly
much greater than that. Well on par with the DS II.
> >of simply scooping up asteroid belts and Oort clouds and
> >transmuting them into the required materiel.
>
> World Devastators can do this FAR more efficiently, and, I
> again remind you of Duplicators from the first Han Solo trilogy.
I would have to question this. What basis of comparison do you have for
the WD's being so "efficent" over the Borg? I never saw anything in Dark
Empire which solidly supports such a claim. The WD's spat out lots of
automated TIE craft, and a few other things. But nothing on the level of
what your trying to ascribe to them.
> of the Empire, OR they would have to travel across years and
> years of intergalactic space; With a faster Hyperdrive ship or a
> wormhole in Imperial hands racing ahead, the galaxy would rally
> a massive defence force, meet them on the edge of the SW Galaxy,
> and cross them. Even the Trekkers at ASVS agree that a Borg
> offensive is impossible; Only their ability to defend themselves
> is seriously debated.
Without a serious near instantanous means of travel, such as a wormhole,
any such campaign by either the Empire, or Borg is impractical. Not to
mention where do you get this idea that the Borg transwarp conduits make
for slower travel than hyperspace?
> And there are many measures for stopping Borg assimilation;
> Namely, self-destructing your ship.
>
> And any Imperial officer would be smart enough to save one
> charge in his blaster for his brains when fighting the Borg.
> They'd not get much information at all.
This is more of a wishful thinking response. Most Imperial officers come
across as highly over confident, and might not think of destroying their
ship before it's too late. The Borg may also obtain information by
assimilating outposts, and smaller vessels too.
>
> I really wouldn't want to flame you.. You make a sensible
> arguement, but it's based on flawed informtion, and I hope to
> show you those flaws so you can correct your perceptions in a
> scientific manner.
The question can be turned around too. Are you so entrenched that you will
refuse to except a case of an ST power having an overwhelming advantage
over an SW one?
> >Hmm... Part of me wants to say "Wayne Poe, right?".
>
> Most likely. He's quite intelligent, and of course all rely on
> th Brian Young, Curtis Saxton, and Michael Wong pages for
> approrpiate information on Imperial firepower.
Yup I was right.
> The following is Weyoun's original post. I want to make it
> absolutely clear that I don't directly agree with most of his
> argument.
>
> Well, Federation shields are frequency based, Imperial shields
> are not, so no Borg beam-throughs.
Really? How do you know this? Pro-SW side can't have their cake and eat
too. This is a blatent "Is'nt SO!" kind of knee jerk reaction to what is
an obvious, and potentially overwhelming advantage by an ST power.
> Next, the Galaxy Gun's missiles are shielded and armed with
> defensive weaponry, and can make course changes.
Well if that does'nt sound like Dreadnought. Also the SW equivelant of the
"one time wonder". We are not likely to see such a weapon now, or ever
again in the SW universe. Just as we are not likely to see a Genesis
torpedo either in ST.
-Mike
Chuck
Mike Dicenso <mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.00032...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu...
> > megatons is still coming through. Remember what that solar flare
> > did to the Borg Transwarp ship... And that Solar Flare was far
> > WEAKER than an ISD's weapons.
>
> That conclusion is only workable though IF the vessel seen in "Descent"
> was indeed a true Borg craft, and not something commandeered by Lore and
> his rogue group of drones. The transwarp conduit seen in that episode
> appeared to be stable on it's own, and not a product of the ship itself.
Not that I really want to get involved in this cross-posted debate, but I'd
like to discuss this ship with anyone interested. We know the Borg ship
seen in Descent was shown on a display in the Voyager episode Scorpion.
This means that either:
1) It is a Borg ship
2) It is a ship familiar to the Borg
A third possibility, that the Rogue Borg had more than one of such a ship
and that the Borg re-assimilated it, exists but is far less likely, as we
saw no evidence of a second ship and no evidence that there were any other
Rogue Borg about.
At the time that we saw the ship 7 of 9 was considering the use of a
large-scale mine that would dispose of Species 8472. While this is
obviously not the mine itself, it clearly must be somehow related to her
search, which suggests that it either is used to deploy the mine or is in
some way related to the mine itself. Given these observations, I'd think
it's more than likely that the ship is some kind of Borg vessel. Any
thoughts?
--
Chuck
"Are you willing to die for stupidity? You see, I am, if it'll teach you
something." -187
Wayne Poe
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Admiral Korel wrote:
> >> What proof do you have that they have this many cubes, even the most
> >> generous estimates in favour of Trek (Satans speculation site aka the
> >> Daystrom Institute) only say in the millions although that is a bit hard
> >> to believe.
> Hmm... Part of me wants to say "Wayne Poe, right?".
Wrong. I don't spell "favor" the British, or Canadian way. And I may have
called Kennedy many things in the past, but "Satan" wasn't one of them!
BTW, for fun:
http://www.h4h.com/louis/borg.html
"I hope a mugger beats your family to death and a bird shits on you at the
funeral."
------Kynes to Elim
Admiral Korel
>on all six cylinders here?
Yes!
R Mercer
level is generally low, the flights of fancy often and there is entirely too
much flaming, etc., for my taste... from people who shouldn't have the gall
to flame people based upon some of the things I have seen/read. People are
too entrenched and have waaay too much ego tied up in something that
essentially means.... nothing. I don't mind discussing SW in an actual,
investigative... how does that work sense, but it rarely happens there.
Ryan McReynolds <rmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:zn9E4.896$64.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > <to the Warsies who get this: This is part of a followup to a post by
> > > "Weyoun the Dancing Borg" on r.a.s.t. regarding a discussion in
a.s.v.s.
> > > about a Borg-vs-Empire scenario. The original post is at the end. I
> wanted
> > > to add my own two cents. If this is a months-old thread or something,
or
> if
> > > crossposting bin verboten on your NG, my apologies. And forgive my
> ignorance
> > > about some matters Warsian; I've only seen the movies, I don't read
the
> > > books.>
> > >
> > > >oops:
> > >
> > > First off, /don't/ post binaries here. I'm sure you've heard they're
not
> > > allowed /at least/ once, it's repeated often enough. I'll have to
concur
> > > with Dwayne (and popular opinion around here, it would seem.)
> > >
> > > That said, I couldn't resist replying to /this/. I wonder if I should
> try
> > > lurking in st.vs.sw sometime... Graham, do you still hang out there?
> >
> > No, not for about two years now.
> >
> > > Is it worth my time?
> >
Jonathan Willis
> My first problem with your analysis: The empire is just the Old
> Republic now under new management. It annexed all of the OR's
> territory, resources, and fleet, as well as pumping in 25,000 Star
> Destroyers into the mix in as little as 25 years, as you've noted.
> Too, they built a Death Star in secret, which speaks of their massive
> economic advantage. Actually, they built around 5 death stars, but I
> won't dogmatically say they were all built secretly. So the Old
> Republic = The New Order in all but name and policies on personal
> freedom.
Official sources claim The New Order began a massive build up early in
Palpatines regime, and that the total number of ISDs is only 25,000. Now
given that they can build a DS, 25,000 ships cannot mean "massive" in a
sense of
using lots of their capacity, but must be "massive" in thats its a much
bigger fleet than the Republic fielded. Which makes sense when the
Republic hasn't
had a major military conflict in ages.
> The OR was around for at least 10,000 years. The Empire at it's
> height held sway over the entire Galaxy, which is slightly bigger than
> our own (120,000 lys across).
Its territory covered the Galaxy, and it laid claim to all of these
worlds. However the actual
extent of its control was much more limited - the galaxy has billions of
worlds, the Imperials only have millions of ships. Most "Imperial Space"
is actually unexplored
and unpatrolled. A Borg Cube could potentially assimilate dozens of
worlds before stumbling across
an Imperial ship. And even then the odds are it'd meet a smaller ship it
could easily handle,
although this would let the Empire know they exist.
> The problem I have with your technological advantages is that few of
> them would contribute to a military victory. It matters not WHAT kind
> of technology the Empire uses to construct it's fleet (replication,
> bolt by bolt construction, hydroponics, whatever) it only matters that
> they built 25,000 mile long starships in 20 years, along with five 120
> km diameter battle stations. Obviously, SW has power generation
> beyond simple fusion, else Alderaan would not have happened. (Hint:
> the DS would have to convert over 100% of its mass to energy to
> achieve the power witnessed there.) Calculations of TL power put them
> at between 20 megatons to 2 gigatons per shot, which is far more than
> the Federation's photon torpedo, which yields a maximum 64 MT. We
> know photon torpedoes en masse are effective against borg, even once
> adapted to. Since a SD can go 10-20 minutes trading shots with
> vessels with similar firepower (ala ROTJ) it's shielding mustbe able
> to cope with the aforementioned outputs.
These are questions of weapon/shield energy levels that still haven't
been answered in the NG. Between 20 MT and 2,000 MT isn't
necessarily far more than 64 MT, and this range is
only that argued for by Mike Wong, not a definitive answer.
How do we know that massed photon torpedos are effective against the
Borg? The only time Starfleet
defeated the Borg in a straight fight involved specialised knowledge,
plus new technologies designed to combat the Borg (Defiant, the
Sovereign incorporating Defiant design
aspects, probably others).
> Could I see your calculations on that? If that were true, then it
> would be roughly on par with SW speeds, but in my time at ASVS I have
> yet to see anything Trek match those speeds. The fastest SW speed
> that I am aware of is Darth Mauls trip from Coruscant to Tatooine
> which yields speeds in the 10-50 million times c range.
Accross (our) galaxy in 10 hours equates to 88 million c, so it outpaces
SW. I haven't yet seen the episode of Voyager he's talking about (last
of season 5 I think) but the Quantum Slipstream was going to get Voyager
home very quickly, so its speed must be much faster than Trek norm.
> We have no real concrete numbers here, unlike what SW has to go on.
> You can't say the borg built X ammount of starships in Y ammount of
> years. So what you go on is guesswork based on your gut feeling that
> the Borg are in fact better, which is not the greatest way to go about
> things, you must admit.
True, but they have assimilated a prepared military starship with
experience in fighting them, in less than 24 hours with only a handful
of drones. This gives us a lower limit of their assimilation
capabilities. Assimilation is a geometric progression, so even with a
handful
of drones, if each drone adds another drone every hour, within a month
you'll
have assimilated a planet even starting with only a handful of drones.
As too Borg industry, based on their regenerative capabilities (seen in
Q-Who to repair a torpedo blast the size of a GCS saucer in minutes)
they should
be able to turn out a new Cube in a couple of days given raw materials.
> How many cubes were said to be lost to S8742? The borg considered
> that a pretty big dent, did they not? I think that would be a pretty
> good indicator of what kind of losses they deem unacceptable.
They mentioned losing a few hundred to 7o9; how long a timeframe this
refers to is unspecified. If it means just the time while 7 was on
Voyager til then, thats only a day or two, and the conflict with S8472
was ongoing for an unknown length of time prior to Voyager entering Borg
space.
> Perhaps, but the evidence that the Borg control anything like an
> entire 120 ly galaxy is non existant. Again we are down to the "I
> thinks" which is where our little group has been mired in for the last
> year or so.
How many systems the Borg control is the crucial point, and its
something we have no evidence for. If they controlled every system
within a few thousand lightyears they would have millions of worlds, and
be
a match for the Empire. But we don't know exactly how big their space is
(Janeway called it "vast" which by Federation standards probably means
thousands of lightyears) or how densely packed.
> The Empire can generate large gravity masses as well. The black hole
> would not harm the ships, merely drop them out of warp, after which it
> would be noted in the Navcomps and avoided.
Black holes can destroy SW ships; see the Jedi Academy trilogy, where a
cluster of them are used to hide a research station. Imagine a couple
placed just outside of Coruscant; without trade the planet would starve
in a few weeks. This sort of "stellar minefield" could be very
effectively used
to guard Borg strongholds (warp drive can avoid such obstacles more
easily because of its slower
speed) and to cut of crucial Imperial worlds.
> >The obvious argument; the Borg can assimilate all the knowledge of the
> >Empire, or at least most of the combat-related stuff, after one battle.
>
> Assuming they win said battle.
No such assumption. As stated above, the Empire claims far more worlds
than they can patrol. All the Borg need to do is assimilate a few
unguarded colony worlds, somewhere like Bespin or Tatooine (Admiral
Ozzel, "there are so many uncharted settlements") and they will gain
much SW technology, and millions of drones.
> Pending your speed estimate above, I would say this is impossible.
> The borg are just too slow to conduct a successful invasion of
> Imperial space.
With transwarp speeds of a few million c (there is limited evidence they
have speeds of 1e12 c, but more conservatively) they can easily cover
the galaxy. Even with slower speeds, their ships are large and powerful
enough to withstand Imperial weapons, so they'd be a slow, unstoppable
march accross Imperial territory. At least until they assimilate
hyperdrive.
> The problem as I see it is that while I feel SW has some pretty
> impressive concrete numbers, there just aren't that many for ST.
> What's in the tech manuals is not very impressive, and much of the
> information for Borg and S8742 (probably the only race to give the
> Empire a run for its money IMO) is sketchy and contradictory. Then
> you have Voyager bitchslapping the Borg around so much it's looking
> like ANYbody can do it. So it boils down to both sides in sheer
> disbelief that the other side can't see that we're right, god dammit,
> are you blind?
The thing is, SW doesn't have concrete numbers, it just thinks it does.
Mike Wong has some good arguments for his numbers (around 1e21 J for ISD
shields/weapons), and as such his figures have become assumed to be true
for pro-SW fans. Personally I don't agree with him, and would put ISD
shields/weapons at around 1e18 J, while others argue for ISD
shields/weapons of 1e24 J or more. The only concrete evidence is the
asteroid destruction, putting a lower limit of around 1e16 J. All the
rest of Mike's arguments are based on some resonable but unproven
assumptions.
The numbers are actually much more concrete for ST, at least for a GCS -
1e17 J for torpedos (a 64 MT explosive is a simple energy calculation,
not much debate there) and shield/phaser energies plus or minus an order
of magnitude. For the Borg there is much less information, however here
is the crucial fact; the only attack to kill a Borg Cube without special
knowledge is S8472, which has near planet-killing firepower. So either
S8472 is unadaptable by the Borg (in which case we have no information
as to the upper limits of their shields) or beyond the energies the Borg
can handle (in which case Borg shielding is less than 1e35 J). Either
way, there is no evidence SW ships can penetrate adapted Borg shielding,
and the fact that the Borg can withstand a Federation fleet for several
days (even with Starfleet using some non-adaptable weapons) shows that a
Cube can take an ISD even using Mike Wongs numbers.
Timo S Saloniemi
>Not that I really want to get involved in this cross-posted debate, but I'd
>like to discuss this ship with anyone interested. We know the Borg ship
>seen in Descent was shown on a display in the Voyager episode Scorpion.
>This means that either:
>1) It is a Borg ship
>2) It is a ship familiar to the Borg
>A third possibility, that the Rogue Borg had more than one of such a ship
>and that the Borg re-assimilated it, exists but is far less likely, as we
>saw no evidence of a second ship and no evidence that there were any other
>Rogue Borg about.
>At the time that we saw the ship 7 of 9 was considering the use of a
>large-scale mine that would dispose of Species 8472. While this is
>obviously not the mine itself, it clearly must be somehow related to her
>search, which suggests that it either is used to deploy the mine or is in
>some way related to the mine itself. Given these observations, I'd think
>it's more than likely that the ship is some kind of Borg vessel. Any
>thoughts?
Perhaps the Collective managed to reabsorb some of the drones affected
by Hugh, and thus finally gathered intelligence on the whole "I,
Borg"/"Descent" affair. That intelligence would have been relevant
to studies on how to act in an unborgly manner - Seven could simply
have been trying to learn to think independently, and would study the way
the Hughites had constructed their "indie" ship by reviewing the mental
records of a re-assimilee.
Or then the reassimilation of the Hughified drones had presented
difficulties roughly similar to those related to assimilating Species
8472. Possibly the Hughites had constructed another ship and tried to
combat the Collective (before, after or during "Descent"), and
either the Collective had employed a mine to dispose of this ship,
or the ship had deployed a mine to heed off the Collective? In any
case, Seven could have felt that the only threat against the
Collective even remotely comparable to the 8472 would be the past
threat from fellow Borg (who else would the arrogant Collective accept
as a worthy enemy but a mirror image of itself?), and thus all
aspects of that threat should be studied.
Timo Saloniemi
Graeme Dice
>
> Aron Kerkhof wrote:
>
> Official sources claim The New Order began a massive build up early in
> Palpatines regime, and that the total number of ISDs is only 25,000. Now
> given that they can build a DS, 25,000 ships cannot mean "massive" in a
> sense of
> using lots of their capacity, but must be "massive" in thats its a much
> bigger fleet than the Republic fielded. Which makes sense when the
> Republic hasn't
> had a major military conflict in ages.
And yet, there are still billions of ships in the SW galaxy. See
Thelea's analysis.
> Its territory covered the Galaxy, and it laid claim to all of these
> worlds. However the actual
> extent of its control was much more limited - the galaxy has billions of
> worlds, the Imperials only have millions of ships. Most "Imperial Space"
> is actually unexplored
> and unpatrolled.
The entire galaxy has been mapped, and even if it hasn't, a very
reasonable number of probe droids could complete the task in under three
months. This is mapping _every_ single cubic lightyear of the entire
galaxy as well.
>A Borg Cube could potentially assimilate dozens of
> worlds before stumbling across
> an Imperial ship. And even then the odds are it'd meet a smaller ship it
> could easily handle,
> although this would let the Empire know they exist.
The first world it met would send out a distress call, which would be
received instantly across the entire galaxy.
> These are questions of weapon/shield energy levels that still haven't
> been answered in the NG. Between 20 MT and 2,000 MT isn't
> necessarily far more than 64 MT, and this range is
> only that argued for by Mike Wong, not a definitive answer.
They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
arisen. In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute lower
limits for SW. I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
canon information directly from the movies.
>
> How do we know that massed photon torpedos are effective against the
> Borg? The only time Starfleet
> defeated the Borg in a straight fight involved specialised knowledge,
> plus new technologies designed to combat the Borg (Defiant, the
> Sovereign incorporating Defiant design
> aspects, probably others).
Probably others does not mean they exist. The specialized knowledge was
nothing more than the basic military tactic of concentrating your fire
on a visible hole in the side of the ship. Hardly anything special.
> Accross (our) galaxy in 10 hours equates to 88 million c, so it outpaces
> SW. I haven't yet seen the episode of Voyager he's talking about (last
> of season 5 I think) but the Quantum Slipstream was going to get Voyager
> home very quickly, so its speed must be much faster than Trek norm.
It is still slower than Darth Maul's Infiltrator travelled to Tatooine,
even with the most inflated numbers possible.
> True, but they have assimilated a prepared military starship with
> experience in fighting them, in less than 24 hours with only a handful
> of drones. This gives us a lower limit of their assimilation
> capabilities. Assimilation is a geometric progression, so even with a
> handful
> of drones, if each drone adds another drone every hour, within a month
> you'll
> have assimilated a planet even starting with only a handful of drones.
Unless you burn all life off the planet from orbit. That would be the
most efficient way to dispose of the borg, remove their logistical
capabilities.
>
> As too Borg industry, based on their regenerative capabilities (seen in
> Q-Who to repair a torpedo blast the size of a GCS saucer in minutes)
> they should
> be able to turn out a new Cube in a couple of days given raw materials.
And yet, somehow, they have not managed to do anything but take over a
rather small area of a single galaxy. This does not point to rapid
shipbuilding.
> They mentioned losing a few hundred to 7o9; how long a timeframe this
> refers to is unspecified. If it means just the time while 7 was on
> Voyager til then, thats only a day or two, and the conflict with S8472
> was ongoing for an unknown length of time prior to Voyager entering Borg
> space.
That they were worried about a loss of a few hundred cubes points to
this being a large proportion of their fleet.
> How many systems the Borg control is the crucial point, and its
> something we have no evidence for. If they controlled every system
> within a few thousand lightyears they would have millions of worlds, and
> be
> a match for the Empire. But we don't know exactly how big their space is
> (Janeway called it "vast" which by Federation standards probably means
> thousands of lightyears) or how densely packed.
If they controlled that many worlds, then they would have already taken
over the Milky Way, hence they don't have that many worlds.
> Black holes can destroy SW ships; see the Jedi Academy trilogy, where a
> cluster of them are used to hide a research station.
The maw is a cluster of at least 12 black holes, situated so that there
is about one safe path through the cluster.
> Imagine a couple
> placed just outside of Coruscant; without trade the planet would starve
> in a few weeks. This sort of "stellar minefield" could be very
> effectively used
> to guard Borg strongholds (warp drive can avoid such obstacles more
> easily because of its slower
> speed) and to cut of crucial Imperial worlds.
A black hole is no more dangerous than its mass. If you replaced our
sun with a black hole of the same mass, the Earth would maintain exactly
the same orbit. Those would have to be awfully massive black holes to
disrupt traffic over an entire solar system. When the SW ships detected
themselves approaching a stellar mass, their hyperdrives would disengage
at the standard distance. Unless they were foolish enough to approach
the event horizon, they would be perfectly safe.
> No such assumption. As stated above, the Empire claims far more worlds
> than they can patrol. All the Borg need to do is assimilate a few
> unguarded colony worlds, somewhere like Bespin or Tatooine (Admiral
> Ozzel, "there are so many uncharted settlements") and they will gain
> much SW technology, and millions of drones.
And will promptly be set upon by an Imperial fleet, when the distress
signal is sent over the hypernet. The Empire must patrol the majority
of its worlds, or they could not rule by fear.
> With transwarp speeds of a few million c (there is limited evidence they
> have speeds of 1e12 c, but more conservatively) they can easily cover
> the galaxy. Even with slower speeds, their ships are large and powerful
> enough to withstand Imperial weapons, so they'd be a slow, unstoppable
> march accross Imperial territory. At least until they assimilate
> hyperdrive.
They are perfectly stoppable, especially since they would send a single
cube, which could easily be destroyed. When they sent more later,
simply destroy the cubes you meet, and sterilize their planets.
> The thing is, SW doesn't have concrete numbers, it just thinks it does.
> Mike Wong has some good arguments for his numbers (around 1e21 J for ISD
> shields/weapons), and as such his figures have become assumed to be true
> for pro-SW fans. Personally I don't agree with him, and would put ISD
> shields/weapons at around 1e18 J, while others argue for ISD
> shields/weapons of 1e24 J or more. The only concrete evidence is the
> asteroid destruction, putting a lower limit of around 1e16 J. All the
> rest of Mike's arguments are based on some resonable but unproven
> assumptions.
Such as? I would appreciate examples here, as the numbers we use here
are on the extreme low side of those that are possible for SW.
>
> The numbers are actually much more concrete for ST, at least for a GCS -
> 1e17 J for torpedos (a 64 MT explosive is a simple energy calculation,
> not much debate there) and shield/phaser energies plus or minus an order
> of magnitude.
Of you want to use the concrete information for ST, then phasers are
1.02 GW. Anything else is not concrete.
> For the Borg there is much less information, however here
> is the crucial fact; the only attack to kill a Borg Cube without special
> knowledge is S8472, which has near planet-killing firepower. So either
> S8472 is unadaptable by the Borg (in which case we have no information
> as to the upper limits of their shields) or beyond the energies the Borg
> can handle (in which case Borg shielding is less than 1e35 J)
Where does this number come from? A planet can be destroyed with 4
orders of magnitude less firepower than that. We also have never seen
the combined beam firing on a borg.
> Either
> way, there is no evidence SW ships can penetrate adapted Borg shielding,
> and the fact that the Borg can withstand a Federation fleet for several
> days (even with Starfleet using some non-adaptable weapons) shows that a
> Cube can take an ISD even using Mike Wongs numbers.
There is plenty of evidence. See Mike January's page for the amount of
energy needed to destroy a fully-adapted cube. (Unless of course you
think they weren't able to adapt to rocks flying at them, in which case,
the drones can be mowed down by modern armies.) A cube can be taken out
by 1.5 broadsides of an ISD, and using very low estimates for SW ISD
firepower, a galaxy class starship can be destroyed in less than a
microsecond of a single broadside.
Graeme Dice
--
How to know if your an internet junkie %16 -
You check your E-Mail. it sais 'No new messages', so you
check it again.
Scottty
[snip - responding only to one point]
>They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
>arisen. In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute lower
>limits for SW. I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
>Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
>canon information directly from the movies.
If all ISD's could blow up planets, then...
WHY THE HECK WOULD THEY NEED TO BUILD A #$@% DEATHSTAR????
Wong and co seem so eager to make up big numbers and impressive
claims, they seem blind to some of the most obvious things in the very
genre they argue for.
Come on, dude.. the WHOLE POINT about the DS type ships was that they
had firepower way over and beyond any of the Empire's "conventional"
ships.
The Death Star was supposed to be the Big Scary Superweapon. Normal
Imp ships were nowhere as powerful. In the battle in RoTJ, we see Imp
and Rebel capships slugging it out, battering each other to death with
continuous firing, whereas the DS could (and did) destroy a Rebel
capship with a single shot.
Acording to Han Solo, the ENTIRE FLEET could not do to a planet when
the DS did to Alderaan.
And now for the less intelligent:
Perhaps you get idea if me put in simple words.
Deathstar BIG!
DeathStar so powerful can blow up planet!
Blowing up planet = HEAP BIG firepower!
DeathStar make ISD look puny!
ISD not able blow up planet!
ISD not even able blow up other ships.
ISD must shoot, shoot, shoot for long time before other ship blow up.
Deathstar need only shoot once.
Got that? :-)
[more snip]
Commander Thelea
>WHY THE HECK WOULD THEY NEED TO BUILD A #$@% DEATHSTAR????
They can't. I'll freely admit that. If you were to use the
Ddonna Calcs and apply them to 25,000 ISDs ONLY, the COULD,
though, albeit it destroy a planet over a period of hours
instead of 3/10ths of a second.
That is why the Imperial fleet must be FAR greater in numbers.
Ddonna said that the Death Star had half the firepower of the
Imperial Fleet. Hence; Half of the Imperial fleet could destroy
a planet in 3/10ths of a second.
>Wong and co seem so eager to make up big numbers and impressive
>claims, they seem blind to some of the most obvious things in
>the very genre they argue for.
>Come on, dude.. the WHOLE POINT about the DS type ships was
>that they had firepower way over and beyond any of the
>Empire's "conventional"
>ships.
Of course. It takes thousands up thousands of times more
firepower to destroy a planet in 3/10ths of a second instead of
several hours. Even then, though, what Graeme is trying to say
is that the Imperial fleet must be awesomely huge or, logically,
any Imperial ship can destroy a planet. Since they do not do
this, one must concluded that the Imperial fleet is in the
hundreds of millions of ships like I have calculated.
>The Death Star was supposed to be the Big Scary Superweapon.
>Normal Imp ships were nowhere as powerful. In the battle in
>RoTJ, we see Imp and Rebel capships slugging it out, battering
>each other to death with continuous firing, whereas the DS
>could (and did) destroy a Rebel capship with a single shot.
Of course, though, again, Destroying a planet over a matter of
hours and 3/10ths of a second allows that major difference in
ability, though still I agree that ISDs cannot break planets
apart... Only completely melt them, and then they'd still cool
back down.. Eventually. And retain shape the entire time.
>Acording to Han Solo, the ENTIRE FLEET could not do to a planet
>when the DS did to Alderaan.
No. He said "A thousand ships with more firepower than he'd
seen". It was a rough guess that one thousand ships with more
firepower than he had seen in his life could destroy a planet.
That does NOT mean that one million ships with firepower he had
seen could not destroy the planet. Clearly, some 160,000,000
Imperial ships, firing one broadside, would do the same damage
as the Death Star's Superlaser in one shot, and would be
superiour as they could fire every two seconds instead of once
every 8 hours.. However, if half the Imperial fleet was in one
system, half the galaxy would fall to the Rebels, most likely.
Hence the need for the Death Star.. Concentrated firepower.
< snip >
Marina O'Leary
Generic Star Wars Fan
no
wait sorry, what am I saying
of course your right
just ignore this.
I would press "cancel" but I cant be bothered.
--
I CAN HEAR PIXIES TALKING TO ME. AND LEPRECHAUNS AND GOBLINS AND SOMETIMES
EVEN ESKIMOS.
Aron Kerkhof <aronk@-spamerific-galactec.com> wrote in message
news:yQzhOEOyR1eHyLPO7w=amUA...@4ax.com...
Generic Star Wars Fan
your site is amazing, and your a teacher and I wouldn't do anythign to you.
that isnt saarcasm btw.
seriously, email me your reply pleas.
--
I CAN HEAR PIXIES TALKING TO ME. AND LEPRECHAUNS AND GOBLINS AND SOMETIMES
EVEN ESKIMOS.
Graham Kennedy <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38E0EFD2...@adeadend.demon.co.uk...
> Ryan McReynolds wrote:
> >
> > This forum is utterly inappropriate for your post to begin with. Nobody
> > challenged you findings because (hopefully) they were all smart enough
to
> > know that that conversation shouldn't happen here to begin with. Please
> > show further restraint in the future in choosing the appropriate
newsgroup
> > for your message, and use a link to your graphic, especially if it's
over
> > 100K. Thanks.
>
> Well I was going to email him a reply since he specifically
> asked my opinion. But seeing his next reply to your post,
> I'm glad I didn't bother.
>
> --
>
> Graham Kennedy
>
>
Generic Star Wars Fan
the helm...
--
I CAN HEAR PIXIES TALKING TO ME. AND LEPRECHAUNS AND GOBLINS AND SOMETIMES
EVEN ESKIMOS.
Dwayne Allen Day <wayn...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:1C6E4.325$D8....@grover.nit.gwu.edu...
> Graham Kennedy <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> : Well I was going to email him a reply since he specifically
> : asked my opinion. But seeing his next reply to your post,
> : I'm glad I didn't bother.
>
> Yeah. Anybody get the feeling that we're dealing with someone not running
> on all six cylinders here?
>
>
> DDAY
Generic Star Wars Fan
300 000 Star Destoryers or somthign like that.
and that theat would beat the borg
I tried to explain it was against a death star and not the entire fleet, but
it spiraled into chaos, so I have left the debate now.
--
I CAN HEAR PIXIES TALKING TO ME. AND LEPRECHAUNS AND GOBLINS AND SOMETIMES
EVEN ESKIMOS.
Graham Kennedy <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38E11A1B...@adeadend.demon.co.uk...
> Admiral Korel wrote:
> >
> > <to the Warsies who get this: This is part of a followup to a post by
> > "Weyoun the Dancing Borg" on r.a.s.t. regarding a discussion in a.s.v.s.
> > about a Borg-vs-Empire scenario. The original post is at the end. I
wanted
> > to add my own two cents. If this is a months-old thread or something, or
if
> > crossposting bin verboten on your NG, my apologies. And forgive my
ignorance
> > about some matters Warsian; I've only seen the movies, I don't read the
> > books.>
> >
> > >oops:
> >
> > First off, /don't/ post binaries here. I'm sure you've heard they're not
> > allowed /at least/ once, it's repeated often enough. I'll have to concur
> > with Dwayne (and popular opinion around here, it would seem.)
> >
> > That said, I couldn't resist replying to /this/. I wonder if I should
try
> > lurking in st.vs.sw sometime... Graham, do you still hang out there?
>
> No, not for about two years now.
>
> > Is it worth my time?
>
> No. It isn't worth anybodies time, IMHO.
>
> --
>
> Graham Kennedy
Scottty
>our galaxy is no 120000 ly accress. It is more ythan that tisnt it?
>no
>wait sorry, what am I saying
>of course your right
100 000 ly across is the figure I've always been told.
( one hundred thousand lightyears)
that, of course, is across the disk. Not sure what the maximum
distance from the "top" of the nucleus to the "bottom" is..
( the galaxy is shaped a bit like the saucer section of the
Enterprise-A) :-)
Though there is not actual "edge".. the stars and interstellar matter
(dust, gas, etc) just get more and more thinly spread.
By contrast, the Andromeda galaxy (about the same size) is around 2
million ly away - 20 times the width of the Milky Way galaxy.
Commander Thelea
tisnt it?
>
>>no
>
>>wait sorry, what am I saying
>
>>of course your right
>
>( one hundred thousand lightyears)
>that, of course, is across the disk. Not sure what the maximum
>distance from the "top" of the nucleus to the "bottom" is..
>( the galaxy is shaped a bit like the saucer section of the
>Enterprise-A) :-)
>
>Though there is not actual "edge".. the stars and interstellar
matter
>(dust, gas, etc) just get more and more thinly spread.
>
>By contrast, the Andromeda galaxy (about the same size) is
around 2
>million ly away - 20 times the width of the Milky Way galaxy.
>
>
>
This galaxy, the Milky Way Galaxy, is 100,000 lightyears across.
The Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 lightyears across.
Aron Kerkhof
wrote:
>Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
>
>[snip - responding only to one point]
>
>>They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
>>arisen. In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute lower
>>limits for SW. I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
>>Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
>>canon information directly from the movies.
>
>If all ISD's could blow up planets, then...
>WHY THE HECK WOULD THEY NEED TO BUILD A #$@% DEATHSTAR????
Muahahaha! Haven't been in our little neighborhood before, have you?
They built a Death Star BECAUSE THEIR SHIELD TECHNOLOGY IS SO ADVANCED
THAT THEY CAN WRAP AN ENTIRE PLANET IN A SHIELD SO POWERFUL AS TO
INVALIDATE ANY CONVENTIONAL BOMBARDMENT. That's where the Death
Star's 1E38 J come in handy. Now, that we've got that covered, let's
all stop shouting.
>Wong and co seem so eager to make up big numbers and impressive
>claims,
Yet they seem to use the LOWER limits far more often than quoting the
inflated upper limits they have access to. I point out that this is
the exact opposite that Trek does, bandying about upper limits of
weapons and power outputs casually assuming 100% efficiency and other
nonsense. But hey... whatever floats your boat.
>they seem blind to some of the most obvious things in the very
>genre they argue for.
>Come on, dude.. the WHOLE POINT about the DS type ships was that they
>had firepower way over and beyond any of the Empire's "conventional"
>ships.
Semi-true. The death star did carry amazing firepower, yet it only
had little greater than half the starfleets. So somewhere around
12,500 ISD's could duplicate the Death Star's efforts, if all their
weapons systems were combined. That's scary stuff.
>The Death Star was supposed to be the Big Scary Superweapon. Normal
>Imp ships were nowhere as powerful. In the battle in RoTJ, we see Imp
>and Rebel capships slugging it out, battering each other to death with
>continuous firing, whereas the DS could (and did) destroy a Rebel
>capship with a single shot.
I don't see what your point is...
>Acording to Han Solo, the ENTIRE FLEET could not do to a planet when
>the DS did to Alderaan.
Yet General Dodonn -- a a guy who actually did know what the hell he
was talking about -- after carefully considering the Death Star Plans,
said that the death star was only half as powerful as the entire
starfleet.
>And now for the less intelligent:
Please.
[snip]
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
George Recker Jr
found in both galaxies. The Star Trek galaxy is a Kardashev Level II plus
civilization, with regions of the galaxy under control of one or more powers,
with innumerable Level I civilizations spread throughout. This is the level
that the Star Wars galaxy was at 25,000 years ago, around the time of the
advent of the early hyperdrives. They are now a Level III civilization,
controlling nearly every part of the galaxy, with the ability to control levels
of power that a Level II civilization would consider impossible. One of the
other posters was right about the SW galaxy. They have invented nearly
everything that can be, so there is very little innovation, just improving on
the old technology. Their civilization has brought just about every one of
their technologies to the consumer level. Look how long it took us to bring the
microwave to market from the time it was invented. The closest that the ST
galaxy has to this is the microfusion generator and the replicator, and that is
only in certain areas. Given another 25 millennia to innovate, there's no
telling where the ST galaxy races could be. They could be exploring parallel
realities like they now explore space, or they could be doing things that can't
even be imagined yet.
Aron Kerkhof
<mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> My own calculations, based purely on official information and
>> supported by the Ddonna Calcs and one of Tarkin's statements
>> during ANH indicate that the empire employs over Two Million
>> ISDs,
>
>All General Dodonna says is that the DS I has a firepower "Greater than
>half the starfleet". How does that equate to millions of ISDs? And just
>what did Tarkin say during ANH that indicates a that there are millions of
>ISDs, or other Imperial captial ships? The only thing I can recall is
>Admiral Motti, and General Tagge's arguement. But that was Motti taunting
>Tagge that the Rebels were "Dangerous to your starfleet, not to this
>battlestation!".
In the novelization of ANH Tarkin states something to the effect that
the Death Star would give them firm control over the "million worlds
or the Empire."
Logically, you'd need at LEAST 1 ship per world to expect to have
control over anything, and probably much more so. Thela's analysis is
now attached to this thread I believe.
>> The Empire has lasted for 25,000.. The same length as the
>> Republic, because the Empire IS the Republic.
>
>Although it should be pointed out that the Republic apparently never
>undertook such a massive shipbuilding program, and certainly as far as we
>know, never produced anything like the Death Stars or SSDs in size. Luke,
>Ben, and Han's reactions to seeing the DS I for the first time certainly
>indicate that nothing like them was ever built before.
That's true, but they did have a signifigant starfleet. Dreadnaughts
were not that much smaller than ISD's, and still to the present pose a
threat to such vessels. Victory Star Destroyers were actually
conceived and built under the OR, so their starfleet was nothing to
sneeze at. Actually, I think the next two episodes of SW will put all
these questions to rest.
>So Duplicators equal replicators? Can you describe how a duplicator works
>in comparison to the transporter-based technology of the ST replicator?
Why would that be relevant? The known example of "duplicator tech"
working would be a World Devastator and their smaller, more civil
minded Construction droid brothers. Raw matter goes in, completed
product spits out.
>> Phasers are particle beams that contain an unknown particle
>> that induces the NDF effect in the target, which becames less
>> effective the more heavily armoured the ship is; They'd be
>> virtually useless against the heavy Imperial capital ships
>> (Except Defiant style Pulse Phasers), though they'd easily rip
>> through dozens of fighters.
>
>Ah another alumni of Mike Wong's! Actually there are many cases,
>especially during the Dominion War of phasers destroying/vaporizing huge
>chunks of armor and hull out of various starships in the major fleet
>actions.
Great! As I've always said before, it would be so swell to see
someone collect this evidence on some website and post their
calculations so we can lay this matter to rest once and for all. No
one has done it so far.
Heck, I even donated web space to Ryan McR (he's over there, isn't he?
Hi Ryan!) because I was so impressed with the star of his Trek
analysis site, but unfortunately, he halted development on it. :-(
>There is also the matter of how much things like SIF fields play
>into the equation of how difficult it is to destroy the hull of an ST
>ship. Presumably SW has something similar, or we'd see scenes of the DS
>squash unceremoniously like a deflating balloon. All of these are factors
>that must be taken into account when describing the effects we see on ST
>and SW ships when they are shown being damaged on-screen.
Fortunately, asteroids have no such SIF technology, so no matter what,
ESB stands to this very day as a fairly concrete lower limit of SW
weapons tech.
>> The Empire does NOT use Fusion Power as we think of it; The
>> Death Star, it is clearly stated to have a Hypermatter Reactor,
>> NOT a fusion reactor.
>> An ISD does not have a Fusion reactor, either. It just uses a
>> reactor "As Powerful as a miniature sun". Might I also remind
>> everyone that even if you want to interpet it as BEING a
>> miniature sun.. A Black Hole is technically a miniature sun, and
>> fits the power requirements of an ISD, while normal fusion could
>> NEVER provide the energy for the Two Gigaton Plasma shots we
>> know ISDs can fire thanks to ESB and the asteroid calcs.
>
>Romulan Warbirds use quantum singularities (black holes) to power their
>warp cores, and can pulverize nearly a billion cubic meters of rock, and
>at least melting some that to fuse the mass together within a three second
>period of time. That also requires multi-gigaton level firepower, and we
>don't know that's the upper limit of a D'Deridex's firepower either.
Ah, a disciple of Kennedy. :-) Suffice to say, there is zero
evidence that the warbird actually pulverized the rock ('Pegasus',
right?) or melted a signifigant quantity of it. Too, how wide do you
think that hole was, anyway?
>> >/conservative/ galaxy-crossing times in the range of ten hours,
>> >and the Borg assimilated it...)
>>
>> Actually, it was CLEARLY stated that it would take six months
>> for Quantum Slipstream drive to cross the Galaxy.
>
>Wrong there. It was stated in the faked message that the journey would
>take 3 months. However, when Arturis kidnaps Janeway and Seven, he states
>that it will take only "A few hours" to travel back along the nearly 1,000
>LY (conservative) distance to Borg space. That means that it would only
>take a matter of a couple weeks at most for the Dauntless to travel across
>the Milky Way galaxy! The Quantum Slipstream drive used in "Timeless" was
>considerably faster than this, or any SW hyperspace. Travelling the 60,000
>LY distance within a few minutes time, or about 500,000,000 times c!
Since I am ignorant of the source here, could you enlighten me about
the circumstances/dialog that brought you to this conclusion.
>We do know by the time of the 29th century in the ST universe, that
>Federation vessels will have the capability to travel not only anywhere
>in the Milky Way galaxy they want to in scant minutes, but travel back na
>d forth in time with near impunity as witnessed in "Future's End", and
>"Relativity". If the SW tech is head of ST in some areas, it's not more
>than a few centuries at best.
Yes, and right about now, we should be overrun with Khan and his
bioengineered soldiers. The future... it's always changing. The
point is that if SW met up with most known ST conventional races RIGHT
NOW, they would have the edge.
Anyway, I didn't want to step on Marina's thead this much... so I'll
exit, stage left.
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
Matthew Hyde
In alt.startrek.vs.starwars Scottty <sco...@KILL-SPAM.nis.za> wrote:
> Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
> [snip - responding only to one point]
> >They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
> >arisen. In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute lower
> >limits for SW. I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
> >Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
> >canon information directly from the movies.
> If all ISD's could blow up planets,
Yes it's true, BDZ blows the planet inside out!
then...
> WHY THE HECK WOULD THEY NEED TO BUILD A #$@% DEATHSTAR????
So the ISDs can be used in their role as warships?
> Wong and co seem so eager to make up big numbers and impressive
> claims, they seem blind to some of the most obvious things in the very
> genre they argue for.
> Come on, dude.. the WHOLE POINT about the DS type ships was that they
> had firepower way over and beyond any of the Empire's "conventional"
> ships.
Nuh uh.
> The Death Star was supposed to be the Big Scary Superweapon. Normal
> Imp ships were nowhere as powerful. In the battle in RoTJ, we see Imp
> and Rebel capships slugging it out, battering each other to death with
> continuous firing, whereas the DS could (and did) destroy a Rebel
> capship with a single shot.
> Acording to Han Solo, the ENTIRE FLEET could not do to a planet when
> the DS did to Alderaan.
> And now for the less intelligent:
> Perhaps you get idea if me put in simple words.
> Deathstar BIG!
> DeathStar so powerful can blow up planet!
> Blowing up planet = HEAP BIG firepower!
> DeathStar make ISD look puny!
> ISD not able blow up planet!
> ISD not even able blow up other ships.
> ISD must shoot, shoot, shoot for long time before other ship blow up.
> Deathstar need only shoot once.
> Got that? :-)
Thank you for your contribution. Please drive through.
--
Obviously, the president has never been captured by super-intelligent
apes, or he'd feel differently about the importance of guns.
Matt Hyde, math lab consultant
Michigan Tech math sciences
http://www.mathlab.mtu.edu/~mdoughy
Matthew Hyde
In alt.startrek.vs.starwars Generic Star Wars Fan <wey...@btinternet.com.DESPAM> wrote:
> our galaxy is no 120000 ly accress. It is more ythan that tisnt it?
> no
> wait sorry, what am I saying
> of course your right
> just ignore this.
> I would press "cancel" but I cant be bothered.
Dude, what are you ON!
And where can I get some?
Matthew Hyde
> >our galaxy is no 120000 ly accress. It is more ythan that tisnt it?
> >no
> >wait sorry, what am I saying
> >of course your right
> 100 000 ly across is the figure I've always been told.
> ( one hundred thousand lightyears)
> that, of course, is across the disk. Not sure what the maximum
> distance from the "top" of the nucleus to the "bottom" is..
> ( the galaxy is shaped a bit like the saucer section of the
> Enterprise-A) :-)
And they say Trek wasn't prophetic!
Mike Dicenso
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Graeme Dice wrote:
> > bigger fleet than the Republic fielded. Which makes sense when the >
> Republic hasn't > had a major military conflict in ages.
>
> And yet, there are still billions of ships in the SW galaxy. See
> Thelea's analysis.
Billions? The analysis is based on a vauge at best statement by General
Dodonna during the briefing session! Yet we know that during Vader's
search for Luke Skywalker and the Rebels, only five ISDs and one SSD
supplemented by probe droids could be spared to go looking for them.
Further evidence from Mon Motha's briefing in RoTJ empatically stated that
the imperial fleet was "spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to
engadge us". This does not sound like there are billions of ISDs or
Imperial ships as a whole if they can be spread thinly like that.
> > Its territory covered the Galaxy, and it laid claim to all of these
> > worlds. However the actual > extent of its control was much more
> limited - the galaxy has billions of > worlds, the Imperials only have
> millions of ships. Most "Imperial Space" > is actually unexplored >
> and unpatrolled.
>
> The entire galaxy has been mapped, and even if it hasn't, a very
> reasonable number of probe droids could complete the task in under
> three months. This is mapping _every_ single cubic lightyear of the
> entire galaxy as well.
They did not. We have no evidence that "thousands of probe droids" were
able to do that what so ever. The one probe we did see on Hoth was planet
bound, and did not do anything that resembled a major survey of the entire
Hoth system, much less an area of one cubic LY around said system.
> >A Borg Cube could potentially assimilate dozens of > worlds before
> stumbling across > an Imperial ship. And even then the odds are it'd
> meet a smaller ship it > could easily handle, > although this would
> let the Empire know they exist.
> The first world it met would send out a distress call, which would be
> received instantly across the entire galaxy.
The book, "The Truce At Bakura" would seem to disagree with this
notion. It indicates that months or even years could go by before the rest
of the galaxy's remotest parts heard about Palpatine's downfall. On top of
that Bakura was largely undefended, and the Empire was ill prepared to
deal with any significant threat by the Ssi'ruk, or anyone else. Even if
the message was instantaneous, the response would not be there there in
less than a day to deal with the threat.
> for by Mike Wong, not a definitive answer.
>
> They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
> arisen. In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute
> lower limits for SW. I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
> Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
> canon information directly from the movies.
No this is not the case. Much of the multi-gigaton estimates come from
Base Delta Zero assumptions about an ISD being able to "slag" a planet's
surface. Photon torpdoes having a 64 MT upper limit is based solely on the
assumption that TNG TM is correct about the amount of AM/M used in
warhead. Yet we know from VGR's "Scorpion Pt. II", a torp has an explosive
yield of 200 isotons, and a Borg gravitic mine has 5 million. The latter
photon torp number is roughly 8 times higher than the 25 isoton number
given in the highly flawed DS9 TM. Whatever the limit, we know that from
DS9's "Valiant", that a photon torpedo warhead can be increased in size
beyond the normal limits by removing some of the automated guidence
hardware, and other equipment, and guiding the torpedo in manually to it's
target. Need a gigaton from each torp to attack the large, slow moving
ships like a Borg cube, or the Empire's ISDs? No problem, load 20 kg of
antimatter and matter into the warhead, there's plenty enough room those
casings.
> fight involved specialised knowledge, > plus new technologies designed
> to combat the Borg (Defiant, the > Sovereign incorporating Defiant
> design > aspects, probably others).
>
> Probably others does not mean they exist. The specialized knowledge was
> nothing more than the basic military tactic of concentrating your fire
> on a visible hole in the side of the ship. Hardly anything special.
Really? Before the fleet opened fire on the spot designated, there seemed
to be no significant damage in that area. The hole only appeared, and
opened up as the fleet fired on that spot.
> > Accross (our) galaxy in 10 hours equates to 88 million c, so it
> outpaces > SW. I haven't yet seen the episode of Voyager he's talking
> about (last > of season 5 I think) but the Quantum Slipstream was
> going to get Voyager > home very quickly, so its speed must be much
> faster than Trek norm.
>
> It is still slower than Darth Maul's Infiltrator travelled to Tatooine,
> even with the most inflated numbers possible.
The 10 hour number is actually a lower limit! In VGR's "Timeless",
Voyager using the quantum slipstream drive obtained in "Hope and
Fear" travelled back to the outer edges of the Alpha quadrent in less than
five *minutes*. If you want to use One Time Wonders (tm) for SW, then ST
gets to use some of it's own. Take for example the E-D travelling
2,700,000 LY in "Where No One Has Gone Before" in only a minute thanks to
the Traveller. Or V'Ger's exploration of the ENTIRE universe in less than
300 years as per ST:TMP!
> > handful > of drones, if each drone adds another drone every hour,
> within a month > you'll > have assimilated a planet even starting with
> only a handful of drones.
>
> Unless you burn all life off the planet from orbit. That would be the
> most efficient way to dispose of the borg, remove their logistical
> capabilities.
Again, as per "Truce At Bakura", it was'nt done by Imperial forces to deny
a powerful new enemy the Bakura system a foothold, and it's not very
likely to be done if the Borg invade. At least in the initial stages of a
Borg invasion.
> > As too Borg industry, based on their regenerative capabilities (seen
> in > Q-Who to repair a torpedo blast the size of a GCS saucer in
> minutes) > they should > be able to turn out a new Cube in a couple of
> days given raw materials.
>
> And yet, somehow, they have not managed to do anything but take over a
> rather small area of a single galaxy. This does not point to rapid
> shipbuilding.
A section of the galaxy roughly 10,000 ly wide, possibly more? The Borg
were stated by both Q and Guinan to be a patient, and methodical
entity. The Borg have a galactic influence that spans at least 3 of the
four known quadrents in the Milky Way galaxy!
> > They mentioned losing a few hundred to 7o9; how long a timeframe
> this > refers to is unspecified. If it means just the time while 7 was
> on > Voyager til then, thats only a day or two, and the conflict with
> S8472 > was ongoing for an unknown length of time prior to Voyager
> entering Borg > space.
>
> That they were worried about a loss of a few hundred cubes points to
> this being a large proportion of their fleet.
So? After at least a month, or more of constant fighting with S8472. Need
we aslo remind you that the New Republic was very worried about Admiral
Thrawn getting ahold of the 200 Katana fleet dreadnaughts in HTE?
> and > be > a match for the Empire. But we don't know exactly how big
> their space is > (Janeway called it "vast" which by Federation
> standards probably means > thousands of lightyears) or how densely
> packed.
>
> If they controlled that many worlds, then they would have already
> taken over the Milky Way, hence they don't have that many worlds.
That's highly circular logic at best. Not taking over the entire galaxy is
not indicative of the number of planets that may, or may not exist is an
area that is at least 10,000 ly wide.
> > Black holes can destroy SW ships; see the Jedi Academy trilogy,
> where a > cluster of them are used to hide a research station.
>
> The maw is a cluster of at least 12 black holes, situated so that
> there is about one safe path through the cluster.
Which does nothing to invalidate his point, if anything, it reinforces it.
> > No such assumption. As stated above, the Empire claims far more worlds
> > than they can patrol. All the Borg need to do is assimilate a few
> > unguarded colony worlds, somewhere like Bespin or Tatooine (Admiral
> > Ozzel, "there are so many uncharted settlements") and they will gain
> > much SW technology, and millions of drones.
>
> And will promptly be set upon by an Imperial fleet, when the distress
> signal is sent over the hypernet. The Empire must patrol the majority
> of its worlds, or they could not rule by fear.
But by the time they respond to such a remote location, such as Bakura, it
would be too late. The populations would be assimilated, or well on their
way, and the knowledge of SW technology, and the SW galaxy will be taken
by the Borg. His point still stands.
> > With transwarp speeds of a few million c (there is limited evidence
> they > have speeds of 1e12 c, but more conservatively) they can easily
> cover > the galaxy. Even with slower speeds, their ships are large and
> powerful > enough to withstand Imperial weapons, so they'd be a slow,
> unstoppable > march accross Imperial territory. At least until they
> assimilate > hyperdrive.
>
> They are perfectly stoppable, especially since they would send a
> single cube, which could easily be destroyed. When they sent more
> later, simply destroy the cubes you meet, and sterilize their planets.
They might send one, they might send two, or they might send
dozens. Destroying a cube is not simple as you have us believe, the only
thing we've ever really have seen do that are the S8472 bioships, which
have far, far greater firepower than anything we've seen in terms of
conventional capital ships in either SW or ST to date.
> > The thing is, SW doesn't have concrete numbers, it just thinks it
> does. > Mike Wong has some good arguments for his numbers (around 1e21
> J for ISD > shields/weapons), and as such his figures have become
> assumed to be true > for pro-SW fans. Personally I don't agree with
> him, and would put ISD > shields/weapons at around 1e18 J, while
> others argue for ISD > shields/weapons of 1e24 J or more. The only
> concrete evidence is the > asteroid destruction, putting a lower limit
> of around 1e16 J. All the > rest of Mike's arguments are based on some
> resonable but unproven > assumptions.
>
> Such as? I would appreciate examples here, as the numbers we use here
> are on the extreme low side of those that are possible for SW.
>
> >
> > The numbers are actually much more concrete for ST, at least for a GCS -
> > 1e17 J for torpedos (a 64 MT explosive is a simple energy calculation,
> > not much debate there) and shield/phaser energies plus or minus an order
> > of magnitude.
>
> Of you want to use the concrete information for ST, then phasers are
> 1.02 GW. Anything else is not concrete.
This not a "concrete" number. It comes from a secondary printed canon
source, which has been contradicted on screen at least twice. For example
in TNG's "A Matter of Time", where Data impliciately states that the
ship's phaser's variance must not be off by 0.06 TW. That's a variance
that is nearly 60 times higher than the TM's number.
> > S8472 is unadaptable by the Borg (in which case we have no
> information > as to the upper limits of their shields) or beyond the
> energies the Borg > can handle (in which case Borg shielding is less
> than 1e35 J)
>
> Where does this number come from? A planet can be destroyed with 4
> orders of magnitude less firepower than that. We also have never seen
> the combined beam firing on a borg.
What we have seen though, is a single S8472 ship firing on a single cube,
which did not destroy the cube in a single, or even multiple shots. So
it's a stretch, but it is possible to assume that in some situations
multiple S8472 ships are firing apon single cubes in order to instantly
destroy them.
> There is plenty of evidence. See Mike January's page for the amount of
> energy needed to destroy a fully-adapted cube. (Unless of course you
> think they weren't able to adapt to rocks flying at them, in which case,
> the drones can be mowed down by modern armies.)
And Storm Troopers can't handle primative teddy bears throwing rocks at
them, and clubbing them over the head. Your point? Simple tank traps would
be all that's needed by the rebels to stop AT-ATs to trip them up, or
delay them.
A cube can be taken out
> by 1.5 broadsides of an ISD, and using very low estimates for SW ISD
> firepower, a galaxy class starship can be destroyed in less than a
> microsecond of a single broadside.
Actually this is pointless, I've watched this debate over the years, and
the silly thing is whenever one side finds something like this to crow
about, the other side comes up with something else. Today an ISD TL fires
KT range firepower, then ST notes that a photon torpedo could be MT range,
so then SWarsies go beserk and demand Unca Wong and Wayne save 'em, so
then TLs go up to high MT range, and then Trekkies get upset respond by
pointing out having to get Graham or someone else to help 'em out by
pointing out something else, and soon before you know it everybody's weapons are in the
GT range and so on and so forth. It never ends.
-Mike
Generic Star Wars Fan
reason.
so I was going to "correct" them, but I was wrong.
so I didnt.
--
I CAN HEAR PIXIES TALKING TO ME. AND LEPRECHAUNS AND GOBLINS AND SOMETIMES
EVEN ESKIMOS.
Commander Thelea <Lusankya...@Aol.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2774a2c4...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com...
> In article <8bsscv$1o11$1...@nnrp01.ops.uunet.co.za>, scottty@KILL-
> SPAM.nis.za (Scottty) wrote:
> >"Generic Star Wars Fan" <wey...@btinternet.com.DESPAM> wrote:
> >
> >>our galaxy is no 120000 ly accress. It is more ythan that
> tisnt it?
> >
> >>no
> >
> >>wait sorry, what am I saying
> >
> >>of course your right
> >
> >100 000 ly across is the figure I've always been told.
> >( one hundred thousand lightyears)
> >that, of course, is across the disk. Not sure what the maximum
> >distance from the "top" of the nucleus to the "bottom" is..
> >( the galaxy is shaped a bit like the saucer section of the
> >Enterprise-A) :-)
> >
Graeme Dice
>
> Billions? The analysis is based on a vauge at best statement by General
> Dodonna during the briefing session! Yet we know that during Vader's
> search for Luke Skywalker and the Rebels, only five ISDs and one SSD
> supplemented by probe droids could be spared to go looking for them.
> Further evidence from Mon Motha's briefing in RoTJ empatically stated that
> the imperial fleet was "spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to
> engadge us". This does not sound like there are billions of ISDs or
> Imperial ships as a whole if they can be spread thinly like that.
With over 12 million worlds, and an entire galaxy of over 200 billion
stars, it is easy to spread a billion ships thin.
> > The entire galaxy has been mapped, and even if it hasn't, a very
> > reasonable number of probe droids could complete the task in under
> > three months. This is mapping _every_ single cubic lightyear of the
> > entire galaxy as well.
>
> They did not. We have no evidence that "thousands of probe droids" were
> able to do that what so ever. The one probe we did see on Hoth was planet
> bound, and did not do anything that resembled a major survey of the entire
> Hoth system, much less an area of one cubic LY around said system.
All we ever saw it do was land on the planet. We know that SW sensors
have a detection range for starships of at least 7 light-years. Given 1
million probes, and spending a ridiculously long time of half an hour
per scanning stop, it will take less than three months to map an entire
galaxy down to the starship scale.
> > The first world it met would send out a distress call, which would be
> > received instantly across the entire galaxy.
>
> The book, "The Truce At Bakura" would seem to disagree with this
> notion. It indicates that months or even years could go by before the rest
> of the galaxy's remotest parts heard about Palpatine's downfall. On top of
> that Bakura was largely undefended, and the Empire was ill prepared to
> deal with any significant threat by the Ssi'ruk, or anyone else. Even if
> the message was instantaneous, the response would not be there there in
> less than a day to deal with the threat.
The remotest parts of the galaxy did not hear about Palpatine's
downfall, because the remnants of the Empire did not _want_ them to hear
about it.
>
>
> > for by Mike Wong, not a definitive answer.
>
> >
> > They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
> > arisen. In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute
> > lower limits for SW. I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
> > Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
> > canon information directly from the movies.
>
> No this is not the case. Much of the multi-gigaton estimates come from
> Base Delta Zero assumptions about an ISD being able to "slag" a planet's
> surface.
Those numbers are actually middle range. Take 25,000 ISD's and divide
that number into 2E38 J, and you get 8.3E33 J per ISD. This is planet
destroying firepower.
> Photon torpdoes having a 64 MT upper limit is based solely on the
> assumption that TNG TM is correct about the amount of AM/M used in
> warhead. Yet we know from VGR's "Scorpion Pt. II", a torp has an explosive
> yield of 200 isotons, and a Borg gravitic mine has 5 million. The latter
> photon torp number is roughly 8 times higher than the 25 isoton number
> given in the highly flawed DS9 TM. Whatever the limit, we know that from
> DS9's "Valiant", that a photon torpedo warhead can be increased in size
> beyond the normal limits by removing some of the automated guidence
> hardware, and other equipment, and guiding the torpedo in manually to it's
> target. Need a gigaton from each torp to attack the large, slow moving
> ships like a Borg cube, or the Empire's ISDs? No problem, load 20 kg of
> antimatter and matter into the warhead, there's plenty enough room those
> casings.
They've never done this, even though it would help them in such battles,
which indicates that is is highly unlikely that they will do so in the
future.
> > Probably others does not mean they exist. The specialized knowledge was
> > nothing more than the basic military tactic of concentrating your fire
> > on a visible hole in the side of the ship. Hardly anything special.
>
> Really? Before the fleet opened fire on the spot designated, there seemed
> to be no significant damage in that area. The hole only appeared, and
> opened up as the fleet fired on that spot.
Which is to be expected if you concentrate your firepower instead of
spreading it out around multiple faces.
> > It is still slower than Darth Maul's Infiltrator travelled to Tatooine,
> > even with the most inflated numbers possible.
>
> The 10 hour number is actually a lower limit! In VGR's "Timeless",
> Voyager using the quantum slipstream drive obtained in "Hope and
> Fear" travelled back to the outer edges of the Alpha quadrent in less than
> five *minutes*. If you want to use One Time Wonders (tm) for SW, then ST
> gets to use some of it's own. Take for example the E-D travelling
> 2,700,000 LY in "Where No One Has Gone Before" in only a minute thanks to
> the Traveller. Or V'Ger's exploration of the ENTIRE universe in less than
> 300 years as per ST:TMP!
The Infiltrator is a normal ship, and was not helped along by an outside
entity such as the traveller.
> > Unless you burn all life off the planet from orbit. That would be the
> > most efficient way to dispose of the borg, remove their logistical
> > capabilities.
>
> Again, as per "Truce At Bakura", it was'nt done by Imperial forces to deny
> a powerful new enemy the Bakura system a foothold, and it's not very
> likely to be done if the Borg invade. At least in the initial stages of a
> Borg invasion.
That is because there were still Imperial citizens living on the
planet. Borg are not imperial citizens.
> > And yet, somehow, they have not managed to do anything but take over a
> > rather small area of a single galaxy. This does not point to rapid
> > shipbuilding.
>
> A section of the galaxy roughly 10,000 ly wide, possibly more? The Borg
> were stated by both Q and Guinan to be a patient, and methodical
> entity. The Borg have a galactic influence that spans at least 3 of the
> four known quadrents in the Milky Way galaxy!
For some odd reason the races living in close proximity to the Borg
don't seem to be worried about them. You'd think that the Kazon and
such should be deathly afraid of a borg attack.
> So? After at least a month, or more of constant fighting with S8472.
So several hundred cubes is still a large blow to the Borg, even if they
occurred over a month.
> Need
> we aslo remind you that the New Republic was very worried about Admiral
> Thrawn getting ahold of the 200 Katana fleet dreadnaughts in HTE?
200 dreadnoughts would upset the balance of power, which is enough of a
reason to be worried. If I have 200 more ships than you do, then I can
cause damage by using them as a mobile force.
> >
> > If they controlled that many worlds, then they would have already
> > taken over the Milky Way, hence they don't have that many worlds.
>
> That's highly circular logic at best. Not taking over the entire galaxy is
> not indicative of the number of planets that may, or may not exist is an
> area that is at least 10,000 ly wide.
Yes it is, as if they controlled that much space, and are as invincible
as you would suggest, then they should have assimilated the majority of
the galaxy in the roughly 10,000 years they have existed.
> > The maw is a cluster of at least 12 black holes, situated so that
> > there is about one safe path through the cluster.
>
> Which does nothing to invalidate his point, if anything, it reinforces it.
> > And will promptly be set upon by an Imperial fleet, when the distress
> > signal is sent over the hypernet. The Empire must patrol the majority
> > of its worlds, or they could not rule by fear.
>
> But by the time they respond to such a remote location, such as Bakura, it
> would be too late. The populations would be assimilated, or well on their
> way, and the knowledge of SW technology, and the SW galaxy will be taken
> by the Borg. His point still stands.
Then sterilize the planet, and kill any borg cubes you come across. The
borg are not a dangerous enemy, because several races with technology
inferior to that of the federation can sit only days from their border
and not worry about attacks.
> >
> > They are perfectly stoppable, especially since they would send a
> > single cube, which could easily be destroyed. When they sent more
> > later, simply destroy the cubes you meet, and sterilize their planets.
>
> They might send one, they might send two, or they might send
> dozens. Destroying a cube is not simple as you have us believe, the only
> thing we've ever really have seen do that are the S8472 bioships, which
> have far, far greater firepower than anything we've seen in terms of
> conventional capital ships in either SW or ST to date.
S8472 ships do not have firepower greater than anything else, as they
hit Voyager, and did not instantly destroy the ship. The bioships
firepower does not even begin to approach that of the DS1.
> > Such as? I would appreciate examples here, as the numbers we use here
> > are on the extreme low side of those that are possible for SW.
Any examples?
> > Of you want to use the concrete information for ST, then phasers are
> > 1.02 GW. Anything else is not concrete.
>
> This not a "concrete" number. It comes from a secondary printed canon
> source, which has been contradicted on screen at least twice. For example
> in TNG's "A Matter of Time", where Data impliciately states that the
> ship's phaser's variance must not be off by 0.06 TW. That's a variance
> that is nearly 60 times higher than the TM's number.
Data's statement can be as wrong as the TM.
> > Where does this number come from? A planet can be destroyed with 4
> > orders of magnitude less firepower than that. We also have never seen
> > the combined beam firing on a borg.
>
> What we have seen though, is a single S8472 ship firing on a single cube,
> which did not destroy the cube in a single, or even multiple shots. So
> it's a stretch, but it is possible to assume that in some situations
> multiple S8472 ships are firing apon single cubes in order to instantly
> destroy them.
That's if there are enough of the central ships in the S8472 formation,
and that the formation is maneuverable enough to actually hit something
smaller than a planet. We know that cubes can be destroyed by less than
planet-killing firepower, which means that S8472's individual weapons
are much less powerful than the beam emitted by the central ship when
powered by the others.
>
> > There is plenty of evidence. See Mike January's page for the amount of
> > energy needed to destroy a fully-adapted cube. (Unless of course you
> > think they weren't able to adapt to rocks flying at them, in which case,
> > the drones can be mowed down by modern armies.)
>
> And Storm Troopers can't handle primative teddy bears throwing rocks at
> them, and clubbing them over the head. Your point? Simple tank traps would
> be all that's needed by the rebels to stop AT-ATs to trip them up, or
> delay them.
Go read Mike's page:
http://users.iafrica.com/x/xr/xris/index.htm
You are avoiding the point, that if the borg did not adapt to the rock
with their ships, then it is foolish to assume that their drones can
adapt to impacts. This leads to borg drones being defeated easily by a
modern army.
Ewoks are not simply teddy bears, they are strong enough to carry
Chewbacca between two of them and not even struggle. Chewie must weigh
over 200 pounds, as he is over 7' tall.
>
> A cube can be taken out
> > by 1.5 broadsides of an ISD, and using very low estimates for SW ISD
> > firepower, a galaxy class starship can be destroyed in less than a
> > microsecond of a single broadside.
>
> Actually this is pointless, I've watched this debate over the years, and
> the silly thing is whenever one side finds something like this to crow
> about, the other side comes up with something else. Today an ISD TL fires
> KT range firepower, then ST notes that a photon torpedo could be MT range,
> so then SWarsies go beserk and demand Unca Wong and Wayne save 'em, so
> then TLs go up to high MT range, and then Trekkies get upset respond by
> pointing out having to get Graham or someone else to help 'em out by
> pointing out something else, and soon before you know it everybody's weapons are in the
> GT range and so on and so forth. It never ends.
> -Mike
This only happens because we use lower limits for the SW weapons to be
nice to the trek side. When the trek side decides to use inflated upper
limits, then we move up to our next middle of the road estimates.
Graeme Dice
--
Annoy the IRS: Fill out your tax form using binary
Commander Thelea
>General Dodonna during the briefing session! Yet we know that
>during Vader's search for Luke Skywalker and the Rebels, only
>five ISDs and one SSD supplemented by probe droids could be
>spared to go looking for them. Further evidence from Mon
>Motha's briefing in RoTJ empatically stated that the imperial
>fleet was "spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to
>engadge us". This does not sound like there are billions of
>ISDs or Imperial ships as a whole if they can be spread thinly
>like that.
It has been repeatedly implied that there are billions of solar
systems in the Star Wars galaxy. Among these, as an official
statement, are "One Million Member Worlds" and "Fifty Million
Colonies, Protectorates, and Governorships." My own calculations
indicate that there is an average of 7 Imperial Warships per
planet, slightly more, though there's only six guarding the
average colony, and eight guarding the averge major world,
though two of those eight are fare more powerful.
In an official (By Lucas Arts standards) Computer game, there
is a second Battleship, smaller than the Executor but larger
than an ISD, along with atleast three more ISDs at Endor, and
that IS official. Not as small a force as you think.
Finally, the Imperial fleet was spread out searching thing. If
it was an unclaimed sector, no sector fleet, and hence the
10,000 capital ships and 25,000 destroyers of the Navy would be
the only ships that could search those regions, while the
378,000,000 ships of the Starfleet stayed in their assigned
patrol regions.
There are also another roughly 306,000,000 picket ships, but
these do not have hyperdrives and are hence limited to their own
systems.. So, the Billions figure is admittedly not accurate for
Capital Ships, however, hundreds of millions, OVER half a
billion, is, counting non-hyperdrive picket ships.
With fighters, based on the average number of fighters carried
per ship, evened out over all the various designs... And
including ground bases.. You get some 30-40 BILLION
Starfighters, and around 20 Billion assault shuttles,
transports, Escort Transports, Escort shuttles, boarding
shuttles, Tie shuttles, and other armed support craft.
So, in small craft, billions, but, admittedly in Capital ships,
only around 400,000,000 when rounded up with Hyperdrive, and
another 300,000,000 without.
And, incase this didn't come through to the Star Trek
technology board and only to ASVS, because I don't fully
understand how remarq's crossposting works, I'll post by study
of the Imperial fleet's abilities and limitations again:
Here's something that will answer all of those nagging
questions about the size of the Imperial Starfleet. It is based
entirely on Canon and Official information, with considerable
research into the naval practices of the Galactic Empire and
comparable governments on Earth to fill in the gaps; Consider
this to be the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM for the Imperial Starfleet based
on all currently availible information, but it is NOT random; I
will explain each estimation below it's listings. This figures
are based on the WEG "One Million Member Worlds and 50 million
Colonies, Proctectorates and Governorships" statement.
Sector Group: 2 Mobile Deepdocks; 120 Very Heavy Repair Ships;
2,260 Non-combatant resupply ships; 240 Torpedo Spheres; 28,372
Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 11,902
Heavy Frigates/Light Destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 80 Heavy
Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long.
Calculated using the full augmentation for each force inside a
Sector Group, at maximum ships for each line. It's safe to
assume that since the book is set immedietly after Yavin, that
by the time of Endor, all sector fleets would be at this
strength, considering Imperial manufacturing capabilities as
based on the second Death Star, which was built secretly, after
all.
Sector Groups (Total): 3,200 Mobile Deepdocks, 192,000 Very
Heavy Repair Ships; 3,616,000 Non-combatant resupply ships;
384,000 Torpedo Spheres; 45,395,200 Corvettes/Gunships/Light
Frigates 101-449 meters long; 19,043,200 Heavy Frigates/Light
Destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 128,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-
1,600 meters long.
Based on the 1,026 Sector estimate based on the Phantom Menace,
and giving it a total of 1,600 Sector Groups based on a rough
estimate of the number of Sector Groups assigned
to "Oversectors", 250 Sector Groups hidden in the Unknown
Regions, those hidden in the Deep Core, and any additional
sectors that might have been added since the time of The Phantom
Menace.. The Empire was almost certainly highly expansionistic.
Colonies, Protectorates and Governorship defence fleets:
300,000,000 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters
long; 300,000,000 Non-Hyperdrive equipped Light Picket Ships;
50,000,000 multi-purpose defence stations.
Based on using the Bakuran defence force of two 350 meter long
light frigates (Carrack Cruisers) and 4 125 meter long gunships,
along with one multi-purpose orbital station, and a patrol group
of 6 IPV-1 picket ships that was mentioned in the Truce at
Bakura sourcebook by WEG.
Member World defence fleets: 2,000,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-
1,600 meters long; 6,000,000 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates
101-449 meters long; 6,000,000 Non-Hyperdrive Equipped Light
Picket Ships; 2,000,000 Golan-III Battlestations (Or firepower
equivlant in larger number of smaller stations.); 1,000,000
Multi-purpose defence stations.
I used the two Golan-IIIs as a firepower representation, and
also based on the two guarding Coruscant that were presumably
captured from the Empire, during "The Krytos Trap". The Heavy
Destroyers (ISDs) are based on the assumption that the two left
behind by Ysanne Isard were part of Coruscant's defence fleet.
There was no reason to leave them behind otherwise; Considering
how few ships she had, she needed them badly. It would only make
sense to leave them behind if they were part of Coruscant's
traditional defence fleet. This figure has limited support from
several comics as well that suggest atleast one ISD is stationed
above major worlds at all times. The rest of the fleet is
identical to that in size and ship-types to a Colony world's
fleet, assuming that the heavier platforms and ships are added
on for the member worlds to that standard fleet.
Imperial Navy: 25,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long;
5,000 Light/Medium Cruisers 1,601 meters long to 4,999 meters
long; 5,000 Heavy
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Carriers/Battleships/Commandships 5,000
meters to 17,600+ meters long (Estimated max superlaser
equipped: 250.) Also: 1 Un-augmented Systems Bombard Group.
Based on the "25,000 ISD" claim from WEG for the Imperial Navy.
This claim was highly odd, because WEG's own figures suggest a
minimum of 128,000 ISDs in their Order of Battle. Likewise was
the claim that only 6 Torpedo Spheres were in service when the
Order of Battle suggested over 300,000 Torpedo Spheres (Which
made me conclude the idea of finding weaknesses in planetary
shields was hogwash; With one bombardment fleet and one assault
fleet, you'd have 200 Torpedo spheres, IE, 10,000 proton
torpedoes a salvo, firing at the shields. That would batter them
down using pure firepower, especially if the other armed ships
joined in.). I chose a different interpetation; The 6 Torpedo
Spheres and 25,000 ISDs are in the "Imperial Navy" according to
WEG. In the Canon movies, it's always called the "Imperial
Starfleet". Therefore, I concluded that the ENTIRE Imperial
Starfleet has far more ISDs and Torpedo Spheres, while there is
a group of the Imperial Starfleet specifically devoted to heavy
combat engagements as opposed to "Coast Guard" style work that
the Sector Groups and planetary defence forces work on. This
fleet contains the 25,000 ISDs and 6 Torpedo Spheres, along with
the following ships: A minimum of 5,000 ships larger than ISDs,
as based on a 5 ISD escort for the Executor at Hoth. However,
according to one computer game (Which are official according to
Curtis Saxton's interpetation; by the rules of the FAQ,
disregard the 10,000 figure and use the 5,000 figure), a ESB
Arcada Game, another ship larger than ISDs participated at Hoth,
namely, in the search for the Falcon, though was not at the
initial attack; it possibly had a slower Hyperdrive, and it Lord
Vader's haste, he left it behind. I concluded then that three of
the ISDs would be the Executor's escort, and two that of the
other ship. From this, I derived the 10,000 heavy ship figure,
split evenly between light and medium cruisers and vessels
larger than that. The one un-augmented systems bombard group
contains the six Torpedo Spheres assigned to the Imperial Navy
and some escorts. I was two damned lazy to re-do all the figures
after I realized it was necessary.
Totals for the Imperial Starfleet: 3,200 Mobile Deepdocks,
192,000 Very Heavy Repair Ships; 3,616,000 Non-combatant
resupply ships; 384,000 Torpedo Spheres; 351,395,200
Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long;
306,000,000 Non-hyperdrive equipped light picket ships;
19,043,200 Heavy Frigates/Light Destroyers 450-1,000 meters
long; 2,153,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long; 5,000
Light/Medium Cruisers 1,601 meters long to 4,999 meters long;
5,000 Heavy
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Carriers/Battleships/Commandships 5,000
meters to 17,600+ meters long (Estimated max superlaser
equipped: 250.); 51,000,000 multi-purpose defence stations;
2,000,000 Golan-III Battlestations; Other Support
ships/Stations/Outposts: UNKNOWN. Also: 1 Un-augmented Systems
Bombard Group.
The one un-augmented systems bombard group contains the six
Torpedo Spheres assigned to the Imperial Navy and some escorts.
I was two damned lazy to re-do all the figures after I realized
it was necessary.
This is everything added together, and seperated by ship type,
as you can see, except that blasted bombardment group. The total
number of combat ships is around:
378,000,000 of all types, roughly, plus 306,000,000 Non-
hyperspace capable picket ships, and some 51,000,000 platforms,
plus gods know how many we don't have accurate figures for.
Also, around 4,000,000 resupply and support ships that are
unarmed, and probably alot more we have no accurate figures for,
and finally 3,200 mobile Deepdocks, plus all the non-mobile
construction/repair facilities that we cannot accurately guess
of in total numbers.
In a total of all Hyperspace capable combat starships over 100
meters in length, divided among the 51,000,000 inhabited worlds,
we get an average of around 7, that's right, only SEVEN ships
PER INHABITED PLANET. I sincerely hope this gives you a true
sense of the scope and scale of the Galactic Empire.
In terms of an invasion force, ONLY the Imperial Navy, with
it's one Systems Bombard group, 25,000 Heavy Destroyers, and
5,000-10,000 Cruiser/Battleship/Carrier/Command rate ships would
be capable of entering and invading another galaxy. The other
378,000,000 combat starships would HAVE to stay in their home
galaxy to police it against rebels, pirates, smugglers,
terrorists, and potential yet highly unlikely enemy raids from
the invaded galaxy or the unknown regions. Considering that the
Imperial Navy is the only truely mobile force out of all these
ships, the Galactic Empire would have essentially ZERO offensive
capacity in it's own galaxy during an invasion; only defence,
except for the direct pacification of known, rebelling planets,
and small operations within sectors. Any large scale offensive
against the rebels or Unknown Region species would be impossible
with the Imperial Navy committed to another galaxy; The
Starfleet would just have to hold the line until the
pacification either succeeded or failed and the Navy returned,
or what was left of it. Certainly, though, the Starfleet is
quite capable of holding the line; it just simply doesn't have
the resources to conduct it's own offensive operations.. That's
the Navy's job.
Well.. There you have it. The Starfleet and the elite offensive
part of it called the Navy, that make up the space-combat arm of
the Galactic Empire's military machine.
Marina O'Leary
"Let your rapidity be that of the wind, your compactness that of
the forest..... Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as
night, and when you strike, fall like a thunderbolt!" -- Sun-
Tzu, The Art of War.
Reply to this message
Shik
ST:TMP!"
Hehhehheh...V'Ger...bet they feel right stupid losing all THAT information...
Graeme Dice mentioned that: "for some odd reason the races living in close
proximity to the Borg
don't seem to be worried about them. You'd think that the Kazon and
such should be deathly afraid of a borg attack." Seven said that they Kazon
were left alone because they were deemed unwrothy for assimilation. They
fuctioned poorly as drones, were NOT very adaptable, & I think they had a nasty
habit of offing themselves.
Now let's think about this for a moment. We've learned that the Borg don't
assimilate haphazardly. They want medical technology from one world,
agriculture from another, Omega Particle research from a third....what if they
didn't WANT to assimilate the Empire? What if they encountered an ISD, scanned
the databanks, found them WANTING, & pushed off looking for a Jiffy Lube?
I can see it now..."No...no....no, there's nothing here we can use. Oh,
well....well, maybe that tall guy in black. He looks like he's about 90% Borg
ANYways...grab his ass & haul him on in here." Heh...Jedi Borg. Use the mind
trick on them & the crews of the ships will be marching towards
them..."Resistance is futile. We're lowering our shields & surrendering our
weapons. Our biological & technological distinctiveness will be added to your
own."
Shik
"What inspiration will today's challenger bring, & how will the Iron Chef fight
back? The heat will be ON!!"
Shik
on habitable planets?
Aron Kerkhof
>> we aslo remind you that the New Republic was very worried about Admiral
>> Thrawn getting ahold of the 200 Katana fleet dreadnaughts in HTE?
>
>200 dreadnoughts would upset the balance of power, which is enough of a
>reason to be worried. If I have 200 more ships than you do, then I can
>cause damage by using them as a mobile force.
Just wanted to point out that this was also the Imperial AND New
Republic forces at a very low ebb. They are at the tail end of a five
year civil war, where obviously the Empire nor the New Republic have
25,000 SD's to throw around. So 200 ships could in fact turn the tide
of the war.
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
Aron Kerkhof
<rmc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I've found that I can tolerate it for a few months at most in each time I go
>over there. The level of intelligence on the whole is incredibly low, and
>both sides are so entrenched that they rarely concede even the most obvious
>point. I'm sorry to say, usually the Trek side is the more ignorant and
>insane of the two. Most of the time I was arguing against them, combating
>idiocy in our ranks. If half of the Trekkies in a.s.v.s came to r.a.s.t or
>Rick's group we would probably go nuts explaining things like the difference
>between watts and joules to them.
Gee whiz, whoever could you be referring to? :-) Hi Ryan, how ya
been doing? What ever happened to SF Mastercom? Reply by email if you
wish.
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
Paul Cassidy
<snip>
> >Acording to Han Solo, the ENTIRE FLEET could not do to a planet
> >when the DS did to Alderaan.
>
> seen". It was a rough guess that one thousand ships with more
> firepower than he had seen in his life could destroy a planet.
> That does NOT mean that one million ships with firepower he had
> seen could not destroy the planet. Clearly, some 160,000,000
> Imperial ships, firing one broadside, would do the same damage
> as the Death Star's Superlaser in one shot, and would be
> superiour as they could fire every two seconds instead of once
> every 8 hours.. However, if half the Imperial fleet was in one
> system, half the galaxy would fall to the Rebels, most likely.
> Hence the need for the Death Star.. Concentrated firepower.
>
Neither quote is exactly accurate. Well let's go back to the sources.
The actual quote from the film is....
"The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the planet. It would take a thousand
ships with more firepower than....."
The novelisation says....
"The entire starfleet couldn't have done this. It would take a thousand
ships massing a lot more firepower than has ever existed."
The novelisation seems the clearer description of the two, but the film
obviously has a higher canonicity (is that a word?) rating. ,
As for Dodonna's quote, the films says....
"The battlestation is heavily shielded, and carries a firepower greater than
half the starfleet."
The book says...
"The station is heavily shielded, and mounts more firepower than half the
imperial fleet."
Both seem pretty similar here, but basing calculations on this quote is
pretty hazardous, since we do not know the size of the fleet, or how much
more than half the fleets firepower the DS has.
Just as an aside, it seems that many worlds in SW are pretty basic, and
would not themselves be capable of building or supporting large starships.
For example, Tattooine probably has never built any large warships.
Therefore they may be a large number of planets are habitable, but have no
real resources to speak of. Other worlds that did have resources and could
build ships decided not to (ie Aldaraan and Calmari(sp?)). Others were
officially part of the empire, but seemed to exist outside its control and
probably contributed very little to the actual fleet numbers (ie Bespin).
Obviously some worlds were capable of building large numbers of starships
(ie Lorenar and Coruscant), but can they outweigh the large number of
planets that cannot/don't/won't? Seems unlikely.
As to estimating fleet sizes, it always seemed unlikely to me that the
Empire had a ship in every system. Again, it seems that Tattooine for
example did not have a standing large ship patrol. If it had, you would
assume that it would have cut off Leia's ships before it could have
approached the planet. Similarly other worlds like Aldarran had virtually no
imperial presence.
Therefore, simply multiplying out the number of planets and ships is not a
viable calculation.
Paul Cassidy
>
> In an official (By Lucas Arts standards) Computer game, there
> is a second Battleship, smaller than the Executor but larger
> than an ISD, along with atleast three more ISDs at Endor, and
> that IS official. Not as small a force as you think.
>
Unfortunately, computer games are overruled by the canon film. We saw the
imperial fleet, so we can make a good estimate of it's strength.
<snip>
JediMaster
powerful-an enemy that can't be destroyed because they can become
invulnerable to any "phaser" after one shot, and have WAY too many of their
precious cubes.
Commander Thelea <Lusankya...@Aol.com.invalid> wrote in message
> >Okay, first off; yes, I agree that the Borg would kick the
> >Empire's ass. There are many, many reasons for this. Most of
> >Weyoun's (whatever possessed you to alias yourself after a
> >lying, cheating weasel, anyway?) reasons are a little OTT, but
> >here are /mine/.
>
> I'm listening.. With interest.
>
> >However big the Empire is, it's not been around for all that
> >long (only since sometime after TPM, after all, which is within
> >Ye Vader's lifetime);
> >admittedly, the Republic was around for an indeterminate length
> >of time before then, but it would hardly have had the same
> >industrial base, to judge by TPM, and certainly wouldn't have
> >been so geared towards military production.
>
> we do have evidence of the contruction power of the Empire..
> Case in point, the Death Star Mk.II, which was about half done
> in six months.
>
> My own calculations, based purely on official information and
> supported by the Ddonna Calcs and one of Tarkin's statements
> during ANH indicate that the empire employs over Two Million
> starships. Of those, some 10,000 are ships LARGER than ISDs.
> These are spread among 51 million habitable planets; One
> million member worlds with populations in the TRILLIONS, and
> another fifty million colonies, protectorates, and governorships.
>
> The Empire has lasted for 25,000.. The same length as the
> Republic, because the Empire IS the Republic.
>
> Chancellor declaring himself dictator and renaming the thing.
>
> The Third Reich was still Germany, you know, and it's the same
> thing here.
>
> >The Borg, on the other hand, have been around for millenia -
> >five thousand is the minimum established, I believe, based on
> >some recent Voyager quote I haven't seen yet, and there are
> >hints of an age in the hundreds-of-thousands range. And they
> >don't change much. They assimilate, absorb, repeat as needed.
>
> become an inferior abomination. They are technologically
> inferior to the Empire; Even if they can adapt to the Empire's
> Plasma-based weaponry, it's IRRELVENT: Imperial warships can
> direct more energy into their weapons than the Borg can into
> their shields, and hence even fully adapted the shields well
> overload from trying to absorb to much energy, and collapse.
>
> I even assumed that the shields could force the Imperial TL
> Bolts to artificially detonate into plasma flak bursts; Enough
> plasma would still hit a cube that two ISDs working together
> could destroy one, with the cost of one of those ISDs. And
> that's using the most generous possible Pro-Borg calculations,
> an the worst Anti-Empire ones.
>
> >The Borg have technologies /way/ beyond the Empire. Hell, look
> >at the Federation, mere babes-in-the-technological-woods in
> >comparison; they've got replicators, m/am annihilation, phasers
>
>
> the Feds should have stuck with lasers and worked on beefing up
> their power. Replicators Star Wars DOES have. In the first Han
> Solo trilogy, Han Solo repeatedly mentions an identical
> technology they call "Duplicators".
>
> >(plasma lasers? Ha!), photon torpedoes, shields considerably
>
> that induces the NDF effect in the target, which becames less
> effective the more heavily armoured the ship is; They'd be
> virtually useless against the heavy Imperial capital ships
> (Except Defiant style Pulse Phasers), though they'd easily rip
> through dozens of fighters.
>
> anything remotely near equal terms are Quantum torpedoes.
>
> >more powerful than a star destroyer's seem to be, and a bunch
> >of other stuff I can't think of right now ("cheap"
> >fusion power, big lasers, and hyperdrive (seemingly its only
> >big technological advantage, and the ST universe can beat that
> >too - quantum slipstream drive, with
>
>
> Death Star, it is clearly stated to have a Hypermatter Reactor,
> NOT a fusion reactor.
> An ISD does not have a Fusion reactor, either. It just uses a
> reactor "As Powerful as a miniature sun". Might I also remind
> everyone that even if you want to interpet it as BEING a
> miniature sun.. A Black Hole is technically a miniature sun, and
> fits the power requirements of an ISD, while normal fusion could
> NEVER provide the energy for the Two Gigaton Plasma shots we
> know ISDs can fire thanks to ESB and the asteroid calcs.
>
>
> >and the Borg assimilated it...)
>
> Actually, it was CLEARLY stated that it would take six months
> for Quantum Slipstream drive to cross the Galaxy.
>
> Star Wars can do it in four days in areas with little space
> debris.
>
> >Admittedly, as Graham Kennedy's >excellent "Portal" fanfic
>
> propaganda on the internet. It has the appearence of a nice
> story, but his impossibly insane scientific advantage for the
> Federation makes me sick to try and read it.
>
> I used to believe in the material on his website, not really
> considering things, but then I stopped by Mike Wong's and
> started studying everything from a scientific standpoint, and
> realized how utterly, insanely absurb it is.
>
> >posits, the Empire applies its >technologies on a pretty huge
> >scale, but this conflicts with >one of my own little personal
> >platitudes: "In a non-stagnant >society, progress tends to
> >outpace audacity." That the Empire >can build fusion generators
> >the size of small moons etc. >without discovering something
>
>
>
> The Death Star uses a Hypermatter Reactor.
>
> Imperial Society is stagnant because it is SO technologically
> advanced that it DOESN'T NEED TO ADVANCE ANYMORE. It fits the
> needs of it's citizens, and it hundreds of years more advanced
> than the Federation.. Most likely thousands, even with
> stagnation. Galactic Civilization has lasted 25,000 years,
> united, and another good 65,000 before that, split up among tiny
> various governments, until the actions of Xim the Despot forced
> them to come together.
>
> >/better/ than fusion implies a lack of innovation. Would anyone
> >here seriously claim that the Empire would be able to
> >ingeniously devise some new gimmick to defeat the Borg in the
> >space of a few minutes, as most of the ST universe can do? >
> >(Okay, I exaggerate, but you take my point.)
>
> volley fire at the cubeship!" That's all they need to say. Two
> ISDs will blow the Cube apart, at the cost of one ISD, WHEN THE
> BORG have adapted as far as they cannot. You cannot violate the
> conservation of energy, and the high power of the 90% Plasma/10%
> Laser Turbolaser weaponry (That's my estimated percentage; it is
> a mixed weapon, and it seems logical based on the description),
> will rip apart Borg cubes, even detonating in Flak bursts, even
> if the Borg atapt to the 10% laser section of the energy.. 1,800
> megatons is still coming through. Remember what that solar flare
> did to the Borg Transwarp ship... And that Solar Flare was far
> WEAKER than an ISD's weapons.
>
> Using Athega and comparing it with that incident, we find that
> the shielding and hull armour of an ISD is ten times stronger
> than that of a Borg Transwarp ship.
>
> >Now, the Borg outpace even the technologies mentioned above.
> >They have a production base which, while undeniably smaller
> >than the Empire's, is very probably much more concentrated and
> >one "unicomplex" with partial internal dimensions in the 600 km
> >range, and there was no indication that this construct was
> >unique. Furthermore, it didn't seem to be anywhere particularly
> >important. And indeed, the contention that the Borg's space is
> >smaller than the Empire's is questionable; we've seen them
> >cross universes in search of new conquests, and
> >while "Scorpion" was probably their first attempt, we can't be
> >sure of that.
>
>
> size, but of opening a pathway between dimensions.
>
> The Borg have considerably inferior technological capability to
> the Empire; They do not even control an entire Quadrant, and
> with duplicators and construction droids, the Empire far
> surpasses them.
>
> >While the idea of the Borg simply taking apart planets to build
> >ships is a little silly-sounding, it should not be dismissed;
> >however, even that extreme is not necessary for the Borg to be
> >replicators; I wouldn't be surprised if the Borg were capable
> >of simply scooping up asteroid belts and Oort clouds and
> >transmuting them into the required materiel.
>
> again remind you of Duplicators from the first Han Solo trilogy.
>
> >The Borg can generate artificial quantum singularities. Can you
> >imagine one of those being dumped in the Empire's shipping
> >lanes?
>
> collapses in a burst of radiation, of course, but all evidence
> Indicates that's what powers ISDs, and as far as I've seen, the
> Borg cannot generate one that would last very long. The Gravity
> warning sensors on Star Wars ships would bring that out of
> hyperspace safely, anyway.
>
> >The obvious argument; the Borg can assimilate all the knowledge
> >of the Empire, or at least most of the combat-related stuff,
> >particularly important worlds. They're holographic in concept;
> >the part contains the whole. One Borg cube could concievably
> >rebuild the Collective. OTOH, the Empire could be decapitated
> >with one nova-triggering; a few dozen (or hundred, or thousand)
> >surgical strikes could effectively disintegrate its military
> >infrastructure.
>
> impossible with the numerological and technological superiourity
> of the Empire, OR they would have to travel across years and
> years of intergalactic space; With a faster Hyperdrive ship or a
> wormhole in Imperial hands racing ahead, the galaxy would rally
> a massive defence force, meet them on the edge of the SW Galaxy,
> and cross them. Even the Trekkers at ASVS agree that a Borg
> offensive is impossible; Only their ability to defend themselves
> is seriously debated.
>
> And there are many measures for stopping Borg assimilation;
> Namely, self-destructing your ship.
>
> And any Imperial officer would be smart enough to save one
> charge in his blaster for his brains when fighting the Borg.
> They'd not get much information at all.
>
> >There's more, but it's late, and I'd rather see how this is
> >recieved first. Let the flaming commence...
>
> arguement, but it's based on flawed informtion, and I hope to
> show you those flaws so you can correct your perceptions in a
> scientific manner.
>
>
>
>
> >What proof do you have that they have this many cubes, even the
> >>most generous estimates in favour of Trek (Satans speculation
> >>site aka the Daystrom Institute) only say in the millions ?
> >>although that is a bit hard to believe.
>
> >Hmm... Part of me wants to say "Wayne Poe, right?".
>
> Most likely. He's quite intelligent, and of course all rely on
> th Brian Young, Curtis Saxton, and Michael Wong pages for
> approrpiate information on Imperial firepower.
>
> The following is Weyoun's original post. I want to make it
> absolutely clear that I don't directly agree with most of his
> argument.
>
> Well, Federation shields are frequency based, Imperial shields
> are not, so no Borg beam-throughs.
>
> Next, the Galaxy Gun's missiles are shielded and armed with
> defensive weaponry, and can make course changes.
>
> If there's anything I've missed, let me know, and I'll be glad
> to explain it.
>
> Marina O'Leary
>
> "ASVS as given me the title of Battlecruiser."
Kyle
>
> <snip>
> >
> > In an official (By Lucas Arts standards) Computer game, there
> > is a second Battleship, smaller than the Executor but larger
> > than an ISD, along with atleast three more ISDs at Endor, and
> > that IS official. Not as small a force as you think.
> >
>
> imperial fleet, so we can make a good estimate of it's strength.
>
The second battleship wasn't shown with the fleet, but was
instead shown off by itself with a caption saying something
similar to "The imperial fleet searches for the Rebel base."
So it isn't a contradiction since that ship was presumably
part of a detached force.
--
Kyle Knopf
Mike Dicenso
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Aron Kerkhof wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:42:39 -0700, Mike Dicenso
> <mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >> My own calculations, based purely on official information and
> >> supported by the Ddonna Calcs and one of Tarkin's statements
> >> during ANH indicate that the empire employs over Two Million
> >> ISDs,
> >
> >All General Dodonna says is that the DS I has a firepower "Greater than
> >half the starfleet". How does that equate to millions of ISDs? And just
> >what did Tarkin say during ANH that indicates a that there are millions of
> >ISDs, or other Imperial captial ships? The only thing I can recall is
> >Admiral Motti, and General Tagge's arguement. But that was Motti taunting
> >Tagge that the Rebels were "Dangerous to your starfleet, not to this
> >battlestation!".
>
> In the novelization of ANH Tarkin states something to the effect that
> the Death Star would give them firm control over the "million worlds
> or the Empire."
I just finished flipping through the ANH novelization, and I can't find
specifically what your refering to here. You need to provide direct quote,
or a page reference here. Be it as it may, we know the following: Both the
Empire and the Borg can build enourmous capital class ships in the
multi-km range on a routine basis. We also know that both powers can build
"planetoid" sized stations as well too as witnessed by the Death Stars and
the Borg Unicomplex, which are hundreds of km wide. Third, but not least
of all, both powers have ultra fast FTL drives in the form of hyperspace
and transwarp respectively. Oh yeah, and becuase of that, both powers have
an influence on galactic affairs.
> Logically, you'd need at LEAST 1 ship per world to expect to have
> control over anything, and probably much more so. Thela's analysis is
> now attached to this thread I believe.
The attachment is not part of this thread in any posting that I can
view. But I have to remain very skeptical of this since I've seen even in
this thread, the pro-SW side is making the same errors and mistakes that
they always do. For example, quoting the the silly Athega scene from HTE,
when anyone who bothers to read it knows that the whole battle lasted
scarcely 30 minutes, and of that only 5 at most involved the Judicator
being exposed to Athega. The rest of the time it, like everyone else was
in Nkllon's shadow. On top of that, the comic adapation shows Athega to be
a fairly ordinary star by all appearences.
> and Han's reactions to seeing the DS I for the first time certainly
> >indicate that nothing like them was ever built before.
>
> That's true, but they did have a signifigant starfleet. Dreadnaughts
> were not that much smaller than ISD's, and still to the present pose a
> threat to such vessels. Victory Star Destroyers were actually
> conceived and built under the OR, so their starfleet was nothing to
> sneeze at. Actually, I think the next two episodes of SW will put all
these questions to rest.
The Galactic Republic, even with all these supposed ships mentioned in the
secondary offical sources, did not have a signifcant control of the
of SW galaxy as witnessed by Gui Gonn's statements concerning the
Republic's lack of control over Tatooine, and the outer rim territories
in TPM.
> >So Duplicators equal replicators? Can you describe how a duplicator
> works >in comparison to the transporter-based technology of the ST
> replicator?
>
> Why would that be relevant? The known example of "duplicator tech"
> working would be a World Devastator and their smaller, more civil
> minded Construction droid brothers. Raw matter goes in, completed
> product spits out.
Which has not been proven to be as efficent one way or the other over say
the Borg ability to regenerate a vessel. Your saying that one = another,
and that the tech is related. Maybe that's not what you ment to say, but
that's the way it sounded. Spitting out lots of TIE's is not the same as
rebuilding whole sections of ship that are over a cubic km in volume.
> fighters. > >Ah another alumni of Mike Wong's! Actually there are many
> cases, >especially during the Dominion War of phasers
> destroying/vaporizing huge >chunks of armor and hull out of various
> starships in the major fleet >actions.
>
> Great! As I've always said before, it would be so swell to see
> someone collect this evidence on some website and post their
> calculations so we can lay this matter to rest once and for all. No
> one has done it so far.
That already is the case, though not to the full extent anyone would like
it to be. I hate to bring up Graham's website, but he does have an
excellent archive of the major fleet actions, and recently he has included
the big Dominion War battles. There you can find superb images of
starships with huge chunks of hull ripped out of them by phasers if you're
willing to go through the trouble. He even has a section for the D'Deridex
weapons, detailing the calculations of a warbird vaporizing three stolen
Vulcan vessels to prevent them from falling into enemy hands.
> >that must be taken into account when describing the effects we see on ST
> >and SW ships when they are shown being damaged on-screen.
>
> Fortunately, asteroids have no such SIF technology, so no matter what,
> ESB stands to this very day as a fairly concrete lower limit of SW
> weapons tech.
Ah now we run from ship hulls to asteroids, do we? Alright ST has it's own
"concrete" examples to set lower levels of firepower with too. From the
asteropid destruction in ST:TMP to VGR's Rise there are examples of
asteroids and comets being destroyed or vaporized. In the case of TNG's
"A Matter of Time", the E-D using phasers to burn off the dust in the
Penthra IV atmosphere as the risk of igniting the whole planet's
atmosphere if the phaser's varience is off by only 60 GW!
> >> The Empire does NOT use Fusion Power as we think of it; The >>
> Death Star, it is clearly stated to have a Hypermatter Reactor, >> NOT
> a fusion reactor. >> An ISD does not have a Fusion reactor, either. It
> just uses a >> reactor "As Powerful as a miniature sun". Might I also
> remind >> everyone that even if you want to interpet it as BEING a >>
> miniature sun.. A Black Hole is technically a miniature sun, and >>
> fits the power requirements of an ISD, while normal fusion could >>
> NEVER provide the energy for the Two Gigaton Plasma shots we >> know
> ISDs can fire thanks to ESB and the asteroid calcs. > >Romulan
> Warbirds use quantum singularities (black holes) to power their >warp
> cores, and can pulverize nearly a billion cubic meters of rock, and
> >at least melting some that to fuse the mass together within a three
> second >period of time. That also requires multi-gigaton level
> firepower, and we >don't know that's the upper limit of a D'Deridex's
> firepower either.
>
> Ah, a disciple of Kennedy. :-) Suffice to say, there is zero
> evidence that the warbird actually pulverized the rock ('Pegasus',
> right?) or melted a signifigant quantity of it. Too, how wide do you
> think that hole was, anyway?
Actually you've got it ass-backwards here. There is little evidence that
the whole glowing mass of rock filling the tunnel was melted by the
warbird. From dialouge, "The romulans have used their disruptors to
destroy the chasm's entrance". We also know that the warbird must've
dumped a conciderable amount of energy into the task as rock is still seen
glowing more than 9 hours after the incident! The tunnel width and length
can be figured out quite easily as Worf noted that the E-D had travelled
through some 2km of rock, and that there was still 1 km left to go.
There's the length of the plug. Now for the width, we know that the tunnel
is no less than 500 meters wide based on the ability of the 470 m wide E-D
to pass through it to reach the USS Pegasus. However, we can see in the
visuals that the tunnel is much wider than that. In fact, we see before
the E-D engages the phase cloak that it has executed a 180 degree turn to
face the tunnel entrance. The E-D according to sources is about 642 m
long, which means quite simply that the tunnel has to be about 700 m wide
at minimum to allow this to occur. So there you have the conservative
"concrete" numbers for the asteroid gamma 601 tunnel dimensions. Using
Pi*R^2*H for the approximate volume of the tunnel, we get over 1 billion
cubic meters of rock conservatively that was pulverized at the very least,
and pushed, or allowed to slide into the tunnel and plug it up.
> Janeway and Seven, he states >that it will take only "A few hours" to
> travel back along the nearly 1,000 >LY (conservative) distance to Borg
> space. That means that it would only >take a matter of a couple weeks
> at most for the Dauntless to travel across >the Milky Way galaxy! The
> Quantum Slipstream drive used in "Timeless" was >considerably faster
> than this, or any SW hyperspace. Travelling the 60,000 >LY distance
> within a few minutes time, or about 500,000,000 times c!
>
> Since I am ignorant of the source here, could you enlighten me about
> the circumstances/dialog that brought you to this conclusion.
I've already mention most of it for both "Timeless", and "Hope and
Fear". Perhaps if you were a little specific as to what you don't
understand, I'd be more able to enlighten you here. Arturis tells Janeway
and Seven quite plainly in "Hope and Fear" that it will take "Only a few
hours" to reach Borg space. We know that Voyager has been travelling for
about nine months since Kes threw the vessel 10,000 ly in "The Gift". We
know that Voyager travels an average of 1,000 LY a year on conventional
warp (75,000 ly/70 years travel time to get home = 1,071 LY per
year). That equates to 83.33 ly per month average, or 750 ly minimum since
"The Gift". Let's say that Arturis' "few hours" = 3 hours travel
time. That means 250 ly per hour, or 25,000 ly per every four days, or
eight to nine days to reach the 60,000 ly distant Alpha quadrent. In
"Timeless", it literally only takes minutes to reach the outer edges of
the Alpha quadrent *period*. There is nothing more concrete, and simple
than that.
> >We do know by the time of the 29th century in the ST universe, that
> >Federation vessels will have the capability to travel not only
> anywhere >in the Milky Way galaxy they want to in scant minutes, but
> travel back na >d forth in time with near impunity as witnessed in
> "Future's End", and >"Relativity". If the SW tech is head of ST in
> some areas, it's not more >than a few centuries at best.
>
> Yes, and right about now, we should be overrun with Khan and his
> bioengineered soldiers. The future... it's always changing. The
> point is that if SW met up with most known ST conventional races RIGHT
> NOW, they would have the edge.
But the arguement is about the Empire vs Borg, not Empire vs the Kazon
Nistrum! The Borg have many of the advantages of the Empire *now*.
-Mike
Mike Dicenso
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Aron Kerkhof wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:14:40 GMT, Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >> we aslo remind you that the New Republic was very worried about Admiral
> >> Thrawn getting ahold of the 200 Katana fleet dreadnaughts in HTE?
> >
> >200 dreadnoughts would upset the balance of power, which is enough of a
> >reason to be worried. If I have 200 more ships than you do, then I can
> >cause damage by using them as a mobile force.
>
> Just wanted to point out that this was also the Imperial AND New
> Republic forces at a very low ebb. They are at the tail end of a five
> year civil war, where obviously the Empire nor the New Republic have
> 25,000 SD's to throw around. So 200 ships could in fact turn the tide
> of the war.
Which just goes to show that the SW galaxy does have it's limitations on
production capability. No doubt there are those in the Galactic Empire who
wish that the production resources were'nt wasted on the five Death Stars,
and put into building ships and planetary fortifications instead.
-Mike
Admiral Korel
>called Kennedy many things in the past, but "Satan" wasn't one of them!
No offence. I didn't actually think it was you, you're simply the only
person I know of on a.s.v.s.
>BTW, for fun:
Uh-oh.
>http://www.h4h.com/louis/borg.html
Why do I get the feeling this isn't going to be complimentary?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morgan McEvoy, morg...@esatclear.ie
"It's like the laws of physics just went out the window."
"And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient!"
Admiral Korel
>have a detection range for starships of at least 7 light-years. Given 1
>million probes, and spending a ridiculously long time of half an hour
>per scanning stop, it will take less than three months to map an entire
>galaxy down to the starship scale.
Starships can be a lot easier to detect than natural phenomena. Such a
mission as you describe would leave the Empire with little idea of brown
dwarf populations, for example.
>They've never done this, even though it would help them in such battles,
>which indicates that is is highly unlikely that they will do so in the
>future.
Mike's implication was pretty clearly that they probably /had/ done this on
Voyager.
>> > Probably others does not mean they exist. The specialized knowledge
was
>> > nothing more than the basic military tactic of concentrating your fire
>> > on a visible hole in the side of the ship. Hardly anything special.
>>
>> Really? Before the fleet opened fire on the spot designated, there seemed
>> to be no significant damage in that area. The hole only appeared, and
>> opened up as the fleet fired on that spot.
>
>Which is to be expected if you concentrate your firepower instead of
>spreading it out around multiple faces.
It was patently obvious from the entire context of the scene that Picard
knew that firing on that specific point would be the most effective tactic.
Not simply that concentrated fire is better than distributed (in fact, it is
often less effective, since being hit in two places at once means that you
have to distribute your shield surge capacity between the two hits). IIRC,
Picard hears Borg voices immediately before giving the order; if the movie
includes even a little of the novel's material in this area, the voices
mention a shield fluctuation.
>For some odd reason the races living in close proximity to the Borg
>don't seem to be worried about them. You'd think that the Kazon and
>such should be deathly afraid of a borg attack.
Why would they be? The races we've seen have little or no interesting
attributes. The Kazon are described as "detracting from perfection", and the
Borg specifically /didn't/ assimilate them. The Vidiians would made terrible
drones; one assimilation would get their medical tech, which is all the Borg
would want. Of all the other races we saw on the "far side" of Borg space
(from Earth), only the Sikarans had an interesting tech, and it may not have
been widely known of outside their world. All the races seemed to be limited
to single planets, and not very advanced. The Federation seems to be the
only civilisation with few interesting attributes which the Borg keeps
trying to assimilate, and it seems that at this point it is more of a grudge
match. Or perhaps the Borg simply want that human nobility for themselves,
or to prevent it from existing outside the Collective.
The point is that the Borg are not indiscriminate conquerors. They only take
what they don't have. Slowly expanding a concentrated power base seems much
more viable than "conquering" the entire galaxy in one fell swoop (besides
the fact that slow expansion gives primitive cultures a chance to ripen).
>> > If they controlled that many worlds, then they would have already
>> > taken over the Milky Way, hence they don't have that many worlds.
>>
>> That's highly circular logic at best. Not taking over the entire galaxy
is
>> not indicative of the number of planets that may, or may not exist is an
>> area that is at least 10,000 ly wide.
>
>Yes it is, as if they controlled that much space, and are as invincible
>as you would suggest, then they should have assimilated the majority of
>the galaxy in the roughly 10,000 years they have existed.
Why? Why would they /want/ to assimilate the entire galaxy? Would that make
them perfect?
Just because they haven't taken over the galaxy yet doesn't mean that they
don't control several million worlds within the space they /do/ posess.
>S8472 ships do not have firepower greater than anything else, as they
>hit Voyager, and did not instantly destroy the ship. The bioships
>firepower does not even begin to approach that of the DS1.
The bioship that shot Voyager could easily still have been powering up (it
fires while its engines are only starting to glow, IIRC).
>Data's statement can be as wrong as the TM.
Er, not really. Trek has this thing called "canon"...
>That's if there are enough of the central ships in the S8472 formation,
>and that the formation is maneuverable enough to actually hit something
>smaller than a planet. We know that cubes can be destroyed by less than
>planet-killing firepower, which means that S8472's individual weapons
>are much less powerful than the beam emitted by the central ship when
>powered by the others.
I think he meant a few ships firing at once, not using the megagun option.
Jonathan Willis
> In the novelization of ANH Tarkin states something to the effect that
> the Death Star would give them firm control over the "million worlds
> or the Empire."
So Tarkin's statement is directly disagreeing with what you say below;
he believes that the DS alone will give control of a million worlds, and
this is something less than 1 ship per world.
> Logically, you'd need at LEAST 1 ship per world to expect to have
> control over anything, and probably much more so. Thela's analysis is
> now attached to this thread I believe.
You don't need one ship per world; you need one garrison per world, plus
enough ships to respond to the average number of simultaneous problems.
And many of these ships needn't be ISD's - the Empire is supposed to
have numerous lesser vessels which can perform day to days tasks.
> Why would that be relevant? The known example of "duplicator tech"
> working would be a World Devastator and their smaller, more civil
> minded Construction droid brothers. Raw matter goes in, completed
> product spits out.
Both of these are building size or larger. Certainly very useful, but
not as convenient for many things as replicators, and nowhere near as
fast.
> Fortunately, asteroids have no such SIF technology, so no matter what,
> ESB stands to this very day as a fairly concrete lower limit of SW
> weapons tech.
Yes it does. However since this lower limit is below the calculated
energy of ST weapons/shields this doesn't help us much in determining
which side is stronger.
> Ah, a disciple of Kennedy. :-) Suffice to say, there is zero
> evidence that the warbird actually pulverized the rock ('Pegasus',
> right?) or melted a signifigant quantity of it. Too, how wide do you
> think that hole was, anyway?
The hole would be at least a few hundred meters in diamter simply to fit
the enterprise through, and they had to travel for quite a distance to
pass through the reoock covering the entrance. And your zero evidence is
wrong; if the rock had just crumbled, in free fall it wouldn't have
fallen accross the entrance, so it had to have been melted. Also while
the Enterprise is phasing through the rock the mass seems reasonably
homogenous, which fits the melting idea.
> Yes, and right about now, we should be overrun with Khan and his
> bioengineered soldiers. The future... it's always changing. The
> point is that if SW met up with most known ST conventional races RIGHT
> NOW, they would have the edge.
In speed yes they would. In other areas, that still under debate.
Aron Kerkhof
I'm seriously worked up about the SVS debate. It's fun for me. A
ncie mental exercise. If I have so far said anything that you took as
insulting, I apologize.
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:11:05 -0700, Mike Dicenso
<mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>> In the novelization of ANH Tarkin states something to the effect that
>> the Death Star would give them firm control over the "million worlds
>> or the Empire."
>
>I just finished flipping through the ANH novelization, and I can't find
>specifically what your refering to here. You need to provide direct quote,
>or a page reference here.
In my copy (it's actually a softcover combo of all three novels in one
tome) it's on page 116. Tarkin says, and I quote:
"This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which
will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and
for all."
>Be it as it may, we know the following: Both the
>Empire and the Borg can build enourmous capital class ships in the
>multi-km range on a routine basis.
I think you are generalizing too much here. While we do not know how
many cubes the Borg have, nor their constuction rate, We DO know that
losing 100 cubes in a period of around a month is a signifigant loss
to the Borg.
We do know the aproximate fleet numbers of the Imperials, and the
time frame in which they were built, and we also know that losing the
whole damn Death Star was but a minor setback. Losing the far larger
Death Star 2 was not mourned by any of the higher Admirals of the
fleet, they were far more upset that the Executer was lost, as it was
crewed by the cream of the Imperial crop as far as future capitans
went. (ref. HTTE)
>We also know that both powers can build
>"planetoid" sized stations as well too as witnessed by the Death Stars and
>the Borg Unicomplex, which are hundreds of km wide.
Again, the Empire was able to construct these without causing a blip
on their economy, as it was constructed entirely out of secret funds
and materials. The borg channel 100% of their resources into
ship/combat production (I presume you won't contest this), and there
is STILL no evidence that they have a fleet numbering in the tens of
thousands, let alone the millions they are often given credit for.
>Third, but not least
>of all, both powers have ultra fast FTL drives in the form of hyperspace
>and transwarp respectively. Oh yeah, and becuase of that, both powers have
> an influence on galactic affairs.
But I think you will agree, grudgingly, that the Empire has far more
influence over their larger galaxy that the Borg does over their own.
>> Logically, you'd need at LEAST 1 ship per world to expect to have
>> control over anything, and probably much more so. Thela's analysis is
>> now attached to this thread I believe.
>
>The attachment is not part of this thread in any posting that I can
>view. But I have to remain very skeptical of this since I've seen even in
>this thread, the pro-SW side is making the same errors and mistakes that
>they always do. For example, quoting the the silly Athega scene from HTE,
>when anyone who bothers to read it knows that the whole battle lasted
>scarcely 30 minutes, and of that only 5 at most involved the Judicator
>being exposed to Athega. The rest of the time it, like everyone else was
>in Nkllon's shadow. On top of that, the comic adapation shows Athega to be
>a fairly ordinary star by all appearences.
Did it? I for one find it difficult to judge a star's intensity by
the color of the ink printed on pulp paper. The book describes it as
a super hot star, and for me it would take more than comic art to
overthrow that. Personally, I don't know why people bring out Athega
either. Canon estimates of TL and shield strength are already
rediculously high. However, I see elsewhere people claiming
signifigant damage occured to the SD in question, which is false. It
suffered minor surface sensor damage only.
>> and Han's reactions to seeing the DS I for the first time certainly
>> >indicate that nothing like them was ever built before.
>>
>> That's true, but they did have a signifigant starfleet. Dreadnaughts
>> were not that much smaller than ISD's, and still to the present pose a
>> threat to such vessels. Victory Star Destroyers were actually
>> conceived and built under the OR, so their starfleet was nothing to
>> sneeze at. Actually, I think the next two episodes of SW will put all
> these questions to rest.
>
>The Galactic Republic, even with all these supposed ships mentioned in the
>secondary offical sources, did not have a signifcant control of the
>of SW galaxy as witnessed by Gui Gonn's statements concerning the
>Republic's lack of control over Tatooine, and the outer rim territories
>in TPM.
Define signifigant. The SW galaxy is 20% larger than our own at any
rate, and tatooine is at the extreme fringe of this. Also, you'll
recall that the Republic fell, not because of it's lack of might, but
because of internal corruption and complacency. Thus, Republic law is
probably not enforced in Hutt space because the Hutts bribe local
officials to see it that way.
>> >So Duplicators equal replicators? Can you describe how a duplicator
>> works >in comparison to the transporter-based technology of the ST
>> replicator?
>>
>> Why would that be relevant? The known example of "duplicator tech"
>> working would be a World Devastator and their smaller, more civil
>> minded Construction droid brothers. Raw matter goes in, completed
>> product spits out.
>
>Which has not been proven to be as efficent one way or the other over say
>the Borg ability to regenerate a vessel. Your saying that one = another,
>and that the tech is related. Maybe that's not what you ment to say, but
>that's the way it sounded. Spitting out lots of TIE's is not the same as
>rebuilding whole sections of ship that are over a cubic km in volume.
Only TIE's? World Devastators are capable of producing new World
Devastators and ships of up to ISD classifications according the
SWEGVV.
>> fighters. > >Ah another alumni of Mike Wong's! Actually there are many
>> cases, >especially during the Dominion War of phasers
>> destroying/vaporizing huge >chunks of armor and hull out of various
>> starships in the major fleet >actions.
>
>>
>> Great! As I've always said before, it would be so swell to see
>> someone collect this evidence on some website and post their
>> calculations so we can lay this matter to rest once and for all. No
>> one has done it so far.
>
>That already is the case, though not to the full extent anyone would like
>it to be. I hate to bring up Graham's website, but he does have an
>excellent archive of the major fleet actions, and recently he has included
>the big Dominion War battles. There you can find superb images of
>starships with huge chunks of hull ripped out of them by phasers if you're
>willing to go through the trouble. He even has a section for the D'Deridex
>weapons, detailing the calculations of a warbird vaporizing three stolen
>Vulcan vessels to prevent them from falling into enemy hands.
Rest assured, I will take a look at them. In the meantime, I can
comment on the Vulcan calcs which I have seen. I doubt the Vulcan
vessels were truly vaporized. More likely, their engine containment
was ruptured and its own reactors made their demise more spectacular.
>> >that must be taken into account when describing the effects we see on ST
>> >and SW ships when they are shown being damaged on-screen.
>>
>> Fortunately, asteroids have no such SIF technology, so no matter what,
>> ESB stands to this very day as a fairly concrete lower limit of SW
>> weapons tech.
>
>Ah now we run from ship hulls to asteroids, do we?
We do? Who's we? What is with your attitude anyway? Perhaps you've
confused me with Thela.
>Alright ST has it's own
>"concrete" examples to set lower levels of firepower with too. From the
>asteropid destruction in ST:TMP to VGR's Rise there are examples of
>asteroids and comets being destroyed or vaporized.
It is very hard to even guestimate how much energy went into the
destruction of something like an asteroid. Vaporization calcs are
useful, but being in the RAST group you're aware that phasers never
really vaporize anything. They transition matter out of the
continuum, whatever that means. Again, what you need is a site that
does scaling and related energy equations, kind of like a Trek version
of Curtis Saxton. Hopefully by someone with a relevant education that
will answer criticisms brought on by peer review.
>In the case of TNG's
>"A Matter of Time", the E-D using phasers to burn off the dust in the
>Penthra IV atmosphere as the risk of igniting the whole planet's
>atmosphere if the phaser's varience is off by only 60 GW!
I can accomplish similar phenomenon by throwing a match into a grain
silo. I don't see where we can get any kind of useful lower or upper
limits from this.
>> Ah, a disciple of Kennedy. :-) Suffice to say, there is zero
>> evidence that the warbird actually pulverized the rock ('Pegasus',
>> right?) or melted a signifigant quantity of it. Too, how wide do you
>> think that hole was, anyway?
>
>Actually you've got it ass-backwards here. There is little evidence that
>the whole glowing mass of rock filling the tunnel was melted by the
>warbird.
That's what I said.
>From dialouge, "The romulans have used their disruptors to
>destroy the chasm's entrance". We also know that the warbird must've
>dumped a conciderable amount of energy into the task as rock is still seen
>glowing more than 9 hours after the incident!
Did it? I don't recall the episode that clearly. Do you have
pictures or dialog that establishes the glowing and the time frame?
Is this on Graham's site?
>The tunnel width and length
>can be figured out quite easily as Worf noted that the E-D had travelled
>through some 2km of rock, and that there was still 1 km left to go.
>There's the length of the plug. Now for the width, we know that the tunnel
>is no less than 500 meters wide based on the ability of the 470 m wide E-D
>to pass through it to reach the USS Pegasus. However, we can see in the
>visuals that the tunnel is much wider than that. In fact, we see before
>the E-D engages the phase cloak that it has executed a 180 degree turn to
>face the tunnel entrance. The E-D according to sources is about 642 m
>long, which means quite simply that the tunnel has to be about 700 m wide
>at minimum to allow this to occur. So there you have the conservative
>"concrete" numbers for the asteroid gamma 601 tunnel dimensions. Using
>Pi*R^2*H for the approximate volume of the tunnel, we get over 1 billion
>cubic meters of rock conservatively that was pulverized at the very least,
>and pushed, or allowed to slide into the tunnel and plug it up.
Ok, I now see where you're coming from. So how much energy does it
take to crush 1 billion cubic meters of rock? I have no idea,
especially since the destruction was not shown.
>> Janeway and Seven, he states >that it will take only "A few hours" to
>> travel back along the nearly 1,000 >LY (conservative) distance to Borg
>> space. That means that it would only >take a matter of a couple weeks
>> at most for the Dauntless to travel across >the Milky Way galaxy! The
>> Quantum Slipstream drive used in "Timeless" was >considerably faster
>> than this, or any SW hyperspace. Travelling the 60,000 >LY distance
>> within a few minutes time, or about 500,000,000 times c!
>
>>
>> Since I am ignorant of the source here, could you enlighten me about
>> the circumstances/dialog that brought you to this conclusion.
>
>I've already mention most of it for both "Timeless", and "Hope and
>Fear". Perhaps if you were a little specific as to what you don't
>understand, I'd be more able to enlighten you here. Arturis tells Janeway
>and Seven quite plainly in "Hope and Fear" that it will take "Only a few
>hours" to reach Borg space. We know that Voyager has been travelling for
>about nine months since Kes threw the vessel 10,000 ly in "The Gift". We
>know that Voyager travels an average of 1,000 LY a year on conventional
>warp (75,000 ly/70 years travel time to get home = 1,071 LY per
>year). That equates to 83.33 ly per month average, or 750 ly minimum since
>"The Gift". Let's say that Arturis' "few hours" = 3 hours travel
>time. That means 250 ly per hour, or 25,000 ly per every four days, or
>eight to nine days to reach the 60,000 ly distant Alpha quadrent.
Ok, then this is several times slower than what is apparently a rather
average ship seen in TPM.
> In
>"Timeless", it literally only takes minutes to reach the outer edges of
>the Alpha quadrent *period*. There is nothing more concrete, and simple
>than that.
What was the distance traveled? How do we know this?
>> >We do know by the time of the 29th century in the ST universe, that
>> >Federation vessels will have the capability to travel not only
>> anywhere >in the Milky Way galaxy they want to in scant minutes, but
>> travel back na >d forth in time with near impunity as witnessed in
>> "Future's End", and >"Relativity". If the SW tech is head of ST in
>> some areas, it's not more >than a few centuries at best.
>>
>> Yes, and right about now, we should be overrun with Khan and his
>> bioengineered soldiers. The future... it's always changing. The
>> point is that if SW met up with most known ST conventional races RIGHT
>> NOW, they would have the edge.
>
>But the arguement is about the Empire vs Borg, not Empire vs the Kazon
>Nistrum! The Borg have many of the advantages of the Empire *now*.
What? That's not what I was saying. TOS told us that right now in
present day earth we would be nearly conquered by a race of
bioengineered supermen headed by a guy named Khan. We know that did
not turn out that way. It didn't even happen that way in DS9
timeline, because Benjamin actually visited that time period, and
there was zero evidence of a Eugenics war. That's messed up.
My only point is just that the performance of a theorhetical 29th
century Federation means nothing in defence of the "present" ST
galaxy. I still feel that while the Borg would be no pushovers, they
would fall to the Empire. I think that most of the Alpha Quadrant
races would be completely devastated by the Empire. I conceed that
S8742 could pose a signifigant threat to the Empire's war machine, but
hesitate to chalk up a win to ST because we have so little evidence to
go on in that conflict.
In conclusion, while the borg might be within an order of magnitude of
the capabilities of the Empire, I think the Empire would win, if
nothing else than because the borg are pretty stupid, tactics and
strategy wise.
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
Aron Kerkhof
<ja...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>Aron Kerkhof wrote:
>
>> In the novelization of ANH Tarkin states something to the effect that
>> the Death Star would give them firm control over the "million worlds
>> or the Empire."
>
>So Tarkin's statement is directly disagreeing with what you say below;
>he believes that the DS alone will give control of a million worlds, and
>this is something less than 1 ship per world.
This is incorrect. ISD's lack the raw firepower needed to penetrate
many of the affluent core world's defensive shields. Thus, if they
wanted to rebel, they just put up their shields, thumb their nose at
the Emperor, and that would be that. The Death Star changed all that.
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
Aron Kerkhof
<mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Aron Kerkhof wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:14:40 GMT, Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> we aslo remind you that the New Republic was very worried about Admiral
>> >> Thrawn getting ahold of the 200 Katana fleet dreadnaughts in HTE?
>> >
>> >200 dreadnoughts would upset the balance of power, which is enough of a
>> >reason to be worried. If I have 200 more ships than you do, then I can
>> >cause damage by using them as a mobile force.
>>
>> Just wanted to point out that this was also the Imperial AND New
>> Republic forces at a very low ebb. They are at the tail end of a five
>> year civil war, where obviously the Empire nor the New Republic have
>> 25,000 SD's to throw around. So 200 ships could in fact turn the tide
>> of the war.
>
>
>Which just goes to show that the SW galaxy does have it's limitations on
>production capability.
It shows only that the Empire can lose an attrition war against a foe
with equivalent ships and resources.
>No doubt there are those in the Galactic Empire who
>wish that the production resources were'nt wasted on the five Death Stars,
>and put into building ships and planetary fortifications instead.
According to the Imperials circa HTTE, that assessment is wrong. The
Empire did not lose due to any military weakness. It lost because the
people overthrew it with superior resolve and strategy.
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
Jonathan Willis
> They built a Death Star BECAUSE THEIR SHIELD TECHNOLOGY IS SO ADVANCED
> THAT THEY CAN WRAP AN ENTIRE PLANET IN A SHIELD SO POWERFUL AS TO
> INVALIDATE ANY CONVENTIONAL BOMBARDMENT. That's where the Death
> Star's 1E38 J come in handy.
Yet both Han (who'd been to the Imperial academy), Luke, and even
Obi-Wan seemed surprised by the planets destruction. Planet-killing
firepower was a new thing to SW as of ANH.
> Yet they seem to use the LOWER limits far more often than quoting the
> inflated upper limits they have access to. I point out that this is
Wrong. The lower limit is about 1e16 J based on the asteroid vaporising,
and they never use this. They use the much higher _estimates_ they make
based on unproven assumptions, which can put ISD firepower at up to
planet killing levels or more.
> the exact opposite that Trek does, bandying about upper limits of
> weapons and power outputs casually assuming 100% efficiency and other
> nonsense. But hey... whatever floats your boat.
Where have you been? For some time now most Trekkies have been claiming
GCS weapon/shield strengths of about 1e17 J, which the great phrophet of
the SW side (Mike Wong) actually agrees with.
> Semi-true. The death star did carry amazing firepower, yet it only
> had little greater than half the starfleets. So somewhere around
> 12,500 ISD's could duplicate the Death Star's efforts, if all their
> weapons systems were combined. That's scary stuff.
Where does it say "a little greater"? Dodonna only said the DS had
firepower greater, which using a literal interpretation just means than
half the fleet has less than 1e38 J. Besides, given that ISDs cannot
destroy planets (anybody got a reference to an ISD destroying a planet?)
Dodonna cannot have been talking about the superlaser unless the
Imperial fleet numbers in the billions, which contradicts official
sources so it cannot be true.
Jonathan Willis
> And yet, there are still billions of ships in the SW galaxy. See
> Thelea's analysis.
I will. Where is it?
> The entire galaxy has been mapped, and even if it hasn't, a very
> reasonable number of probe droids could complete the task in under three
> months. This is mapping _every_ single cubic lightyear of the entire
> galaxy as well.
Mapped sure, but actually explored by part of the Republic/New Order?
Tarkin says in the novel of ANH that the Empire controls "a million
worlds", which is one system in 100,000 or so. Even assuming he's only
refering to major worlds, the Empire probably only controls up to about
1 system in 1,000 at most.
> The first world it met would send out a distress call, which would be
> received instantly across the entire galaxy.
Okay sure, but by this time the Borg already have assimilated much SW
tech plus millions of drones. Send some off in ships quickly to
assimilate other worlds, the rest dig in and hide, preferably under a
planetary shield.
> They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
> arisen.
Not true, because I at least have written several challenges to them
which went unanswered.
> In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute lower
> limits for SW.
Not true. Lets start with his city estimate; he assumes "a large city"
means 20 billion people. Here in NZ we consider Auckland (1.5 million) a
large city, and even elsewhere in our world any city of a few million is
large. There are a few cities in the SW galaxy of trillions of people,
but how do we know what they consider large? It could be anywhere from
millions (which suggests energies at about the asteroid lower limit) to
trillions (which suggests 1e26 J per shot), and is obviously far too
wide a range to be useful.
> I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
> Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
> canon information directly from the movies.
And we can prove this wrong straight out with the fact that the fleet at
Hoth didn't just destroy the planet and the fact that Han and Luke found
Alderann's destruction incredible. PLanet destroying was new, or at
least not well known to people at the time of ANH. Given Han attended
the Imperial academy he should have had at least a vague idea of ISD
firepower.
> Probably others does not mean they exist. The specialized knowledge was
> nothing more than the basic military tactic of concentrating your fire
> on a visible hole in the side of the ship. Hardly anything special.
The Borg have a decentralised system, so normally concentrating fire
doesn't work. Picard specifically told the fleet to fire at a vulnerable
location.
> It is still slower than Darth Maul's Infiltrator travelled to Tatooine,
> even with the most inflated numbers possible.
I read somewhere that Darth Maul's trip was at around 50 million c. What
speed do you think he was travelling at?
> Unless you burn all life off the planet from orbit. That would be the
> most efficient way to dispose of the borg, remove their logistical
> capabilities.
If the Borg have assimilated the planet that will include planetary
shields, so you'd need a DS to destroy them. And they could mine the
system with MKNMs to destroy any DS or fleet that attacked.
> And yet, somehow, they have not managed to do anything but take over a
> rather small area of a single galaxy. This does not point to rapid
> shipbuilding.
Why not? Even a small section of the galaxy has many millions of worlds.
Even with thousands of ships it would take a long time to expand across
every single world, especially if a few of these were sufficiently
advanced to offer credible resistance.
> That they were worried about a loss of a few hundred cubes points to
> this being a large proportion of their fleet.
They weren't worried about it - the Borg hardly have emotions. But by
this stage in the war the loss of a few hundred cubes was significant.
If we knew how long it took for them to lose a few hundred cubes, or how
long the war had lasted for, we could take a guess at how big their
fleet is, but we don't know either of these things.
> If they controlled that many worlds, then they would have already taken
> over the Milky Way, hence they don't have that many worlds.
Why would they necessarily have taken over the Milky Way? We know they
recently suffered a major setback versus S8472, and we've seen several
other races hold them off for short periods, so their expansion wouldn't
be that fast.
> A black hole is no more dangerous than its mass. If you replaced our
> sun with a black hole of the same mass, the Earth would maintain exactly
> the same orbit.
And the black hole would last a very short time.
> Those would have to be awfully massive black holes to
> disrupt traffic over an entire solar system.
Thats the point of black holes; they are very massive, by definition.
The Chandrasakar(sp) limit for a star becoming a Neutron Star is about
1.4 solar masses. I can't remember what the limit is to become a black
hole, but its higher than this.
> When the SW ships detected
> themselves approaching a stellar mass, their hyperdrives would disengage
> at the standard distance. Unless they were foolish enough to approach
> the event horizon, they would be perfectly safe.
So they'd be forced to exit hyperspace much further from Coruscant, and
hence make the trip much more lengthly.
> And will promptly be set upon by an Imperial fleet, when the distress
> signal is sent over the hypernet. The Empire must patrol the majority
> of its worlds, or they could not rule by fear.
With 25,000 ISDs and a million worlds they cannot patrol more than a
fraction of their worlds at once, but they can still use a doctrine of
fear. With hyperspace speeds they can have ISDs at any particular planet
in hours, so they don't need to keep one constantly in orbit.
> They are perfectly stoppable, especially since they would send a single
> cube, which could easily be destroyed. When they sent more later,
> simply destroy the cubes you meet, and sterilize their planets.
Destroying their cubes isn't that easy. A lower limit to Borg shield
capacity (based on Wolf 359) is about 1e22 J, which is above Mike Wong's
estimates of ISD firepower.
> Such as? I would appreciate examples here, as the numbers we use here
> are on the extreme low side of those that are possible for SW.
Well the city example, he assumes "large city" is 20 billion. For BDZ he
assumes it is a literal melting of the entire surface in less than 24
hours, which there is little or no evidence for in official sources. And
for Dodonna's statement he assumes it refers to the superlaser, which is
provably not possible. All the other arguments he makes either favour
lower figures (the asteroids, the steam clouds), have no actual
calculations attached (the gigaton recoil).
> >
> > The numbers are actually much more concrete for ST, at least for a GCS -
> > 1e17 J for torpedos (a 64 MT explosive is a simple energy calculation,
> > not much debate there) and shield/phaser energies plus or minus an order
> > of magnitude.
>
> Of you want to use the concrete information for ST, then phasers are
> 1.02 GW. Anything else is not concrete.
This makes little sense given phasers are equivalent to photon torpedos.
Canon overrides official, and there are several canon scenes which prove
phasers are more than GW weapons; the drilling in Survivors is a good
example.
> Where does this number come from? A planet can be destroyed with 4
> orders of magnitude less firepower than that. We also have never seen
> the combined beam firing on a borg.
I know their shields can't handle a combined beam; thats why I called it
an _upper_ limit, ie their shields are less than this. We don't know the
firepower of an individual S8472 beam, but a Borg Cube can survive an
initial strike by one of these beams. It takes a second shot to kill
them, which implies either a shield strength or hull capacity about
equal to the energy of a S8472 shot. Even if the individual shots are a
billionth as powerful as the combined beam this is still 1e28 J.
> There is plenty of evidence. See Mike January's page for the amount of
> energy needed to destroy a fully-adapted cube. (Unless of course you
> think they weren't able to adapt to rocks flying at them, in which case,
> the drones can be mowed down by modern armies.)
It wasn't rocks, it was molten lava flung out at high velocity. And yes,
a modern army could use these as weapons against the Borg once. After
that they would adapt. Do you think the Borg have planets exploded under
them every day? And planets with pretty much the same composition and
mass of that one?
> A cube can be taken out
> by 1.5 broadsides of an ISD, and using very low estimates for SW ISD
> firepower, a galaxy class starship can be destroyed in less than a
> microsecond of a single broadside.
Using a ridiculously high estimate of ISD firepower this is true. More
reasonably it would take an ISD a couple of minutes to destroy a GCS,
and many hours to take out a Borg Cube (assuming they even can take out
the Cube).
R Mercer
Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38E1A4C2...@home.com...
>
> Of you want to use the concrete information for ST, then phasers are
> 1.02 GW. Anything else is not concrete.
>
Here is concrete for you, in regards to ST phaser output equivalancies:
A HAND phaser on setting 8 can vaporize a humanoid, this effect requires
about 201 MJ of energy to accomplish via standard EM energy inputs (I can
show the calculations, if you want).
A HAND phaser on setting 16 can vaporize 650 m^3 of material with a density
of 6g/cc. Since the TNG TM specifies that this is rock/ore I calculated the
energy required to vaporize 50% of the target material as if it was silicon
(which has a density of 2.33 g/cc), just to develop an idea of the effective
energy output equivalancy we are looking at:
Here are the calculations for setting 16, redone using Silicon as the target
material:
Si:
melting point 1683 K, boiling point 3553 K
12.1 cc/mole
Specific heat 0.71 J/gK
latent heat of fusion: 50.55 KJ/mole
latent heat of vaporization: 384.22 KJ/mole
650 m^3 volume massing a total of 1.5145e9 g
total number of moles: 5.37e7
Assuming 50% of target material undergoes domain transition:
calc energy added to get to melting point from 298 K:
7.5725e8 g x 1385 K x 0.71 J/gK = 7.45e10 J or 7.45e7 KJ
add in energy added to turn the target material liquid:
2.685e7 moles x 50.55 KJ/mole = 1.357e9 KJ
add energy to raise target temperature to boiling point (the specific heat
changes (increases) through all of this as the temp changes, but I am not
accounting for that--your actual energy requirement will be HIGHER):
7.5725e8 g x 1870 K x 0.71 J/gK = 1e12 J or 1e9 KJ
add in energy required to vaporize the target material:
2.685e7 moles x 384.22 KJ/mole = 1.03e10 KJ.
As is shown above, you can ignore everything except the final energy
calculation (in this instance)and you will still end up with a figure that
is close to the energy required (because of the magnitude differences
involved). Total energy necessary to achieve this effect (explosive
decoupling of 650 m^3 of rock with 50% disintegration): 1.275e10 KJ or 12.47
TJ.
If all of the target material is transitioned, then total effective energy
output is 12.5 TJ.
The effective power output of setting 16 is about 208 times that of all 4
cannons on an x-wing (using Wong's estimation of that output).
All this is from a weapon that is powered by a battery, with an emitter
crystal that you can hold in your fist (<8cc in volume). A Type X phaser
emitter has a volume of 9.95e6 cc and is powered by the ship's warp core.
If I give a extremely conservative estimate of its output, by saying it is
merely 1000 times more powerful than the hand phaser on setting 16, then
(with a similar setting in regards to SEM:NDF ratio as that of the hand
phaser on 16), I have an effective output of 12,500 TJ--for one emitter.
Total effective output of the main saucer phaser array on a GCS would be
2,500,000 TJ and this array has a recharge firing rate of <0.5 seconds, so
output would be 10.2e6 TW. This is probably LOW.
If I extrapolate type X emiiter capacity on the basis of volume, then I end
up with the following:
The Type X has a volume ~1,243,750 times greater than the hand phaser. If
I draw a direct proportion between the two, then effective output of a Type
X emitter could be as high as 15,546,875 TJ with a total array output of
3,109,375,000 TJ. This is probably high<g>. However, if I compare this
figure to ISD capabilities, using the 31,000 TJ asteroid vaporization energy
for TLs calculated by Wong, et al... heck, lets double it to 62,000 TJ to
make sure we are in the ballpark, with 200 TLs with this average output
(since some will be LTLs, some MTLs, and some HTLs) you have an output of
12,400,000 TJ... 1/250th of the effective output of a single array on a
GCS. Using these numbers, a GCS has a total firepower equivalent to 500
ISDs, all concentrated in one package... without considering either photon
or quantum torpedoes.
Since GCS shields can repel this level of firepower for several seconds, it
would take more than 500 ISDs to destroy said GCS.
ACTUAL output equivalancy is somewhere between those two numbers, most
likely... probably a lot close to the lower number than the higher number,
but also probably a couple of orders of magnitude higher than the low end
number.
Using a different approach based upon taget material density (which is
actually a more determinant factor in phaser effectiveness than the
vaporization energy, since, in reality, the phaser isn't actually vaporizing
anything, merely phasing it out of this level of reality):
A hand phaser at setting 16 essentially vaporizes 650 m^3 of 6g/cc material.
IIRC, the density of iron is around 7.3 g/cc so we will call it 8, for
simplicity. Using a direct proportion on density this would reduce the
volume of iron vaporized to 487.5 m^3 and using the same proportions as
above to get to the Type X output, a single emitter will vape 487,500 m^3 of
iron (3,558,750,000 kg ). This does not deem unreasonable when we remember
that, in a TNG episode (with the recovery of the phasing cloak) the E-D is
trapped inside an asteroid by a Romulan Warbird that seals the opening that
the E-D used to fly into the interior of the asteroid..and we are given no
indication as to what level of power was used to do this.
This is roughly equivalent in output to 108 of the TL bolts considered in
the asteroid vaporization calculations (and this is ONE Type X emitter)...
total output of the saucer main dorsal array is 200 times this... 1.95e9
m^3 (or a cube 1240 meters on a side)--equal to 21,600 TL bolts.
And remember, GCS shields can repel this level of firepower for several
seconds, as a minimum (otherwise, why bother with shields?).
This implies a couple of things:
Based on this data, most ST ships (excelsior class and above and probably
Defiant, as well)would wipe the floor with any ISD or small group (10 or
less)of ISDs while taking no damage in return... no relying on fancy warp
maneuvers, no use of torpedoes, no character shields or fancy technobabble
tricks, just a straight out slugfest.
All of the data that I used is available in an official source (TNG TM)
and/or is viewable/hearable in various episodes/movies (Canon sources).
Physical data for elements and whatnot was derived from a variety of
internet sources, since I no longer have my CRC Handbook (gee, maybe I
should buy a new one).
Now....
I have done this to demonstrate that ANYBODY can play with numbers, and
given a modicum of engineering/science background and a careful selection of
the baseline data and well-rationalized (or even not so well rationalized,
if you can get people to buy them) progressive assumptions, you can pretty
much prove whatever you want. I can come up with this, and its been 17
years since I have done any thermodynamics or nuclear physics work. Imagine
what I could come up with if I really knew the physics.....
In conclusion, please keep your empty arguments in svs, where they belong.
Thank you and HAND.
Graeme Dice
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
>
> > And yet, there are still billions of ships in the SW galaxy. See
> > Thelea's analysis.
>
> I will. Where is it?
There's at least five copies floating around ASVS right now.
>
> > The entire galaxy has been mapped, and even if it hasn't, a very
> > reasonable number of probe droids could complete the task in under three
> > months. This is mapping _every_ single cubic lightyear of the entire
> > galaxy as well.
>
> Mapped sure, but actually explored by part of the Republic/New Order?
> Tarkin says in the novel of ANH that the Empire controls "a million
> worlds", which is one system in 100,000 or so. Even assuming he's only
> refering to major worlds, the Empire probably only controls up to about
> 1 system in 1,000 at most.
Mapping = exploring. You can't map something unless you explore it.
>
> > The first world it met would send out a distress call, which would be
> > received instantly across the entire galaxy.
>
> Okay sure, but by this time the Borg already have assimilated much SW
> tech plus millions of drones. Send some off in ships quickly to
> assimilate other worlds, the rest dig in and hide, preferably under a
> planetary shield.
They wouldn't be able to take over a planet that had a planetary shield,
as no amount of firepower they can muster can bring them down.
>
> > They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
> > arisen.
>
> Not true, because I at least have written several challenges to them
> which went unanswered.
I've never seen any that haven't been answered, and refuted.
>
> > In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute lower
> > limits for SW.
>
> Not true. Lets start with his city estimate; he assumes "a large city"
> means 20 billion people. Here in NZ we consider Auckland (1.5 million) a
> large city, and even elsewhere in our world any city of a few million is
> large. There are a few cities in the SW galaxy of trillions of people,
> but how do we know what they consider large? It could be anywhere from
> millions (which suggests energies at about the asteroid lower limit) to
> trillions (which suggests 1e26 J per shot), and is obviously far too
> wide a range to be useful.
That's not the estimate he uses for his general firepower of an ISD
though, is it.
> And we can prove this wrong straight out with the fact that the fleet at
> Hoth didn't just destroy the planet and the fact that Han and Luke found
> Alderann's destruction incredible.
They didn't destroy the planet, which had Luke on it. In case you
didn't notice it, capturing Luke was the entire purpose behind the
movie.
> PLanet destroying was new, or at
> least not well known to people at the time of ANH. Given Han attended
> the Imperial academy he should have had at least a vague idea of ISD
> firepower.
Which again is because SW planetary shields can repel planet-killing
firepower. The death star has far more the planet killing power.
> The Borg have a decentralised system, so normally concentrating fire
> doesn't work. Picard specifically told the fleet to fire at a vulnerable
> location.
It should always work. If you blow a hole to the large hollow interior
of the ship, then any torps you shoot in there will concentrate their
damage, and the shrapnel from explosions will be magnified. You
_always_ concentrate your firepower if you want to win.
>
> > It is still slower than Darth Maul's Infiltrator travelled to Tatooine,
> > even with the most inflated numbers possible.
>
> I read somewhere that Darth Maul's trip was at around 50 million c. What
> speed do you think he was travelling at?
He travelled from Coruscant to Tatooine in under 24 hours. This is half
a galaxy in less than a day, which is still faster than the fastest
example for slipstream.
> If the Borg have assimilated the planet that will include planetary
> shields, so you'd need a DS to destroy them. And they could mine the
> system with MKNMs to destroy any DS or fleet that attacked.
They can't assimilate a planet with SW level planetary shields, because
they can't bring the shields down.
>
> > And yet, somehow, they have not managed to do anything but take over a
> > rather small area of a single galaxy. This does not point to rapid
> > shipbuilding.
>
> Why not? Even a small section of the galaxy has many millions of worlds.
> Even with thousands of ships it would take a long time to expand across
> every single world, especially if a few of these were sufficiently
> advanced to offer credible resistance.
They have been around for close to ten-thousand years. They have had
plenty of time to conquer the galaxy.
> They weren't worried about it - the Borg hardly have emotions. But by
> this stage in the war the loss of a few hundred cubes was significant.
> If we knew how long it took for them to lose a few hundred cubes, or how
> long the war had lasted for, we could take a guess at how big their
> fleet is, but we don't know either of these things.
We know that a few hundred cubes was a large loss. This is enough to
show that it is a major percentage of their fleet at the time. If I
have 1000 ships, and I lose 100 of them, that is a major loss whether
they were lost in a day, or in a year.
>
> > If they controlled that many worlds, then they would have already taken
> > over the Milky Way, hence they don't have that many worlds.
>
> Why would they necessarily have taken over the Milky Way? We know they
> recently suffered a major setback versus S8472, and we've seen several
> other races hold them off for short periods, so their expansion wouldn't
> be that fast.
With the kinds of numbers and capabilities you attribute to the borg,
they should be able to simply ignore any body they can't assimilate and
flow around them. In 10000 years, they have managed to expand their
borders by (at the most) 1 light year per year.
>
> > A black hole is no more dangerous than its mass. If you replaced our
> > sun with a black hole of the same mass, the Earth would maintain exactly
> > the same orbit.
>
> And the black hole would last a very short time.
A black hole the mass of our sun would last for a reasonable length of
time. The Chandrasekhar limit is the mass of a white dwarf that will
collapse into a black hole. This is equal to about 1.4 times the mass
of our sun. A black hole with the mass of our sun would most likely
take a while to evaporate.(Anyone have the exact numbers?)
>
> > Those would have to be awfully massive black holes to
> > disrupt traffic over an entire solar system.
>
> Thats the point of black holes; they are very massive, by definition.
Yes, but that mass can still be avoided if you keep your distance.
> The Chandrasakar(sp) limit for a star becoming a Neutron Star is about
> 1.4 solar masses. I can't remember what the limit is to become a black
> hole, but its higher than this.
>
That is the limit to become a black hole.
> > When the SW ships detected
> > themselves approaching a stellar mass, their hyperdrives would disengage
> > at the standard distance. Unless they were foolish enough to approach
> > the event horizon, they would be perfectly safe.
>
> So they'd be forced to exit hyperspace much further from Coruscant, and
> hence make the trip much more lengthly.
Not noticeably, as the sub-light speeds of SW ships are high enough to
make interplanetary travel possible in minimal time. Watch the DS
battle in ANH to see the speeds these ships are capable of.
>
> > And will promptly be set upon by an Imperial fleet, when the distress
> > signal is sent over the hypernet. The Empire must patrol the majority
> > of its worlds, or they could not rule by fear.
>
> With 25,000 ISDs and a million worlds they cannot patrol more than a
> fraction of their worlds at once, but they can still use a doctrine of
> fear. With hyperspace speeds they can have ISDs at any particular planet
> in hours, so they don't need to keep one constantly in orbit.
They had a standing fleet of about 5 ships at Bakura, which was an
unimporant rim world. There are far more ships than simply ISD's in the
Empire. Those are simply the most noticeable, being produced in the
last 30 years.
>
> > They are perfectly stoppable, especially since they would send a single
> > cube, which could easily be destroyed. When they sent more later,
> > simply destroy the cubes you meet, and sterilize their planets.
>
> Destroying their cubes isn't that easy. A lower limit to Borg shield
> capacity (based on Wolf 359) is about 1e22 J, which is above Mike Wong's
> estimates of ISD firepower.
You forget that battles are not decided on a single broadside. The
typical ISD can supply this much firepower in about three minutes.
>
> > Such as? I would appreciate examples here, as the numbers we use here
> > are on the extreme low side of those that are possible for SW.
>
> Well the city example, he assumes "large city" is 20 billion. For BDZ he
> assumes it is a literal melting of the entire surface in less than 24
> hours, which there is little or no evidence for in official sources. And
> for Dodonna's statement he assumes it refers to the superlaser, which is
> provably not possible.
Which is wrong, as Behind The Magic clearly states that this quote was
referring specifically to the superlaser. There is no evidence to
suggest that Dodonna was _not_ referring to the superlaser, and if you
want to argue this point, I suggest you look up the thread "ST Invades"
from about a year ago.
> All the other arguments he makes either favour
> lower figures (the asteroids, the steam clouds), have no actual
> calculations attached (the gigaton recoil).
>
> > Of you want to use the concrete information for ST, then phasers are
> > 1.02 GW. Anything else is not concrete.
>
> This makes little sense given phasers are equivalent to photon torpedos.
> Canon overrides official, and there are several canon scenes which prove
> phasers are more than GW weapons; the drilling in Survivors is a good
> example.
>
That was the firing of phasers into rock, which is highly susceptible to
the NDF effect.
> > Where does this number come from? A planet can be destroyed with 4
> > orders of magnitude less firepower than that. We also have never seen
> > the combined beam firing on a borg.
>
> I know their shields can't handle a combined beam; thats why I called it
> an _upper_ limit, ie their shields are less than this. We don't know the
> firepower of an individual S8472 beam, but a Borg Cube can survive an
> initial strike by one of these beams. It takes a second shot to kill
> them, which implies either a shield strength or hull capacity about
> equal to the energy of a S8472 shot. Even if the individual shots are a
> billionth as powerful as the combined beam this is still 1e28 J.
Are you using Chuck's numbers for the energy involved in the planetary
destruction here? If not, then you should be. The destruction of the
planet by S8472 was _far_ less energetic than the destruction of
Alderaan.
>
> > There is plenty of evidence. See Mike January's page for the amount of
> > energy needed to destroy a fully-adapted cube. (Unless of course you
> > think they weren't able to adapt to rocks flying at them, in which case,
> > the drones can be mowed down by modern armies.)
>
> It wasn't rocks, it was molten lava flung out at high velocity.
Molten lava is rocks. We can roughly calculate how much energy the borg
received from this example.
> And yes,
> a modern army could use these as weapons against the Borg once. After
> that they would adapt.
Not necessarily.
> Do you think the Borg have planets exploded under
> them every day? And planets with pretty much the same composition and
> mass of that one?
That shouldn't matter. The borg have had other planets exploded on them
by S8472. The composition of a planet matters little when all you care
about are the rocks hitting you. The planet can not be significantly
different from any other borg planet, or they would not be using it.
Using a planet that is not suited to you would be inefficient.
>
> > A cube can be taken out
> > by 1.5 broadsides of an ISD, and using very low estimates for SW ISD
> > firepower, a galaxy class starship can be destroyed in less than a
> > microsecond of a single broadside.
>
> Using a ridiculously high estimate of ISD firepower this is true. More
> reasonably it would take an ISD a couple of minutes to destroy a GCS,
> and many hours to take out a Borg Cube (assuming they even can take out
> the Cube).
More reasonably, it would take three minutes to destroy the cube. A GCS
would go down in nanoseconds.
At the absolute minimum, point-defense TL's are 1.5E15 J. A Photorp is
at the absolute
maximum 2.7E17 J. This means at the very minimum SW estimates, 180 hits
will be equivalent to a pho-torp. The 100 small TL's on an ISD can fire
about once every 1.5 s, so this gives the shields an expected lifetime
(using a q-torp power of twice that of a photorp and a figure of 6.46E18
J for shields(which is based on 24 direct photorp impacts) of around
64.8 s. If we factor in the six heavy TL's with 1.9E17 J of firepower
each, it will take 34 hits from these weapons alone, which would take
8.5 s. Combined, the absolute minimum firepower of a single ISD could
demolish these shields in 7.5 s. If this is the
expected performance of GCS shielding level shielding, then Federation
ships will be destroyed by the hundreds. These numbers also use the
absolute lowest reasonable estimates of firepower possible. For a much
more realistic estimate, we would use the ANH calcs which provide a
firepower for ISD's of at least 1E26 watts. This would knock down ST
level shielding in approximately 64.8 nanoseconds.
Graeme Dice
--
If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains.
Matthew Hyde
In alt.startrek.vs.starwars Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
> Jonathan Willis wrote:
> >
> > Not true. Lets start with his city estimate; he assumes "a large city"
> > means 20 billion people. Here in NZ we consider Auckland (1.5 million) a
> > large city, and even elsewhere in our world any city of a few million is
> > large. There are a few cities in the SW galaxy of trillions of people,
> > but how do we know what they consider large? It could be anywhere from
> > millions (which suggests energies at about the asteroid lower limit) to
> > trillions (which suggests 1e26 J per shot), and is obviously far too
> > wide a range to be useful.
> That's not the estimate he uses for his general firepower of an ISD
> though, is it.
You fool! Watts and people are interchangeable!
--
You gotta fight for your right to parity.
Graeme Dice
>
> Aron Kerkhof wrote:
>
<snip>
> > Yet they seem to use the LOWER limits far more often than quoting the
> > inflated upper limits they have access to. I point out that this is
>
> Wrong. The lower limit is about 1e16 J based on the asteroid vaporising,
> and they never use this. They use the much higher _estimates_ they make
> based on unproven assumptions, which can put ISD firepower at up to
> planet killing levels or more.
>
> > the exact opposite that Trek does, bandying about upper limits of
> > weapons and power outputs casually assuming 100% efficiency and other
> > nonsense. But hey... whatever floats your boat.
>
> Where have you been? For some time now most Trekkies have been claiming
> GCS weapon/shield strengths of about 1e17 J, which the great phrophet of
> the SW side (Mike Wong) actually agrees with.
When you use these numbers, a GCS will last for no more than 1 broad
side. At 1E15 J for a single point defense TL of which there are ~100
on an SD, and 1.9E17 J for a single heavy TL of which there are ~6,
these shields will last for about 0.12 s. If we assume that the heavy
TL will never hit a GCS, then the shields will last for 1.5 s. Both
these numbers for individual TL were derived from the asteroid calcs,
although the heavy figure is less certain. If we use your number for
firepower on the order of 1E16 J per broadside, then the shields will
last for 15 seconds. That is barely enough time for the ST captain to
order shields up.
>
> > Semi-true. The death star did carry amazing firepower, yet it only
> > had little greater than half the starfleets. So somewhere around
> > 12,500 ISD's could duplicate the Death Star's efforts, if all their
> > weapons systems were combined. That's scary stuff.
>
> Where does it say "a little greater"? Dodonna only said the DS had
> firepower greater, which using a literal interpretation just means than
> half the fleet has less than 1e38 J.
It is greater than half the starfleet, which implies it is less than the
entire starfleet.
> Besides, given that ISDs cannot
> destroy planets (anybody got a reference to an ISD destroying a planet?)
> Dodonna cannot have been talking about the superlaser unless the
> Imperial fleet numbers in the billions, which contradicts official
> sources so it cannot be true.
Fleets numbering in the billions are actually supported by more sources
than those numbering in the thousands.
Chris
<ja...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
<snip>
>
>Thats the point of black holes; they are very massive, by definition.
>The Chandrasakar(sp) limit for a star becoming a Neutron Star is about
>1.4 solar masses. I can't remember what the limit is to become a black
>hole, but its higher than this.
>
<snip>
Acutaly, if I remember my texbooks correctly, it's ~1.3 solar masses
to become a Neutron Star (becomes a white dwarf if less), and just
over 1.4 to become a black hole. I can look them up next time I'm
over at my GF's house (she's got the textbooks now...)
Dalton
>
> Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
>
> [snip - responding only to one point]
>
> >They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
> >limits for SW. I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
> >Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
> >canon information directly from the movies.
>
> WHY THE HECK WOULD THEY NEED TO BUILD A #$@% DEATHSTAR????
>
Did you read this part? "I can make a perfectly valid argument for..."
[snip]
The rest of this is rendered irrelevant coz you missed that one line.
He's not claiming it, he's just saying he could argue it. There's a
difference.
--
Dalton | AIM: RobPDalton | ICQ: 50342303
Don't even get me started.
Da ASVS Fanfic Archive: [http://members.xoom.com/Tiny11380/fanfics]
Generic Star Wars Fan
and I hgave you calculations, which everyone conveniently on the Str Wars
side, forgot to put tdown in these posts. Accoring to me, they should have
around 34 million cubes.
--
I CAN HEAR PIXIES TALKING TO ME. AND LEPRECHAUNS AND GOBLINS AND SOMETIMES
EVEN ESKIMOS.
Aron Kerkhof <aronk@-spamerific-galactec.com> wrote in message
news:Q67iOJ9fRdTWX7Un=YH7sT...@4ax.com...
Dalton
>
> "Generic Star Wars Fan" <wey...@btinternet.com.DESPAM> wrote:
>
> >our galaxy is no 120000 ly accress. It is more ythan that tisnt it?
>
> >no
>
> >wait sorry, what am I saying
>
> >of course your right
>
> 100 000 ly across is the figure I've always been told.
> ( one hundred thousand lightyears)
Ours is that, the SW galaxy is 120,000.
> that, of course, is across the disk. Not sure what the maximum
> distance from the "top" of the nucleus to the "bottom" is..
> ( the galaxy is shaped a bit like the saucer section of the
> Enterprise-A) :-)
>
I think the maximum is a few hundred.
> Though there is not actual "edge".. the stars and interstellar matter
> (dust, gas, etc) just get more and more thinly spread.
>
That would be the halo of the galaxy...
> By contrast, the Andromeda galaxy (about the same size) is around 2
> million ly away - 20 times the width of the Milky Way galaxy.
I think there are a couple of smaller galaxies a bit closer.
--
Dalton | AIM: RobPDalton | ICQ: 50342303
MY BRAIN HURTS!
Dalton
>
> In alt.startrek.vs.starwars Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
> > Jonathan Willis wrote:
> > >
> > > Not true. Lets start with his city estimate; he assumes "a large city"
> > > means 20 billion people. Here in NZ we consider Auckland (1.5 million) a
> > > large city, and even elsewhere in our world any city of a few million is
> > > large. There are a few cities in the SW galaxy of trillions of people,
> > > but how do we know what they consider large? It could be anywhere from
> > > millions (which suggests energies at about the asteroid lower limit) to
> > > trillions (which suggests 1e26 J per shot), and is obviously far too
> > > wide a range to be useful.
>
> > That's not the estimate he uses for his general firepower of an ISD
> > though, is it.
>
> You fool! Watts and people are interchangeable!
>
I'm a lightbulb.
--
Dalton | AIM: RobPDalton | ICQ: 50342303
"Please, Captain! ...Not in front of the Klingons!"
Dalton
>
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:26:34 +1200, Jonathan Willis
> <ja...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> >The Chandrasakar(sp) limit for a star becoming a Neutron Star is about
> >1.4 solar masses. I can't remember what the limit is to become a black
> >hole, but its higher than this.
> >
>
> Acutaly, if I remember my texbooks correctly, it's ~1.3 solar masses
> to become a Neutron Star (becomes a white dwarf if less), and just
> over 1.4 to become a black hole. I can look them up next time I'm
> over at my GF's house (she's got the textbooks now...)
I think between 1.4 and 3 is a NS, less than 1.4 a WD, and more than 3 a
BH.
--
Dalton | AIM: RobPDalton | ICQ: 50342303
Did Captain Picard ever flip the bird?
Commander Thelea
Since Remarq doesn't allow Cross-posting, apparently, I am re-
posting this again so that all of you involved on this debate
from rec.arts.startrek.tech can read by study of the Imperial
fleet size...
And please note, for some of you who think otherwise, I do NOT
think that ISDs have enough firepower to destroy even an
unshielded planet, and hence why these fleet sizes are supported
by the Ddonna Calculations.
Here's something that will answer all of those nagging
questions about the size of the Imperial Starfleet. It is based
entirely on Canon and Official information, with considerable
research into the naval practices of the Galactic Empire and
comparable governments on Earth to fill in the gaps; Consider
this to be the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM for the Imperial Starfleet based
on all currently availible information, but it is NOT random; I
will explain each estimation below it's listings. This figures
are based on the WEG "One Million Member Worlds and 50 million
Colonies, Proctectorates and Governorships" statement.
Sector Group: 2 Mobile Deepdocks; 120 Very Heavy Repair Ships;
2,260 Non-combatant resupply ships; 240 Torpedo Spheres; 28,372
Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 11,902
Heavy Frigates/Light Destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 80 Heavy
Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long.
Calculated using the full augmentation for each force inside a
Sector Group, at maximum ships for each line. It's safe to
assume that since the book is set immedietly after Yavin, that
by the time of Endor, all sector fleets would be at this
strength, considering Imperial manufacturing capabilities as
based on the second Death Star, which was built secretly, after
all.
Sector Groups (Total): 3,200 Mobile Deepdocks, 192,000 Very
Heavy Repair Ships; 3,616,000 Non-combatant resupply ships;
384,000 Torpedo Spheres; 45,395,200 Corvettes/Gunships/Light
Frigates 101-449 meters long; 19,043,200 Heavy Frigates/Light
Destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 128,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-
1,600 meters long.
Based on the 1,026 Sector estimate based on the Phantom Menace,
and giving it a total of 1,600 Sector Groups based on a rough
estimate of the number of Sector Groups assigned
to "Oversectors", 250 Sector Groups hidden in the Unknown
Regions, those hidden in the Deep Core, and any additional
sectors that might have been added since the time of The Phantom
Menace.. The Empire was almost certainly highly expansionistic.
Colonies, Protectorates and Governorship defence fleets:
300,000,000 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters
long; 300,000,000 Non-Hyperdrive equipped Light Picket Ships;
50,000,000 multi-purpose defence stations.
Based on using the Bakuran defence force of two 350 meter long
light frigates (Carrack Cruisers) and 4 125 meter long gunships,
along with one multi-purpose orbital station, and a patrol group
of 6 IPV-1 picket ships that was mentioned in the Truce at
Bakura sourcebook by WEG.
Member World defence fleets: 2,000,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-
1,600 meters long; 6,000,000 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates
101-449 meters long; 6,000,000 Non-Hyperdrive Equipped Light
Picket Ships; 2,000,000 Golan-III Battlestations (Or firepower
equivlant in larger number of smaller stations.); 1,000,000
Multi-purpose defence stations.
I used the two Golan-IIIs as a firepower representation, and
also based on the two guarding Coruscant that were presumably
captured from the Empire, during "The Krytos Trap". The Heavy
Destroyers (ISDs) are based on the assumption that the two left
behind by Ysanne Isard were part of Coruscant's defence fleet.
There was no reason to leave them behind otherwise; Considering
how few ships she had, she needed them badly. It would only make
sense to leave them behind if they were part of Coruscant's
traditional defence fleet. This figure has limited support from
several comics as well that suggest atleast one ISD is stationed
above major worlds at all times. The rest of the fleet is
identical to that in size and ship-types to a Colony world's
fleet, assuming that the heavier platforms and ships are added
on for the member worlds to that standard fleet.
Imperial Navy: 25,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long;
5,000 Light/Medium Cruisers 1,601 meters long to 4,999 meters
long; 5,000 Heavy
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Carriers/Battleships/Commandships 5,000
meters to 17,600+ meters long (Estimated max superlaser
equipped: 250.) Also: 1 Un-augmented Systems Bombard Group.
Based on the "25,000 ISD" claim from WEG for the Imperial Navy.
This claim was highly odd, because WEG's own figures suggest a
minimum of 128,000 ISDs in their Order of Battle. Likewise was
the claim that only 6 Torpedo Spheres were in service when the
Order of Battle suggested over 300,000 Torpedo Spheres (Which
made me conclude the idea of finding weaknesses in planetary
shields was hogwash; With one bombardment fleet and one assault
fleet, you'd have 200 Torpedo spheres, IE, 10,000 proton
torpedoes a salvo, firing at the shields. That would batter them
down using pure firepower, especially if the other armed ships
joined in.). I chose a different interpetation; The 6 Torpedo
Spheres and 25,000 ISDs are in the "Imperial Navy" according to
WEG. In the Canon movies, it's always called the "Imperial
Starfleet". Therefore, I concluded that the ENTIRE Imperial
Starfleet has far more ISDs and Torpedo Spheres, while there is
a group of the Imperial Starfleet specifically devoted to heavy
combat engagements as opposed to "Coast Guard" style work that
the Sector Groups and planetary defence forces work on. This
fleet contains the 25,000 ISDs and 6 Torpedo Spheres, along with
the following ships: A minimum of 5,000 ships larger than ISDs,
as based on a 5 ISD escort for the Executor at Hoth. However,
according to one computer game (Which are official according to
Curtis Saxton's interpetation; by the rules of the FAQ,
disregard the 10,000 figure and use the 5,000 figure), a ESB
Arcada Game, another ship larger than ISDs participated at Hoth,
namely, in the search for the Falcon, though was not at the
initial attack; it possibly had a slower Hyperdrive, and it Lord
Vader's haste, he left it behind. I concluded then that three of
the ISDs would be the Executor's escort, and two that of the
other ship. From this, I derived the 10,000 heavy ship figure,
split evenly between light and medium cruisers and vessels
larger than that. The one un-augmented systems bombard group
contains the six Torpedo Spheres assigned to the Imperial Navy
and some escorts. I was two damned lazy to re-do all the figures
after I realized it was necessary.
Totals for the Imperial Starfleet: 3,200 Mobile Deepdocks,
192,000 Very Heavy Repair Ships; 3,616,000 Non-combatant
resupply ships; 384,000 Torpedo Spheres; 351,395,200
Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long;
306,000,000 Non-hyperdrive equipped light picket ships;
19,043,200 Heavy Frigates/Light Destroyers 450-1,000 meters
long; 2,153,000 Heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long; 5,000
Light/Medium Cruisers 1,601 meters long to 4,999 meters long;
5,000 Heavy
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Carriers/Battleships/Commandships 5,000
meters to 17,600+ meters long (Estimated max superlaser
equipped: 250.); 51,000,000 multi-purpose defence stations;
2,000,000 Golan-III Battlestations; Other Support
ships/Stations/Outposts: UNKNOWN. Also: 1 Un-augmented Systems
Bombard Group.
The one un-augmented systems bombard group contains the six
Torpedo Spheres assigned to the Imperial Navy and some escorts.
I was two damned lazy to re-do all the figures after I realized
it was necessary.
This is everything added together, and seperated by ship type,
as you can see, except that blasted bombardment group. The total
number of combat ships is around:
378,000,000 of all types, roughly, plus 306,000,000 Non-
hyperspace capable picket ships, and some 51,000,000 platforms,
plus gods know how many we don't have accurate figures for.
Also, around 4,000,000 resupply and support ships that are
unarmed, and probably alot more we have no accurate figures for,
and finally 3,200 mobile Deepdocks, plus all the non-mobile
construction/repair facilities that we cannot accurately guess
of in total numbers.
In a total of all Hyperspace capable combat starships over 100
meters in length, divided among the 51,000,000 inhabited worlds,
we get an average of around 7, that's right, only SEVEN ships
PER INHABITED PLANET. I sincerely hope this gives you a true
sense of the scope and scale of the Galactic Empire.
In terms of an invasion force, ONLY the Imperial Navy, with
it's one Systems Bombard group, 25,000 Heavy Destroyers, and
5,000-10,000 Cruiser/Battleship/Carrier/Command rate ships would
be capable of entering and invading another galaxy. The other
378,000,000 combat starships would HAVE to stay in their home
galaxy to police it against rebels, pirates, smugglers,
terrorists, and potential yet highly unlikely enemy raids from
the invaded galaxy or the unknown regions. Considering that the
Imperial Navy is the only truely mobile force out of all these
ships, the Galactic Empire would have essentially ZERO offensive
capacity in it's own galaxy during an invasion; only defence,
except for the direct pacification of known, rebelling planets,
and small operations within sectors. Any large scale offensive
against the rebels or Unknown Region species would be impossible
with the Imperial Navy committed to another galaxy; The
Starfleet would just have to hold the line until the
pacification either succeeded or failed and the Navy returned,
or what was left of it. Certainly, though, the Starfleet is
quite capable of holding the line; it just simply doesn't have
the resources to conduct it's own offensive operations.. That's
the Navy's job.
Well.. There you have it. The Starfleet and the elite offensive
part of it called the Navy, that make up the space-combat arm of
the Galactic Empire's military machine.
Marina O'Leary
"Let your rapidity be that of the wind, your compactness that of
the forest..... Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as
night, and when you strike, fall like a thunderbolt!" -- Sun-
Tzu, The Art of War.
Scottty
>What people seem to forget about this argument is the level of civilization
>found in both galaxies. The Star Trek galaxy is a Kardashev Level II plus
>civilization, with regions of the galaxy under control of one or more powers,
you forget that the Trek galaxy is also "home" to races so advanced
they make both the Feds and the Imps look like Stone Age savages, (and
the Borg like early bronze age or something.)
These super-races mostly seem to have their own "Prime Directive" type
thing though, so they usually sit back and let the younger races have
their fun.
Think of the:
Organians
Metrons
Melkotians
Voth
Paxen
Excalibans
Preservers
Q Continuum
>with innumerable Level I civilizations spread throughout. This is the level
>that the Star Wars galaxy was at 25,000 years ago, around the time of the
>advent of the early hyperdrives. They are now a Level III civilization,
This 25000 figure may be revised drastically downwards, if the hints
Lucas has been dropping mean anything...
>controlling nearly every part of the galaxy, with the ability to control levels
>of power that a Level II civilization would consider impossible. One of the
>other posters was right about the SW galaxy. They have invented nearly
>everything that can be, so there is very little innovation, just improving on
Galaxy-spanning civilizations have existed in the Trek galaxy. The
Iconians, for example.
And when a society as a whole thinks that "Everything that can be
invented has been invented".. the result is stagnation. They need a
paradigm shift towards newer technologies, if further research along
the current lines brings diminishing returns.
>the old technology. Their civilization has brought just about every one of
>their technologies to the consumer level. Look how long it took us to bring the
>microwave to market from the time it was invented. The closest that the ST
>galaxy has to this is the microfusion generator and the replicator, and that is
>only in certain areas.
Well, the products of replicator tech are enjoyed by all. No surprise
they don't use money to buy or sell anymore, if anything you want can
appear at the push of a button.
Think about it: if such a thing could be built in Real Life, the very
first Replicator ever built might cost billions - but the second one
would be free! :-)
> Given another 25 millennia to innovate, there's no telling where the ST galaxy races could be.
Indeed. Assuming they keep on innovating. The SW folks, by contrast,
are stuck in a rut.
>They could be exploring parallel
>realities like they now explore space, or they could be doing things that can't
>even be imagined yet.
Absolutely!
But is this the case with the SW universe? No, it is not.
They've invented all they can, huh?
OK, how about:
1) Transporters
2) "Organic" self-healing ships
3) Time travel
4) Instantaneous travel between planets (hyperdrive still take some
time to make a journey, and can't be used too close to a planet)
5) Self-replicating technology.
6) A telepathic AI-to-human interface
7) scanners that can track anything, anywhere
Let's put some of that together for specific examples:
The 29th-century Federation glimpsed in Voyager can time-travel on a
routine basis, and can "scan through time".
Captain Braxton's little shuttle goes so "fast" it arrives at its
destination hundreds of years BEFORE it sets out. Eat yer heart out
Han Solo!!!
Could the Empire build something like Gomtuu, as seen in the TNG
epsiode "Tin Man"?
(Of course the Feds couldn't either, or more correctly, they don't YET
know how to make one of those... but since someone else in that
universe already has, its possible they could learn to as well.)
Can the Empire's ships repair themselves within minutes, like those
of the Borg?
Do they posses technology that enables them to control someone's mind
from a distance, like Damon Bok did with Picard? Or how about Bok's
interplanetary transporter system? (Or the ancient Iconian "gates"?)
Hey, who needs starships anymore? :-)
Now lets look at the scene in Empire Strikes Back, where the Imps were
searching for the Secret Rebel Base. Notice that to do so they needed
to send probes to every possible star system ( and possibly to every
planet in each! Why did that thing need to land? Couldn't it have
spotted the Rebel base from orbit?)
If they were searcing a whole galaxy, then that's one heck of a lot of
probes, implying a monstrous industrial capacity to supply them,
right?
But why did they have to send probes at all? Why couldn't they have
stayed home on Coruscant and scanned every planet in the galaxy from
there?
Obviously, because they don't have scanners THAT good! ( Does anyone?
The 29th-century Feds, maybe, but who knows...)
What am I driving at here? Well, simply that if you think SW has
"invented everything that can be invented", you obviously know little
of other sci-fi.
Ever read Isaac Asimov's "The Last Question"?
Or, for example, his "Robot" and "Foundation" series. Robots with
telepathic powers! (in "Robots and Empire" and "Foundation and Earth")
Ships with shields that block out telepathic attacks! (see
"Foundation's Edge")
Of course, tech-based psi-shields are something the Federation is
close to inventing. Some episodes of Voyager come to mind...
Of course, if you simply mean to say the SW civilization has invented
everything THEY can invent, well, I won't argue. Perhaps
transporters, phasers and time travel are all just beyond their
intellectual level? ;-)
After all, they've had 25000 years in which to invent 'em, and they
haven't. :-)
The real reason the "Empire" lacks such things, of course, is quite
simple: they are technologies belonging to another genre. Each sci-fi
author can set the limits as to what is or isn't possible, what is
"there" to be invented or not, for his or her own fictional universe.
Thus a given type of tech may be "the most advanced possible" for one
universe, but in another, one can have much better stuff than that.
Also, mere passage of time does NOT, by itself, hand you uber-tech on
a platter. Take the Voth as an example. They have had space-travel for
literally tens of millions of years. Their tech is demonstrably
superiour to anything the Feds or the SW Imps can offer... but is it
as advanced as it should be? Not really, and an obvious reason is
given: what the Voth call "Doctrine". The Voth are conservatives,
rejecting anything that rocks the boat, or questions established
views. Thus their tech advances much slower.
So it is nonsense to claim that the Empire "must be" more advanced
than the Feds, simply because they've been spacegoing longer. So what?
Scottty
>Scottty wrote:
>>
[snip]
>>
>> 100 000 ly across is the figure I've always been told.
>> ( one hundred thousand lightyears)
>Ours is that, the SW galaxy is 120,000.
Ah, sorry for the confusion. What source gives that number?
>> that, of course, is across the disk. Not sure what the maximum
>> distance from the "top" of the nucleus to the "bottom" is..
>> ( the galaxy is shaped a bit like the saucer section of the
>> Enterprise-A) :-)
>>
>I think the maximum is a few hundred.
Well, no. The nucleus is larger than that. A few thousand, more like.
you are probably thinking of the thickness of the "disk".
>> Though there is not actual "edge".. the stars and interstellar matter
>> (dust, gas, etc) just get more and more thinly spread.
>>
>That would be the halo of the galaxy...
Not the same thing.. I'm talking about the edge of the disk.. where
the spiral arms reach.
>> By contrast, the Andromeda galaxy (about the same size) is around 2
>> million ly away - 20 times the width of the Milky Way galaxy.
>I think there are a couple of smaller galaxies a bit closer.
Indeed there are. The Andromeda one is simply the closest of
comparable size to our own.
Scottty
>that's not fair-the dumbass creators of Star Trek made the Borg way too
>powerful-an enemy that can't be destroyed because they can become
>invulnerable to any "phaser" after one shot, and have WAY too many of their
>precious cubes.
Fairness is Irrelevent.
Resistance is Futile.
"Why do you resist? We seek only to raise the quality of existance for
all species"
"I like my species the way it is!"
"A narrow perspective. you will become one with the Borg. you will ALL
become one with the Borg!"
Scottty
>"Or V'Ger's exploration of the ENTIRE universe in less than 300 years as per
>ST:TMP!"
>Hehhehheh...V'Ger...bet they feel right stupid losing all THAT information...
>Graeme Dice mentioned that: "for some odd reason the races living in close
>proximity to the Borg
>don't seem to be worried about them. You'd think that the Kazon and
>such should be deathly afraid of a borg attack." Seven said that they Kazon
>were left alone because they were deemed unwrothy for assimilation. They
>fuctioned poorly as drones, were NOT very adaptable, & I think they had a nasty
>habit of offing themselves.
Well, if I was the Borg Overmind I wouldn't want the hassle of
assimilating Kazon, either. Think of the mess shaving off all that
greasy, tangled hair would make!
And their skulls are probably rather thick, so even once you've got
the hair off, attacking the implants is difficult.
In any case, the Borg seek to IMPROVE themselves.. not regress to the
stone age! ;-)
Aron Kerkhof
<wey...@btinternet.com.DESPAM> wrote:
>no we dont know this.
>and I hgave you calculations, which everyone conveniently on the Str Wars
>side, forgot to put tdown in these posts. Accoring to me, they should have
>around 34 million cubes.
Jesus. Perhaps it was ignored because you attached your 4 line theory
to a 500 line post without snipping any of the body?
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
George Recker Jr
such a minority of the population in comparison to the rest of the galactic
population, and the fact that the majority of them don't interfere with the
rest of the galaxy at large(not including Q of course) that they weren't taken
into consideration. I was speaking in general terms for the population as to
what their overall tech level was. Yes the Iconians had galaxy-spanning
capability, but they didn't control it all, like the governments do in the SW
galaxy. I meant that the SW civilization has invented everything they can
invent, because they have sacrificed innovation for simply increasing the power
level to greater levels. The Federation, on the other hand, for example, uses a
crystal that emits 5 MW of phaser energy that hits the target with nearly the
equivalent of several petawatts of energy. Based on how advanced the Federation
is, and they've only been around for just over two centuries, their rate of
technological advancement is amazing. In contrast, the SW galaxy probably took
their advances slowly, perfecting each invention over time. They are more
conservative, so their rate of technological growth is comparably slower,
although much faster than the Voth.
Matthew Hyde
In alt.startrek.vs.starwars Dalton <dalto...@erols.com> wrote:
> Matthew Hyde wrote:
> >
> > In alt.startrek.vs.starwars Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
> > > Jonathan Willis wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Not true. Lets start with his city estimate; he assumes "a large city"
> > > > means 20 billion people. Here in NZ we consider Auckland (1.5 million) a
> > > > large city, and even elsewhere in our world any city of a few million is
> > > > large. There are a few cities in the SW galaxy of trillions of people,
> > > > but how do we know what they consider large? It could be anywhere from
> > > > millions (which suggests energies at about the asteroid lower limit) to
> > > > trillions (which suggests 1e26 J per shot), and is obviously far too
> > > > wide a range to be useful.
> >
> > > That's not the estimate he uses for his general firepower of an ISD
> > > though, is it.
> >
> > You fool! Watts and people are interchangeable!
> >
> I'm a lightbulb.
I'm a squirtbottle. I win.
Wayne Poe
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Scottty wrote:
> This 25000 figure may be revised drastically downwards, if the hints
> Lucas has been dropping mean anything...
Oh, Scottty...I thought by now you'd dispense with these deep throat type
"secret info" things that are completely unsupportable, and refuted by
official sources anyway.
> >controlling nearly every part of the galaxy, with the ability to control levels
> >of power that a Level II civilization would consider impossible. One of the
> >other posters was right about the SW galaxy. They have invented nearly
> >everything that can be, so there is very little innovation, just improving on
>
> Galaxy-spanning civilizations have existed in the Trek galaxy. The
> Iconians, for example.
Uh huh...and have the Feds humbled them? Analogy doesn't fit...ya just
gotta quit...
> And when a society as a whole thinks that "Everything that can be
> invented has been invented".. the result is stagnation. They need a
> paradigm shift towards newer technologies, if further research along
> the current lines brings diminishing returns.
Well I'm sure if we make a 5 century jump into SW future, we'd see this.
Zzzzzz......
[snip]
> But is this the case with the SW universe? No, it is not.
> They've invented all they can, huh?
>
> OK, how about:
> 1) Transporters
What about them? This type of thing has probably been invented and
rejected by beings that have a bit of an aversion to being destroyed and
duplicated. Or not. There's a magician that uses hoops that "transport"
things in his act in the SW universe.
Why didn't the Feds invent the cloaking device?
> 2) "Organic" self-healing ships
Qella spaceship, "Black Fleet Crisis" trilogy. Aing Tii starships.
> 3) Time travel
I didn't know "time travel" needs to be "invented." I SURE this is WAY
beyond the wildest DREAMS of SW science!
> 4) Instantaneous travel between planets (hyperdrive still take some
> time to make a journey, and can't be used too close to a planet)
I guess we'll have to wait until someone write a SW novel taking place 5
centuries into the future from the current ones.
> 5) Self-replicating technology.
World Devastators
> 6) A telepathic AI-to-human interface
Lobot, and other borg-implanted beings.
> 7) scanners that can track anything, anywhere
Anyone have this in either universe? If the Q had it, they wouldn't be
misplacing asteroid belts.
> Let's put some of that together for specific examples:
>
> The 29th-century Federation glimpsed in Voyager can time-travel on a
> routine basis, and can "scan through time".
> Captain Braxton's little shuttle goes so "fast" it arrives at its
> destination hundreds of years BEFORE it sets out. Eat yer heart out
> Han Solo!!!
Wow, you're stacking one irrelevant brick onto another. I'm sure Edison
thought light bulb tech was the bees knees in his time, but if I could
jump back only a few paltry years in comparison to the above with a laser
pointer, I'd take all his thunder away.
> Could the Empire build something like Gomtuu, as seen in the TNG
> epsiode "Tin Man"?
Can the Federation?
> (Of course the Feds couldn't either, or more correctly, they don't YET
> know how to make one of those... but since someone else in that
> universe already has, its possible they could learn to as well.)
So I guess it would be completely IMPOSSIBLE for the rock throwing
primates in the SW galaxy to invent this in the future, eh Scottty?
> Can the Empire's ships repair themselves within minutes, like those
> of the Borg?
Boba Fett's Slave 1, in the "Bounty Hunter Wars" trilogy
> Do they posses technology that enables them to control someone's mind
> from a distance, like Damon Bok did with Picard?
Hell, they can do THAT with the Force.
> Or how about Bok's interplanetary transporter system?
Does Bok have a hyperdrive? OOPS! Am I being irrelevant here?
> (Or the ancient Iconian "gates"?) Hey, who needs starships anymore?
> :-)
Aing Tii monks, who can pop their organic ships into a sector WITHOUT
hyperdrive.
> Now lets look at the scene in Empire Strikes Back, where the Imps were
> searching for the Secret Rebel Base. Notice that to do so they needed
> to send probes to every possible star system ( and possibly to every
> planet in each! Why did that thing need to land? Couldn't it have
> spotted the Rebel base from orbit?)
Not if it was camoflaged. Note the Empire is CAPABLE of seeding the galaxy
with with sensor probes.
> If they were searcing a whole galaxy, then that's one heck of a lot of
> probes, implying a monstrous industrial capacity to supply them,
> right?
> But why did they have to send probes at all? Why couldn't they have
> stayed home on Coruscant and scanned every planet in the galaxy from
> there?
Hey! I'm SURE they will in 5 centuries or so!
> Obviously, because they don't have scanners THAT good! ( Does anyone?
> The 29th-century Feds, maybe, but who knows...)
Who knows.......of course, if they had scanners THAT good there'd be no
need for time travel ships, would there? They could watch the past and
future wih a desktop "Guardian of Forever" if they were truly advanced as
you hope they will be. Doesn't look like, even in the 29th century, that
they even come close to races that have been dead eons aro even in the
23rd century...
> What am I driving at here?
A brick wall of irrelevancy?
> Well, simply that if you think SW has
> "invented everything that can be invented", you obviously know little
> of other sci-fi.
Or could it be that you are so close-minded that you can't grasp the idea
that the SW galaxy have invented all they could AT THAT TIME. You seem to
relish this little exercise with the most laughable logic. Why don't you
go back in time and berate Gork, inventer of the wheel, for not inventing
the Ferrari while he was at it?
> Ever read Isaac Asimov's "The Last Question"?
> Or, for example, his "Robot" and "Foundation" series. Robots with
> telepathic powers! (in "Robots and Empire" and "Foundation and Earth")
> Ships with shields that block out telepathic attacks! (see
> "Foundation's Edge")
> Of course, tech-based psi-shields are something the Federation is
> close to inventing. Some episodes of Voyager come to mind...
And they're so EASY to name! What century will these be invented, and will
they be invented by the Feds? As the saying goes, "you're all over the
placelike horseshit."
> Of course, if you simply mean to say the SW civilization has invented
> everything THEY can invent, well, I won't argue.
Well, the dozens of lines of text above seem to refute THAT....
> Perhaps transporters, phasers and time travel are all just beyond
> their intellectual level? ;-)
Perhaps hyperdrive, instantaneous galactic communication, and planet-sized
space stations are beyond the Feds wildest dreams? Cloaking devices were,
until they stole the technology.
> After all, they've had 25000 years in which to invent 'em, and they
> haven't. :-)
Bwhahaha! Scottty, you're such a card. Will you be here all week?
> The real reason the "Empire" lacks such things, of course, is quite
> simple: they are technologies belonging to another genre. Each sci-fi
> author can set the limits as to what is or isn't possible, what is
> "there" to be invented or not, for his or her own fictional universe.
"But this won't stop me from spinning the most irrelevant chain of illogic
first before posting THIS!"
> Thus a given type of tech may be "the most advanced possible" for one
> universe, but in another, one can have much better stuff than that.
That's....SO beautiful....=sniff=
> Also, mere passage of time does NOT, by itself, hand you uber-tech on
> a platter. Take the Voth as an example. They have had space-travel for
> literally tens of millions of years. Their tech is demonstrably
> superiour to anything the Feds or the SW Imps can offer... but is it
> as advanced as it should be? Not really, and an obvious reason is
> given: what the Voth call "Doctrine". The Voth are conservatives,
> rejecting anything that rocks the boat, or questions established
> views. Thus their tech advances much slower.
If only this came to you 200 lines ago....
> So it is nonsense to claim that the Empire "must be" more advanced
> than the Feds, simply because they've been spacegoing longer.
Bzzzt! Wrong! Unbelievable.....
Scottty...feel free to tear me down, I but don't have a lot of free time
to engage further in this crosspost from hell, as I'm sure RAST will be
grateful for. Ryan McReynolds is gonna kill me when he sees that I've
violated my oath!
"I was playing poker with a deck of tarot cards late last night. I got
a full house and four people died."
------Steven Wright
Generic Star Wars Fan
calculations on.
--
I CAN HEAR PIXIES TALKING TO ME. AND LEPRECHAUNS AND GOBLINS AND SOMETIMES
EVEN ESKIMOS.
Aron Kerkhof <aronk@-spamerific-galactec.com> wrote in message
news:01vjOCPuMRyBME...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:55:40 +0100, "Generic Star Wars Fan"
> <wey...@btinternet.com.DESPAM> wrote:
>
> >no we dont know this.
> >and I hgave you calculations, which everyone conveniently on the Str Wars
> >side, forgot to put tdown in these posts. Accoring to me, they should
have
> >around 34 million cubes.
>
Mike Dicenso
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Aron Kerkhof wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:49:30 -0700, Mike Dicenso
> <mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Aron Kerkhof wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:14:40 GMT, Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> we aslo remind you that the New Republic was very worried about Admiral
> >> >> Thrawn getting ahold of the 200 Katana fleet dreadnaughts in HTE?
> >> >
> >> >200 dreadnoughts would upset the balance of power, which is enough of a
> >> >reason to be worried. If I have 200 more ships than you do, then I can
> >> >cause damage by using them as a mobile force.
> >>
> >> Just wanted to point out that this was also the Imperial AND New
> >> Republic forces at a very low ebb. They are at the tail end of a five
> >> year civil war, where obviously the Empire nor the New Republic have
> >> 25,000 SD's to throw around. So 200 ships could in fact turn the tide
> >> of the war.
> >
> >
> >Which just goes to show that the SW galaxy does have it's limitations on
> >production capability.
>
> It shows only that the Empire can lose an attrition war against a foe
> with equivalent ships and resources.
Right, they have a limitation on the amount of resources that they can
throw at an enemy, and both sides were at a point where just 200
dreadnaughts was enough to throw off the balance.
> >No doubt there are those in the Galactic Empire who
> >wish that the production resources were'nt wasted on the five Death Stars,
> >and put into building ships and planetary fortifications instead.
>
> According to the Imperials circa HTTE, that assessment is wrong. The
> Empire did not lose due to any military weakness. It lost because the
> people overthrew it with superior resolve and strategy.
But even that fails because we can look at many real life historical
conflicts where a determined people with superb tacticians failed
in the face of overwhelming material superiority. Namely the South vs the
North in the US Civil War. If the Galactic Empire had screwed up on
anything, it was not properly investing in more captial ships, and
defenses when it became apparent that the Tarkin Doctrine was a total
failure.
-Mike
Mike Dicenso
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Dalton wrote:
> Scottty wrote:
> >
> > "Generic Star Wars Fan" <wey...@btinternet.com.DESPAM> wrote:
> >
> > >our galaxy is no 120000 ly accress. It is more ythan that tisnt it?
> >
> > >no
> >
> > >wait sorry, what am I saying
> >
> > >of course your right
> >
> > 100 000 ly across is the figure I've always been told.
> > ( one hundred thousand lightyears)
>
> Ours is that, the SW galaxy is 120,000.
>
> > that, of course, is across the disk. Not sure what the maximum
> > distance from the "top" of the nucleus to the "bottom" is..
> > ( the galaxy is shaped a bit like the saucer section of the
> > Enterprise-A) :-)
> >
>
> I think the maximum is a few hundred.
>
> > Though there is not actual "edge".. the stars and interstellar matter
> > (dust, gas, etc) just get more and more thinly spread.
> >
>
> That would be the halo of the galaxy...
>
> > By contrast, the Andromeda galaxy (about the same size) is around 2
> > million ly away - 20 times the width of the Milky Way galaxy.
>
> I think there are a couple of smaller galaxies a bit closer.
>
Those are the Greater and Lesser Magellanic Clouds, which are small
satellite galaxies orbiting our own.
-Mike
Aron Kerkhof
<mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Aron Kerkhof wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:49:30 -0700, Mike Dicenso
>> <mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Aron Kerkhof wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:14:40 GMT, Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> we aslo remind you that the New Republic was very worried about Admiral
>> >> >> Thrawn getting ahold of the 200 Katana fleet dreadnaughts in HTE?
>> >> >
>> >> >200 dreadnoughts would upset the balance of power, which is enough of a
>> >> >reason to be worried. If I have 200 more ships than you do, then I can
>> >> >cause damage by using them as a mobile force.
>> >>
>> >> Just wanted to point out that this was also the Imperial AND New
>> >> Republic forces at a very low ebb. They are at the tail end of a five
>> >> year civil war, where obviously the Empire nor the New Republic have
>> >> 25,000 SD's to throw around. So 200 ships could in fact turn the tide
>> >> of the war.
>> >
>> >
>> >Which just goes to show that the SW galaxy does have it's limitations on
>> >production capability.
>>
>> It shows only that the Empire can lose an attrition war against a foe
>> with equivalent ships and resources.
>
>Right, they have a limitation on the amount of resources that they can
>throw at an enemy, and both sides were at a point where just 200
>dreadnaughts was enough to throw off the balance.
I wasn't aware that I claimed the Empire had infinate ships, or
resources. Just more than any known ST threat force. And no known
ST threat force has power and speed greater than the Imperials, unlike
in the case of the war against the Rebels.
>> >No doubt there are those in the Galactic Empire who
>> >wish that the production resources were'nt wasted on the five Death Stars,
>> >and put into building ships and planetary fortifications instead.
>>
>> According to the Imperials circa HTTE, that assessment is wrong. The
>> Empire did not lose due to any military weakness. It lost because the
>> people overthrew it with superior resolve and strategy.
>
>But even that fails because we can look at many real life historical
>conflicts where a determined people with superb tacticians failed
>in the face of overwhelming material superiority. Namely the South vs the
>North in the US Civil War.
Yes, yes, and there are just as many instances of ill equipped and
trained armies overthrowing well armed and professional soldiers.
Revolutionary War? So past history has absolutely nothing to do with
this, even if you don't factor in the force.
>If the Galactic Empire had screwed up on
>anything, it was not properly investing in more captial ships, and
>defenses when it became apparent that the Tarkin Doctrine was a total
>failure.
Or they were beaten through superior tactics and resolve. Which is
what the SW mythos tells us happened.
Aron Kerkhof
galactec.com/neolith
sea...@my-deja.com
> >A Borg Cube could potentially assimilate dozens of
> > worlds before stumbling across
> > an Imperial ship. And even then the odds are it'd meet a smaller
ship it
> > could easily handle,
> > although this would let the Empire know they exist.
>
> The first world it met would send out a distress call, which would be
> received instantly across the entire galaxy.
While I don't deny the speed of Holonet communications systems,
there are clearly a number of worlds that either: wouldn't
have access to the technology; wouldn't contact the Imperials
since, like Bespin, they try to avoid the Empire; or even
a third possibility, being that their transmission was *jammed*.
>
> > These are questions of weapon/shield energy levels that still
haven't
> > been answered in the NG. Between 20 MT and 2,000 MT isn't
> > necessarily far more than 64 MT, and this range is
> > only that argued for by Mike Wong, not a definitive answer.
>
> They have been answered, as no reasonable challenges to them have ever
> arisen. In fact, every number Wong uses is virtually the absolute
lower
> limits for SW.
I covered this in another post, and I promised a follow-up if need
be. I have a little time on my hands at the moment, so let me
illustrate how at least one of his figures is not, in fact,
a lower-limit.
In the Imperial shielding section of Technology Comparison in
I Want YOU!:
"TESB asteroid field: The TESB novelization described a "steady rain"
of asteroids, and Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader said that
"turbolaser gunners blasted the largest rocks; those they missed
impacted against the bow shields like multi-megaton compression bombs."
We can see from the film that the ships were taking impacts at the rate
of at least 1 asteroid per second if not more, and we know from the
above quote that the asteroids were striking with several megatons of
energy each. Some Federation cultists dispute this figure by stating
that we saw some slow-moving asteroids in the films, but this is a
false dilemma fallacy: the existence of slow-moving asteroids does not
prove that all of the asteroids (>99.99% of which would have impacted
off-screen) would have been slow-moving, particularly since typical
asteroid speeds in the Earth's solar system have been observed to be
much higher than this. Furthermore, the bombardment must have continued
for at least 1 or 2 days because Vader had time to contact bounty
hunters, who travelled from their various homebases to the Outer Rim
while the fleet stayed in the field. Therefore, each ISD might have
absorbed as much as 3E20 joules of kinetic energy while in the asteroid
field."
Let's break this down.
First, when someone writes, "...Each ISD might have absorbed *as much
as*," the denoted words indicate an upper-limit, not a lower one.
Second, I rarely disagree with MW's figures, but I don't like the
way he derived this conclusion. First of all, the quote from
the Darth Vader text is taken out of its logical context. It
says: "...turbolaser gunners blasted the largest rocks; those they
missed impacted against the bow shields like multi-megaton compression
bombs."
MW puts this together with what we saw onscreen, supported by
the novelization's account of a "steady rain of asteroids." He then
concludes that *each* asteroidal impact must've hit with multi-MT
kinetic energy.
Indulge me, and look at the quote again, very carefully. Is the
subject simply "rocks"? No. The subject is LARGEST rocks--only
the largest rocks that the gunners missed hit with that kind of
force, NOT every rock. There is no subject change; "those they
missed" clearly refers back to "largest rocks." Consequently,
unless the TLs were either unable to destroy the large rock impacts
and/or were unable to target them (*very* strange, I would think, given
how many shots per broadside they should be capable of), these
large impacts should have been kept to an absolute minimum.
If someone says, "No, why bother with multi-MT impacts? The ISD
is strong enough to take that, easy," then I accuse them of
Begging the Question. Moreover, I cite the onscreen precedent of
many very small, slow-moving asteroids being targetted, like the
ones vaporized in the scene immediately preceding the TIE Bomber
strafing run. If *those* were targetted, it would clearly follow
that asteroids with hundreds of times the mass would be targetted
as well.
By my own quite generous calculations, somewhere in the
range of 1E20J *might* be reasonable. Let's assume the 70m
asteroids, those of the 500 TJ of kinetic energy variety,
impacted an ISD every second of every min. (of every hr.
of the day) for a full week--plenty of time for the bounty
hunters to get there.
60*60*24*7*500 TJ is 302,400,000 TJ sustained over a one-week
period, around the time the one ISD lost its bridge tower.
Put more simply, *that's* 3E20J. Given that the vast majority
of impacts we saw were in the low terajoule range--and no
False Dilemma, damn it!, since we saw bombardment at one of
the most dense portions of the field--this figure should be
treated as an upper-limit, ****not**** lower. It fits all of
the information we have at hand, too, without making any
biased assumptions about how "we just didn't see" the brunt
of the asteroidal damage (which is just that: an assumption
to accomodate a misinterpreted quotation). It allows for
thousands of small asteroid impacts, some larger ones, like
the 70m one, and even those that might hit with multi-megatons
of kinetic energy. It is actually a bit on the long side,
insofar as the timescale is concerned, thus making it more generous
than it initially sounds. (I don't doubt the Death Squadron
and MF were in the field for at least a day or two, but the
events unfolding on the Falcon aren't really that consistent with
a week of hiding. Hours or days, at most, but certainly not
more than one week.)
A more reasonable breakdown would be something like two days,
or ~1/3 of the number presented above; i.e., 1E20J. I could
live with that number all day long. It seems to fit all of
the facts.
I can make a perfectly valid argument for Star
> Destroyer's all having planet destroying capabilities, which only uses
> canon information directly from the movies.
>
Please see my breakdown of Dodonna's quotations. There are
problems with using it as a source of info...
> >
> > How do we know that massed photon torpedos are effective against the
> > Borg? The only time Starfleet
> > defeated the Borg in a straight fight involved specialised
knowledge,
> > plus new technologies designed to combat the Borg (Defiant, the
> > Sovereign incorporating Defiant design
> > aspects, probably others).
>
> Probably others does not mean they exist. The specialized knowledge
was
> nothing more than the basic military tactic of concentrating your fire
> on a visible hole in the side of the ship. Hardly anything special.
Hmm...I kind of doubt that. Data can be a lunkhead sometimes,
but I doubt he or anyone else in the fleet would've dismissed
the hole as a good target if this was Picard's criterion alone.
Anyone could see a hole; it takes no special knowledge to
come up with that. And Picard *did* give his order only after
he overheard the Collective voice's subspace junk in his head.
More likely than not, the cube is less decentralized in design
than originally known. For example, a Borg ship has its
reactors, or "power matricies" as Seven called it I think, that is
*very* well-disguised (if not totally hidden) from sensors. It's
possible that there are a number of such reactors in a ship as big as a
Borg cube; like the away team reported in "BoBW," when one power node
goes off, another one kicks on. The Borg are big on redundant systems.
Anyway, we could hypothesize that Picard hears that the reactor in
subjunction X of the cube is approaching critical, so he orders
concentrated fire near that spot. The weapons fire alone might not hit
the reactor, but it'd be close enough to push it over the edge,
explode, and then proceed to set off a chain reaction throughout the
cubeship--consistent with what happened (i.e., explosions appeared all
across the surface). It's also consistent with Data's vague reading
of fluctuations across their power grid--the more decentralized
conduit network that *is* detectable on sensors.
> True, but they have assimilated a prepared military starship with
> > experience in fighting them, in less than 24 hours with only a
handful
> > of drones. This gives us a lower limit of their assimilation
> > capabilities. Assimilation is a geometric progression, so even with
a
> > handful
> > of drones, if each drone adds another drone every hour, within a
month
> > you'll
> > have assimilated a planet even starting with only a handful of
drones.
>
> Unless you burn all life off the planet from orbit. That would be the
> most efficient way to dispose of the borg, remove their logistical
> capabilities.
>
That's assuming two things:
1--the Borg ships in orbit let you proceed to BDZ the surface,
if there are in fact ships in orbit; and
2--you're willing to throw out the statement about how the Imperials
wouldn't kill lots of their own citizens. If the whole planet
wasn't assimilated, they'd be risking killing millions of their
own.
> >
> > As too Borg industry, based on their regenerative capabilities
(seen in
> > Q-Who to repair a torpedo blast the size of a GCS saucer in minutes)
> > they should
> > be able to turn out a new Cube in a couple of days given raw
materials.
>
> And yet, somehow, they have not managed to do anything but take over a
> rather small area of a single galaxy. This does not point to rapid
> shipbuilding.
When you have a very high concentration of ships in that space, it
does. That's usually what we see. Please see my thoughts about
"Borg goals" elsewhere in this very thread. IOW, we can't treat them
as the psychological equivalent of an Empire or Dominion.
>
> > They mentioned losing a few hundred to 7o9; how long a timeframe
this
> > refers to is unspecified. If it means just the time while 7 was on
> > Voyager til then, thats only a day or two, and the conflict with
S8472
> > was ongoing for an unknown length of time prior to Voyager entering
Borg
> > space.
>
> That they were worried about a loss of a few hundred cubes points to
> this being a large proportion of their fleet.
I think I addressed this one elsewhere, too...
>
> > How many systems the Borg control is the crucial point, and its
> > something we have no evidence for. If they controlled every system
> > within a few thousand lightyears they would have millions of
worlds, and
> > be
> > a match for the Empire. But we don't know exactly how big their
space is
> > (Janeway called it "vast" which by Federation standards probably
means
> > thousands of lightyears) or how densely packed.
>
> If they controlled that many worlds, then they would have already
taken
> over the Milky Way, hence they don't have that many worlds.
Again, see my other post...what makes you think that they want
to control the MW, at least right now?
>
> And will promptly be set upon by an Imperial fleet, when the distress
> signal is sent over the hypernet. The Empire must patrol the majority
> of its worlds, or they could not rule by fear.
Hmm...you make a good point, of course--you're sharp as hell,
even though I'm disagreeing left and right here ; ) But I don't
think it's essential that ships need patrol *all* of the Imperial
worlds to "rule by fear"--the very speed of hyperdrive guarantees
that fear alone, not to mention commonly known Imperial cruelty
to enemies. If Holonet comm systems are instantaneous, and every
little backwater world has them to "send distress signals," then
a naval prescence *wouldn't* be imperative. They'd already know
what could happen to them in a matter of hours, should they get
a wild hair up their ass and decide to revolt/whatever.
>
> > With transwarp speeds of a few million c (there is limited evidence
they
> > have speeds of 1e12 c, but more conservatively) they can easily
cover
> > the galaxy. Even with slower speeds, their ships are large and
powerful
> > enough to withstand Imperial weapons, so they'd be a slow,
unstoppable
> > march accross Imperial territory. At least until they assimilate
> > hyperdrive.
>
> They are perfectly stoppable, especially since they would send a
single
> cube, which could easily be destroyed. When they sent more later,
> simply destroy the cubes you meet, and sterilize their planets.
I don't think the cubes would be very easily stopped, though I'm
not going into that whole adaptation junk. They have powerful shields,
and weapons that seemed unnecessarily powerful to use against the
Federation fleets they've encountered. They could well be a match
for many Imperial ships one-on-one. In fleets, I'd favor the Empire,
definitely, but we're getting ahead of ourselves in thinking it'd
come to that right away...(I'm still not comfortable with the whole
Borg invasion idea!).
As for sending one cube, that's *only* against targets against
which assimilation is almost in the bag. Throughout Voyager we've
seen multiple ships engage an enemy. And if one enters Borg space,
they'd better count on running into lots of cubes and spheres.
>
> > The thing is, SW doesn't have concrete numbers, it just thinks it
does.
> > Mike Wong has some good arguments for his numbers (around 1e21 J
for ISD
> > shields/weapons), and as such his figures have become assumed to be
true
> > for pro-SW fans. Personally I don't agree with him, and would put
ISD
> > shields/weapons at around 1e18 J, while others argue for ISD
> > shields/weapons of 1e24 J or more. The only concrete evidence is the
> > asteroid destruction, putting a lower limit of around 1e16 J. All
the
> > rest of Mike's arguments are based on some resonable but unproven
> > assumptions.
>
> Such as? I would appreciate examples here, as the numbers we use here
> are on the extreme low side of those that are possible for SW.
Most of them are. And I, for one, appreciate the conservativity.
> There is plenty of evidence. See Mike January's page for the amount of
> energy needed to destroy a fully-adapted cube. (Unless of course you
> think they weren't able to adapt to rocks flying at them, in which
case,
> the drones can be mowed down by modern armies.) A cube can be taken
out
> by 1.5 broadsides of an ISD, and using very low estimates for SW ISD
> firepower, a galaxy class starship can be destroyed in less than a
> microsecond of a single broadside.
>
> Graeme Dice
> --
> How to know if your an internet junkie %16 -
> You check your E-Mail. it sais 'No new messages', so you
> check it again.
I covered this last point in another post as well. There could
be problems with Mike's otherwise good figures...
Will
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ryan McReynolds
the next guy... but on alt.startrek.vs.starwars ONLY! Please, as I'm only
responding to one of the messages, everyone set your follow-ups to all of
the other messages to that newsgroup alone and stop the crosspost into
rec.arts.startrek.tech. I know that the bulk of people here couldn't care
less about this debate and it is honestly off-topic. Being unmoderated,
nobody can force you to stop, but I know I and others would appreciate some
simple courtesy. Thanks for your consideration.
Follow-ups for this message have been set to alt.startrek.vs.starwars...
--
-=Ryan McReynolds=-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't
go away." --Phillip K. Dick
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris
wrote:
<Snip>
>
>But is this the case with the SW universe? No, it is not.
>They've invented all they can, huh?
>
>OK, how about:
>1) Transporters
>2) "Organic" self-healing ships
>3) Time travel
>4) Instantaneous travel between planets (hyperdrive still take some
>time to make a journey, and can't be used too close to a planet)
>5) Self-replicating technology.
>6) A telepathic AI-to-human interface
>7) scanners that can track anything, anywhere
>
<snip>
hmm... just a few things to say here.....
1) transporters? perhaps the very idea of a transporter violates some
fundimental religious or scientifical belife? (I knwo there's no way
in hell you'd get me to step into one of those).
2) Organic ships? maybe at some time in thier distant past they
developed them and then decided they weren't worth it. We don't know
about that. However, if the ship IS alive, it needs to feed (on
something.. what, excactly, is unknown). Maybe they figured that they
would rather deal with a straight forwar mechanical approach then deal
with the chance of being on a potentialy sentient ship that didn't
like what you wanted it to do?
3) Time Travel. They could have come to the conclution that time
trave isn't a worthwhile investment considering the it raises
possibilites of a paradox. (if you change the past, your future isn't
the same. If you change it in such a way (even accedently) so that
yoru reason for inventing time travel doesn't exist, how could you
have invented it to go back and change it?)
4) Instantaneous travel between planets? see transporters.
5) Self replicating technology? I belive world devistators qualify.
6) a telepathic ai to human interface? granted, that would be more
then just a little usefull.
7)the ultimate scanner? once again, I'll grant you that.
Matthew Hyde
In alt.startrek.vs.starwars Admiral Korel <morg...@esatclear.ie/> wrote:
> The point is that the Borg are not indiscriminate conquerors.
If a pack of wild dogs (Starfleet) kept killing my dogs (cubes) then I
woiuld go kill the wild dogs without any interest or motivation other than
to protect my dogs. Especially if the reason I sent my dogs (cubes) out
was to take over the wild dogs (Starfleet) in the first place.
But I guess I would be a smarter rancher than you.
Mike Dicenso
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Aron Kerkhof wrote:
> First off, I think you've got me wrong. I don't debate this because
> I'm seriously worked up about the SVS debate. It's fun for me. A
> ncie mental exercise. If I have so far said anything that you took as
> insulting, I apologize.
>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:11:05 -0700, Mike Dicenso
> <mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> >> In the novelization of ANH Tarkin states something to the effect that
> >> the Death Star would give them firm control over the "million worlds
> >> or the Empire."
> >
> >I just finished flipping through the ANH novelization, and I can't find
> >specifically what your refering to here. You need to provide direct quote,
> >or a page reference here.
>
> In my copy (it's actually a softcover combo of all three novels in one
> tome) it's on page 116. Tarkin says, and I quote:
> "This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which
> will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and
> for all."
This actually works against you here as it constrains the number of
planets in the Galactic Empire to approximately one million star systems,
and probably alot few actual member worlds in the origional Galactic
Republic. If there is one Imperial starship per planet your looking at
"only" one million captial ships in the Imperial starfleet, and probably
alot less than that as some of the worlds shown do not have a signicant
Imperial presence around them (i.e. Tatooine and Alderann). That would fit
in well with the offical sources statements of there being some 25,000
ISDs and a handfull of SSDs backed up by VSDs, dreadnaughts and bulk
cruisers, Nebulon-B frigates, Carrack class cruisers ect.
>
> >Be it as it may, we know the following: Both the
> >Empire and the Borg can build enourmous capital class ships in the
> >multi-km range on a routine basis.
>
> I think you are generalizing too much here. While we do not know how
> many cubes the Borg have, nor their constuction rate, We DO know that
> losing 100 cubes in a period of around a month is a signifigant loss
> to the Borg.
We don't know that they "only" lost 100 cubes in that time period, your
making too many generalizations here yourself in assuming that those
losses were sustained in the 1 month plus timeframe of the Borg/S8742 war.
> We do know the aproximate fleet numbers of the Imperials, and the
> time frame in which they were built, and we also know that losing the
> whole damn Death Star was but a minor setback.
On the contrary, we have no one in any of the novels or movies who
expicitly state that losing the DSs was a trival matter.
> Losing the far larger
> Death Star 2 was not mourned by any of the higher Admirals of the
> fleet, they were far more upset that the Executer was lost, as it was
> crewed by the cream of the Imperial crop as far as future capitans
> went. (ref. HTTE)
No one said anything either though about it not being a severe blow. I
imagine that intelligent commanders like Thrawn, Tagge, and Pelleaon would
view them as anything other than expensive, putting your eggs in one
basket white elephants that drained critical resources from other
projects, and the Empire's shipbuilding campaigns.
> >We also know that both powers can build
> >"planetoid" sized stations as well too as witnessed by the Death Stars and
> >the Borg Unicomplex, which are hundreds of km wide.
>
> Again, the Empire was able to construct these without causing a blip
> on their economy, as it was constructed entirely out of secret funds
> and materials. The borg channel 100% of their resources into
> ship/combat production (I presume you won't contest this), and there
> is STILL no evidence that they have a fleet numbering in the tens of
> thousands, let alone the millions they are often given credit for.
The Borg "economy" is geared toward assimilating that which adds to their
perfection. I'am not sure that counts in the conventional sense as a
wartime economy footing in the sense that we understand these
things. There is NO real direct evidence that the Borg are straining to
build Unicomplex One, or the Cubes, spheres, probes, scout cubes, or
any other vessel they may have.
> >Third, but not least
> >of all, both powers have ultra fast FTL drives in the form of hyperspace
> >and transwarp respectively. Oh yeah, and becuase of that, both powers have
> > an influence on galactic affairs.
>
> But I think you will agree, grudgingly, that the Empire has far more
> influence over their larger galaxy that the Borg does over their own.
I really don't know that for sure one way or the other.
> >being exposed to Athega. The rest of the time it, like everyone else was
> >in Nkllon's shadow. On top of that, the comic adapation shows Athega to be
> >a fairly ordinary star by all appearences.
>
> Did it? I for one find it difficult to judge a star's intensity by
> the color of the ink printed on pulp paper.
Actually it's a pretty good indicator, just as we literally interpret the
FX in the movies and TV shows, so we can treat the artwork in the comics
when there is no other good evidence to go on. In this case, Athega
apppears to be at least a normal type-G star, maybe even a type-K based on
it's orangish-yellow color.
The book describes it as
> a super hot star, and for me it would take more than comic art to
> overthrow that.
It's all in how you want to play the game really. Describing a star as
"super hot" is a bit silly since all stars by definition are super hot,
just some more than others.
Personally, I don't know why people bring out Athega
> either. Canon estimates of TL and shield strength are already
> rediculously high. However, I see elsewhere people claiming
> signifigant damage occured to the SD in question, which is false. It
> suffered minor surface sensor damage only.
Actually the damage is pretty severe according Captain Pelleaon. The outer
hull was badly damaged in addition to the sensor damage, which required
the Judicator to spend at least 3 weeks out of action for repairs.
> >The Galactic Republic, even with all these supposed ships mentioned in the
> >secondary offical sources, did not have a signifcant control of the
> >of SW galaxy as witnessed by Gui Gonn's statements concerning the
> >Republic's lack of control over Tatooine, and the outer rim territories
> >in TPM.
>
> Define signifigant. The SW galaxy is 20% larger than our own at any
> rate, and tatooine is at the extreme fringe of this. Also, you'll
> recall that the Republic fell, not because of it's lack of might, but
> because of internal corruption and complacency. Thus, Republic law is
> probably not enforced in Hutt space because the Hutts bribe local
> officials to see it that way.
Then things have'nt changed very much until the time of ANH have
they? Tatooine, and the other Outer Rim Territories were not covered by
any real Imperial or Rebel presence, which indicates that the Empire's
influence is'nt what it's cracked up to be. HTTE also indicates that there
are largely unexplored areas too, namely the Unknown Regions, and the
"uncharted settlements" that even given a somewhat larger galaxy than our
own it's clear that a fair portion is under the Galactic Republic and
later Empire in name only.
> >the Borg ability to regenerate a vessel. Your saying that one = another,
> >and that the tech is related. Maybe that's not what you ment to say, but
> >that's the way it sounded. Spitting out lots of TIE's is not the same as
> >rebuilding whole sections of ship that are over a cubic km in volume.
>
> Only TIE's? World Devastators are capable of producing new World
> Devastators and ships of up to ISD classifications according the
> SWEGVV.
Which is not bourne out by what is shown to us in DE. The closest we get
to what you describe is the destruction of an ISD by a WD, but not the
production of a one.
> >willing to go through the trouble. He even has a section for the D'Deridex
> >weapons, detailing the calculations of a warbird vaporizing three stolen
> >Vulcan vessels to prevent them from falling into enemy hands.
>
> Rest assured, I will take a look at them. In the meantime, I can
> comment on the Vulcan calcs which I have seen. I doubt the Vulcan
> vessels were truly vaporized. More likely, their engine containment
> was ruptured and its own reactors made their demise more spectacular.
That may be true, but in the abbsence of any direct proof of a core breech
on any of those ships, I can just as easily assume the vaporization
interpretation is just as vaild. But this is as much a response to those
pro-SWers who insist that every ship destruction in the movies is
vaporization, and not the result of catastropic damage to ship's power
plant resulting in a larger explosion, which destroys the ship.
> >> Fortunately, asteroids have no such SIF technology, so no matter what,
> >> ESB stands to this very day as a fairly concrete lower limit of SW
> >> weapons tech.
> >
> >Ah now we run from ship hulls to asteroids, do we?
>
> We do? Who's we? What is with your attitude anyway? Perhaps you've
> confused me with Thela.
Your switching from ship hulls to asteroids now, plain and simple.
> >Alright ST has it's own
> >"concrete" examples to set lower levels of firepower with too. From the
> >asteropid destruction in ST:TMP to VGR's Rise there are examples of
> >asteroids and comets being destroyed or vaporized.
>
> It is very hard to even guestimate how much energy went into the
> destruction of something like an asteroid. Vaporization calcs are
> useful, but being in the RAST group you're aware that phasers never
> really vaporize anything.
A photon torpedo is NOT a phaser. ST:TMP has the E-nil fire a single torp
at a fair sized asteroid, and the same is true of the VGR episode "Rise".
They transition matter out of the
> continuum, whatever that means. Again, what you need is a site that
> does scaling and related energy equations, kind of like a Trek version
> of Curtis Saxton. Hopefully by someone with a relevant education that
> will answer criticisms brought on by peer review.
Actually the TNG TM states that the material is being both vaporized and
transitioned out of the continuum, but there is on-screen evidence that
phasers are not limited to a few GW as the TM would have us believe. We
also have good evidence that even if the TM were correct, the effects the
phasers have on shields, and armor is comparable in effect to terrwatt
range, and even pettawatt and Exawatt range.
> >In the case of TNG's
> >"A Matter of Time", the E-D using phasers to burn off the dust in the
> >Penthra IV atmosphere as the risk of igniting the whole planet's
> >atmosphere if the phaser's varience is off by only 60 GW!
>
> I can accomplish similar phenomenon by throwing a match into a grain
> silo. I don't see where we can get any kind of useful lower or upper
> limits from this.
Throwing a match in a grain silo is not the same thing at all, the
timescales are also much longer for the match than it is for a phaser
turning dust in the planet's atmosphere into ionized plasma.
> >> Ah, a disciple of Kennedy. :-) Suffice to say, there is zero
> >> evidence that the warbird actually pulverized the rock ('Pegasus',
> >> right?) or melted a signifigant quantity of it. Too, how wide do you
> >> think that hole was, anyway?
> >
> >Actually you've got it ass-backwards here. There is little evidence that
> >the whole glowing mass of rock filling the tunnel was melted by the
> >warbird.
>
> That's what I said.
Not quite, you said that there was no evidence for pulverization, when
most Warsies argue for it not being mostly melted.
> >From dialouge, "The romulans have used their disruptors to
> >destroy the chasm's entrance". We also know that the warbird must've
> >dumped a conciderable amount of energy into the task as rock is still seen
> >glowing more than 9 hours after the incident!
>
> Did it? I don't recall the episode that clearly. Do you have
> pictures or dialog that establishes the glowing and the time frame?
> Is this on Graham's site?
Graham has a picture on his site under the "Power" section of the inital
views of the glowing mass flowing into the tunnel. I have the episode on
tape, and I know what it looks like. If you look at the image, you'll see
that the mass is mostly glowing, indicating a fair amount of energy was
transfered to the mass to make at least the rock glow, if not melt
slightly. Later it's stated in Picard's log entry that nine hours has
passed while the phase cloak is being installed, and we see that when the
E-D is ready to enter the rock while phased, the mass of rock still has a
noticable orangish glow. The only serious arguement against it being
melted completely is that liquified rock might not move that way in in
Z-G.
> >at minimum to allow this to occur. So there you have the conservative
> >"concrete" numbers for the asteroid gamma 601 tunnel dimensions. Using
> >Pi*R^2*H for the approximate volume of the tunnel, we get over 1 billion
> >cubic meters of rock conservatively that was pulverized at the very least,
> >and pushed, or allowed to slide into the tunnel and plug it up.
>
> Ok, I now see where you're coming from. So how much energy does it
> take to crush 1 billion cubic meters of rock? I have no idea,
> especially since the destruction was not shown.
We don't see per say, what we do know is that it did'nt take very long to
accomplish. When Admiral Pressman, and Commander Riker on the Pegasus to
retrive the cloak, the ship shakes for about 3 seconds, followed intantly
by Picard calling them to tell them to report back to the Enterprise
immediately. When Pressman and Riker return (at most five minutes later),
Picard informs them that the Romulans have destroyed the entrance with
their disruptors, and we see a shot from the POV of the viewscreen showing
the mass flowing slowly into the tunnel.
> >> Since I am ignorant of the source here, could you enlighten me about
> >> the circumstances/dialog that brought you to this conclusion.
> >
> >I've already mention most of it for both "Timeless", and "Hope and
> >Fear". Perhaps if you were a little specific as to what you don't
> >understand, I'd be more able to enlighten you here. Arturis tells Janeway
> >and Seven quite plainly in "Hope and Fear" that it will take "Only a few
> >hours" to reach Borg space. We know that Voyager has been travelling for
> >about nine months since Kes threw the vessel 10,000 ly in "The Gift". We
> >know that Voyager travels an average of 1,000 LY a year on conventional
> >warp (75,000 ly/70 years travel time to get home = 1,071 LY per
> >year). That equates to 83.33 ly per month average, or 750 ly minimum since
> >"The Gift". Let's say that Arturis' "few hours" = 3 hours travel
> >time. That means 250 ly per hour, or 25,000 ly per every four days, or
> >eight to nine days to reach the 60,000 ly distant Alpha quadrent.
>
> Ok, then this is several times slower than what is apparently a rather
> average ship seen in TPM.
Only about twice as slow really on average, and you neglect to note that I
used rather conservative assumptions here about the distance from where
Voyager was relative to Borg space, and I did not assume either that
Arturis took them deep inside Borg space, which would've required that
they travel several thousand ly, and not 800-100 ly. So conservatively the
Slipstream drive is well within a factor of 10 of the hyperdrive using
this conservative assumption.
> > In
> >"Timeless", it literally only takes minutes to reach the outer edges of
> >the Alpha quadrent *period*. There is nothing more concrete, and simple
> >than that.
>
> What was the distance traveled? How do we know this?
This event occured before the 20,000 ly jump made using Borg transwarp in
"Dark Frontier", and we have statments made that the Alpha quadrent is
some 60,000 ly from where they are at that point. We know from episode
dialouge that when the Voyager comes out of Slipsteam, it is within a
parsec of the Alpha quadrent border. Even using very conservative
distances, say they only travelled 20,000 ly in five minutes time, that's
several times faster than anything yet seen in SW.
> >But the arguement is about the Empire vs Borg, not Empire vs the Kazon
> >Nistrum! The Borg have many of the advantages of the Empire *now*.
>
> What? That's not what I was saying. TOS told us that right now in
> present day earth we would be nearly conquered by a race of
> bioengineered supermen headed by a guy named Khan. We know that did
> not turn out that way. It didn't even happen that way in DS9
> timeline, because Benjamin actually visited that time period, and
> there was zero evidence of a Eugenics war. That's messed up.
What!? Where Sisko and Bashir went in time is at least 28 years or more
down the road from when the Eugenics war was supposed to take place.
The Sanctuary Districts were around in 2024, the Eugenics war took place
in 1996.
We know it took place because TNG references Khan in "A Matter of TIme",
and DS9 references it in "Doctor Bashir I Presume?".
Even in VGR's "Future's End", we see a model of the DY-100 sleeper ship
used by Khan and his followers to escape Earth sitting on Dr. Robinson's
desk.
> My only point is just that the performance of a theorhetical 29th
> century Federation means nothing in defence of the "present" ST
> galaxy.
Theoretical? The 29th century Federation is anything but. It is referenced
at least three times throughout VGR, and more if you include seeing the
EMH's holoemitter every week.
I still feel that while the Borg would be no pushovers, they
> would fall to the Empire.
They might fall would be a better conclusion to make.
I think that most of the Alpha Quadrant
> races would be completely devastated by the Empire.
They might fall to the Empire's material superiority, but not necessarily
to any real tehnological one.
> I conceed that
> S8742 could pose a signifigant threat to the Empire's war machine, but
> hesitate to chalk up a win to ST because we have so little evidence to
> go on in that conflict.
> In conclusion, while the borg might be within an order of magnitude of
> the capabilities of the Empire, I think the Empire would win, if
> nothing else than because the borg are pretty stupid, tactics and
> strategy wise.
The only reason the Borg or the Empire act so stupid is because the
stories would'nt last very long if they acted in reasonable manner. That's
something I appreciated about HTTE, whatever it's flaws maybe, at least we
got to see more of an Imperial commander who did use strategy and tactics
in an intelligent manner, who was conscience of the resources under
his command, and actually LEAD his troops as opposed to terrifying them.
-Mike
Mike Dicenso
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Admiral Korel wrote:
> The point is that the Borg are not indiscriminate conquerors. They only take
> what they don't have. Slowly expanding a concentrated power base seems much
> more viable than "conquering" the entire galaxy in one fell swoop (besides
> the fact that slow expansion gives primitive cultures a chance to ripen).
This is actually an excellent interpretation of what we see in the
episodes. The Borg have a highly concentrated area of space, perhaps a
sphere of influence some 10,000, or more LY wide, from which they make
"harvesting forays" into the other regions of the galaxy. This fits in
very well with the hive mind of the Borg. Their space is essentially a
gigantic "beehive" with the cubes, spheres, probes, scout cubes ect acting
as worker bees do going out to find sources of food (in this case worthy
civilzations to assimulate). The Borg space is slowly expanding as implied
by Arturis' statements about his people being assimulated in "Hope and
Fear" once the war with S8472 was over.
> Why? Why would they /want/ to assimilate the entire galaxy? Would that make
> them perfect?
>
> Just because they haven't taken over the galaxy yet doesn't mean that they
> don't control several million worlds within the space they /do/ posess.
Another excellent point here. Plus Guinion's and Q's comments tend to
indicate that the Borg are very meticulous in their efforts. In "Q
Who?" when Guinion is asked as to why the Borg did'nt just send over
swarms of Borg, she answers that is'nt their way, that "when they come,
they're gonna come in force, they don't do anything piecemeal". Q in the
same episode tells Picard when the first drone transports aboard the
Enterpise, "He's a scout, the first of many".
> >S8472 ships do not have firepower greater than anything else, as they
> >hit Voyager, and did not instantly destroy the ship. The bioships
> >firepower does not even begin to approach that of the DS1.
>
> The bioship that shot Voyager could easily still have been powering up (it
> fires while its engines are only starting to glow, IIRC).
It was also damaged as Tuvok noted when he and Chakotay where examining it
up close, "This damage was caused by a Borg distruptor".
Later on in the begining of Part II, the Borg cube escorting Voyager has
to intervine between a pursuing S8472 ship and Voyager to prevent Voyager
from being destroyed after just a couple of hits.
> >Data's statement can be as wrong as the TM.
>
> Er, not really. Trek has this thing called "canon"...
Although not perfect, the on-screen canon takes precidence over the TMs,
especially since we don't have any real contradictory evidence against
it. In fact, we have more supporting it with the shield calculations, and
the statement from "Who Watches The Watchers" describing 4.2 GW was enough
to power a "small phaser bank".
> >That's if there are enough of the central ships in the S8472 formation,
> >and that the formation is maneuverable enough to actually hit something
> >smaller than a planet. We know that cubes can be destroyed by less than
> >planet-killing firepower, which means that S8472's individual weapons
> >are much less powerful than the beam emitted by the central ship when
> >powered by the others.
>
> I think he meant a few ships firing at once, not using the megagun option.
That's what I mean. When we see the cubes being fired apon by S8472
bioships, they don't do anywhere near the amount of damage we see when
they are first fired apon in the "Scorpion pt. II"'s opening teaser. Later
in a quick shot of a battle between a Borg and S8472 armadas, we see cubes
being fired apon by multiple 8472 ships, though not in the megagun
fashion.
-Mike
Mike Dicenso
On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Graeme Dice wrote:
> > engadge us". This does not sound like there are billions of ISDs or
> > Imperial ships as a whole if they can be spread thinly like that.
>
> With over 12 million worlds, and an entire galaxy of over 200 billion
> stars, it is easy to spread a billion ships thin.
One million actually according to Tarkin in the ANH novelization. And it's
clear that some of those worlds do not have an Imperial presence over
them (Tatooine), or even some of the coreworlds (Alderann). In the
Galactic Republic, we certainly don't see any Republic vessels sitting
there facing off with Trade Federation Battleships over Naboo in TPM. As
swas pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the Empire does'nt need to have
it's ships stationed over every single planet if the Holonet is as good as
the pro-SW side would have us believe it is.
> All we ever saw it do was land on the planet. We know that SW sensors
> have a detection range for starships of at least 7 light-years. Given 1
> million probes, and spending a ridiculously long time of half an hour
> per scanning stop, it will take less than three months to map an entire
> galaxy down to the starship scale.
Unfortunately all other things being equal, Admiral Ozzel's "thousands of
probe droids" statement would disagree with this assumption. Ands even
then we did not see any evidence, the movie or the novelization of the
probe droid on Hoth sending back information on anything more than the
planet itself. By Ozzel's statement, and on-screen evidence we are
constrained to an upper limit of 9,999 probe droids scanning the surfaces
of about the same number of planets.
> > deal with any significant threat by the Ssi'ruk, or anyone else. Even if
> > the message was instantaneous, the response would not be there there in
> > less than a day to deal with the threat.
>
> The remotest parts of the galaxy did not hear about Palpatine's
> downfall, because the remnants of the Empire did not _want_ them to hear
> about it.
Perhaps. Or perhaps news just does'nt travel as fast it might over the
Holonet. Either way, the Borg would have at least a day to assimulate a
backwater system, and become entrenched.
> Those numbers are actually middle range. Take 25,000 ISD's and divide
> that number into 2E38 J, and you get 8.3E33 J per ISD. This is planet
> destroying firepower.
Assuming that "greater than half the starfleet" means 25,000 ISDs
only. Assmuing there is a million or so vessels of various types in the
Imperial starfleet, that number goes down significantly.
> > hardware, and other equipment, and guiding the torpedo in manually to it's
> > target. Need a gigaton from each torp to attack the large, slow moving
> > ships like a Borg cube, or the Empire's ISDs? No problem, load 20 kg of
> > antimatter and matter into the warhead, there's plenty enough room those
> > casings.
>
> They've never done this, even though it would help them in such battles,
> which indicates that is is highly unlikely that they will do so in the
> future.
It's a reasonable assumption based on considerable circumstantial
evidence, and yes it has been done to some degree! In DS9's
"Valiant" equipment was removed from a torpedo to make room for a more
powerful warhead for the attack on the Dominion battleship. How much the
crew of the Vailant put in there is cause for speculation since we know
that a torp casing can hold humanoid body of roughly 55-80 kg as seen in
ST:TOK, and TNG's "The Emissary". It should be too hard to load a combined
warhead of 40 kg in there as the cost of accuracy and manuvering. But
against large targets like an ISD, Dominion battleship, planetary target,
or Borg cubeship it's not all that important.
> > Really? Before the fleet opened fire on the spot designated, there seemed
> > to be no significant damage in that area. The hole only appeared, and
> > opened up as the fleet fired on that spot.
>
> Which is to be expected if you concentrate your firepower instead of
> spreading it out around multiple faces.
But as someone else pointed out, that is'nt necessarily what
happened. Picard only chose that spot as a target after hearing the Borg
collective "voice" in his head. They could've just as easily overloaded a
system that was fluctuating and in danger of going critical, which is also
in line with the way the cube blows up with numerous internal explosions
rather than one big one.
> > gets to use some of it's own. Take for example the E-D travelling
> > 2,700,000 LY in "Where No One Has Gone Before" in only a minute thanks to
> > the Traveller. Or V'Ger's exploration of the ENTIRE universe in less than
> > 300 years as per ST:TMP!
>
> The Infiltrator is a normal ship, and was not helped along by an outside
> entity such as the traveller.
Then why say it's special? Either it is normal, or it is unusual in SW
terms, and V'Ger most certainly did not use any outside help in it's
exploration of the entire universe. But at any rate, the slipstream drive
is very fast as seen in "Timeless" travelling at tens of thousands of LY
in only mere minutes. Thus you have a drive that is considerably faster
than that employed even on Darth Maul's Sith Infiltrator.
> > Again, as per "Truce At Bakura", it was'nt done by Imperial forces to deny
> > a powerful new enemy the Bakura system a foothold, and it's not very
> > likely to be done if the Borg invade. At least in the initial stages of a
> > Borg invasion.
>
> That is because there were still Imperial citizens living on the
> planet. Borg are not imperial citizens.
That assumes that the Borg would also stand by and let their drones be
BDZed, or that they would just stop at whatever backwater system they
first encountered. And as far as the Empire knows about the Borg, their
people on the planet's surface ARE still citizens.
> For some odd reason the races living in close proximity to the Borg
> don't seem to be worried about them. You'd think that the Kazon and
> such should be deathly afraid of a borg attack.
As pointed out elsewhere, the Kazon were not considered worthy of
assimulation by the Borg. And we've seen in recent VGR episodes such as
"Tsunakatse", and "Childs Play" that the Borg are very feared, and hated
even some tens of thousands of LY from their space. Even as far back as
VR's "Blood Fever" the surviors of a Borg attack live underground in
fear of the Borg returning.
> > So? After at least a month, or more of constant fighting with S8472.
>
> So several hundred cubes is still a large blow to the Borg, even if they
> occurred over a month.
Actually we don't know the timescales involved for that loss, there was a
huge battle between Borg ships, and S8472 going on, and it might've just
been a reference to that alone.
> > Need
> > we aslo remind you that the New Republic was very worried about Admiral
> > Thrawn getting ahold of the 200 Katana fleet dreadnaughts in HTE?
>
> 200 dreadnoughts would upset the balance of power, which is enough of a
> reason to be worried. If I have 200 more ships than you do, then I can
> cause damage by using them as a mobile force.
But if both the post RoTJ Empire, and new Republic have hundreds
of millions or billions of ships it should make no difference at
all to them one way or the other.
> Yes it is, as if they controlled that much space, and are as invincible
> as you would suggest, then they should have assimilated the majority of
> the galaxy in the roughly 10,000 years they have existed.
This is dealt with elsewhere in this thread, the Borg are meticulous in
their efforts and do not have a need to go rampaging across the galaxy
spreading themselves out like the Empire does.
> Then sterilize the planet, and kill any borg cubes you come across. The
> borg are not a dangerous enemy, because several races with technology
> inferior to that of the federation can sit only days from their border
> and not worry about attacks.
Like the alien colony in "Blood Fever"? Yeah they were so unconcerned
about the Borg they had taken to hiding, and were zenophobic about any
visitors to their world. Nope, no concern whatsoever there.
> S8472 ships do not have firepower greater than anything else, as they
> hit Voyager, and did not instantly destroy the ship. The bioships
> firepower does not even begin to approach that of the DS1.
One shot from a damaged, and just powering up vessel did the equivelant of
bitch-slapping Voyager around. Later on in Part II, Voyager would've
been destroyed by a bioship if not for the intervention of the escorting
Borg cube.
<STUFF SNIPPED SINCE IT IS ANSWERED ELSEWHERE>
> You are avoiding the point, that if the borg did not adapt to the rock
> with their ships, then it is foolish to assume that their drones can
> adapt to impacts. This leads to borg drones being defeated easily by a
> modern army.
Let's see, two Borg drones take the fire of a Tommy Gun with a drum
magazine, and Picard did empty the entire magazine into both drones, that
suggests that maybe they have some ability to adapt to such things, and if
it takes that much effort to kill them, then a modern day army would be in
for a tough time.
As for the ships, the closest we've come to that is when the Cube Janeway
is on is hit by the debris blown into space by the S8472's attack on the
Borg planet, and the two Borg vessels destroyed were not destroyed by
flying rock debris, but the resulting energy shockwave.
> Ewoks are not simply teddy bears, they are strong enough to carry
> Chewbacca between two of them and not even struggle. Chewie must weigh
> over 200 pounds, as he is over 7' tall.
So what, even with that as a given, we have seen Borg taken in hand to
hand only by Worf (who has been demonstated time and again as being much
stronger than your average human), Data, and of course S8472.
<MORE STUFF SNIPPED>
> This only happens because we use lower limits for the SW weapons to be
> nice to the trek side. When the trek side decides to use inflated upper
> limits,
Yeah right, everything the Trek side is inflated upper level stuff, but
none of the SW stuff is?
> then we move up to our next middle of the road estimates.
And so will we, and so it will never end.
-Mike
Allen W. McDonnell
Chris <cho...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:38e2eac2...@news.mpls.uswest.net...
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:26:34 +1200, Jonathan Willis
> <ja...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> >Thats the point of black holes; they are very massive, by definition.
> >The Chandrasakar(sp) limit for a star becoming a Neutron Star is about
> >1.4 solar masses. I can't remember what the limit is to become a black
> >hole, but its higher than this.
> >
> <snip>
>
> Acutaly, if I remember my texbooks correctly, it's ~1.3 solar masses
> to become a Neutron Star (becomes a white dwarf if less), and just
> over 1.4 to become a black hole. I can look them up next time I'm
> over at my GF's house (she's got the textbooks now...)
Can't swear to it but I beleive a Neutron Star is 1.4 and a BH is 2.3 or
more Solar masses.
--
Life is what YOU make of it, so why are you sitting there reading this?
Allen W. McDonnell
AIM Tanada1945, YIM Tanada1945
ICQ 44757320
Email Tan...@provide.spam.net
Lame home page http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Galaxy/1671/index.html
Dalton
> >> ( one hundred thousand lightyears)
>
> >Ours is that, the SW galaxy is 120,000.
>
>
I'm fairly sure it comes from one of the essential or galaxy guides.
> >> that, of course, is across the disk. Not sure what the maximum
> >> distance from the "top" of the nucleus to the "bottom" is..
> >> ( the galaxy is shaped a bit like the saucer section of the
> >> Enterprise-A) :-)
> >>
>
> >I think the maximum is a few hundred.
>
> Well, no. The nucleus is larger than that. A few thousand, more like.
> you are probably thinking of the thickness of the "disk".
>
Tru 'dat
> >> Though there is not actual "edge".. the stars and interstellar matter
> >> (dust, gas, etc) just get more and more thinly spread.
> >>
>
> >That would be the halo of the galaxy...
>
> Not the same thing.. I'm talking about the edge of the disk.. where
> the spiral arms reach.
>
*nods* I see what ye mean.
> >> By contrast, the Andromeda galaxy (about the same size) is around 2
> >> million ly away - 20 times the width of the Milky Way galaxy.
>
> >I think there are a couple of smaller galaxies a bit closer.
>
> Indeed there are. The Andromeda one is simply the closest of
> comparable size to our own.
Ah, cool.
--
Dalton | AIM: RobPDalton | ICQ: 50342303
"There's Florida. I like the shape of the state.
It looks like we're pissing on Cuba." ---Gallagher
Kyle
>
> Scottty wrote:
> >
> > Dalton <dalto...@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Scottty wrote:
> > >>
> > [snip]
> > >>
> > >> 100 000 ly across is the figure I've always been told.
> > >> ( one hundred thousand lightyears)
> >
> > >Ours is that, the SW galaxy is 120,000.
> >
> > Ah, sorry for the confusion. What source gives that number?
> >
>
> I'm fairly sure it comes from one of the essential or galaxy guides.
>
I think it's BTM.
--
Kyle Knopf
Dalton
>
> In alt.startrek.vs.starwars Dalton <dalto...@erols.com> wrote:
> > Matthew Hyde wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jonathan Willis wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > means 20 billion people. Here in NZ we consider Auckland (1.5 million) a
> > > > > large city, and even elsewhere in our world any city of a few million is
> > > > > large. There are a few cities in the SW galaxy of trillions of people,
> > > > > but how do we know what they consider large? It could be anywhere from
> > > > > millions (which suggests energies at about the asteroid lower limit) to
> > > > > trillions (which suggests 1e26 J per shot), and is obviously far too
> > > > > wide a range to be useful.
> > >
> > > > That's not the estimate he uses for his general firepower of an ISD
> > > > though, is it.
> > >
> > > You fool! Watts and people are interchangeable!
> > >
>
> > I'm a lightbulb.
>
> I'm a squirtbottle. I win.
Do not.
--
Dalton | AIM: RobPDalton | ICQ: 50342303
ALL HAIL BRAK
Commander Thelea
< snip >
There are One Million MEMBER worlds in the Galactic Empire.
However, there are also 50 Million Colonies, Protectorates and
Governorships, IE, minor worlds.
That is according to WEG. Every single time someone says one
million worlds, it's obviously in the context of the one million
member worlds.
However, since people also say twelve million worlds,
and "Twenty million sentient species" in official texts, it's
clear that there are many, many worlds in the Galactic Empire..
Many more than one million.
My theory is as follows:
1 Million worlds with populations greater than 1 Trillion.
11 Million worlds with populations of less than one trillion but
more than one billion.
39 Million worlds with populations of less than one billion.
20 million sentient species, sometimes with more than one on a
planet.
That is the full size of the Empire, matching ALL data.
Marina O'Leary
Admiral Korel
>>
>
>satellite galaxies orbiting our own.
Acutally, there are something like ten small galaxies near our own. The
three Magellanic Clouds, of course, and Leo I and II... I can't remember the
names of the others.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morgan McEvoy, morg...@esatclear.ie
"It's like the laws of physics just went out the window."
"And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient!"
Admiral Korel
>to a 500 line post without snipping any of the body?
Please ignore this guy. He's a few isolinear chips short of a computer core,
if ya know what I mean.
Graeme Dice
>
> >All we ever saw it do was land on the planet. We know that SW sensors
> >have a detection range for starships of at least 7 light-years. Given 1
> >million probes, and spending a ridiculously long time of half an hour
> >per scanning stop, it will take less than three months to map an entire
> >galaxy down to the starship scale.
>
> mission as you describe would leave the Empire with little idea of brown
> dwarf populations, for example.
Why? Their communication range is over 100 light years with subspace
radio. The 7 lightyear radius figure is extremely conservative, and is
an extreme lower limit. I find it difficult to believe that a small
starship is easier to detect than a massive cold star.
>
> >They've never done this, even though it would help them in such battles,
> >which indicates that is is highly unlikely that they will do so in the
> >future.
>
> Mike's implication was pretty clearly that they probably /had/ done this on
> Voyager.
Which Mike?
> >
> >Which is to be expected if you concentrate your firepower instead of
> >spreading it out around multiple faces.
>
> It was patently obvious from the entire context of the scene that Picard
> knew that firing on that specific point would be the most effective tactic.
> Not simply that concentrated fire is better than distributed (in fact, it is
> often less effective, since being hit in two places at once means that you
> have to distribute your shield surge capacity between the two hits). IIRC,
> Picard hears Borg voices immediately before giving the order; if the movie
> includes even a little of the novel's material in this area, the voices
> mention a shield fluctuation.
This seems ridiculous to me, as when you concentrate your firepower, you
force a single emitter to provide more energy, but when you spread it
out, the emitters are not as overworked.
>
> >For some odd reason the races living in close proximity to the Borg
> >don't seem to be worried about them. You'd think that the Kazon and
> >such should be deathly afraid of a borg attack.
>
> Why would they be? The races we've seen have little or no interesting
> attributes. The Kazon are described as "detracting from perfection", and the
> Borg specifically /didn't/ assimilate them. The Vidiians would made terrible
> drones; one assimilation would get their medical tech, which is all the Borg
> would want. Of all the other races we saw on the "far side" of Borg space
> (from Earth), only the Sikarans had an interesting tech, and it may not have
> been widely known of outside their world. All the races seemed to be limited
> to single planets, and not very advanced. The Federation seems to be the
> only civilisation with few interesting attributes which the Borg keeps
> trying to assimilate, and it seems that at this point it is more of a grudge
> match. Or perhaps the Borg simply want that human nobility for themselves,
> or to prevent it from existing outside the Collective.
So the Borg are content to sit within there own borders. They are
hardly a worry for the Empire then.
>
> The point is that the Borg are not indiscriminate conquerors. They only take
> what they don't have. Slowly expanding a concentrated power base seems much
> more viable than "conquering" the entire galaxy in one fell swoop (besides
> the fact that slow expansion gives primitive cultures a chance to ripen).
If they wanted primitive cultures to ripen, then they would not go back
in time to Earth before they even had warp drive.
> >
> >Yes it is, as if they controlled that much space, and are as invincible
> >as you would suggest, then they should have assimilated the majority of
> >the galaxy in the roughly 10,000 years they have existed.
>
> Why? Why would they /want/ to assimilate the entire galaxy? Would that make
> them perfect?
Yes, it would make the galaxy perfect, instead of being the chaos of
unpredictable races it is now.
>
> Just because they haven't taken over the galaxy yet doesn't mean that they
> don't control several million worlds within the space they /do/ posess.
There might not even be several million planets in that space.
>
> >S8472 ships do not have firepower greater than anything else, as they
> >hit Voyager, and did not instantly destroy the ship. The bioships
> >firepower does not even begin to approach that of the DS1.
>
> The bioship that shot Voyager could easily still have been powering up (it
> fires while its engines are only starting to glow, IIRC).
Yet we still se that Voyager's shields received a full hit, which should
have completely destroyed the ship, even at a fraction of the power that
has been claimed for S8472 beams.
>
> >Data's statement can be as wrong as the TM.
>
> Er, not really. Trek has this thing called "canon"...
So then we know that a 400 GW beam can bring down a GCS shields
completely. Thanks for reminding me of what canon is. Data has made as
many if not more mistakes than any other member of the crew in using
units. "We are currently producing 12 billion terrawatts per", is but
one example of his idiotic mistakes.
>
> >That's if there are enough of the central ships in the S8472 formation,
> >and that the formation is maneuverable enough to actually hit something
> >smaller than a planet. We know that cubes can be destroyed by less than
> >planet-killing firepower, which means that S8472's individual weapons
> >are much less powerful than the beam emitted by the central ship when
> >powered by the others.
>
> I think he meant a few ships firing at once, not using the megagun option.
Exactly. A few ships firing at once destroyed the cubes, which we know
can be destroyed by a fraction of the amount of energy involved with the
S8472 planet killer gun. The cubes were destroyed by the exploding
planet, which must deliver less energy than the planet killer.
Graeme Dice
--
Crash programs fail because they are based on the theory that,
with nine women pregnant, you can get a baby a month.
-- Wernher von Braun
Dwayne Allen Day
:> no
:> wait sorry, what am I saying
:> of course your right
:> I would press "cancel" but I cant be bothered.
: Dude, what are you ON!
I think in his case it is a _lack_ of medication that is the problem.
DDAY
Dwayne Allen Day
: Couldn't you simply apply Drake's Equation to give you a nice workable number
: on habitable planets?
Nope. For one thing, the Drake Equation is out of date. For another, the
dataset is incomplete.
DDAY
Jonathan Willis
> ISD's lack the raw firepower needed to penetrate
> many of the affluent core world's defensive shields. Thus, if they
> wanted to rebel, they just put up their shields, thumb their nose at
> the Emperor, and that would be that. The Death Star changed all that.
True. But it still means the Empire can maintain control of many worlds
with one ship. This example proves your assumptions that they need 1
ship per planet is wrong.