Kirk v Picard -- Who Would The Crews Want As Captain?
Scott J Gorcey
sees his role to 1701-D just about the same way Spock saw his to TOS
when he (Spock) commented, "No where am I so needed than among a crew
of illogical (etc) humans." Worf: "No where am I so needed than among
a crew that asks questions first and shoots later." Or something like
that. He still might prefer Kirk, but wittness his reaction to serving
with Klingons in "Redemption II" -- he preferred tactics, strategy,
THINKING things through, as opposed to berserker rages and SEAT OF
THE PANTS INTUITION. Describe a couple of captains we know and what
Worf's preferences truly are?
Then again, what about Uhura? It's quite obvious her talents would
have flourished more under Picard than Kirk (tho perhaps this is the
difference in format between the two shows talking).
Interesting thread, this. Let's continue it.
Douglas Fowler
In a previous article, v075...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) says:
>Worf would rather serve under Kirk? Maybe. Personally, I think he
>sees his role to 1701-D just about the same way Spock saw his to TOS
>when he (Spock) commented, "No where am I so needed than among a crew
>of illogical (etc) humans." Worf: "No where am I so needed than among
>a crew that asks questions first and shoots later." Or something like
>that. He still might prefer Kirk, but wittness his reaction to serving
>with Klingons in "Redemption II" -- he preferred tactics, strategy,
>THINKING things through, as opposed to berserker rages and SEAT OF
>THE PANTS INTUITION. Describe a couple of captains we know and what
>Worf's preferences truly are?
>
Kirk could be a GREAT tactician at times - he just didn't use it as often.
The E never needed a security chief in TOS, though. He could probably have
been a helmsman or something.
I'm not sure he would dislike Kirk. There have been episodes
where his warrior instincts have sprung forth. I think you're right in that
he would rather serve with humans than with Klingons, but he could take
either assignment and run with it.
>Then again, what about Uhura? It's quite obvious her talents would
>have flourished more under Picard than Kirk (tho perhaps this is the
>difference in format between the two shows talking).
>
Yaah, let's see her as ship's counselor. She'd be just as good as
Troi, if not better :-)
Seriously, though, there was one episode where they chased a wayward
Romulan vessel into the Neutral Zone, and Kirk and their captain staged a
battle of wits. (both alternating on total silence, the Romulan launching
that nuclear device to try to catch the E napping, etc. One of my favorite
episodes.) Anyway, when a couple bridge personnel went down, Uhura took
over naviagation for the remainder of the show. So, she certainly had the
skills.
I think most of the crews could survive under either captain, but I
have no clue what Troi would do under Kirk. Similarly, Riker might not
be happy at science officer on the Enterprise. I wonder how well McCoy could
get along with Worf, too. Spock was able to take McCoy's sarcasm, etc.,
surrounding Spock's lack of emotion, etc. If McCoy had had the same attitude
when talking with Worf, whose culture was also VERY different, I don't know
if Worf could have taken it without getting angry. I doubt the camaraderie
that developed between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy could have developed between
Worf and McCoy.
--
Doug Fowler: dx...@po.CWRU.edu : "Every baby born into the world is
Real home: Canton, Ohio : finer than the last."--Charles Dickens
Trying to follow in the path of our : "A baby is an inestimable
Lord;anything close will be a success: blessing and bother."--Mark Twain
Chuin, you're amazing. No, I am better than that.
>with Klingons in "Redemption II" -- he preferred tactics, strategy,
>THINKING things through, as opposed to berserker rages and SEAT OF
>THE PANTS INTUITION. Describe a couple of captains we know and what
>Worf's preferences truly are?
Kirk was also a thinking man. Time and time again he has shown us that he is
a Master of Strategy. Take for instance, his battle with the Gorn in "Arena".
He thought about multiple ways to vanquish his opponent. Eventually, he put
together the idea of a simple cannon. A "Seat of the Pants" thinker would not
have been able to do such a thing. I agree that he has used that tactic often,
but are also shown that he is tactical with the best of them.
*******************************************************************************
"Fans are interesting things. Rush fans just can't comprehend why the
rest of the world doesn't like Rush. REM fans consider the rest of the world
beneath their social level to notice. Kate Bush fans love the rest of the
world, and the world loves them, but spend long nights plotting to knife
one another." --Richard Darwin
Richard Darwin #33, "Gradenza"
*******************************************************************************
"It's Nothing. It's just a private joke between me and whoever is going to
be my analyst." - Cary Grant "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House" (1948)
*******************************************************************************
v129j6ed@ubvms
The KaTeFan(tm)
Chuin, you're amazing. No, I am better than that.
> I think most of the crews could survive under either captain, but I
>have no clue what Troi would do under Kirk. Similarly, Riker might not
If we were in the "Mirror, Mirror" universe, she would have an obvious place
on the ship. ;)
Joseph Zell
most (his "relations" with many women) is the strongest trait present in
Picard's first officer? Read the net, people, and you will see there are many
comments about Riker doing the exact same things that Kirk was. But since
Picard ONLY picked a man who sleeps around to be second in command of his
ship, and doesn't do it himself, Picard is completely blameless, while Kirk is
a fiend. I am tired of all these complaints about Kirk. If you watch the show,you will see that the same thing you complain about in the old series is just
as prevelant in the new one, just one rung down the chain of command ladder.
*dons flame suit*
Joe
ze...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Timothy W. Lynch
TOS CREW UNDER PICARD:
Spock: Based on what we saw in "Unification", I suspect he'd probably end up
having less friction with Picard than with Kirk, simply because he's less
impulsive and emotional. I'm not at all sure that Spock would want that,
though; he seems to thrive on the challenge having Kirk (let alone Bones)
around created.
McCoy: McCoy, like most Trek doctors [IMHO], was rather anti-Prime Directive,
which means I think he'd be happier under Kirk. He'd never have even dreamed
of doing the mindwipe used in "Pen Pals" and "Who Watches the Watchers", and
probably would have made arguments similar to Bev's in "Symbiosis".
The other four are tougher, since we know so much less about them. Let's see.
Scotty: Truth be told, I'm not sure he'd have much of a preference if the
ship was the same in both cases. Kirk seemed to share more of a love for the
actual vessel with Scotty than Picard does for the -D, though, so he'd probably
want to stay put.
Sulu: Tough to tell, I think. He seems to enjoy and inspire the same loyalty
Kirk did by ST6, but it's tough to say how differently he'd have ended up in
Picard's time and under his command. I don't think I can call this one.
Chekov: Even more of a cipher than Sulu here. No call.
Uhura: Despite the still-too-humanocentric nature of the Enterprise by TNG's
time, we do have more races around there than we did on the original. I think
she'd enjoy the multiculturalism. I also think that, given Picard's inclina-
tion to diplomacy rather than battle, she'd have more of a job under him than
Kirk. She'd probably enjoy Picard's command.
TNG CREW UNDER KIRK:
Riker: Riker's very much a Kirk/Gary Mitchell type; very bold, very rash,
very seat-of-the-pants, very impulsive. He might enjoy himself more under
Kirk, but I think he'd get more OUT of serving under Picard, and I also think
he knows that.
Beverly: Romantic interest aside, I suspect she'd be less than enchanted with
the redshirt death toll under Kirk's command.
Geordi: Similarly to Scott, I'm not sure he'd have a preference. No call
here.
Data: Definitely Picard. He has enough trouble understanding and coming to
terms with relatively *stable* humans. :-)
Troi: Picard, definitely. She'd be completely out of place on Kirk's ship,
and I doubt Kirk would give a damn what she had to say most of the time.
Worf: This is a tough call. On the other hand, he'd get more battle action
under Kirk; but on the other, I agree with Scott Gorcey that he'd like a
well-planned battle. (The film-era Kirk was fairly good at that; both ST2
and ST6 showed a seasoned warrior who knew what he was doing. But this is the
TOS era I'm talking about, and I didn't see much planning there.) I think
he'd probably prefer the film-era Kirk above all; well, okay, aside from Kirk's
little problem with Klingons. :-)
(Along those lines, I think it's fair to say that while Kirk is a poker
player ["The Corbomite Maneuver"], Picard's more of a chess player ["Redemption
II", among other places]. Picard, when he finally gets promoted up to
Admiral, will have the time of his life planning out fleet strategies.)
Thoughts?
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"Science is the only self-correcting human institution, but it also is a
process that progresses only by showing itself to be wrong."
--Allan Sandage
Robert A Seace
I agree with Tim's assessment almost 100%. Just a minor bit, below:
In article <1992Mar2.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>Interesting thread indeed. Let's see where it goes.
>
>TOS CREW UNDER PICARD:
>
>Chekov: Even more of a cipher than Sulu here. No call.
>
I don't know. I saw Chekov as a Kirk-wanna-be, myself... He was
always the first to defend his honor (eg: "The Trouble With Tribbles"), and
seemed to always want to be like him... I can't see him as happy with
Picard...
>TNG CREW UNDER KIRK:
>
>Data: Definitely Picard. He has enough trouble understanding and coming to
>terms with relatively *stable* humans. :-)
>
Heh. :-) Actually, Data might enjoy the some of the situations and
experiences under Kirk's command... But, of course, Kirk would probably
get mad at him sometime and make him self-destruct as he has done with
every other computer/robot/whatever he's encountered. :-)
>(Along those lines, I think it's fair to say that while Kirk is a poker
>player ["The Corbomite Maneuver"], Picard's more of a chess player ["Redemption
>II", among other places]. Picard, when he finally gets promoted up to
>Admiral, will have the time of his life planning out fleet strategies.)
>
I would agree with this completely... Though, that's not to say
that Kirk doesn't have a bit of chess player in him as well, nor Picard a
bit of poker player in him... They just have completely different styles
for solving the same problem. I just happen to like Kirk's approach much
more.
||======================================================================||
|| Robert A. Seace || Junior at UNH || E-mail: r...@kepler.unh.edu ||
|| AKA: Agrajag || CS major || or, maybe: r...@nic.unh.edu ||
||======================================================================||
"That young girl is one of the least benightedly unintelligent organic
life forms is has been my profound lack of pleasure not to be able to
avoid meeting." - Life, the Universe and Everything
Gene Roddenberry: 1921-1991. You will be missed.
May your dream "Live long and prosper".
Robert Burbank
>TOS CREW UNDER PICARD:
>TNG CREW UNDER KIRK:
>Thoughts?
excellent break down!!! i think i agree compleatly!
John T. whelan
>Interesting thread indeed. Let's see where it goes.
>TNG CREW UNDER KIRK:
>Worf: This is a tough call. On the other hand, he'd get more battle action
>under Kirk; but on the other, I agree with Scott Gorcey that he'd like a
>well-planned battle. (The film-era Kirk was fairly good at that; both ST2
>and ST6 showed a seasoned warrior who knew what he was doing. But this is the
>TOS era I'm talking about, and I didn't see much planning there.) I think
>he'd probably prefer the film-era Kirk above all; well, okay, aside from Kirk's
>little problem with Klingons. :-)
I think that Worf, as with Riker, might enjoy serving under
Kirk more, but benefits more from serving under Picard. As time has
progressed, Picard has become more and more of a father/authority
figure for Worf. I agree that as of first season TNG, Worf would have
preferred Kirk to Picard ("Surrender to the damn Ferengi?!"), but by
third season he was definitely enjoying the mix of discipline and
respect Picard gave him in episodes like "The Emissary" and "The
Enemy". Worf's choice of Picard as his cha'Dich in "Sins of the
Father" is evidence enough for me. (I suppose one problem here is
that the TNG characters have evolved over the years, especially since
they'd never workd together when the show started.)
BTW, Tim, you left out a few; what about Wesley, Ro and Janice
Rand?
As with Worf, Picard is something of a father figure for
Wesley and Ro, although the three relationships are very different.
Despite Picard's claims of not liking children, I'm sure that
Wesley would prefer Picard's command to almost anyone's, any time
after "Samaritan Snare". For Kirk, specifically, I think the violent
and dangerous nature of the original E's missions would have turned
Wesley off to a carreer in Starfleet (as evidenced by his
conversations with Picard in "Contagion"), not least because it would
remind him of his father's death.
While Ro is working to fit in under Picard (and to fit into
the command structure of the 24th century Starfleet), I think she
would enjoy much more Kirk's style of "cowboy diplomacy" and his
contempt for beaurocrats.
As for Rand, I'll leave speculation of which captain she'd
rather be under to Stephen. :-)
John Whelan
--
"You can't possibly be a scientist if you
mind people thinking that you're a fool."
-- Wonko the Sane, _So_Long,_
_and_Thanks_for_All_the_Fish_
Timothy W. Lynch
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>TNG CREW UNDER KIRK:
>>Worf: This is a tough call. On the other hand, he'd get more battle action
>>under Kirk; but on the other, I agree with Scott Gorcey that he'd like a
>>well-planned battle. (The film-era Kirk was fairly good at that; both ST2
>>and ST6 showed a seasoned warrior who knew what he was doing. But this is the
>>TOS era I'm talking about, and I didn't see much planning there.) I think
>>he'd probably prefer the film-era Kirk above all; well, okay, aside from
>>Kirk's little problem with Klingons. :-)
> I think that Worf, as with Riker, might enjoy serving under
>Kirk more, but benefits more from serving under Picard.
Probably true. The question is which one he'd choose, though. I figured
Riker would obviously want to be serving under the one he gets more benefits
from; I'm not sure the initial Worf would think that long-term. Currently, I
think you're right, and that he's developed a respect for Picard's tactics
[he certainly enjoyed the end of "The Defector"! :-) ].
>(I suppose one problem here is
>that the TNG characters have evolved over the years, especially since
>they'd never workd together when the show started.)
'Tis true.
> BTW, Tim, you left out a few; what about Wesley, Ro and Janice
>Rand?
I left out Wes because he's gone. Ro I relegated to Guinan status, as a
semi-regular. Janice Rand I completely forgot about. :-) [I left out
O'Brien too, but you didn't catch THAT one; and he's been in more shows
than either Ro or Rand. Nyah.]
> Despite Picard's claims of not liking children, I'm sure that
>Wesley would prefer Picard's command to almost anyone's, any time
>after "Samaritan Snare".
Absolutely. No argument a'tall here.
> While Ro is working to fit in under Picard (and to fit into
>the command structure of the 24th century Starfleet), I think she
>would enjoy much more Kirk's style of "cowboy diplomacy" and his
>contempt for beaurocrats.
I don't think we know Ro well enough to really gauge it. We've seen
essentially none of her interactions with Picard on board, but she *did*
accept his challenge to stay at the outset. I don't want to make a call here.
> As for Rand, I'll leave speculation of which captain she'd
>rather be under to Stephen. :-)
:-)
Tim Lynch
Mogwai
>Interesting thread indeed. Let's see where it goes.
>
>
>Riker: Riker's very much a Kirk/Gary Mitchell type; very bold, very rash,
>very seat-of-the-pants, very impulsive. He might enjoy himself more under
>Kirk, but I think he'd get more OUT of serving under Picard, and I also think
>he knows that.
>
think Riker and Kirk would always be arguing and since they are both
stuborn, they would be at each other's throats in a short time. Of
course Riker would follow orders as any good StarFleet officer would,
but I think he would get in trouble under Kirk.
Case in Point, in Sins of the Father, Kurn took a very agressive,
authoritarian attitude with Riker, and he really didn't like it too
much. I know that this must be one of the only times that someone has
compared Kirk to a Klingon, but I think that the rationale fits. Riker
would do his duty under Kirk, but IMHO he would not enjoy it.
--
"What I need is the company of a charming | BrightLightBrightLight
intelligent woman."--Reg Barkley, The Nth Degree | jlr...@ravel.udel.edu
=========================================================================
'Canes are Dynamite!!!! Go UM, Hurricanes are #1
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1992Mar2.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>TNG CREW UNDER KIRK:
>>
>>Riker: Riker's very much a Kirk/Gary Mitchell type; very bold, very rash,
>>very seat-of-the-pants, very impulsive. He might enjoy himself more under
>>Kirk, but I think he'd get more OUT of serving under Picard, and I also think
>>he knows that.
>>
>I think that I would have to disagree with you on the enjoyment part. I
>think Riker and Kirk would always be arguing and since they are both
>stuborn, they would be at each other's throats in a short time.
[...]
>Case in Point, in Sins of the Father, Kurn took a very agressive,
>authoritarian attitude with Riker, and he really didn't like it too
>much.
Case in Counterpoint: Kirk and Gary Mitchell. Mitchell didn't always
strike me as much for the "superior authority" concept, but he and Kirk
got along famously.
I think both positions are supportable, really.
Tim Lynch