new Vulcan and romulan theory???
shiloh
evolved togeher on Romulus, but as seperete sub species. Ie Humans and
neanderthals.
Sarak and his followers adopt a less violent way of life. This small sect
decide to leave Romulus and crash land on Vulcan. Thus evolving on their own
for the next 2 thousand years.
????
Chris Applegate
> Is what I read true? Trek officials are now saying that Romulans and Vulcans
> evolved togeher on Romulus, but as seperete sub species. Ie Humans and
> neanderthals.
Where did you read that? It sounds very unlikely. We know that Vulcans
have been around for more than 2 thousand years, and that "those who
marched under the raptor's wings" were on Vulcan at the time of Surak,
not the other way around.
Chris
TROC
Benjamin Pavsner
1. Vulcan is very dry and arid. While it has some water, how likely is it
that much life, much less that as evolved as the Vulcans, can evolve in such
a climate.
2. Why is it that Vulans have telepathic abilities and Romulans don't?
Because Vulcans have something in their bodies Romulans don't, something
evolution would have to create.
"Chris Applegate" <ChrisAp...@cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:crlu50$p3k$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Chris Applegate
> 1. Vulcan is very dry and arid. While it has some water, how likely is it
> that much life, much less that as evolved as the Vulcans, can evolve in such
> a climate.
Addressed in TOS, IIRC. Spock admitted that Vulcan may have been seeded
by Sargon's people. (The progenitor race in "The Chase" may have had a
hand in Vulcan genesis, as well.) If Vulcans had evolved alongside
another species, developed space travel, and resettled en masse on
Vulcanis, I think Spock would've mentioned it then or in "Balance of
Terror."
> 2. Why is it that Vulans have telepathic abilities and Romulans don't?
Do we know that? We've never seen a Romulan do a mind meld, but that's a
telepathic *technique*. Do we know that they utterly lack the *ability*?
> Because Vulcans have something in their bodies Romulans don't, something
> evolution would have to create.
That works both ways; the common ancestor of modern Vulcans and Romulans
may have been telepathic, and that trait may have been bred out of the
Romulans. Anyway, we now know that the Vulcans repressed their
telepathic natures after abandoning the teachings of Surak, and at
approximately the same time, they came under the covert influence of
Romulus. Perhaps Romulans are doctrinally opposed to the use of
telepathy; it was not Surak's logic-trumps-emotion teachings that drove
them off planet, but his free use of telepathy. When the Romulans began
their 22nd century reunification campaign, the first thing they do is
have their agents marginalize telepathy, and then the Vulcans revert to
their classical modes of behavior.
Chris
TROC
shiloh
Vulcan thousands of years ago it seems more likely - considering the
cultural characteristics of the two races - that the opposite is true and
that the Vulcans in fact originated on Romulus and emigrated from that
planet to the inhospitable sphere that became their home.
That both the Vulcans and the Romulans have an inaccurate view of their own
history is not unimaginable. Both races have a long history of keeping
secrets, even from their own people, and obfuscating (or repressing) the
truth for various reasons. Suffice to say it is possible that the story has
been altered over time.
But why should we not believe the generally accepted version of events? For
three reasons:
a.. From what we have seen of Romulus, it is a much more hospitable
environment than Vulcan and it is much more likely that intelligent life
would thrive in such a place.
b.. The Romulans are warlike, aggressive and territorial while Vulcans are
peaceloving and logical. If there was a conflict between two such races,
even in the distant past, it seems highly unlikely that the aggressive race
would leave, conceding the planet to the less aggressive people. Leaving a
place of conflict rather than staying and fighting to the bitter end is a
logical and peaceloving solution.
c.. The iron discipline of logic that Surak taught would be perfectly
suited to a people that were trapped together in a confined space for a long
period of time. For instance a population on a pre-warp, multi-generational
"ark" ship! This would explain the near unanimous embrace of logic among the
Vulcans. It is easier to imagine a whole people accepting logic and
rejecting emotions when the horizon is limited. It is more difficult to
imagine a warlike people on a vast desert planet all accepting one way of
doing things that runs counter to their very nature.
For these reasons we propose the following scenario: The Romulans and
Vulcans inhabit the same planet. Perhaps they are the same species or
perhaps they are slightly different from each other (like earth's bonobos
and chimpanzees). In any case there is a profound and inescapable animosity
between the two peoples and eventually either the Vulcans decide to leave
the planet or, more likely, the Romulans kick them off. In any case a huge
population of Vulcans load onto a gigantic generational spacecraft and set
off at slower than light speeds. It takes generations to find a new home and
during that time the Vulcans adapt to life aboard the ship by embracing the
control and rationality that now characterizes them.
A tragic result of this theory also suggests itself: Perhaps not all the
Vulcans could fit on the ark. Perhaps the Romulans conquered the remaining
Vulcans and shipped them off to Remus where they evolved into the Remans.
Perhaps we'll never know for sure.
Why Are The Romulans and Vulcans Named After Roman Myths?
Vulcan, Romulus, Centurions, a Senate, these are all words and concepts that
existed on Earth millennia before humans joined the interstellar community,
so how could they possibly exist? One possible solution comes from an
encounter the crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise, under the command of Captain
James T. Kirk, had on Stardate 3468.1.
The Federation ship met with a being that called itself Apollo, and
described visiting Earth centuries earlier along with other beings like him.
These powerful space faring beings were looked upon and worshipped as "gods"
by the culturally primitive humans in the Mediterranean region of the
planet.
The misguided assumption that these terms originated on Earth is perhaps the
root of the mystery. If one assumes that these beings introduced much of
what would later be called Classical mythology to humanity, and if that
culture originated elsewhere in the galaxy, then it makes sense to connect
the dots leading to a theory that both Vulcans and Romulans also had contact
with these beings, contact which had broad-reaching implications.
If these powerful beings had also visited Vulcan and Romulus centuries
before coming to primitive Earth, it would explain a great many things, such
as why all three planets have so many words in common ("Vulcan," "Romulus,"
"Remus," etc.).
Then there's the question concerning the split between the Romulans and the
Vulcans, and as to how these two cultures, although sharing a planet of
origin, somehow managed to end up light years apart.
Despite the cosmetic similarities between Vulcans and Romulans (pointed
ears, jet-black hair until old age), there are definite differences between
the two peoples. Vulcans not only possess greater physical strength but also
mental abilities far beyond the Romulans, who are much closer to humans in
terms of strength and psychic power.
Since both Vulcans and Romulans originated on the same world, one of these
two planets was settled by one of these races. Given that the planet Vulcan
is quite inhospitable in comparison to Romulus, one can speculate that these
races originated on Romulus, and something happened which relocated the
Vulcans to their current planet.
Perhaps the "Roman God" beings arrived at Romulus and took on their roles as
"gods" before the two races. Much like Earth's Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon
races, it would not be a far stretch of the imagination to assume that the
primitive Vulcans and Romulans were on a course of annihilation for one of
the races. Given the physical and mental superiority of the Vulcans and
given that this was a time before Surak changed the course of Vulcan history
with his views on logic, it would make sense that the Vulcans would have
been the aggressors, pursuing a successful campaign of genocide against the
inferior Romulans.
The "Roman Gods," uninterested in such conflicts and more absorbed in how
primitive races could serve and worship them, could have separated the
Vulcans from the Romulans. Perhaps as punishment for the aggressive Vulcans'
treatment of the Romulans, the "Roman Gods" relocated the Vulcans to a
harsh, arid world and allowed the Romulans to remain. Maintaining a dim
memory of their own suppression by the Vulcans, Romulans would have evolved
into a militaristic society where guile and deceit are used to overcome
stronger enemies, and eventually a Romulan Star Empire.
The Vulcans, humbled by the experience, made their new planet their home and
eventually mastered their own savage emotions and mental abilities via the
groundbreaking teachings of Surak and meditation.
When the "Roman God" beings moved on (presumably making Earth one of their
stops along the way), their legacy remained in both the language and terms
of these two races, as they did for humanity on Earth as well.
Did The Q Continuum Separate the Vulcans and The Romulans?
There has been a great deal of historical speculation on the separation
between the Vulcans and the Romulans. The Vulcans reject the notion that
they could be related to a race that is so different than their own despite
undeniable links, both physical and genetic, between the two races. The
Romulans, on the other hand, believe Vulcan to be a lost colony of Romulus -
a theory unsubstantiated by the archeological record.
Common belief holds that the Romulans are decendants of Vulcans, the
Romulans having left Vulcan over 2000 years before the current Federation.
However, its not widely known how this was carried out since warp technology
has been a relatively recent technological advancement for both races.
The answer finally came to the Federation as a result of an incident on the
starship, U.S.S Voyager. It turns out that is was in fact the Q Continuum
that separated the Romulans and Vulcans from one another, over two thousand
years ago, when a member of the Q community indirectly started a war, which
almost destroyed the entire planet of Vulcan.
During that time, the Vulcans were a warlike people - smart, strong,
aggressive..and emotional. Then, a disgruntled Q introduced the concept of
logic and control over emotion to Surak as a way to end the continuous
fighting on Vulcan. After the Q left, some Vulcans hailed Surak as a
visionary leader, others as a madman who was bent on power and subjugation
of the Vulcan people. Vulcans took up arms against one another unlike that
world had ever seen. Terrible destruction resulted and countless lives were
lost.
The Q Continuum realized the incredible impact that the destruction of
Vulcan would have on the shape of the evolving universe and was thereby
moved to separate the two groups, in hopes that they would come together at
a later point. The Vulcans who rejected the teachings of Surak were moved to
another planet in the blink of an eye, left to fend for themselves. While
thousands died as a result of the displacement, they quickly dominated the
planet. When they finally developed space flight, they immediately conquered
the nearby planet, Remus, and subjugated the Remans as slave laborers.
While the hopes of the Q for the Vulcans to be reunited with their displaced
Romulans has yet to occur, a number of peace accords between the Federation
and the Romulan Empire have started to make this a reality.
Did the Romulans Leave Because the Vulcans Refused to Fight Anymore?
The history of other planets and cultures in our galaxy features remarkable
stories of violence, intrigue and epic proportions, none more so than the
true story behind the Romulan and Vulcan split that occurred 2,000 years
ago.
The planet of Vulcan contained two main continental bodies, the larger,
hotter one that spawned what we know today as the traditional Vulcan look
and ideology, the other, approximately 10,000 kilometers apart, featured the
race we would later know as the Romulans. The races looked remarkably
similar, with the Romulans featuring a more pronounced forehead than their
far-off Vulcan brethren who resided across the massive T'Kala Sea.
At one time in their history, both races were violent and frequently at war
with each other. However, once the Vulcans began to embrace the logical
teachings of one lone, stoic prophet of peace - Surak - the Romulans decided
that if they remained on the planet any longer, then they would find
themselves in the strange position of trying to wage war with a foe that no
longer had the taste for blood. The Romulans saw no challenge, honor or
anything to be gained by this. The Vulcans shifted to the total opposite of
what they once were and even gave up meat eating entirely. The Vulcans had
evolved into what they felt was a higher station in life.
A couple of millennia ago a benevolent, unknown alien race offered the
Romulans a new future in a far off star system. The Romulans were
enthusiastic and what followed was a mass exodus to another world to begin
life anew. The very idea of living unencumbered by any other cultures - on a
far away planet free to rule and conquer as they pleased - was too enticing
for them. However, following their mass exodus, the Romulans turned on the
very aliens who transported them to this new solar system - a bi-planetary
configuration called Romulus and Remus - and they were never heard from
again. Popular theories suggest that the Romulans stole much of their
technology, yet almost no information of this race exists today.
Prior to their arrival at Romulus, the Romulans were informed that the Reman
world contained life; the neo-conquerors were on Romulus for a few hundred
years before they began to subjugate their Reman neighbors, just as they had
tried to with the Vulcans back on their original homeworld. This early in
their new setting, Romulan priorities were to establish their own new world
first, erect their cities and such, before they could branch out into the
galaxy and establish what would later be called The Romulan Star Empire. The
rest is history.
.And Where Did Those Bumpy Foreheads Come From Anyway?
There has been much speculation about why Klingons of the mid-23rd century
look so radically different from those of earlier and later periods, but far
less discussion has been devoted to the more subtle disparity of the Romulan
appearance between the Captain Kirk era and the Captain Picard era. But the
question is just as significant: When did Romulans develop those protrusions
in their foreheads, and how?
The first visual contact with Romulans by the Federation in 2266 revealed
them to look identical to Vulcans, and it was learned they were actually
offshoots of the Vulcan race. Yet by the time the Enterprise-D encountered
the Romulans almost a hundred years later, there were differences. Is it
possible there was some sudden evolutionary spurt due to a genetic advantage
of having forehead bulges on planet Romulus that finally caught up with the
ex-Vulcans during that century?
Not likely, because - aside from the biological improbability - it wasn't
even a century. During the post-Praxis peace initiatives between the
Federation and the Klingons, there was a Romulan ambassador on Earth named
Nanclus who had a smooth forehead (not to mention a receding hairline). That
was 2293. And the U.S.S. Voyager was visited by a protruding-forehead
Romulan named Telek R'Mor from the past, i.e. the year 2351. So that's a
period of only 58 years. Assuming Romulans have the same relatively long
lifespan as Vulcans, that's not even close to one generation. So what
happened?
Well, how do we know something did happen? How do we know the
protruding-forehead Romulans weren't around in the Captain Kirk era, but we
just didn't happen to see them? In fact, they were around - because we know
that Pardek, the bulgy-headed Romulan whom Spock had a long friendship with,
became a senator in 2278, so unless he was less than 12 years old at time,
he would have been alive at the time Kirk's Enterprise first encountered his
people.
And how do we know the smooth-headed Romulans aren't still around in the
24th century? Take this into account: In 2368, we saw Spock dressed in
Romulan clothes walking openly through the capital city on Romulus ... and
no one batted an eye. Apparently Vulcan-like Romulans are still a common
sight a hundred years later.
We know there are several different races of the species called human, and
if an alien didn't know better he might think they all came from different
worlds. We know at least part of the population of Vulcan is dark-skinned,
as evidenced by Tuvok and his family. Perhaps there is more than one race of
Romulan as well, and one of those races is distinguished by a protruding
forehead.
It stands to reason that Romulan blood, while originating on Vulcan, has not
remained purely Vulcan. The Romulans are known to be imperialistic, and any
time one race conquers another there tends to be a certain degree of
cross-breeding. While Vulcans are generally averse to mixing chromosomes
with other species, there's no evidence that Romulans are the same way. And
let's not forget about the Remans, the Romulans' closest neighbors - could
those forehead protrusions have something to do with them? We also know that
in ancient times Romulans or "Romulan offshoots" settled on planets such as
Barradas III, Calder II, Yadalla Prime and Draken IV, and who knows what
genetic mutations might have developed among isolated groups that eventually
merged with others on Romulus.
So it is entirely possible, and in fact probable, that the Romulan Star
Empire encompasses several "nations" whose histories are as varied and
complex as those on Earth. We've also been reminded several times that
political machinations and power shifts are the norm in this multi-world
government. So it's not a stretch to conjecture that the smooth-headed race
of Romulans happened to be those that held more prominent positions of power
in the 23rd century (or at least, they were the ones who occupied the ships
roaming the Neutral Zone near Federation space), and the race with
protruding foreheads gained greater political status by the 24th century.
But no doubt diversity is a fact of life among Romulans - even if they're
not always comfortable with it - as with any significant population
T
<snipped 17ks worth of stuff>
Nope.
- We call them Vulcans, Romulans, etc due to translation. The Vulcans
themselves don't call themselves 'Vulcans'.
- Romulans took of from Vulcan, not the other way around. They were a
smaller group of people, the larger group would likely KILL You to
maintain order.
- The folks who are super logical are not the ones in power during the
rift between the Vulcans and the pre-Romulans.
It doesn't need any changing around.
TBerk
Benjamin Pavsner
disposal, whether it's brainwashing or a mindsifting device. There've been a
couple of times (when Geordi was captured and brainwashed, for one), that
they could have mindmelded, if they had it at their disposal.
"Chris Applegate" <ChrisAp...@cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:crmvck$2vv$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Russell Stewart
> That both the Vulcans and the Romulans have an inaccurate view of their own
> history is not unimaginable. Both races have a long history of keeping
> secrets, even from their own people, and obfuscating (or repressing) the
> truth for various reasons. Suffice to say it is possible that the story has
> been altered over time.
An analogy to this can be found on modern day earth: Japan and Korea.
Genetic analyses have determined that the Korean and Japanese people
share a recent common ancestry, which indicates that one was colonized
by the other. But which was the colonizer and which the colonized? Not
surprisingly, each one is insistent that *they* were the original
source, and even teach so in their history classes.
--
Russell Stewart | E-Mail: dia...@swcp.com
UNM CS Department | WWW: http://www.swcp.com/~diamond
"A man who claims superiority based on his 'honor' has none"
-Joe Shimkus
Ron Ritzman
> An analogy to this can be found on modern day earth: Japan and Korea.
> Genetic analyses have determined that the Korean and Japanese people
> share a recent common ancestry, which indicates that one was colonized
> by the other. But which was the colonizer and which the colonized? Not
> surprisingly, each one is insistent that *they* were the original
> source, and even teach so in their history classes.
I remember once reading that the Japanese were a combination of
proto-mongolians from the mainland and proto-malaysians who arrived
by sea. It might be similar for the Romulans. The Vulcans who arrived
on Romulus might have interbred with a native non telepathic humanoid
species and in doing so diluted whatever gene gave them telepathic
abilities and eliminated the 7 year pon far cycle.
--
Ron Ritzman
http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
Determine email address from the above URL
Mighty Krell
"Ron Ritzman" <rit...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:crsj5q$i0v$1...@reader1.panix.com...
Bah. It's been stated that Roms and Vulcs are nearly identical at the
genetic level. You can't have that and interbreed with some other species.
Has it ever been stated that Roms don't do pon far?
Telepathy can be inherent in the gene pool and yet only available to those
with proper training.
None of your ideas hold water.
shiloh
"Russell Stewart" <us...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:crrrbn$4c3$1...@iruka.swcp.com...
Timo S Saloniemi
>SOME of it may seem plausable for a couple of Reasons:
>1. Vulcan is very dry and arid. While it has some water, how likely is it
>that much life, much less that as evolved as the Vulcans, can evolve in such
>a climate.
Indeed, various writers have speculated on climate change, transplanting
of the Vulcan species from a lusher homeworld, etc. The latter notion at
least has some basis in canon, since Spock makes vague noises of "perhaps
that's where we came from" when Sargon the Bottled Genie in "Return to
Tomorrow" says their culture used to go around colonizing the galaxy a
few hundred thousand years ago.
That "evolved together on Romulus" was probably just a typo, though -
the writer must have meant "evolved together on Vulcan".
>2. Why is it that Vulans have telepathic abilities and Romulans don't?
>Because Vulcans have something in their bodies Romulans don't, something
>evolution would have to create.
Possibly so. Then again, it could be a discipline thing: ENT is now
saying that the ability to mind-meld is a matter of discipline, and
an inborn potential for that exists in every Vulcan, even though the
Vulcans themselves have pretended otherwise. Romulans could lack the
way to unleash abilities hidden in their bodies, since they never
bothered to study Surak's "crazy mumbo-jumbo" that acts as the key.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>While it is generally accepted as fact that the Romulans emigrated from
>Vulcan thousands of years ago it seems more likely - considering the
>cultural characteristics of the two races - that the opposite is true and
>that the Vulcans in fact originated on Romulus and emigrated from that
>planet to the inhospitable sphere that became their home.
Your categorical answer examining all the options is nicely structured.
It's with some remorse, then, that I'll proceed to chop it up with
counterpoints. But those aren't specific to the theories you enumerate,
they are specific to the facts and assumptions you use in the theories -
so I think it's proper to comment on them immediately rather than
critique each whole chapter with a counterchapter. Sorry 'bout that!
>That both the Vulcans and the Romulans have an inaccurate view of their own
>history is not unimaginable. Both races have a long history of keeping
>secrets, even from their own people, and obfuscating (or repressing) the
>truth for various reasons. Suffice to say it is possible that the story has
>been altered over time.
Agreed on this paragraph, certainly. "Rewriting of history" is likely to
be a necessary assumption no matter what explanations ENT or other canon
Trek comes up with.
>But why should we not believe the generally accepted version of events? For
>three reasons:
>
> a.. From what we have seen of Romulus, it is a much more hospitable
>environment than Vulcan and it is much more likely that intelligent life
>would thrive in such a place.
Intelligent life with inner eyelids, adaptation to thin air, and a dislike
of the cold of human "room temperature"? Granted, of course, that those
adaptations may be recent, and the "original" Romulans may lack them...
But I'd still want to give Vulcans as long a history on planet Vulcan as
possible - hundreds of thousands of years at the very least, rather than
just a couple of thousand.
> b.. The Romulans are warlike, aggressive and territorial while Vulcans are
>peaceloving and logical. If there was a conflict between two such races,
>even in the distant past, it seems highly unlikely that the aggressive race
>would leave, conceding the planet to the less aggressive people. Leaving a
>place of conflict rather than staying and fighting to the bitter end is a
>logical and peaceloving solution.
Yet we never heard a Vulcan suggest such an approach to a dilemma. Neither
Spock's family nor the ENT Vulcan stock seems predisposed towards nonviolent
withdrawing in face of threat.
> c.. The iron discipline of logic that Surak taught would be perfectly
>suited to a people that were trapped together in a confined space for a long
>period of time. For instance a population on a pre-warp, multi-generational
>"ark" ship! This would explain the near unanimous embrace of logic among the
>Vulcans. It is easier to imagine a whole people accepting logic and
>rejecting emotions when the horizon is limited. It is more difficult to
>imagine a warlike people on a vast desert planet all accepting one way of
>doing things that runs counter to their very nature.
Then again, desert communities and space arks aren't all that different.
If anything, spaceships would be better able to shield themselves from
the spreading of such cultural influences between ships.
>For these reasons we propose the following scenario: The Romulans and
>Vulcans inhabit the same planet. Perhaps they are the same species or
>perhaps they are slightly different from each other (like earth's bonobos
>and chimpanzees). In any case there is a profound and inescapable animosity
>between the two peoples and eventually either the Vulcans decide to leave
>the planet or, more likely, the Romulans kick them off. In any case a huge
>population of Vulcans load onto a gigantic generational spacecraft and set
>off at slower than light speeds. It takes generations to find a new home and
>during that time the Vulcans adapt to life aboard the ship by embracing the
>control and rationality that now characterizes them.
This part works just fine, yes. Alternately, it could be the warlike
Vulcans kicking out the meek Romulans, who turn bitter in the process.
>A tragic result of this theory also suggests itself: Perhaps not all the
>Vulcans could fit on the ark. Perhaps the Romulans conquered the remaining
>Vulcans and shipped them off to Remus where they evolved into the Remans.
If such "rapid evolution" scenarios could be avoided at all, they should.
There's little currently to suggest that Remans are related to Vulcans or
Romulans in any way.
The first part also suffers from the "rapid evolution" handicap: if there
is enough time for Vulcans to evolve their desert adaptations, then why
doesn't this starflight-capable culture (either Vulcans or the original
Romulans) conquer the whole galaxy in the meantime? Even at sublight, it
should only take a few hundred thousand years, provided there was no
major opposition.
>Why Are The Romulans and Vulcans Named After Roman Myths?
Ahh, the old "Why do they all speak English (with funny accents)?"
question...
>Vulcan, Romulus, Centurions, a Senate, these are all words and concepts that
>existed on Earth millennia before humans joined the interstellar community,
>so how could they possibly exist? One possible solution comes from an
>encounter the crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise, under the command of Captain
>James T. Kirk, had on Stardate 3468.1.
>
>The Federation ship met with a being that called itself Apollo, and
>described visiting Earth centuries earlier along with other beings like him.
>These powerful space faring beings were looked upon and worshipped as "gods"
>by the culturally primitive humans in the Mediterranean region of the
>planet.
>
>The misguided assumption that these terms originated on Earth is perhaps the
>root of the mystery. If one assumes that these beings introduced much of
>what would later be called Classical mythology to humanity, and if that
>culture originated elsewhere in the galaxy, then it makes sense to connect
>the dots leading to a theory that both Vulcans and Romulans also had contact
>with these beings, contact which had broad-reaching implications.
This certainly is possible, even likely. Why would humans be special
in this respect?
>If these powerful beings had also visited Vulcan and Romulus centuries
>before coming to primitive Earth, it would explain a great many things, such
>as why all three planets have so many words in common ("Vulcan," "Romulus,"
>"Remus," etc.).
Of course, this could also be because everything these aliens say is
translated to English by the technology of our heroes. For example,
Spock is a "man", and T'Pol is a "woman". No wonder that their home
planet would be "Vulcan" and their major religion "logic", then...
No doubt there would exist more literal translations of the terms,
but the UT is supposed to create fluent English like "Captain, logic
dictates my return to Vulcan to marry my betrothed", not needlessly
nitpicking sentences like "The-one-who-leads-by-tacit-approval-of-
others-including-his-betters, reality-truth-acceptance dictates my
return to Hotdirthome to second-degree-bond with the-one-appointed-by-
my-clan-and-hers".
ENT "Minefield" at least suggests that the name "Romulan" in human
parlance dates back to the 2150s, and is endorsed by the Vulcans
(or T'Pol at least) as the correct pronunciation and spelling. The
episode may even be taken to confirm that the Romulans themselves
use a word sounding like that, but we may be reading too much into
the evidence there. Just as well, Hoshi's translation software could
be blamed for this "initial misconception" that later becomes the
standard spelling.
>Then there's the question concerning the split between the Romulans and the
>Vulcans, and as to how these two cultures, although sharing a planet of
>origin, somehow managed to end up light years apart.
>
>Despite the cosmetic similarities between Vulcans and Romulans (pointed
>ears, jet-black hair until old age), there are definite differences between
>the two peoples. Vulcans not only possess greater physical strength but also
>mental abilities far beyond the Romulans, who are much closer to humans in
>terms of strength and psychic power.
Suggested by what? Vulcans and Romulans face evenly in hand-to-hand
against the same type of opponent, more or less. Even if Spock sometimes
brags about his superiority, it is either imagined or then restrained,
since it's typically Kirk who knocks down more baddies. And as for psychic
powers, Romulans could be melding like rabbits (if you pardon the
expression) when we aren't looking. It's not as if they'd have such
intimate contact with our heroes (who always hog the camera) as Vulcans
have.
>Since both Vulcans and Romulans originated on the same world, one of these
>two planets was settled by one of these races.
Assuming, of course, that they did share a place of origin. Lesser
makeup differences have signified separate places of origin in Star
Trek.
>Given that the planet Vulcan is quite inhospitable in comparison to
>Romulus, one can speculate that these races originated on Romulus, and
>something happened which relocated the Vulcans to their current planet.
As discussed above, it could be the cold and humid (and for some reason
purple-soiled? See "Nemesis" opening zoom-in!) Romulus which is inhospitable
to Vulcanoids. Also, wouldn't a hellhole of a home be a great incentive for
an interstellar exodus? Finally, note that the evolution of humanoids in Trek
does not require Earthlike conditions and a plausible chain of preceding
phenotypes and adaptations, since it appears to be preprogrammed into our
genetic material: it *will* happen even when it makes no biological-
adaptational sense. The "The Chase" seeders may not have predicted that
Vulcan would dry up in the next four billion years... But their handiwork
apparently covered that possibility, too.
(Interestingly enough, when the seeder hologram somehow sees the peoples
gathered around her, she calls the humans, the Klingons AND the Romulans
her species' handiwork. Of course, she might not be able to tell that
the Romulans aren't from planet Vulcan where the original seeding took
place. Or then she could just be making assumptions, such as "all humanoids
must be results of our seeding, because natural selection couldn't produce
such a perversely bizarre form".)
>The "Roman Gods," uninterested in such conflicts and more absorbed in how
>primitive races could serve and worship them, could have separated the
>Vulcans from the Romulans. Perhaps as punishment for the aggressive Vulcans'
>treatment of the Romulans, the "Roman Gods" relocated the Vulcans to a
>harsh, arid world and allowed the Romulans to remain. Maintaining a dim
>memory of their own suppression by the Vulcans, Romulans would have evolved
>into a militaristic society where guile and deceit are used to overcome
>stronger enemies, and eventually a Romulan Star Empire.
Again, quite possible as such. The timeline would suggest divine intervention
in the past 6,000 years or so in that case (or did the Gods operate on
humans at a different timepoint altogether?) - again too short for plausible
evolutionary adaptations. But the Gods could have been responsible for
those, too.
>Did The Q Continuum Separate the Vulcans and The Romulans?
>The answer finally came to the Federation as a result of an incident on the
>starship, U.S.S Voyager. It turns out that is was in fact the Q Continuum
>that separated the Romulans and Vulcans from one another, over two thousand
>years ago, when a member of the Q community indirectly started a war, which
>almost destroyed the entire planet of Vulcan.
To be sure, all that is said is that the Q known as Quinn (inadvertently)
incited a hundred-year war between those two species. From the wording, one
might infer that the species were separated already, rather than becoming
split due to the war. It takes a bit of twisting to make it fit... Of
course, it is a possible fit nevertheless.
>During that time, the Vulcans were a warlike people - smart, strong,
>aggressive..and emotional. Then, a disgruntled Q introduced the concept of
>logic and control over emotion to Surak as a way to end the continuous
>fighting on Vulcan. After the Q left, some Vulcans hailed Surak as a
>visionary leader, others as a madman who was bent on power and subjugation
>of the Vulcan people. Vulcans took up arms against one another unlike that
>world had ever seen. Terrible destruction resulted and countless lives were
>lost.
>
>The Q Continuum realized the incredible impact that the destruction of
>Vulcan would have on the shape of the evolving universe and was thereby
>moved to separate the two groups, in hopes that they would come together at
>a later point. The Vulcans who rejected the teachings of Surak were moved to
>another planet in the blink of an eye, left to fend for themselves. While
>thousands died as a result of the displacement, they quickly dominated the
>planet. When they finally developed space flight, they immediately conquered
>the nearby planet, Remus, and subjugated the Remans as slave laborers.
Possible, certainly, and also a sequence that would lead even the supposedly
"white hat", honest and likeable Vulcans to rewrite their embarrassing
history.
And I must also support the idea that native Remans were subjugated by
spatially displaced Romulans, as this is the easiest way to explain the
facts. It also works in the classic exodus theory framework, though:
naturally, the starlost Romulans would choose a star system where there
was cheap slave labor available next to a habitable planet, yet
safely separated from the said planet.
>While the hopes of the Q for the Vulcans to be reunited with their displaced
>Romulans has yet to occur, a number of peace accords between the Federation
>and the Romulan Empire have started to make this a reality.
Of course, this begs the question of why Q just wouldn't *make* it happen.
Certainly he's empowered to do so. Indeed, one suspects that the 100-yr
war that Quinn incited was promptly erased from history by the more
responsible Q Continuum members, and never adorned the history books of
our heroes.
>Did the Romulans Leave Because the Vulcans Refused to Fight Anymore?
>A couple of millennia ago a benevolent, unknown alien race offered the
>Romulans a new future in a far off star system. The Romulans were
>enthusiastic and what followed was a mass exodus to another world to begin
>life anew. The very idea of living unencumbered by any other cultures - on a
>far away planet free to rule and conquer as they pleased - was too enticing
>for them. However, following their mass exodus, the Romulans turned on the
>very aliens who transported them to this new solar system - a bi-planetary
>configuration called Romulus and Remus - and they were never heard from
>again. Popular theories suggest that the Romulans stole much of their
>technology, yet almost no information of this race exists today.
OTOH, Surak has now been placed on a period of time when Vulcans operated
weapons capable of creating nuke-type flashes and mushroom clouds. Control
of these energies might allow starflight within a few centuries of Surak's
days even without outside alien assistance.
Of course, if Romulans are given to infighting, they may have slain their
own ship-technologists and been stranded in their little star system
as a result. Or then they never were stranded, and in fact were quite
a player in the interstellar scene between the exodus and the human
starflight era - but were then scaled down by their Earth misadventure.
>Prior to their arrival at Romulus, the Romulans were informed that the Reman
>world contained life; the neo-conquerors were on Romulus for a few hundred
>years before they began to subjugate their Reman neighbors, just as they had
>tried to with the Vulcans back on their original homeworld. This early in
>their new setting, Romulan priorities were to establish their own new world
>first, erect their cities and such, before they could branch out into the
>galaxy and establish what would later be called The Romulan Star Empire. The
>rest is history.
There's the issue of how Remus could have supported humanoid life - so
perhaps the Reman species was imported from outside during the Romulan
period of empire-building? Then again, the "The Chase" seeders might have
had the knack of populating a tidally locked planet, too. They seem like
a competent bunch.
>.And Where Did Those Bumpy Foreheads Come From Anyway?
>
>There has been much speculation about why Klingons of the mid-23rd century
>look so radically different from those of earlier and later periods, but far
>less discussion has been devoted to the more subtle disparity of the Romulan
>appearance between the Captain Kirk era and the Captain Picard era. But the
>question is just as significant: When did Romulans develop those protrusions
>in their foreheads, and how?
To be sure, Romulan foreheads may not be different from Vulcan ones after
all. Perhaps the supposed bone ridges are actually just bloated veins,
the bulging of which is considered rude on Vulcan but "manly" on Romulus?
It would then be trivially easy for a Romulan to masquerade as a Vulcan
(just take lots of cold showers), or vice versa (Spock on Romulus could
claim old age inability to bulge like youngsters do).
It's also difficult to prove that Romulans wouldn't have inner eyelids or
telepathic abilities or other fancy Vulcan features that don't show to
the outside...
The "facial erection" theory nothwithstanding, any attempts at creating a
consistent timeline would now also have to explain how ridge-headed Romulans
can masquerade as Vulcans in the ENT era - so some sort of intermixing
would have to precede that timepoint.
>The first visual contact with Romulans by the Federation in 2266 revealed
>them to look identical to Vulcans, and it was learned they were actually
>offshoots of the Vulcan race. Yet by the time the Enterprise-D encountered
>the Romulans almost a hundred years later, there were differences.
And, indeed, we could argue that the ridges were news to our heroes as well,
since they do look amazed/suspicious during that encounter. Of course, they
have multiple reasons to do so...
However, ENT precedent seems to suggest the ridges existed on Romulans
a few centuries prior, and apparently were known to Vulcans as well.
>And how do we know the smooth-headed Romulans aren't still around in the
>24th century? Take this into account: In 2368, we saw Spock dressed in
>Romulan clothes walking openly through the capital city on Romulus ... and
>no one batted an eye. Apparently Vulcan-like Romulans are still a common
>sight a hundred years later.
Romulans, or trusted Vulcan defectors? Perhaps Mark Lenard's officers
in "Balance of Terror" were all "expendable" Vulcan turncoats (save for
his helmeted crew whose ridges remained hidden), and for that reason
preferable for such a suicide mission?
>We know there are several different races of the species called human, and
>if an alien didn't know better he might think they all came from different
>worlds. We know at least part of the population of Vulcan is dark-skinned,
>as evidenced by Tuvok and his family. Perhaps there is more than one race of
>Romulan as well, and one of those races is distinguished by a protruding
>forehead.
Sounds plausible enough. Of course, no matter which way the supposed
migration took place, it would then make sense for some Vulcans to have such
a phenotype as well... Some Vulcan makeup is suggestive of this, if only
by the virtue of favoring long forehead hair and severe eyebrows that
would at least mask the ridges, and in some lighting conditions even
suggest their presence.
>So it is entirely possible, and in fact probable, that the Romulan Star
>Empire encompasses several "nations" whose histories are as varied and
>complex as those on Earth. We've also been reminded several times that
>political machinations and power shifts are the norm in this multi-world
>government. So it's not a stretch to conjecture that the smooth-headed race
>of Romulans happened to be those that held more prominent positions of power
>in the 23rd century (or at least, they were the ones who occupied the ships
>roaming the Neutral Zone near Federation space), and the race with
>protruding foreheads gained greater political status by the 24th century.
>But no doubt diversity is a fact of life among Romulans - even if they're
>not always comfortable with it - as with any significant population.
Agreed again. The curious Klingon connection first suggested in TNG "The
Enemy" might also feature into this - some crossbreeding may have taken
place with Klingons, and involved the ridged Romulans predominantly.
In the 24th century political environment of close interaction between
Romulans and some Klingon factions, the ridged Romulans would then be close
to the throne while the smoothheads might stand in opposition.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>
>
><snipped 17ks worth of stuff>
>
>Nope.
>
>- We call them Vulcans, Romulans, etc due to translation. The Vulcans
>themselves don't call themselves 'Vulcans'.
...But the Romulans in "Minefield" do use a self-name that Hoshi Sato
hears as "Romulans" (at least after being corrected by T'Pol). Is
that also an artifact of the translation algorithms? They do seem to
take liberties with poetic interpretations of proper names sometimes.
>- Romulans took of from Vulcan, not the other way around. They were a
>smaller group of people, the larger group would likely KILL You to
>maintain order.
Do we have a reason to think that Romulans would be a smaller group than
Vulcans, though?
>- The folks who are super logical are not the ones in power during the
>rift between the Vulcans and the pre-Romulans.
...Or then they are. We still don't know when exactly the rift took place,
although we now have a fairly good idea of when (and in which sort of
a political environment) Surak lived. If we take current hints literally,
then Romulans left slightly before Surak's time, but these "2,000 years
ago" remarks aren't accurate enough for such hair-splitting.
>It doesn't need any changing around.
But it *can* be changed without contradictions if this is found
dramatically pleasing.
Timo Saloniemi
Kimon
> The romulan forehead has to be a sign of cross breeding.
Between whom, exactly?
What we know for sure about Protruding Craninal Bones (PCB) is;
1. Most Romulans have PCB, and some as early as 2154.
2. Many Romulans do not have PCB (eg. T'Pel from TNG, possibily V'Laas
from ENT and both Romulan crews in "BOT" and "TEI". Spock appeared to
fit into Romulan life without the need for PCB.
3. Some Vulcans may have PCB (T'Paal from TNG), but the majority don't.
4. The Mintakans, a proto-vulcan race had PCB
On a related question, according to Roddenberry's vision of TOS, if the
Klingons = Soviets, who were the Romulans meant to depict? Japanese?
Chinese? Someone else?
==
Kimon
Kimon
>
>>- Romulans took of from Vulcan, not the other way around. They were a
>>smaller group of people, the larger group would likely KILL You to
>>maintain order.
>
>
> Do we have a reason to think that Romulans would be a smaller group than
> Vulcans, though?
It may be inferred from the fact the Mintakans are described as a
"proto-Vulcan" race, as opposed to a "proto-Romulan" race.
There was also some suggestive dialogue in "TEI" betwixt Spock and that
rather pretty Rommie Commander, where she's propounding the virtues of
defection to Spock.
==
Kimon
T
<snip>
The Vulcans who arrived
> on Romulus might have interbred with a native non telepathic humanoid
> species and in doing so diluted whatever gene gave them telepathic
> abilities and eliminated the 7 year pon far cycle.
And developed the brow / forehead ridges. (?)
TBerk
T
> In article <udGDd.125743$3N.8...@fe09.lga> "shiloh" <time...@optonline.net> writes:
>
>>While it is generally accepted as fact that the Romulans emigrated from
>>Vulcan thousands of years ago it seems more likely - considering the
>>cultural characteristics of the two races - that the opposite is true and
>>that the Vulcans in fact originated on Romulus and emigrated from that
>>planet to the inhospitable sphere that became their home.
>
>
> Your categorical answer examining all the options is nicely structured.
> It's with some remorse, then, that I'll proceed to chop it up with
> counterpoints. But those aren't specific to the theories you enumerate,
> they are specific to the facts and assumptions you use in the theories -
> so I think it's proper to comment on them immediately rather than
> critique each whole chapter with a counterchapter. Sorry 'bout that!
>
Go Timo, GO! <lol!>
<snip>
Damn, I thought to reply to some of that but it got HEAVY and my arms
got tired.
TBerk