Jordan : RJ Dublin talk
eaob...@vax1.tcd.ie
Robert Jordan arrived at 6:00 this evening in Trinity
College for his talk.. this being Ireland, the talk didn't start
for a further ten minutes, but in the meantime he signed books for
those of us who actually turned up on time. The turn out was pretty
disappointing considering tFoH is no. 2 on the best-seller lists
here: only about thirty people were there including SF society mafia.
He didn't have any prepared speech but took questions from
the floor. He still isn't sure how long WoT will go on for, saying
probably seven books but adding that when tEotW first came out he
saw the series as four books.. he does however know what the ending
will be and how all the major storylines will resolve. He expressed
vague dissatisfaction with the covers but didn't seem too upset
about them.
He talked for a while about 'reverse engineering' various
mythos, removing the culture-specific elements and combining the stories,
giving the example of the wolfbrother idea, which was derived partly
from the Native American Coyote trickster/saviour figure, of whom
both Mat and Perrin reflect aspects.
He does not intend to speed up as the end of the series
approaches: the books are planned to come out at the same rate
until the end..
He raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may
manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland
expect.. which leads one to wonder about Rand's increasing
withdrawal and possible megalomania..
I think he is aware of the net discussion: he expressed
surprise at the amount of analysis and comparison with Tolkien,
Dune etc. [ I felt tempted to mention A. A. Milne ] and somebody
in the audience compared WoT to _Atlas Shrugged_, which really
seemed to surprise him. His attitude is that once he has written
one book [ and publicised it ] it is time to move on to the next..
The only deliberate connection between WoT and any other
modern fantasy was giving the first 100-odd pages of tEotW a
Lord of the Rings-esque flavour, to start people off in familiar
territory.
Specific questions: Lews Therin Telamon's suicide was
emphatically _not_ balefire, but an overload of the Power. And
when Verin was mentioned, he just said he hoped he kept surprising
people.
There was also some discussion of Conan and of his younger
days as a voracious reader, but this lab is about to close so I
will post on those tomorrow if there is any interest.
- Emmet
David Wren-Hardin
>
> Specific questions: Lews Therin Telamon's suicide was
> emphatically _not_ balefire, but an overload of the Power. And
> when Verin was mentioned, he just said he hoped he kept surprising
> people.
Ha ! I knew it ! :-)
>
> There was also some discussion of Conan and of his younger
> days as a voracious reader, but this lab is about to close so I
> will post on those tomorrow if there is any interest.
Yes !!!! OH GOD YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did he say if he was coming to Chicago or some other place nearby like,
say, Alaska ? (I'll drive anywhere, but the key word is _drive_.
I don't think I could get a long enough jump to get to Ireland in my
truck :( )
>
> - Emmet
>
>
>
--
*****************************************************************************
David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this.
John Novak
>>
>> Specific questions: Lews Therin Telamon's suicide was
>> emphatically _not_ balefire, but an overload of the Power. And
>> when Verin was mentioned, he just said he hoped he kept surprising
>> people.
>Ha ! I knew it ! :-)
Nyah.
What does he know?
He just wrote the damned thing.
>Yes !!!! OH GOD YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Did he say if he was coming to Chicago or some other place nearby like,
>say, Alaska ? (I'll drive anywhere, but the key word is _drive_.
>I don't think I could get a long enough jump to get to Ireland in my
>truck :( )
Indeed. The next time he shows up somewhere, tell him to hie himself
out to the midwest. Chicago is good enough. I wouldn't ask
_anyone_ to willingly go to Peoria.
I'd love to see the expression on his face when I ask, "Wait, are
you _sure_ Lews Therin didn't balefire himself?"
--
John S. Novak, III
dark...@camelot.bradley.edu
dark...@cegt201.bradley.edu
hill...@msc.cornell.edu
>
> Robert Jordan arrived at 6:00 this evening in Trinity
> College for his talk.
Now how exactly do you guys rate. We get Hillary Clinton blabberin about
health care (for which I couldn't even get a ticket) and you get Robert
Jordan. Where's the justice in this world?
>
> He raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may
> manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland
> expect.. which leads one to wonder about Rand's increasing
> withdrawal and possible megalomania..
Did he use a term to refer to the Wheel of Time world? Or
did he actually say Randland :).
>And
> when Verin was mentioned, he just said he hoped he kept surprising
> people.
Ha!
SEH
eaob...@vax1.tcd.ie
>
I think he is aware of the net discussion: he expressed
> surprise at the amount of analysis and comparison with Tolkien,
> Dune etc. [ I felt tempted to mention A. A. Milne ] and somebody
> in the audience compared WoT to _Atlas Shrugged_, which really
> seemed to surprise him. His attitude is that once he has written
> one book [ and publicised it ] it is time to move on to the next..
But then, as Isaac Asimov said:
" Just because you wrote it doesn't mean you know what it's all about."
[that might not be the exact wording, I think..]
> There was also some discussion of Conan and of his younger
> days as a voracious reader, but this lab is about to close so I
> will post on those tomorrow if there is any interest.
As if there wouldn't be.. :-)
His first Conan novel he wrote because there was money offered. Having
discovered that it was fun to write Conan, he wrote five more including the
novelisation of the second movie, and then spent a year convincing people
that he was not going to write any more Conan.. he was quite adamant on
this point.
His first _novel_ was accepted and then rejected, sold and then rights
reverted to him.. he says he will never publish it as it is not very good,
but keeps it as it seems to be lucky for him..
He regards being taught to read at an early age and reading anything
and everything he could get his hands on as being very important to his
decision to write, and to what he writes and how he writes it.. he writes
fantasy because it allows more straightforward discussion of good and evil
than fiction set in the modern world.
[ I got the impression that learning to read at age three is considered
precocious in the USA.. just another example of how far you colonials have
fallen.. :-) ]
He also spoke for quite some time on the splitting of the One Power
into male and female halves, and on the disharmony produced when they
don't work together.. this came across as one of the core elements in
the origin of WoT. [ re: yin/yang - leaving out the little dots in the
symbol is an intentional representation of the lack of harmony between
male/female Power in RandLand ]
That was about it.. a lot covered for half an hour. There was a strong
impression that more of the books are made up as he goes along than a reading
of all the foreshadowing etc. might lead you to expect..
A thought that occurred to me afterwards.. if at book one he expected
to finish the series in three more books, and at book five he expects to
take two more books, then logically the series should actually end up as
thirteen books..
- Emmet
"Following up to your own posts is a sign of hopeless net addiction"
- Leo B, over on alt.fan.pratchett
eaob...@vax1.tcd.ie
> From article <1993Nov22...@vax1.tcd.ie>, by eaob...@vax1.tcd.ie:
>>
>> Robert Jordan arrived at 6:00 this evening in Trinity
>> College for his talk.
>
> Now how exactly do you guys rate. We get Hillary Clinton blabberin about
> health care (for which I couldn't even get a ticket) and you get Robert
> Jordan. Where's the justice in this world?
>
after all..
So, does Hillary walk in the Light or is she really Mesaana ?
>>
>> He raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may
>> manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland
>> expect.. which leads one to wonder about Rand's increasing
>> withdrawal and possible megalomania..
>
> Did he use a term to refer to the Wheel of Time world? Or
> did he actually say Randland :).
>
He referred to 'the people around Rand'. First of the 'Light burn
me, why didn't I ask him _that_ ?' posts..
>>And
>> when Verin was mentioned, he just said he hoped he kept surprising
>> people.
> Ha!
Let's see, in order to surprise us all, Verin has to be:
a) Black
b) not Black..
Schrodinger's Sedai ? [ These balefire posts are getting to me..]
- Emmet
>
> SEH
Don Harlow
>In article <1993Nov23.1...@msc.cornell.edu>, hill...@msc.cornell.edu writes:
>> From article <1993Nov22...@vax1.tcd.ie>, by eaob...@vax1.tcd.ie:
>
>>> when Verin was mentioned, he just said he hoped he kept surprising
>>> people.
>
>> Ha!
>
> Let's see, in order to surprise us all, Verin has to be:
> a) Black
> b) not Black..
>
> Schrodinger's Sedai ? [ These balefire posts are getting to me..]
>
not everybody. So he doesn't have to make Verin both black and non-black,
just black _or_ non-black; either way, he'll surprise half the people on
the net. :-)
--
Don Harlow do...@netcom.com
Esperanto League (Info only) (800)828-5944 or el...@netcom.com
Turnig^as la Rado de la Tempo,
kaj postlasas multajn vojkadavretojn. (Lau^ Robert Jordan)
Hank Lee
EAOB...@VAX1.TCD.IE wanted to convince ALL about Jordan : RJ Dublin talk.
EE> He does not intend to speed up as the end of the series
EE> approaches: the books are planned to come out at the same rate
EE> until the end..
It wouldn't surprise me. At the rate he's going, it's probably going to be 15
books spanned over about 18 years before the TWoT ends! That, of course, is
preferrable; however, I wish he'd consider publishing his next book sooner
than later.
EE> He raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may
EE> manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland
EE> expect.. which leads one to wonder about Rand's increasing
EE> withdrawal and possible megalomania..
So by Jordan's...standard, is Rand mad now? Is he a bit mad now?
EE> I think he is aware of the net discussion: he expressed
Aware of this particular net? Or another over there in Europe?
EE> Specific questions: Lews Therin Telamon's suicide was
EE> emphatically _not_ balefire, but an overload of the Power. And
Aha! I knew it!
EE> when Verin was mentioned, he just said he hoped he kept surprising
EE> people.
Is she BA?
Hank CH Lee Rime ->1379 Fido 1:125/27
Internet: hank...@toadhall.com
* RM 1.2 00299 * File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
John Novak
>It wouldn't surprise me. At the rate he's going, it's probably going to be 15
>books spanned over about 18 years before the TWoT ends! That, of course, is
>preferrable; however, I wish he'd consider publishing his next book sooner
>than later.
As far as I'm concerned, the series should last approximately as
long as it lasts, and it should take an amount of time between
each installment equal to the amount of time needed to do it
_right_.
In other words, I don't want to see it padded, or chopped.
And I don't want to see it hurried, or delayed.
eaob...@vax1.tcd.ie
>
> EE> He raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may
> EE> manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland
> EE> expect.. which leads one to wonder about Rand's increasing
> EE> withdrawal and possible megalomania..
>
> So by Jordan's...standard, is Rand mad now? Is he a bit mad now?
That was the impression I got..
>
> EE> I think he is aware of the net discussion: he expressed
>
> Aware of this particular net? Or another over there in Europe?
While expressing general bemusement at the amount people read into
WoT, he mentioned comparison of WoT and Dune.. I don't know if this has
come up elsewhere, but it's definitely in the FAQ. Maybe Patrick N-H keeps
him informed..
- Emmet
'It finally happened, oh dear' - Freddie Mercury
Ruchira Datta
>In article <73.2899.31...@toadhall.com>,
hank...@toadhall.com (Hank Lee) writes:
>> So by Jordan's...standard, is Rand mad now? Is he a bit mad now?
>
> That was the impression I got..
This is interesting. When Rand killed the merchants in tDR, I thought he
had gone mad. By the end of the book, I still wasn't sure whether he
was mad or not. In fact, that's the main reason I decided to read tSR at
that time (instead of waiting for the paperback) - that was the one thing
I just had to know. I was somewhat, but not completely reassured.
Interestingly enough, the portion that I have read of tFoH has been the
most reassuring that Rand isn't off the edge yet. But now you tell me
he is!
His problem seems to be less the taint on saidin and more the fact that
he is alone, in a very real sense, and nothing can be done about this.
That's why his madness is not what his friends expect...
Ruchira Datta
da...@math.berkeley.edu
Hank Lee
JN> >It wouldn't surprise me. At the rate he's going, it's probably going to b
JN> >books spanned over about 18 years before the TWoT ends! That, of course,
JN> In other words, I don't want to see it padded, or chopped.
JN> And I don't want to see it hurried, or delayed.
I feel the same way, but I'm just a little impatient to see the final ending
(where Jordan ties everything up).
Hank CH Lee Rime ->1379 Fido 1:125/27
Internet: hank...@toadhall.com
* RM 1.2 00299 * I have to stop now, my fingers are getting hoarse!
Hank Lee
RD> This is interesting. When Rand killed the merchants in tDR, I thought he
RD> had gone mad. By the end of the book, I still wasn't sure whether he
That might be because he was extreme paranoid at the time, with Ba' (Ish)
hunting him both in the waking and in his Dreams. He was just acting out his
paranoia. Of course, I wouldn't excuse him for the killings on the bases of
paranoia. :)
RD> His problem seems to be less the taint on saidin and more the fact that
RD> he is alone, in a very real sense, and nothing can be done about this.
RD> That's why his madness is not what his friends expect...
Could that be the reason why he is pulling (TFoH spoiler) male who can channel
to him right now? Sure he'll need help in the Last Battle, but he needs those
who are the "same" as him, right now? Or does he have other plans? Does he,
for instance, wish to revive the male Aes Sedai after the Last Battle, even
though he might nor might not live to see it?
RD> Ruchira Datta
RD> da...@math.berkeley.edu
Hank CH Lee Rime ->1379 Fido 1:125/27
Internet: hank...@toadhall.com
* RM 1.2 00299 * Building contractors do it with major erections.
Don Harlow
>Hear ye! Hear ye! RUCHIRA DATTA brings good news to ALL.
>
>RD> This is interesting. When Rand killed the merchants in tDR, I thought he
>RD> had gone mad. By the end of the book, I still wasn't sure whether he
>
>That might be because he was extreme paranoid at the time, with Ba' (Ish)
>hunting him both in the waking and in his Dreams. He was just acting out his
>paranoia. Of course, I wouldn't excuse him for the killings on the bases of
>paranoia. :)
>
rightly) that they were a fistful of Darkfriends sent to kill him. More
likely, he sensed the single Grey Man in their midst (the extra body he
found after his massacre) and, unable to identify the source of the wrongness,
attributed it to a relatively innocent company of people. (IMHO, of course.)
Joseph Shaw
a long handle on your axe... No control-L since they're a ways down,
but remeber to insert one if necessary on followups.
From Emmet's wonderful "RJ Dublin talk" post and followups:
> He talked for a while about 'reverse engineering' various
> mythos, removing the culture-specific elements and combining the stories,
>
> He raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may
> manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland
> expect.. which leads one to wonder about Rand's increasing
> withdrawal and possible megalomania..
>
>>> So by Jordan's...standard, is Rand mad now? Is he a bit mad now?
> That was the impression I got..
OK - SO far, we know that Rand is already starting to go mad, but it's
not going to be seen by blathing insanity. Fine so far. Some have
pointed to Rand's 'murders' in TDR on the road to Tear as one example.
My take on this is that Rand was under extreme stress at the time, as
evidenced by his paranoid reactions to Perrin/Eg. in t'a'r, and that
the people with the Gray Man were also Darkfriends, or at least the
woman. Others have pointed to Rand's arrogance, but I think that is
just Rand doing what he has to do (being hard). [Aviendha reference
NOT intended.] It's also been mentioned that Rand becomes angry much
quicker than he used to; I'm not sure yet howe to classify that.
I'm leaving out one obvious symptom; bear with me, I'm getting to it.
> I think he is aware of the net discussion: he expressed
> surprise at the amount of analysis and comparison with Tolkien,
> Dune etc. [ I felt tempted to mention A. A. Milne ] and somebody
>
> While expressing general bemusement at the amount people read into
> WoT, he mentioned comparison of WoT and Dune.. I don't know if this has
> come up elsewhere, but it's definitely in the FAQ. Maybe Patrick N-H keeps
> him informed..
I'm about to go way out on a limb of the tree of speculation here.
Emmet, can you support or bash the following based on your impressions
since you were the one there and I'm just basing this on your words?
We all know about Jordan's sense of humor and tendancy for irony; I
suspect the above quotes may be another example of this. Note especially
that Emmet makes reference twice to how RJ is surprised at the amount
of comparision to Dune.
Now, Jordan's use of the cellular memory concepts from Dune (and other
books...) has also been noted before, in the context of Mat's previous
lives, or Other Memories to borrow the Dune term, and in regard to the
wolves memories.
Which leads me back to Rand's madness, and how it's showing itself.
Three words: Lews Therin Kinslayer.
In Dune, a constant worry for those people who had access to their
Other Memories was becoming trapped in them, or for one of the Other
Memories to take over, ala Alia's possession by the Baron Harkonnen.
I think what we're seeing with LTT's memories popping up more often
is a similar situation. Note that Rand never had these strange memories
popping up in the early books, the first one I remember is his outburst
at Lanfear in the Stone of Tear. And as TFoH progresses, they become
more and more prevalent; this occurs at the same time that Rand really
starts using the OP on a frequent basis now that he has 'Chosen' a tutor.
If this is true, does that mean the madness takes this form in all
male channelers? (ie, including all the ones from the Breaking, and
since) No, or you'd expect that to have been recognized way back when
the AS were trying to find a way to cure the madness and/or cleanse
the taint during the Breaking. I think it only occurs in those who
are tied to the Wheel and are spun out again and again. Thus, Rand
needs to be able to reach some sort of 'arrangement' with his LTT
memories to keep from going mad, ala Leto II's arrangement with Harad,
if possible.
To continue with the comparision to Dune, Mat would be akin to Duncan
Idaho: lived many lives, finally gets access to the memories of them
all. Any comparision is necessarily rough, a tribute to Jordan's
talant. Of course, I'm willing to admit this whole post may just be
worthless tripe...
(This basic idea may have been mentioned back during the early TFOH
discussions; I don't remember. But it hasn't been mentioned in the
recent madness threads.)
So what do y'all think?
- Joe
"I feel like the Creator. I'm making mountains out of molehills!"
--
Joseph Shaw | joe...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu | This _is_ my hobby!
GTA/Grad. Student +--------------------------+-------------------------
Computer Science | "Sene sovya caba'donde ain dovienya"
Virginia Tech | ("Luck is a horse to ride like any other.")
Joe Morris
> You see, our university is 401 years old, which does count for something
> after all..
> So, does Hillary walk in the Light or is she really Mesaana ?
Actually, she's a stand-in for Nynaeve: she's an Aes Sedai wannabe who
dreams of using the OP to administer this wonderful plan for healing
everybody. She couldn't get into the White Tower, so she took over
the White House instead.
Discussion of the battle training of her Warder is left as an exercise
for the net, probably in alt.politics.clinton (alias of alt.flames).
Joe Morris / MITRE
John Novak
[munch]
>So what do y'all think?
I won't comment on what you wrote directly, mainly because I
could never get more than ten pages in to the Dune series...
I'll just state my own conclusions about Rand's impending
madness. I think its more paranoia than anything else. Rand is
going paranoid.
Of course, the fact that he has a _reason_ to be paranoid makes
it harder to detect, but look at the way he treats even his
friends-- he generally doesn't tell them anything more than
necessary.
Don Harlow
>
>I'll just state my own conclusions about Rand's impending
>madness. I think its more paranoia than anything else. Rand is
>going paranoid.
>
>Of course, the fact that he has a _reason_ to be paranoid makes
>it harder to detect, but look at the way he treats even his
>friends-- he generally doesn't tell them anything more than
>necessary.
>
with Moiraine, and going down the list) tells _anybody_ more than
necessary, and often not even that. Some of them will, however, spend
a paragraph or so telling people why they won't tell them anything ...
>John S. Novak, III
John Novak
>John, that's not paranoia -- that's par for the series. _Nobody_ (starting
>with Moiraine, and going down the list) tells _anybody_ more than
>necessary, and often not even that. Some of them will, however, spend
>a paragraph or so telling people why they won't tell them anything ...
This is true, but its also something that seems distinctly out of
character for the Rand we met in the Two Rivers. It seems out of
character for the Rand we knew at the end of the Great Hunt,
even. Thinking back, I sense a subtle, but tangible, personality
shift which seemed to occur while Rand was 'off stage' in the
Dragon Reborn.
Just my opinion, of course.
Joseph Shaw
[Rand's paranoia: madness or method?]
> This is true, but its also something that seems distinctly out of
> character for the Rand we met in the Two Rivers. It seems out of
> character for the Rand we knew at the end of the Great Hunt,
> even. Thinking back, I sense a subtle, but tangible, personality
> shift which seemed to occur while Rand was 'off stage' in the
> Dragon Reborn.
OK, I've figured out how to reconcile both Rand's paranoia and his
perceived arrogance with my LTT memory disease theory - both are
just symptoms of it. LTT was arrogant, according to repeated comments
from Lanfear; enough said. As for the paranoia, I don't think it's
actually paranoia; as Don Harlow mentioned, it's just like Moiraine
and many others. John's primary example was his not telling friends
more than they needed to know. That's not paranoia, that's the actions
of an expert player of Da'es Daemar, of which LTT was one off the best.
How do you think Rand learned the Game of Houses from Moiraine so
quickly? Or did so well playing it in Tear? Granted he had Elayne,
Thom and probably Moiraine all helping or advising him in Tear, but
Thom and Moiraine were working towards different purposes; and he came
up with the Callandor trick to keep the Tairens in line all by himself.
At least, that's my impression of what's happening.
- Joe
Don Harlow
undergone a personality shift in the sense described. But I'm not sure
that it's due to his going mad through use of _saidin_. Egwene, who came
out of the same society that Rand did and had much the same sort of
character, is undergoing the same sort of shift in behavior (as some
have remarked before). So, for that matter, is Nynaeve -- though she
may always have behaved rather strangely for a Two Rivers gel. And if
Mat and Perrin aren't making a big thing of not telling anybody
anything, it may just be because they don't have a lot to tell.