JORDAN: A fledgling Jordanite's first posting
Karhu Jouni
As it is, maybe all these things have been discussed to death earlier
when I did not read Jordan posts because of spoilers... but, the Wheel
of Time turns, Subjects come and go... ;)
Anyway, first: My definition of Jordan's style: A cross between Eddings
and Donaldson.
Second: The similarity between Wheel of Time and LOTR has been mentioned...
It is of course intentional, and I started wondering: there is an inn called
Nine Rings somewhere there, and a story by the same name is mentioned...
Maybe Jordan means that the events of LOTR have happened at an earlier
spin of the Wheel...
Third: What is the name of the fifth part of WoT? And, is there a sixth
part available in paperback?
Fourth: Does someone else think that the cover art in Tor paperback
edition of The Eye of the World is horrendous?
Fifth: Tor paperbacks seem to lose their covers damned easily... anyone
else notice this or am I just unlucky... ?
--
'Listen! I have something to say! | JJ Karhu k11...@cc.tut.fi
It's better to burn out, | 'The Immoral Immortal' \o
than to fade away! | -=========================|xxxxxxo
/o
Roy Navarre
> Fifth: Tor paperbacks seem to lose their covers damned easily... anyone
>else notice this or am I just unlucky... ?
No its not just you. Many people have remarked on the covers falling
off their TOR jordan paperbacks. Maybe their 6.99$ Shadow Rising
paperback will last better. :)
Roy
--
Joseph Shaw
> when I did not read Jordan posts because of spoilers... but, the Wheel
> of Time turns, Subjects come and go... ;)
First, welcome.
> Anyway, first: My definition of Jordan's style: A cross between Eddings
> and Donaldson.
Why? I can understand the Eddings for the most part, but not the
Donaldson part. I haven't yet read the Coventant books yet (they're
sitting on my bookcase waiting for me to finish my thesis) -- as became
obvious a couple days ago when I missed the reference Emmet pointed out
(thanks, everybody) -- but I have read other Donaldson, and from what
I've read here on rasfw as well, I don't see any real similarities.
Is it similarity just to the Covenant books, or more style-wise? The
most common classification of Donaldson I've seen here is the 'sick'
characters, and I don't really see much of that in TWoT (except maybe
as Rand starts going wakko), but nothing like the mental problems I've
seen in the Gap characters. Can you explain?
Perhaps this is another case of authors drawing on the same myths?
Or should I just read the Covenant books?
> Third: What is the name of the fifth part of WoT? And, is there a sixth
> part available in paperback?
_The Fires of Heaven_. The sixth book is not yet been published;
it's tentatively titled _Lord of Chaos_ or _The Lord of Chaos_.
> Fourth: Does someone else think that the cover art in Tor paperback
> edition of The Eye of the World is horrendous?
Many of us, but it's not quite as bad as some make it out to be...
> Fifth: Tor paperbacks seem to lose their covers damned easily... anyone
> else notice this or am I just unlucky... ?
It's not just you, it's happened to many of the pb's of the Dragon Reborn
here in the US, but I wasn't aware of the same problem overseas.
- Joe
--
Joseph Shaw | This _is_ my hobby! | Delete this sig when quoting!!
GTA/Grad. Student +---------------------+--------------------------------
Computer Science | "For they shall suck of the abundance of the
Virginia Tech | net and of the treasure hid in the hosts..."
David DeLaney
> As it is, maybe all these things have been discussed to death earlier
>when I did not read Jordan posts because of spoilers... but, the Wheel
>of Time turns, Subjects come and go... ;)
>part available in paperback?
The Fires of Heaven (which is not yet in paperback as far as I know). No, not
until next fall, when it'll be out in hardback. :-(
> Fourth: Does someone else think that the cover art in Tor paperback
>edition of The Eye of the World is horrendous?
Yes. It's in the FAQ as a separate section.
> Fifth: Tor paperbacks seem to lose their covers damned easily... anyone
>else notice this or am I just unlucky... ?
It's also been noticed; someone posted a method for gluing them back on. I've
only had one go this way (The Dragon Reborn)...
Email Pam Korda for a FAQ copy.
Dave "walls of books" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; ObQuote: `I suggest quoting 'J"K"P' and
'J"RR"P' both. --K' Disclaimer: Opinions? UTK?? Me??? BWAAAAHahahahaa <choke>
<snort> hee hee; Thinking about this disclaimer (or about theor. particle __
physics) may cause headaches. Vicki and Paul and Ted and Alice. Kibo #: +1 \/
Bill Garrett
|> In article <2hh4ht$d...@cc.tut.fi> k11...@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Karhu Jouni) writes:
|>
|> > Anyway, first: My definition of Jordan's style: A cross between Eddings
|> > and Donaldson.
|>
|> Why? I can understand the Eddings for the most part, but not the
|> Donaldson part.
It's been many years since I read Donalsdon, but I'd disagree with the
comparison to Eddings. Unless, of course, you mean simple storytelling.
Eddings' books take relatively standard plots (actually, all take roughly
the same plot) and provide just enough craft and embellishment to make
them interesting. Characterization? Sure, a thumbnail sketch of each
personality, hammered in over the space of many books, but not much other
than that. Detail? His cultures (and many characters) are pretty flaky.
Novelty? Believability? I gave him credit the first time, but the same
old plot gets pretty stale when he repeats it through 4 series.
Jordan's storytelling is masterful, but what really enchants me about his
series is his depth of detail in characterization and background. Many
folks criticize him for wordiness, but into those words he packs an amazing
wealth of information. His characters and cultures are the most believable
I've encountered in many years of fiction.
All IMHO, of course.
--
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Bill Garrett University of North Carolina |
| gar...@cs.unc.edu Department of Computer Science |
*---- Anywhere is walking distance if you only live two blocks away ----*
Susan Kretschmer
>In article <2hh4ht$d...@cc.tut.fi> k11...@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Karhu Jouni) writes:
>> Fifth: Tor paperbacks seem to lose their covers damned easily... anyone
>>else notice this or am I just unlucky... ?
Heh! Nope; I purchased my Jordan books only two weeks ago. (Read the 1st 4
books in 3 days...aaaak! OVERLOAD!) And my Dragon Reborn has already fallen
apart...many thanks to the public-service poster on how to mend it :)
The paperbacks are so thick it's hard to read them without abusing them unless
you put them down flat on something.
As to the art; yes, it's incredibly awful. The section on it in the FAQ
is absolutely correct (and extremely funny). Somebody ought to start a GIF
archive of paintings depicting Rand, Mat, et al. as they REALLY look...I'd
be willing to contribute...
Susie
--
Susie Kretschmer
CWRU School of Medicine "Don't ask me, I'm just improvising"
MSTP Class of 1998 --Rush, PRESTO
Internet: sx...@po.cwru.edu
Karhu Jouni
>In article <2hh4ht$d...@cc.tut.fi>
>k11...@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Karhu Jouni) writes:
>First, welcome.
Thanks :)
>> Anyway, first: My definition of Jordan's style: A cross between Eddings
>> and Donaldson.
>Why? I can understand the Eddings for the most part, but not the
>Donaldson part. I haven't yet read the Coventant books yet (they're
>sitting on my bookcase waiting for me to finish my thesis) -- as became
... snip ...
>Is it similarity just to the Covenant books, or more style-wise? The
>most common classification of Donaldson I've seen here is the 'sick'
>characters, and I don't really see much of that in TWoT (except maybe
>as Rand starts going wakko), but nothing like the mental problems I've
>seen in the Gap characters. Can you explain?
Ah, the Covenant books are precisely what I had in mind... the 'feel'
of the world is so similar (IMHO). For example, the Green Man could
have been straight out of a Covenant book, however entish he was. Also,
there is Covenant's reluctance for using magic and believing in the
Land, and Rand's not wanting to be used by the Aes Sedai and channel.
Anyway, to add one more writer: Shadar Logoth could be straight out
from something by Robert E. Howard...
>Perhaps this is another case of authors drawing on the same myths?
>Or should I just read the Covenant books?
Read the Covenant books. You like them or you don't. :)
Anyway, one rather Eddings-type thing in tWoT is the wolves. Now, does
the idea of wolves being telepathic and 'good' creatures come from some
myth? Or is Jordan just inspired by Eddings?
>- Joe
Karhu Jouni
>|> In article <2hh4ht$d...@cc.tut.fi> k11...@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Karhu Jouni) writes:
>|>
>|> > Anyway, first: My definition of Jordan's style: A cross between Eddings
>|> > and Donaldson.
>It's been many years since I read Donalsdon, but I'd disagree with the
>comparison to Eddings. Unless, of course, you mean simple storytelling.
Well, maybe I should have said 'Jordan's world' or something like that...
It is obvious that Jordan's literary style (or whatever :) is superior to
that of Eddings'.
>Jordan's storytelling is masterful, but what really enchants me about his
>series is his depth of detail in characterization and background. Many
>folks criticize him for wordiness, but into those words he packs an amazing
>wealth of information. His characters and cultures are the most believable
>I've encountered in many years of fiction.
Yeah, Eddings' cultures were SO stereotypical... but they actually worked
quite well... they were fun to readf about :)
Anyway, what makes Eddings and Jordan similar (somewhat) (IMHO) is the
setting: we have a party of people, some are young know-nothings, some are
master fighters, some use magic, they travel all around a world with many
different cultures and the know-nothings learn things, and finally a fight
against a great evil ensues... Well, not that nobody else has used this
setting before, but :) :) Well, there were other small things... But
there is one thing I'm grateful about: I have not yet seen an unbeatable
female warrior in tWoT... (fingers crossed..)
What counts, though, is how well you pull it off...
>All IMHO, of course.
But of course.
David Wren-Hardin
>
>--
>Books) Second, the newest book is not yet out in hardback. It will
>probably come out this Octomber or November. Rumor has it that it will
>be called TRUMPETS OF DOOM (Don't ask me HOW these guys find out these
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>things). And finally you are not just unlucky with the covers. The same
Where did you here this ? We have a posting from the Mr. Nielsen-Hayden,
a senior editor at TOR books, that the next book will be called
(The) Lord of Chaos. I don't recall Trumpets of Doom ever being mentioned.
--
*****************************************************************************
David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this.
Vince Luong
--
Welcome to the fold, new fan! First let me answer your questions real
fast. The Fifth book of the serires is called FIRES OF HEAVEN.
Unfortunately it is in hardcover and costs 24.95 (about). You might want
to wait a year for the paperback ($6.99) but if you're a very rabid
Jordan fan and can't wait there are bookstores who offer discounts (Crown
probably come out this Octomber or November. Rumor has it that it will
be called TRUMPETS OF DOOM (Don't ask me HOW these guys find out these
reasons I bought the series in hardcover.
Pam Korda
>In article <2hibmv$r...@eis.calstate.edu> vlu...@eis.calstate.edu (Vince Luong) writes:
>>be called TRUMPETS OF DOOM (Don't ask me HOW these guys find out these
>Where did you here this ? We have a posting from the Mr. Nielsen-Hayden,
>a senior editor at TOR books, that the next book will be called
>(The) Lord of Chaos. I don't recall Trumpets of Doom ever being mentioned.
Somebody said this in an off-hand manner at some point--"So, in book
six, _The Trumpets of Doom_, or whatever it is called, will the truth
about Jain Farstrider be revealed?" It was not meant seriously. The
above fellow (vince) should read the FAQ, where all such knowledge can
be gleaned.
==============================================================================
Pam Korda | To get the jordanFAQ between
Keeper of the Chronicles (FAQueen) | postings, E-mail me, or ftp
ko...@ellis.uchicago.edu | it from ftp.cs.olemiss.edu.
ko...@tmn.com |
==============================================================================
Ron Asbestos Dippold
I noticed this when I bought the entire WOT series, and found that one by one,
the covers would come off, no matter how careful I was. I'm used to books that
can keep their covers after major mistreatment (like being slept on). I
went back through my collection and noted that other books whose covers I
thought I must have mistreated (since they came off) were from TOR. I'd
never made the connection before. I did send a polite but firm message to
TOR books through Patrick pointing out how ridiculous it was to saddle
themselves with this type of reputation. I'm sure there have been other
complaints, maybe they've gotten the message.
David Wren-Hardin
Actually, Patrick N-H posted awhile back saying that TOR didn't like
coverless books either, and you should send yours back, and they'd
replace it. He said he wanted to hear about this so it could be
relayed tothe publisher.
Nielsen Hayden
(Ron "Asbestos" Dippold) writes:
>I went back through my collection and noted that other books whose covers I
>thought I must have mistreated (since they came off) were from TOR. I'd
>never made the connection before. I did send a polite but firm message to
>TOR books through Patrick pointing out how ridiculous it was to saddle
>themselves with this type of reputation. I'm sure there have been other
>complaints, maybe they've gotten the message.
"rdip...@qualcomm.com", eh? So maybe you can tell me why PC Eudora keeps
crashing and burning on me. I'm sure you're aware how ridiculous it is to
saddle yourself with this type of reputation... :)
In all seriousness, I'm aware of the problem; while I don't mind hearing
from people about it, filling my mailbox won't make me any more aware of
it. Send hardcopy complaint mail instead -- our address is on the copyright
page of all our books.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : senior editor, Tor Books : p...@panix.com
Roy Navarre
>Send hardcopy complaint mail instead -- our address is on the copyright
>page of all our books.
Snail mail? Are you serious? People still use this?
:)
Roy
--
Laird P. Broadfield
[...Tor covers falling off...]
>In all seriousness, I'm aware of the problem; while I don't mind hearing
>from people about it, filling my mailbox won't make me any more aware of
>it. Send hardcopy complaint mail instead -- our address is on the copyright
>page of all our books.
Snail mail? Seriously though, perhaps you'd better clarify your
melant'i in this forum, Patrick -- are you Patrick Of Tor, Righter of
Wrongs, Defender of Truth, and Official Tor Liason to the Net (in which
case directing complaints about covers falling off and believing that
you should pass them on as appropriate is reasonable) or, are
you P. Nielsen Hayden, Mild-Mannered Private Citizen, Drinker of
Mai-Tai's, and Coincidentally Occasionally Permitted to Pass On
Gossip from Place of Employment (in which case it would not be
unreasonable for you to mention that you're aware of the problem,
but it _would_ be wrong for people to flood you with complaints.)
Just for the record, I'm glad to have Patrick here in any role, ditto
Ellen, I've never had a Tor fall apart on me (and I *love* to crack
the little creatures' spines and then re-read them again and again),
and I don't even know who Jordan is (sounds like another of those
damn elf-fantasy writers though, bleah.)
--
Laird P. Broadfield lai...@crash.cts.com ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi! I'm a shareware signature! Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
Nielsen Hayden
(Laird P. Broadfield) writes:
>Snail mail? Seriously though, perhaps you'd better clarify your
>melant'i in this forum, Patrick -- are you Patrick Of Tor, Righter of
>Wrongs, Defender of Truth, and Official Tor Liason to the Net (in which
>case directing complaints about covers falling off and believing that
>you should pass them on as appropriate is reasonable) or, are
>you P. Nielsen Hayden, Mild-Mannered Private Citizen, Drinker of
>Mai-Tai's, and Coincidentally Occasionally Permitted to Pass On
>Gossip from Place of Employment (in which case it would not be
>unreasonable for you to mention that you're aware of the problem,
>but it _would_ be wrong for people to flood you with complaints.)
Thanks for the kind thoughts, but I don't buy the distinction I think you're
trying to make. I've said more than once that complaints about paperback
covers are most effective if sent in hardcopy form to our office address;
whether or not Tor pays for my net access really shouldn't make any
difference.
In fact they don't, and I'm nobody's "official liaison" to anything, but I
reject the suggestion that if they did, using my email address as a target
for mailbombing would then be appropriate.
Sorry of this sounds a little stiff, but oddly enough, I find that being
peremptorily lectured on what I'd "better" do tends to get my back up. I'm
sure you mean well.
Dani Zweig
>>Snail mail?
>I've said more than once that complaints about paperback
>covers are most effective if sent in hardcopy form to our office address
For those who insist upon email, however, you might offer an email guarantee --
that if they email you a description of a damaged book you will, at no
extra charge, email them back a description of a copy that's in perfect shape.
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
Roses red and violets blew
and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser
DRCV06::EBINGER
the quality of the Wheel of Time paperback covers.
I am not employeed by Tor, I do not have ANY relationship with
Tor (except for buying some of their books). First of all the artwork
on the covers IS inaccurate. So what? The artwork is ALWAYS inaccurate!
That's the way it is. Pick 10 books at random off of your shelves
(that have artwork on the cover, rather than a semi-random pattern) and
8 of them will have pictures on the cover that do NOT match any scene in
the book. The other two will have pictures that are vague enough that
you can't decide for certain.
Second, the quality of the bindings on Tor paperbacks. In
general, Tor books are quite good quality. The exception is the Jordan
series. The reason is the length of the books. They are really too
long for simple binding that are used. Unfortunately, shifting to
a binding that would be more appropriate would significantly increase the
cost of the books.
What's wrong with the bindings? The covers fall off. You still
have a book (it doesn't have a cover but it is still a book). It is
a five minute job to reattach the cover. I don't see the problem. I
have books (much smaller ones - should hold up better) where the covers
stay on but the pages fall out. Now that's a PROBLEM!
I have reason to believe that the problems with the covers have been
resolved anyways. Has anyone had a problem with the cover of The Shadow
Rising? On my copy it has remained securely attached.
All in all, physically, Tor books are some of the highest quality
paperbacks you can buy. They hold up far better than most to the obuse I
put them through. I just wish Tor would get Glen Cook to finish the
Black Company series :^)
We are very lucky to have any one from any of the publishers who is
willing to pass along information. We should be gratefull. We should
show our gratitude by being nice to them, not harrassing them about a
minor issue!
There, I feel better now :^) If I have offended anyone, I apologize.
Eric Ebinger
ebi...@vax3.drc.com
Nielsen Hayden
EBINGER%DRCV06...@vax3.drc.com (DRCV06::EBINGER) writes:
> All right! I've had enough of this picking on Tor employees over
>the quality of the Wheel of Time paperback covers.
[etc.]
I don't think the complaining is unwarranted; we _do_ have problems with our
bindings sometimes, and not just with the Jordan books. (Greg Bear's EON
comes to mind.) Whether we have more problems than anyone else is up to
others to determine. I've got nothing against readers complaining when they
feel they've been sold shoddy goods, I'm just saying they should send hardcopy
letters to Tor about it. This may come as a surprise to some people in rasfw,
but Tom Doherty rarely reads Usenet. Almost never. 'Struth.
jeez. :)
Dani Zweig gets the Peter Graham Memorial Award for being quietly funnier than
anyone else.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : senior editor, evil Tor Books : p...@panix.com
W. Aaron Waychoff
Card. First, the cover protrudes about an eighth of an inch past the
pages on one side. Second, it is slightly crooked. Third the top pages
were cut at an angle, not flat. Hmmm... I bought it at a respected
bookstore, so I SERIOUSLY doubt it was a counterfeit, especially because
the print quality on the cover was good. Oh well, shouldn't worry about
it now, I'm already done with the book
--
*** Printed on 100% recycled electrons ***
W. Aaron Waychoff / ____/ / ____/ wayc...@uidaho.edu
University of Idaho / / /_/____ wayc...@cs.uidaho.edu
Moscow, Idaho / /___ ___ / /
/_____/ /_____/
Nielsen Hayden
>I have noticed a big problem with the TOR "Speaker for the Dead" by OS
>Card. First, the cover protrudes about an eighth of an inch past the
>pages on one side. Second, it is slightly crooked. Third the top pages
>were cut at an angle, not flat. Hmmm... I bought it at a respected
>bookstore, so I SERIOUSLY doubt it was a counterfeit, especially because
>the print quality on the cover was good. Oh well, shouldn't worry about
>it now, I'm already done with the book
What you got is what is known in highly technical publishing language as a
"messed-up copy." Mail it to Tor with an explanatory note and we'll replace
it. (175 Fifth Ave, New York NY 10010.)
-----
p...@panix.com
Roy Navarre
>the quality of the Wheel of Time paperback covers.
>have a book (it doesn't have a cover but it is still a book). It is
>a five minute job to reattach the cover. I don't see the problem. I
People dont spend 6$ to spend 5 minutes 'reattaching' a cover.
>Has anyone had a problem with the cover of The Shadow
>Rising? On my copy it has remained securely attached.
At 6.99 it should read itself to you, never mind keeping its cover on.
> All in all, physically, Tor books are some of the highest quality
>paperbacks you can buy. They hold up far better than most to the obuse I
>put them through.
Dont know about that. Their WOT paperbacks would have been recalled
if they were cars.
To the credit of the TOR people on the net, they responded credibly to
the many complaints and explained how to get them exchanged. I dont
think anyone is picking on TOR, indeed its nice to have them
represented in the group. For us Jordan fans their quick nipping of
the "Jordan had a heart attack and wont finish the series" rumour more
than offsets our gripes about shabby paperbacks.
Roy
>Black Company series :^)
> We are very lucky to have any one from any of the publishers who is
>willing to pass along information. We should be gratefull. We should
>show our gratitude by being nice to them, not harrassing them about a
>minor issue!
> There, I feel better now :^) If I have offended anyone, I apologize.
>
> Eric Ebinger
> ebi...@vax3.drc.com
>
>
--
Roy Navarre
>Patrick Nielsen Hayden : senior editor, evil Tor Books : p...@panix.com
*ACK*
This seems like a clear hint that Rand will lose and the Darkone
triumph. DAMN! I HATE SPOILERS!
Roy :)
--
Nielsen Hayden
No, it's a signal that I don't work for the real Tor, but for Bizarro Tor!
No! Am Bizarro editor, send unsolicited terrible manuscripts to aspiring
writers! Send huge sales force nationwide to confiscate and hide
bestselling paperbacks! Force Orson Scott Card to erase only extant
manuscript of fourth Alvin novel! Go into chain bookstores, turn all
competitors' books face out! Bizarro editing am big fun!
-----
Cngevpx Avryfra Unlqra : fravbe rqvgbe, Gbe Obbxf : c...@cnavk.pbz
Chris Croughton
>p...@panix.com (Nielsen Hayden):
>>>Snail mail?
>>I've said more than once that complaints about paperback
>>covers are most effective if sent in hardcopy form to our office address
>
>For those who insist upon email, however, you might offer an email guarantee --
>that if they email you a description of a damaged book you will, at no
>extra charge, email them back a description of a copy that's in perfect shape.
Or, since the term mailbombing was mentioned, he could send email back
with the entire Tor books catalogue (and any other stuff he finds lying
around, like uuencoded GIFs of the authors in the catalogue). I
originally thought of emailing them back the text and cover art of the
book (encrypted using DES to save copyright problems).
I really can't sympathise with people who can't distinguish between a
person and a company...
***********************************************************************
* ch...@keris.demon.co.uk * *
* chr...@cix.compulink.co.uk * FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life) *
* 10001...@compuserve.com * *
***********************************************************************
Bill Garrett
|> In article <2hsjlj$g...@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> nava...@ava.bcc.orst.edu (Roy Navarre) writes:
|>
|> >In article <pnh.26....@panix.com> p...@panix.com (Nielsen Hayden) writes:
|> >>Patrick Nielsen Hayden : senior editor, evil Tor Books : p...@panix.com
|> > ^^^^
|> >*ACK*
|> >This seems like a clear hint that Rand will lose and the Darkone
|> >triumph. DAMN! I HATE SPOILERS!
|>
|> No, it's a signal that I don't work for the real Tor, but for Bizarro Tor!
|> No! Am Bizarro editor, send unsolicited terrible manuscripts to aspiring
|> writers!
ROTFL!!
|> Send huge sales force nationwide to confiscate and hide
|> bestselling paperbacks! Force Orson Scott Card to erase only extant
|> manuscript of fourth Alvin novel! Go into chain bookstores, turn all
|> competitors' books face out! Bizarro editing am big fun!
You forgot the part about sneaking unbidden into peoples' homes at night
and ripping the covers off their Tor paperbacks.
|> Cngevpx Avryfra Unlqra : fravbe rqvgbe, Gbe Obbxf : c...@cnavk.pbz
Ah, yes, the old tongue for "Patrick Nielsen Hayden : senior editor,
Tor Books : p...@panix.com". Nice to see that the part about being evil
has been taken out. Maybe now the forces of Shadow will be beaten.
Light, send it so!
Laird P. Broadfield
>In article <lairdb.7...@crash.cts.com> lai...@crash.cts.com
>(Laird P. Broadfield) writes:
of Tor or a private citizen in this forum]
>Thanks for the kind thoughts, but I don't buy the distinction I think you're
>trying to make. I've said more than once that complaints about paperback
>covers are most effective if sent in hardcopy form to our office address;
...and politicans pay the most attention to letters, with faxes a close
second and phonecalls an extremely distant third. Nonetheless, they
still have phone numbers, and still accept and tally the calls that
come in. The point I was *trying* to make is that you've "said more
than once that complaints... are __more effective__ if sent in hardcopy
form to our office address" (emphasis mine); what you have _not_ said is
that complaints sent to you are futile and impolite. I.e., you have not
clarified that your email presence is *not* to be treated as an alternate,
if less effective, route _into_ Tor. Do you buy *that* distinction?
>In fact they don't, and I'm nobody's "official liaison" to anything, but I
>reject the suggestion that if they did, using my email address as a target
>for mailbombing would then be appropriate.
If there's been a suggestion of mailbombing, I missed it. Mailbombing
(in any of the accepted net.interpretations) is an act of terrorism IMO,
and it's perpetrators are not subject to the laws of war (and should be
net.shot-on-sight.)
What I thought I read was someone suggesting that unhappy people write
to Tor, using the convenient medium of email -- just as someone might
suggest that unhappy constituents phone their Representative.
Unfortunately, in this case it appears that they (in all innocence)
have suggested that the unhappy constituents phone the Rep's Chief
of Staff, at his house. This _is_ impolite, and _marginally_ excusable
on the grounds that it was unclear that this was a home number.
I'm sure that all now understand that questions, complaints, feedback,
etc. regarding Tor are to be directed exclusively to the company
snail-mail address, and I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize
for my own past email messages to you that touched on Tor concerns.
>Sorry of this sounds a little stiff, but oddly enough, I find that being
>peremptorily lectured on what I'd "better" do tends to get my back up. I'm
>sure you mean well.
Hmmm, a "preemptory lecture" was not what I intended in my previous post,
perhaps my somewhat offbeat English/law influenced written style misled
you. What I intended in my previous post was a suggestion as to where the
source of confusion lay, and how you might clear it up. I did mean well,
and still do.
(This post is rather more in the direction of a "preemptory lecture",
but I still wouldn't characterise it as such.)
>Patrick Nielsen Hayden : senior editor, Tor Books : p...@panix.com
BTW, situations like this are where the tradition of sig disclaimers
come from. Might I suggest:
> Patrick Nielsen Hayden - senior editor, Tor Books - p...@panix.com
> Disclaimer: My occupation appears only as an explanation of where
> the information I disburse originates, and as an authentication
> thereof. I do not speak in an official capacity for "Tor", Tom
> Doherty, or Tom Doherty Associates Inc.; inquiries, comments,
> complaints, submissions, or legal processes should be directed to
> "Tom Doherty Associates, Inc., 175 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10010".
> Email to me is not a form of communication with Tom Doherty Associates,
> Inc., and anyone failing to grasp this concept will be met with
> severe flamage.
(Okay, this last bit is real close to a preemptory lecture, but at
least it's leavened with some irony and a sense of whimsy. (And still
meant well.))
Joe Slater
>In article <rdippold.758934983@happy> rdip...@qualcomm.com
>(Ron "Asbestos" Dippold) writes:
>>I went back through my collection and noted that other books whose covers I
>>thought I must have mistreated (since they came off) were from TOR. I'd
>>never made the connection before. I did send a polite but firm message to
>>TOR books through Patrick pointing out how ridiculous it was to saddle
>>themselves with this type of reputation. I'm sure there have been other
>>complaints, maybe they've gotten the message.
>In all seriousness, I'm aware of the problem; while I don't mind hearing
>from people about it, filling my mailbox won't make me any more aware of
>it. Send hardcopy complaint mail instead -- our address is on the copyright
>page of all our books.
Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
jds
--
j...@zikzak.apana.org.au | If I have been given to see further
T: +61-3-525-8728 F: +61-3-562-0756 | than other men, it is because I have
If all else fails try Fidonet: | stood on the faces of midgets.
joe_s...@f351.n632.z3.fidonet.org | - Astrel Joie
P Nielsen Hayden
elaborates on his assertion that I should clarify whether I'm in this
group as a private citizen or as a representative of Tor, and goes on to
say that he's "sure that all now understand that questions, complaints,
feedback, etc. regarding Tor are to be directed exclusively to the company
snail-mail address, and I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize for
my own past email messages to you that touched on Tor concerns."
I don't know exactly how we managed to turn left at Albuquerque, but this
discussion seems to me to be veering off into never-never land. At no
point have I said that I don't want to hear "questions, complaints,
feedback, etc. regarding Tor", via email or in this newsgroup. All I
really recall saying is that complaints about the manufacturing quality of
our paperbacks would be most effective if sent to the office in hardcopy.
Pertinently, Laird remarks that "situations like this are where the
tradition of sig disclaimers come from." No doubt. And in fact it's
interesting to note that this whole brouhaha (cue Firesign Theater:
"Brou-ha-ha? Brou-ha-ha!") began at precisely the point when I changed
newsreaders and stopped using my old .sig file, the one that included the
phrase "opinions mine." Clearly I should rectify this, and I will.
Elsewhere in this morning's news, Joe Slater inadvertantly underscores
some of Laird Broadfield's observations with a bit of Usenettish bluntness:
>>In all seriousness, I'm aware of the problem; while I don't mind hearing
>>from people about it, filling my mailbox won't make me any more aware of
>>it. Send hardcopy complaint mail instead -- our address is on the copyright
>>page of all our books.
>Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
>many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
>apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
Now, this is a bit belligerent; Mr. Slater clearly assumes that my
presence on this board is entirely analogous to (say) a Microsoft
customer-support rep cruising the Excel message base on Compuserve, and no
doubt figures that I can be counted on to return his verbal aggression
with soft and reassuring bureaucrat-speak. And yet despite this, Mr.
Slater is correct; at some point in these proceedings I should have
clearly said I'm Sorry Our Covers Keep Falling Off (and) We Sure Are Aware
Of The Problem, We'll Keep Working On It. Both of which are thoroughly
true statements.
Properly speaking I suppose this article should wind itself up with some
kind of apologia pro vita sua, some sort of grand clarification of Who I
Am On This Board and the relationship between Tor Books and my own persona
in the SF world. As many readers of rec.arts.sf.written are aware, my own
involvement with SF on the professional, fannish, and personal level goes
back long before my five years' employment by Tor, but that's neither
here nor there, particularly if I choose to put "senior editor, Tor Books"
in my .sig file. (I started doing that early on in my Usenet career for
the simple reason that I got tired of answering questions like "When is
the next volume in Calvin Aargh's STARS OF THE SLAVE GIANTS series coming
out" and getting responses like "That's not true, my cousin's girlfriend
works in a Waldenbooks and _she_ says", etc.)
The fact of the matter is, I pay for my own net access and I post to
Usenet as a private citizen, but one of the defining characteristics of
this private citizen is that he's a science fiction editor. So of course
I'm interested in reading Usenet posts and receiving letters that touch on
that aspect of my life, just as I'm interested in reading material about
(say) the music of Richard Thompson. Tor is a day job, but it's one I
undertake with a great deal of personal commitment, and I really can't see
erecting the sort of impermeable firewall between myself and Tor's
corporate self that I would build if I worked for, say, IBM.
And yet on the other hand my job title is senior editor, not publisher or
editor-in-chief; I don't have the power to change everything
unsatisfactory with the wave of a wand. (For that matter, neither do
they, but that's another article.) And yet, amazingly enough, I don't
much care to spend my time on Usenet being treated the way frustrated
customers treat Microsoft support reps on Compuserve. I _really_ don't
want to be treated as some kind of Big Business representative, as the
corporado out among the little people. I'm sure this is just me being
wildly unrealistic as usual, but seems to me that in the sf field, people
have historically tended to wear a lot of different hats, simultaneously
and/or serially (the attentive student is directed to the careers of
Frederik Pohl and the late Terry Carr for examples of this) and that
perhaps even rec.arts.sf.written can learn to cope with this demanding
fact.
Or maybe not. Whether or not you care about this, I suppose, depends on
how you see yourself in relation to the larger SF community. Those who
view themselves entirely as customers and consumers can, I imagine, be
forgiven if all of the preceding strikes them as self-indulgent baloney.
All these people want is information about the merchandise, and the
occasional chance to express annoyance when the product is unsatisfactory.
What on earth this guy is on about, his personal history and his emotional
relationship to whatsit, just who the hell cares? Well, and yes. Can't
argue with that.
It's all worth a passing thought, at any rate.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com
senior editor, Tor Books : opinions mine
Ellen Key Harris
>p...@panix.com (Nielsen Hayden) writes:
>>In all seriousness, I'm aware of the problem; while I don't mind hearing
>>from people about it, filling my mailbox won't make me any more aware of
>>it. Send hardcopy complaint mail instead -- our address is on the copyright
>>page of all our books.
>Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
>many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
>apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
Never overestimate the power (or lack thereof) of the measly editor in
the corporate publishing empire. I'm sure that if Patrick were Lord
of Tor and All He Surveyed, he would D.S.R.N. However, in real life,
there are many other people in charge of many parts of Tor, including
production (and production quality). You wouldn't want Patrick to
spread false promises, would you?
Regular old snail-mail letters of complaint, with return addresses,
etc., are far more comprehensible to offline folks than printouts of
e-mail, and much more likely to be taken seriously. This is why
high-schoolers get taught to write business letters.
--
|DEL| Ellen Key Harris e...@panix.com E.Ha...@GEnie.geis.com
|REY| Editor, Del Rey Books 201 East 50th Street, NY NY 10022 USA
======================================================================
Roy Navarre
>Elsewhere in this morning's news, Joe Slater inadvertantly underscores
>some of Laird Broadfield's observations with a bit of Usenettish bluntness:
>>many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
>>apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
I thought he might be lampooning politicians. On the other hand, not
being aware of his posting history/style and given the absence of a
smiley maybe he is just a frustrated customer posting from under a
pile of torn TOR covers. :)
Roy
--
Roy Navarre
>>something about "Lord of ToR".
Lord of The other Ring? Are you saying there has been a sequel to
LOR and Del Rey is publishing it?
Roy (confused and clueless :) )
--
Gary D. Duzan
=>
=>As to the art; yes, it's incredibly awful. The section on it in the FAQ
=>is absolutely correct (and extremely funny). Somebody ought to start a GIF
=>archive of paintings depicting Rand, Mat, et al. as they REALLY look...I'd
=>be willing to contribute...
=>
Who's for taking up a collection to commision Michael Whelan to do
new cover art? :-)
Gary Duzan
Time Lord
Third Regeneration
Aielman
p.s. My copy of tEotW is holding up pretty well, but tGH is falling
apart. I don't care much, though, since I have the hardcovers.
GD,TL,TR,A
--
ga...@dsh.org
_o_ ------------ _o_
[|o o|] First things first, but not necessarily in that order. [|o o|]
|_O_| Disclaimer: I have no idea what I am talking about. |_O_|
Linda B. Merims
of the network, he provides _informed_ input that is non-commercial.
He has nothing to defend himself about.
Linda B. Merims
Waltham, MA
Elizabeth Willey
response to Ron Dippold's clueless complaint about paperback book
glue:
But wait. Why, asks the inflamed reader, cleverly alerted by biased
language, does she have her knickers in a knot about Dippold?
Well, let us review Mr Dippold's message, at least as excerpted by Mr
Slater:
>>I went back through my collection and noted that other books whose covers I
>>thought I must have mistreated (since they came off) were from TOR. I'd
>>never made the connection before. I did send a polite but firm message to
>>TOR books through Patrick pointing out how ridiculous it was to saddle
>>themselves with this type of reputation. I'm sure there have been other
>>complaints, maybe they've gotten the message.
Mr Dippold sent a polite but firm message to Mr Nielsen Hayden's
public-access, non-work-related computer account and expected Mr
Nielsen Hayden to undertake the chore of downloading and printing out
the complaint, to be forwarded on to the production department. (This
assumes that Mr Nielsen Hayden has, among other things, time to devote
to such public-spirited tasks and a printer at home.) This is
clueless. I wouldn't do this if I wanted to get results, and neither
would most other consumers with a problem with someone's product. You
have a problem, you contact the company IN WRITING ON PAPER, which is
not so primitive as it would appear. Instantly readable, easily
distributed and copied, and inexpensive, paper is preferred by most
businesses for conducting business. Shocking, but well-known.
Perhaps you consider that sending more paper correspondence is merely
condoning, nay, enabling this infantile corporate attitude. Still,
paper is the way complaint letters work. Even when somebody from the
business (who may not be involved with the department with which you
have your complaint) is available electronically.
This digression is perhaps more acerbic than necessary; however, the
cumulative effect of all those messages whining at a guy who is one of
the few people at his company with a computer account who is visible
on the net is...well, one becomes a touch bilious.
p...@panix.com (Nielsen Hayden) writes:
>In all seriousness, I'm aware of the problem; while I don't mind hearing
>from people about it, filling my mailbox won't make me any more aware of
>it. Send hardcopy complaint mail instead -- our address is on the copyright
>page of all our books.
Mr Slater, as I wrote above, issued a Bull in response:
Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
Mr Nielsen Hayden has presented Mr Slater and others with the remedy
to quality-control problems in the production end of the business.
Send a written, paper complaint to the appropriate address. (Hint:
enclose *your* address, the one at which you receive bills and Christmas
cards, the paper ones.)
Why Mr Slater felt that this was not sufficient is a question only Mr
Slater should answer, and that only in private, after searching his
soul deeply and asking, "Would I Do Something Right Now if some guy on
the net told me? Say, jump off a bridge, or maybe run back and forth
across a busy highway after dark? If some guy on the net complained
at me about the crummy printing on my large software company's
documentation, and my job is in personnel, would I rush in to work and
declare a crusade?" Several days of introspection on this theme, in
retreat from the world and its temptations, may enable Mr Slater, and
other users who fail to grasp the complexity of social structure and
corporate intricacy, to come to some terms with the graceless world we
inhabit.
We can only hope so.
Elizabeth Willey
Ron Asbestos Dippold
>crashing and burning on me. I'm sure you're aware how ridiculous it is to
>saddle yourself with this type of reputation... :)
One word... Windows! Actually, you can get the free upgrade to 2.1 by
ftping to ftp.qualcomm.com if you're using an older version.
>In all seriousness, I'm aware of the problem; while I don't mind hearing
>from people about it, filling my mailbox won't make me any more aware of
>it. Send hardcopy complaint mail instead -- our address is on the copyright
>page of all our books.
Use snail-mail? My head would explode!
--
LAPD Motto: Let's leave early and beat the crowd.
Troyce
Navarre) wrote:
Not really, it's just that Drambouie Press has acquired reprints rights to
Lord of the Rings, and is re-issuing it under the title SWORDS AGAINST THE
DARK LORD.
(very evil smile)
--
Please read THE ELEMENT OF FIRE by Martha Wells. I live with the author
and want to go back to Disney World this year :)
Chuq Von Rospach
>>>Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
>>>many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
>>>apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
Maybe Patrick doesn't believe in lying to folks, and would rather not say
"I'll go do something" when he doesn't know what can be done, or what needs
to be done isn't under his control?
Given that Tor doesn't print their own books, but hires a printer to print
the books, maybe, just maybe, it's not as simple as Patrick taking the
elevator down to the basement and screaming at the slaves "quit that or no
gruel for dinner!".
--
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach (ch...@apple.com) *&* Member SFWA *&* Editor OtherRealms
GEnie: CHUQ *&* ABS Product Technical Support (AppleSearch, A/UX and DAL )
Alink: CHUQ *&* Owner of SF Giants and Minor League baseball mailing lists
But to my mind, though I am native here, and to the manner born, it is a
custom more honour'd in the breach than in the observance.
Roy Navarre
>nava...@ava.bcc.orst.edu (Roy Navarre) writes:
>
>>>>Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
>>>>many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
>>>>apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
*ack*
I didnt write this! Wrong attribution.
Roy
--
Chris Croughton
j...@zikzak.apana.org.au "Joe Slater" writes:
>Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
>many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
>apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
Excuse me? *Patrick* does not have a problem (except people blaming
him), TOR BOOKS has a problem. Possibly Tom Doherty has a problem, if a
lot of people are dissatisfied. Patrick *works* for them as an
*employee* - he has no authority (as he has said, repeatedly) to issue
either apologies or promises on behalf of the company. If you read his
sig, it says "senior editor" - not Production Director, or General
Manager, or anything else like that. An editor is in charge of
*editing* - that means reading books and telling the authors where
corrections are required (or rejecting them outright), occasionally
saying "that one's good enough for publication". It does *not* mean
doing quality control on the printing and binding process, or
distribution, etc.
P Nielsen Hayden
(Chris Croughton) writes:
>In article <2hvv2q$8...@zikzak.apana.org.au>
>j...@zikzak.apana.org.au "Joe Slater" writes:
>>Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
>>many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
>>apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
>Excuse me? *Patrick* does not have a problem (except people blaming
>him), TOR BOOKS has a problem. Possibly Tom Doherty has a problem, if a
>lot of people are dissatisfied. Patrick *works* for them as an
>*employee* - he has no authority (as he has said, repeatedly) to issue
>either apologies or promises on behalf of the company.
While I appreciate the defense, in fact I have quite a bit of authority to
issue both apologies and promises on behalf of the company--in my areas of
responsibility and competence. Which is why I have resisted, in this
discussion, accepting the usual Usenet formula of hey-don't-look-at-me-I-
just-work-here.
The binding of paperbacks is not one of my areas of responsibility or
competence, but I apologize for it anyway. For about the umpteenth time, I
must remark that if you mail us a relatively new paperback from which the
cover has become detached, we'll mail you a fresh copy. (No guarantees if
the book is out of print.) However, for the similarly umpteenth time, I
remark that Usenet chat on the subject hs very little effect. Except to
remind me that it's a small but chronic problem. I know that already. :)
I am beginning, I think, to grasp the slightly non-linear, jesus-didn't-we-
go-over-this-twice-before aspect of Usenet discussion. Personally, I blame
threading, which allows people to respond (apparantly) directly to messages
from way the hell back, taking no cognizance of anything that's been said
since.
Incidentally, if I really didn't have any "authority...to issue either
promises or apologies on behalf of the company," I'd have a heck of a time
buying books, since I'd be unable to strike a deal with an agent, or execute
the legal documents which followed. But those are matters inside my sphere of
competence.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com
bemused senior editor, Tor Books : opinions mine
Rebecca Leann Smit Crowley
: I am beginning, I think, to grasp the slightly non-linear, jesus-didn't-we-
: go-over-this-twice-before aspect of Usenet discussion. Personally, I blame
: threading, which allows people to respond (apparantly) directly to messages
: from way the hell back, taking no cognizance of anything that's been said
: since.
I don't know. I think threading actually helps, since I've got a lot
more incentive to check all responses to the article in the thread
before posting myself, than churning through every single message
in the group, by which time I've forgotten whatever it was I was
going to say (this might be a good thing, in reducing traffic, actually,
but I doubt it in practice).
I like to blame long discussions combined with short expirations
at people's sites -- they don't ever see some of the articles in
a thread, because they're gone already. Sort of like at certain
parties where, after 45 minutes of debating some hopelessly trivial
issue (Bernoulli effect and showers or something equally inane),
the one genuinely brilliant person in the room has finally succeeded
in convincing everyone what *really* happens to make the shower
curtain suck in when you take a shower. The conversation, which finally
has an opportunity to turn to more important things, like when the
group sent to buy beer will return, remains stalled because the group sent
to buy beer returns, having had a full twenty minutes to come
up with additional speculation about shower curtains, and the whole
damn thing starts all over again.
The thing that's starting to seriously spook me out is this
Heinlein/race thing, which has been going on for, what, three
months? Continuously, no less.
--
Rebecca Crowley standard disclaimers apply rcro...@zso.dec.com
Rebel without a cod.
Joe Slater
>In <2hvv2q$8...@zikzak.apana.org.au> j...@zikzak.apana.org.au (Joe Slater) writes:
>>p...@panix.com (Nielsen Hayden) writes:
>>Patrick, given that you have a quality problem, and that it's evident
>>many people are annoyed about it, why isn't your reaction an immediate
>>apology and a promise to Do Something Right Now?
>Never overestimate the power (or lack thereof) of the measly editor in
>the corporate publishing empire. I'm sure that if Patrick were Lord
>of Tor and All He Surveyed, he would D.S.R.N. However, in real life,
>there are many other people in charge of many parts of Tor, including
>production (and production quality). You wouldn't want Patrick to
>spread false promises, would you?
Um... Hmm. I don't know. If I were he I would probably have said
something like: "Joe, I am shocked at the extent of this problem, and as
I type my minions are scurrying away to purchase new brushes and replace
the shoddy glue with a superior mixture." It would satisfy me, and
probably give him some small amount of pleasure. In any event, he says
that Tor *are* doing something about it, or trying to, which is nice.
Ron Asbestos Dippold
>But wait. Why, asks the inflamed reader, cleverly alerted by biased
>language, does she have her knickers in a knot about Dippold?
Why is she writing like a pompous buffoon, he asks?
>Mr Dippold sent a polite but firm message to Mr Nielsen Hayden's
>public-access, non-work-related computer account and expected Mr
This followed some other mail with Mr. Nielsen-Hayden which the
pompous buffoon in question knows nothing about.
--
I shave with Occam's Razor.
Bronis Vidugiris
)While I appreciate the defense, in fact I have quite a bit of authority to
)issue both apologies and promises on behalf of the company--in my areas of
)responsibility and competence. Which is why I have resisted, in this
)discussion, accepting the usual Usenet formula of hey-don't-look-at-me-I-
)just-work-here.
)
)The binding of paperbacks is not one of my areas of responsibility or
)competence, but I apologize for it anyway. For about the umpteenth time, I
)must remark that if you mail us a relatively new paperback from which the
)cover has become detached, we'll mail you a fresh copy. (No guarantees if
)the book is out of print.) However, for the similarly umpteenth time, I
)remark that Usenet chat on the subject hs very little effect. Except to
)remind me that it's a small but chronic problem. I know that already. :)
Am I misrembering, or did you mention that the returned books would be useful
in tracking down the quality problem? Yet an additional reason to send
those books in - if true.
[Ye olde compare good units with bad to see what factors are important method
for tracking down failures, or at least narrowing the field.]
Interestingly enough, I've actually been reading about stuff like this
under the name of 'design of experiments' - people actually write books
about this topic!
--
"The power of this battlestation is _insignificant_ when compared with
the power of the Farce." - D. Vader.
Bronis Vidugiris
)Sort of like at certain
)parties where, after 45 minutes of debating some hopelessly trivial
)issue (Bernoulli effect and showers or something equally inane),
)the one genuinely brilliant person in the room has finally succeeded
)in convincing everyone what *really* happens to make the shower
)curtain suck in when you take a shower. The conversation, which finally
)has an opportunity to turn to more important things, like when the
)group sent to buy beer will return, remains stalled because the group sent
)to buy beer returns, having had a full twenty minutes to come
)up with additional speculation about shower curtains, and the whole
)damn thing starts all over again.
:-)
Unfortuantely, there really is an (almost) irrestible attraction to this sort
of argument. It's only trivial in terms of human significance - in terms of
abstract understanding, it seems to me to be fairly profound and worthwhile.
(I've just been reading a book which purport to have an explanation for why men
tend to be more interested in such arguments than women, for whatever it's
worth. The suggestion is that the tendency to treat objects and ideas with
passion - i.e treating abstract ideas like people - actually does have some
fundamental psychological causes related to very early uprbringing. The book
is broader than just this one issue - this is just one specific example of a
more general theory.)
Bill Garrett
|> In article <pnh.44....@panix.com>, pnh@panix (P Nielsen Hayden) writes:
|> >I am beginning, I think, to grasp the slightly non-linear, jesus-didn't-we-
|> >go-over-this-twice-before aspect of Usenet discussion. Personally, I blame
|> >threading, which allows people to respond (apparantly) directly to messages
|> >from way the hell back, taking no cognizance of anything that's been said
|> >since.
|>
Bookcovers are TOR's fault. The puerile obstinancy of Usenet readers in
complaining about problems without ever listening to solutions began long
before TOR covers started falling off and will likely continue until long
after Paul Hayden sabotages his last glue recipe.
Matthew P Wiener
>go-over-this-twice-before aspect of Usenet discussion. Personally, I blame
>threading, which allows people to respond (apparantly) directly to messages
>from way the hell back, taking no cognizance of anything that's been said
>since.
Personally, I blame it on TOR. When are you going to do something about it?
--
-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Matthew P Wiener
>|> Personally, I blame it on TOR. When are you going to do something about it?
>Bookcovers are TOR's fault. The puerile obstinancy of Usenet readers
>in complaining about problems without ever listening to solutions [...]
is caused by reading too many TOR books. So there.
Chris Croughton
>In article <759533...@keris.demon.co.uk> ch...@keris.demon.co.uk
>(Chris Croughton) writes:
>
>>Excuse me? *Patrick* does not have a problem (except people blaming
>>him), TOR BOOKS has a problem. Possibly Tom Doherty has a problem, if a
>>lot of people are dissatisfied. Patrick *works* for them as an
>>*employee* - he has no authority (as he has said, repeatedly) to issue
>>either apologies or promises on behalf of the company.
>
>While I appreciate the defense, in fact I have quite a bit of authority to
>issue both apologies and promises on behalf of the company--in my areas of
>responsibility and competence. Which is why I have resisted, in this
>discussion, accepting the usual Usenet formula of hey-don't-look-at-me-I-
>just-work-here.
I apologise - I should have added "except within his specific area of
responsibility" after the word 'company'. I didn't mean to imply that
you have no authority to issue statements at all, just that bookbinding
is not one of the areas you cover.
Obviously (to me!) you do have authority in the areas concerned with
editing - as you mention, negotiating with authors and agents etc.
>The binding of paperbacks is not one of my areas of responsibility or
>competence, but I apologize for it anyway. For about the umpteenth time, I
>must remark that if you mail us a relatively new paperback from which the
>cover has become detached, we'll mail you a fresh copy. (No guarantees if
>the book is out of print.) However, for the similarly umpteenth time, I
>remark that Usenet chat on the subject hs very little effect. Except to
>remind me that it's a small but chronic problem. I know that already. :)
Unfortunately, with books imported to Britain, the cost of sending it
back is almost the same as the new book (for an individual book). And
the overall cost would be more (since you - sorry, Tor - would have to
pay the same again to send me the new one).
>I am beginning, I think, to grasp the slightly non-linear, jesus-didn't-we-
>go-over-this-twice-before aspect of Usenet discussion. Personally, I blame
>threading, which allows people to respond (apparantly) directly to messages
>from way the hell back, taking no cognizance of anything that's been said
>since.
More likely the distribution time. I frequently get articles out of
order by several days (going by when they are dated and when my system
gets them). Also, lost of systems expire news quite quickly (the place
I feed from is on a one to two week expiry time, but a lot of places
seem to be only days), so mail gets missed and people only see it in
followup articles.
>Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com
>bemused senior editor, Tor Books : opinions mine
I like the new sig :-)