Did Jews live better in the past under Islam than under Christianity?
Terry Cross
Did Jews live better in the past under Islam than under Christianity?
It is difficult to compare fourteen centuries of Islam to twenty
centuries of Christianity, but it is generally true that while
discrimination occurred against Jews in the Islamic world on a regular
basis, they were rarely persecuted.
http://www.projetaladin.org/en/40-questions-40-answers/about-jews-muslims-and-christians.html
TCross
Michael Grosberg
> Did Jews live better in the past under Islam than under Christianity?
>
> It is difficult to compare fourteen centuries of Islam to twenty
> centuries of Christianity, but it is generally true that while
> discrimination occurred against Jews in the Islamic world on a regular
> basis, they were rarely persecuted.
Well, it's true, but what of it? why is it of interest to any of the
groups you crossposted to?
Terry Cross
wrote:
Because many in these groups in various threads have argued
otherwise. I always knew this was the truth, but this is the first
direct statement of verification I have found.
TCross
AllSeeing-I
>
> TCross
From a historical point of view they were rarely persecuted, unless
one equates discrimination with persecution.
Muhammad's successor 'Umar said that Jews and Christians should be
removed from all but the southern and eastern fringes of Arabia. As
with Hitler, sometimes it only takes a single person's decision to set
mankind's history in new directions. Such was the case with Umar.
But this decision was more of a betrayal since the Jews and Christians
fought in the early wars for Muhammad. Discrimination is what followed
because Muslim attitudes were changed by Umar toward the Christians
and Jew in Arabia.
As a side issue, it is inconceivable that Iran hates the Jewish nation
today considering the fact that Iran (known back then as Persia of
course), was the originator of religious freedom and protection for
the world.
Reading about their history in the middle east one can only come to
the conclusion that they just like to fight; About everything and
about anything; Such betrayals come easy to them. Which just causes
more fighting.
In fact, I bet they cannot even remember why they are fighting at
times. That is how long they have been at it.
The very first (recorded) betrayal however, happened more then six
thousand years ago when Abraham's first born son was not given his
birth right of being the first born.
This split Abraham's family into two separate ententes which latter
led to the 12 tribes of Hebrews and the 12 tribes of Arabs.
They have been fighting ever since.
Will in New Haven
It is true in and very interesting and important historically.
However, in modern western terms the difference between being a Jew
in, for instance Middle Ages Europe or a Dhimi in most Muslim nations,
while large, is unimportant. Neither of those situations is acceptable
for anyone who expects to be treated as a free human being. Either
would be something that should be corrected if at all possible.
The difference is that the treatment of the Jews in majority-Christian
lands has changed and the treatment of Jews and Christians in Muslim
(and some others) lands has not changed very much at all. There are
places where being a Dhimi is certainly better than the lot of most
people in most places throughout history but there are many places
where it is not. And there always _were_ places where being a Dhimi
was a decent posiiton, so there hasn't even been much progress.
--
Will in New Haven
Michael Grosberg
You can read more about the high point of muslim-jewish relations
here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain
It's not a secret or anything.
Still, you presented this without context. I don't know where this
subject was brought up, but coming up with verification for some claim
or other that was raised in a specific discussion, outside of that
discussion, is kinda pointless.
Quadibloc
> Because many in these groups in various threads have argued
> otherwise.
I don't argue otherwise. However, Christianity today has cleaned up
its act. Islam hasn't.
John Savard
Mike Schilling
"Quadibloc" <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:6e3250f3-5821-4d8a...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
Certainly -- there hasn't been mass murder of Jews in Christian countries
since a bit before I was born.
Dan Goodman
> The difference is that the treatment of the Jews in majority-Christian
> lands has changed and the treatment of Jews and Christians in Muslim
> (and some others) lands has not changed very much at all.
It apparently has in Albania and in Turkey (where it's not exactly
perfect, but may be better in some ways than being Muslim in France or
Belgium.) I'm not sure what the situation is in Pakistan and
Bangladesh.
--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)
Will in New Haven
> Will in New Haven wrote:
>
> > The difference is that the treatment of the Jews in majority-Christian
> > lands has changed and the treatment of Jews and Christians in Muslim
> > (and some others) lands has not changed very much at all.
>
> It apparently has in Albania and in Turkey (where it's not exactly
> perfect, but may be better in some ways than being Muslim in France or
> Belgium.) I'm not sure what the situation is in Pakistan and
> Bangladesh.
The situation in the Islamic world as a whole has generally been that
some places, such as Turkey and Albania and some others today, are
very reasonable places for Jews to live. Others, too many to name
today, are impossible or horrible places for Jews to live. The whole
_catergory_ of Dhimihood may have been abolished in Turkey, which
would make it an example of improvement beyond the historical norm.
Otherwise, the changes have been local. Some places get better, others
regress.
In many cases, historically, the treatment of Christians and Jews has
been very similar. Recently, because of Israel, there are more
specific problems for the Jews. On the other hand, the Musliim
Brotherhood found Mullahs who would issue Fatwahs allowing that
Muslims could commit armed robbery on Coptic Christians in Egypt in
order to further their Islamic aims.
Of course, many Muslims are appalled when these things occur and I am
not discounting their sincerity and goodwill.
Quadibloc
wrote:
> "Quadibloc" <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
> news:6e3250f3-5821-4d8a...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> > I don't argue otherwise. However, Christianity today has cleaned up
> > its act. Islam hasn't.
>
> Certainly -- there hasn't been mass murder of Jews in Christian countries
> since a bit before I was born.
It _is_ true that the practice... went out with a bang, as it were.
However, excepting the Holocaust, pogroms did generally die out in
Europe after the Middle Ages ended, while still continuing for a
longer time in relatively backwards Russia.
Anti-Semitism was still certainly widespread in Europe and elsewhere
even in the nineteenth century.
Hitler's regime, however, was quite exceptional among those in the
Western world. It simply is not true that the Western world was, in
1933 or thereabouts, in such a state of barbarism that a thing like
the Holocaust would have been considered possible in other countries.
In fact, people didn't even believe it was possible in Germany.
The treatment of Jews in the Islamic world didn't come about because
one psychotic individual managed to surround himself with a gang of
toughs to impose this new behavior on the region. Unless the
"psychotic individual" in question is Muhammad.
It is useful to draw a distinction between what is aberrant behavior,
and hence atypical, and what is typical behavior.
John Savard
Quadibloc
<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> In many cases, historically, the treatment of Christians and Jews has
> been very similar. Recently, because of Israel, there are more
> specific problems for the Jews. On the other hand, the Musliim
> Brotherhood found Mullahs who would issue Fatwahs allowing that
> Muslims could commit armed robbery on Coptic Christians in Egypt in
> order to further their Islamic aims.
>
> Of course, many Muslims are appalled when these things occur and I am
> not discounting their sincerity and goodwill.
The trouble is, though, they probably aren't sincere enough to quietly
applaud if the U.S. were to send in troops to occupy Egypt, so as to
protect Coptic Christians from further mistreatment.
Of course, if the example of Iraq is any indication, that won't
happen, simply because they know full well they would send such a
small number of troops in, in a half-hearted attempt to keep the
country peaceful, that the Coptic Christians would be exposed to more
violence, not less.
John Savard
Mike Ash
<0d6df09f-248e-4464...@n19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 11:33 am, Will in New Haven
> <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
>
> > In many cases, historically, the treatment of Christians and Jews has
> > been very similar. Recently, because of Israel, there are more
> > specific problems for the Jews. On the other hand, the Musliim
> > Brotherhood found Mullahs who would issue Fatwahs allowing that
> > Muslims could commit armed robbery on Coptic Christians in Egypt in
> > order to further their Islamic aims.
> >
> > Of course, many Muslims are appalled when these things occur and I am
> > not discounting their sincerity and goodwill.
>
> The trouble is, though, they probably aren't sincere enough to quietly
> applaud if the U.S. were to send in troops to occupy Egypt, so as to
> protect Coptic Christians from further mistreatment.
Lots of completely sane non-Muslims aren't that sincere. It is possible
to legitimately think that something is bad, but not bad enough to
justify military intervention.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Robert Bannister
Might one ask what this has to do with written science fiction and why
you have cross posted this here? I thought trolling was done with a
hook, not a net.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
And how does their position compare with the treatment meted out to gypsies?
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> On Jul 1, 9:07 am, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> "Quadibloc" <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
>> news:6e3250f3-5821-4d8a...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>
>>> I don't argue otherwise. However, Christianity today has cleaned up
>>> its act. Islam hasn't.
>> Certainly -- there hasn't been mass murder of Jews in Christian countries
>> since a bit before I was born.
>
> It _is_ true that the practice... went out with a bang, as it were.
>
> However, excepting the Holocaust, pogroms did generally die out in
> Europe after the Middle Ages ended, while still continuing for a
> longer time in relatively backwards Russia.
>
> Anti-Semitism was still certainly widespread in Europe and elsewhere
> even in the nineteenth century.
>
> Hitler's regime, however, was quite exceptional among those in the
> Western world. It simply is not true that the Western world was, in
> 1933 or thereabouts, in such a state of barbarism that a thing like
> the Holocaust would have been considered possible in other countries.
> In fact, people didn't even believe it was possible in Germany.
While no-one would have expected a slaughter (which, by the way,
included a lot of non-Jews too), anti-Semitism was rife in America,
Britain and most of continental Europe at the time.
Pogrom is a Russian word, and such things were not common in the western
world - what they did was, having borrowed large sums of money (usury
being forbidden to Christians) and finding themselves unable or
unwilling to pay it back, they simply drove the Jews out of the country
- undoubtedly, this was backed up by lethal force and the end result may
well have been the same anyway, but still not quite the same as a pogrom.
--
Rob Bannister
Mike Schilling
>
> The trouble is, though, they probably aren't sincere enough to quietly
> applaud if the U.S. were to send in troops to occupy Egypt, so as to
> protect Coptic Christians from further mistreatment.
The way that Americans would have sincerely applauded if a foreign nation
had invaded to prevent lynching?
Quadibloc
wrote:
> The way that Americans would have sincerely applauded if a foreign nation
> had invaded to prevent lynching?
Yes, much of the mentality behind Islamic terrorism is not really some
evil due to Islam itself, but rather just a reflection of universal
human weakness.
If the United States were sincere about not meriting foreign
intervention, they should have taken all necessary measures to
eliminate segregation. Instead, they permitted this horrible cancer to
fester, from the decision to prematurely abandon Reconstruction up to
the early 1960s when the battle for legal equality for black people
was finally fought in earnest in the United States.
It is unfortunate, of course, that despite being in such an abysmal
moral state by permitting segregation on its soil, the United States,
ironically, was also the chief defender of the world's freedom. It was
imperfect, but Nazi Germany and Communist Russia were demonic.
At least the United States had within it the North as well as the
South. What countervailing forces are there in Egypt?
John Savard
James A. Donald
That is Islamic propaganda. Jews under Islam were subject to frequent
rape, robbery, and massacre. Over time, Jews gradually vanished under
Islam, while they prospered in Christendom. Not withstanding the
crimes some crusaders committed against Jews, if it had not been for
the crusaders, today there would be no Jews.
Initially there were far more Jews under Islam than under Christendom.
Today, far fewer, almost none. Jews under Islam have been steadily
diminishing, starting with the initial massacres and rapes by the
Prophet Mohammed, which massacres and rapes continue to this day.
http://www.churchisraelforum.com/the_dhimmi_jews_and_christians_under_islam.htm
James A. Donald
wrote:
> The treatment of Jews in the Islamic world didn't come about because
> one psychotic individual managed to surround himself with a gang of
> toughs to impose this new behavior on the region. Unless the
> "psychotic individual" in question is Muhammad.
>
> It is useful to draw a distinction between what is aberrant behavior,
> and hence atypical, and what is typical behavior.
Typical Islamic behavior, following the example of Mohammed, is a
moderate but steady level of mistreatment of Jews, which has resulted
over time in the steady diminuition of the number of Jews under Islam.
Terry Cross
> On Thu, 1 Jul 2010 14:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca>
From 1920, Baghdad became the capital of the British Mandate of
Mesopotamia and, after 1932, Baghdad was the capital of the Kingdom of
Iraq. Iraq was given formal independence in 1932 and increased
autonomy in 1946. The city's population grew from an estimated 145,000
in 1900 to 580,000 in 1950 of which 140,000 (nearly a quarter) were
Jewish. In the 1920s, Baghdad was 40 percent Jewish. Jews made up the
largest single community in the city and controlled up to 95 per cent
of business.[28] Baghdad was also home to many prominent Jewish
figures, such as Sassoon Eskell. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad
And how was the life of Jews among the Arabs?
They recalled a privileged life [in Baghdad]: elite schools, close
communities, two-storey houses with indoor courtyards and evening
promenades along the Tigris. Some of the best neighbourhoods were
almost entirely Jewish, because only Jews could afford the houses. "It
was a good life," I was told again and again. --
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1427687/The-terror-behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
Awe, isn't that a terrible persecution? Making them attend "elite
schools," forcing them to live in "close communities, two-storey
houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
Tigris."
Jews were so persecuted that "Some of the best neighbourhoods were
almost entirely Jewish, because only Jews could afford the houses."
You have been viewing the scene through the wrong end of the
telescope, James.
TCross
Terry Cross
> > Did Jews live better in the past under Islam than under Christianity?
>
> > It is difficult to compare fourteen centuries of Islam to twenty
> > centuries of Christianity, but it is generally true that while
> > discrimination occurred against Jews in the Islamic world on a regular
> > basis, they were rarely persecuted.
>
>
> That is Islamic propaganda. Jews under Islam were subject to frequent
> rape, robbery, and massacre. Over time, Jews gradually vanished under
> Islam, while they prospered in Christendom. Not withstanding the
> crimes some crusaders committed against Jews, if it had not been for
> the crusaders, today there would be no Jews.
>
> Initially there were far more Jews under Islam than under Christendom.
> Today, far fewer, almost none. Jews under Islam have been steadily
> diminishing, starting with the initial massacres and rapes by the
> Prophet Mohammed, which massacres and rapes continue to this day.
>
You are listening to Zionist propaganda. Hear what they say when they
are not trying to persuade you that they suffered terrible oppression:
They recalled a privileged life: elite schools, close communities, two-
storey houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
Tigris. Some of the best neighbourhoods were almost entirely Jewish,
because only Jews could afford the houses. "It was a good life," I was
told again and again.
Gosh, that kinda life must hurt all the way from silver cradle to
golden grave.
TCross
Emma
Terry Cross says...
>
>Awe, isn't that a terrible persecution? Making them attend "elite
>schools," forcing them to live in "close communities, two-storey
>houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
>Tigris."
>
>Jews were so persecuted that "Some of the best neighbourhoods were
>almost entirely Jewish, because only Jews could afford the houses."
>
We had a conversation about this a few years ago.
At that time you thought that Jews in Iraq lived
"happily among Arabs" and "there are yeshivas
and synagogues in Iraq."
Of course this happy, thriving scene was entirely fictional.
There were an estimated 40 Iraqi Jews in total
then and only *one* synagogue.
The posters in the thread should be aware that you
change the facts to fit your arguments.
--
Emma
http://www.britsattheirbest.com/
http://www.royal.gov.uk/
http://www.findmadeleine.com/home.html
Ralph
> In article<71ed8901-6e17-4400...@j7g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
> Terry Cross says...
>>
>> Awe, isn't that a terrible persecution? Making them attend "elite
>> schools," forcing them to live in "close communities, two-storey
>> houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
>> Tigris."
>>
>> Jews were so persecuted that "Some of the best neighbourhoods were
>> almost entirely Jewish, because only Jews could afford the houses."
>>
>
> We had a conversation about this a few years ago.
> At that time you thought that Jews in Iraq lived
> "happily among Arabs" and "there are yeshivas
> and synagogues in Iraq."
>
> Of course this happy, thriving scene was entirely fictional.
> There were an estimated 40 Iraqi Jews in total
> then and only *one* synagogue.
>
> The posters in the thread should be aware that you
> change the facts to fit your arguments.
>
>
Thanks Emma, most of us realized that Terry wasn't always truthful:-)))).
Ralph
You really hate the Jews, don't you?
hielan' laddie
(in article <w8WdnZ3CqeKWpbLR...@giganews.com>):
Isn't he a Matt Giwer clone?
hielan' laddie
(in article <w8WdnWLDqeJ-qrLR...@giganews.com>):
Please, please, please, someone who actually doesn't have him in their kf...
let me know if he ever, even once, accidentally allows a smidgen of truth to
contaminate the purity of his hate.
Terry Cross
> In article <71ed8901-6e17-4400-99c1-6ce1adf26...@j7g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
> Terry Cross says...
>
>
>
> >Awe, isn't that a terrible persecution? Making them attend "elite
> >schools," forcing them to live in "close communities, two-storey
> >houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
> >Tigris."
>
> >Jews were so persecuted that "Some of the best neighbourhoods were
> >almost entirely Jewish, because only Jews could afford the houses."
>
> We had a conversation about this a few years ago.
> At that time you thought that Jews in Iraq lived
> "happily among Arabs" and "there are yeshivas
> and synagogues in Iraq."
>
> Of course this happy, thriving scene was entirely fictional.
> There were an estimated 40 Iraqi Jews in total
> then and only *one* synagogue.
>
> The posters in the thread should be aware that you
> change the facts to fit your arguments.
Did you read that London telegraph article? How is it that they
report a Jewish population of 180,000, but you know better? --
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1427687/The-terror-behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
Read the whole thing, or have someone read it to you and explain the
details.
TCross
Terry Cross
Excellent!! Another one who cannot read.and would rather accept
Emma's baby food over the word of the London Telegraph. We knew Ralph
was a mental apple sauce, but this is delightful.
TCross
Terry Cross
wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:15:16 -0400, Ralph wrote
>
>
>
> > On 7/3/2010 4:11 AM, Emma wrote:
> >> ,
> >> Terry Cross says...
>
> >>> Awe, isn't that a terrible persecution? Making them attend "elite
> >>> schools," forcing them to live in "close communities, two-storey
> >>> houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
> >>> Tigris."
>
> >>> Jews were so persecuted that "Some of the best neighbourhoods were
> >>> almost entirely Jewish, because only Jews could afford the houses."
>
> >> We had a conversation about this a few years ago.
> >> At that time you thought that Jews in Iraq lived
> >> "happily among Arabs" and "there are yeshivas
> >> and synagogues in Iraq."
>
> >> Of course this happy, thriving scene was entirely fictional.
> >> There were an estimated 40 Iraqi Jews in total
> >> then and only *one* synagogue.
>
> >> The posters in the thread should be aware that you
> >> change the facts to fit your arguments.
>
> > Thanks Emma, most of us realized that Terry wasn't always truthful:-)))).
>
> Please, please, please, someone who actually doesn't have him in their kf...
> let me know if he ever, even once, accidentally allows a smidgen of truth to
> contaminate the purity of his hate.
Read it n' weep, laddie.
TCross
Terry Cross
>
> > Gosh, that kinda life must hurt all the way from silver cradle to
> > golden grave.
>
> > TCross
>
> You really hate the Jews, don't you?
You really lie, don't you? Have you read the article yet?
TCross
Terry Cross
wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:15:55 -0400, Ralph wrote
> >> -behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
>
> >> Gosh, that kinda life must hurt all the way from silver cradle to
> >> golden grave.
>
> >> TCross
>
> > You really hate the Jews, don't you?
>
> Isn't he a Matt Giwer clone?
And you haven't read the newspaper article either. But this is par
for the course. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1427687/The-terror-behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
TCross
Ralph
Newspaper article be damned! The fact is that you hate the Jews. The
evidence for this is in your past posting history.
Ralph
The article doesn't have a thing to do with whether or not you hate the
Jews. Your post shows you hate the Jews. You project your own hatreds on
others, just as you tried to do to me. I have absolutely nothing against
the Jewish people.
hielan' laddie
(in article <94KdnSPi9KvS_bLR...@giganews.com>):
And it appears that he really is a Matt Giwer clone, as I had thought.
Will in New Haven
> In article <71ed8901-6e17-4400-99c1-6ce1adf26...@j7g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
> Terry Cross says...
>
>
>
> >Awe, isn't that a terrible persecution? Making them attend "elite
> >schools," forcing them to live in "close communities, two-storey
> >houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
> >Tigris."
>
> >Jews were so persecuted that "Some of the best neighbourhoods were
> >almost entirely Jewish, because only Jews could afford the houses."
>
> We had a conversation about this a few years ago.
> At that time you thought that Jews in Iraq lived
> "happily among Arabs" and "there are yeshivas
> and synagogues in Iraq."
>
> Of course this happy, thriving scene was entirely fictional.
> There were an estimated 40 Iraqi Jews in total
> then and only *one* synagogue.
>
> The posters in the thread should be aware that you
> change the facts to fit your arguments.
I'm sorry to seem to be supporting Terry but there were CERTAINLY more
than forty Jews in Iraq at the point that the Iraqi government
expelled them. There might have been forty and one synagogue _after_
the expulsion.
I have a friend whose family left during the expulsion. They had been
very prosperous and well-regarded in Basra and had not, according to
the stories his family had told him, suffered persecution in the city.
They said that traveling in the rural areas could lead to problems
and, of course, they did not consider having the status of Dhimi to be
persecution, especially as it was a fairly mild form of the status.
This does not fit all that badly with James' description of "moderate"
persecution, as being a Dhimi was certainly not citizenship as we know
it. I disagree with his use of the word "constant" as it is clear that
the treatment of Jews and other Dhimis varied widely from time to time
and place to place.
When the expulsion order came out, they had to sell everything they
owned immediately. For other families that he knew that was ruinous
but Stan's grandfather's Muslim business associates bought him out at
full market value and that was enough to establish elsewhere.
--
Will in New Haven
Terry Cross
>
> > TCross
>
> Newspaper article be damned!
-- and the truth with it, I suppose. That'll keep your cult together
and the sheep in the fold.
TCross
randy
"Terry Cross"
> > And you haven't read the newspaper article either. But this is par
> > for the course.
> > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1427687/The...
> Newspaper article be damned!
"-- and the truth with it, I suppose. That'll keep your cult together
and the sheep in the fold."
This also in the article:
"At the time of the Ottoman empire," Kahtan explains, "the Jews' fate
depended on the governor's mood and whim and the amount of corruption that
he exercised. So, when there was a lull in the persecution - bless them -
they called it 'the golden age'. It was not a golden age. It was an age when
the Jews were persecuted less."
The fact Jews enjoyed periods of prosperity may have less to do with the
"encouragement" of the culture in which they lived than with the brilliance
of the Jews themselves, with their survival instinct, and with God's help
(not necessarily in that order).
randy
Will in New Haven
And I hate Terry like I hate top-posting and people who hurt dogs. But
he's correct, in broad outline, about Iraq. And he's superficially
correct about the life of Jews under al-Islam over the course of
history prior to the Twentieth Century.
Oddly enough, James Donald, whom I don't hate, is correct also, in a
subtler way. The treatment of Dhimis, even though it has often been
better than the Christian treatment of Jews in the Middle Ages, did
constitute persecution and the comparative superiority of this
treatment only holds up if it is compared to Europe in the Middle Ages
and a little after and in Russia much more recently. And it IS used as
propaganda by Islamic pleaders.
Emma
Terry Cross says...
>
>>
>> Of course this happy, thriving scene was entirely fictional.
>> There were an estimated 40 Iraqi Jews in total
>> then and only *one* synagogue.
>>
>> The posters in the thread should be aware that you
>> change the facts to fit your arguments.
>
>Did you read that London telegraph article? How is it that they
>report a Jewish population of 180,000, but you know better? --
>r-behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
>
That article actually confirms what I said.
There are not 180,000 Jews in Iraq today.
You insisted that there was a happy, thriving Jewish
community in Iraq *today*.
And btw, The Telegraph is not any sort of authority.
It's a newspaper. That's all. It carries all sorts of
opinions and some of those opinions contradict each
other.
Emma
Will in New Haven says...
>
>
>I'm sorry to seem to be supporting Terry but there were CERTAINLY more
>than forty Jews in Iraq at the point that the Iraqi government
>expelled them. There might have been forty and one synagogue _after_
>the expulsion.
Yes, there are about 40 today. That was my point.
Terry likes to pretend that there is a massive Jewish community in
Baghdad today living in the lap of luxury.
>I have a friend whose family left during the expulsion. They had been
>very prosperous and well-regarded in Basra and had not, according to
>the stories his family had told him, suffered persecution in the city.
>They said that traveling in the rural areas could lead to problems
>and, of course, they did not consider having the status of Dhimi to be
>persecution, especially as it was a fairly mild form of the status.
>
>This does not fit all that badly with James' description of "moderate"
>persecution, as being a Dhimi was certainly not citizenship as we know
>it. I disagree with his use of the word "constant" as it is clear that
>the treatment of Jews and other Dhimis varied widely from time to time
>and place to place.
>
>When the expulsion order came out, they had to sell everything they
>owned immediately. For other families that he knew that was ruinous
>but Stan's grandfather's Muslim business associates bought him out at
>full market value and that was enough to establish elsewhere.
Yes, experiences differ. There are certainly plenty of horror
stories too.
Emma
Terry Cross says...
>
>
>Excellent!! Another one who cannot read.and would rather accept
>Emma's baby food over the word of the London Telegraph.
I love this: "...the WORD of the London Telegraph"
It's a newspaper, Terry. A **NEWSPAPER**, written by journalists!
It might be true; it might not.
BTW,we also have The Sun newspaper and The Daily Mirror.
I'd love to see you insist that their content is gospel too!
How about The News of the World?! Now that's a good one!
If you can find *one* word that's actually true in that rag,
then I will be very surprised!
Terry Cross
When Whites are rich while Jews and Blacks are poor, it is always
because Whites oppress Jews and Blacks. But when Jews are rich while
others are poor, it is because Jews are more clever. Why is that,
Randy?
TCross
Terry Cross
> In article <c48faa18-f31c-44c1-9ff9-fe927a393...@m40g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
> Terry Cross says...
>
>
>
> >> Of course this happy, thriving scene was entirely fictional.
> >> There were an estimated 40 Iraqi Jews in total
> >> then and only *one* synagogue.
>
> >> The posters in the thread should be aware that you
> >> change the facts to fit your arguments.
>
> >Did you read that London telegraph article? How is it that they
> >report a Jewish population of 180,000, but you know better? --
> >r-behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
>
> That article actually confirms what I said.
> There are not 180,000 Jews in Iraq today.
> You insisted that there was a happy, thriving Jewish
> community in Iraq *today*.
Nope. And you deleted the context with what I really did say. Do you
think you are clever?
TCross
Emma
Terry Cross says...
>
>>
>Nope. And you deleted the context with what I really did say. Do you
>think you are clever?
>
You misunderstand. I was referring to a conversation we
had a *few years ago* about the situation for Iraqi
Jews. I was using that conversation to show that you
don't really care for facts very much and therefore,
posters here should be wary of anything you say.
I mean, you even deny the Holocaust...
Will in New Haven
> In article <a6d48350-1c9b-46fa-bf5b-a37f6fc3a...@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> Will in New Haven says...
>
>
>
> >I'm sorry to seem to be supporting Terry but there were CERTAINLY more
> >than forty Jews in Iraq at the point that the Iraqi government
> >expelled them. There might have been forty and one synagogue _after_
> >the expulsion.
>
> Yes, there are about 40 today. That was my point.
> Terry likes to pretend that there is a massive Jewish community in
> Baghdad today living in the lap of luxury.
That is so far-out that I didn't even see it in his argument. This
thread was originally about the _history_ of the treatment of Jews
under al-Islam. The fact that Terry is an asshole should not obscure
the fact that he made a few factual statements earlier in the thread.
Any more than those factual statements should obscure the fact that he
is an asshole.
--
Will in New Haven
>
>
>
randy
"Terry Cross"
randy
> This also in the article:
> "At the time of the Ottoman empire," Kahtan explains, "the Jews' fate
> depended on the governor's mood and whim and the amount of corruption that
> he exercised. So, when there was a lull in the persecution - bless them -
> they called it 'the golden age'. It was not a golden age. It was an age
> when
> the Jews were persecuted less."
> The fact Jews enjoyed periods of prosperity may have less to do with the
> "encouragement" of the culture in which they lived than with the
> brilliance
> of the Jews themselves, with their survival instinct, and with God's help
> (not necessarily in that order).
"When Whites are rich while Jews and Blacks are poor, it is always
because Whites oppress Jews and Blacks. But when Jews are rich while
others are poor, it is because Jews are more clever. Why is that,
Randy?"
No, I think *anybody* will be more clever when they simply have to survive.
Beyond that, I think there is a certain "genius" to the Jews that come from
a good blood line (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob....), and from steeping their
culture in the word of God. Christians enjoy the same advantages over time,
whether red, white, or black, or brown.
The reason Jews may express an unfair advantage in the "innocent" department
is because they are not Christian, and yet have a strong moral code. They
feel no responsibility to pay respect to Christian morality, and defend
their own principles of justice and compassion.
As Jews, they basically express a bias towards their own particular
ethnicity, and do not feel the need to honor a specifically-Christian
morality. In fact they often denounce Christian morality as hypocritical and
a cover for abuse of minorities.
On the other hand, Christians are biased as well towards their own religion,
and towards their own particular ethnic group. And they certainly sometimes
do not even practise their own moral code.
I do not agree with the complete "innocence" of the Jews, nor of the
Israelis. Nor do I believe in the total innocence of Christianity,
obviously. But we do need to note where there is in fact a strong moral code
being practised, and not settle for the use of exceptions to blame the
majority.
randy
hielan' laddie
(in article
<53b96035-c7aa-4494...@x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>):
> On Jul 3, 2:04ï¿œpm, Emma <e...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <a6d48350-1c9b-46fa-bf5b-a37f6fc3a...@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>> Will in New Haven says...
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'm sorry to seem to be supporting Terry but there were CERTAINLY more
>>> than forty Jews in Iraq at the point that the Iraqi government
>>> expelled them. There might have been forty and one synagogue _after_
>>> the expulsion.
>>
>> Yes, there are about 40 today. That was my point.
>> Terry likes to pretend that there is a massive Jewish community in
>> Baghdad today living in the lap of luxury.
>
> That is so far-out that I didn't even see it in his argument.
That was part of the first post of his that I saw, and was in fact what
caused me to instantly drop him into the kf. Anyone who could actually post
_that_ kind of total idiocy was obviously completely insane and/or a total
and completely liar, and absolutely nothing that he said was to be taken
seriously in either case.
> This
> thread was originally about the _history_ of the treatment of Jews
> under al-Islam. The fact that Terry is an asshole should not obscure
> the fact that he made a few factual statements earlier in the thread.
I must have missed those. The big bright glare of the utter bullshit that he
posted obscured any facts.
> Any more than those factual statements should obscure the fact that he
> is an asshole.
That came through very, very, VERY clearly.
Ralph
Whoa here, hot-rod? You accuse others of doing what you do on a regular
basis? What a hypocrite!
Ralph
> In article<abada9ea-1900-475e...@p22g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
> Terry Cross says...
>>
>>>
>> Nope. And you deleted the context with what I really did say. Do you
>> think you are clever?
>>
>
> You misunderstand. I was referring to a conversation we
> had a *few years ago* about the situation for Iraqi
> Jews. I was using that conversation to show that you
> don't really care for facts very much and therefore,
> posters here should be wary of anything you say.
>
> I mean, you even deny the Holocaust...
>
>
Well blown me away! You mean that this bitch is a Holocaust denier? To
me there is nothing more despicable than one of these worthless pieces
of shit. My uncle was with with a Quartermaster's Grave Registration
Company in Patton's Third Army. He would vehemently disagree with your
friends who sit here 60-70 years later, typing bullshit and lies into
their computers.
Ralph
> On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 15:00:08 -0400, Will in New Haven wrote
> (in article
> <53b96035-c7aa-4494...@x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>):
>
I'm about ready to send the lying bitch to the KF myself.
Ralph
Clipping posts to be able to give a reply is a chicken-shit way to
debate. It really doesn't make any difference to me anymore since you
are too low to even have an honest opinion.
People like you come closer to making me think that there is an
after-life because only the devil would create something like you.
By the way, the many times I've told you to 'fuck yourself' I now
understand that is a factual statement because I can't see any man doing it.
Ralph
Hi Will, I was not addressing the article, right or wrong. The article
has nothing to do with the fact that Terry is a frigging fruitcake, who
despises Jews.
Terry Cross
How can you call it "persecution" if the allegedly persecuted minority
is richer than average and living in the best housing? What, the
population failed to build them palaces and wash their feet?
Suffering persecution is an article of faith with the Jews all over
the world. Even the richest Jews of America with 20-room houses and a
dozen servants whine about their persecution.
TCross
Terry Cross
> > Terry Cross says...
>
> >> Nope. And you deleted the context with what I really did say. Do you
> >> think you are clever?
>
> > You misunderstand. I was referring to a conversation we
> > had a *few years ago* about the situation for Iraqi
> > Jews. I was using that conversation to show that you
> > don't really care for facts very much and therefore,
> > posters here should be wary of anything you say.
>
> > I mean, you even deny the Holocaust...
>
> Well blown me away! You mean that this bitch is a Holocaust denier? To
> me there is nothing more despicable
Here is Ralph's true religion, and Ralph finds infidels utterly
despicable. No doubt the whole story has been a fine source of wealth
to Ralph and his relatives. As Holocaust promoters are known to say
privately, there is no business like Shoah business.
TCross
hielan' laddie
(in article <R8SdnRDNWdBaBbLR...@giganews.com>):
> On 7/3/2010 2:21 PM, Emma wrote:
>> In article<abada9ea-1900-475e...@p22g2000pre.googlegroups.com
>> >,
>> Terry Cross says...
>>>
>>>>
>>> Nope. And you deleted the context with what I really did say. Do you
>>> think you are clever?
>>>
>>
>> You misunderstand. I was referring to a conversation we
>> had a *few years ago* about the situation for Iraqi
>> Jews. I was using that conversation to show that you
>> don't really care for facts very much and therefore,
>> posters here should be wary of anything you say.
>>
>> I mean, you even deny the Holocaust...
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Well blown me away! You mean that this bitch is a Holocaust denier?
Well, yes. I said a while back that he was a Matt Giwer clone. Giwer is one
of the more famous HDs on usenet.
> To
> me there is nothing more despicable than one of these worthless pieces
> of shit. My uncle was with with a Quartermaster's Grave Registration
> Company in Patton's Third Army. He would vehemently disagree with your
> friends who sit here 60-70 years later, typing bullshit and lies into
> their computers.
One of _my_ uncles was among the first British troops into Bergen-Belsen.
Ralph
I think Ralph's true religion is derision of pieces of shit just like you.
There isn't any need for Holocaust promoters, because the sorry event is
etched in stone. It is there because of people like my uncle who were
eye-witnesses to this carnage, not wordsmiths in the 21stCentury sitting
on their ass with nothing more to do than think up non-existent
conspiracies.
Prejudice is a learned behavior. I learned this when I was a teen-ager.
In our home there was never anything said about the Jews, good or bad.
They were just people. I found my Dad's 1929 high school annual and had
taken it to him to learn about his life. Understand, my father came from
an era in the South where prejudice, especially against blacks, was
rampant. As he was going through his annual he pointed to a picture of
this boy and said, "This is Harry Goldstein. Goldy was one of my closest
friends.
That was the reason we had no prejudice against Jews.
Cross, you are a perfect example for the absence of the Jewish god. He
couldn't have created anyone much lower than you.
Ralph
I know that you don't celebrate a holiday tomorrow, but it is good day
to remember all of the brave soldiers who only came home in a casket.
Mike Schilling
"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:16ds26hkc1809s4tl...@4ax.com...
>> Did Jews live better in the past under Islam than under Christianity?
>>
>> It is difficult to compare fourteen centuries of Islam to twenty
>> centuries of Christianity, but it is generally true that while
>> discrimination occurred against Jews in the Islamic world on a regular
>> basis, they were rarely persecuted.
>>
>> http://www.projetaladin.org/en/40-questions-40-answers/about-jews-muslims-and-christians.html
>
> That is Islamic propaganda. Jews under Islam were subject to frequent
> rape, robbery, and massacre.
Unlike Jews in Christian Europe? God, you're a moron.
Mike Schilling
"randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:vMidnWu094_l6rLR...@wavecable.com...
No fair reading the whole article.
>
Mike Schilling
"Will in New Haven" <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:ecb9872a-d108-40aa...@t10g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> Oddly enough, James Donald, whom I don't hate, is correct also, in a
> subtler way. The treatment of Dhimis, even though it has often been
> better than the Christian treatment of Jews in the Middle Ages, did
> constitute persecution and the comparative superiority of this
> treatment only holds up if it is compared to Europe in the Middle Ages
> and a little after
Well after. You're forgetting something pretty obvious.
James A. Donald
> From 1920, Baghdad became the capital of the British Mandate of
> Mesopotamia and, after 1932, Baghdad was the capital of the Kingdom of
> Iraq. Iraq was given formal independence in 1932 and increased
> autonomy in 1946. The city's population grew from an estimated 145,000
> in 1900 to 580,000 in 1950 of which 140,000 (nearly a quarter) were
> Jewish. In the 1920s, Baghdad was 40 percent Jewish. Jews made up the
> largest single community in the city and controlled up to 95 per cent
> of business.[28] Baghdad was also home to many prominent Jewish
> figures, such as Sassoon Eskell. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad
What you are telling me as that when Christians ruled Baghdad, Jews
fled to Baghdad, and when they stopped ruling Baghdad, Jews fled from
Baghdad.
James A. Donald
> are not trying to persuade you that they suffered terrible oppression:
>
> They recalled a privileged life: elite schools, close communities, two-
> storey houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
> Tigris. Some of the best neighbourhoods were almost entirely Jewish,
> because only Jews could afford the houses. "It was a good life," I was
> told again and again.
It was a good life when the BRITISH ruled Baghdad.
Terry Cross
wrote:
The Ottomans oppressed not just the Jews, but everyone else as well --
a fact that is true of most governments almost everywhere most of the
time. When the Jews worked for the government of Soviet Russia, they
were instrumental in bringing about the deliberate famine of the
Ukraine, killing tens of millions of people And now that Israel is a
country, we have the opportunity to observe the wonderful generosity
of an Israeli government toward the Muslims -- and it ain't that
great.
TCross
Mike Schilling
"Terry Cross" <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ecc5f0a5-b490-488c...@x18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Yeah, when you're caught flat-footed in a lie, you need to change the
subject as fast as you can.
Michael A. Terrell
Ralph wrote:
>
> I know that you don't celebrate a holiday tomorrow, but it is good day
> to remember all of the brave soldiers who only came home in a casket.
Any day is a good day to remember fallen soldiers.
--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
James A. Donald
> And I hate Terry like I hate top-posting and people who
> hurt dogs. But he's correct, in broad outline, about Iraq.
> And he's superficially correct about the life of Jews under
> al-Islam over the course of history prior to the Twentieth
> Century.
No he is not correct about life in Iraq. When the British
ruled Mesopotamia, there was no Iraq. The golden age he
describes occurred under colonial rule.
Nor is he broadly correct about life in Dar Al Islam. The
rate of rape and massacre of religious minorities has always
been roughly similar to what it is now, except during the
period of christian colonial dominion from 1830 to 1960 - and
it is pretty high right now.
Terry Cross
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:55:50 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>
> > From 1920, Baghdad became the capital of the British Mandate of
> > Mesopotamia and, after 1932, Baghdad was the capital of the Kingdom of
> > Iraq. Iraq was given formal independence in 1932 and increased
> > autonomy in 1946. The city's population grew from an estimated 145,000
> > in 1900 to 580,000 in 1950 of which 140,000 (nearly a quarter) were
> > Jewish. In the 1920s, Baghdad was 40 percent Jewish. Jews made up the
> > largest single community in the city and controlled up to 95 per cent
> > of business.[28] Baghdad was also home to many prominent Jewish
>
> What you are telling me as that when Christians ruled Baghdad, Jews
> fled to Baghdad, and when they stopped ruling Baghdad, Jews fled from
> Baghdad.
"Fled" to Baghdad? Where from?
Iraq was the center of Judaism for many centuries while it was
ostensibly under Islamic rule.
The text also tells you that Jews took 90% of the wealth of that
country. Wealth is power, and that tells you the Jews, not the
British, ruled Iraq.
The Talmudic Academies in Babylonia, also known as the Geonic
Academies, were the center for Jewish scholarship and the development
of Jewish law in Mesopotamia from roughly 589 CE to 1038 CE (Hebrew
dates: 4349 AM to 4798 AM). The key work of these academies was the
compilation of the Babylonian Talmud, started by Rav Ashi and Ravina,
two leaders of the Babylonian Jewish community, around the year 550.
Editorial work by the Savoraim or Rabbanan Savoraei (post-Talmudic
rabbis), continued on this text for the next 250 years; much of the
text did not reach its final form until around 700.[1] The two most
famous academies were located at Sura and Pumbedita; the Sura Academy
was originally dominant, but its authority waned towards the end of
the Geonic period and the Pumbedita academy's Gaonate gained
ascendancy.[2] Major yeshivot were also located at Nehardea and
Mahuza.
For the Jews of late antiquity and the early Middle Ages, the yeshivot
of Babylonia served much the same function as the ancient Sanhedrin,
as a council of Jewish religious authorities. The academies were
founded in pre-Islamic Babylonia under the Zoroastrian Sassanid
dynasty and were located not far from the Sassanid capital of
Ctesiphon, which at that time was the largest city in the world.[3]
The academies subsequently operated for four hundred years under the
Islamic caliphate after the conquest of Persia in the 7th Century. --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmudic_Academies_in_Babylonia
Continue reading.
TCross
Terry Cross
wrote:
> "Terry Cross" <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
When everyone is oppressed, exclusive attention on "oppression of the
Jews" is racist. How would you expect the Jews to be living in
perfect liberty while everyone else is oppressed?
That is not a change of subject -- that is a natural fact.
TCross
Mike Schilling
"Terry Cross" <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9156b5dd-67dc-4afc...@k1g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
That's funny. I would have thought that you were an expert on racism, but
you're being even dumber than usual.
James A. Donald
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 3, 4:51 pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 23:55:50 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> >
> > > From 1920, Baghdad became the capital of the British Mandate of
> > > Mesopotamia and, after 1932, Baghdad was the capital of the Kingdom of
> > > Iraq. Iraq was given formal independence in 1932 and increased
> > > autonomy in 1946. The city's population grew from an estimated 145,000
> > > in 1900 to 580,000 in 1950 of which 140,000 (nearly a quarter) were
> > > Jewish. In the 1920s, Baghdad was 40 percent Jewish. Jews made up the
> > > largest single community in the city and controlled up to 95 per cent
> > > of business.[28] Baghdad was also home to many prominent Jewish
> > > figures, such as Sassoon Eskell. --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad
> > What you are telling me as that when Christians ruled Baghdad, Jews
> > fled to Baghdad, and when they stopped ruling Baghdad, Jews fled from
> > Baghdad.
> "Fled" to Baghdad? Where from?
From places further from British power.
The period where Jews prospered in Islam is precisely the period when
Christians dominated Islam - the period from 1830 to 1960 - and much
of the justification for colonial rule was Islamic attacks on
religious minorities. There would be some incident of massacre and
rape of religious minority X, A colonial power would announce that
they were moving in to protect religious minority X, and having moved
in, would decline to leave.
> Iraq was the center of Judaism for many centuries while it was
> ostensibly under Islamic rule.
Iraq has not been in existence for many centuries.
> The Talmudic Academies in Babylonia, also known as the Geonic
> Academies, were the center for Jewish scholarship and the development
> of Jewish law in Mesopotamia from roughly 589 CE to 1038 CE
In other words, after the Muslims conquered, diminished and vanished.
James A. Donald
> > rape, robbery, and massacre.
"Mike Schilling"
> Unlike Jews in Christian Europe? God, you're a moron.
Remember that originally there were vastly more Jews under Islamic
rule, than under Christian rule. Over time, numbers reversed.
>
Mike Schilling
"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:24pv26pmfq9jhi7m4...@4ax.com...
There are few Jews living under Islam, because they almost all emigrated to
Israel. There are few Jews living in Europe because the Nazis murdered
them. Most people know that.
James A. Donald
> We had a conversation about this a few years ago.
> At that time you thought that Jews in Iraq lived
> "happily among Arabs" and "there are yeshivas
> and synagogues in Iraq."
Jews lived happily among the arabs back when the British restrained
arab pogroms by bombing arabs with poison gas from high altitude.
James A. Donald
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/142
7687/The-terror-behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
: : She and her husband saw their friends being hanged
: : in the main square of Baghdad; in the early
: : Seventies, they had all their property confiscated
: : and were forced to flee the country
Colonial dominion faded in the late fifties, early sixties.
Cause and effect. As Christian power diminish, islamic
persecution increases.
James A. Donald
> >> > robbery, and massacre.
"Mike Schilling"
> >> Unlike Jews in Christian Europe? God, you're a moron.
James A. Donald:
> > Remember that originally there were vastly more Jews
> > under Islamic rule, than under Christian rule. Over
> > time, numbers reversed.
"Mike Schilling"
> There are few Jews living under Islam, because they almost
> all emigrated to Israel.
80% of Jews are Ashkenazi - which is to say, descended from
those few Jews who got as far away from Islam as possible.
Genetic evidence suggests that the founding population
contained about one hundred and fifty fertile females, four
hundred males.
Terry Cross
Ah, are you referring to the time they gassed the Christian Kurds and
blamed it on Saddam?
TCross
Mike Schilling
"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:89tv26dba8s91emco...@4ax.com...
> "James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
>> >> > Jews under Islam were subject to frequent rape,
>> >> > robbery, and massacre.
>
> "Mike Schilling"
>> >> Unlike Jews in Christian Europe? God, you're a moron.
>
> James A. Donald:
>> > Remember that originally there were vastly more Jews
>> > under Islamic rule, than under Christian rule. Over
>> > time, numbers reversed.
>
> "Mike Schilling"
>> There are few Jews living under Islam, because they almost
>> all emigrated to Israel.
>
> 80% of Jews are Ashkenazi - which is to say, descended from
> those few Jews who got as far away from Islam as possible.
As late as the 17th century, there were more Sepahrdim than Ashkenazis.
That's after a millennium of living under Islam.
James A. Donald
> > 80% of Jews are Ashkenazi - which is to say, descended from
> > those few Jews who got as far away from Islam as possible.
"Mike Schilling"
> As late as the 17th century, there were more Sepahrdim than Ashkenazis.
If true, and no one back then was taking a census, not a good
advertisement for Islam, considering that originally there were only a
few hundred Ashkenazis.
James A. Donald
> > Jews lived happily among the arabs back when the British restrained
> > arab pogroms by bombing arabs with poison gas from high altitude.
Terry Cross
> Ah, are you referring to the time they gassed the Christian Kurds and
> blamed it on Saddam?
Very few Jews were living in Iraq by the time of Saddam.
Wombat
Between WW1 and WW2 the Royal Air Force was used to keep the natives
in order in Mesopotamia and the North West Frontier. In 1920 it is
believed by some that poison gas was used. Please get an education.
Wombat
Terry Cross
Just to clarify -- the three parties in my statement above are Us/
Britain, Iraq, and the Kurds. No allegation should be inferred about
the Jews.
Ralph
> On Jul 3, 6:15 am, Ralph<mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 7/3/2010 4:11 AM, Emma wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> In article<71ed8901-6e17-4400-99c1-6ce1adf26...@j7g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Terry Cross says...
>>
>>>> Awe, isn't that a terrible persecution? Making them attend "elite
>>>> schools," forcing them to live in "close communities, two-storey
>>>> houses with indoor courtyards and evening promenades along the
>>>> Tigris."
>>
>>>> almost entirely Jewish, because only Jews could afford the houses."
>>
>>> At that time you thought that Jews in Iraq lived
>>> "happily among Arabs" and "there are yeshivas
>>> and synagogues in Iraq."
>>
>>> There were an estimated 40 Iraqi Jews in total
>>> then and only *one* synagogue.
>>
>>> The posters in the thread should be aware that you
>>> change the facts to fit your arguments.
>>
>> Thanks Emma, most of us realized that Terry wasn't always truthful:-)))).
>
> Excellent!! Another one who cannot read.and would rather accept
> Emma's baby food over the word of the London Telegraph. We knew Ralph
> was a mental apple sauce, but this is delightful.
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1427687/The-terror-behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
>
> TCross
Gee Terry, I consider you to be untruthful, regardless of the current
conversational topic. You are fundamentally dishonest and you have shown
it many times.
Darwin123
> Did Jews live better in the past under Islam than under Christianity?
>
> It is difficult to compare fourteen centuries of Islam to twenty
> centuries of Christianity, but it is generally true that while
> discrimination occurred against Jews in the Islamic world on a regular
> basis, they were rarely persecuted.
>
>
> TCross
There was persecution. Miamondes said that the Moslems were worse
than the Christians in persecution. However, he didn't experience
Christianity at its homicidal worst.
The Moslems ahd no mass executions of women as witches. There
were no admissions of sorcery forced by torture. There were few
burnings, if any, of sorcerers and witches. Basically, people could be
imprisoned or executed because of "magic." Religious practice was
persecuted, yes.
Among Moslems, there was no trial held where the witness claimed
to see the accused as an "astral image." This occurred during the
Salem witch trials. Note that the Salem witch trials were mild
compared to the earlier witch trials in Germany and Scotland. Some of
the witches may have been involved in "real" crimes (abortions, etc.).
However, prosecution at Christian witch trials usually relied in a
belief in magic. The accused often had very little association with
the crime beyond magical inference.
King James I had women burned at the stake because the weather
was bad. You know King James I, compiler of the King James Bible?
One can argue that the "convert or die" atitude of Islam is
similar to witch prosecution. However, these people died because of
their religious beliefs. Moslems in general, like Jews in general, did
not believe in the reality of demonic magic. There were superstitions
among the peasants, as well as lynchings by common people who believed
in witchcraft.
The religious ministries in Islam didn't quite swallow the
superstitions. However, some very serious persecution of "pagans" and
"heretics" did occur. Occasionally, Moslems did seriously persecute
Christians and Jews.
Mongolian leaders, often Moslem, sometimes demanded young boys and
girls as annual payment. A lot of sexual abuse occurred under Moslem
reign. This was very bad. Jews were executed under some Moslem
regimes. They did get nasty.
Yet, compare this with the burning and torture of women, men and
children done by Christians. Compare that with the torture and killing
of Indians in the New world.
Emma
> One can argue that the "convert or die" atitude of Islam is
>similar to witch prosecution. However, these people died because of
>their religious beliefs.
Oh. That's alright then :-)
I thought we were talking about religious beliefs btw.
I'm not sure why you've changed the subject to witchcraft.
> Moslems in general, like Jews in general, did
>not believe in the reality of demonic magic. There were superstitions
>among the peasants, as well as lynchings by common people who believed
>in witchcraft.
Have you heard the current case in Saudi... a non-Saudi
was making a pilgrimage to Mecca and he was recognized
by the religious police from his TV appearances (he is
an astrologer on Lebanese TV). They arrested him, charged him with
witchcraft and he has been sentenced to death by beheading.
--
Emma
http://www.britsattheirbest.com/
http://www.royal.gov.uk/
http://www.findmadeleine.com/home.html
Darwin123
> In article <f39ccf28-b351-40c2-a761-602b70151...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > One can argue that the "convert or die" atitude of Islam is
> >similar to witch prosecution. However, these people died because of
> >their religious beliefs.
>
> Oh. That's alright then :-)
> I thought we were talking about religious beliefs btw.
> I'm not sure why you've changed the subject to witchcraft.
implication is that Moslem countries don't persecute people the way
Christians used to. I was agreeing the Moslems haven't persecuted
people to the same degree as Christian countries.
I'll make some replies and then I'll stop.
The implication of the OP was that Christianity was somehow more
tolerant or rational than Christianity.
>
>
> Have you heard the current case in Saudi... a non-Saudi
> was making a pilgrimage to Mecca and he was recognized
> by the religious police from his TV appearances (he is
> an astrologer on Lebanese TV). They arrested him, charged him with
> witchcraft and he has been sentenced to death by beheading.
>
by the victim.
The is a case of a woman in Iran who was sentenced to death
because a mullah was sexually aroused. The woman was illiterate. This
comes a bit closer. The mullah believed she had real magic powers.
Still, there were no mass
Emma
Darwin123 says...
>
> I apologize. I was responding to the word "persecution." The
>implication is that Moslem countries don't persecute people the way
>Christians used to. I was agreeing the Moslems haven't persecuted
>people to the same degree as Christian countries.
> I'll make some replies and then I'll stop.
>The implication of the OP was that Christianity was somehow more
>tolerant or rational than Christianity.
The OP is a Holocaust denier. She
denies that millions of Jews were killed.
This thread (and many others!) are always
designed to deny that Jews were/are persecuted.
She really doesn't care about facts.
As soon as she loses one thread, she leaves it
and begins another. She's been doing this for years.
She also thinks 9/11 was an inside job (American
Jews and the Israeli government).
Basically, she is unbalanced. Insane.
>> Have you heard the current case in Saudi... a non-Saudi
>> was making a pilgrimage to Mecca and he was recognized
>> by the religious police from his TV appearances (he is
>> an astrologer on Lebanese TV). They arrested him, charged him with
>> witchcraft and he has been sentenced to death by beheading.
>>
>He isn't being beheaded because he projected an astral image seen only
>by the victim.
He has been convicted of sorcery which is the
same thing as witchcraft, isn't it?
Where do you get this definition of witchcraft btw?
"An astral image seen only by the victim"?
Terry Cross
> In article <1c3483d4-e7ff-4213-a754-19e39bf5c...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
From the Hebrew Bible, in which Moses was JUST KIDDING when he wrote:
Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
TCross
Emma
Terry Cross says...
>
>On Jul 7, 12:33=A0pm, Emma <e...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> In article <1c3483d4-e7ff-4213-a754-19e39bf5c...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.c=
>>
>> He has been convicted of sorcery which is the
>> same thing as witchcraft, isn't it?
>>
>> Where do you get this definition of witchcraft btw?
>> "An astral image seen only by the victim"?
>
>From the Hebrew Bible, in which Moses was JUST KIDDING when he wrote:
>
>Exodus 22:18
>Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
>
Did you even bother to read the conversation?
Ralph
Sorry Terry, that came from the Covenant Code and Moses didn't write
that either.
Ralph
> In article<49aec3c5-db0f-4c8d...@p11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Terry Cross says...
>>
>> On Jul 7, 12:33=A0pm, Emma<e...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>> In article<1c3483d4-e7ff-4213-a754-19e39bf5c...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.c=
>>>
>>> He has been convicted of sorcery which is the
>>> same thing as witchcraft, isn't it?
>>>
>>> Where do you get this definition of witchcraft btw?
>>> "An astral image seen only by the victim"?
>>
>> From the Hebrew Bible, in which Moses was JUST KIDDING when he wrote:
>>
>> Exodus 22:18
>> Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
>>
>
> Did you even bother to read the conversation?
Even if she read it she still got it wrong:-)).
Terry Cross
Did you know Moses personally, Ralph? Or did you just inherit his
papers after his death?
In any case, Exodus 22 is a part of the Holy Hebrew Bible, part of the
if-it-says-it-you-do-it scripture of the Jews.
TCross
Ralph
If he had written any papers it would have been nice to have inherited them.
> In any case, Exodus 22 is a part of the Holy Hebrew Bible, part of the
> if-it-says-it-you-do-it scripture of the Jews.
>
> TCross
It is definitely a part of the Hebrew scriptures and it was definitely
from the Covenant Code. So, to the point of your reply, Moses was not
kidding as he didn't write it.
James A. Donald
> than the Christians in persecution. However, he didn't experience
> Christianity at its homicidal worst.
Because Christianity at is homicidal worst left lots of people to tell
the tale. Of Islam at its homicidal worst, we have only Islamic
accounts.
> The Moslems ahd no mass executions of women as witches.
Christianity never had "mass executions of women as witches". Every
witch trial was individually tried, and each trial was bitterly
controversial, and witch trials are small stuff compared with Muslims
stoning women to death and so forth.
Robert Bannister
In south western Germany alone more than 3,000 witches were executed
between 1560 and 1680. This may not be actual mass execution, but it's
getting close as no-one knows the total number of victims.
--
Rob Bannister
livvy
> On Jul 3, 10:46 am, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Terry Cross"
>
> > > > And you haven't read the newspaper article either. But this is par
> > > > for the course.
> > > >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1427687/The...
> > > Newspaper article be damned!
>
> > "-- and the truth with it, I suppose. That'll keep your cult together
> > and the sheep in the fold."
>
> > This also in the article:
> > "At the time of the Ottoman empire," Kahtan explains, "the Jews' fate
> > depended on the governor's mood and whim and the amount of corruption that
> > he exercised. So, when there was a lull in the persecution - bless them -
> > they called it 'the golden age'. It was not a golden age. It was an age when
> > the Jews were persecuted less."
>
> > The fact Jews enjoyed periods of prosperity may have less to do with the
> > "encouragement" of the culture in which they lived than with the brilliance
> > of the Jews themselves, with their survival instinct, and with God's help
> > (not necessarily in that order).
>
> When Whites are rich while Jews and Blacks are poor, it is always
> because Whites oppress Jews and Blacks. But when Jews are rich while
> others are poor, it is because Jews are more clever. Why is that,
> Randy?
>
> TCross- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Jesusgod, what do you want? Why are you here? The history is clear in current life, probably (to use a fave word of one of my H.S. teachers, a nun, of all things....inculcated. ) The history is pretty much a given.....my neighborhood history is mostly Catholic and Jewish. I longed to go to Hebrew School on Thursday after school, my Jewish friends wanted to go to CCD classes with me.
Step away.....your name never comes up in our discussions.
Post all the articles from whomever you'd like, none have a thing to
do with people. Go away. The "Ottoman Empire"....get outta
town....Eddie Izzard....furniture. Get a heart, get a soul, get a
life....get out there. Go to some " itisallaboutmyhateandaingst"
site, I'm sure there are many out there. There are many here who
would join you in your ....thing.
Terry Cross
Source? Surely you have a source.
The Jews certainly executed witches. For example, in the book
Sanhedrin 45b, the Talmud tells of a case when 80 women were hanged
for witchcraft.
"R. Eleizer said to them: But did not Simeon B. Shetah hang women at
Ashkelon? They retorted: [on that occasion] he hanged eighty women,
notwithstanding that two [malefactors] must not be tried on the same
day."
TCross
Yap
You/Britain/US are all Anglo-saxons mixed with a lot of Jews.
You even have some Jews among the Chinese and black Afro as well.
If you look at the facts, a lot of Jews did not want to be assimilate
into other host countries and they migrated back from Russia, Syria, ,
Germany, US and Eastern European nations.
They do not have royalty and contribution to any country except for
their race.
That is their nature, just to clarify.
Yap
They all are a bunch of wicked deeds, whether there was one or many.
The witch hunt and burning is a pure criminal act and the vast
majority of the Christians stood by for the terrible crime to happen.
Just showed the brain intelligent sucking ability of the religion.
Yap
> On Jul 8, 4:58 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > James A. Donald wrote:
> > > On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 18:21:31 -0700 (PDT), Darwin123
> > >> There was persecution. Miamondes said that the Moslems were worse
> > >> than the Christians in persecution. However, he didn't experience
> > >> Christianity at its homicidal worst.
>
> > > Because Christianity at is homicidal worst left lots of people to tell
> > > the tale. Of Islam at its homicidal worst, we have only Islamic
> > > accounts.
>
> > >> The Moslems ahd no mass executions of women as witches.
>
> > > Christianity never had "mass executions of women as witches". Every
> > > witch trial was individually tried, and each trial was bitterly
> > > controversial, and witch trials are small stuff compared with Muslims
> > > stoning women to death and so forth.
>
> > In south western Germany alone more than 3,000 witches were executed
> > between 1560 and 1680. This may not be actual mass execution, but it's
> > getting close as no-one knows the total number of victims.
>
> > --
>
> > Rob Bannister
>
> Source? Surely you have a source.
>
> The Jews certainly executed witches. For example, in the book
> Sanhedrin 45b, the Talmud tells of a case when 80 women were hanged
> for witchcraft.
How come today we never have this type of thing?
Could it be all the witch had been burnt?