Slavery in SF and Fantasy
Anne M. Marble
a topic! Unfortunately, it looks like a topic by f*d*l*st. I hope nobody
kills it by accident.
What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
Of course, how you define the "best" depictions will depend on your point
of view. ;-> Certain people (cough, cough) would love books that depict
slaves as lowly people who get enslaved because they don't have the right
pedigree, and it shows. Others might prefer books that show evil,
incompetent, cowardly slavers being overthrown by the resourceful, brave,
abused slaves.
But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
fall into that area?
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read them all but was never able to finish Marching through Georgia.
Hay
The hold Draka series for one, is pretty
Anne M. Marble <ama...@abs.net> wrote in message
news:xrEK5.5$NQ2....@news.abs.net...
Jo Walton
ama...@abs.net "Anne M. Marble" writes:
> Of course, how you define the "best" depictions will depend on your point
> of view. ;-> Certain people (cough, cough) would love books that depict
> slaves as lowly people who get enslaved because they don't have the right
> pedigree, and it shows. Others might prefer books that show evil,
> incompetent, cowardly slavers being overthrown by the resourceful, brave,
> abused slaves.
>
> But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
> fall into that area?
The two things that immediately sprang to mind were :Cyteen: and :Under
the Yoke:. Now there's a paired reading!
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John Boston
> After making a joke about "Slave-girl of Gor," I realized ... this could be
> a topic! Unfortunately, it looks like a topic by f*d*l*st. I hope nobody
> kills it by accident.
>
> What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
>
> Of course, how you define the "best" depictions will depend on your point
> of view. ;-> Certain people (cough, cough) would love books that depict
> slaves as lowly people who get enslaved because they don't have the right
> pedigree, and it shows. Others might prefer books that show evil,
> incompetent, cowardly slavers being overthrown by the resourceful, brave,
> abused slaves.
>
> But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
> fall into that area?
Poul Anderson's novel THE LONG WAY HOME (some editions
under a different title, which I have forgotten--could it have been NO
WORLD OF THEIR OWN?) presents a future Earth featuring a
relatively benign form of slavery (i.e., no overt physical abuse) and
foregrounding (excuse barbarism) a character who was intelligent
and educated and accepted her status as perfectly normal. In later
editions of the book, Anderson expressed some regret at having
fuelled or maybe even started John W. Campbell's preoccupation
with the virtues of slavery.
John Boston
David Brukman
> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
> fall into that area?
and _Citizen of the Galaxy_ by Heinlein? Or for that matter,
the Flinx saga by Foster?
Fred Galvin
_Annals of Klepsis_ by R. A. Lafferty
CleV
Jay Shorten
> But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction
of
> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
> fall into that area?
Perhaps _Out of this World_ by Lawrence Watt-Evans?
Jay Shorten
James Nicoll
the interests of one oppressed group to marginalise another oppressed
group in order to climb the social ladder better.
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carl Dershem
> After making a joke about "Slave-girl of Gor," I realized ... this could be
> a topic! Unfortunately, it looks like a topic by f*d*l*st. I hope nobody
> kills it by accident.
>
> What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
>
> Of course, how you define the "best" depictions will depend on your point
> of view. ;-> Certain people (cough, cough) would love books that depict
> slaves as lowly people who get enslaved because they don't have the right
> pedigree, and it shows. Others might prefer books that show evil,
> incompetent, cowardly slavers being overthrown by the resourceful, brave,
> abused slaves.
>
> But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
> fall into that area?
One of the depictions I like best is Rosenberg's in his "Guardians" series.
Heinlein also did a fair job in 'Citizen".
cd
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Bill Miller
"Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> wrote:
>
> But how about books that show a more realistic, better written
depiction of
> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which
ones
> fall into that area?
_Citizen of the Galaxy_ is the best one I know. Slavery and different
kinds of freedom are the themes that tie the three very different parts
of this book together.
Bill
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Before you buy.
Trent Goulding
>> But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
>> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
>> fall into that area?
>
>The two things that immediately sprang to mind were :Cyteen: and :Under
>the Yoke:. Now there's a paired reading!
Good choices. Just off the top of my head, these two would get my
vote for best depictions, as well. _Cyteen_ because it's so very
thought provoking as it noses around the boundaries of the topic,
and _Under the Yoke_ because it elicited such a visceral reaction
from me.
--
Trent Goulding goul...@2001.law.ucla.edu
Mare Kuntz
everyone is born a slave and some choose never to earn freedom.
-Mare
Elf Sternberg
>What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
In the fantasy category, Anne Rice's "The Claiming of Sleeping
Beauty" is one of my favorites. In the S/F catagory, I thought one of
the better depictions can be found in Susan Matthews' "Bench" series.
Elf
--
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As he lay dozing beside me, a little voice said, "Relax. You're not the
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Robert A. Woodward
Kuntz) wrote:
> Jane Yolen's Pit Dragon Trilogy, especially book 1. In this society
> everyone is born a slave and some choose never to earn freedom.
Not everybody. The few without a "kk" in their names (e.g., the fellow
called "Golden") were not born slaves.
--
rawoo...@aol.com
robe...@halcyon.com http://www.halcyon.com/robertaw/
Keith Morrison
>
> After making a joke about "Slave-girl of Gor," I realized ... this could be
> a topic! Unfortunately, it looks like a topic by f*d*l*st. I hope nobody
> kills it by accident.
>
> What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
>
> Of course, how you define the "best" depictions will depend on your point
> of view. ;-> Certain people (cough, cough) would love books that depict
> slaves as lowly people who get enslaved because they don't have the right
> pedigree, and it shows. Others might prefer books that show evil,
> incompetent, cowardly slavers being overthrown by the resourceful, brave,
> abused slaves.
>
> But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
> fall into that area?
_Drakon_. The slavery practiced by Homo drakensis is really a symbiotic
relationship. The Draka are bioengineered to care for their slaves,
treat them well and depend on them. The servus are bioengineered to be
loyal and content in their position.
--
Keith
Nancy Lebovitz
>a topic! Unfortunately, it looks like a topic by f*d*l*st. I hope nobody
>kills it by accident.
>
>What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
>
>Of course, how you define the "best" depictions will depend on your point
>of view. ;-> Certain people (cough, cough) would love books that depict
>slaves as lowly people who get enslaved because they don't have the right
>pedigree, and it shows. Others might prefer books that show evil,
>incompetent, cowardly slavers being overthrown by the resourceful, brave,
>abused slaves.
And what I'd consider best would be work that shows how people (both
slaves and masters) make their own accomodations within the system.
Showing how people deal with the question of slavery and/or the end of
it would be gravy.
>
>But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
>slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
>fall into that area?
>
It's been a while since I've read much of her work, but how about Octavia
Butler?
I don't think _Citizen of the Galaxy_ does an especially good job of
portraying slavery--the actual system is kept off-stage.
I'm not going to say that _Farnham's Freehold_ does a superb job, but
it's a considerably more serious effort.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Joseph Major
: In article <xrEK5.5$NQ2....@news.abs.net>,
: "Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> wrote:
: >
: > But how about books that show a more realistic, better written
: depiction of
: > slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which
: ones
: > fall into that area?
: _Citizen of the Galaxy_ is the best one I know. Slavery and different
: kinds of freedom are the themes that tie the three very different parts
: of this book together.
In _The John W. Campbell Letters_ there is a letter from Campbell
where he suggests that the book should have been titled _The Slave_ --
because Thorby never quite escapes.
Joseph T Major
--
Joseph Major
: I don't think _Citizen of the Galaxy_ does an especially good job of
: portraying slavery--the actual system is kept off-stage.
?
It begins with a slave auction. It describes, albeit in character
remininsces, slave ships, slave "society", and slave punishments:
"I still have trouble believing that there is such a thing as
slavery."
He shrugged. "Ten lashes will convince anybody."
"Thor! You don't mean they _whipped_ you?"
"I don't remember clearly. But the scars are on my back."
She was very quiet on the way home.
--Citizen of the Galaxy
Joseph T Major
--
Lois Tilton
> What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
There's THE SARDONYX NET
--
LT
www.darkspawn.com
thech...@my-deja.com
"David Brukman" <david....@nofoodstuffs.iname.com> wrote:
SNIP
> I am not sure about realistic, but how about _Space Relations_ by
Barr,
> and _Citizen of the Galaxy_ by Heinlein? Or for that matter,
> the Flinx saga by Foster?
"Citizen of the Galaxy" is an interesting one indeed.
Heinlein's purely economic arguments for _why_ slavery would happen in
an interstellar "civilisation" are (unfortunately) all too reasonable.
[Aside: then again so was the logic behind Niven's "Jigsaw Man" and
"The Gift From Earth"]
However, understanding it and forgiving it are two very different
things. And it was one thing that Heinlein _never_ forgave or approved.
Part of the appeal of "Citizen of the Galaxy" for me is how very clear
that is made without detracting from a very entertaining coming-of-age
story.
John Samuel
The Chimera
A schedule bears the same relationship to reality as astrology
Joe Slater
>Heinlein's purely economic arguments for _why_ slavery would happen in
>an interstellar "civilisation" are (unfortunately) all too reasonable.
>However, understanding it and forgiving it are two very different
>things. And it was one thing that Heinlein _never_ forgave or approved.
He never had any reason to do so. Slavery's an easy thing to oppose.
jds
--
And now kind friends, what I have wrote,
I hope you will pass o'er,
And not criticize, as some have done,
Hitherto herebefore. (Julia Moore, "The Author's Early Life")
Nancy Lebovitz
how people live with slavery. Most of what's actually shown is Baslim
and Thorby's extremely anomalous relationship.
Nancy Lebovitz
>In article <JIGK5.148803$4d.21...@news02.optonline.net>,
> "David Brukman" <david....@nofoodstuffs.iname.com> wrote:
>SNIP
>> I am not sure about realistic, but how about _Space Relations_ by
>Barr,
>> and _Citizen of the Galaxy_ by Heinlein? Or for that matter,
>> the Flinx saga by Foster?
>
>"Citizen of the Galaxy" is an interesting one indeed.
>
>Heinlein's purely economic arguments for _why_ slavery would happen in
>an interstellar "civilisation" are (unfortunately) all too reasonable.
>
pioneers....
preac...@my-deja.com
Troy Denning's Dark Sun quintology has a very bleak description of
slavery. Don't get me wrong, these are not good books - as a D&D tie-in
product they contain too many useless fight scenes.
To the point: the society in the books is based on slavery. One of the
protagonists is a "good" slaveowner - one that attempts to treat his
slaves humanely. However when the inevitable revolution comes, his
slaves, no uncle toms they, turn on him. A humane slaveowner is still a
slaveowner.
Another book is Delaney's Neverion series, which deals with slavery -
of white "barbarian" people by their dark-skinned owners.
Ron Henry
>But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
>slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
>fall into that area?
- Samuel Delany's Tales of Neveryon series.
- Severna Park's books.
--
Ron Henry ronh...@clarityconnect.com
http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/
Jurgen Pletinckx
Delany has some takes on this:
- Neveryon is a slave-keeping civilisation.
- RAT Korga (and the other RATs in _Stars in My Pocket Like
Grains of Sand_) could be seen as a high-tech variety of slave.
(ObAnthony: RATs of Gor)
-_Empire star_, when seen from a certain angle, has for its sole
subject the impact of slave-keeping on the Empire. I think.
(Just re-read _Tales of Neveryon_. I'll try to make it through the
tetralogy this time, but I may stall out again. A Delany overdose
can be nasty; I'll probably have to read something radically different
to cleanse the palate. John Barnes' Timewars? The collected Dun-
sany? Benford's Timescape? Well, I'll manage)
Jurgen
Shelly Raines
>
> What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy
novels?
Serverna Park's Hand of Prophecy is a very bleak novel about
slavery in the future. The Draka series is very good. The
two main characters in Berg's Transformation are a slave and
his owner. Anne Bishop writes some very dark scenes about
slavery in her books. CS Friedman's In Conquest Born and
The Madness Season , William Barton's When Heaven Fell all
contain interesting depictions of slavery.
Shelly
Nancy Lebovitz
Jurgen Pletinckx <jurgen.p...@algonomics.com> wrote:
>
>(Just re-read _Tales of Neveryon_. I'll try to make it through the
>tetralogy this time, but I may stall out again. A Delany overdose
>can be nasty; I'll probably have to read something radically different
>to cleanse the palate. John Barnes' Timewars? The collected Dun-
>sany? Benford's Timescape? Well, I'll manage)
>
If you avoid Russ' _And Chaos Died_ and Broderick's _The White
Abacus_, you'll probably be ok.
Kyri
"Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> wrote:
> After making a joke about "Slave-girl of Gor," I realized ... this
could be
> a topic! Unfortunately, it looks like a topic by f*d*l*st. I hope
nobody
> kills it by accident.
>
>
explore the issue pretty intelligently, I think. Fems (women, obviously)
are chattel when the series starts, then rebel, and end up in charge.
It's a good study of the issues -- and gray areas -- surrounding
revolution. One of the more interesting interactions is that between the
fems, with their post-slavery mentality, and the Riding Women, who have
never been slaves. As far as I remember only the first book shows fems
actually in an enslaved state, but it's pretty horrific without being
unbelievably melodramatic.
--
What is the moral who rides may rede, when the night is thick and the
tracks are blind?
A friend in a pinch is a friend in need, but a fool who waits for the
laggard behind.
Down to Gehenna or up to the throne,
She travels the fastest who travels alone. --Kipling
ll...@my-deja.com
>
> But how about books that show a more realistic, better written
depiction of
> slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which
ones
> fall into that area?
>
unfairly (and illegally) forced into slavery. He is very upset at this
without ever once even thinking that slavery as such is wrong. He
simply hasn't done anything worthy of being a slave (e.g., being born
one, or committing certain crimes). Slavery as such plays only a small
role in the book, but is simply taken for granted by every level of
society, including the slaves themselves.
Larry
Larry
Jurgen Pletinckx
> Fortunately, almost everything is radically different from Delany.
Oh, but I adore most of Delany's work. It's just that the Neveryon
series gives me the feeling he is trying to hammer in some pegs
for which my brain doesn't have holes. (I'm sure I'll think of a more
appropriate simile in half an hour).
> If you avoid Russ' _And Chaos Died_ and Broderick's _The White
> Abacus_, you'll probably be ok.
Don't think I ever read any Russ (isfdbing... 'A Game of Vlet' sounds
familiar, though). _The White Abacus_, on the other hand, is officially
Not For Me.
Of course, now you've got me wondering how Broderick and Delany
would be similar.
Jurgen
(Cleaning his palate with 'The Compleat Traveller in Black'. No slavery.)
Nancy Lebovitz
Jurgen Pletinckx <jurgen.p...@algonomics.com> wrote:
>Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> wrote...
>> If you avoid Russ' _And Chaos Died_ and Broderick's _The White
>> Abacus_, you'll probably be ok.
>
>Don't think I ever read any Russ (isfdbing... 'A Game of Vlet' sounds
>familiar, though). _The White Abacus_, on the other hand, is officially
>Not For Me.
>
>Of course, now you've got me wondering how Broderick and Delany
>would be similar.
>
White Abacus_ (first chapter or two a couple of times--I keep
bouncing off) seems very Delanyesque to me.
William December Starr
CL...@balJUNKcab.ch (CleV) said:
<ahem> Anne Rice's Beauty books <ahem>
Were there any humans in any of those books?
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Mark Atwood
> In article <39fb3a7f...@news.balcab.ch>,
> CL...@balJUNKcab.ch (CleV) said:
> <ahem> Anne Rice's Beauty books <ahem>
> Were there any humans in any of those books?
Well, they walked like humans (didnt run like humans) and could form
words, but their minds? Mmm... No. Gorians of both genders are more
human than the characters of Beauty.
--
Mark Atwood | The summit of Mount Everest is marine limestone.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
James Nicoll
[Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
to be distinguished from human.
--
My Pledge: No more than 2 OT posts to rasfw a day. No replying
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Jerome Bigge
> What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
>[Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
>won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
>level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
>where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
>to be distinguished from human.
The most likely way slavery would be reintroduced would be the
enslavements of criminals as opposed to sending to prison for
long periods of time. This might occur due to the costs of
imprisoning people as compared to selling them as slaves.
Jerome Bigge
NRA Life Member
Supporter of National Health Insurance
CompTIA A+ Certified Computer Technician
Author of the "Warlady" & "Wartime" series.
Download at "http://members.tripod.com/~jbigge"
Richard Horton
> What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
>[Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
>won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
>level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
>where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
>to be distinguished from human.
Well, really, that's one of the big problems I had with _Chimera_. I
just didn't see how we could get there from here.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Nancy Lebovitz
Jerome Bigge <jbi...@novagate.net> wrote:
>On 1 Nov 2000 16:32:00 GMT, jam...@nyquist.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
>>[Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
>>won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
>>level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
>>where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
>>to be distinguished from human.
>
>The most likely way slavery would be reintroduced would be the
>enslavements of criminals as opposed to sending to prison for
>long periods of time. This might occur due to the costs of
>imprisoning people as compared to selling them as slaves.
>
it might have been in one of the Dangerous Vision anthologies.
The viewpoint character is a man who bought a female slave at a
White Sale. Things don't work out emotionally.
Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster
> What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
> [Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
> won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
> level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
> where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
> to be distinguished from human.
How quickly was the progression from their introduction to their being so
close to human? Their legal status may have been established when they
were little more than service animals and simply hasn't kept up. Those
having the power to change the chimeras' status have little incentive to
do so, and those with the incentive have little power.
--
Joe Foster <mailto:jfo...@ricochet.net> Got Thetans? <http://www.xenu.net/>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
Micole Sudberg
jbi...@novagate.net (Jerome Bigge) wrote:
> On 1 Nov 2000 16:32:00 GMT, jam...@nyquist.uwaterloo.ca (James
Nicoll) wrote:
>
> > What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
> >[Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
> >won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
> >level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
> >where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be
tattooed
> >to be distinguished from human.
>
> The most likely way slavery would be reintroduced would be the
> enslavements of criminals as opposed to sending to prison for
> long periods of time. This might occur due to the costs of
> imprisoning people as compared to selling them as slaves.
>
This is, roughly, the idea behind the system in Elizabeth Lynn's THE
SARDONYX NET. It's a pretty tough-minded examination of the idea of
"justified" and "benevolent" slavery.
There's also, of course, Octavia Butler's KINDRED, which manages to do
full justice to its horrifying premise. And Toni Morrison's BELOVED,
for values of "science fiction" which include ghost stories.
--m.
--
Micole Sudberg
mic...@aya.yale.edu
James Nicoll
Richard Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>On 1 Nov 2000 16:32:00 GMT, jam...@nyquist.uwaterloo.ca (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
>>[Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
>>won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
>>level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
>>where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
>>to be distinguished from human.
>
>Well, really, that's one of the big problems I had with _Chimera_. I
>just didn't see how we could get there from here.
I wonder whether slavery was re-introduced before or after the
Evil Libertarions took power?
_Chimera_ felt like a lot of set-pieces on a stage rather than
a coherent world. S. Andrew Swann at least had a background reason why
his moreaus got made: cheap cannon fodder for the wars sweeping Asia
and South America and in any case
SPOILERS
Aliens were stirring the pot to make things worse.
Not clear to me that the moreaus beat the available human
resources but the moreaus were made for fast life cycles.
Beth Friedman
<8tqr07$b...@netaxs.com>, wrote:
>>The most likely way slavery would be reintroduced would be the
>>enslavements of criminals as opposed to sending to prison for
>>long periods of time. This might occur due to the costs of
>>imprisoning people as compared to selling them as slaves.
>>
>IIRC, that was used in a short story. I can't quite place it, though
>it might have been in one of the Dangerous Vision anthologies.
>
>The viewpoint character is a man who bought a female slave at a
>White Sale. Things don't work out emotionally.
Rather earlier than _Dangerous Visions_, I think; I've read that
story. "Sandra," that's it.
<checking downstairs>
And yes, it was published in the two-volume Boucher anthology that was
a promo for the SFBC for a long time, _A Treasury of Great Science
Fiction_. It was published in 1953.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Adam Benedict Canning
That's in Man of Gold rather than Flamesong isn't it.
The bit about Harsan having no lineage name?
Adam
Nancy Lebovitz
anthology. It's got _Brain Wave_, _The Stars My Destination_, and
"The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff".
James Nicoll
Joe \"Nuke Me Xemu\" Foster <jfo...@ricochet.net> wrote:
>"James Nicoll" <jam...@nyquist.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
>news:8tpgi0$g8p$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca...
>
>> What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
>> [Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
>> won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
>> level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
>> where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
>> to be distinguished from human.
>
>How quickly was the progression from their introduction to their being so
>close to human? Their legal status may have been established when they
>were little more than service animals and simply hasn't kept up. Those
>having the power to change the chimeras' status have little incentive to
>do so, and those with the incentive have little power.
>
the female chimera is adult [with no mention of fast aging I remember]
and a person involved in the orginal design is still able to voice
opinions, so I'd guess the earliest chimeras must be not more than -maybe-
fifty years old. No mention of uplifted dogs or cats not in humanoid
form, either, ims.
A smart guide dog might be very useful. Not sure that a smart
cat is at all sensible from the human POV.
Kyri
Having had run-ins with collection agents, I think there's a population
out there that would support it, and I can see debtor's prison turning
into debtor's indentured servitude rather easily.
(on the other hand, how much difference is there between "debtor's
indentured servitude" and "a job"?
--K
In article <8tpmfp$tui$0...@205.138.138.3>,
jbi...@novagate.net (Jerome Bigge) wrote:
--
Don't let your mouth write a check that your ass can't cash.
--Anon.
Mark Atwood
>
> (on the other hand, how much difference is there between "debtor's
> indentured servitude" and "a job"?
I'm allowed to quit my job.
CleV
>ll...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> [snip]!
I bought The Man of Gold cheap about ten years ago and have never had
the druthers to start reading it (the cover makes it seem very
cheesy). Is it any good?
Lisa A Leutheuser
>
>I bought The Man of Gold cheap about ten years ago and have never had
>the druthers to start reading it (the cover makes it seem very
>cheesy). Is it any good?
It took me a bit to get used to Barker's writing style,
but once I got into the story I enjoyed it very much.
--
Lisa Leutheuser - eal (at) umich.edu - http://www.umich.edu/~eal
Any advertising or other links in this post were not inserted by
the poster.
Supermouse
>But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
>slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
>fall into that area?
I don't know if I want to use the word 'best' or even 'good', but there
is certainly a slave-like underclass in the Anne MacAffrey Pern books.
They're called 'drudges' and one description of them is, IIRC, people
'without the wit or the ambition' to rise out of drudgery.
This implies that there is movement between the drudges and the rest of
Pernese society. However, when one of the main characters dresses
himself up as a drudge, in soiled rags, he finds it very difficult to
get a minute to himself and even harder to escape.
He is also physically and verbally abused, and the tone of other books
lead me to believe that this if fairly normal treatment for drudges.
Certainly the life of drudges even in the supposedly liberal Harper Hall
is hard and seemingly thankless.
I don't know whether the workers in the mines count as drudges, but
there is a reference in _All the Weyrs of Pern_ to criminals being
condemned to work in the mines.
Interestingly, there is also use of spit-dogs - a use of animals
regarded here in the UK as outmoded and primitive.
The use of drudges on Pern is entirely taken for granted. In most of the
books, they are purely background entities and I don't recall any book
focussing on any drudge as a person, save perhaps for Lessa who turned
out to not really be a drudge, but a noble in hiding.
So, do 'drudges' in the Pern books count as slaves?
Cordially,
--
Supermouse
Richard Horton
On 2 Nov 2000 14:36:56 GMT, jam...@nyquist.uwaterloo.ca (James
Nicoll) wrote:
> _Chimera_ felt like a lot of set-pieces on a stage rather than
>a coherent world.
Exactly!
J.B. Moreno
> Anne M. Marble <ama...@abs.net> writes
> >But how about books that show a more realistic, better written depiction of
> >slavery? Books that aren't afraid to show those "grey areas." Which ones
> >fall into that area?
>
> I don't know if I want to use the word 'best' or even 'good', but there
> is certainly a slave-like underclass in the Anne MacAffrey Pern books.
> They're called 'drudges' and one description of them is, IIRC, people
> 'without the wit or the ambition' to rise out of drudgery.
>
> This implies that there is movement between the drudges and the rest of
> Pernese society. However, when one of the main characters dresses
> himself up as a drudge, in soiled rags, he finds it very difficult to
> get a minute to himself and even harder to escape.
He's expected to work because that is what is going on at that time.
It's the "uniform" of the day, try to remain inconspicuous while dressed
in a UPS or FedEx uniform and standing around doing nothing in one of
their hubs.
> He is also physically and verbally abused, and the tone of other books
> lead me to believe that this if fairly normal treatment for drudges.
> Certainly the life of drudges even in the supposedly liberal Harper Hall
> is hard and seemingly thankless.
They seem to be paid and they can apparently leave if they wish. It's
not a great life but it doesn't seem to me to even approach the status
of slavery.
-snip-
> The use of drudges on Pern is entirely taken for granted.
Why shouldn't it be?
> In most of the books, they are purely background entities and I don't
> recall any book focussing on any drudge as a person, save perhaps for
> Lessa who turned out to not really be a drudge, but a noble in hiding.
Again, so? Most people are background entities (both in real life and
in fiction).
> So, do 'drudges' in the Pern books count as slaves?
Not in my book.
--
JBM
"Moebius strippers only show you their back side." -- Unknown
Luke Webber
willing slaves, but slaves nonetheless, and they're often badly mistreated.
Luke
David Given
pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) writes:
[...]
>> This implies that there is movement between the drudges and the rest of
>> Pernese society. However, when one of the main characters dresses
>> himself up as a drudge, in soiled rags, he finds it very difficult to
>> get a minute to himself and even harder to escape.
>
> He's expected to work because that is what is going on at that time.
> It's the "uniform" of the day, try to remain inconspicuous while dressed
> in a UPS or FedEx uniform and standing around doing nothing in one of
> their hubs.
That was also Meron's Hold, and we're told that conditions there are
unusual. And the other set of drudges we see are at pre-Lytol Ruatha,
which is also unusual.
Actually, we don't see a lot of normal Hold life. _Renegades_? Most of
that is set in the Pernese underworld.
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "SCSI is *not* magic. There are
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | *fundamental technical reasons* why it is
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | necessary to sacriface a young goat to your
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ SCSI chain now and then." --- John woods
Gavin Williams
>In article <8tpmfp$tui$0...@205.138.138.3>,
>Jerome Bigge <jbi...@novagate.net> wrote:
>>On 1 Nov 2000 16:32:00 GMT, jam...@nyquist.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
>>>[Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
>>>won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
>>>level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
>>>where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
>>>to be distinguished from human.
>>
>>The most likely way slavery would be reintroduced would be the
>>enslavements of criminals as opposed to sending to prison for
>>long periods of time. This might occur due to the costs of
>>imprisoning people as compared to selling them as slaves.
Then also imprisonment for lack of payment of debts.. then the
floodgates will open.
Gavin
--
Remove the blocks from my name to reply
Terrell Miller
news:m3ofzyd...@flash.localdomain...
> Kyri <ky...@usa.net> writes:
> >
> > (on the other hand, how much difference is there between "debtor's
> > indentured servitude" and "a job"?
>
> I'm allowed to quit my job.
And you can get promoted.
--
Terrell Miller, Ordo Pantheris
terrel...@mindspring.com
"God made most people fall asleep right after making love so they wouldn't
say stupid things".
-Joseph J. Andrew
Barry Rene DeCicco
>
> "Mark Atwood" <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:m3ofzyd...@flash.localdomain...
> > >
> > > (on the other hand, how much difference is there between "debtor's
> > > indentured servitude" and "a job"?
> >
> > I'm allowed to quit my job.
>
And usually getting fired is the most
severe disciplinary action that is allowed
under the law. Indentured servitude would
probably involved much worse.
Barry
Jordan S. Bassior
>I just thought of an example. The house elves in the Harry Potter books are
>willing slaves, but slaves nonetheless, and they're often badly mistreated.
And note that Rowling is using them to explore the concept of "willing slavery"
-- and not in a one-sided manner either.
--
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
--
"Not believing in force is the same as not believing in gravitation" (Trotsky)
--
Kyri
better now. (:
--K
In article <3A0436FD...@takemeout.umich.edu>,
Barry Rene DeCicco <bdecicc...@takemeout.umich.edu> wrote:
> Terrell Miller wrote:
> >
> > "Mark Atwood" <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> > news:m3ofzyd...@flash.localdomain...
> > > Kyri <ky...@usa.net> writes:
> > > >
> > > > (on the other hand, how much difference is there between
"debtor's
> > > > indentured servitude" and "a job"?
> > >
> > > I'm allowed to quit my job.
> >
> > And you can get promoted.
>
> And usually getting fired is the most
> severe disciplinary action that is allowed
> under the law. Indentured servitude would
> probably involved much worse.
>
> Barry
>
--
Adam Benedict Canning
If you don't expect some of the useual fantasy tropes.
I enjoyed both, but then I like the universe as an RPG as well.
And I am still slightly disappointed the Lords of Tsamra didn't come
out.
Adam
CleV
<siu9...@rdg.ac.uk> wrote:
>CleV wrote:
>> I bought The Man of Gold cheap about ten years ago and have never had
>> the druthers to start reading it (the cover makes it seem very
>> cheesy). Is it any good?
>If you don't expect some of the useual fantasy tropes.
>I enjoyed both, but then I like the universe as an RPG as well.
>And I am still slightly disappointed the Lords of Tsamra didn't come
>out.
Thanks! Guess I'll have to dust it off someday soon then.
William December Starr
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> said:
>>> <ahem> Anne Rice's Beauty books <ahem>
>> Were there any humans in any of those books?
>
> Well, they walked like humans (didnt run like humans) and could form
> words, but their minds? Mmm... No. Gorians of both genders are more
> human than the characters of Beauty.
Hmm, I may been a bit too subtle and ironic for my own good -- that was
exactly the feeling I got from the first third of the first book in the
series. Which, of course, was all I read, and I've been known to _like_
a lot of the stuff that was going on... but only when it's humans who are
playing. Even cardboard ones are acceptable, but "A.N. Roquelaure's"
characters didn't even achieve that degree of verisimilitude.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> said:
> Rather earlier than _Dangerous Visions_, I think; I've read that
> story. "Sandra," that's it.
Author = George P. Elliott, by the way.
> <checking downstairs>
>
> And yes, it was published in the two-volume Boucher anthology that was
> a promo for the SFBC for a long time, _A Treasury of Great Science
> Fiction_. It was published in 1953.
The ISFDB says 1957 for original publication and 1959 for the anthology:
For: Sandra
1. Treasury of Great SF 1, Anthony Boucher, (year unknown)
2. The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, October 1957, Anthony
Boucher, 1957, $0.35
3. A Treasury of Great Science Fiction, Vol. 1, Anthony Boucher,
1959, Doubleday, hc
(I assume that 1 and 3 refer to exactly the same publication and that in
a perfect database the 1 entry would be deleted.)
Still, I'm more than a little bit amazed that you could get away with:
She was listed as above average in cleanliness, intelligence and
personality, superb in copulation, and fair in versatility and sewing.
in F&SF in 1953 _or_ 1957. "Superb in copulation?" In 1957?
Pete McCutchen
>On 1 Nov 2000 16:32:00 GMT, jam...@nyquist.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> What I often wonder in near-futures with slavery in the West
>>[Like _Chimera_ or _Farthest Star_] is how the legal battles were
>>won. You'd think the precedents would lean against clearly human-
>>level biological beings being enslaved, esp in the case of _Chimera_,
>>where the chimeras are so close to human that they have to be tattooed
>>to be distinguished from human.
>
>The most likely way slavery would be reintroduced would be the
>enslavements of criminals as opposed to sending to prison for
>long periods of time. This might occur due to the costs of
>imprisoning people as compared to selling them as slaves.
Actually, the Thirteenth Amendment has an explicit loophole for
involuntary servitude for criminals.
That still doesn't deal with human-level biological beings who are
guilty of no crime, though. I would argue that such beings are
"persons" within the meaning of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments,
and therefore entitled to all legal protections, but the human
capacity to say "you're not human; you're different" ought not be
underestimated.
--
Pete McCutchen
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>This is, roughly, the idea behind the system in Elizabeth Lynn's THE
>SARDONYX NET. It's a pretty tough-minded examination of the idea of
>"justified" and "benevolent" slavery.
Ah. Well, it's nice to know that Ms. Lynn is engaging in tough-minded
examination of such current ideas. The western world is, as we all
know, bubbling over with advocates of "benevolent" slavery.
--
Pete McCutchen
Pete McCutchen
>It would not entirely surprise me if debtor's prison were reintroduced.
>Having had run-ins with collection agents, I think there's a population
>out there that would support it, and I can see debtor's prison turning
>into debtor's indentured servitude rather easily.
Given the average American's level of credit card debt, I seriously
doubt it.
--
Pete McCutchen
Pete McCutchen
>In article <xrEK5.5$NQ2....@news.abs.net>
> "Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> writes:
>
>>What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
>
> In the fantasy category, Anne Rice's "The Claiming of Sleeping
>Beauty" is one of my favorites. In the S/F catagory, I thought one of
>the better depictions can be found in Susan Matthews' "Bench" series.
Urg.
Cue Pete's "Susan Mathews is a sicko" rant.
--
Pete McCutchen
Jonathan W Hendry
> On Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:30:34 GMT, Kyri <ky...@usa.net> wrote:
>>It would not entirely surprise me if debtor's prison were reintroduced.
>>Having had run-ins with collection agents, I think there's a population
>>out there that would support it, and I can see debtor's prison turning
>>into debtor's indentured servitude rather easily.
> Given the average American's level of credit card debt, I seriously
> doubt it.
Having worked at a bank, I could see it happening, except for the
fact that upkeep of the prisoners/servants would be more expensive
than ousourcing to Asia.
I'm quite sure that the banks would do away with personal bankruptcy
if they could, in which case people could end up working their
entire lives just to pay the interest on credit card debt, without
denting the principle.
Kyri
regard someone who literally does not have the money to pay their bills
as hardly better than a criminal. It would certainly take some large
legal and social changes for debtors' prison to become a reality again
but I wouldn't completely rule it out.
In article <0m0j0t0m0ivdrrqss...@4ax.com>,
Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:30:34 GMT, Kyri <ky...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >It would not entirely surprise me if debtor's prison were
reintroduced.
> >Having had run-ins with collection agents, I think there's a
population
> >out there that would support it, and I can see debtor's prison
turning
> >into debtor's indentured servitude rather easily.
>
> Given the average American's level of credit card debt, I seriously
> doubt it.
> --
>
> Pete McCutchen
>
--
God Money's not looking for the cure.
God Money's not concerned with the sick among the pure.
God Money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
God Money's not one to choose -- Nine Inch Nails
Kyri
have a massive amount of student loan debt (which cannot be settled
through personal bankruptcy). The interest is so high that whatever
payments I can actually afford to make go to interest, not principal,
and the total debt constantly increases. If I were to default, the loan
company would sue me, and the courts would order me to continue to make
payments (though possibly less than the 50% of my post-rent takehome pay
that the loan company currently wants). In other words, barring
unforeseen occurences I'm going to be paying this thing off for the rest
of my life without ever really making a dent. And my situation is not at
all unusual.
But at least I have no credit card debt.
--Kyri "Can I go back in time and NOT go to grad school?"
In article <3a09...@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhe...@ux1.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:30:34 GMT, Kyri <ky...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >>It would not entirely surprise me if debtor's prison were
reintroduced.
> >>Having had run-ins with collection agents, I think there's a
population
> >>out there that would support it, and I can see debtor's prison
turning
> >>into debtor's indentured servitude rather easily.
>
> > Given the average American's level of credit card debt, I seriously
> > doubt it.
>
> Having worked at a bank, I could see it happening, except for the
> fact that upkeep of the prisoners/servants would be more expensive
> than ousourcing to Asia.
>
> I'm quite sure that the banks would do away with personal bankruptcy
> if they could, in which case people could end up working their
> entire lives just to pay the interest on credit card debt, without
> denting the principle.
>
--
God Money's not looking for the cure.
God Money's not concerned with the sick among the pure.
God Money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
God Money's not one to choose -- Nine Inch Nails
James Nicoll
Probably I should put off mentioning she's on the short list for
the next US Supreme Court appointment, then....
--
My Pledge: No more than 2 OT posts to rasfw a day. No replying
to trolls and idiots. Start five good on topic threads a day to drown
out the crap. Drink more coffee.
Micole Sudberg
How pleasant it must be never to have run into sloppy or psychologically
unsound depictions of happy, well-off slaves with kind masters in fiction
or film. I myself would undoubtedly in retrospect have been much happier
never having read GONE WITH THE WIND. Since I made the mistake of reading
it, however, I was just as pleased to find a book where the author kept in
mind that all this was obviously rot.
I suppose this is a pleasure lost on someone so fortunate as to never have
encountered a situation in which it was necessary to re-state the obvious.
--m.
--
Micole Iris Sudberg
e-mail: mic...@aya.yale.edu
Kyri
I don't think one can make any determination about her being a sicko
based on her having written about a character who is a sadist. (I mean,
if we're going to judge like that, a LOT of people are sickos.)
Would she not be the first lesbian US Supreme Court appointee in
history? (I'm assuming she's a lesbian because of the author bio on the
back of her books, which says she lives with her "partner".) That's
pretty significant, if it's true.
--K
In article <8uc919$no6$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>,
jam...@nyquist.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article <ps6j0t0nt2l1l0l9i...@4ax.com>,
> Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >On 29 Oct 2000 07:16:45 GMT, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote:
> >
> >>In article <xrEK5.5$NQ2....@news.abs.net>
> >> "Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> writes:
> >>
> >>>What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
> >>
> >> In the fantasy category, Anne Rice's "The Claiming of
Sleeping
> >>Beauty" is one of my favorites. In the S/F catagory, I thought one
of
> >>the better depictions can be found in Susan Matthews' "Bench"
series.
> >
> >Urg.
> >
> >Cue Pete's "Susan Mathews is a sicko" rant.
>
> Probably I should put off mentioning she's on the short list for
> the next US Supreme Court appointment, then....
> --
> My Pledge: No more than 2 OT posts to rasfw a day. No replying
> to trolls and idiots. Start five good on topic threads a day to drown
> out the crap. Drink more coffee.
>
--
Mark Atwood
> I see your point. But there are still a lot of people out there who
> regard someone who literally does not have the money to pay their bills
> as hardly better than a criminal. It would certainly take some large
> legal and social changes for debtors' prison to become a reality again
> but I wouldn't completely rule it out.
I've *seen* why many people dont have "the money to pay their
bills". Often yes, they are "victims of circumstance", but quite often
they are because they did something *stupid*.
--
Mark Atwood | The summit of Mount Everest is marine limestone.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Mark Atwood
> This is already pretty much what is happening with student loan debt. I
> have a massive amount of student loan debt (which cannot be settled
> through personal bankruptcy). The interest is so high that whatever
> payments I can actually afford to make go to interest, not principal,
> and the total debt constantly increases. If I were to default, the loan
> company would sue me, and the courts would order me to continue to make
> payments (though possibly less than the 50% of my post-rent takehome pay
> that the loan company currently wants). In other words, barring
> unforeseen occurences I'm going to be paying this thing off for the rest
> of my life without ever really making a dent. And my situation is not at
> all unusual.
Were you forced to take out the loan?
Anna Feruglio Dal DAn
> Would she not be the first lesbian US Supreme Court appointee in
> history? (I'm assuming she's a lesbian because of the author bio on the
> back of her books, which says she lives with her "partner".) That's
> pretty significant, if it's true.
I often speak of my SO as my "partner". Boyfriend sound ridicolous,
companion sounds like I'm 80, SO sounds too PC. Does that make me a
lesbian? :-)
--
Cut out attenzione to mail me
Togli attenzione per scrivermi
http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
Anna Feruglio Dal DAn
> Probably I should put off mentioning she's on the short list for
> the next US Supreme Court appointment, then....
Someone so liberal? Don't joke.
Brian B. Rodenborn
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Kyri <ky...@usa.net> writes:
[ lengthy whinge about student loans ]
>Were you forced to take out the loan?
Of course not. I for one went to a public university, and worked the entire
time I was getting my undergrad. It took longer, mainly because I had to
work in the afternoon, and I was too lazy to go to early morning classes.
Still, I received a quality edimication, and had money in the bank when
I finished.
Choosing to go to a fancy school on expensive loans is a choice you make,
but it's far from the only one. The Kyri knew the deal going in.
--
Next we can discuss what type of person puts their hate mail in their
.SIG file for everyone to see. That could get interesting.
- RATBoy (to me on rec.arts.tv)
Mark Reichert
> I've *seen* why many people dont have "the money to pay their
> bills". Often yes, they are "victims of circumstance", but quite often
> they are because they did something *stupid*.
Yeah, often they are stupid enough to pay a large medical bill rather than
dying or letting die whichever dependant was sick.
--
Please respond only in the newsgroup. I will not respond
to newsgroup messages by e-mail.
Mark Reichert
> Were you forced to take out the loan?
Of course not, he or she should have gone to the college or university one
of his or her ilk should go to, rather than aspiring to better.
Firebug
Kyri <ky...@usa.net> wrote:
> This is already pretty much what is happening with student loan debt.
I
> have a massive amount of student loan debt (which cannot be settled
> through personal bankruptcy). The interest is so high that whatever
> payments I can actually afford to make go to interest, not principal,
> and the total debt constantly increases.
If I were to default, the loan
> company would sue me, and the courts would order me to continue to
make
> payments (though possibly less than the 50% of my post-rent takehome
pay
> that the loan company currently wants). In other words, barring
> unforeseen occurences I'm going to be paying this thing off for the
rest
> of my life without ever really making a dent.
You don't think you have any prospects of ever making more money than
you do now? Or having fewer expenses?
- Firebug
Firebug
"Mark Reichert" <ma...@messagelink.com> wrote:
> Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:m3zoja4...@flash.localdomain...
> > I've *seen* why many people dont have "the money to pay their
> > bills". Often yes, they are "victims of circumstance", but quite
often
> > they are because they did something *stupid*.
>
> Yeah, often they are stupid enough to pay a large medical bill rather
than
> dying or letting die whichever dependant was sick.
Bullshit. The vast majority of credit problems in the US have nothing
to do with necessities. Rather they are a case of people attempting to
live beyond their means, either by running up large bills on credit
cards or by purchasing on credit a house or car that is more
extravagant than they can afford. Most (no, not all) credit problems
would be eliminated if people would avoid all forms of loans besides a
home mortgage (and resolve to pay extra towards the principal on that
whenever they can afford it).
Mark Atwood
> > Were you forced to take out the loan?
>
> Of course not, he or she should have gone to the college or university one
> of his or her ilk should go to, rather than aspiring to better.
If someone crunches the numbers, and decided that being in hock for
the rest of his life is a fair exchange for a thing he wants, then he
got wanted with his eyes open.
If he decided it wasn't a fair trade, but did it anyway, tough.
If he *didn't* crunch then numbers ahead of time, well then, again,
tough.
Keith Morrison
> >The most likely way slavery would be reintroduced would be the
> >enslavements of criminals as opposed to sending to prison for
> >long periods of time. This might occur due to the costs of
> >imprisoning people as compared to selling them as slaves.
>
> Actually, the Thirteenth Amendment has an explicit loophole for
> involuntary servitude for criminals.
>
> That still doesn't deal with human-level biological beings who are
> guilty of no crime, though. I would argue that such beings are
> "persons" within the meaning of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments,
> and therefore entitled to all legal protections, but the human
> capacity to say "you're not human; you're different" ought not be
> underestimated.
I think someone wanting to create a near-human slave species in much
of the western world (especially Canusa) would have a tough fight in
the courts to prove they could do it and I suspect a big chunk of the
population would be against it.
If not for entirely the right reasons ("Didn't anyone see what
happened in Planet of the Apes? It's madness, I tell you,
madness!").
--
Keith
Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster
> Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:m3r94m4...@flash.localdomain...
> > Were you forced to take out the loan?
>
> Of course not, he or she should have gone to the college or university one
> of his or her ilk should go to, rather than aspiring to better.
I remember trying to work out whether I'd be better off hassling with
the financial aid bureaucracy or spending the same amount of time
working for minimum wage. IIRC, it was a pretty close call.
--
Joe Foster <mailto:jfo...@ricochet.net> Got Thetans? <http://www.xenu.net/>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
Mark Reichert
> If someone crunches the numbers, and decided that being in hock for
> the rest of his life is a fair exchange for a thing he wants, then he
> got wanted with his eyes open.
>
> If he decided it wasn't a fair trade, but did it anyway, tough.
>
> If he *didn't* crunch then numbers ahead of time, well then, again,
> tough.
Or perhaps they did crunch the numbers ahead of time, but circumstances
didn't quite work out as they thought. Perhaps they haven't yet got that
high paying job that will allow the loan to be paid off.
But I guess in your world, nobody ever fails. Or if they do fail at
anything, they deserve ALL of the crap that comes their way.
Kyri
forced to go to grad school.)
But people aren't forced to run up huge credit card debts in the
majority of cases, either.
I'm not claiming that I didn't get myself into my own mess, just
responding to the post which mentioned people working lifelong to pay
off un-payoffable debts.
--K
In article <m3r94m4...@flash.localdomain>,
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Kyri <ky...@usa.net> writes:
> > This is already pretty much what is happening with student loan
debt. I
> > have a massive amount of student loan debt (which cannot be settled
> > through personal bankruptcy). The interest is so high that whatever
> > payments I can actually afford to make go to interest, not
principal,
> > and the total debt constantly increases. If I were to default, the
loan
> > company would sue me, and the courts would order me to continue to
make
> > payments (though possibly less than the 50% of my post-rent takehome
pay
> > that the loan company currently wants). In other words, barring
> > unforeseen occurences I'm going to be paying this thing off for the
rest
> > of my life without ever really making a dent. And my situation is
not at
> > all unusual.
>
> Were you forced to take out the loan?
>
> --
> Mark Atwood | The summit of Mount Everest is marine limestone.
> m...@pobox.com |
> http://www.pobox.com/~mra
>
--
God Money's not looking for the cure.
God Money's not concerned with the sick among the pure.
God Money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
God Money's not one to choose -- Nine Inch Nails
Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster
> Kyri <ky...@usa.net> writes:
> > I see your point. But there are still a lot of people out there who
> > regard someone who literally does not have the money to pay their bills
> > as hardly better than a criminal. It would certainly take some large
> > legal and social changes for debtors' prison to become a reality again
> > but I wouldn't completely rule it out.
>
> I've *seen* why many people dont have "the money to pay their
> bills". Often yes, they are "victims of circumstance", but quite often
> they are because they did something *stupid*.
Like failing to have 20-20 foresight?
Kyri
Firstly, there is no way to get an advanced degree in the subject I was
interested in, medieval European history, in your average local
university. They do not offer Ph.D. programs in that subject. If I
wanted that degree, I had to go to a "fancy school" (UCLA). Now, had I
known that I wouldn't end up getting the Ph.D. and that a M.A. in the
subject does not translate into any form of employment, I might have
made different choices, but that's hindsight.
Secondly, I did work while I was earning the degree, but what that
brought in was not nearly sufficient to survive. Nor were the student
loans, actually.
Thirdly, no, I did not "know the deal going in". I knew the loans would
have to be paid back, obviously. I did not know that the interest would
be so high that none of my payments would go to principal. (It may have
been somewhere in the fine print. But I didn't feel like I had a choice
at the time about accepting the loans, anyway.)
This represents pretty much the exact tendency I'm talking about: Oh,
someone has debts? Well, obviously they chose to be poor and it's their
fault anyway.
Whatever.
In article <8ucgr8$6...@ritz.cec.wustl.edu>,
bb...@ritz.cec.wustl.edu (Brian B. Rodenborn) wrote:
> In article <m3r94m4...@flash.localdomain>,
> Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >Kyri <ky...@usa.net> writes:
>
> [ lengthy whinge about student loans ]
>
> >Were you forced to take out the loan?
>
> Of course not. I for one went to a public university, and worked the
entire
> time I was getting my undergrad. It took longer, mainly because I had
to
> work in the afternoon, and I was too lazy to go to early morning
classes.
> Still, I received a quality edimication, and had money in the bank
when
> I finished.
>
> Choosing to go to a fancy school on expensive loans is a choice you
make,
> but it's far from the only one. The Kyri knew the deal going in.
>
> --
> Next we can discuss what type of person puts their hate mail in their
> .SIG file for everyone to see. That could get interesting.
> - RATBoy (to me on rec.arts.tv)
>
--
Kyri
In article <8ucj07$d0v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Firebug <1fire...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> You don't think you have any prospects of ever making more money than
> you do now? Or having fewer expenses?
>
> - Firebug
>
Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster
> Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:m366ly3...@flash.localdomain...
> > If someone crunches the numbers, and decided that being in hock for
> > the rest of his life is a fair exchange for a thing he wants, then he
> > got wanted with his eyes open.
> >
> > If he decided it wasn't a fair trade, but did it anyway, tough.
> >
> > If he *didn't* crunch then numbers ahead of time, well then, again,
> > tough.
>
> Or perhaps they did crunch the numbers ahead of time, but circumstances
> didn't quite work out as they thought. Perhaps they haven't yet got that
> high paying job that will allow the loan to be paid off.
>
> But I guess in your world, nobody ever fails. Or if they do fail at
> anything, they deserve ALL of the crap that comes their way.
Is it time for a crossover with the thread about objectivity in "normal"
vs. "depressed" people?
Jonathan W Hendry
> This is already pretty much what is happening with student loan debt. I
> have a massive amount of student loan debt (which cannot be settled
> through personal bankruptcy). The interest is so high that whatever
> payments I can actually afford to make go to interest, not principal,
> and the total debt constantly increases.
Huh? What kind of loans do you have? Mine, at least, are a fixed
amortization system, with a set number of payments (10 years). Apart
from interest rate changes, the entire amount of interest is fixed
from the start. At the start you're mostly paying interest, but over
time the amount dedicated to paying off interest decreases and the
amount for principal increases. They recalculate the interest
if the rate rises, but they still want your loan paid off in
a fixed amount of time. Student loans are not open-ended
revolving credit.
Student loans tend not to have high interest rates, either. At least,
mine don't (under 10%). For really high rates, look at the
24% punitive rates charged by credit cards if you're late a few times.
I started college in 1989 and started paying in, IIRC, 1994 or 1995.
- Jon
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<Mart...@privat.utfors.se> wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:31:02 GMT, Kyri <ky...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>Would she not be the first lesbian US Supreme Court appointee in
>>history? (I'm assuming she's a lesbian because of the author bio on the
>>back of her books, which says she lives with her "partner".) That's
>>pretty significant, if it's true.
>
>Oh, is she the one Ann Crispin is partnered with?
Is this supposed to be funny? Ann's straight.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 9/28/00
My latest novel is NIGHT OF MADNESS
Mark Atwood
In my world, nobody is obligated to pick me up when I fail.
Mark Atwood
> "Mark Atwood" <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message news:m3zoja4...@flash.localdomain...
> > bills". Often yes, they are "victims of circumstance", but quite often
> > they are because they did something *stupid*.
>
> Like failing to have 20-20 foresight?
Anybody with a brain can have *some* foresight. It doesn't even
require being sentient.
ObSF: Didn't Miles have some line about "make *every* road lead to a
victory"?
Jason Bontrager
>
> Or perhaps they did crunch the numbers ahead of time, but
> circumstances didn't quite work out as they thought. Perhaps
> they haven't yet got that high paying job that will allow the
> loan to be paid off.
High paying job in "medieval European history"? Do such things
exist? Seriously, most people have a least a rough idea of what
the likely earning potential is of a given field when they go into
it. Willfully piling up debt to get a degree in a field that most
people can tell you isn't going to pay high returns is just bad
judgement. Why should I feel terribly bad about someone who
knowingly makes a bad call? If he desperately wanted the degree
he should have waited until he had the funds available to pay
for it rather than racking up an impossible debt. Debt bad.
Jason B.
--
"What sort of rites?" I enquired.
"*Unspeakable* ones," he said reproachfully.
ala Joe Slater
Jason Bontrager
>
> Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:m3zoja4...@flash.localdomain...
> > they are because they did something *stupid*.
>
> dying or letting die whichever dependant was sick.
Or they're stupid enough to pay for everything on credit and
then only pay the minimum monthly payment every time the bill
comes due. And then they compound it by never economizing and
always buying the most expensive item they can find even if the
item is of time-limited utility (eg. baby carriage). I know a
family that lives like this. I expect it all to end in tears.
Martin Soederstroem
>Would she not be the first lesbian US Supreme Court appointee in
>history? (I'm assuming she's a lesbian because of the author bio on the
>back of her books, which says she lives with her "partner".) That's
>pretty significant, if it's true.
Oh, is she the one Ann Crispin is partnered with?
--
Note new adress
Martin
John Boston
news:8uc919$no6$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca...
> In article <ps6j0t0nt2l1l0l9i...@4ax.com>,
> Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >On 29 Oct 2000 07:16:45 GMT, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote:
> >
> >>In article <xrEK5.5$NQ2....@news.abs.net>
> >> "Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> writes:
> >>
> >>>What are the best depictions of slavery in SF and fantasy novels?
> >>
> >> In the fantasy category, Anne Rice's "The Claiming of Sleeping
> >>Beauty" is one of my favorites. In the S/F catagory, I thought one of
> >>the better depictions can be found in Susan Matthews' "Bench" series.
> >
> >Urg.
> >
> >Cue Pete's "Susan Mathews is a sicko" rant.
>
> Probably I should put off mentioning she's on the short list for
> the next US Supreme Court appointment, then....
Oh, stop exaggerating. You liberals will say anything.
Actually, the list apparently starts with Judge
Edith Jones of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, who a week or two
ago voted to uphold the death sentence of a man whose lawyer slept
through parts of the trial.
John Boston