_Elantris_, Sanderson
Andrew Plotkin
and quite bad writing.
The characters are lively and thoroughly human (if not particularly
complex). There's a conversation near the beginning where Spunky
Princess is talking to Her Father The King, and it's a conversation.
Like two people would have. With occasional sarcasm and teasing. Why
is this something which feels incredibly rare to me in current
fantasy?
On the other hand, the politics, economics, and religion debates are
so clunky and blatant that everyone might as well be playing checkers.
Yes, as it turns out, indentured serfdom really *isn't* the optimal
economic model. Surprise.
The story is your basic puzzle plot in the middle of a political/
religious upheaval. In the middle of Generic Fantasy Kindom, there
used to be a city of demigods. Not just alien demigods, either; they
were all ordinary people who woke up one day with glowing skin,
immortality, and the ability to do magic. Having a mass source of free
food, healing, and so forth made rest of the country quite wealthy
(although the actual economic and political effects are completely
glossed over. There's a brief comment that the merchant guild
convinced the Elantrians to stop creating *luxury* goods out of thin
air, so that we can have jobs, please. This appears to be as far as
the author thought it through.)
Anyway, this was all great until the magic stopped working, ten years
ago. The Elantrians are now grey-skinned immortal weaklings who suffer
increasing levels of pain (their bodies don't heal, even from scrapes
or bruises) until they go insane. The transformation still visits
random ordinary citizens, but people don't look forward to it the way
they used to.
The government fell apart in the wake of the disaster, and the throne
was grabbed by a greedy idiot who's done a lousy job of rebuilding.
Also, the Intolerant Religious Hegemony from across the ocean has been
gulping down neighboring countries, and sees an opportunity to make a
clean sweep of the board. (Now that the filthy false Elantrian gods
have been cast down by the might of Jaddeth, don't you know. Again,
this is a mixed bag: the religion is wallpaper, but the Intolerant
Fanatical Priest they send is one of the best characters in the book.)
The book itself, of course, is a race to figure out What Happened ten
years ago, while everybody squabbles and plots over the throne. It's
perfectly readable stuff, if you ignore the basic silliness of all the
politics. The plotting is really very good -- several twisty bits at
the end caught me by surprise, despite being well set-up in advance.
There's a certain amount of Dumbledoring -- ah, people keeping secrets
from each other solely for plot tension reasons -- but the main plot
doesn't depend on that, just some of the romantic whipsawing.
Plus, big slap-bang magical finish. (With potential sequel hooks, but
the storyline is complete in this volume.)
So, I almost want to read this author's next book -- but the number of
times I smiled is balanced by the number of times I rolled my eyes and
groaned. Perhaps the comparison I'm looking for is to David Eddings,
from before you got tired of reading David Eddings. If Sanderson
manages to grow as a writer (the way Eddings didn't) he could be on to
something.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
James Nicoll
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Also, the Intolerant Religious Hegemony from across the ocean has been
>gulping down neighboring countries
Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too many and
decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and Processing across
the world.
"Yes, your gods are real. So are the ones of the people you were
slaughtering before we took over. No, you can't do that anymore. No, they
are not allowed one free go to get even. Yes, you still hate each other
but your grandchildren won't. No, they won't hate us either: we have a
_lot_ of practice at this. It is why we are absorbing the world and you
are not. Yes, feel free to resist: it's a natural reaction, we won't get
angry and it never makes a difference in the long run anyway."
James Nicoll
* I guess that would be the God of Lawyers.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
David Cowie
>
> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
> God of Negotiated Relationships*
...
>
> * I guess that would be the God of Lawyers.
Nothing to do with "ladies of negotiable affection", then?
--
David Cowie
Containment Failure + 14981:01
Andrew Plotkin
> In article <dcgqbk$d5j$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>
> >Also, the Intolerant Religious Hegemony from across the ocean has been
> >gulping down neighboring countries
>
> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion.
It was wallpaper, like I said. The priest was better: he was
fanatically dedicated to saving souls for his convert-or-die religion,
and the reason was, if he didn't get people to Convert, there would be
a whole lot of the Die option, as soon as the hegemony's army showed
up. He *really wanted* everyone to convert.
> The God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too
> many and decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and
> Processing across the world.
>
> "Yes, your gods are real. So are the ones of the people you were
> slaughtering before we took over. No, you can't do that anymore. No, they
> are not allowed one free go to get even. Yes, you still hate each other
> but your grandchildren won't. No, they won't hate us either: we have a
> _lot_ of practice at this. It is why we are absorbing the world and you
> are not. Yes, feel free to resist: it's a natural reaction, we won't get
> angry and it never makes a difference in the long run anyway."
I guess the problem is, how do you convince everybody to carry and
spread the meme of LC&P when you're telling them they can keep their
own beliefs?
The reason hegemonizing-swarm religions are such a cliche is that we
understand the memetic model: everyone converts (or dies) to the new
set of beliefs, which include the belief that everyone else ought to
convert (or die).
To spread your version, you need to detach the tolerance idea from the
religion, per se, and make it part of some other belief-set which can
be indifferent to religion.
(This is more or less the Culture's model. "You can believe what you
want, but our technology cures disease, eradicates hunger, and makes
sex better. It also makes it both pointless and difficult to enforce
any particular beliefs on anyone else[*]. But, you know, keep up the
church-going if you like.")
[* Except for the Minds, who could rewrite everyone's brain in two
seconds if they felt like it, but they happen not to. This, as we
have exhaustively discussed, was inherent in the Culture model to
begin with.]
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
> God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too many and
> decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and Processing across
> the world.
>
> "Yes, your gods are real. So are the ones of the people you were
> slaughtering before we took over. No, you can't do that anymore. No, they
> are not allowed one free go to get even. Yes, you still hate each other
> but your grandchildren won't. No, they won't hate us either: we have a
> _lot_ of practice at this. It is why we are absorbing the world and you
> are not. Yes, feel free to resist: it's a natural reaction, we won't get
> angry and it never makes a difference in the long run anyway."
Lackey's Valdemar is a very passive version of that. (They
wait until you beg to be annexed.)
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - email: gae...@aol.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/
David Bilek
(snip interesting review)
>
>So, I almost want to read this author's next book -- but the number of
>times I smiled is balanced by the number of times I rolled my eyes and
>groaned. Perhaps the comparison I'm looking for is to David Eddings,
>from before you got tired of reading David Eddings.
So, like, age 14 then?
Thanks for the review. I'll skip this one, I think.
-David
Margaret Young
Huzzah.
Hegemony and Tolerance--quite a combination.
--
Margaret Young
________________________________________________________
Come the apocalypse there will be cockroaches, Keith Richards and the
faint smell of cat pee.
Andrew Plotkin
> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>
> (snip interesting review)
>
> >
> >So, I almost want to read this author's next book -- but the number of
> >times I smiled is balanced by the number of times I rolled my eyes and
> >groaned. Perhaps the comparison I'm looking for is to David Eddings,
> >from before you got tired of reading David Eddings.
>
> So, like, age 14 then?
This one's 18.
Nancy Lebovitz
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>Also, the Intolerant Religious Hegemony from across the ocean has been
>>gulping down neighboring countries
>
> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
>God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too many and
>decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and Processing across
>the world.
>
> "Yes, your gods are real. So are the ones of the people you were
>slaughtering before we took over. No, you can't do that anymore. No, they
>are not allowed one free go to get even. Yes, you still hate each other
>but your grandchildren won't. No, they won't hate us either: we have a
>_lot_ of practice at this. It is why we are absorbing the world and you
>are not. Yes, feel free to resist: it's a natural reaction, we won't get
>angry and it never makes a difference in the long run anyway."
Cool, and rather refreshing, but do you use natural disasters to drive
your plot, or what?
Or do small-scale stories about people who are somewhat less crazy
than most of what you run into when you aren't reading?
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Danny Sichel
> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
> God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too many and
> decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and Processing across
> the world.
> "Yes, your gods are real. So are the ones of the people you were
> slaughtering before we took over. No, you can't do that anymore. No, they
> are not allowed one free go to get even. Yes, you still hate each other
> but your grandchildren won't. No, they won't hate us either: we have a
> _lot_ of practice at this. It is why we are absorbing the world and you
> are not. Yes, feel free to resist: it's a natural reaction, we won't get
> angry and it never makes a difference in the long run anyway."
... I will buy this when it comes out, James.
David Bilek
Sounds like a fantasy version of The Culture. Very much so.
-David
Jo'Asia
> James Nicoll wrote:
>> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
>> God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too many and
>> decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and Processing across
>> the world.
>> "Yes, your gods are real. So are the ones of the people you were
>> slaughtering before we took over. No, you can't do that anymore. No, they
>> are not allowed one free go to get even. Yes, you still hate each other
>> but your grandchildren won't. No, they won't hate us either: we have a
>> _lot_ of practice at this. It is why we are absorbing the world and you
>> are not. Yes, feel free to resist: it's a natural reaction, we won't get
>> angry and it never makes a difference in the long run anyway."
> Lackey's Valdemar is a very passive version of that. (They
> wait until you beg to be annexed.)
My memories are somewhat vague but what about the Eastern Empire from the
same world? They are conquering their neighbours, but I can't remember
anything about the religion(s)...
Jo'Asia
--
__.-=-. -< Joanna Slupek >----------------------< http://esensja.pl/ >-
--<()> -< joasia @ hell . pl >------< http://bujold.fantastyka.net/ >-
.__.'| -< "I believe a medical attack could be successful."
"Surgical attack, Teal'c" {Stargate SG-1, Teal'c & Jack } >-
James Nicoll
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <dcgr6d$gkg$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Also, the Intolerant Religious Hegemony from across the ocean has been
>>>gulping down neighboring countries
>>
>> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
>>God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too many and
>>decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and Processing across
>>the world.
>>
>> "Yes, your gods are real. So are the ones of the people you were
>>slaughtering before we took over. No, you can't do that anymore. No, they
>>are not allowed one free go to get even. Yes, you still hate each other
>>but your grandchildren won't. No, they won't hate us either: we have a
>>_lot_ of practice at this. It is why we are absorbing the world and you
>>are not. Yes, feel free to resist: it's a natural reaction, we won't get
>>angry and it never makes a difference in the long run anyway."
>
>Cool, and rather refreshing, but do you use natural disasters to drive
>your plot, or what?
>
>Or do small-scale stories about people who are somewhat less crazy
>than most of what you run into when you aren't reading?
How about comic tales of futile rebellion by a tiny, motivated force
against one so much larger that the annual death toll from tea mishaps is
several orders of magnitude large than anything the TMF can put together?
Andrew Plotkin
> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote in
> news:dcgqbk$d5j$1...@reader2.panix.com:
> > The story is your basic puzzle plot in the middle of a political/
> > religious upheaval. In the middle of Generic Fantasy Kindom, there
> > used to be a city of demigods. Not just alien demigods, either; they
> > were all ordinary people who woke up one day with glowing skin,
> > immortality, and the ability to do magic. Having a mass source of free
> > food, healing, and so forth made rest of the country quite wealthy
> > (although the actual economic and political effects are completely
> > glossed over. There's a brief comment that the merchant guild
> > convinced the Elantrians to stop creating *luxury* goods out of thin
> > air, so that we can have jobs, please. This appears to be as far as
> > the author thought it through.)
>
> calmed society down somewhat?
I don't remember such a comment.
Nancy Lebovitz
That'd be fun.
Or you could complicate the emotional tone by making it comic from outside
the rebellion and tragic from inside it.
James Nicoll
Ah, like teen romance: tragic from the inside, hilarious from the
outside.
Johan Larson
"Danny Sichel" <dsi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bHYGe.8604$q23.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
To make a drama work, something has to Go Wrong. What could possibly Go
Wrong in a book like this?
Johan Larson
James Nicoll
Par
> >> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
> >> God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too many and
> >> decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and Processing across
> >> the world.
> To make a drama work, something has to Go Wrong. What could possibly Go
> Wrong in a book like this?
Just write most of it from the hegemonisees(?), with some small schenes
from the other side. Lots of planning the heroic acts of rebellion,
climax-type situation when heroics happen, and then cut to the office of
the HTR General in charge of the region, where the issus is being
discussed.
"The rebels mutilated some draft oxen/did some minor damage to one
of our spaceships/painted their hands yellow and chained themselves to
the doors of the local K-Mart/ today. I wonder if they'll keep it up for
more than a decade or two... I'll send someone out tomorrow to their
headquarters to explain once more that it is futile."
/Par
--
Par use...@hunter-gatherer.org
[Y]ou should write for the comprehension of the next programmer who
looks at your code, keep it clean and sensible, and *not* play
any obscure Jedi mind-tricks. -- Anthony de Boer
Wolfspawn
The humans resist by committing race-suicide.
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu
> In article <dcgqbk$d5j$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>
> >Also, the Intolerant Religious Hegemony from across the ocean has been
> >gulping down neighboring countries
>
> Just once, I'd like to see a Hegemonistic Tolerant Religion. The
> God of Negotiated Relationships* goes Dingo after one war too many and
> decides to spread the creed of Listening Carefully and Processing across
> the world.
>
> "Yes, your gods are real. So are the ones of the people you were
> slaughtering before we took over. No, you can't do that anymore. No, they
> are not allowed one free go to get even. Yes, you still hate each other
> but your grandchildren won't. No, they won't hate us either: we have a
> _lot_ of practice at this. It is why we are absorbing the world and you
> are not. Yes, feel free to resist: it's a natural reaction, we won't get
> angry and it never makes a difference in the long run anyway."
Sounds a bit like Clarke's overlords. And in a sense they
really were the priests of a god.
--
William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University
Mike Schilling
<wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:yv7zwtn5...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu...
Sounds a bit like the Roman Empire too.
"Yes, you're free to worship your gods, but you need to worship a few of
ours too." It worked pretty well, with *almost* everyone.
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu
I hadn't thought of that, but it works. Of course the Romans
(at least in the republic) threw in another clause:
"Now we're going to give you a governor who bankrupted himself
to get this job and he's going to tax you like you've never
been taxed before".
> "Yes, you're free to worship your gods, but you need to worship a few of
> ours too."
During the persecutions of the 250s Christians were required to
sprinkle an ounce or so of spice onto a pagan altar, or eat a
similar amount of meat from a sacrificed animal. On doing that
they got a certificate which was good for a year before they had
to do it again.
> It worked pretty well, with *almost* everyone.
Dratted monotheists (or three-in-onetheists).
Alexander Kay
Stross' _Singularity Sky_ has some of that sort of dynamic. The grossly
under-powered force which comically tries to attack the greater force that
really just wanted to help (or at least, trade in a mutually beneficial
manner).
Alexx
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers.
alexx@carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx
"Forget computers; it's hard enough getting humans to pass the Turing test."
-- David Bedno
Stanislaus B.
Nicoll) wrote:
> How about comic tales of futile rebellion by a tiny, motivated force
>against one so much larger that the annual death toll from tea mishaps is
>several orders of magnitude large than anything the TMF can put together?
Yes, those explosions in London were so much fun - not for me. I don't
care one way or another for the British, but it still doesn't seem
funny.
James Nicoll
Omixochitl <omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Stanislaus B. <strai...@trash.us> wrote in
>news:60eaf1ptkmqmjlc1m...@4ax.com:
>me a bit of this:
>
>http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15794
There's also the group of Middle Eastern bombers who did themselves
in a while back because they got confused by Daylight Savings Time and set
the timers on their bombs incorrectly.
There's an ObSF here from Clarke, I think.
Steve Coltrin
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> writes:
> There's a certain amount of Dumbledoring -- ah, people keeping secrets
> from each other solely for plot tension reasons --
Tch. Robert Jordan was doing that every third page back before Albus
Dumbledore was an itch in Jo Rowling's fingertips.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Tom Cruise can kiss my ass
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
William December Starr
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> said:
> (This is more or less the Culture's model. "You can believe what
> you want, but our technology cures disease, eradicates hunger, and
> makes sex better. It also makes it both pointless and difficult to
> enforce any particular beliefs on anyone else[*]. But, you know,
> keep up the church-going if you like.")
>
> [* Except for the Minds, who could rewrite everyone's brain in two
> seconds if they felt like it, but they happen not to. This, as we
> have exhaustively discussed, was inherent in the Culture model to
> begin with.]
[** Unless you're the Affront, in which case you can keep on
enforcing your "It's okay for us to inflict lots of pain and
suffering on weaker sapient beings within our jurisdiction, just
because we want to (and it's Fun!)" beliefs, because we're not going
to use our vastly superior force to step in and stop you because,
um, well, we just aren't, that's all."]
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>> Cool, and rather refreshing, but do you use natural disasters to
>> drive your plot, or what?
>>
>> Or do small-scale stories about people who are somewhat less crazy
>> than most of what you run into when you aren't reading?
>> [Nancy Lebovitz]
>
> How about comic tales of futile rebellion by a tiny, motivated
> force against one so much larger that the annual death toll from
> tea mishaps is several orders of magnitude large than anything the
> TMF can put together?
Even better, how about comic tales of how the vastly superior
benevolent force goes to great extremes to manipulate events so that
the tiny motivated force doesn't merely fail without anyone getting
hurt but in fact fails in spectacularly silly and embarrassing --
and, of course, vastly entertaining to everyone else -- ways?
(You know, sort of like how _How Much for Just the Planet?_ might
have been if it hadn't been so bad that it could have sucked the
chrome off of neutron star material through a one-barn diameter
straw...)
Sean Eric Fagan
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>[** Unless you're the Affront, in which case you can keep on
>enforcing your "It's okay for us to inflict lots of pain and
>suffering on weaker sapient beings within our jurisdiction, just
>because we want to (and it's Fun!)" beliefs, because we're not going
>to use our vastly superior force to step in and stop you because,
>um, well, we just aren't, that's all."]
That's not quite at all accurate.
The Culture wasn't up to using its vastly superior force because they'd just
gotten out of a long, and immensely damaging war. Which they won, of course,
but the ramifications from it were still ringing through the Culture.
So they were, for the moment, attempting to use their standard, subtler means.
Which weren't having much of an effect yet -- the Affront managed to drive one
Culture-peer into Sublimation, rather than keep trying to work with the
Affront.
As presented, the Affront were a conundrum for Special Circumstances: too
vile to ignore, and not quite vile enough to attack. It'd be akin to the USA
attacking Guatamala -- politically unacceptable, both internally and
externally.
Had the events in EXCESSION not happened, it's likely that some more direct
intervention would have occurred. Since they did happen, however, it was
stated that the Affront had been frightened, and were going along the path of
cleaning up. A bit, anyway.
William December Starr
s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) said:
> The Culture wasn't up to using its vastly superior force because
> they'd just gotten out of a long, and immensely damaging war.
> Which they won, of course, but the ramifications from it were
> still ringing through the Culture.
Hadn't it been some number of centuries since the war? The figure
"five hundred years" keeps coming to mind, but I haven't (re)read
_Excession_ since first it came out. I'm almost certain that they
hadn't "just" gotten out of the war.
> So they were, for the moment, attempting to use their standard,
> subtler means. Which weren't having much of an effect yet -- the
> Affront managed to drive one Culture-peer into Sublimation, rather
> than keep trying to work with the Affront.
>
> As presented, the Affront were a conundrum for Special
> Circumstances: too vile to ignore, and not quite vile enough to
> attack. It'd be akin to the USA attacking Guatamala --
> politically unacceptable, both internally and externally.
And that Banks just didn't convince me of. They certainly looked
bad enough to me.
Sean Eric Fagan
>"five hundred years" keeps coming to mind, but I haven't (re)read
>_Excession_ since first it came out. I'm almost certain that they
>hadn't "just" gotten out of the war.
A small number of centuries. When the humanoids live three centuries, and the
drones and Minds are immortal, a small number of centuries is nothing.
Again with the analogies, consider the US invading Guatemala in the early
1980's.
>And that Banks just didn't convince me of. They certainly looked
>bad enough to me.
Well, the theory is that the Affront are Banks' presentation of the Draka.
But here's the thing: the Affront aren't blowing up star systems. Their
invading has been (as I recall) massively curtailed. They aren't attempting
to use violence ot turn any other peoples into their slaves (or food).
On the scale of things in the Culture universe... they're a minor, probably
short-lived, annoyance. And that was the crux of the dilemma the Culture
found itself in with them: not enough of a threat (to the Culture or to
anyone else) to justify a war, and not harmless enough to simply ignore.
Of course, as the events of EXCESSION indicated, there was in fact a plot
involving the Affront, and one of the side-effects of that plot's goal would
have been to wipe the Affront out from the universe.
Gene Ward Smith
Sean Eric Fagan wrote:
> Again with the analogies, consider the US invading Guatemala in the early
> 1980's.
Let's make it completely absurd and imagine the US invading Grenada.