Aragorn's height
tomlinson
OK, new thread here.
The question is asked: how is it known that Aragorn is seven foot six?
(Double passive. :-b)
Tolkien, in _Unfinished Tales_, devotes a few paragraphs to Numenorean
units of length. A "ranga", the basic unit, is slightly less than a
meter; it's "one pace", basically. "Man-high" comprises two "ranga".
Galadriel is "man-high", and I think she is supposedly taller than
the average female elf. Elendil is very tall; I once calculated his
height at something over eight feet. Such height in ordinary humans
is, to put the matter bluntly, lethal; Robert Wadlow, the "tallest
man ever", died in his twenties for this reason.
Tolkien might have mentioned that Aragorn is taller than your
average Numenorean, but I don't remember his pinning the figure
down to anything like the precision of Graydon's figure of 7' 6".
-et (about two inches shy of "man-high" myself)
--
Anyone recommend a good | E. Tomlinson | http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~edu
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| mail flowed in at the usual rate. Ah, well.
Graydon
In article <5tisng$i33$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>Tolkien might have mentioned that Aragorn is taller than your
>average Numenorean, but I don't remember his pinning the figure
>down to anything like the precision of Graydon's figure of 7' 6".
He doesn't pine the figure down; what we get is two things.
At the coronation scene, Aragorn stops doing whatever it is that he does
so he's not obviously kingly, and it can be seen that he's the tallest
man there, in a room full of the noble men of Gondor.
There is a mention in :The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: that Aragorn is
'most like to Elendil' of all the Kings in Exile; this can be taken as
refering to his stature as well as his personality.
--
gra...@gooroos.com | Praise ice when it is crossed,
is bouncing again Ale when it is drunk,
try pir...@pobox.com The day at evening-time,
with 'for graydon' in the subject line Domain service when it works.
Chad R Orzel
Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
{Aragorn is 7'6"?}
>>I can't see Aragorn being much over "man-high" myself, if that; if
>>he really were a foot or more taller than the average height for a
>>_Numenorean_, then he'd be a giant to the people on the pavement
>>(your average citizen of Gondor or Rohan.) That Aragorn is able
>>to make himself more-or-less inconspicuous among the people of Bree,
>>Gondor, and Rohan I take as an indication that he's no bigger than
>>you or I.
>
>I take it as an indication that whatever he does healing with is also
>useful for keeping people from seeing him clearly; he is pretty obviously
>able to look innocuous as suits him, and it might not just be by turning
>the True King field off.
That's some trick...
By way of perspective, consider a sports analogy: Michael Jordan is
roughly 6'6", and doesn't appear to be much off the average for the NBA-
it's only occasionally, when you see him standing next to a referee, that
you know he's big. There's no hiding Gheorghe Muresan, though- even in a
crowd that makes Jordan seem reasonably average, Muresan _towers_ over
everybody. And he's a bit shy of 7'6", IIRC...
For a more general example, I stand 6'6", and there's absolutely no way
for me to be "inconspicuous" even among my close friends from college
(who average about 6'1"). Standing next to someone who's 5'6" I look
almost comic.
And I knew a guy in college who was 7'2", and he positively _loomed_ over
me...
"Look[ing] innocuous" doesn't cover it- we're talking _invisibility,_
here... A 1' height difference is _enormous,_ and hiding that would
require no small magic.
Later,
OilCan
(Yeah, yeah, it's a fantasy novel, but _still_...)
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <5tktnd$b...@rac4.wam.umd.edu>,
Chad R Orzel <oil...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>>tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>
>{Aragorn is 7'6"?}
>>>I can't see Aragorn being much over "man-high" myself, if that; if
>>>he really were a foot or more taller than the average height for a
>>>_Numenorean_, then he'd be a giant to the people on the pavement
>>>(your average citizen of Gondor or Rohan.) That Aragorn is able
>>>to make himself more-or-less inconspicuous among the people of Bree,
>>>Gondor, and Rohan I take as an indication that he's no bigger than
>>>you or I.
>>
>>I take it as an indication that whatever he does healing with is also
>>useful for keeping people from seeing him clearly; he is pretty obviously
>>able to look innocuous as suits him, and it might not just be by turning
>>the True King field off.
>
he looks impressive or slightly frightening.
The nearest thing I know of to the True King field is a story about
Marilyn Monroe being able to go out in public and just appear to
be fairly good-looking--and then take on her Aspect and be instantly
recognizable.
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Andrew Plotkin
Graydon (gra...@gooroos.com) wrote:
> >BTW, where'd you get the 6' 6" as "man-high"? I make it 6' 2"
> >(I'm 6' 0", hence "two inches shy.")
> :Unfinished Tales: gives one ranga as 39 inches; two ranga as the typical
> adult male height.
Typical among who? Elf or human, and what ethnicity?
Actually, I strike the question. If the ranga is "one pace", then of
*course* two ranga is the typical adult height; that's true in every
humanoid population, Numenoreans or hobbits or pygmies. Heh. The question
is, which species and which ethnic group defined the ranga?
> That's six foot six; Galadriel is man high, which is
> one of the problems with casting her if there were ever to be a movie.
Since the movie doesn't contain any Earth-modern artifacts, much less a
meterstick, you could just scale all the people down 10% or so. You still
have to find a man-high woman to play Galadriel, but this is easier if it
means six feet even.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
John Fairhurst
>For a more general example, I stand 6'6", and there's absolutely
no way
for me to be "inconspicuous" even among my close friends from
college
(who average about 6'1"). Standing next to someone who's 5'6" I
look
almost comic.<
go over 6'. I am 6' 2", or there abouts :-) and am not
head-and-shoulders noticeable.
As to Aragorn, he seems to spend a lot of his time in Bree in the
shadows away from the firelight so keeping inconspicuous in this
form, but later on when speaking to the Hobbits, he manages to
terrify poor Barliman by a good bit of looming. During his time
in Gondor, he was noticeable, though whether by his actions or
his stature is more questionable
--
John Fairhurst
Graydon
In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Graydon (gra...@gooroos.com) wrote:
>> >BTW, where'd you get the 6' 6" as "man-high"? I make it 6' 2"
>> >(I'm 6' 0", hence "two inches shy.")
>> :Unfinished Tales: gives one ranga as 39 inches; two ranga as the typical
>> adult male height.
>
>Typical among who? Elf or human, and what ethnicity?
Numenoreans; royalty was taller, Noldor averaged about the same but with
sometimes much taller royalty, ISTR that Maedhros was well over eight
feet tall.
>> That's six foot six; Galadriel is man high, which is
>> one of the problems with casting her if there were ever to be a movie.
>
>Since the movie doesn't contain any Earth-modern artifacts, much less a
>meterstick, you could just scale all the people down 10% or so. You still
>have to find a man-high woman to play Galadriel, but this is easier if it
>means six feet even.
Sure, and then you have to find people to play three foot even hobbits.
Life action would take serious computer scaling work, I think.
Graydon
In article <5tl5ab$h...@universe.digex.net>,
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>>useful for keeping people from seeing him clearly; he is pretty obviously
>>>able to look innocuous as suits him, and it might not just be by turning
>>>the True King field off.
>Is there any evidence that he can look innocuous? Afaik, either
>he looks impressive or slightly frightening.
He's 'just Strider' in Bree; I take that as evidence that he's looking
innocuous by some means, since when he was Thorongil people followed him
by reflex; whatever the charisma is, it appears he can shut it off.
>The nearest thing I know of to the True King field is a story about
>Marilyn Monroe being able to go out in public and just appear to
>be fairly good-looking--and then take on her Aspect and be instantly
>recognizable.
Yup. There are candid photos that show the change, too, it's quite
astonishing.
There is a whole lot that gets communicated by stance and general body
language that's very hard to follow; know someone who suffers from not
being able to turn off a set of mannerisms that cause 'ouch, you're
standing on my foot' to be taken as flirting.
Graydon
In article <33fe1061...@news1.mid-ga.com>,
Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> wrote:
>But irrespective of Aragorn's True King field, it is mentioned in 'The
>King of the Golden Hall', rather casually, that he and Legolas were
>'fitted with shining mail' from 'the king's hoard'. Aragorn can't be
'Gifts from Gondor long ago' - they had some Numenorean size mail in
the hoard, in other words.
Mail is somewhat size indifferent, as well, it's a knit. :]
John & Linda VanSickle
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> In article <33fe1061...@news1.mid-ga.com>,
> Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> wrote:
>
> >much taller than the Rohirrim if they had stuff his size in stock....
>
> True, no doubt, but keep in mind that it's easier to fit somebody
> into off-the-rack chainmail than for a tailored suit--or even
> worse, plate armour. Mail flexes. I remember my son, aged about
> six, putting on a knight's hauberk and wearing it to a
> convention. OK, the knight wasn't among our tallest, and what
> hung to his knees hung to David's ankles, but he could have
> fought in it if we'd given him a shortsword. The same hauberk
> can fit a guy 6'6" and massive or a lady 5'5" and small-boned--
> it will just hang lower on her than on him. Conceivably the
> longest hauberk they had in stock hit Aragorn well above the knee,
> but it was still better than nothing.
It should be noted here that wearing a shirt that is too big poses
much fewer problems than trying to wear a shirt that is too small.
A mail shirt that is too small will ride up quite a ways, and there
is a definite limit on how much stretching a shirt can do.
Unless Aragorn has the physique of Ichabod Crane, his chest is
larger than the chest of a shorter man, but because of his height this
is not usually very obvious. The greatly limits the sizes of
chainmail that he can wear.
Lord, I'm in a thread about the height of a fictional character. I
need to get a life.
--
Dantalion will ride again the course of evils standing straight
Hot metal will abound the land as the form regards our blazing hand
Jo Walton
In article <5tsq00$2...@excalibur.gooroos.com>
gra...@gooroos.com "Graydon" writes:
> In article <33fe1061...@news1.mid-ga.com>,
> Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> wrote:
> >But irrespective of Aragorn's True King field, it is mentioned in 'The
> >King of the Golden Hall', rather casually, that he and Legolas were
> >'fitted with shining mail' from 'the king's hoard'. Aragorn can't be
>
> 'Gifts from Gondor long ago' - they had some Numenorean size mail in
> the hoard, in other words.
>
> Mail is somewhat size indifferent, as well, it's a knit. :]
How tall was Eowyn?
(Finally the _real_ reason Aragorn said no... :)
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blood of Kings Poems at http://www.kenjo.demon.co.uk/
Some of mine, some of Graydon's, some bits & pieces...
new Proserpina poem at http://www.sfsite.com/darkplanet
Simon van Dongen
On or about 25 Aug 1997 16:29:52 -0400, Graydon wrote:
>In article <33fe1061...@news1.mid-ga.com>,
>Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> wrote:
>>But irrespective of Aragorn's True King field, it is mentioned in 'The
>>King of the Golden Hall', rather casually, that he and Legolas were
>>'fitted with shining mail' from 'the king's hoard'. Aragorn can't be
>
>'Gifts from Gondor long ago' - they had some Numenorean size mail in
>the hoard, in other words.
>
>Mail is somewhat size indifferent, as well, it's a knit. :]
Selective quoting:
'gifts to my fathers out of Gondor long ago' (TT p.127 Unwin hardback)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That would still imply Rohirrim-sized. And given the estimated size
that started this thread (7'6" = 2.25 meters), that would be a long
stretch.
But leaving all that aside, isn't it easier to assume that, on 'royal'
occasions, Aragorn could/did seem taller, rather than that he'd
somehow conned the world into thinking him shorter than he was for
most of his 87 years before the War of the Ring?
Simon van Dongen
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> Rotterdam, The Netherlands
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the
unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it.
To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. I may submit to
the unknown, but never to the unknowable. The man who bows in that
final direction is either a saint or a fool. I have no use for
either." 'Lord of Light', Roger Zelazny
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Graydon
In article <872714...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <5tsq00$2...@excalibur.gooroos.com>
> gra...@gooroos.com "Graydon" writes:
>> Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> wrote:
>> >But irrespective of Aragorn's True King field, it is mentioned in 'The
>> >King of the Golden Hall', rather casually, that he and Legolas were
>> >'fitted with shining mail' from 'the king's hoard'. Aragorn can't be
>>
>> 'Gifts from Gondor long ago' - they had some Numenorean size mail in
>> the hoard, in other words.
>>
>> Mail is somewhat size indifferent, as well, it's a knit. :]
>
It doesn't say, but she's not too far off Faramir's height, if their hair
can blend together in the wind when they're standing on the wall.
Faramir is almost pureblood Numenorean, plus noble and valorous; he's
probably six-eight ish. Eowyn is thereby probably six four or so. (Which
fits into having the arm and shoulder oomph to decapitate the giant
pterodactyl.) The House of Eorl is a tall family in general, with
considerable Gondorian/Numenorean blood in it.
>(Finally the _real_ reason Aragorn said no... :)
Arwen's probably only six six herself, he's _still_ a foot taller.
Anton Sherwood
: Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >How tall was Eowyn?
: >(Finally the _real_ reason Aragorn said no... :)
Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> writes
: [...] Eowyn is thereby probably six four or so. [...]
: Arwen's probably only six six herself, he's _still_ a foot taller.
Hey, I was married for ten years to someone 16 inches shorter.
Aragorn can't afford to be that picky. ;)
--
Anton Sherwood ** +1 415 267 0685 ** DASher at netcom point com
"How'd ya like to climb this high WITHOUT no mountain?" --Porky Pine 70.6.19
Graydon
In article <dasherEF...@netcom.com>,
Anton Sherwood <das...@netcom.com> wrote:
>: Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>: >How tall was Eowyn?
>: >(Finally the _real_ reason Aragorn said no... :)
>
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> writes
>: [...] Eowyn is thereby probably six four or so. [...]
>: Arwen's probably only six six herself, he's _still_ a foot taller.
>
>Hey, I was married for ten years to someone 16 inches shorter.
>Aragorn can't afford to be that picky. ;)
He's not going to find someone his own height, that's for blessed sure.
But I think it could be said that he was a picky as it is possible to be,
in terms of who he wanted to marry.
Jo Walton
In article <5u2nei$5...@excalibur.gooroos.com>
gra...@gooroos.com "Graydon" writes:
> In article <872714...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
> Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >How tall was Eowyn?
>
> It doesn't say, but she's not too far off Faramir's height, if their hair
> can blend together in the wind when they're standing on the wall.
>
> Faramir is almost pureblood Numenorean, plus noble and valorous; he's
> probably six-eight ish. Eowyn is thereby probably six four or so. (Which
> fits into having the arm and shoulder oomph to decapitate the giant
> pterodactyl.) The House of Eorl is a tall family in general, with
> considerable Gondorian/Numenorean blood in it.
And Elvish blood, through Amroth and Nimrodel via Morwen of Lossarnach,
IIRC.
She's certainly tall enough that Merry doesn't twig she's not a man,
and indeed strong enough that Elfhelm and other sensible Riders know
she can take her place in the shield wall, and strong enough in the
event to kill the fell creature and the Nazgul. We don't know if she's
actually tall enough to pass for a man among the Rohirrim - we don't
know who, if anyone, besides Merry, was fooled. (She was 24, so she'd
have looked like a man of about 19, most likely - not so young as not
to need to shave.)
> >(Finally the _real_ reason Aragorn said no... :)
>
> Arwen's probably only six six herself, he's _still_ a foot taller.
A foot is just about OK, IME. More than that is probably inconvenient.
tomlinson
Graydon (gra...@gooroos.com) wrote:
: But I think it could be said that he was a picky as it is possible to be,
: in terms of who he wanted to marry.
^^^
"Whom"! "Whom he wanted to marry"! God almighty...
^^^^
Does Tolkien clearly state, in _Lord of the Rings_ or anywhere else,
how old Aragorn was when he first saw Arwen in Rivendell ("Tinuviel!"
etc.) I am under the impression that he was a just a kid, still too
young to be let out of the house by foster-father Elrond.
Indeed, a search of my memory turns up very few stories of first love
turned sour. Most of Tolkien's youthful infatuations end relatively
happily (Aragorn and Arwen, Beren and Tinuviel, all the way back to
Melian and that moron Thingol at the beginning of time.) I can
remember only two unhappy love-affairs out of Tolkien, those of
Turin Turambar and (uh) Finduilas (but Turin was "born to lose",
cursed from the start), and Idril and Maeglin (whose frustrated
desire leads him down the primrose way to the everlasting bonfire.)
Cheers,
-et (turambar, turambaris, turambatur, turambamur, turambamini,
turambantur...just practicing...)
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson | http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~et
-------------------------------------------------------
"I thought it was high time that someone did for Bach what Copland did
for Lincoln, what Beethoven did for Wellington, what Tchaikovsky did
for Little Russians, and what Richard Strauss did for himself."
Dorothy J Heydt
In article <872791...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>He was 20. She was 2710, talk about an older woman. :]
>
>Tolkien was 18 when he met his future wife - his letter to his son
>Michael about it is the one that I cited chapter and verse to
>yesterday so it is in my mind.
She was older than he was too, but not by any two millennia.
(But Father What's-his-name still thought it was dreadful.)
>> -et (turambar, turambaris, turambatur, turambamur, turambamini,
>> turambantur...just practicing...)
>
>The poor guy was anything but passively moved, hey?
>
>I think Turin had enough bad things happen to him when he was alive
>without you making fun of his name.
Well, you never know, if he'd survived he might have become a
deponent....
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@uclink
(My account might go away at any moment; if I disappear, I haven't died.)
Jo Walton
In article <5u4982$5gm$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>
etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu "tomlinson" writes:
>
> Does Tolkien clearly state, in _Lord of the Rings_ or anywhere else,
> how old Aragorn was when he first saw Arwen in Rivendell ("Tinuviel!"
> etc.) I am under the impression that he was a just a kid, still too
> young to be let out of the house by foster-father Elrond.
He was 20. She was 2710, talk about an older woman. :]
Tolkien was 18 when he met his future wife - his letter to his son
Michael about it is the one that I cited chapter and verse to
yesterday so it is in my mind.
> Indeed, a search of my memory turns up very few stories of first love
> turned sour. Most of Tolkien's youthful infatuations end relatively
> happily (Aragorn and Arwen, Beren and Tinuviel, all the way back to
> Melian and that moron Thingol at the beginning of time.) I can
What a way of putting it. He certainly did appear to believe in love
at first sight.
> remember only two unhappy love-affairs out of Tolkien, those of
> Turin Turambar and (uh) Finduilas (but Turin was "born to lose",
> cursed from the start), and Idril and Maeglin (whose frustrated
> desire leads him down the primrose way to the everlasting bonfire.)
Eowyn's love-at-first-sight for Aragorn is thwarted, too.
It seems the alternatives in Middle Earth were destined love, an
arranged marriage, or a fairly happy unmarried life - lots of people
never married or married very late, we don't see _any_ dating and
- am I right - no adultery at all.
> Cheers,
> -et (turambar, turambaris, turambatur, turambamur, turambamini,
> turambantur...just practicing...)
The poor guy was anything but passively moved, hey?
I think Turin had enough bad things happen to him when he was alive
without you making fun of his name.
--
SFRevu
I always assumed Aragorn was 6"2" tall with sandy blond hair and a
lopsided grin...oops. That would be me.
Ernest
Graydon
In article <5u4982$5gm$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>Does Tolkien clearly state, in _Lord of the Rings_ or anywhere else,
>how old Aragorn was when he first saw Arwen in Rivendell ("Tinuviel!"
>etc.) I am under the impression that he was a just a kid, still too
>young to be let out of the house by foster-father Elrond.
He was 21; he was in such a good mood because Elrond had just told him who
he was and what he was heir to.
>Indeed, a search of my memory turns up very few stories of first love
>turned sour. Most of Tolkien's youthful infatuations end relatively
>happily (Aragorn and Arwen, Beren and Tinuviel, all the way back to
>Melian and that moron Thingol at the beginning of time.) I can
What makes Thingol a moron? Proud, sure, but hardly moronic.
>remember only two unhappy love-affairs out of Tolkien, those of
>Turin Turambar and (uh) Finduilas (but Turin was "born to lose",
>cursed from the start), and Idril and Maeglin (whose frustrated
>desire leads him down the primrose way to the everlasting bonfire.)
I think there are way more than that; there are a bunch in the Rohirrim
history, Elrond and Celebrian aren't particularly happy - certainly,
parted by sorrow - and neither are Galadriel and Celeborn.
Dorothy J Heydt
>> ....I have never heard of such a faithful
>> lover as Aragorn, except for Tolkien himself and my own husband.
>> (Okay, okay, so I'm bragging. So sue me.)
>
>You knew Tolkien? That's worth bragging about, no question.
Ahem. Read what I said. "Heard of." No, I didn't know Prof.
Tolkien, though I wrote him a letter once and he wrote back
(with strong hints that he'd get more writing done if he didn't
have to answer letters).
Dorothy J Heydt
In article <5u4nnt$6dl$2...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>....Also, I once encountered a fanfic story
>which quietly implied a rivalry for Finduilas (different one)
>between the young Denethor and Thorongil.
Humph. I won't even bother to scream, "Non-Canonical!"
If it was even remotely true-to-character, it would've been
Denethor pursuing Finduilas pursuing Thorongil who won't even
give her the time of day. I have never heard of such a faithful
lover as Aragorn, except for Tolkien himself and my own husband.
(Okay, okay, so I'm bragging. So sue me.)
Dorothy J. Heydt
Graydon
In article <872776...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[how tall was Eowyn?]
>She's certainly tall enough that Merry doesn't twig she's not a man,
>and indeed strong enough that Elfhelm and other sensible Riders know
>she can take her place in the shield wall, and strong enough in the
>event to kill the fell creature and the Nazgul. We don't know if she's
>actually tall enough to pass for a man among the Rohirrim - we don't
Urm... I think we do, actually. She fools the Witch-King; Gandalf says
something to Eomer about her native gifts for valour being at least as
great as his, which certainly has implications about minimum stature, and
there is the description of why Merry doesn't overburden 'Dernhelm's'
horse - lightness/slightness, not small size.
>know who, if anyone, besides Merry, was fooled. (She was 24, so she'd
>have looked like a man of about 19, most likely - not so young as not
>to need to shave.)
It's not like a hobbit is going to much think about needed to shave in any
case; Merry probably has to think conciously about why people aren't
bearded.
>> >(Finally the _real_ reason Aragorn said no... :)
>> Arwen's probably only six six herself, he's _still_ a foot taller.
>A foot is just about OK, IME. More than that is probably inconvenient.
Not necessarily; depends on the availablility of stairs and low furniture
and such like. Waltzing does get tricky.
Andrew Thall
In article <5u4uca$l...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>In article <5u4982$5gm$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
>tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>>Does Tolkien clearly state, in _Lord of the Rings_ or anywhere else,
>>how old Aragorn was when he first saw Arwen in Rivendell ("Tinuviel!"
>>etc.) I am under the impression that he was a just a kid, still too
>>young to be let out of the house by foster-father Elrond.
>
>He was 21; he was in such a good mood because Elrond had just told him who
>he was and what he was heir to.
>
>>Indeed, a search of my memory turns up very few stories of first love
>>turned sour. Most of Tolkien's youthful infatuations end relatively
>>happily (Aragorn and Arwen, Beren and Tinuviel, all the way back to
>>Melian and that moron Thingol at the beginning of time.) I can
>
>What makes Thingol a moron? Proud, sure, but hardly moronic.
>
>>remember only two unhappy love-affairs out of Tolkien, those of
>>Turin Turambar and (uh) Finduilas (but Turin was "born to lose",
>>cursed from the start), and Idril and Maeglin (whose frustrated
>>desire leads him down the primrose way to the everlasting bonfire.)
>
>I think there are way more than that; there are a bunch in the Rohirrim
>history, Elrond and Celebrian aren't particularly happy - certainly,
>parted by sorrow - and neither are Galadriel and Celeborn.
"The Mariner's Wife," in _Unfinished Tales_. Yikes! Set in Numenor,
and the scariest depiction of marriage since "Who's Afraid of Virginia
Woolf?".
--Andrew "newlywed, as it happens" Thall
--
"I shall drink beer and eat bread in the House of Life."
jbford
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote in article
<5u4982$5gm$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>...
>
I can
> remember only two unhappy love-affairs out of Tolkien, those of
> Turin Turambar and (uh) Finduilas (but Turin was "born to lose",
> cursed from the start), and Idril and Maeglin (whose frustrated
> desire leads him down the primrose way to the everlasting bonfire.)
There is the marital tragedy of the ents and the entwives: for some reason
I've always found that particularly haunting.
--
Jenny
e-mail:jbford @ bournemouth-net.co.uk
Anton Sherwood
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> writes
: Does Tolkien clearly state, in _Lord of the Rings_ or anywhere else,
: how old Aragorn was when he first saw Arwen in Rivendell ("Tinuviel!"
: etc.) I am under the impression that he was a just a kid, still too
: young to be let out of the house by foster-father Elrond.
Twenty; and forty-nine when he gave her the ring of Barahir, which
prompts a question of my own:
That ring is thousands of years old, and is not the only very ancient
artifact carried about by Men. In our world, what's the longest time
that a portable artifact has endured without being lost or buried?
--
Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DASher at netcom point com
Celia Malm
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) penned the following:
>It seems the alternatives in Middle Earth were destined love, an
>arranged marriage, or a fairly happy unmarried life - lots of people
>never married or married very late, we don't see _any_ dating and
>- am I right - no adultery at all.
What about Sam and Rose? Eowyn and Faramir? I wouldn't call those
matches destined or arranged, and certainly not unhappy.
Definitively no adultery, though, IFAIK. (But I gave up on background
material after Unfinished Tales.)
One thing I find interesting is the apparent lack, in many cases, to a
real emotional commitment to one another, particularly on the part of
the Elven couples. I don't see Galadriel and Celeborn as unhappy with
each other, but I also don't see them being particularly in love with
each other either. Galadriel goes over the sea, and Celeborn stays.
(Also Celebrian went and Elrond stayed.) The implication seems to be
that their own personal lives are more important than their "together"
lives, and that they love other things more profoundly than their
spouses.
And I was under the impression that Arwen ended up truly regretting
the choice she'd made, once Aragorn was dead. Maybe Sam and Rose
really ARE the only ones to have a decently happy (if
uninteresting--but happy things are rarely interesting) marriage.
Cee
------------------------------------------------
"If I must be this...this thing they have made of me,
I shall at least give it my voice and my heart."
Walker Boh
Anton Sherwood
Celia Malm <per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com> writes
: One thing I find interesting is the apparent lack, in many cases, to a
: real emotional commitment to one another, particularly on the part of
: the Elven couples. I don't see Galadriel and Celeborn as unhappy with
: each other, but I also don't see them being particularly in love with
: each other either. Galadriel goes over the sea, and Celeborn stays.
: (Also Celebrian went and Elrond stayed.)
Maybe Elrond stayed for the sake of his children.
(See my other post on this.)
: The implication seems to be
: that their own personal lives are more important than their "together"
: lives, and that they love other things more profoundly than their
: spouses.
Jo Walton
In article <dasherEF...@netcom.com>
das...@netcom.com "Anton Sherwood" writes:
>
> That ring is thousands of years old, and is not the only very ancient
> artifact carried about by Men. In our world, what's the longest time
> that a portable artifact has endured without being lost or buried?
I was talking to my son, who's recently been racing through Tolkien,
about the recent threads here about it, and mentioned Michael's
idea of someone exavating the Silmaril. Sasha asked if one of them
might be found on Venus. Completely and utterly stumped me.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blue Jo Web Page - Blood of Kings Poetry, Reviews, Interstichia
20 poems by me, 11 poems by Graydon, Momentum Guidelines,
storytelling card games... all at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Niall McAuley
per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com (Celia Malm) writes:
>I don't see Galadriel and Celeborn as unhappy with
>each other, but I also don't see them being particularly in love with
>each other either. Galadriel goes over the sea, and Celeborn stays.
>(Also Celebrian went and Elrond stayed.)
I always took this simply as a consequence of their immortality.
Elrond hanging around until the end of the Third Age is like a
human husband insisting on seeing the end of a football match.
"I'm going home now dear, and I'm taking the car".
"That's OK, Cirdan will give me a lift, see you later".
--
Niall
FrankieOx
In article <5ud7el$i...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com wrote:
>One thing I find interesting is the apparent lack, in many cases, to a
>real emotional commitment to one another, particularly on the part of
>the Elven couples. I don't see Galadriel and Celeborn as unhappy with
>each other, but I also don't see them being particularly in love with
>each other either. Galadriel goes over the sea, and Celeborn stays.
>(Also Celebrian went and Elrond stayed.) The implication seems to be
>that their own personal lives are more important than their "together"
>lives, and that they love other things more profoundly than their
>spouses.
Well, the very first time I read LOTR (I was eight and didn't think it was
all that great, so I wasn't paying much attention to little details such as
Galadriel having a husband), I remember thinking Galadriel and Gimli were
going to get together. :) I still think it's the best love story in the
trilogy...
>And I was under the impression that Arwen ended up truly regretting
>the choice she'd made, once Aragorn was dead.
I got that impression too. Not necessarily that she regretted marrying
Aragorn, but that she regretted that she had to die. She wasn't tired of
life yet, and her love for him certainly wasn't the type where once he was
dead, life wasn't worth living anymore. In hindsight, the marriage may not
have been worth it to her. If she could have changed her decision, I do
wonder if she might have made a different one.
Which brings me to a question I have: Arwen told Aragorn that she
wouldn't be passing over the Sea after his death because she had no ship to
enable her to do so. But Legolas and Gimli passed over the Sea after
Aragorn's death, in a ship that Legolas built. Did Tolkien ever explain
how come Arwen didn't just go along with them? It always seemed like a
contradiction to me. If the dwarf Gimli could go, Arwen certainly could.
I find it hard to believe that Legolas and Arwen didn't have any talks
about their future plans--I would assume they were both at Aragorn's
funeral, for instance.
Frankie
Jo Walton
In article <5ud7el$i...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com "Celia Malm" writes:
> And I was under the impression that Arwen ended up truly regretting
> the choice she'd made, once Aragorn was dead. Maybe Sam and Rose
> really ARE the only ones to have a decently happy (if
> uninteresting--but happy things are rarely interesting) marriage.
I've often wondered whether he intended that about Arwen.
I certainly felt annoyed with her for a long time - she sat at home
sewing instead of riding to battle and then after Aragorn was dead
she seemed to regret the choice she made. I think a lot of why I
disliked her is because she actually appears so little and so late
in the story.
I've got reconciled to the sitting at home sewing a standard bit
(there's a poem of Graydon's on my web page called "Roland's Lady"
which is a large part of why) but I still don't quite understand
what she was doing at the end. I can't help seeing that as not
being wholehearted in her choice. It's also, oddly, the most
realistic thing about her, the point in the "Part of the Tale of
Aragorn and Arwen" in which she appears most like a real person
and not just a doll.
I suppose she lived 2000 years as an elf and then a couple of hundred
as a mortal with Aragorn, that's got to have been an odd thing when
it ended, even though she _knew_ she'd have been subconsciously expecting
the pacing of it to go on and on, after all all the marriages she knew
of when she was growing up did.
I wonder whether Tolkien thought it was worth it for her, after all.
I've just thought why. She was brought up as an elf so she doesn't
have any belief in the afterlife of men, real death as a gift, that
they will meet again, though Aragorn does, of course. When elves
die it's temporary, when mortals die it is a transformation and another
thing, she probably doesn't trust that at all.
Undomiel. The Evenstar.
tomlinson
Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: I was talking to my son, who's recently been racing through Tolkien,
: about the recent threads here about it, and mentioned Michael's
: idea of someone exavating the Silmaril.
I must have missed this idea. I suppose it could be worked into a
good story. Er, I'm racking my brains for stories about dug-up
mythical artifacts. The only one that comes to mind is a very
strange tale by Charles Williams, _War in Heaven_. Um...Christ,
there _must_ be hundreds of stories about 20th-century folk
accidently discovering Excalibur, or the Tarnhelm, or other
such numinous objects. I vaguely remember that a number of
comic-book plots revolved about the discovery of artifacts that
convey magical powers to their discoverers.
: Sasha asked if one of them
: might be found on Venus. Completely and utterly stumped me.
!!
-et
Brenda and Larry Clough
FrankieOx wrote:
> Which brings me to a question I have: Arwen told Aragorn that she
> wouldn't be passing over the Sea after his death because she had no ship to
> enable her to do so. But Legolas and Gimli passed over the Sea after
> Aragorn's death, in a ship that Legolas built. Did Tolkien ever explain
> how come Arwen didn't just go along with them? It always seemed like a
> contradiction to me. If the dwarf Gimli could go, Arwen certainly could.
> I find it hard to believe that Legolas and Arwen didn't have any talks
> about their future plans--I would assume they were both at Aragorn's
> funeral, for instance.
>
> Frankie
I always thought that in marrying Aragorn, Arwen gave up her
elf-status. She -couldn't- go to the undying lands any more, because
she had moved over to the "human" column. Remember, how the Powers That
Be (can't remember who they are) decreed that elf/human crossbreeds had
to decide which they were, and their kids had to decide too?
I have always had problems with this, but it's very British. Like the
way Princess Di got to be a Princess, now and forever, simply by
marrying Charles. How come Aragorn didn't immediately get bumped up to
elf status by marrying Arwen?
Brenda
Rich Horton
On 2 Sep 1997 01:00:11 GMT, djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
>
>In article <5ufib8$o4o$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
>tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>
>>"I thought it was high time that someone did for Bach what Copland did
>>for Lincoln, what Beethoven did for Wellington, what Tchaikovsky did
>>for Little Russians, and what Richard Strauss did for himself."
>
>??? Who are you quoting? And did he do for Bach what he
>planned? And what did he do?????
>
Well, Copland wrote _A Lincoln Portrait_, Beethoven wrote
_Wellington's Victory_ (aka _Battle Symphony_), which I believe
commemorated Wellington's victories which helped defeat Napoleon (of
course, Beethoven also wrote the Eroica Symphony, originally intended
to be in praise of Napoleon), and Tchaikovsky wrote the "Little
Russian" Symphony (isn't "Little Russia" a place?), and Strauss "Ein
Heldenleben" (A Hero's Life, an "autobiographical tone poem"), so I
suppose he meant to write a musical work about Bach.
But, heck, I don't know who he's quoting either, or if he did it. So
I'd love to hear the answer, too.
Rich Horton
Dorothy J Heydt
In article <5ufib8$o4o$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>"I thought it was high time that someone did for Bach what Copland did
>for Lincoln, what Beethoven did for Wellington, what Tchaikovsky did
>for Little Russians, and what Richard Strauss did for himself."
??? Who are you quoting? And did he do for Bach what he
planned? And what did he do?????
Dorothy J. Heydt
tomlinson
Dorothy J Heydt (djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article <5ufib8$o4o$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
: tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
: >"I thought it was high time that someone did for Bach what Copland did
: >for Lincoln, what Beethoven did for Wellington, what Tchaikovsky did
: >for Little Russians, and what Richard Strauss did for himself."
: ??? Who are you quoting? And did he do for Bach what he
: planned? And what did he do?????
Whom am I quoting? Professor Peter Schickele, _the_ Professor
Peter Schickele, discoverer and champion of J. S. Bach's youngest
son, P. D. Q. Bach. The above quote comes from "1712 Overture
and Other Musical Assaults" (Telarc); Schickele is explaining
why he decided to write a piece in honor of Bach called "Bach
Portrait" (a la Copland's "Lincoln Portrait").
For myself, I'd like to know the Strauss piece to which Schickele
refers; I know all the others of course (BTW am I the only person
who _likes_ "Wellington's Victory"? Everyone on rec.music.classical
loathes it.)
-et
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson | http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~et
-------------------------------------------------------
Dorothy J Heydt
In article <5ufvr3$p11$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
>: tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>
>: ....what Richard Strauss did for himself."
>For myself, I'd like to know the Strauss piece to which Schickele
>refers....
Oh, it's _Ein Heldenleben_ ("A Hero's Life), in which Strauss
describes his life so far, his courtship and marriage, his wife's
support of him in his heroic struggles against monstrous critics,
his important works (with quotations from each). However, he was
only fortyish, I think, when he wrote the thing, so a lot of his
later stuff is left out on grounds of not having happened yet.
Ogre
[newsgroups line trimmed]
>good story. Er, I'm racking my brains for stories about dug-up
>mythical artifacts. The only one that comes to mind is a very
>strange tale by Charles Williams, _War in Heaven_. Um...Christ,
>there _must_ be hundreds of stories about 20th-century folk
>accidently discovering Excalibur, or the Tarnhelm, or other
>such numinous objects.
Er, well, there's Tom Holt, with _Grailblazers_ (which isn't quite the
same; the original Grail Knights are still on the quest, sort of, in
the 20th Century) and _Expecting Someone Taller_. _The Forever King_,
by Molly Cochran and Warren Murphy (also a bit different from what
you're asking; Arthur and Co. are reborn in the 20th Century).
But that's about all I can think of offhand.
--
"Most people learn from their past mistakes and in future
lives go on to grow into better people. Others, who don't,
become ogres." - E. A. Scarborough, _The Godmother_
Eliminate Unsolicited Commercial Email: http://www.cauce.org
Dorothy J Heydt
In article <340addbe...@news.concentric.net>,
Rich Horton <rrho...@concentric.net> wrote:
>.....and Tchaikovsky wrote the "Little
>Russian" Symphony (isn't "Little Russia" a place?)
Better known as the Ukraine.
Samuel S. Paik
In article <EFv1A...@iglou.com>, og...@iglou2.iglou.com (Ogre) wrote:
>>Er, I'm racking my brains for stories about dug-up
>>mythical artifacts.
Somewhat related is the story (by Turtledove?) which ends with
the development of FTL travel by a civilization risen from the
ashes of ours.
You see, after the fall, technology recovers quickly because
there is all this information and artifacts around, and even
just knowing that something can be done is half the battle...
And then someone unearths a technical manual for a warp drive
ship...
Sam
--
Necessity is the Mother of Improvisation. | Samuel S. Paik
Laziness and Greed are the Parents of Innovation| pa...@webnexus.com
Speak only for self
Nyrath the nearly wise
Thus spoke Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk):
> I was talking to my son, who's recently been racing through Tolkien,
> about the recent threads here about it, and mentioned Michael's
> might be found on Venus. Completely and utterly stumped me.
Forgive my foggy memory, but didn't Erandil (sp) have a Silmaril
on the prow of his boat, who's silver light was seen on
earth as the planet Venus?
FrankieOx
In article <340B5D...@erols.com>, Brenda wrote:
>FrankieOx wrote:
>> Which brings me to a question I have: Arwen told Aragorn that she
>> wouldn't be passing over the Sea after his death because she had no ship to
>> enable her to do so. But Legolas and Gimli passed over the Sea after
>> Aragorn's death, in a ship that Legolas built. Did Tolkien ever explain
>> how come Arwen didn't just go along with them? It always seemed like a
>> contradiction to me. If the dwarf Gimli could go, Arwen certainly could.
>> I find it hard to believe that Legolas and Arwen didn't have any talks
>> about their future plans--I would assume they were both at Aragorn's
>> funeral, for instance.
>>
>> Frankie
>
>
>I always thought that in marrying Aragorn, Arwen gave up her
>elf-status. She -couldn't- go to the undying lands any more, because
>she had moved over to the "human" column.
Actually, not quite. She did give it up to marry Aragorn, but in the
appendix that is the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Aragorn says something to
Arwen on his deathbed that she can choose to be an elf again and go to the
undying lands after all. (My apologies, my copy of LOTR is several hundred
miles away, so I can't give specific quotes.) Arwen declines, but gives as
her reason that she has no ship to pass over the Sea, not that she's
unwilling to revoke her move to human status.
Frankie
Dorothy J Heydt
In article <19970901233...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
FrankieOx <fran...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Which brings me to a question I have: Arwen told Aragorn that she
>wouldn't be passing over the Sea after his death because she had no ship to
>enable her to do so. But Legolas and Gimli passed over the Sea after
>Aragorn's death, in a ship that Legolas built. Did Tolkien ever explain
>how come Arwen didn't just go along with them? ....
Interpret it this way.
There was no ship that would take her.
Having chosen to be human, she was categorically barred from ever
setting foot on Elvenhome. (Remember what happened to Ar-Pharazon?)
Dwarves, like hobbits, are not covered under the ban that excludes
humans from the Undying Lands. (Sounds as if Manwe wrote the text
himself instead of hiring a lawyer.)
(And mind you that the reason Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam got to go is so
they could be healed of Ring-addiction before they died. Gimli wanted
to see Galadriel once more--before he died (though apparently Dwarves
reincarnate).
Jo Walton
In article <5uhm9h$n...@clarknet.clark.net>
Yes. Quite. That's why Sasha thought it might be there if we went
there in a spaceship to look for it.
Q. for Tolkien literalists and fundamentalists: Would it? :]
Jo Walton
In article <340B5D...@erols.com>
clo...@erols.com "Brenda and Larry Clough" writes:
> I always thought that in marrying Aragorn, Arwen gave up her
> elf-status. She -couldn't- go to the undying lands any more, because
> she had moved over to the "human" column. Remember, how the Powers That
> Be (can't remember who they are) decreed that elf/human crossbreeds had
> to decide which they were, and their kids had to decide too?
>
> I have always had problems with this, but it's very British. Like the
> way Princess Di got to be a Princess, now and forever, simply by
> marrying Charles. How come Aragorn didn't immediately get bumped up to
> elf status by marrying Arwen?
You're assuming it's "up".
There are three elf/human marriages, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril,
Aragorn and Arwen. (The marriage of Earendil and Elwing is more
complicated...) Tuor and Idril became both elves, the other two cases
the elf chose to become mortal. I don't see why this was inevitable,
but perhaps it would have done utterly bizarre things to the world
if elves and humans could have children normally and then the humans
die. ("In the two thousand years since my mother died of old age, I've
aged hardly at all. I think of that sometimes.")
Michael S. Schiffer
In article <873231...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <5uhm9h$n...@clarknet.clark.net>
> nyr...@clark.net "Nyrath the nearly wise" writes:
>> Thus spoke Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk):
>> > I was talking to my son, who's recently been racing through Tolkien,
>> > about the recent threads here about it, and mentioned Michael's
>> > idea of someone exavating the Silmaril. Sasha asked if one of them
>> > might be found on Venus. Completely and utterly stumped me.
>> Forgive my foggy memory, but didn't Erandil (sp) have a Silmaril
>> on the prow of his boat, who's silver light was seen on
>> earth as the planet Venus?
>Yes. Quite. That's why Sasha thought it might be there if we went
>there in a spaceship to look for it.
>Q. for Tolkien literalists and fundamentalists: Would it? :]
When I suspend my disbelief in Middle-Earth as our own world's
past, I mostly try to ignore the astronomical issues the way I do the
fossil and archaeological record. I did once imagine the boat with
Telperion's last flower accreting dust and rock and ultimately
becoming our Moon, but that works pretty poorly, and even worse for
Earendil (Maiar can be pretty tolerant of being buried alive, as the
Balrog of Moria was between Morgoth's fall and the Dwarves' discovery
of it, but Earendil would probably have insisted that the decks be
swept occasionally.)
If I had to explain it, I'd go with the modern Solar System
being a further (and unmentioned) effect of Illuvatar's reshaping of
the world at Numenor's downfall. Illuvatar knew, as the Elves and
perhaps even the Valar did not, that Men would eventually fly through
the heavens, and the last thing anyone needed was some NASA crew
hijacking Earendil's ship back to Aman, or otherwise troubling the
Deathless. So just as New Lands were made in the West, New Worlds
were made in the heavens to take the place of the ships of Earendil
and the Maiar, and perhaps the lamps of Varda as well. Earendil
finally gets a vacation.
There are obvious aesthetic problems with this hypothesis, of
course. One is that if Galadriel made Frodo's star-glass at the time
of his sojourn in Lorien, or for that matter any time in the Third
Age, it was filled with sunlight reflected off sulfuric acid clouds
rather than a spark of the mingled light of the Trees. They may be
visually indistinguishable, but there's something wrong there. (Other
artifacts, like the Elessar, were made before the change and are
safe.)
But without something like this, the worlds diverge with the
invention of the telescope, as there would be no phases of Venus to
discover. (We would also figure out that the Moon was a giant flower
some time before we tried to land _Eagle_ on it-- though maybe the
name would make the Maia in charge think twice before doing anything
untoward to it.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS "I decline utterly to be impartial
Co-author: GURPS Alternate Earths as between the fire brigade and
ms...@tezcat.com the fire."
ms...@midway.uchicago.edu -- Winston Churchill, July 7, 1926
Will&Jane Duquette
das...@netcom.com (Anton Sherwood) wrote:
>Celia Malm <per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com> writes
>: One thing I find interesting is the apparent lack, in many cases, to a
>: real emotional commitment to one another, particularly on the part of
>: the Elven couples. I don't see Galadriel and Celeborn as unhappy with
>: each other, but I also don't see them being particularly in love with
>: each other either. Galadriel goes over the sea, and Celeborn stays.
>: (Also Celebrian went and Elrond stayed.)
>Maybe Elrond stayed for the sake of his children.
>(See my other post on this.)
Celebrian went because she was seriously hurt, and could find rest
over the sea. Elrond stayed, I would guess, because he had a job
to do.
>: The implication seems to be
>: that their own personal lives are more important than their "together"
>: lives, and that they love other things more profoundly than their
>: spouses.
On the other hand, consider that Galadriel and Celeborn had been
an item for several ages of the world. And Celebrian knew
that Elrond would be joining her eventually. What's a few hundred
or thousand years when you're immortal?
Did Celeborn ever travel to Valinor? Was he allowed to?
Will
--
Will Duquette, duqu...@cogent.net | It's amazing what you can
Visit Ex Libris Book Reviews: | do with the right tools.
http://www.cogent.net/~duquette | -- Me
Anton Sherwood
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> writes
: there _must_ be hundreds of stories about 20th-century folk
: accidently discovering Excalibur, or the Tarnhelm, or other
: comic-book plots revolved about the discovery of artifacts
: that convey magical powers to their discoverers.
In _Expecting Someone Taller_, a driver hits a badger who happens
to be the keeper of the Tarnkappe.
Then of course there's _Thor_ comics, which began with Donald Blake
finding a stick which, when whacked on the ground by someone "worthy",
transmuted into Mj*llnir.
tomlinson
Anton Sherwood (das...@netcom.com) wrote:
: tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> writes
: : there _must_ be hundreds of stories about 20th-century folk
: : accidently discovering Excalibur, or the Tarnhelm, or other
: : such numinous objects. I vaguely remember that a number of
: : comic-book plots revolved about the discovery of artifacts
: : that convey magical powers to their discoverers.
^^^^^^
I can't believe that I used "convey" instead of "confer". :-b
: In _Expecting Someone Taller_, a driver hits a badger who happens
: to be the keeper of the Tarnkappe.
Now _that's_ the sort of story! A lesser writer might invoke the
"power corrupts" cliche: man finds Tarnhelm and uses it in further-
rance of robbery and murder. Instead, he uses it to turn himself
into a badger. I like it already.
-et
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson | http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~et
-------------------------------------------------------
"I thought it was high time that someone did for Bach what Copland did
for Lincoln, what Beethoven did for Wellington, what Tchaikovsky did
for Little Russians, and what Richard Strauss did for himself."
Michael S. Schiffer
In article <5ujvsu$2fj$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>Michael S. Schiffer (ms...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: When I suspend my disbelief in Middle-Earth as our own world's
>: past, I mostly try to ignore the astronomical issues the way I do the
>: fossil and archaeological record. I did once imagine the boat with
>: Telperion's last flower accreting dust and rock and ultimately
>: becoming our Moon, but that works pretty poorly, and even worse for
>: Earendil (Maiar can be pretty tolerant of being buried alive, as the
>: Balrog of Moria was between Morgoth's fall and the Dwarves' discovery
>: of it, but Earendil would probably have insisted that the decks be
>: swept occasionally.)
>A pretty try, indeed :)
Thanks. :-)
>You mention above your "disbelief in Middle-Earth as our own world's
>past"--so far as I know, the only evidence of Tolkien's desire to
>shape his fiction thus is in _The Book of Lost Tales_, second volume,
>in which the connection between Eriol, AElfwine, and England is
>made. But don't the fragments published in TBoLT represent Tolkien
>very _earliest_ scribblings? I had thought that Tolkien might have
>_started_ with some idea of connecting his Middle-Earth with our
>own past, but jettisoned that connection very early.
I don't think so. Consider the whole idea of the "Red Book of
Westmarch". Or the introductory material to _The Lord of the Rings_,
in which he suggests that hobbits dwindled still further in size, and
are good enough at hiding that they are now difficult (though not
quite impossible) to catch a glimpse of. He also often distinguishes
between our garbled ideas of elves and the "real" Eldar ("none of the
Eldar had wings of the body", for example, in one of the Appendices).
What he jettisoned, I think, was the idea that this was
specifically a mythology for England and the attempt to provide a
direct link between the Elder Days and historical time. But he still
wanted to play with the conceit that this was our own world. Why else
give an origin for the Lunar "seas" (burns from approaching the fruit
of Laurelin too closely) or map astronomical features to those we're
familiar with? (Guy Gavriel Kay does almost the opposite, providing
close analogs to historical situations, but using a different
astronomical feature-- two moons instead of one-- to signify that this
isn't just our world with the names altered.)
>: If I had to explain it, I'd go with the modern Solar System
>: being a further (and unmentioned) effect of Illuvatar's reshaping of
>: the world at Numenor's downfall....
>Some difficulties and contradictions: in the very beginning the
>Earth, seen in vision conjured up by Eru, is spoken of as "globed"
>and floating in space. (Perhaps some kind soul can track down the
>exact quote.) Later, however, the Earth seems to be regarded as
>flat, until the final paragraphs of the story of the fall of Numenor;
>there, it is mentioned that mariners attempting to sail to the
>Uttermost West end up encircling the globe and returned whence they
>began ("all roads are now bent.")
Was the globe the vision of Arda, or of Ea (that is, of Earth
or the universe)? I don't have my copy of the _Silmarillion_
available to check. If it was Earth alone, then it's a contradiction
regardless of whether it's supposed to be our world, since it seems
pretty clear that the world is supposed to have gone from flat to
spherical with the fall of Numenor.
Graydon
In article <5ufonj$d...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Interpret it this way.
>There was no ship that would take her.
>
>Having chosen to be human, she was categorically barred from ever
>setting foot on Elvenhome. (Remember what happened to Ar-Pharazon?)
Yup.
Never mind how appaled they'd be at her rescinding that choice.
>Dwarves, like hobbits, are not covered under the ban that excludes
>humans from the Undying Lands. (Sounds as if Manwe wrote the text
>himself instead of hiring a lawyer.)
I'm not at all sure hobbits in general aren't covered; I figured Bilbo,
Frodo, and Sam are special exceptions like Tuor.
>(And mind you that the reason Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam got to go is so
>they could be healed of Ring-addiction before they died. Gimli wanted
>to see Galadriel once more--before he died (though apparently Dwarves
>reincarnate).
So far as I can tell, there is no theological difference between Dwarves
and Elves; Dwarves go to their own section of Mandos, apparently, and will
all come back to help rebuild the world.
--
gra...@gooroos.com | Praise ice when it is crossed,
is bouncing again Ale when it is drunk,
try pir...@pobox.com The day at evening-time,
with 'for graydon' in the subject line Domain service when it works.
Graydon
In article <873146...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>which is a large part of why) but I still don't quite understand
>what she was doing at the end. I can't help seeing that as not
>being wholehearted in her choice. It's also, oddly, the most
>realistic thing about her, the point in the "Part of the Tale of
>Aragorn and Arwen" in which she appears most like a real person
>and not just a doll.
She met him when he was 20 or 21 and watched him go from being this
enthusiastic boy to the greatest hero of his age (and argueably the
greatest, as well as the last, of the Numenoreans), and then she married
him and they lived together for a hundred years, and then he died when he
should because he never _stopped_ being the greatest hero, either. (If you
ever want to make an English prof's head explode, do a thesis comparing
Carrot and Aragorn as examples of heroic character lacking in a desire for
glory.)
That this left a great ringing hollow silence in her heart is not
difficult to imagine; I do not think she regreted her choice, I think that
it was only after Aragorn's death that she truly _feared_ her choice.
That's what I think was saddest about it for Elrond; he knows she's going
to die, and he can probably cope with that as a grief, but knowing she's
going to find out what an inestimably fearsome thing that choice is and
not to be able to tell her - because how _could_ you tell anyone? - would
be terrible.
Simon van Dongen
On or about 1 Sep 1997 23:36:42 GMT, FrankieOx wrote:
>In article <5ud7el$i...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com wrote:
>
>>One thing I find interesting is the apparent lack, in many cases, to a
>>real emotional commitment to one another, particularly on the part of
>>the Elven couples. I don't see Galadriel and Celeborn as unhappy with
>>each other, but I also don't see them being particularly in love with
>>each other either. Galadriel goes over the sea, and Celeborn stays.
>>(Also Celebrian went and Elrond stayed.) The implication seems to be
>>that their own personal lives are more important than their "together"
>>lives, and that they love other things more profoundly than their
>>spouses.
>
>Well, the very first time I read LOTR (I was eight and didn't think it was
>all that great, so I wasn't paying much attention to little details such as
>Galadriel having a husband), I remember thinking Galadriel and Gimli were
>going to get together. :) I still think it's the best love story in the
>trilogy...
I prefer Sam and Rose Cotton, although there is a bit of 'look, even
rustic yokels have a lovelife' about it.
Although the Gimli-Galadriel bit does give rise to the "Gimli Gloin's
son, have you your axe ready?" scene with Eomer, which is one of my
favourites overall.
>>And I was under the impression that Arwen ended up truly regretting
>>the choice she'd made, once Aragorn was dead.
>
>I got that impression too. Not necessarily that she regretted marrying
>Aragorn, but that she regretted that she had to die. She wasn't tired of
>life yet, and her love for him certainly wasn't the type where once he was
>dead, life wasn't worth living anymore. In hindsight, the marriage may not
>have been worth it to her. If she could have changed her decision, I do
>wonder if she might have made a different one.
>
>Which brings me to a question I have: Arwen told Aragorn that she
>wouldn't be passing over the Sea after his death because she had no ship to
>enable her to do so. But Legolas and Gimli passed over the Sea after
>Aragorn's death, in a ship that Legolas built. Did Tolkien ever explain
>how come Arwen didn't just go along with them? It always seemed like a
>contradiction to me. If the dwarf Gimli could go, Arwen certainly could.
>I find it hard to believe that Legolas and Arwen didn't have any talks
>about their future plans--I would assume they were both at Aragorn's
>funeral, for instance.
>
>Frankie
Since, apperently, humans and elves have different kinds of
'afterlife', that would cost her her chance of being re-united with
Aragorn.
Besides, after she'd made her choice, I doubt she'd be allowed to
change her mind. Remember, after that business with Ar-Pharazon, it
took a special miracle to get to Tol Erresea/Valdemar. Uninvited
visitors would just keep sailing around the world.
Simon van Dongen
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> Rotterdam, The Netherlands
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the
unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it.
To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. I may submit to
the unknown, but never to the unknowable. The man who bows in that
final direction is either a saint or a fool. I have no use for
either." 'Lord of Light', Roger Zelazny
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Kate Nepveu
Rumor has it gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) said:
[Aragorn]
>and then he died when he
>should because he never _stopped_ being the greatest hero, either.
<insert _Dogland_ quote here>
>(If you
>ever want to make an English prof's head explode, do a thesis comparing
>Carrot and Aragorn as examples of heroic character lacking in a desire for
>glory.)
<chokes, splutters> And here I thought it was safe to drink while
reading rasfw... that'll teach me. As though I needed more reasons
to take a course in Fantasy...
Kate
"What," asked Mr. Croup, "do you want?"
"What," asked the marquis de Carabas, a little more rhetorically,
"does anyone want?"
"Dead things," suggested Mr. Vandemar. "Extra teeth."
--Neil Gaiman, _Neverwhere_
Doug Lampert
In article <EFznK...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
Michael S. Schiffer <ms...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <5ujtq8$v...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
[SNIP]
(If you
>>ever want to make an English prof's head explode, do a thesis comparing
>>Carrot and Aragorn as examples of heroic character lacking in a desire for
>>glory.)
>
> Carrot?
Terry Prattchet character.
An excelent comparison, but most English prof's have no idea who he is
so I do not think we could get a head explosion this way.
DougL
Jo Walton
In article <EFzGI...@isltd.insignia.com>
Paul....@isltd.insignia.com "Paul Clarke" writes:
> In article <5ufib8$o4o$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>, etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu says...
> >
> >Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >: Sasha asked if one of them
> >: might be found on Venus. Completely and utterly stumped me.
> >
> >!!
> >
>
> !! indeed: it took me a while to figure out why he came up with this.
> My brain's finally going, I'm having trouble keeping up intellectually
> with a six-year old :-(.
>
> So, which of the collection of authors on rasfw do we get to write
> this story?
I would write it myself only too happily, but Tolkien is copyright
and fanfic is, I believe, frowned upon, though sometimes I find
myself resisting the temptation to put my Eowyn poems on my web
page only by the skin of my respect and reverence for the concept.
Graydon
In article <5umn2h$2...@s10.math.uah.edu>,
Doug Lampert <lam...@s10.math.uah.edu> wrote:
>In article <EFznK...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>Michael S. Schiffer <ms...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>In article <5ujtq8$v...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>[SNIP]
> (If you
>>>ever want to make an English prof's head explode, do a thesis comparing
>>>Carrot and Aragorn as examples of heroic character lacking in a desire for
>>>glory.)
>>
>> Carrot?
>
>Terry Prattchet character.
True king raised in exile by non-humans who is young and serving in what
amounts to disguise in what amount to the forces of the city of which he
is the rightful king, in fact.
>An excelent comparison, but most English prof's have no idea who he is
>so I do not think we could get a head explosion this way.
Oh, I don't know; you don't have to only use stuff the prof has read, you
just have to do a somewhat better job of it because you're starting with a
fifteen percent penalty for making them read stuff to be able to mark it.
If you threw in "The Homecoming of Beortnoth, Beornthelm's Son" and some
metadiscussion about the norther heoric ideal, a wee blurb of Gawain, and
then into Aragorn and treated Carrot as one of Aragorn's literary
descendents (which, whether or not he was _intended_ that way, he pretty
clearly is), it's be hard for the prof to stop you without pulling rank.
So it's be a _delayed_ head explosion, sure, when they actually read the
paper, but careful choice of quotes would do it for sure.
Bob Goudreau
Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: There are three elf/human marriages, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril,
: Aragorn and Arwen.
Actually, three *Eldar/Edain* marriages, to pick a nit. Not all elves
were of the Eldar.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau Data General Corporation
goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive
+1 919 248 6231 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
Graydon
In article <EFznK...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
Michael S. Schiffer <ms...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <5ujtq8$v...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>>enthusiastic boy to the greatest hero of his age (and argueably the
>>greatest, as well as the last, of the Numenoreans)
>
>earlier kings of Numenor probably had more absolute majesty and
Doubt it; Arwen mistook him for a royal Noldo. (and Arwen _is_ a royal
Noldo.) Various Elves who knew Elendil found him extremely reminiscent,
as well; I think this gets skewed because we mostly see Aragorn when he's
being deliberately obscure.
>>should because he never _stopped_ being the greatest hero, either. (If you
>>ever want to make an English prof's head explode, do a thesis comparing
>>Carrot and Aragorn as examples of heroic character lacking in a desire for
>>glory.)
>
> Carrot?
In various Discworld books; the true king of Ankh-Morpok, raised by
dwarves and returns to join the watch.
>>That this left a great ringing hollow silence in her heart is not
>>difficult to imagine; I do not think she regreted her choice, I think that
>>it was only after Aragorn's death that she truly _feared_ her choice.
>
>>That's what I think was saddest about it for Elrond; he knows she's going
>>to die, and he can probably cope with that as a grief, but knowing she's
>>going to find out what an inestimably fearsome thing that choice is and
>>not to be able to tell her - because how _could_ you tell anyone? - would
>>be terrible.
>
> But does Elrond even know? Elves in general seem to have
>quite a bit of trouble comprehending what death and the fear of it are
Not the fear of death; the choice to have a soul.
Elves do not risk damnation; Men do.
I think Elrond knows, he had to make the choice himself and saw his
brother make it the other way around.
>like. Arwen probably isn't the only Elf to scorn the Numenoreans as
>"wicked fools", where most mortals would instantly understand their
I don't think so; it takes a particular world view to want to be
immortal, and it's not necessarily a common one.
>was at hers. (Aside: It always struck me as unfair that Arwen could
>partake of a longevity known only to the Elves, then change her mind
>at age 3000 and become mortal. Did the descendants of Elros have the
>right to reverse _his_ choice?)
I don't think any of them ever tried.
We do know that Tuor become a Noldo; we don't really know how.
Michael S. Schiffer
In article <5upc1a$8...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>In article <EFznK...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>Michael S. Schiffer <ms...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Doubt it; Arwen mistook [Aragorn] for a royal Noldo. (and Arwen _is_ a royal
>Noldo.) Various Elves who knew Elendil found him extremely reminiscent,
>as well; I think this gets skewed because we mostly see Aragorn when he's
>being deliberately obscure.
But how did Elendil or Aragorn stack up against Elros or
Vardamir? The real answer (unless it's been given in one of the HoME
books) is that we don't know. Elros, as Elrond's twin, probably
looked quite a bit like a royal Noldo himself.
>> Carrot?
>In various Discworld books; the true king of Ankh-Morpok, raised by
>dwarves and returns to join the watch.
Oh, yes-- I read enough of _Guards, Guards_ that I should have
known, but thus far Pratchett hasn't done that much for me.
>>>That's what I think was saddest about it for Elrond; he knows she's going
>>>to die, and he can probably cope with that as a grief, but knowing she's
>>>going to find out what an inestimably fearsome thing that choice is and
>>>not to be able to tell her - because how _could_ you tell anyone? - would
>>>be terrible.
>> But does Elrond even know? Elves in general seem to have
>>quite a bit of trouble comprehending what death and the fear of it are
>Not the fear of death; the choice to have a soul.
>Elves do not risk damnation; Men do.
>I think Elrond knows, he had to make the choice himself and saw his
>brother make it the other way around.
Maybe. But I think it's different _to have made_ the choice
to be mortal. Clearly Arwen found it so, since we don't see much
indication that she feared her choice until years afterward.
>>like. Arwen probably isn't the only Elf to scorn the Numenoreans as
>>"wicked fools", where most mortals would instantly understand their
>I don't think so; it takes a particular world view to want to be
>immortal, and it's not necessarily a common one.
I find that hard to believe. Half the human race believes to
some extent in one or another religion which promises immortality (if
only after death and some sort of cleansing). Even among those who
don't, there's quite a bit of interest in various ways around death,
like reincarnation and warmed-over Spiritualism.
Of course, many of these people may not have considered all
the ramifications of not dying. But when death is imminent, I suspect
that quite a number of people would take the option of avoiding it
first and asking questions later.
In Tolkien's world, the inhabitants have hints that there is
_something_ for Men after death, but they don't have much in the way
of details. Certainly not enough to suspect the possibility of
damnation. Ar-Pharazon's army didn't sail for Aman because they
feared damnation. As far as I can tell, what they wanted was not to
die. It was wrong and corrupt and a product of Morgoth's and Sauron's
manipulations, but it permeated the society of Numenor for centuries
_despite_ their having as much information as Men ever did (at least
until historical times) about the One, the Valar, and Mens' place in
the world.
>>was at hers. (Aside: It always struck me as unfair that Arwen could
>>partake of a longevity known only to the Elves, then change her mind
>>at age 3000 and become mortal. Did the descendants of Elros have the
>>right to reverse _his_ choice?)
But how many generations does it take to damp out? Could
Aragorn have become a Noldo? (Or a Telerin Elf, since Thingol was his
ancestor?) How about Elendil? (Imagine the embarassment Ar-Pharazon
might suffer on his way to the Void if Mandos mentioned that he could
have become an Elf at any time. :-) )
>I don't think any of them ever tried.
>We do know that Tuor become a Noldo; we don't really know how.
And despite the fact that both his parents wound up mortal,
Dior Eluchil was for some reason an Elf. Odd, in some ways, that
Elros could choose to be a Man, when his parents and grandparents were
Elves (some by choice), and there were no mortals in his line until
one goes back to Beren and Luthien on the one hand or Huor and ? on
the other.
Graeme A Lindsell
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) writes:
>In article <340B5D...@erols.com>
> clo...@erols.com "Brenda and Larry Clough" writes:
>> way Princess Di got to be a Princess, now and forever, simply by
>> marrying Charles. How come Aragorn didn't immediately get bumped up to
>> elf status by marrying Arwen?
>You're assuming it's "up".
And I don't think JRRT would have thought it was "up"; not
only was he a Christian but Illuvatar is the Christian God. The elves
are tied to this world, and are given the company of the Valar,
but Men (and hobbits as well) are permitted into the presence of
God. I wonder if the reason that Illvatar didn't reveal the fate
of humans after death before all the elves went West is because the
elves would have believed themselves cursed in comparison.
>There are three elf/human marriages, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril,
>Aragorn and Arwen. (The marriage of Earendil and Elwing is more
>complicated...) Tuor and Idril became both elves, the other two cases
>the elf chose to become mortal. I don't see why this was inevitable,
>but perhaps it would have done utterly bizarre things to the world
I think that to Tolkien this was a sign of the grace of Illuvatar:
if they had not had to both choose then these couples would have
been sundered after tone died until the end of the world. By making
them both choose the same fate they remain together. JRRT
believed in eternal marriages, apparently.
(There is also the elvish women who was ancestor of the princes of
Dol Amroth, she ran away after some years of marriage and a pair of
children - perhaps she was afraid of becoming mortal?)
>Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
--
Graeme Lindsell
Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University
"I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the
school leopard."
Graeme A Lindsell
gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
>> But does Elrond even know? Elves in general seem to have
>>quite a bit of trouble comprehending what death and the fear of it are
>Not the fear of death; the choice to have a soul.
>Elves do not risk damnation; Men do.
>I think Elrond knows, he had to make the choice himself and saw his
>brother make it the other way around.
I don't believe Elrond does know: Illuvatar seems to have gone to some
trouble to ensure that the Elves, even those who had the choice, did
not know the fate of Men. If they made the choice based on imperfect
knowledge, they at least had the choice.
An interesting theological question: what happens to orcs after death?
What would happen to an orc that tried to (or was forced to) sail
to the West?
t...@eng.cam.ac.uk
In article <5uvp4t$o...@leonard.anu.edu.au>,
>
>>There are three elf/human marriages, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril,
>>Aragorn and Arwen. (The marriage of Earendil and Elwing is more
>>complicated...) Tuor and Idril became both elves, the other two cases
>>the elf chose to become mortal. I don't see why this was inevitable,
>>but perhaps it would have done utterly bizarre things to the world
>
Wasn't there a fourth, the dark elf (Maeglin???)
and so on...(its in the Silmarillion)..
were not the half-eleven all to be given the choice...?
Elrond choosing to be an Elf, Elros a man...
Regarding Arwen, didn't she choose also (being the daughtter of Elrond) but
having initially chosen to be a man (sic) recanted after the death of
Aragorn... (or soemthing like that...)
Matt Austern
gal...@leonard.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell) writes:
> And I don't think JRRT would have thought it was "up"; not
> only was he a Christian but Illuvatar is the Christian God. The elves
> are tied to this world, and are given the company of the Valar,
> but Men (and hobbits as well) are permitted into the presence of
> God. I wonder if the reason that Illvatar didn't reveal the fate
> of humans after death before all the elves went West is because the
> elves would have believed themselves cursed in comparison.
I believe Tolkien very explicitly did not reveal the ultimate fate of
the elves. Melkor (and also, presumably, the other Valar) did not
know it.
Michael S. Schiffer
In article <5v16ti$13c...@thepope.basis.com>,
Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>Tolkien decided that *normally* the children of a mixed marriage would be
>human, mortal. The Peredhil were given a special choice because their
>forebears had achieved great things against Morgoth (the retrieval of the
>Silmaril, Earendil's embassy to Valinor, etc.). The choice for Elrond and
>Elros, and for Elrond's children, was therefore the exception, not the rule.
What about Dior Eluchil? IIRC, he was an Elf for all intents
and purposes, without even any indication of a choice. Yet his
parents were both mortal in the end. In fact, Dior is only
one-quarter Elf by descent (though of course the other maternal
quarter is immortal as well).
In the case of Aragorn and Arwen, there's no indication that
Eldarion had a choice-- but then there's no indication that Elros'
children had a choice either. (Of course, maybe they did, and it was
simply not reported.) It's not clear that there _was_ a general rule
aside from the specific provisions for the Peredhil made at the end of
the War of Wrath. What was Earendil _before_ the Valar asked him to
choose? Why were Dior and Elwing (apparently) Elves before the Valar
ruled on the case, while being descended from mortals? Do Arwen's
children have a choice, and if not, why not? Or does it just depend
on whether you're going to go on to rule an elf-kingdom or a kingdom
of Men?
William George Ferguson
> J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) writes:
> >There are three elf/human marriages, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril,
> >Aragorn and Arwen. (The marriage of Earendil and Elwing is more
> >complicated...) Tuor and Idril became both elves, the other two cases
> >the elf chose to become mortal. I don't see why this was inevitable,
> >but perhaps it would have done utterly bizarre things to the world
There is nothing in Tolkien that prevents there being many joinings of
quendi and human, in fact indications are rather the reverse. Per
Tolkien, however, there were only four great joinings of the Calaquendi
(the elves who saw the two trees of Valinor in bloom, and their children)
and the Edain (Fathers of Men), the four human tribes that entered
Beleriand, became the allies of the Noldor in 'the long defeat', fought on
the side of the Host of Valinor in the War of Wrath, and were given
Numenor in reward; Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril, Earendil/Elwing, and
Aragorn/Arwen.
Beren was, and remained, human, although he got special dispensation and
returned from the dead. When he died the second time, he and Luthien
departed from Arda.
Luthien was only half-elven (and half-ainur) and chose the human fate.
Tuor was, and remained, human.
Idril was Noldor. It is not clear whether she chose the human fate.
Tour and Idril sailed into the uttermost west and disappeared. There is
no indication in anything I've read by Tolkien that they were allowed to
reach Valinor. (There is reference to a legend of men which the eldar
didn't believe)
Earendil was half-human/half-elven
Elwing was one-fourth human/five-eighths elven/one-eighth ainur (and had a
silmaril)
As Elwing pointed out to the Valar, Earendil had as much right to be
considered eldalie as she.
Elros and Elrond were three-eighths human/nine-sixteenths
elven/one-sixteenth ainur.
Even given massive intermarriage in the line of Elros, by the time of
Aragorn, the heritage would be pretty much human, although apparantly
completely Numenorian in descent.
Arwen (and for that matter Elladen and Elrohir) was three-sixteenths
human/twenty-five thirty-secondths elven/one thirty-second ainur
The only ones that chose to be eldar had as much right by descent to be
considered eldar as human (Earendil, Elrond, and the children of Elrond).
No pure human was ever shown as being able to choose the fate of the
Eldar, and escape the Gift of Man (not even Tuor). Beren got a temporary
dispensation, but it was clear to the Valar that the hand of Eru was on
him directly.
--
annoying signature --
Michael Martinez
In article <873221...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk wrote:
>There are three elf/human marriages, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril,
>Aragorn and Arwen. (The marriage of Earendil and Elwing is more
>complicated...)
There were three marriages of the Eldar and Edain, but more marriages of Elves
and Men.
>Tuor and Idril became both elves,
Idril already was an elf. :)
And it's not definite that Tuor became an Elf. Tolkien left room for doubt on
that issue, probably because he never got back to the later part of the
SILMARILLION (beyond a few cursory ideas which would have resulted in a very
different ending for the First Age).
>the other two cases the elf chose to become mortal. I don't see why this
>was inevitable, but perhaps it would have done utterly bizarre things to
>the world if elves and humans could have children normally and then the
>humans die. ("In the two thousand years since my mother died of old age,
>I've aged hardly at all. I think of that sometimes.")
Tolkien decided that *normally* the children of a mixed marriage would be
human, mortal. The Peredhil were given a special choice because their
forebears had achieved great things against Morgoth (the retrieval of the
Silmaril, Earendil's embassy to Valinor, etc.). The choice for Elrond and
Elros, and for Elrond's children, was therefore the exception, not the rule.
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mich...@swcp.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
Michael Martinez
In article <5upc1a$8...@excalibur.gooroos.com>, gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) wrote:
>In article <EFznK...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>Michael S. Schiffer <ms...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
[some snippage occurred about here]
>>>That this left a great ringing hollow silence in her heart is not
>>>difficult to imagine; I do not think she regreted her choice, I think that
>>>it was only after Aragorn's death that she truly _feared_ her choice.
>>
>>>That's what I think was saddest about it for Elrond; he knows she's going
>>>to die, and he can probably cope with that as a grief, but knowing she's
>>>going to find out what an inestimably fearsome thing that choice is and
>>>not to be able to tell her - because how _could_ you tell anyone? - would
>>>be terrible.
>>
>> But does Elrond even know? Elves in general seem to have
>>quite a bit of trouble comprehending what death and the fear of it are
>
>Not the fear of death; the choice to have a soul.
Elves have souls, just like Men, in Tolkien.
>Elves do not risk damnation; Men do.
They most certainly do risk damnation. Elves have a sort of purgatory in Aman
(the Halls of Mandos, where some stay until the End of Ea) but they don't know
what happens afterward.
>I think Elrond knows, he had to make the choice himself and saw his
>brother make it the other way around.
>
>>like. Arwen probably isn't the only Elf to scorn the Numenoreans as
>>"wicked fools", where most mortals would instantly understand their
>
>I don't think so; it takes a particular world view to want to be
>immortal, and it's not necessarily a common one.
Most of the Numenoreans wanted to be immortal. Tolkien himself said the book
was about death and the search for deathlessness.
>>was at hers. (Aside: It always struck me as unfair that Arwen could
>>partake of a longevity known only to the Elves, then change her mind
>>at age 3000 and become mortal. Did the descendants of Elros have the
>>right to reverse _his_ choice?)
>
>I don't think any of them ever tried.
Certainly the Numenorean Kings tried. One listened to but did not heed the
messages of the Valar concerning the choice of Elros, and another tried to
take immortality by storm. That was why Numenor was destroyed.
>We do know that Tuor become a Noldo; we don't really know how.
We don't *know* this at all. It's merely assumed in the text that he became
one. There is, however, no further mention of Tuor in any legend pertaining
to Valinor in the Second Age.
Graydon
In article <5uvpg3$p...@leonard.anu.edu.au>,
Graeme A Lindsell <gal...@leonard.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
>>> But does Elrond even know? Elves in general seem to have
>>>quite a bit of trouble comprehending what death and the fear of it are
>
>>Not the fear of death; the choice to have a soul.
>
>
>>brother make it the other way around.
>
>trouble to ensure that the Elves, even those who had the choice, did
>not know the fate of Men. If they made the choice based on imperfect
>knowledge, they at least had the choice.
I think Elrond knew, remembers knowing, and has seen many generations
of Elendil's descendants live and grow old and die; I think he knows in at
least an imprefect, intellectual way, what the Doom of Men is. I think
he's the _only_ one of the Elves who does, even that well.
> An interesting theological question: what happens to orcs after death?
Mandos, if they were elves in their inception.
>What would happen to an orc that tried to (or was forced to) sail
>to the West?
I don't think you can get there with an orc on board, the first age
defences are still there. So you'd have a worse time of it than Earendil
did until you threw the orc overboard.
Graydon
In article <5v16ie$13c...@thepope.basis.com>,
Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>>Not the fear of death; the choice to have a soul.
>
>Elves have souls, just like Men, in Tolkien.
It _can't_ be 'just like Men', or there would be none of the doubt about
what happens when the world is remade; no one knows what happens to the
elves then, but it is known what happens to men.
I would also think it very clear that Elves have material immortality
within the confines (in space and time) of Arda, and that their existence
is bound to the material creation of Arda; that doesn't sound like having
souls just like men to me. Where are you getting the assertion that Elves
have souls?
(Sf plot - find Maglor, still wandering the coasts of the Earth, and put
him on a rocket to Mars. What happens?)
>>Elves do not risk damnation; Men do.
>
>They most certainly do risk damnation. Elves have a sort of purgatory in Aman
>(the Halls of Mandos, where some stay until the End of Ea) but they don't know
>what happens afterward.
They have moral responsibility for their acts; they are bound to Arda, and
do not risk the sort of eternal damnation men risk unless it's known for
sure they persist beyond Arda.
>>I think Elrond knows, he had to make the choice himself and saw his
>>brother make it the other way around.
>>
>>>like. Arwen probably isn't the only Elf to scorn the Numenoreans as
>>>"wicked fools", where most mortals would instantly understand their
>>
>>I don't think so; it takes a particular world view to want to be
>>immortal, and it's not necessarily a common one.
>
>Most of the Numenoreans wanted to be immortal. Tolkien himself said the book
>was about death and the search for deathlessness.
Deathlessness <> immortal; men are already immortal in the Middle Earth
cosmology. Elves, although deathless in Ea, are not known to be immortal.
>>>was at hers. (Aside: It always struck me as unfair that Arwen could
>>>partake of a longevity known only to the Elves, then change her mind
>>>at age 3000 and become mortal. Did the descendants of Elros have the
>>>right to reverse _his_ choice?)
>>
>>I don't think any of them ever tried.
>
>Certainly the Numenorean Kings tried. One listened to but did not heed the
It doesn't sound like they tried to make a choice to be elves; it sounds
like they tried to find a technological solution to aging.
>messages of the Valar concerning the choice of Elros, and another tried to
>take immortality by storm. That was why Numenor was destroyed.
Well, deathlessness, yes, and I do know that. But that's not the same
thing as trying to choose to be an elf.
>>We do know that Tuor become a Noldo; we don't really know how.
>
>We don't *know* this at all. It's merely assumed in the text that he became
>one. There is, however, no further mention of Tuor in any legend pertaining
>to Valinor in the Second Age.
Ok, yes, strictly, it's only said of Tuor that he became a Noldo, we don't
know that for sure. I am quite willing to accept that he did, and we _do_
know that Earendil and Elrond, who could have gone either way, became
elves. (and Men and Elves are interfertile, too, so it's not a material
difference, whatever it is.)
Anton Sherwood
William George Ferguson <ferg...@dist.maricopa.edu> writes
: There is nothing in Tolkien that prevents there being many joinings of
: quendi and human, in fact indications are rather the reverse. ...
By "indications" I suppose you mean Dol Amroth. (That case is unusual
enough to be remembered, but not unusual enough to demand extraordinary
proof.) Are there other examples?
I find it interesting that there's no record of a male Elf marrying a
mortal woman! What are we to make of that?
I wondered whether there might be half-Dwarves in Dale, but
on second thought such a union likely isn't fertile.
Nancy of the Buttons
In article <5uvp4t$o...@leonard.anu.edu.au>,
>
>>In article <340B5D...@erols.com>
>> clo...@erols.com "Brenda and Larry Clough" writes:
>
>>> way Princess Di got to be a Princess, now and forever, simply by
>>> marrying Charles. How come Aragorn didn't immediately get bumped up to
>>> elf status by marrying Arwen?
>
>>You're assuming it's "up".
>
>only was he a Christian but Illuvatar is the Christian God. The elves
>are tied to this world, and are given the company of the Valar,
>but Men (and hobbits as well) are permitted into the presence of
>God. I wonder if the reason that Illvatar didn't reveal the fate
>of humans after death before all the elves went West is because the
>elves would have believed themselves cursed in comparison.
>
(Middle) earthly hierarchy. He sets up hierarchy, and then undercuts
them in some ways (mere hobbits are essential to defeating Sauron,
and it takes a bad hobbit as well as good ones) and supports it
in others (it's an excellent thing that Aragorn is on the throne).
I'd say that marrying an elf is marrying up for a human.
Nancy Lebovitz
Matt Austern
gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
> > I don't believe Elrond does know: Illuvatar seems to have gone to some
> >trouble to ensure that the Elves, even those who had the choice, did
> >not know the fate of Men. If they made the choice based on imperfect
> >knowledge, they at least had the choice.
>
> I think Elrond knew, remembers knowing, and has seen many generations
> of Elendil's descendants live and grow old and die; I think he knows in at
> least an imprefect, intellectual way, what the Doom of Men is. I think
> he's the _only_ one of the Elves who does, even that well.
What's not clear, though, is whether he knew what the equivalent "Doom
of Elves" is. I don't think anybody knew.
It's quite explicit that that Valar sympathized with elves more than
with men: they did not understand men's "strange gifts". Somewhat
paradoxically, though, the Valar did know what would happen to men
after the end of the world but did not know what would happen to
elves.
Christopher Dearlove
In article <5v1bcm$p...@excalibur.gooroos.com>, Graydon
<URL:mailto:gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
> In article <5uvpg3$p...@leonard.anu.edu.au>,
> >
> > An interesting theological question: what happens to orcs after death?
>
> Mandos, if they were elves in their inception.
I suspect they gave that up and died. This is by analogy with the death of
Saruman (and the downfall of Sauron is related also) where (as I see it)
Saruman's spirit (or whatever) reached back to the West, where it once
belonged, but the West rejected it. Likewise I suspect Mandos would reject
the orcs.
On the other hand you can make up any number of theories about this and
many other matters and the evidence isn't there and often that's for the
better.
--
Christopher Dearlove ch...@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
Graydon
In article <fxtbu22...@isolde.mti.sgi.com>,
Matt Austern <aus...@isolde.mti.sgi.com> wrote:
>gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
>> I think Elrond knew, remembers knowing, and has seen many generations
>> of Elendil's descendants live and grow old and die; I think he knows in at
>> least an imprefect, intellectual way, what the Doom of Men is. I think
>> he's the _only_ one of the Elves who does, even that well.
>
>What's not clear, though, is whether he knew what the equivalent "Doom
>of Elves" is. I don't think anybody knew.
No one not Eru, maybe, or possibly Namo; there are a lot of things he
knows but hasn't said.
>It's quite explicit that that Valar sympathized with elves more than
>with men: they did not understand men's "strange gifts". Somewhat
>paradoxically, though, the Valar did know what would happen to men
>after the end of the world but did not know what would happen to
>elves.
Well, this isn't really paradoxical; saying Elves have immortal souls is
something Tolkein's imagination would shy away from - there is a very
large theological can of worms, there - and saying outright that they will
cease to exist with Arda (which is the obvious and even compelling thing
to have happen to them) is unduly gloomy, even for the man who wrote Narn
i hin Hurin.
Phil Fraering
gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
> Well, this isn't really paradoxical; saying Elves have immortal souls is
> something Tolkein's imagination would shy away from - there is a very
> large theological can of worms, there - and saying outright that they will
> cease to exist with Arda (which is the obvious and even compelling thing
> to have happen to them) is unduly gloomy, even for the man who wrote Narn
> i hin Hurin.
Can you explain these statements in depth? Why would Tolkien have problems
with the idea of Elves having immortal souls? They aren't clearly animals,
and they don't seem to have *that* much semblance to "real" elves or
elf-analogues in mythology that have been reported as being soulless.
In Irish mythology "elves" are portrayed as the souls of the dead, aren't
they? Or am I misinterpreting Yeats and Gregory, or possibly did they
misinterpret someone else?
Phil Fraering "Somewhere in the back of her mind, she had always
p...@globalreach.net had a vision of the Slowness as a stifling darkness
whirr... ching! lit at best by torches, the domain of cretins and
/Will work for *tape*/ mechanical calculators." - V. Vinge, _A Fire Upon The
Deep_
Michael Martinez
In article <EG776...@midway.uchicago.edu>, ms...@midway.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) wrote:
>In article <5v16ti$13c...@thepope.basis.com>,
>Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>
>>Tolkien decided that *normally* the children of a mixed marriage would be
>>human, mortal. The Peredhil were given a special choice because their
>>forebears had achieved great things against Morgoth (the retrieval of the
>>Silmaril, Earendil's embassy to Valinor, etc.). The choice for Elrond and
>>Elros, and for Elrond's children, was therefore the exception, not the rule.
>
> What about Dior Eluchil? IIRC, he was an Elf for all intents
>and purposes, without even any indication of a choice. Yet his
>parents were both mortal in the end. In fact, Dior is only
>one-quarter Elf by descent (though of course the other maternal
>quarter is immortal as well).
Many readers infer that Dior was an Elf or a half-elf of Elven choice, but
nowhere does Tolkien make any such statement. Dior was born to mortal
parents. Why should he have been an Elf?
He died relatively young even for a man so there is no textual evidence to
indicate what would have become of him.
However, Tolkien does say that the children of Earendil and Elwing were given
special consideration (as Earendil and Elwing were) because of Earendil's
mission and because of the deeds (and sacrifices) of their forebears.
The issue of the choice did not even come up until Earendil had made his plea
before Manwe. It was at that time that the Valar debated whether Earendil
should be punished for entering the Undying Lands, and it was not until Manwe
consulted with Iluvatar that it became clear the Valar had the authority to
grant a choice to anyone.
Dior had been dead many years by this time, as well as his sons Elured and
Elurin. They were thus all, apparently, mortal.
> In the case of Aragorn and Arwen, there's no indication that
>Eldarion had a choice-- but then there's no indication that Elros'
>children had a choice either. (Of course, maybe they did, and it was
>simply not reported.)
This is incorrect. It is clearly stated in "Akallabeth" that choice was
withheld from Elros' descendants. He made the choice for his family. It's
not explained (or justified) why Elrond's children should also have a choice.
For an example of other half-elves who were mortal, look at the legend of
Imrazor the Numenorean and Mithrellas the Silvan Elf (hand-maiden of
Nimrodel). Their children, Galador and Gilmith, were mortal and never had an
opportunity for choice.
Michael S. Schiffer
In article <5v6ri0$t0_...@thepope.basis.com>,
Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>In article <EG776...@midway.uchicago.edu>, ms...@midway.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) wrote:
>>In article <5v16ti$13c...@thepope.basis.com>,
>>Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>>>Tolkien decided that *normally* the children of a mixed marriage would be
>>>human, mortal. The Peredhil were given a special choice because their
>>>forebears had achieved great things against Morgoth (the retrieval of the
>>>Silmaril, Earendil's embassy to Valinor, etc.). The choice for Elrond and
>>>Elros, and for Elrond's children, was therefore the exception, not the rule.
>> What about Dior Eluchil? IIRC, he was an Elf for all intents
>>and purposes, without even any indication of a choice. Yet his
>>parents were both mortal in the end. In fact, Dior is only
>>one-quarter Elf by descent (though of course the other maternal
>>quarter is immortal as well).
>Many readers infer that Dior was an Elf or a half-elf of Elven choice, but
>nowhere does Tolkien make any such statement. Dior was born to mortal
>parents. Why should he have been an Elf?
Because it seems inconceivable that the ruler of Doriath in
the First Age would be a Man, child of Beren and Luthien or not.
Moreover, if Dior were a Man, then his marriage to an Elf would be yet
another union of the Eldar and the Edain, and it's not recorded as
such. His designation as "Thingol's heir" (as opposed to, say,
"Beren's heir") strongly indicates that he was regarded as an Elf, not
a Man.
>He died relatively young even for a man so there is no textual evidence to
>indicate what would have become of him.
Except, again, that the Elves of Doriath accepted him as their
King. I know of no case in which a Man ruled over a kingdom of Elves,
and Doriath was the oldest Elf-kingdom in Beleriand.
>However, Tolkien does say that the children of Earendil and Elwing were given
>special consideration (as Earendil and Elwing were) because of Earendil's
>mission and because of the deeds (and sacrifices) of their forebears.
>The issue of the choice did not even come up until Earendil had made his plea
>before Manwe. It was at that time that the Valar debated whether Earendil
>should be punished for entering the Undying Lands, and it was not until Manwe
>consulted with Iluvatar that it became clear the Valar had the authority to
>grant a choice to anyone.
>Dior had been dead many years by this time, as well as his sons Elured and
>Elurin. They were thus all, apparently, mortal.
Indeterminate-- they were killed, IIRC, rather than dying
naturally. Moreover, Elured and Elurin were half-Elven even if Dior
was mortal (or, by descent, over half) and there's no textual reason
to think that the mortal half would predominate if there was one.
There were only three half-elves to consider before the
Valar's ruling: Dior and his children (other than Elwing). All other
_peredhil_ were covered by that ruling, even though it's unclear why
Elrond's children were also given a choice. (IMHO, it was because
Tolkien wanted to create the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen; there was
no way to do that without direct intervention by the Valar except to
say that the choice extended to her generation.) All we really know
about those people is that they were a) regarded as royalty in an
Elven kingdom, in a way that the descendants of Elros never seem to
have been, and b) they were killed before their natural lifespan was
demonstrated. (Though it was presumably clear whether Dior was aging
like a Man or an Elf before he was killed, no record I know of
mentions it.)
Thus, there's no definitive answer either way. IMHO, the
internal evidence of Dior being deemed the heir of the seniormost lord
of the Teleri, of his ruling an elven kingdom and marrying an Elf
without any recorded controversy suggests that he was regarded as an
Elf for all intents and purposes. Against that, there's the fact that
his parents were both mortal at the time of his birth (though that
wouldn't be true for his children). Is there any further evidence to
weigh in?
>...
>For an example of other half-elves who were mortal, look at the legend of
>Imrazor the Numenorean and Mithrellas the Silvan Elf (hand-maiden of
>Nimrodel). Their children, Galador and Gilmith, were mortal and never had an
>opportunity for choice.
Perhaps it just never occurred to them that they might?
Growing up in a mortal community, abandoned by their Elvish mother,
they might have "chosen" under Manwe's dictum without realizing that
they were doing so.
Michael Martinez
In article <EGB9p...@midway.uchicago.edu>, ms...@midway.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) wrote:
>In article <5v6ri0$t0_...@thepope.basis.com>,
>Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>>Many readers infer that Dior was an Elf or a half-elf of Elven choice, but
>>nowhere does Tolkien make any such statement. Dior was born to mortal
>>parents. Why should he have been an Elf?
>
> Because it seems inconceivable that the ruler of Doriath in
>the First Age would be a Man, child of Beren and Luthien or not.
>Moreover, if Dior were a Man, then his marriage to an Elf would be yet
>another union of the Eldar and the Edain, and it's not recorded as
>such. His designation as "Thingol's heir" (as opposed to, say,
>"Beren's heir") strongly indicates that he was regarded as an Elf, not
>a Man.
"Thingol's Heir" doesn't indicate anything about Dior's race. It merely
indicates he became King of Doriath. He wasn't called "Eluchil" until after
he re-established the kingdom.
In THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH Dior is said to be the first of the Peredhil
(Half-elven):
"...But it was told in the legend of Beren and Luthien that Luthien
learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together
and ever after used it in their speech together. Not long before
they came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why
she did so, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful.
Then she became silent and her eyes seemed to look far away before
she answered: 'Why? Because I must forsake thee, or else forsake
my own people and become one of the children of Men. Since I
will never forsake thee, I must learn the speech of thy kin,
and mine.' Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his
father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he
said: 'I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am
also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.'"
This is taken from the essay Christopher Tolkien presents in "The Problem of
Ros." However, the essay is filled with inconsistencies as far as published
works go. For one thing, in THE SILMARILLION states that the Beorians forsook
their native language in favor of Sindarin, and yet here Beren is said to
still be fluent in Beorian and only speaks Sindarin haltingly (so crudely, in
fact, that he offends Thingol when he does so). So this was a very radical
idea in itself.
On the other hand, we are not told at what point in his life Dior made the
statement cited above. It could be that this is merely a figurative
attribution, intended only to embed the legacy of the kingship in legend.
In any event, the only account we have of Dior's having assumed the throne of
Doriath was written by Christopher Tolkien (with help from Guy Gavriel Kay).
And even that account still occurs BEFORE the choice was appointed to any of
the Peredhil.
>>He died relatively young even for a man so there is no textual evidence to
>>indicate what would have become of him.
>
> Except, again, that the Elves of Doriath accepted him as their
>King. I know of no case in which a Man ruled over a kingdom of Elves,
>and Doriath was the oldest Elf-kingdom in Beleriand.
Doriath was the second-eldest Elf-realm. Cirdan's realm in the Falas was
older, although by the time Dior assumed the throne the Falas was in Melkor's
hands. Age of the kingdom, however, would have no bearing on whether the
Elves would accept a mortal half-Elf as their king.
There were Elves living in Gondor after Tarannon Falastur extended the sway of
his kingdom westward along the coast. Tolkien doesn't tell us whether
Edhellond was formally incorporated into the realm or not.
It should have been sufficient for the Elves that Dior was the son of Luthien.
Whether he was mortal or not shouldn't have mattered. Certainly there is no
indication in any of Tolkien's works that the Elves would have refused Dior
for being mortal.
>>However, Tolkien does say that the children of Earendil and Elwing were given
>>special consideration (as Earendil and Elwing were) because of Earendil's
>>mission and because of the deeds (and sacrifices) of their forebears.
>
>>The issue of the choice did not even come up until Earendil had made his plea
>>before Manwe. It was at that time that the Valar debated whether Earendil
>>should be punished for entering the Undying Lands, and it was not until Manwe
>>consulted with Iluvatar that it became clear the Valar had the authority to
>>grant a choice to anyone.
>
>>Dior had been dead many years by this time, as well as his sons Elured and
>>Elurin. They were thus all, apparently, mortal.
>
> Indeterminate-- they were killed, IIRC, rather than dying
>naturally. Moreover, Elured and Elurin were half-Elven even if Dior
>was mortal (or, by descent, over half) and there's no textual reason
>to think that the mortal half would predominate if there was one.
Sorry, but that is nonsense. The choice was given only to Earendil, Elwing,
and their sons (and then to Elrond's children). Tolkien stated that by
default the children of men and Elves were regarded as men. That is why the
children of Mithrellas were not allowed to sail over Sea. They were mortal.
Dior was mortal. Elured and Elurin were mortal. Earendil and Elwing were
given a special grace.
> There were only three half-elves to consider before the
>Valar's ruling: Dior and his children (other than Elwing). All other
>_peredhil_ were covered by that ruling, even though it's unclear why
>Elrond's children were also given a choice.
The children of Mithrellas were NOT covered by the ruling. The ruling was
applied ONLY to Earendil's family.
>(IMHO, it was because Tolkien wanted to create the Tale of Aragorn and
>Arwen; there was no way to do that without direct intervention by the
>Valar except to say that the choice extended to her generation.) All
>we really know about those people is that they were a) regarded as
>royalty in an Elven kingdom, in a way that the descendants of Elros
>never seem to have been, and b) they were killed before their natural
>lifespan was demonstrated. (Though it was presumably clear whether
>Dior was aging like a Man or an Elf before he was killed, no record
>I know of mentions it.)
It need not be significant, given the young age at which Dior died. Many of
the Edain in their youth were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar.
> Thus, there's no definitive answer either way. IMHO, the
>internal evidence of Dior being deemed the heir of the seniormost lord
>of the Teleri, of his ruling an elven kingdom and marrying an Elf
>without any recorded controversy suggests that he was regarded as an
>Elf for all intents and purposes. Against that, there's the fact that
>his parents were both mortal at the time of his birth (though that
>wouldn't be true for his children). Is there any further evidence to
>weigh in?
Obviously the evidence isn't being given any consideration since it undermines
your theory. Nothing in the texts suggest that Dior was considered to be of
Elvenkind, and yet you insist they must suggest this. Tolkien stated that the
choice appointed to Earendil and Elwing was special, and yet you don't address
that point.
>>For an example of other half-elves who were mortal, look at the legend of
>>Imrazor the Numenorean and Mithrellas the Silvan Elf (hand-maiden of
>>Nimrodel). Their children, Galador and Gilmith, were mortal and never had an
>>opportunity for choice.
>
> Perhaps it just never occurred to them that they might?
>Growing up in a mortal community, abandoned by their Elvish mother,
>they might have "chosen" under Manwe's dictum without realizing that
>they were doing so.
Nope.
Argue all you wish. Tolkien disagreed with you.
Nancy Lebovitz
>
>>>In article <5ujtq8$v...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>>>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>>[SNIP]
>> (If you
>>>>ever want to make an English prof's head explode, do a thesis comparing
>>>>Carrot and Aragorn as examples of heroic character lacking in a desire for
>>>>glory.)
>>>
This no doubt depends on the English professor--I'm currently rereading
_Strategies of Fantasy_ by Brian Attebury, a civilized and well-informed
academic book about fantasy.
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <5ufonj$d...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>(And mind you that the reason Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam got to go is so
>they could be healed of Ring-addiction before they died. Gimli wanted
>to see Galadriel once more--before he died (though apparently Dwarves
>reincarnate).
Are you sure that it's Ring-addiction? I read it more as (at least
in Frodo's case) post-traumatic stress from that Nazgul knife-wound,
or some other failure to completely recover from it.
Also, I assumed that Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were taken to the undying
lands as a reward--Sam, at least, doesn't seem to have taken any
permanent damage from the Ring.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <873146...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>In article <dasherEF...@netcom.com>
> das...@netcom.com "Anton Sherwood" writes:
>>
>> That ring is thousands of years old, and is not the only very ancient
>> artifact carried about by Men. In our world, what's the longest time
>> that a portable artifact has endured without being lost or buried?
>
>I was talking to my son, who's recently been racing through Tolkien,
>about the recent threads here about it, and mentioned Michael's
>idea of someone exavating the Silmaril. Sasha asked if one of them
>might be found on Venus. Completely and utterly stumped me.
>
It's as likely to be there as on Earth.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <5ufib8$o4o$1...@hole.sdsu.edu>,
tomlinson <etom...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>
>Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: I was talking to my son, who's recently been racing through Tolkien,
>: about the recent threads here about it, and mentioned Michael's
>: idea of someone exavating the Silmaril.
>
>I must have missed this idea. I suppose it could be worked into a
>good story. Er, I'm racking my brains for stories about dug-up
>mythical artifacts. The only one that comes to mind is a very
>strange tale by Charles Williams, _War in Heaven_. Um...Christ,
>there _must_ be hundreds of stories about 20th-century folk
>accidently discovering Excalibur, or the Tarnhelm, or other
>such numinous objects. I vaguely remember that a number of
>comic-book plots revolved about the discovery of artifacts that
>convey magical powers to their discoverers.
>
"The Runestone" by Mark Rogers would qualify, but it may only
have been published in a small press edition.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <paik-02099...@3.paik.webnexus.com>,
Samuel S. Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> wrote:
>
>In article <EFv1A...@iglou.com>, og...@iglou2.iglou.com (Ogre) wrote:
>>>Er, I'm racking my brains for stories about dug-up
>>>mythical artifacts.
>
>Somewhat related is the story (by Turtledove?) which ends with
>the development of FTL travel by a civilization risen from the
>ashes of ours.
>
_Excalibur_ by Sanders Ann Laubenthal might qualify.
David Eppstein
: strange tale by Charles Williams, _War in Heaven_.
Surely I'm not the only one who read Greg Benford's _Artifact_?
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Graydon
In article <5v7gb8$b...@universe.digex.net>,
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>>>In article <5ujtq8$v...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>>>>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>>>[SNIP]
>>> (If you
>>>>>ever want to make an English prof's head explode, do a thesis comparing
>>>>>Carrot and Aragorn as examples of heroic character lacking in a desire for
>>>>>glory.)
>>>>
>This no doubt depends on the English professor--I'm currently rereading
>_Strategies of Fantasy_ by Brian Attebury, a civilized and well-informed
>academic book about fantasy.
I think it would work better on English professors who were already
interested in fantasy.
Carrot is the straight man in an awful lot of jokes, and Pratchet uses
that to say the _same_ things Tolkien says by taking Aragorn very
seriously indeed, only differently spun, somehow. I think it could be a
very good thesis; if a person of brilliance got ahold of it, they might
manage to explain post-modernism and the change in assumptions it
involved, and the change in assumptions getting over the awful nihilism
involved, too.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <5v7vcl$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>
>In article <5v7gb8$b...@universe.digex.net>,
>Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>>>>In article <5ujtq8$v...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
>>>>>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>>>>[SNIP]
>>>> (If you
>>>>>>ever want to make an English prof's head explode, do a thesis comparing
>>>>>>Carrot and Aragorn as examples of heroic character lacking in a desire for
>>>>>>glory.)
>>>>>
>>This no doubt depends on the English professor--I'm currently rereading
>>_Strategies of Fantasy_ by Brian Attebury, a civilized and well-informed
>>academic book about fantasy.
>
>I think it would work better on English professors who were already
>interested in fantasy.
>
>Carrot is the straight man in an awful lot of jokes, and Pratchet uses
>that to say the _same_ things Tolkien says by taking Aragorn very
>seriously indeed, only differently spun, somehow. I think it could be a
>very good thesis; if a person of brilliance got ahold of it, they might
>manage to explain post-modernism and the change in assumptions it
>involved, and the change in assumptions getting over the awful nihilism
>involved, too.
>
It's been a bit since I've read _Guards! Guards!_, but, imho, the
most striking difference is that Aragorn shows responsibility by
becoming King, and Carrot shows it (or at least gets the strong
respect of his Author) by not even being interested in being
King.
It looks to me like a difference in political theory and/or taste
in myths.
It might be fun to analyse them for differences/similarities in
leadership style.
Michael S. Schiffer
In article <5v79sd$ms_...@thepope.basis.com>,
Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>In article <EGB9p...@midway.uchicago.edu>, ms...@midway.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) wrote:
>>In article <5v6ri0$t0_...@thepope.basis.com>,
>>Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>...
>>>Dior had been dead many years by this time, as well as his sons Elured and
>>>Elurin. They were thus all, apparently, mortal.
>> Indeterminate-- they were killed, IIRC, rather than dying
>>naturally. Moreover, Elured and Elurin were half-Elven even if Dior
>>was mortal (or, by descent, over half) and there's no textual reason
>>to think that the mortal half would predominate if there was one.
>Sorry, but that is nonsense. The choice was given only to Earendil, Elwing,
>and their sons (and then to Elrond's children). Tolkien stated that by
>default the children of men and Elves were regarded as men. That is why the
>children of Mithrellas were not allowed to sail over Sea. They were mortal.
>Dior was mortal. Elured and Elurin were mortal. Earendil and Elwing were
>given a special grace.
>...
>> Thus, there's no definitive answer either way.
>...
>>Is there any further evidence to weigh in?
> Obviously the evidence isn't being given any consideration since it
> undermines your theory. Nothing in the texts suggest that Dior was
> considered to be of Elvenkind, and yet you insist they must suggest
> this.
Ahem. This is getting to be a bit heated. "Obviously the
evidence isn't being any consideration"? "That is nonsense"? I
thought we were having a civil discussion.
I already gave the evidence, albeit circumstantial, that
_suggests_ (not proves, not establishes, but suggests) that Dior was
regarded as an Elf. He was king of an Elf-kingdom, as no mortal man
ever was as far as I know. He was heir to Elwe. Moreover, _every_
major Elf-Man marriage was the subject of comment and legend: Tuor and
Idril, Beren and Luthien, Aragorn and Arwen, even Imrazor and
Mithrellas. Dior, apparently, drew no such comment in marrying
Nimloth, nor did the fact that Doriath would now be ruled by a mortal
line get even a recorded raised eyebrow.
I'm not familiar with the text you cite, and would appreciate
a source and quote. But Tolkien went through numerous different
conceptions of any number of stories. Was Celeborn a Sinda or a
Telerin Elf of Aman? Was Earendil (or Earendel) forever separated
from Elwing after their journey to Aman or did he return to her
regularly? Were Orcs descended from Elves or Men? Was Aragorn's
Elessar made in the First Age or the Second? There are also
ambiguities without clear answers: surely we don't need to restart one
of those endless "Who is Bombadil?" threads?
It's not at all clear to me that, at the time that Dior was
portrayed as king of Doriath, he was intended to be mortal, since none
of the consequences one would expect from that taking place (not least
the wonder that the realm of Thingol, who had once held Men in
contempt, now passed to one of that kindred) appear in the text.
Leaving that aside, though, you can have the last word. I'd
only ask that you consider cooling off before you post. Even if I
were posting that Frodo was an Elf of Numenor, what purpose is served
by such an acerbic tone? It's easy enough to quote text to prove me
wrong. And even if I persist in my wrongheaded and insupportable
views, where's the harm in that? (In any case, if the quote is
sufficiently unambiguous and definitive, I might even change my mind,
mirabile dictu!) Conversely, if you simply can't stand to see such
misinformation posted on Usenet, well, it's probably best that we end
the discussion, isn't it?
Michael Martinez
In article <EGCno...@midway.uchicago.edu>, ms...@midway.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) wrote:
> I already gave the evidence, albeit circumstantial, that
>_suggests_ (not proves, not establishes, but suggests) that Dior was
>regarded as an Elf. He was king of an Elf-kingdom, as no mortal man
>ever was as far as I know.
Dior (a mortal) was king of an Elf-kingdom. Your assertion is invalid since
it presupposes that your argument is correct.
>He was heir to Elwe.
Which means nothing. Tolkien nowhere states or implies that in order to
inherit authority or a realm one must be of the same kindred as a predecessor.
>Moreover, _every_ major Elf-Man marriage was the subject of comment
>and legend: Tuor and Idril, Beren and Luthien, Aragorn and Arwen,
>even Imrazor and Mithrellas. Dior, apparently, drew no such comment
>in marrying Nimloth, nor did the fact that Doriath would now be ruled
>by a mortal line get even a recorded raised eyebrow.
What sort of comment do you feel Dior should have had concerning his marriage
to Nimloth? Tolkien never even finally decided who she was, or whether she
survived the Ruin of Doriath (in one place she was a Nandorin Elf, in another
place she was descended from Elmo with Celeborn, toward the end of his life
Tolkien decided Celeborn was descended from Olwe).
For that matter, what sort of special comment do you feel was made about the
other marriages that singled them out? Imrazor and Mithrellas were
not considered in the "three unions of the Eldar and the Edain".
Should Dior, a half-Elf, have been considered an Adan? Why?
You're inferring that mortal parents should somehow give birth to an immortal
child whereas a mortal parent and immortal parent (according to Tolkien)
produce only mortal children. This seems an extraordinary concept.
The Valar debated whether Earendil and Elwing should be considered Elves or
Men and they couldn't decide. So they asked Iluvatar what to do and he said
let them choose. They chose.
> I'm not familiar with the text you cite, and would appreciate
>a source and quote. But Tolkien went through numerous different
>conceptions of any number of stories. Was Celeborn a Sinda or a
>Telerin Elf of Aman? Was Earendil (or Earendel) forever separated
>from Elwing after their journey to Aman or did he return to her
>regularly? Were Orcs descended from Elves or Men? Was Aragorn's
>Elessar made in the First Age or the Second? There are also
>ambiguities without clear answers: surely we don't need to restart one
>of those endless "Who is Bombadil?" threads?
Why not? We have more evidence for Bombadil being a Maia than we have for
Dior being an Elf.
That a man should rule Elves seems inconceivable to you, does it? Elendil and
every king of Arnor who succeeded him ruled over the Elves of Arnor -- the
Wandering Companies who were still passing through their lands. Elrond was
lord of the Elves of Eriador but his authority could not reach into the realms
of the Dunedain.
By all indications, the kings of Gondor ruled Edhellond and the lands around
it. At least Tolkien never indicates that any special arrangements were made
for exclusion of Elvish folk from Dunadan realms.
> It's not at all clear to me that, at the time that Dior was
>portrayed as king of Doriath, he was intended to be mortal, since none
>of the consequences one would expect from that taking place (not least
>the wonder that the realm of Thingol, who had once held Men in
>contempt, now passed to one of that kindred) appear in the text.
Why should anyone wonder that the realm of Thingol, who had learned respect
and pity for men because of the deeds of Beren (he made Turin his foster-son,
something no other Elven king had ever done), should pass to his grandson?
Dior was Thingol's grandson mortal or not. Aragorn certainly claimed to have
inherited something from Thingol and Luthien -- he didn't feel that heritage
was denied him because of his mortality.
>Conversely, if you simply can't stand to see such
>misinformation posted on Usenet, well, it's probably best that we end
>the discussion, isn't it?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Consider part of my mood due to illness, and part of it due to the
intractibility of people presently posting to the Tolkien groups on certain
topics.
Graydon
In article <87zpplx...@lungold.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>,
Phil Fraering <p...@globalreach.net> wrote:
>
>gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
>> Well, this isn't really paradoxical; saying Elves have immortal souls is
>> something Tolkein's imagination would shy away from - there is a very
>> large theological can of worms, there - and saying outright that they will
>> cease to exist with Arda (which is the obvious and even compelling thing
>> to have happen to them) is unduly gloomy, even for the man who wrote Narn
>> i hin Hurin.
>
>Can you explain these statements in depth? Why would Tolkien have problems
>with the idea of Elves having immortal souls? They aren't clearly animals,
Tolkein was not an ignorant man; he knew perfectly well that humans are
animals (although he would reportedly froth at 'mere animals') and that
the interfertility of elves and humans had the biological implication that
Elves and Men are the same species, h. sap. quendi and h. sap.
whatever the latin if for 'strange gifts'.
He shows elves reincarnating; he has them have a distinct and different
Fall; he gives them a different relationship with Creation than Men have;
he explicitly says that no one but Eru knows what happens to them after
Doomsday and the end of the world. If they have human style immortal
souls, all of these things are theologically problematic; if they have a
different style of immortal soul, the last is extremely theologically
problematic.
If the Elves - as is repeatedly stated - are bound to the material
structure of Arda, and Arda will be in due time destroyed and replaced
with what it should have been after everyone has had the necessary
learning experiences, the Elves - who are part of that material structure
- being destroyed as well is the obvious conclusion.
This is an extremely gloomy conclusion, but it is somewhat supported by
the way in which the Choice of Luthien is presented; the idea of eternal
seperation is never undercut at all.
>and they don't seem to have *that* much semblance to "real" elves or
>elf-analogues in mythology that have been reported as being soulless.
It depends; Norse 'elves', Alfar, were, depending, a seperate people who
lived off in Vanaheim, the guys in the rock whom you could strike deals
with, or your departed ancestors who stuck around to keep an eye on the
ancestral lands and try to ensure that their descendants didnt' screw up.
It's very hard to get a neatly categorized cosmology out of what any group
of people actually believe.
>In Irish mythology "elves" are portrayed as the souls of the dead, aren't
>they? Or am I misinterpreting Yeats and Gregory, or possibly did they
>misinterpret someone else?
It is very hard to say who the Daoine Sidhe were, 'originally', since the
version we have now is a great froth of euhermized gods and apotheosizing
heros and who knows what in between. 'the souls of the dead' I would
regard as a severe oversimplification.
Dennis Monbourquette
Nancy Lebovitz chiseled onto the sacred tablets:
: Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
: >Carrot is the straight man in an awful lot of jokes, and Pratchet uses
: >that to say the _same_ things Tolkien says by taking Aragorn very
: >seriously indeed, only differently spun, somehow. I think it could be a
: >very good thesis; if a person of brilliance got ahold of it, they might
: >manage to explain post-modernism and the change in assumptions it
: >involved, and the change in assumptions getting over the awful nihilism
: >involved, too.
: >
: It's been a bit since I've read _Guards! Guards!_, but, imho, the
: most striking difference is that Aragorn shows responsibility by
: becoming King, and Carrot shows it (or at least gets the strong
: respect of his Author) by not even being interested in being
: King.
Ja, but he serves the people he loves very well by being the best
guard he can be (which, given his genes, is quite a good guard indeed).
Also, it might be that kingship on the Discworld is more of a sinecure
than an effective way to improve things. Carrot certainly acts as though
this is the case, by making the City Watch an effective force again when
he becomes Captain Carrot.
: It might be fun to analyse them for differences/similarities in
: leadership style.
Intimidation versus likeability?
: Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
-Feste
--
-=%# "People eat their gods" -Rebecca Ore #%=-
fe...@mindlink.net a09...@giant.mindlink.net fes...@vcn.bc.ca
-=%# http://mindlink.net/feste/homepage.html #%=-
Patrick G. Matthews
Michael Martinez wrote:
> ms...@midway.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) wrote:
[cut]
> >In the case of Aragorn and Arwen, there's no indication
> >that Eldarion had a choice-- but then there's no indication
> >that Elros' children had a choice either. (Of course,
> >maybe they did, and it was simply not reported.)
> This is incorrect. It is clearly stated in "Akallabeth"
> that choice was withheld from Elros' descendants. He made
> the choice for his family. It's not explained (or justified)
> why Elrond's children should also have a choice.
The only justification I can think of for why Elrond's
children should have been given a choice:
One could say that the choice of Earendil, Elwing, Elrond,
and Elros was whether to accept or reject the Gift of Man--
i.e., death. Elros chose the accept the Gift, which once
given was apparently irrevocable in his descendants. Elrond,
OTOH, chose to reject the Gift--but the Gift was still
offered to his children.
Pat
--
Patrick G. Matthews pat...@mraintl.com
Analyst voice 215.772.9748
MRA International fax 215.772.9716
Opinions expressed are my own, not necessarily those of my employer
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <5v97dm$q0o$1...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Dennis Monbourquette <a09...@giant.mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>
>Nancy Lebovitz chiseled onto the sacred tablets:
>
>: It's been a bit since I've read _Guards! Guards!_, but, imho, the
>: most striking difference is that Aragorn shows responsibility by
>: becoming King, and Carrot shows it (or at least gets the strong
>: respect of his Author) by not even being interested in being
>: King.
>
> Ja, but he serves the people he loves very well by being the best
>guard he can be (which, given his genes, is quite a good guard indeed).
>
> Also, it might be that kingship on the Discworld is more of a sinecure
>than an effective way to improve things. Carrot certainly acts as though
>this is the case, by making the City Watch an effective force again when
>he becomes Captain Carrot.
>
This all seems plausible, but it's part of the difference between
DW and ME that in DW, the official hierarchy is just about useless
and in ME, it's essential. In fact, it's almost surprising in DW
that the City Guard can be good for anything.
>: It might be fun to analyse them for differences/similarities in
>: leadership style.
>
> Intimidation versus likeability?
>
I'd have to reread--my remembrance is that Aragorn isn't exactly
using intimidation. He doesn't say "Put me on the throne of Gondor
or die by my sword and my army". On the other hand, his status
is a part of how he gets followers, though he also has to offer
proof.
Carrot's power is more complex than likeability--people don't just
like him, they like him so much that they want to live up to his
good opinion of them.
Lalaith
mich...@swcp.com (Michael Martinez) wrote:
>>He was heir to Elwe.
>
>Which means nothing. Tolkien nowhere states or implies that in order to
>inherit authority or a realm one must be of the same kindred as a predecessor.
What was the Kin-strife about then?
>You're inferring that mortal parents should somehow give birth to an immortal
>child whereas a mortal parent and immortal parent (according to Tolkien)
>produce only mortal children. This seems an extraordinary concept.
Tuor: mortal. Idril: immortal. Earendil: immortal, too.
>That a man should rule Elves seems inconceivable to you, does it? Elendil and
>every king of Arnor who succeeded him ruled over the Elves of Arnor -- the
>Wandering Companies who were still passing through their lands.
I do not think so. Hey, they did not even rule those hobbits!
>By all indications, the kings of Gondor ruled Edhellond and the lands around
>it. At least Tolkien never indicates that any special arrangements were made
>for exclusion of Elvish folk from Dunadan realms.
Edhellond was probably deserted then.
- Lalaith
----------------------------------------------
Belief is the disease, knowledge the medicine.
Graydon
In article <5v97dm$q0o$1...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Dennis Monbourquette <a09...@giant.mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>Nancy Lebovitz chiseled onto the sacred tablets:
>: >Carrot is the straight man in an awful lot of jokes, and Pratchet uses
>: >that to say the _same_ things Tolkien says by taking Aragorn very
>: >seriously indeed, only differently spun, somehow. I think it could be a
>: >very good thesis; if a person of brilliance got ahold of it, they might
>: >manage to explain post-modernism and the change in assumptions it
>: >involved, and the change in assumptions getting over the awful nihilism
>: >involved, too.
>: >
>: most striking difference is that Aragorn shows responsibility by
>: becoming King, and Carrot shows it (or at least gets the strong
>: respect of his Author) by not even being interested in being
>: King.
>
> Ja, but he serves the people he loves very well by being the best
>guard he can be (which, given his genes, is quite a good guard indeed).
Also note that Aragorn is only interested in being king if he can do it
completely; he's more interested in the substance than the title.
> Also, it might be that kingship on the Discworld is more of a sinecure
>than an effective way to improve things. Carrot certainly acts as though
>this is the case, by making the City Watch an effective force again when
>he becomes Captain Carrot.
Yup. But look at what he says to Ventinari at the end of ... oh, drat,
Guard one _before_ :Feet of Clay:, can't remember if that's :Guards!
Guards!: or not. Or how he acts in the crisis.
>: It might be fun to analyse them for differences/similarities in
>: leadership style.
>
> Intimidation versus likeability?
Except Carrot intimidates people and people like Aragorn, too.
Michael S. Schiffer
In article <N.091197....@ppp70.swcp.com>,
Michael Martinez <mich...@swcp.com> wrote:
>On 9/11/97 11:35AM, in message <1997091117...@harper.uchicago.edu>,
>"Michael S. Schiffer" <ms...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> In article <5v96l2$3pg...@thepope.basis.com> you write:
>>> Consider part of my mood due to illness, and part of it due to the
>>> intractibility of people presently posting to the Tolkien groups
>>> on certain topics.
>> FWIW, I'm posting to rec.arts.sf.written, leaving the other
>> groups as crossposts due to the obvious relevance and the fact that no
>> one has indicated that the subjects in question are off-topic in the
>> Tolkien groups. If this is already well-trod ground in those groups,
>> I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware of that. I don't think the issue is as
>> clear cut as you do, but I think we've already both said about all
>> there is to be said (which is why I'm e-mailing instead of posting).
>I'm sorry. If you're not reading the Tolkien groups then you have no idea of
>what I was referring to concerning the intractibility of others. It had
>nothing to do with the question of Dior. And as poorly as I feel this week,
>there is still no excuse for being rude.
I know what it's like to have a bad day, and Usenet can
certainly exacerbate a bad mood. (Believe me, I know. :-) ) Let's
start over.
>I recall one past discussion concerning Dior's nature that went to any depth,
>so it's hardly a frequent issue. I suppose others may even be reading this
>thread with some interest to see if I can clarify the issue. I'll do my best
>under the circumstances and let what follows stand as my argument.
>> I'd still like the cite (or at least a general location) for where
>> Tolkien said that Elf-Man offspring default to mortality, if you have
>> it available.
[Extensive quotes which back that interpretation snipped for space.]
I have to admit, that was pretty persuasive. While I think my
interpretation was reasonable given only LotR, the Silmarillion, and
what I remember of _Unfinished Tales_ (which I'm currently in the
middle of rereading), the text from the HoME series tips the balance
quite a ways in the other direction. I think I'll break with hallowed
Usenet tradition and concede the argument.
I do think that the published Silmarillion should have
included some mention of this, either in its discussion of Dior or of
the half-elven in general, especially since a mortal king of an elven
realm (as opposed to a mortal leader of a band of refugees) was
something very new and different, and not, I think, repeated. (If
Gondolin had survived Turgon's death, it might have been.) In the
First Age, while individual Men might serve with Elves, Men and Elves
had their own separate leaders until virtually every polity but
Morgoth's was destroyed. In the Second, the Elven kingdoms and
Numenorean colonies were separate, though often allied. In the Third
Age, it seems to me that while Elven realms might coincide with parts
of the kingdoms of Men, they never seemed to be subject to them. (Did
Rivendell have any equivalent to the formula under which the Shire was
under the King, though essentially autonomous? Did Lorien?)
> Until such time as someone can produce a citation from Tolkien
> stating otherwise (and showing said citation is supported by the
> texts), I will continue to point out that Dior was mortal. He just
> happened to re-establish the kingdom of Doriath. I could further
> cloud the issue, however, by pointing out that Earendil was lord of
> Arvernien, the shoreland realm of southern Beleriand established by
> the Exiles of Gondolin and Doriath where many Edain also settled.
But without the statement that those with any mortal ancestors
(excepting Earendil's line after his voyage) were necessarily mortal,
then that would just be another ambiguous case. (Given that that was
the default case, and that Illuvatar and the Valar regard death as a
gift, I wonder why Earendil's family was given the "reward" of being
allowed to reject it.) It's true that I seem to recall that Earendil
is portrayed as a Man rather than an Elf (or half-elf) in LotR, though
I can't point to the text to explain why I got that impression.
In any case, I'd now agree that the preponderance of the
evidence is that Dior was mortal. Next (barely related) question: you
say that the Akallabeth indicates that Earendil didn't participate in
the War of Wrath. Where is this? (I rather like the image of
Earendil's ship in the sky fighting winged dragons, so I'd be sorry if
that was dropped.)
Stephen Linhart
In article <34181C...@mraintl.com>, pat...@mraintl.com wrote:
> One could say that the choice of Earendil, Elwing, Elrond,
> and Elros was whether to accept or reject the Gift of Man--
> i.e., death. Elros chose the accept the Gift, which once
> given was apparently irrevocable in his descendants. Elrond,
> OTOH, chose to reject the Gift--but the Gift was still
> offered to his children.
Yeah. Luthien choose the Gift because the Valar were not able to take it
away from Beren. They could give it to her, but they couldn't take it
away from him.
- Stephen
Michael Martinez
On 9/11/97 11:35AM, in message <1997091117...@harper.uchicago.edu>,
"Michael S. Schiffer" <ms...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> In article <5v96l2$3pg...@thepope.basis.com> you write:
>
> >Consider part of my mood due to illness, and part of it due to the
> >intractibility of people presently posting to the Tolkien groups on certain
> >topics.
>
> FWIW, I'm posting to rec.arts.sf.written, leaving the other
> groups as crossposts due to the obvious relevance and the fact that no
> one has indicated that the subjects in question are off-topic in the
> Tolkien groups. If this is already well-trod ground in those groups,
> I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware of that. I don't think the issue is as
> clear cut as you do, but I think we've already both said about all
> there is to be said (which is why I'm e-mailing instead of posting).
I'm sorry. If you're not reading the Tolkien groups then you have no idea of
what I was referring to concerning the intractibility of others. It had
nothing to do with the question of Dior. And as poorly as I feel this week,
there is still no excuse for being rude.
I recall one past discussion concerning Dior's nature that went to any depth,
so it's hardly a frequent issue. I suppose others may even be reading this
thread with some interest to see if I can clarify the issue. I'll do my best
under the circumstances and let what follows stand as my argument.
> I'd still like the cite (or at least a general location) for where
> Tolkien said that Elf-Man offspring default to mortality, if you have
> it available.
The only citation I can find offhand is in THE LOST ROAD AND OTHER WRITINGS,
Houghton Mifflin edition, pages 326-70:
"$9 Then Manwe gave judgement and he said: 'To Earendel I remit the
ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the
Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon
Elwing who entered into peril for love of Earendel: save only in
this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the
Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men,
in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom
be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is
given to me. This is my decree: to Earendel and to Elwing and
to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under
which kindred they shall be judged.'"
This is, so far as I know, the last time J.R.R. Tolkien wrote anything in
detail concerning the latest matter in "Quenta Silmarillion", even though this
text dates to a time prior to the writing of THE LORD OF THE RINGS.
I can also point you to the information concerning the princes of Dol Amroth
in UNFINISHED TALES (pp. 247-8 in the Houghton Mifflin version) and in THE
PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH (pp. 220-4). The matter of choice for the half-Elven
children of Imrazor and Mithrellas is never considered.
In "Akallabeth" Tolkien wrote:
"Now Elros and Elrond his brother were descended from the Three Houses
of the Edain, but in part also both from the Eldar and the Maiar; for
Idril of Gondolin and Luthien daughter of Melian were their foremothers.
The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to
Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave
to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil
should be given choice of their own destiny...." (THE SILMARILLION,
Houghton Mifflin Ed., p. 261).
I have refrained from citing the story of Earendil as published in THE
SILMARILLION because it appears in a section of the book written by or heavily
edited by Christopher Tolkien (in fact, the tradition of Earendil's appearance
in the Last Battle at Thangorodrim is contradicted by "Akallabeth" and by THE
PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, but that's another issue entirely). THE SILMARILLION
is not wholly regarded as "canonical" by all of us in the Tolkien groups,
though you won't find much agreement on the degree of canonicality which lies
in the latter portions of the book.
As for why THE SILMARILLION differs from what is apparently the last word on
Earendil's fate by J.R.R. Tolkien, I don't know. Christopher Tolkien had to
blend a number of sources together to produce the published book, and he has
admitted in several places that he regrets some of the choices he made (but
this matter is not one he has referred to explicitly). His explanation of how
the last chapters of THE SILMARILLION were constructed is presented in THE WAR
OF THE JEWELS, pp. 243-7.
In Letter 153 Tolkien touches on the issues of mortality and the choices of
the Half-elven. He singles out the descendants of Earendil. This letter is
dated to September, 1954. Christopher Tolkien cannot provide an explicit
dating for "The Line of Dol Amroth", which is referred to in UNFINISHED TALES
and published (finally) in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, but he argue that the
material entitled "The Heirs of Elendil" dates originally from the time of the
writing of THE LORD OF THE RINGS and he associates the Dol Amroth genealogy
with version B of the primary text (only version D is dated well past the
publication of LOTR). Thus, Tolkien would have been aware while preparing and
editing the Appendices of his tradition for Dol Amroth. By inference,
September 1954 is a bit soon for even Tolkien's somewhat unreliable memory to
fail him.
It is significant that Tolkien also revised the background of Imrahil during
the writing of THE LORD OF THE RINGS (various passages in THE WAR OF THE RING
and SAURON DEFEATED attest to this) and introduced the Elvish strain in
Imrahil's ancestry as a secondary theme (i.e., Imrahil was not originally
conceived as anything other than a Numenorean). Hence, the addition of the
Elvish ancestor without raising the matter of choice for the children
indicates that only Earendil's descendants (children, and children of Elrond)
were to be given this special consideration (as stated in numerous variations
on the theme).
In Appendix A Tolkien wrote:
"There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and
Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn. By the last the long-
sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line
was restored."
Who were the Half-elven that they should have branches? There is no text
suggesting any kinship between Idril and Luthien. Idril was the daughter of
Turgon and Elenwe, Elenwe being a Vanyarin elf. Turgon was the son of
Fingolfin and Anaire (a Noldo). Fingolfin was the son of Finwe and Indis (a
Vanya). Anaire's parentage is not given, so one could guess that she might be
related to the Teleri in some fashion. Yet this would still be a distant
kinship.
Hence, the "long-sundered branches" must come from a single family: Earendil
and Elwing. The Appendix supports this conclusion where it says:
"The sons of Earendil were Elros and Elrond, the *Peredhil* of Half-
Elven. In them alone the line of the chieftains of the Edain of the
First Age was preserved, and after the fall of Gil-Galad the lineage
of the High Elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by
their descendants."
The statement attributed to Dior ("I am the first of the Peredhil") comes from
an essay Christopher Tolkien attributes to the last years of his father's life
(1968 or later). The essay, as I mentioned previously, fails on a number of
points, some of which Tolkien himself realized. He ultimately abandoned the
work, which was part of a body of essays which really have no impact on any of
the published stories anyway.
Nonetheless, Elwing's marriage to Earendil is viewed in this essay as a
joining of the two Half-elven lines -- they are regarded separately from the
Eldar and the Edain. It cannot be argued from this text (which goes into
great detail about the mixing of languages for various names) that Dior was
either particularly Elven or Human in nature. His nature was ambiguous at
most or Human at least.
Choice was explicitly appointed to Earendil and Elwing, Elrond and Elros, and
to Elrond's children. Dior, Elured, and Elurin are not named in any of the
extensive writings concerning Elvish death, immortality, and reincarnation
which were published in MORGOTH'S RING (which material all dates from after
the publication of THE LORD OF THE RINGS). The absence of any consideration
of Dior's fate (particularly in the section speaking of Luthien's having
chosen to become sundered from Elvenkind) again reinforces the exclusion of
Dior from Elvenkind. Choice was never appointed to him.
In THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, Volume Two, however, there is an entry for Earendil
in the name list for "The Fall of Gondolin" (Houghton Mifflin edition, p. 215):
"Earendel 'was the son of Tuor and Idril and 'tis said the only
being that is half of the kindred of the Eldalie and half of Men,
He was the greatest and first of all mariners among Men, and saw
regions that Men have not yet found nor gazed upon for all the
multitude of their boats...."
Christopher Tolkien points out that at this stage Dior was the son of Beren,
an Elf, and not numbered among the Half-elven. And yet he refers to Tamar
Lamefoot, a half-Elf mentioned in "The Tale of Turambar". On page 130 we read
of Tamar:
"The lame man, here called Tamar, and his vain love of Niniel already
appear; unlike his counterpart Brandir he was not the chief of the
Woodmen, but he was the son of the chief. He was also Half-elven!...."
The idea that Half-elves were by default Mortal was thus very old in Tolkien's
writings, and he only refined it to give the matter of Earendil and Elwing
some special consideration. If Manwe's decree as recorded in THE LOST ROAD
AND OTHER WRITINGS truly represents the final thought of J.R.R.T. on the
subject, there should be no doubt concerning Dior's mortality. If it is not
his last thought on the subject, I don't recall ever reading anything
contradictory to this decree and feel strongly that it was either lost or has
yet to be published.
Until such time as someone can produce a citation from Tolkien stating
otherwise (and showing said citation is supported by the texts), I will
continue to point out that Dior was mortal. He just happened to re-establish
the kingdom of Doriath. I could further cloud the issue, however, by pointing
out that Earendil was lord of Arvernien, the shoreland realm of southern
Beleriand established by the Exiles of Gondolin and Doriath where many Edain
also settled.
> In any case, I hope your illness passes quickly. (As for
> intractability, I _know_ you've been on Usenet long enough to be used
> to that. :-) )
Thanks.
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------