What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
Sound of Trumpet
What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
Rich Naylor
Before we can consider what questions Jesus might ask a Darwinian, we
should take a moment to find out a little about what a Darwinian
actually believes and just who Darwin was.
So, who was Darwin?
Charles Darwin was born in 1809. After quitting medicine at Edinburgh,
Darwin was sent to Christ College Cambridge by his father to study for
the clergy. He developed a passion for natural history at college, and
spent most of his time collecting beetles. After completing his
studies, when he was 22 years old he was asked if he would like to
fill a vacancy as the naturalist on the H.M.S. Beagle during its 5
year voyage of South America. During his voyage Darwin collected
thousands of specimens. He noticed differences between finches
collected on different islands in the Galapagos. Darwin wondered how
these differences came about, and began developing his theory of
transmutation, whereby one species could evolve in response to it's
environment, and form a whole new species.
Darwin conducted his research in private, because he new that none of
the other naturalists would believe him. By 1842 he had written a
comprehensive draft of a book describing how evolution could occur by
processes such as natural selection. Darwin believed that animals
evolved according to strict laws of nature set down by God during
Creation. He thought that natural variation would produce some
individuals that were better suited to a particular environment than
others. Since only the best suited individuals would survive and
reproduce, nature would effectively be selecting for the best suited
species in each environment. Consequently any environmental changes
would result in the evolution of different species.
Now Darwin faced a dilemma. Should he publish his work? Darwin was
afraid of being heavily criticised by his colleagues, scorned by the
church and labelled as an atheist. He also new that the "trouble
making atheists would use it for their own evil agendas". Consequently
Darwin held off publishing his book for almost 20 years, and only
finally published it when a young naturalist named Alfred Russell
Wallace came up with a very similar theory.
A Darwinian is an advocate of Darwinism, which is a belief in the
theories of Evolution and Natural Selection proposed by Charles
Darwin. Most Darwinians, however, dislike the term Darwinism because
it implies that evolutionary theory is a doctrine or belief rather
than fact.
So, what would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
Here are three key questions Jesus might ask:
1) Is there really no more to life than reproduction?
Evolutionary theory predicts that we shouldn't be wasting our time
with anything that doesn't directly result in producing more
offspring, in order to pass on as many of our genes to the next
generation as possible.
2) Is there no higher purpose to our lives?
If we are just machines for passing on DNA (as suggested by Richard
Dawkins) why do we care about each other, enjoy playing games or
watching the sun set? And why do we long to be remembered after we
die?
3) Does Darwinism actually disprove the presence of a God?
Many atheists say that it does (just as Darwin feared), but science
can only shed light on phenomena one can observe and measure, so is
faith really within the scope of scientific understanding?
Erwin Moller
I hoped Jesus would ask: "Will people lie in my name or in the name of
my Father a few thousand years after I die? Or will they honour my
lessons and be honest?"
That would be a good question to you and your kind.
But hey, who am I to put words in Jesus mouth?
That would be very presumptuous.
Erwin Moller
--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare
JayPee Vee
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
What's a "darwinian"?
Are you a "stupidian"?
Alex W.
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
"Which way to the pub, mate?"
Christopher A. Lee
<jaype...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 1 Jun., 12:15, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>>
>> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>
>What's a "darwinian"?
Somebody from a North Australian city.
Yes.
T Guy
wrote:
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>
> Rich Naylor
>
> Before we can consider what questions Jesus might ask a Darwinian, we
> should take a moment to find out a little about what a Darwinian
> actually believes and just who Darwin was.
(T Guy):
A pleasant change from a Christer.
(SoT):
> A Darwinian is an advocate of Darwinism, which is a belief in the
> theories of Evolution and Natural Selection proposed by Charles
> Darwin. Most Darwinians, however, dislike the term Darwinism because
> it implies that evolutionary theory is a doctrine or belief rather
> than fact.
(T Guy):
Almost correct.
Would you refer to people who believe in gravity as 'Newtonians'?
Would you refer to people who believe in electricity as
'Faradayists'?
(SoT):
>
> So, what would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>
> Here are three key questions Jesus might ask:
> 3) Does Darwinism actually disprove the presence of a God?
>
> Many atheists say that it does (just as Darwin feared), but science
> can only shed light on phenomena one can observe and measure, so is
> faith really within the scope of scientific understanding?
(T Guy):
And vice-versa.
T Guy
ilbe...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think Jesus would open up the Bible and take folks to Romans 1:20
where it says that many willfully hold to desperate philosophies
because its too convicting for them to admit a personal Universe
always requires a personal Creator behind it. Then hed say that
Darwin was one such person. And finally he would say that YOU dont
have to be and that denying the Creator who is YOUR creator, is an
eternal crime . He would then invite you to walk with him or have a
meal with him to tell you how a Man must be made right with God by
dealing with ones personal sins in life and that he is the Way , the
Truth, and the Life ... if you want it.
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
He would ask, "What kind of monkey are you?" And the Darwinian would
reply, "http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/skatesnow67/3_013.jpg"
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
He would ask, "What kind of monkey are you?" And the Darwinian would
reply, "http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/skatesnow67/3_013.jpg"
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
He would ask, "What kind of monkey are you?" And the Darwinian would
reply, "http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/skatesnow67/3_013.jpg"
raven1
>I think Jesus would open up the Bible and take folks to Romans 1:20
>where it says that many willfully hold to desperate philosophies
>because its too convicting for them to admit a personal Universe
>always requires a personal Creator behind it. Then hed say that
>Darwin was one such person. And finally he would say that YOU dont
>have to be and that denying the Creator who is YOUR creator, is an
>eternal crime . He would then invite you to walk with him or have a
>meal with him to tell you how a Man must be made right with God by
>dealing with ones personal sins in life and that he is the Way , the
>Truth, and the Life ... if you want it.
Dear Dimwit Dave,
You do realize that the fact of biological evolution has nothing to do
with whether or not a "personal Creator" exists, right?
As has been painstakingly explained to you on many, many occasions,
the ToE says nothing about how life began, it describes how it
diversified since then. Educated people, including millions of
educated Christians and other theists, accept it because it is
observed fact, not because they wish to deny a Creator.
Of course, since you seem to take a perverse pride in being
uneducable, that will go right over your head.
Erwin Moller
What Bible says that?
Since I don't have a Bible at hand, I looked it up:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201:20&version=NIV
It says Romans 1:20 says this:
---------------------------------------------
Romans 1:20 (New International Version)
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities�his
eternal power and divine nature�have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave
thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts
were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look
like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
[I gave up here]
---------------------------------------------
How exactly does that translate to your random rambling above?
What "personal creator" is mentioned here?
(And when we are at that: What is the difference between a 'personal'
creator and a 'regular' creator? You never seem to find the time to
answer that.)
Where is 'personal universe' to be found in Romans 1:20?
And where is "many willfully hold to desperate philosophies" mentioned?
Seriously IllBeBauck, should you learn about biblequotes from me? An
atheist that never in his lifetime finished reading the Bible
cover-to-cover, because it is written too poorly.
You don't sink that far I hope.
So please, give me the index AND the book in the bible (and the version
of the bible), so I can check if you are a liar and make up biblequotes
to fit your own (personal) needs.
Terry Cross
wrote:
This is cited by some people, but Darwin's Christianity was only a
patina, a veneer adopted to hide his true nature. Darwin was a member
of the Royal Society, an infamously Atheist institution that engaged
in a number of ugly practices to promote its agenda.
TCross
Erwin Moller
The Royal Society was an infamous atheist institution?
Infamous?
You don't know what you are talking about.
In those days the Royal Society was a well respected important
institution. Nowadays it is more marginal of course.
And by the way: Why do you misspell atheist? It should be atheist, not
Atheist.
At the beginning of a sentence you can use the capital A.
Understand?
Kilmir
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
I don't know what Jesus would ask, but I would cut him off and say:
"Hey Jesus! Our knowledge of biology has increased due to evolutionary
theory to the point where we understand and can treat your temporal
lobe epilepsy!"
Or was that Saul?
harry k
>
> - Show quoted text -
Been pointed out before. Who, or what, Darwin was had, and still has,
absolutely _NO_ effect on the accuracy of his theory. He could have
been a serial rapist and the ToE would still be valid. Of course
idiot creationists just ignore that and continue lying about him
thinking it somehow attacks his theory.
Harry K
Jimbo
wrote:
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>
> Rich Naylor
>
> Before we can consider what questions Jesus might ask a Darwinian, we
> should take a moment to find out a little about what a Darwinian
I think your first burden is to prove that this Jesus fellow exists.
If he doesn't, then the question is irrelevant.
Stephen Allcroft
This fellow also calls himself sound of Trumpet, but,in German it's
actually a trombone.
Apostate
wrote:
What's German for "kazoo"?
--
Apostate alt.atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Deputy Director in Charge of Being Paid,
Department of Redundancy Department
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure
and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell
"Mr. Worf, set phasers on "Fuck You" and fire at will."
. -- Doc Smartass
Burkhard
The Royal society, the world's oldest learned society, founded in 1660
by Royal Charter by Charles II, during whose reign the Clarendon Code,
designed to shore up the position of the re-established Church of
England was enacted, though he was mainly interested in reconciling
Protestants and Catholics and converted in his deathbed to RC? Whose
founding members were John Wilkins, Bishop of Chester, and Robert
Boyle, author of "An Essay upon the Style of the Holy Scriptures", "
Excellence of Theology compared with Natural Philosophy" and " Some
Considerations about the Reconcileableness of Reason and Religion,
with a Discourse about the Possibility of the Resurrection"?
The same Royal society that was led during Darwin's time by such known
atheists as George Stokes, vice president of the British and Foreign
Bible Society and president of the religiously conservative Victoria
Institute (in addition to his many contributions to science), or the
deeply devout Lord Kelvin famous for his daily church attendances?
The only condition for membership, then and now, was scientific
excellence, an dit has no agenda apart from promoting science.
Olrik
> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 07:39:48 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Allcroft<stephen...@lycos.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1 June, 15:36, Jimbo<ckdbig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jun 1, 5:15 am, Sound of Trumpet<soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>>>
>>>> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>>>
>>>> Rich Naylor
>>>
>>>> Before we can consider what questions Jesus might ask a Darwinian, we
>>>> should take a moment to find out a little about what a Darwinian
>>>
>>> I think your first burden is to prove that this Jesus fellow exists.
>>> If he doesn't, then the question is irrelevant.
>>
>> This fellow also calls himself sound of Trumpet, but,in German it's
>> actually a trombone.
>
> What's German for "kazoo"?
Kazoondheit?
Ben Kaufman
wrote:
Next epic debate will be between the Faradyists and the Voltarians. :-)
Ben
Apostate
Nah, wrong part of speech.
You've given us "the quality or property of being a kazoo".
Good for a hearty chuckle anyway, though.
And danke.
Apostate
We'll want to see lots of Ampereical evidence.
>
>
>Ben
Olrik
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 11:35:51 -0400, Olrik<olri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Le 2010-06-01 10:53, Apostate a �crit :
>>> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 07:39:48 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Allcroft<stephen...@lycos.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1 June, 15:36, Jimbo<ckdbig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 1, 5:15 am, Sound of Trumpet<soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>>>>>
>>>>>> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rich Naylor
>>>>>
>>>>>> Before we can consider what questions Jesus might ask a Darwinian, we
>>>>>> should take a moment to find out a little about what a Darwinian
>>>>>
>>>>> I think your first burden is to prove that this Jesus fellow exists.
>>>>> If he doesn't, then the question is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>> This fellow also calls himself sound of Trumpet, but,in German it's
>>>> actually a trombone.
>>>
>>> What's German for "kazoo"?
>>
>> Kazoondheit?
>
> Nah, wrong part of speech.
> You've given us "the quality or property of being a kazoo".
LOL!!
> Good for a hearty chuckle anyway, though.
:-D
> And danke.
>
Olrik
> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 07:39:48 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Allcroft<stephen...@lycos.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1 June, 15:36, Jimbo<ckdbig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jun 1, 5:15 am, Sound of Trumpet<soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>>>
>>>> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>>>
>>>> Rich Naylor
>>>
>>>> Before we can consider what questions Jesus might ask a Darwinian, we
>>>> should take a moment to find out a little about what a Darwinian
>>>
>>> I think your first burden is to prove that this Jesus fellow exists.
>>> If he doesn't, then the question is irrelevant.
>>
>> This fellow also calls himself sound of Trumpet, but,in German it's
>> actually a trombone.
>
> What's German for "kazoo"?
>
Apostate
>Le 2010-06-01 10:53, Apostate a �crit :
Gott sei dank, I didn't have to read beyond the first sentence for the point.
I'd have been years.
The picture helped, too.
The Mad Alchemist
wrote:
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
He'd ask, "What are you doing here? God was going to end all life on
earth within the lifetime of my disciples!"
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
you?"
And the Darwinian would reply, "Who gives a fuck!"
Mark Evans
wrote:
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>
>
> Before we can consider what questions Jesus might ask a Darwinian, we
> should take a moment to find out a little about what a Darwinian
>
>
> Charles Darwin was born in 1809. After quitting medicine at Edinburgh,
> Darwin was sent to Christ College Cambridge by his father to study for
> the clergy. He developed a passion for natural history at college, and
> spent most of his time collecting beetles. After completing his
> studies, when he was 22 years old he was asked if he would like to
> fill a vacancy as the naturalist on the H.M.S. Beagle during its 5
> year voyage of South America. During his voyage Darwin collected
> thousands of specimens. He noticed differences between finches
> collected on different islands in the Galapagos. Darwin wondered how
> these differences came about, and began developing his theory of
> transmutation, whereby one species could evolve in response to it's
> environment, and form a whole new species.
>
> Darwin conducted his research in private, because he new that none of
> the other naturalists would believe him. By 1842 he had written a
> comprehensive draft of a book describing how evolution could occur by
> processes such as natural selection. Darwin believed that animals
> evolved according to strict laws of nature set down by God during
> individuals that were better suited to a particular environment than
> others. Since only the best suited individuals would survive and
> reproduce, nature would effectively be selecting for the best suited
> species in each environment. Consequently any environmental changes
> would result in the evolution of different species.
>
> Now Darwin faced a dilemma. Should he publish his work? Darwin was
> afraid of being heavily criticised by his colleagues, scorned by the
> church and labelled as an atheist. He also new that the "trouble
> making atheists would use it for their own evil agendas". Consequently
> Darwin held off publishing his book for almost 20 years, and only
> finally published it when a young naturalist named Alfred Russell
> Wallace came up with a very similar theory.
>
> theories of Evolution and Natural Selection proposed by Charles
> Darwin. Most Darwinians, however, dislike the term Darwinism because
> it implies that evolutionary theory is a doctrine or belief rather
> than fact.
>
>
> Here are three key questions Jesus might ask:
>
> Evolutionary theory predicts that we shouldn't be wasting our time
> with anything that doesn't directly result in producing more
> offspring, in order to pass on as many of our genes to the next
> generation as possible.
> 2) Is there no higher purpose to our lives?
>
> If we are just machines for passing on DNA (as suggested by Richard
> Dawkins) why do we care about each other, enjoy playing games or
> watching the sun set? And why do we long to be remembered after we
> die?
>
> Many atheists say that it does (just as Darwin feared), but science
> can only shed light on phenomena one can observe and measure, so is
> faith really within the scope of scientific understanding?
Actually Jesus would most likely want to know where all the goyim came
from that think they are his followers.
Some facts about Jesus:
Birth date, both year and time of year, are unknown.
His mother did not marry his father.
He did not follow his step-father into the family business.
In a time and place where marriage was the norm he chose to spend a
lot of his time with a band of male "disciples".
No contempary accounts of his life are known to exist. All accounts
were written down years, decades even, after the fact.
No know account of him by the Romans, compulsive record keepers, is
known to exist.
He was supposed to have spent part of his youth in Egypt where simple
conjuring tricks, like pouring wine from a pitcher containing water,
were well known.
He is a lot like Elvis. Interesting fellow but with a frightening fan
club.
Mark Evans
Alex W.
Funny how Christians tend to conveniently forget that Jesus was
very much a Jew....
> Some facts about Jesus:
>
> Birth date, both year and time of year, are unknown.
>
> His mother did not marry his father.
That's pretty irrelevant, actually, since it's the descent
through the mother thant counts.
>
> He did not follow his step-father into the family business.
>
> In a time and place where marriage was the norm he chose to spend a
> lot of his time with a band of male "disciples".
Only according to the official gospels. There are apocrypha
which include women.
Nor is his chosen lifestyle all that unusual; at the time,
peripatetic preachers were reasonably common.
> No contempary accounts of his life are known to exist. All accounts
> were written down years, decades even, after the fact.
>
> No know account of him by the Romans, compulsive record keepers, is
> known to exist.
>
> He was supposed to have spent part of his youth in Egypt where simple
> conjuring tricks, like pouring wine from a pitcher containing water,
> were well known.
>
> He is a lot like Elvis. Interesting fellow but with a frightening fan
> club.
Plus, he died an unusual death and there are persistent rumours
of his continued existence....
Terry Cross
What is the source of your faith in this datum?
Terry Cross
Regardless of Jesus' lineage (an issue that would interest only
racists), Jesus kicked Judaism to the curb. He attacked every pillar
of Judaism and tore out every foundation stone. Kosher, stoning,
temple sacrifice, Mosaic divorce, Sabbath, hereditary priesthood, etc.
etc. -- all gone.
Jesus was not at all a Jew.
TCross
panam...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
"..hey, buddy. Can you help a fellow American down on his luck?"
http://thisdistractedglobe.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Treasure4.jpg
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!
Will in New Haven
He claimed to be, or his followers claimed for him, that he was
fulfilling or completing Judaism. Most of his early followers were
Jews. Most Jews today don't pay much attention to the things you
claimed he kicked to the curb.
If it _bothers_ you that he was a Jew, it must be tough to know deep
down that he was. At least as much as I am and I certainly am, even
though the religion doesn't mean anything to me.
--
Will in New Haven
Mark Evans
>
> - Show quoted text -
According to scriptures and tradition she married Joe (the carpenter,
not the plumber) but he was not the father of her first child. She
may have had later children by him but that is conjecture and actually
gets some cultists quite angry if mentioned. And since there is very
little hard evidence about the whole affair "faith" is not a word I
would use to describe how I feel about it. I have little faith in
just so stories, be they by Kipling or older writers.
Mark Evans
Terry Cross
They were Jews before they followed Jesus, but they were not Jews
while they were following him. Even today, Judaism is so bitter about
Christianity, no Christian is permitted to claim s/he is a Jew or
claim the Right of Return to Israel. Is this news to you?
> Most Jews today don't pay much attention to the things you
> claimed he kicked to the curb.
Most Jews today don't pay much attention to Kosher? To Sabbath? Are
you sure about that? Those are the pillars of Judaism.
> If it _bothers_ you that he was a Jew,
It does not bother me that "Jesus was a Jew", but it is simply not a
fact.
> it must be tough to know deep
> down that he was.
Jews claim to Christians that Jesus was just a good rabbi. But Jews
tell each other that Jesus was a monstrous evil fellow who performed
magic with his penis and blasphemed against everything holy,
eventually ending up in hell. http://jewishchristianlit.com/Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html
> At least as much as I am and I certainly am, even
> though the religion doesn't mean anything to me.
The Toldot Jeshu history is echoed in the Talmud, making it a
statement of faith for Jews.
TCross
James A. Donald
> You do realize that the fact of biological evolution has nothing to do
> with whether or not a "personal Creator" exists, right?
The fact of natural selection has everything to do with a personal
creator. The message of natural selection is that you are on your
own, and have to claw your way to the top.
David Johnston
Of what?
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
He pulls this stuff out of his arse.
Terry Cross
... red in fang and claw. The corollary to Evolution is recognized by
everyone by Evolutionists. Fascinating.
TCross
Wayne Throop
::: have to claw your way to the top.
: Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
: .... red in fang and claw.
An interesting slogan, known to be false as a generalization.
In fact, cooperation can and does evolve, and games theory
has analyzed how and why it works.
: The corollary to Evolution is recognized by everyone by Evolutionists.
It's "recognized" by people who ignore the actual facts of the matter,
in favor of slogans.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
James A. Donald
wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 06:34:08 +1000, James A. Donald
In the ancestral environment, the top of the food chain - but it does
not matter what you are climbing, natural selection depicts a world in
which man is on his own.
Tom McDonald
Nope. You have been lead astray.
Human evolution is characterized more by cooperation than by
competition.
And human competition does not mean constant war or violence. In fact,
much of human competition has a cooperative element, with rules
regarding how one competes and how one wins.
Richo
On the contary - humans have no claws and pathetic teeth and run
slower than amost everything that could make a meal out of us - our
only chance of survival is to be part of a family group /tribe.
"Being Not Alone" is absolutely fundamental to being human.
Mark
Ralph
Of course he was, Cross, your misinformation not notwithstanding.
Ralph
Still on the 'faith' kick, I see.
raven1
<jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
It's nice that you think so, but again, that's irrelevant to either
the truth or falsity of evolution, or the existence of a creator.
raven1
Feel free to explain. I could use the laugh.
Terry Cross
> ::: The message of natural selection is that you are on your own, and
> ::: have to claw your way to the top.
>
> : .... red in fang and claw.
>
> An interesting slogan, known to be false as a generalization.
> In fact, cooperation can and does evolve, and games theory
> has analyzed how and why it works.
How it really works is told in both the garden and the food chain
under the sea.
> : The corollary to Evolution is recognized by everyone [except] Evolutionists.
>
> It's "recognized" by people who ignore the actual facts of the matter,
> in favor of slogans.
Anyone can see the forest without the rose-tinted lenses of your
political dictates. Plants compete without mercy for sunlight, and
the loser dies. The only "cooperation" is enjoyed by the vine, which
exploits the plants with rigid stocks until the vine can reach the sun
and smother its former helper.
> Wayne Throop thro...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Some people see anything they are told to see regardless of the view.
If they look at a garden, they see the "cooperation" between the
pollonized and the pollonizer. Their eyes pass unseeing over the
ravages of insect damage to root, stem, and leaf.
To those with politically corrected vision, the "food chain" is a
cooperative effort between multiple living species to turn minerals
into biomass. There are no predators, there is no competition, and
every wish upon a star comes true for baby elephants in flowery aprons
and disposable diapers.
TCross
raven1
<jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 20:39:47 GMT, David Johnston <da...@block.net>
>wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 06:34:08 +1000, James A. Donald
>> <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 09:23:46 -0400, raven1
>> >> You do realize that the fact of biological evolution has nothing to do
>> >> with whether or not a "personal Creator" exists, right?
>> >
>> >The fact of natural selection has everything to do with a personal
>> >creator. The message of natural selection is that you are on your
>> >own, and have to claw your way to the top.
>> >
>>
>> Of what?
>
>In the ancestral environment, the top of the food chain - but it does
>not matter what you are climbing, natural selection depicts a world in
>which man is on his own.
Which is why it's nice that we, like other primates, have evolved to
be social animals who cooperate with each other.
Terry Cross
In the minds of such deep thinkers, no doubt the "rules" were given to
mankind on golden platters. Who, we might ask, obeyed those rules?
The American aborigine in perpetual inter-tribal war all across the
continent? The African aborigine practicing brutal rituals of infant
sexual mutilation and self-scarring? The European and Asian aborigine
with the invention of mass warfare and extermination of fellow-tribes
and species?
"Rules"? Good grief. Perhaps such thinkers are impressed by the
"rules" when they look into their microscopes and read the words,
"Made in China" superimposed on their samples.
TCross
Tom McDonald
Not much on game theory, are you?
Interestingly, your ignorance is not an argument for your views.
Terry Cross
Game theory is neither science nor any other established discipline.
One textbook, or even a dozen textbooks, do not make a subject.
Now answer the question -- What are the natural (quoting you) "rules
regarding how one competes and how one wins"?
TCross
Burkhard
A Jewish reform rabbi I'd say. Matthew 5:17-19 and all that
Terry Cross
And of the Mosaic Law, how many did Jesus "break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so"?
1) Kosher
2) Sabbath
3) stoning
4) race hatred for Gentiles
5) animal sacrifice
6) sanctity of the Temple
7) reverence for the priesthood/rabbis/Sanhedrin
8) animal sacrifice
9) avarice
10) etc.
All the pillars of Judaism.
TCross
Terry Cross
According to the Atheist catechism, Jesus did not exist. Now you
contradict yourself, Ralph. Paradox is a logical fallacy.
TCross
Yap
You have to spell out clearly what you are trying to impress.
In the human world, we have progressed long enough to acquire proper
rules for all things, or most things if you like.
But since you are talking about the aborigines and tribes, they are
still underdeveloped and don't have sufficient "rules" and "modern
knowledge".
But, as the same with animals, they are taking care of their
individual tribes, don't they?
Much like US has been taking care of its interests all over the world.
Except that, as a sole superpower, it has been bias and intimating in
its implementation.
Now, as China is standing up to become another power, US tries to have
"rules".
"Made in China" and US treasury bills can be powerful incentive even
for a world bully, right?
Yap
You mean that rules being imposed by US on its allies?
Oh, I know, US needs to keep base in Japan, Korea and EU.
And US needs to put trillion of dollars into research to make sure it
is ahead in all weapon systems.
And US is required to implement space defence system.
Never mind there is no enemy.....ah, perhaps, cook up one....China.
Is this what you wish to hear?
Linda Lee
<Since_humans_read_this_I_am_spammed_too_m...@spamyourself.com> wrote:
> Sound of Trumpet schreef:
> my Father a few thousand years after I die? Or will they honour my
> lessons and be honest?"
>
> That would be a good question to you and your kind.
>
> But hey, who am I to put words in Jesus mouth?
> That would be very presumptuous.
>
> Erwin Moller
>
> --
> "There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
> make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
> other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
> deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
> -- C.A.R. Hoare
WWDD. Jesus would ask, What Would Darwin Do? Lol!
Yap
Holland called 'Holes'?
Yap
To spell out clearly what you are to trying to trying to trying to
spell out. Spell out clearly what you are to trying to impress.
But, as they? All animals, don't have sufficient "rules and "modern
knowledge". But, as things if you are individual the about since you
are tribes, the talking enough to acquire tribes, things, But, as they
are tribes, don't have progressed long same with animals, But the
still undern knowledge". But, as their individual their individual the
for all undern knowledge". But, as thing same with and long care
progressed and they But, as the for most the takings, the sufficient
"rules" animals, if you like. But, as the for all they are talkings if
you are the human world, we human world, we human world, we human
world, we human world, we human world, we human world, we human world,
we human world, we human world,. Like.
"Made interests all over US tries to been for a Except that, as
implementive superpower, its implementive "rules". Except the world.
Except that, as all over US tries to has in China" another to have
even US tries to have even. Now, as has bully, right? Become all over
powerful interests anothe world. As incentation. Except ther power, US
tries to be power, it has a Except that, as all over power, it has
been for a Except ther US tries to has a world bully, right? Been
taking can be power, "Made in China is stand US has have "rules".
"Made in like US treasury bias China" another US has all over powerful
intive even for a world. Now, as implementation.
Yap
Stalking me get you somewhere near nowhere.
Show you face man, you can't hide, not even if you hide under the ass
of your god....
Yap
> Holland called 'Holes'?
Well, I don't know, do you?
Yap
news:aec7887f-a154-4690...@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
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Yap
Ralph
Using that wide brush again, Cross?
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
Jesus confessed to the Darwinian, "I just hate those who use my name
for the Republican Party."
And the guy said, "It doesn't make a difference, Republican or
Democrat. Whatever!"
Jimbo
> On Jun 1, 2:15 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
> patina, a veneer adopted to hide his true nature. Darwin was a member
> of the Royal Society, an infamously Atheist institution that engaged
> in a number of ugly practices to promote its agenda.
>
> TCross- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
LOL! Historical revision much?
JFW Richards
> On Jun 1, 2:00 pm, Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 20:39:47 GMT, David Johnston <da...@block.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > >On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 06:34:08 +1000, James A. Donald
> > ><jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> > >>On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 09:23:46 -0400, raven1
> > >>> You do realize that the fact of biological evolution has nothing to do
> > >>> with whether or not a "personal Creator" exists, right?
>
> > >>The fact of natural selection has everything to do with a personal
> > >>creator. The message of natural selection is that you are on your
> > >>own, and have to claw your way to the top.
>
> > >Of what?
>
>
> everyone by Evolutionists. Fascinating.
>
> TCross
'Nature red in tooth and claw' is from Tennyson's In Memoriam (1850)
the Origin of Species was not published until 1859. Unless you believe
Darwin was brining in some extraordinary copy editors I don't think
you can make that theory stick.
Regards
JFWR
Stephen Allcroft
> On Jun 1, 4:22 pm, Tom McDonald <kilt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> The American aborigine in perpetual inter-tribal war all across the
> continent?
Counting Coup sounds quite a bit safer than cricket, of course in the
US you play your mutant of rugby in body armour...
Stephen Allcroft
>
> - Show quoted text -
Catechism, I didn't know atheists were catechised. I'm glad I'm not
one...
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
And the Darwinian will say, "Because life will go on as always after
your death."
Greg Goss
>If people from Poland are called 'Poles', why aren't people from
>Holland called 'Holes'?
People from the Netherlands are called Nederlanders.
Dutch is, amusingly, a variant of a word meaning "German".
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Terry Cross
> On Jun 1, 10:37 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 1, 2:00 pm, Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 20:39:47 GMT, David Johnston <da...@block.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > >On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 06:34:08 +1000, James A. Donald
> > > ><jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 09:23:46 -0400, raven1
> > > >>> You do realize that the fact of biological evolution has nothing to do
> > > >>> with whether or not a "personal Creator" exists, right?
>
> > > >>The fact of natural selection has everything to do with a personal
> > > >>creator. The message of natural selection is that you are on your
> > > >>own, and have to claw your way to the top.
>
> > > >Of what?
>
> > > He pulls this stuff out of his arse.
>
> > ... red in fang and claw. The corollary to Evolution is recognized by
>
> > TCross
>
> 'Nature red in tooth and claw' is from Tennyson's In Memoriam (1850)
> the Origin of Species was not published until 1859. Unless you believe
> Darwin was brining in some extraordinary copy editors I don't think
> you can make that theory stick.
You seem to think the meaning of the poem disappeared the moment it
was published. Fascinating.
TCross
Terry Cross
wrote:
> On 2 June, 02:34, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 1, 4:22 pm, Tom McDonald <kilt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The American aborigine in perpetual inter-tribal war all across the
> > continent?
>
> Counting Coup sounds quite a bit safer than cricket,
Is that what you call it when someone is scalped? And you think that
is safer than cricket? Fascinating.
> of course in the
> US you play your mutant of rugby in body armour...
We don't take scalps any more.
Terry Cross
Slaughtering the "missing link" Australian Aboriginals for trophies
and museum exhibits was but one example of the Royal Society in action.
Burkhard
You mean like William Ramsay Smith? He was probably the most notorious
of the body part collectors, but despite some rumours, he did not kill
for the remains, he got them for free when investigating as coroner
the massacre sites, where farmers/militia had murdered aborigines. And
yes, we has a fellow for the Royal Society - and also a member of the
ultra-conservative "Free Church of Scotland" which had paid for his
studies, which makes your claim of an atheist conspiracy, well
laughable.
Jimbo
wrote:
After my visit to Melbourne, Australia a few years back and attending
their "Australian Rules" version of Rugby, I wouldn't go out there in
anything less than a tank. :D It was fun to watch, but brutal at the
same time.
Jimbo
I did some family history research where I was lucky enough to trace
my 4th Great Grandfather back to a small town called Rahrbach that was
in Prussia, now Germany. They spoke a Dutch/German hybrid dialect.
So, at some point, the two people were most likely connected or from
the same peoples.
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
Jesus would have said, "What's Darwinian"?
Then the Darwinian would reply, "What you do when you catch fish."
Syd M.
wrote:
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>
First, prove 'Jesus' ever existed, troll.
Second, only lying fundies use the term 'Darwinian.'
PDW
Syd M.
> On Jun 1, 4:28 am, Erwin Moller
>
>
>
> <Since_humans_read_this_I_am_spammed_too_m...@spamyourself.com> wrote:
> > Sound of Trumpet schreef:
>
>
> > > What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
>
>
> > > Before we can consider what questions Jesus might ask a Darwinian, we
> > > should take a moment to find out a little about what a Darwinian
> > > actually believes and just who Darwin was.
>
> > > So, who was Darwin?
>
> > > Charles Darwin was born in 1809. After quitting medicine at Edinburgh,
> > > Darwin was sent to Christ College Cambridge by his father to study for
> > > the clergy. He developed a passion for natural history at college, and
> > > spent most of his time collecting beetles. After completing his
> > > studies, when he was 22 years old he was asked if he would like to
> > > fill a vacancy as the naturalist on the H.M.S. Beagle during its 5
> > > year voyage of South America. During his voyage Darwin collected
> > > thousands of specimens. He noticed differences between finches
> > > collected on different islands in the Galapagos. Darwin wondered how
> > > these differences came about, and began developing his theory of
> > > transmutation, whereby one species could evolve in response to it's
> > > environment, and form a whole new species.
>
> > > Darwin conducted his research in private, because he new that none of
> > > the other naturalists would believe him. By 1842 he had written a
> > > comprehensive draft of a book describing how evolution could occur by
> > > processes such as natural selection. Darwin believed that animals
> > > evolved according to strict laws of nature set down by God during
> > my Father a few thousand years after I die? Or will they honour my
> > lessons and be honest?"
>
> > That would be a good question to you and your kind.
>
> > But hey, who am I to put words in Jesus mouth?
> > That would be very presumptuous.
>
> > Erwin Moller
>
> > --
> > "There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
> > make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
> > other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
> > deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>
And be laughed out of the room.
PDW
Christopher A. Lee
>Yap <hhya...@gmail.commie> wrote:
>
>>If people from Poland are called 'Poles', why aren't people from
>>Holland called 'Holes'?
>
>People from the Netherlands are called Nederlanders.
>
>Dutch is, amusingly, a variant of a word meaning "German".
With "Neder" meaning "low" - it's the same word as "nether" in
English. The low lands.
Christopher A. Lee
Depends what Ossies call people from a certain Northern Australian
city.
JFW Richards
No, I seem to think that the idea was current before "Darwinism" and
thus its adoption cannot be explained by a change in view of the world
caused by "Darwinism". I apologise for not pointing out that 1850 is
before 1859, I really didn't think that necessary.
Regards
JFWR
Terry Cross
Dates notwithstanding, the line has often been quoted as the essence
of Darwin's thesis because it is so succinct and clear. See, for
example, http://tinyurl.com/28qqhkl
TCross
JFW Richards
I also didn't think I needed to point out that "red in fang and claw"
was a mis-quotation since I did provide the original line in my
original comment. Clearly I must try harder.
The fact that a mis-quoted line from an earlier poem has been used by
people who appear to know as much about Biology as they do about
English Literature to summarize Evolutionary Theory is not a
particularly convincing argument.
Regards
JFWR
harry k
>
> - Show quoted text -
You expected cogent arguments from Terry?
Harry K
Terry Cross
The phrase is not an argument -- it is a characterization. In this
context, it is not intended as a literary reference. It is a popular
portrait of Evolution.
Recall that the literary phrase was brought into this conversation by
you. Now you claim that anyone who says something similar is
misquoting an earlier reference that was written before Darwin's
Origin was published.
It's a bit of a stretch, but can get all huffy if you want. For some
people, those experiences are essential nutrition.
TCross
Bill
> ::: The message of natural selection is that you are on your own, and
> ::: have to claw your way to the top.
>
> : .... red in fang and claw.
>
> An interesting slogan, known to be false as a generalization.
> In fact, cooperation can and does evolve, and games theory
> has analyzed how and why it works.
You make an interesting point: Does analysis equal fact? If something
is studied does the very act of studying it create facts? If something
is explained is it validated by the explanation?
I think the answer is "yes" for most people. If we add the additional
qualifier, scientific, then the answer is an emphatic, "Yes!". From
what I see most of the time, we accept things as facts if we trust the
source. Being non-specialists, most of us will just accept what the
specialists tell us - uncritically.
Bill
>
> : The corollary to Evolution is recognized by everyone by Evolutionists.
>
> It's "recognized" by people who ignore the actual facts of the matter,
> in favor of slogans.
>
> Wayne Throop thro...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
What would Jesus ask a Darwinian???
"What're you, on glue?!"
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"A text without a context becomes a proof-text
for a pre-text" - Carson
Terry Cross
> > > processes such as natural selection. Darwin believed that animals
> > > evolved according to strict laws of nature set down by God during
> > > Creation.
>
> > This is cited by some people, but Darwin's Christianity was only a
> > patina, a veneer adopted to hide his true nature. Darwin was a member
> > of the Royal Society, an infamously Atheist institution that engaged
> > in a number of ugly practices to promote its agenda.
>
> >TCross- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> LOL! Historical revision much?
Darwin himself stated in a letter that he wrote those pro-Christian
passages to soften the opposition to his thesis.
Terry Cross
<Since_humans_read_this_I_am_spammed_too_m...@spamyourself.com> wrote:
> Terry Cross schreef:
> Infamous?
> You don't know what you are talking about.
> In those days the Royal Society was a well respected important
> institution. Nowadays it is more marginal of course.
>
> And by the way: Why do you misspell atheist? It should be atheist, not
> Atheist.
> At the beginning of a sentence you can use the capital A.
> Understand?
Atheism should be accorded the same respect that any other cult
enjoys.
David Johnston
Really? You mean you think atheism should be tax exempt?
Anthrax Mailer
>What would Jesus ask a Darwinian???
>"What're you, on glue?!"
There's some irony in that inasmuch as the early Jesus cult started
out as a Mithyratic mushroom cult until Paul/Saul of Tarsus took over.
---
Does belief in astrology cause insanity? http://www.skeptictank.org/edm.htm
Terry Cross
Why not? But also, research, museums, publications, and programs
concerning Evolution and Deep Space Cosmology should get no tax money,
because that is a violation of the First Amendment establishment
clause.
And Evolution must be kept out of the public schools, except as a slot
in the Religions of the World class.
TCross
Terry Cross
> Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >What would Jesus ask a Darwinian???
> >"What're you, on glue?!"
>
> There's some irony in that inasmuch as the early Jesus cult started
> out as a Mithyratic mushroom cult until Paul/Saul of Tarsus took over.
The prime historical evidence for that postulate is a recent Hollywood
movie.
TCross
Bill
If Plato's mysticism had on caught on people would deny he ever
existed too. The fact of someone's existence is less important than
the effects of their existence it seems. What this means is that facts
are less important than how they ramify. From that it appears that all
this talk about fact is really just thinly disguised bias; we believe
what we want to believe and then manufacture supporting facts.
As has been pointed out before, many times, we can't be sure of the
actual existence of just about anyone in the first century so all we
have is conjecture. We have the same degree of empirical and objective
evidence for the existence of Mythras, Jesus and Paul/Saul as, say,
Socrates or Plato yet we pick and choose who gets to be real and who
is mere myth. The fact is, the consequences of people believing Jesus
actually lived and what his life means is what we have to deal with.
Bill
William December Starr
Sound of Trumpet <soundof...@dcemail.com> stole:
> http://www.christchurchcentral.co.uk/toughquestions/darwinian.html
>
> What would Jesus ask a Darwinian?
"Why are so many people being such fucking assholes and saying that
they're doing it in *my* name?"
-- wds