What was Cordewainer Smith's influence on science fiction?
23vl
David DeLaney
>Well,what do you think?
Highly influential. (For one thing, showed that it was possible to do Almost
Perfectly Alien Concepts And Characters in a followable way. Or, if you like,
showed that stories, plots, and names that sounded like they were only about
half-translated into English could still be compelling, absorbing, and
un-put-downable.)
Two point seven thumbs up, would read again.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
23vl
Yeah,but I was thinking more along the lines of specific examples like
that quote from Pratchet about Smith's works being "timeless",and the
whole "human Instrumentlity" thing from Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Anthony Nance
> Well,what do you think?
Off the top of my pointed little head:
- One of the first to have a long future history
- One of the first to "uplift" animals (though he didn't call it that)
- One of the first to use/insert psychology and psychological ideas
In addition, he wrote some very weird/unusual ideas, striking images,
new words - he's not often cited as influencing the New Wave, but
his ideas and imagery certainly weakened some walls and boundaries
that the New Wave pushed through.
Tony
Michael Grosberg
> 23vl <2389...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well,what do you think?
>
> Off the top of my pointed little head:
To be honest, this one has to go to Alfred Bester who wrote stories on
just about every concept in the fields (or belief systems) of
psychology and psychoanalysis.
Michael Grosberg
> Well,what do you think?
I think he was on of the first to tell SF stories as if they were
legends, with a weird fairy-tale logic. His characters are strange,
his worlds phantasmagorical and hallucinogenic. He understood the fun
and attraction of strangeness for its own sake. His works were also
very spiritual in some sense. If youwant specific works that he
influenced, I think Wolfe's _The Book of the New Sun_ is a good
example: a far future filled with inscrutable characters, unexplained
events and technologies, and magical/spiritual overtones.
Anthony Nance
Sure - Bester did a lot of this, and a healthy amount of it before
Smith was writing his. I don't see Smith as recycling or rehashing
Bester, though.
Due to his real-life duties, Smith was an expert in psychological
warfare and this (and a concurrent interest in psychology in general)
shows up in different levels and ways of his work.
Tony
Matt Hughes
> Well,what do you think?
Well, he was one of the authors I read in my teens and twenties who
influenced me to become a science-fantasy writer.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
lal_truckee
> Well,what do you think?
You mean like "He has a good beat, you can dance to him. I'd buy it."
23vl
More or less it is:"I liked his stuff and want more,similar things by
others."
23vl
wrote:
I ve heard of those-they are part of the "Dying Earth" sub-genre.Also
do you think that Mark Geston's "Lords of the starship" can fit in
with Smith's work.
Mike Schilling
Smith was a big Van Vogt fan, as you can see from the cover letter
from his submission of "Scanners Live in Vain" to Fantasy Book
(reprinted in the NESFA Smith collection). You can see some influence
there, too, in particular a disinterest in scientific plausibility
and ideas and plots that make more sense emotionally than rationally.
Those also reappeared in the New Wave.
23vl
wrote:
> Anthony Nance wrote:
Van Vogt?
I should have guessed considering things like "Black destroyer",and
Null-A,they rely quite a bit on emotions.And as for new wave-I've had
few experiences with it,and most were not exactly pleasant-things like
Babel 17 for example-bizarre book,that I couldn't have understood at
the time,probably because I was too young.Also Thomas Disch's the
genocides-I found it interesting,and at the same time
depressing,nauseating and deeply disturbing.However in hindsight I
must say that the leftover feelings from those books are somewhat
pleasant in a very strange way.Also can Dick be considered a "New
Wave" writer,I am not exactly familiar with "New Wave" since until
recently I read mostly space operas, hard sf,military sf,and some
alternative history from time to time.
Michael Grosberg
I've never even heard of Mark Geston, sorry.
You have to read Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun, though - If I'm ever
pressed into naming the single best work of SF ever, this would be a
strong contender.
23vl
I will,once I am done with Radio Free Albemuth and and The Hyperion
Cantos.As for Geston-you should definitely try him out.He has not
written that many things,but they are all great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_the_Starship
Eric Walker
[...]
> More or less it is:"I liked his stuff and want more,similar things by
> others."
Personally, I consider him one of the greatest writers in specultaive-
fiction history. His stories use a fine and distinctive prose style to
examine the inner workings of the human heart and soul against a backdrop
canvas of rich and vivid imaginings.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, webmaster
Great Science-Fiction & Fantasy Works
http://greatsfandf.com
Now with forums.
David Librik
>Well,what do you think?
Ursula K. LeGuin says that reading "Alpha Ralpha Boulevard" convinced her
that SF could do what she wanted from literature, so she started writing
her own SF and Fantasy stories. (She had written a few things with her
brother back when she was a teenager, but they weren't very good.)
Later, when she edited the Norton Anthology Of Science Fiction (which
really should have been called the Norton History Of The New Wave) she
stuck Cordwainer Smith in there as one of the first authors to read.
- David Librik
lib...@panix.com
mimus
> 23vl <238...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Well,what do you think?
>
> Ursula K. LeGuin says that reading "Alpha Ralpha Boulevard" convinced her
> that SF could do what she wanted from literature, so she started writing
> her own SF and Fantasy stories.
That's _weird_, considering that "Boulevard" is far and away the weakest
of the late Smith "Instrumentality" stories, and has Smith's single
stupidest line:
"We watched at the eye-machine when cholera was released in Tasmania, and
we saw the Tasmanians dancing in the streets, now that they did not have
to be protected any more."
--
"Meow."
< "The Game of Rat and Dragon"
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
Not directly related to your message, but mention of Bester triggered
this. Are there many people here who think highly of Bester's work? Or
was his appeal more to a certain generation, when his ideas were still new?
I've read perhaps half a dozen of his short stories; "Adam & No Eve" was
the only one that held interest.
I've not read _Demolished Man_, but I found _The Stars My Destination_
pretty average.
What am I missing?
--
"When I used to take whiskey, I found that one glass would excite me,
but that six would send me to sleep, which is just the opposite. Now,
suppose electricity were to act in just the opposite way also."
- "The Los Amigos Fiasco" by Arthur Conan Doyle
<http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2008/09/arthur-conan-doyle-los-amigos-fiasco.html>
SteveT
wrote:
>> Ursula K. LeGuin says that reading "Alpha Ralpha Boulevard" convinced her
>> that SF could do what she wanted from literature, so she started writing
>> her own SF and Fantasy stories.
>
>That's _weird_, considering that "Boulevard" is far and away the weakest
>of the late Smith "Instrumentality" stories, and has Smith's single
>stupidest line:
>
>"We watched at the eye-machine when cholera was released in Tasmania, and
>we saw the Tasmanians dancing in the streets, now that they did not have
>to be protected any more."
Funny you should see it like that. I thought it was one of his best
stories, and that one sentence summed up what he was trying to say
perfectly.
ColinM
Jaimie Vandenbergh
>Michael Grosberg wrote:
>> On Jul 23, 3:25 pm, na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) wrote:
>>> 23vl <2389...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Well,what do you think?
>>> Off the top of my pointed little head:
>>> - One of the first to use/insert psychology and psychological ideas
>>
>>
>> To be honest, this one has to go to Alfred Bester who wrote stories on
>> just about every concept in the fields (or belief systems) of
>> psychology and psychoanalysis.
>
>Not directly related to your message, but mention of Bester triggered
>this. Are there many people here who think highly of Bester's work? Or
>was his appeal more to a certain generation, when his ideas were still new?
>
>I've read perhaps half a dozen of his short stories; "Adam & No Eve" was
>the only one that held interest.
>
>I've not read _Demolished Man_, but I found _The Stars My Destination_
>pretty average.
>
>What am I missing?
The newness, as you suspect. Bester's ideas and themes were
particularly rapidly absorbed into the mainstream of SF, so reading
them now for the first time would be rather "I've heard this
before....".
Cheers - Jaimie
--
Real Daleks don't climb the stairs - real Daleks level the building.
Mike Schilling
>
> "We watched at the eye-machine when cholera was released in
> Tasmania,
> and we saw the Tasmanians dancing in the streets, now that they did
> not have to be protected any more."
Poor devils.
Eric Walker
[...]
> Not directly related to your message, but mention of Bester triggered
> this. Are there many people here who think highly of Bester's work? Or
> was his appeal more to a certain generation, when his ideas were still
> new?
>
> I've read perhaps half a dozen of his short stories; "Adam & No Eve" was
> the only one that held interest.
>
> I've not read _Demolished Man_, but I found _The Stars My Destination_
> pretty average.
>
> What am I missing?
Not much. Bester is one of not a few authors (of his period) of whom it
may be said that they seemed as giants for they strode among pygmies.
(See Theodore Sturgeon, Phil Dick, &c &c.)
Sidebar: http://greatsfandf.com/miscellaneous-topics.php#WHEREIS
thang ornithorhynchus
wrote:
>Well,what do you think?
Most answers to your question about this writer focus on what he did,
rather than his influence. Influence connotes cause and effect,
therefore what you are asking is whether, and to what extent, he
effected change or action in SF writers.
I have read most if not all of Cordwainer Smith's works (I think A
Planet Called Shayol is his best and most imaginative, and boy, was he
imaginative) and I cannot think of a single author who was influenced
by him. No one that I know of writes like him, or structures their
universe like him, or characterises like him. His prose was quite
inimitable and I would imagine very difficult to counterfeit.
The answer? Very little, he was a shooting star and a phenomenon.
That's it.
thang
Eric Walker
[...]
> Most answers to your question about this writer focus on what he did,
> rather than his influence. Influence connotes cause and effect,
> therefore what you are asking is whether, and to what extent, he
> effected change or action in SF writers. . . .
>
> I cannot think of a single author who was influenced by him. No one
> that I know of writes like him, or structures their universe like him,
> or characterises like him. His prose was quite inimitable and I would
> imagine very difficult to counterfeit.
>
> The answer? Very little, he was a shooting star and a phenomenon.
> That's it.
By and large, all that is reasonable and true. But I agree with the
poster who suggested that Gene Wolfe was probably materially influenced
by Smith. Wolfe is not a manifest copy, but that is immaterial under the
definition of "influence".
(It is, I think, not a coincidence that both authors embody important
theological considerations in their works.)
Mike Schilling
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:01:10 +0530, tkmailers wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Not directly related to your message, but mention of Bester
>> triggered
>> this. Are there many people here who think highly of Bester's work?
>> Or was his appeal more to a certain generation, when his ideas were
>> still new?
>>
>> I've read perhaps half a dozen of his short stories; "Adam & No
>> Eve"
>> was the only one that held interest.
>>
>> I've not read _Demolished Man_, but I found _The Stars My
>> Destination_ pretty average.
>>
>> What am I missing?
>
> Not much. Bester is one of not a few authors (of his period) of
> whom
> it may be said that they seemed as giants for they strode among
> pygmies. (See Theodore Sturgeon, Phil Dick, &c &c.)
>
You're aware that this is an idiosyncratic view. For most SF fans
(then and now), all of these are giants still.
pan
>> Michael Grosberg wrote:
>>> On Jul 23, 3:25 pm, na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) wrote:
>>>> 23vl <2389...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Well,what do you think?
>>>> Off the top of my pointed little head:
>>>> - One of the first to use/insert psychology and psychological ideas
>>>
>>>
>>> To be honest, this one has to go to Alfred Bester who wrote stories
>>> on just about every concept in the fields (or belief systems) of
>>> psychology and psychoanalysis.
>>
>> Not directly related to your message, but mention of Bester triggered
>> this. Are there many people here who think highly of Bester's work?
>> Or
>> was his appeal more to a certain generation, when his ideas were
>> still new?
>>
>> I've read perhaps half a dozen of his short stories; "Adam & No Eve"
>> was the only one that held interest.
>>
>> I've not read _Demolished Man_, but I found _The Stars My
>> Destination_ pretty average.
>>
>> What am I missing?
Eight, sir; seven, sir;
Six, sir; five, sir;
Four, sir; three, sir;
Two, sir; one!
Tenser, said the Tensor.
Tenser, said the Tensor.
Tension, apprehension,
And dissension have begun.
Mark Zenier
He was later than you think.
In other words, although he got stories in the magazines for years,
his collections didn't start to come out until the mid 1960's and more
in the '70s. (In the middle of the New Wave). So you'd have to look
at 1980's authors and books for evidence of influence.
David Gerrold's _The Space Skimmer_ seems very Smithian, for example.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
mimus
Like you need to go looking for infectious illnesses, or that there was
any hint that medicine was going to be abandoned, or that people would
celebrate a plague being released . . . .
--
"You are either insane or a fool."
"I am a sanitary inspector."
< _Maske: Thaery_
mimus
Some "shooting star"-- I mean, he's still read and greatly admired-- I
mean, _I_ still read him and greatly admire him (got the NESFA, got the
"All Worlds Travel Pass" from the Instrumentality . . . ).
As for "phenomenon", _everything_ is a phenomenon.
Better to list him with authors who basically stand alone, like Joyce,
Peake, David Bunch, David Lindsay . . . .
I'm sure there's a word or expression for such authors/artists, but I
can't remember it ("sui generis" isn't quite it, _beaux monstres_ applies
basically to single works).
--
The hell with the Galactic Overlords
and their tastes in literature.
< _The Day of the Burning_
Eric Walker
> Eric Walker wrote:
>
>> Not much. Bester is one of not a few authors (of his period) of whom
>> it may be said that they seemed as giants for they strode among
>> pygmies. (See Theodore Sturgeon, Phil Dick, &c &c.)
>>
>>
> You're aware that this is an idiosyncratic view. For most SF fans (then
> and now), all of these are giants still.
Perhaps so. Mind, I didn't say they were bad, or even mediocre: just
that, in at lest one opinion, not giants.
(I mean, if those are giants, what are M. John Harrison or Jack Vance or--
lest we forget the thread title--Cordwainer Smith?)
Eric Walker
> Eric Walker wrote:
>
>> Not much. Bester is one of not a few authors (of his period) of whom
>> it may be said that they seemed as giants for they strode among
>> pygmies. (See Theodore Sturgeon, Phil Dick, &c &c.)
>>
>>
> You're aware that this is an idiosyncratic view. For most SF fans (then
> and now), all of these are giants still.
Perhaps so. Mind, I didn't say they were bad, or even mediocre: just
that, in at lest one opinion, not giants.
(I mean, if those are giants, what are M. John Harrison or Jack Vance or--
lest we forget the thread title--Cordwainer Smith?)
SteveT
wrote:
>>> That's _weird_, considering that "Boulevard" is far and away the
>>> weakest of the late Smith "Instrumentality" stories, and has Smith's
>>> single stupidest line:
>>>
>>> "We watched at the eye-machine when cholera was released in Tasmania,
>>> and we saw the Tasmanians dancing in the streets, now that they did not
>>> have to be protected any more."
>>
>> Funny you should see it like that. I thought it was one of his best
>> stories, and that one sentence summed up what he was trying to say
>> perfectly.
>
>Like you need to go looking for infectious illnesses, or that there was
>any hint that medicine was going to be abandoned, or that people would
>celebrate a plague being released . . . .
These people live in a kind of utopia, and, the way I see it, they're
so pissed off with such a "perfect" society that they'll take the risk
on disease if only they can have some fun.
ColinM.
Michael Grosberg
> Michael Grosberg wrote:
> > On Jul 23, 3:25 pm, na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) wrote:
> >> 23vl <2389...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Well,what do you think?
> >> Off the top of my pointed little head:
> >> - One of the first to use/insert psychology and psychological ideas
>
> > To be honest, this one has to go to Alfred Bester who wrote stories on
> > just about every concept in the fields (or belief systems) of
> > psychology and psychoanalysis.
>
> Not directly related to your message, but mention of Bester triggered
> this. Are there many people here who think highly of Bester's work? Or
> was his appeal more to a certain generation, when his ideas were still new?
>
> I've read perhaps half a dozen of his short stories; "Adam & No Eve" was
> the only one that held interest.
>
> I've not read _Demolished Man_, but I found _The Stars My Destination_
> pretty average.
>
> What am I missing?
There no accounting for personal taste. If you don't like him there's
nothing I could say to change your mind. Personally, I think he's one
of the greats - better than Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein etc. What I liked
about him are two things: the use of psychology in weird and
interesting ways, and the explosive pace of his books. Bester used a
lot of corny SF themes (time travel, last man on earth, superpowered
individuals) but used them in novel ways. For example, "5,271,009" was
an used a succession of increasingly juvenile SF power fantasies to
deconstruct SF itself and show how childish most of it was. This was
years before postmodernism or deconstruction existed. Or "The
Rollercoaster" which was about time travel - but this is a story in
which time travel is used by the people from the future to act out
sexual fantasies in the "primitive" past.
then there's "Fondly Fahrenheit" with its inventive use of first
person narrative that switches bewween an android and its human owner,
sometimes in mid sentence.
And his pace... he was a writer for radio serials, so his books
sometimes read like comics come alive with strange concepts coming
from left field on every page.
Lastly, from his later works, I really love "The Computer
Connection", just because it's so damn funny.
David DeLaney
>Mike Schilling wrote:
>> You're aware that this is an idiosyncratic view. For most SF fans (then
>> and now), all of these are giants still.
>
>Perhaps so. Mind, I didn't say they were bad, or even mediocre: just
>that, in at lest one opinion, not giants.
>
>(I mean, if those are giants, what are M. John Harrison or Jack Vance or--
>lest we forget the thread title--Cordwainer Smith?)
Supergiants?
Dave "titans?" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks for naming some of the stories (apart from "Fondly Fahrenheit",
which I've read) - may be I'll try something.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<grosberg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>There no accounting for personal taste. If you don't like him there's
>nothing I could say to change your mind. Personally, I think he's one
>of the greats - better than Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein etc. What I liked
>about him are two things: the use of psychology in weird and
>interesting ways, and the explosive pace of his books. Bester used a
>lot of corny SF themes (time travel, last man on earth, superpowered
>individuals) but used them in novel ways.
[snip]
>And his pace... he was a writer for radio serials, so his books
>sometimes read like comics come alive with strange concepts coming
>from left field on every page.
He also wrote comic books; he worked for DC Comics (then National
Periodical) for years.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm selling my comic collection -- see http://www.watt-evans.com/comics.html
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight0.html
FreeRangeAuthor
> On Jul 23, 6:10 pm, lal_truckee <lal_truc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > 23vl wrote:
> > > Well,what do you think?
>
>
> More or less it is:"I liked his stuff and want more,similar things by
> others."
I would recommend reading Ray Aldridge if you liked Smith. You will
have to hunt back issues of F & SF mag for many of Aldridge's stories,
and he's written one trilogy, The Emancipator.
He's written many more stories than listed here,
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/a/ray-aldridge/
His web site is essentially defunct, http://www.goodpots.com
I consider his tales similar to C. Smith and Jack Vance.
Browse around Locus Mag online for a good bibliography, www.locusmag.com
-- Seattle
Mike Schilling
>
> I would recommend reading Ray Aldridge if you liked Smith. You will
> have to hunt back issues of F & SF mag for many of Aldridge's
> stories,
> and he's written one trilogy, The Emancipator.
>
> He's written many more stories than listed here,
>
> http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/a/ray-aldridge/
>
> His web site is essentially defunct, http://www.goodpots.com
>
> I consider his tales similar to C. Smith and Jack Vance.
>
> Browse around Locus Mag online for a good bibliography,
> www.locusmag.com
>
Or use isfdb, which is, as always, your friend:
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?Ray%20Aldridge
Joe Bernstein
mimus <tinmi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:21:09 +0100, SteveT wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:13:57 -0400, mimus <tinmi...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
[Le Guin and "Alpha Ralpha Boulevard" - thanks, previous poster, for
beating me to it!]
> >> That's _weird_, considering that "Boulevard" is far and away the
> >> weakest of the late Smith "Instrumentality" stories, and has Smith's
> >> single stupidest line:
> >>
> >> "We watched at the eye-machine when cholera was released in Tasmania,
> >> and we saw the Tasmanians dancing in the streets, now that they did not
> >> have to be protected any more."
???
There have been years, although this evidently isn't one, when I could
quote that line from memory, both for its intrinsic wonder (here
inseparable from its intrinsic shock, but on this see below) and for the
way it evokes the entire story.
[In other words, full agreement with:]
> > Funny you should see it like that. I thought it was one of his best
> > stories, and that one sentence summed up what he was trying to say
> > perfectly.
> Like you need to go looking for infectious illnesses,
Um, yes, if you lived in the utopia of the full-blown Instrumentality
of Mankind, infectious diseases would indeed be exotic and unusual
things. The context here is that the story was written in 1961, or
shortly before, and antibiotics were doing more and more wonderful
things every year. (I was surprised to learn that the Sabin polio
vaccine didn't go to market until 1962, and the eradication campaign
wasn't under way until 1988; but aha! the global smallpox eradication
effort began in 1957, after an attempt to wipe it out in the Western
Hemisphere started in 1950. [1])
You think a story set thousands of years in the future can't reflect
greatly changed conditions of life? Next time you talk with someone
who's able to converse by telephone with a relative on another
continent, let me know about this immutability principle, OK?
Meantime, why on earth, if you hold such a static take on things,
would you ever read science fiction?
> or that there was
> any hint that medicine was going to be abandoned,
Wasn't that implicit in the story's whole ethos? The restoration of
death as a condition of human life is the central change the characters
were celebrating. One element of Smith's genius in this story is his
ability to go beyond. John Campbell would famously challenge his
writers to go beyond, to one level at least: "OK, so everyone's
immortal. What's wrong with that?" Here Smith takes for granted
that it's obvious what's wrong with that, and goes to another level,
by showing people celebrating the *end* of immortality - and then to
a third, by showing the fly in *their* ointment. All this on top of
some of his best writing? And you were disappointed?
(Wikipedia refers to the destruction of the native Tasmanian Aborigines
as "one of the first documented modern genocides". I was surprised to
learn that cholera was not, specifically, implicated in that genocide,
and indeed in the 19th century was thought more or less absent from the
island. Apparently Smith wasn't quite as cutting, in the sentence at
issue, as I've always thought; this isn't like his saying Jews or
Romany celebrated the reopening of concentration camps, this is like
his saying Nepalis did, or some such. Hmmm.)
> or that people would
> celebrate a plague being released . . . .
OK, so what, in *your* opinion, is the only plausible way for immortals
to behave?
(If at this point you choose to be smart, you object that they're no
longer immortal. Um, yeah, but the whole point of the story is that
they haven't figured out yet what that means...)
Joe Bernstein
[1] The web surfing it took to write this post also told me Smith came
from Milwaukee. Hot damn. I mean, it's not like I'm not proud of
Stanley Weinbaum and Robert Bloch, but I really *like* Smith...
Unlike those two, he didn't stay, but then neither have I.
--
Joe Bernstein, tax preparer, bookkeeper and writer j...@sfbooks.com
<http://www.panix.com/~josephb/>
Mike Schilling
>
> OK, so what, in *your* opinion, is the only plausible way for
> immortals to behave?
>
> (If at this point you choose to be smart, you object that they're no
> longer immortal. Um, yeah, but the whole point of the story is that
> they haven't figured out yet what that means...)
They weren't immortal; they lived (IIRC) 400 years, and then were
terminated. What's come back into the world isn't death, but chance
and danger.
Sean O'Hara
Yes, it's completely preposterous. I mean, here we live in a world
where vaccines have all but eliminated most deadly diseases in
developed countries, and you don't see anyone saying, "We shouldn't
immunize our children anymore."
--
Sean O'Hara <http://www.diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com>
New audio book: As Long as You Wish by John O'Keefe
<http://librivox.org/short-science-fiction-collection-010/>
Bill Snyder
<sean...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In the Year of the Earth Ox, the Great and Powerful mimus declared:
>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:21:09 +0100, SteveT wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:13:57 -0400, mimus <tinmi...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> That's _weird_, considering that "Boulevard" is far and away the
>>>> weakest of the late Smith "Instrumentality" stories, and has Smith's
>>>> single stupidest line:
>>>>
>>>> "We watched at the eye-machine when cholera was released in Tasmania,
>>>> and we saw the Tasmanians dancing in the streets, now that they did not
>>>> have to be protected any more."
>>> Funny you should see it like that. I thought it was one of his best
>>> stories, and that one sentence summed up what he was trying to say
>>> perfectly.
>>
>> Like you need to go looking for infectious illnesses, or that there was
>> any hint that medicine was going to be abandoned, or that people would
>> celebrate a plague being released . . . .
>>
>
>Yes, it's completely preposterous. I mean, here we live in a world
>where vaccines have all but eliminated most deadly diseases in
>developed countries, and you don't see anyone saying, "We shouldn't
>immunize our children anymore."
How long's it been since your last smallpox vaccination?
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Robert Bannister
> In the Year of the Earth Ox, the Great and Powerful mimus declared:
>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:21:09 +0100, SteveT wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:13:57 -0400, mimus <tinmi...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> That's _weird_, considering that "Boulevard" is far and away the
>>>> weakest of the late Smith "Instrumentality" stories, and has Smith's
>>>> single stupidest line:
>>>>
>>>> "We watched at the eye-machine when cholera was released in Tasmania,
>>>> and we saw the Tasmanians dancing in the streets, now that they did not
>>>> have to be protected any more."
>>> Funny you should see it like that. I thought it was one of his best
>>> stories, and that one sentence summed up what he was trying to say
>>> perfectly.
>>
>> Like you need to go looking for infectious illnesses, or that there was
>> any hint that medicine was going to be abandoned, or that people would
>> celebrate a plague being released . . . .
>>
>
> Yes, it's completely preposterous. I mean, here we live in a world where
> vaccines have all but eliminated most deadly diseases in developed
> countries, and you don't see anyone saying, "We shouldn't immunize our
> children anymore."
>
>
A number of diseases that I had thought were dead, like TB and whooping
cough, seem to be making a resurgence with our modern V�lkerwanderung.
Then there are the people who refuse to immunise their children for
weird religious reasons.
--
Rob Bannister
mimus
And they had hospitals all along, although people were so healthy that the
medical robots practiced on each other out of boredom.
--
"Meow."
< "The Game of Rat and Dragon"
Walter Bushell
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
Even atheists have these religious objections.
Robert Bannister
Uh? Would you care to explain that, please? I know of no non-religious
group that objects to immunisation of children (unless perhaps there are
serious grounds for believing a particular vaccine is dangerous, and
it's been a long time since the pharmaceutical industry allowed any
evidence of that to escape).
--
Rob Bannister
Tim McDaniel
Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>In article <M5GdnZ48bOsz2PfX...@giganews.com>,
>mimus <tinmi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:21:09 +0100, SteveT wrote:
>
>> > On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:13:57 -0400, mimus <tinmi...@hotmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> That's _weird_, considering that "Boulevard" is far and away the
>> >> weakest of the late Smith "Instrumentality" stories, and has
>> >> Smith's single stupidest line:
>> >>
>> >> "We watched at the eye-machine when cholera was released in
>> >> Tasmania, and we saw the Tasmanians dancing in the streets, now
>> >> that they did not have to be protected any more."
>> >
>> > stories, and that one sentence summed up what he was trying to say
>> > perfectly.
>> or that there was
>> any hint that medicine was going to be abandoned,
>
>Wasn't that implicit in the story's whole ethos? The restoration of
>death as a condition of human life is the central change the
>characters were celebrating.
Restoration of uncertainty and change.
It's also implicit in the ending of "Under Old Earth", and background
to _Norstrilia_.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Jaimie Vandenbergh
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Walter Bushell wrote:
>> In article <7dh9gdF...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>> A number of diseases that I had thought were dead, like TB and whooping
>>> cough, seem to be making a resurgence with our modern V�lkerwanderung.
>>> Then there are the people who refuse to immunise their children for
>>> weird religious reasons.
>>
>> Even atheists have these religious objections.
>
>Uh? Would you care to explain that, please? I know of no non-religious
>group that objects to immunisation of children
Then you live somewhere with a remarkably non-stupid populace.
I don't, unfortunately. Google "mmr vaccine objectors" for example.
>(unless perhaps there are
>serious grounds for believing a particular vaccine is dangerous,
or no grounds at all except media rabblerousing,
>and
>it's been a long time since the pharmaceutical industry allowed any
>evidence of that to escape).
See? You're feeding the conspiracy theorists right there!
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Everyone generalizes from one example. At least, I do." -- Steven Brust
Walter Bushell
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
I know atheist who refuse to allow their children to be vaccinated; on
what sounds to me like religious grounds.
Robert Bannister
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:00:09 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> Walter Bushell wrote:
>>> In article <7dh9gdF...@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>> A number of diseases that I had thought were dead, like TB and whooping
>>>> cough, seem to be making a resurgence with our modern V�lkerwanderung.
>>>> Then there are the people who refuse to immunise their children for
>>>> weird religious reasons.
>>> Even atheists have these religious objections.
>> Uh? Would you care to explain that, please? I know of no non-religious
>> group that objects to immunisation of children
>
> Then you live somewhere with a remarkably non-stupid populace.
>
> I don't, unfortunately. Google "mmr vaccine objectors" for example.
Amazing. I'm glad the judge took the sensible view. We do have some
objectors to cervical cancer vaccine in Australia, but there're all
religious nutters - apparently, immunisation against cervical cancer and
herpes will turn children into sex maniacs. Of course, for people who
believe the only source of moral behaviour is fear of some supernatural
entity, this probably makes perfect sense.
--
Rob Bannister
William December Starr
Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> said:
> I know atheist who refuse to allow their children to be
> vaccinated; on what sounds to me like religious grounds.
Are you sure you aren't making a simple logical error there?
All religious shit is crazy, but not all crazy is religious shit.
-- wds
Walter Bushell
The beliefs are held in a manner similar to religious beliefs. If it
acts like a duck, it may not be a duck, but it may as well be a canard.
Default User
> In article <h6f99g$2mq$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>
> > In article <proto-495B64....@news.panix.com>,
> > Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> said:
> >
> > > I know atheist who refuse to allow their children to be
> > > vaccinated; on what sounds to me like religious grounds.
> >
> > Are you sure you aren't making a simple logical error there?
> >
> > All religious shit is crazy, but not all crazy is religious shit.
> The beliefs are held in a manner similar to religious beliefs. If it
> acts like a duck, it may not be a duck, but it may as well be a
> canard.
Most of the objection to vaccination that I've heard has to do with the
supposed link to autism.
Brian
--
Day 198 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
pmfan57
wrote:> I think he was on of the first to tell SF stories as if they were
> legends, with a weird fairy-tale logic. His characters are strange,
> his worlds phantasmagorical and hallucinogenic. He understood the fun
> and attraction of strangeness for its own sake. His works were also
> very spiritual in some sense. If youwant specific works that he
> influenced, I think Wolfe's _The Book of the New Sun_ is a good
> example: a far future filled with inscrutable characters, unexplained
> events and technologies, and magical/spiritual overtones.
As someone once said about him, for one thing, he made us see that the
future was going to be strange (i.e., not just an extension of
today). I have read almost all his SF stuff (and none of this other
work) and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, for a lot of the reasons
you just listed. I have to imagine he had some influence because he
made a big splash in the SF community when Scanners came out. People
assumed at the time that it must be a master with a new pen name,
because it was just too good to be a first story. I wish I could read
that story again for the first time.
I also love the way Smith wrote as if you already knew a lot about the
background in which the story is set, even though he often hadn't
written it, or completely fleshed it out, yet. It just feels
different to read his work than other SF authors.
Matt Hughes
> I also love the way Smith wrote as if you already knew a lot about the
> background in which the story is set, even though he often hadn't
> written it, or completely fleshed it out, yet.
That's the effect I try for, and I may well have got it from
Cordwainer Smith. You're not writing a travelogue, with every detail
and nuance explained and explicated; it's more like you plunk the
reader down in the strange and new environment, and everything that
happens from there on in is perceived through the point of view of a
character who belongs in that environment -- and is too busy getting
on with his life to stop and give backgrounders.
It's like getting off the boat in some foreign society and having to
pick up a lot of what's going on from observation... which come to
think of it, is what happened to me when I was an eighteen year old
dropped into a northern Alberta Metis community and told to do
whatever I could in the way of community organizing. About time I was
reading Smith, and Jack Vance, who takes much the same approach.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
pmfan57
Yes, reading Vance sometimes gives a reader the same feeling.
Chuck C.
wrote:
> Eric Walker wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:01:10 +0530, tkmailers wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> >> Not directly related to your message, but mention of Bester
> >> triggered
> >> this. Are there many people here who think highly of Bester's work?
> >> Or was his appeal more to a certain generation, when his ideas were
> >> still new?
>
> >> I've read perhaps half a dozen of his short stories; "Adam & No
> >> Eve"
> >> was the only one that held interest.
>
> >> I've not read _Demolished Man_, but I found _The Stars My
> >> Destination_ pretty average.
>
> >> What am I missing?
>
> > whom
> > it may be said that they seemed as giants for they strode among
> > pygmies. (See Theodore Sturgeon, Phil Dick, &c &c.)
>
> You're aware that this is an idiosyncratic view. For most SF fans
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hear hear!
CC