Re: GRRM signing today
Blake Hyde
> After being asked about how he writes, he mentioned that his writing
> style is organic, unplanned, although he does have an ending in mind
> for the "Song".
That's what Robert Jordan said, back around book three or so.
> It's planned to go for 7 books,
> but he left the distinct impressioin it could and, based on past
> performance, probably will be longer.
Many fans will love this, I think. I don't. Ugh. I'm starting to
fear. Maybe doing an English degree (between the releases of ASOS and
AFFC!) ruined me for long-winded epic fantasy. That or reading Brust,
Kay, and _The Curse of Chalion_, which are all excellent, "epic," and,
perhaps most importantly, unbloated. (Except for the Paarfi novels, of
course, where the bloat is a feature rather than a bug. Nearly.)
>(There are also economic reasons
> for him to continue the series, a point that is not lost on a man who
> said at his signing he would prefer that people not lend his books to
> their friends but rather have them buy new copies.)
Did he actually say this?
adjust_expectations(-10);
>
> I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
> and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
> conflict, and when will it develop further? He was evasive and said
> that the title should tell me something....
The main conflict is pretty clear, I think: it's humanity versus the
Others. With most of humanity being too stupid to see that there's even
a conflict going on at that level. Tyrion does, and the Night's Watch,
and Stannis (poor fella).
> He alluded to the fact that
> this is a story about good vs. evil but that he eschews the dark lord
> vs. heroes trope and wants that conflict to be expressed internally in
> his characters.
The main problem I'm foreseeing here is that it's going to be hard to
make the primary conflict seem pivotal when most of the characters have
yet to be exposed to it. Either that or it will make the first three
books seem kind of stupid. (The war of kings didn't even matter?
Okay, so what was the point of writing it? Why not start where the
actual conflict began?)
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Blake Hyde <syr...@moc.liamg> wrote:
>
>
>JavaJosh wrote:
>
>>(There are also economic reasons
>> for him to continue the series, a point that is not lost on a man who
>> said at his signing he would prefer that people not lend his books to
>> their friends but rather have them buy new copies.)
>
>Did he actually say this?
>
>adjust_expectations(-10);
>
This is a pretty standard kind of thing for an author to say in a public
appearance to get a chuckle (and of course an author would rather sell
a lot of copies than less so, so there's an element of truth). I wouldn't
pay it a lot of attention.
Ted
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> After talking for a long time about matters important to him (but
> frankly, not to me) consisting of his early days and bad con
> experiences, he began to take questions. Interestingly a delegate from
> Elio was there with fully 12 questions. Martin spoke a little about
> Elio, and seemed a bit embarrased by his great attention. I personally
> felt it was feigned.
Sometimes I think he's concerned that one of the questions will catch him
out in an embarassing error. ;)
For my part, I'd rather know about the chronology of the events during
Robert's Rebellion than ... lets see what someone asked at a recent signing
... 'Would Brienne and Tyrion make a good couple?' or 'Who is your
favorite/least favorite character to write?' (A perennial favorite, that
last.)
> He took one question, and it was "When did Robert
> decide to take the throne?" There was a collective shaking of heads and
> face-in-the hand. (And if I have to explain why that happened then you
> wouldn't understand anyway).
The answer to this one seems to be interesting, from what I've been told.
Robert didn't initially proclaim for the throne at all and he may not have
done so until sometime around the Trident (not too clear on that last bit).
Since Jaime has said Robert did what he did for a crown, it's been assumed
that the claim to the throne was made very early to bolster the legitimacy
of the rebellion ... but, apparently not. It says something about the
rebellion, perhaps -- either they weren't really thinking of knocking over
the whole Targaryen dynasty to begin with, or they weren't really thinking
at all about the aftermath of the rebellion.
It also means that Robert's proclaiming for the throne wasn't a reason for
why Aerys demanded his head so early on.
> It's planned to go for 7 books,
> but he left the distinct impressioin it could and, based on past
> performance, probably will be longer. (There are also economic reasons
> for him to continue the series, a point that is not lost on a man who
> said at his signing he would prefer that people not lend his books to
> their friends but rather have them buy new copies.)
Isn't that last a rather standard joke on his part? I've heard it reported
it as such in previous signings, that it's pitched as a joke for the crowd.
Also, just to convey what someone else who was at the signing has said on
this: GRRM said that yes, it could take longer, but he'd prefer not. He'd
like to actually write other stuff than Westeros-set material some day.
In fact, I think at the signing the day before (I've got to get all these
reports put into the 'So Spake Martin' collection), he mentioned that he
hoped people would buy the reprints of his older work that Bantam were
putting out to prove that he has an audience outside of the Westeros
setting so he can more readily realize his hope. He made reference to
Donaldson's enormous success with Convenant and the way his audience
plummeted when he strayed from that. He'd like to have lots of Martin fans,
rather than Westeros fans.
--
[Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter]
"And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-"
"Yes?"
"I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_)
Mike Schilling
"Elio M. Garcia Jr." <el...@tele2.se> wrote in message
news:o66udz4t3dz5.1r...@40tude.net...
> In fact, I think at the signing the day before (I've got to get all these
> reports put into the 'So Spake Martin' collection), he mentioned that he
> hoped people would buy the reprints of his older work that Bantam were
> putting out to prove that he has an audience outside of the Westeros
> setting so he can more readily realize his hope. He made reference to
> Donaldson's enormous success with Convenant and the way his audience
> plummeted when he strayed from that. He'd like to have lots of Martin
> fans,
> rather than Westeros fans.
If you're referring to the Half Moon Bay signing, yes, he said all of those
things, including the fact that he hoped to finish ASoIaF in seven volumes
(direct quote: "That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.") He also alluded
to the fact that he could have stayed in Hollywood and made enormous amounts
of money writing scripts and treatments that would most likely never see the
light of day, but that he wanted to have readers. (Not unlike what LWE said
yesterday about not wanting to sell _The Spriggan Mirror_ to Tor if they
wouldn't publish it.)
Personal anecdote: while GRRM was signing my books, I mentioned to him that
I think of Tyrion as Miles Vorvosigan if he'd been raised by wolves. He
laughed, and then topped me with "No, raised by *lions*".
JavaJosh
Blake Hyde wrote:
> JavaJosh wrote:
> > After being asked about how he writes, he mentioned that his writing
> > style is organic, unplanned, although he does have an ending in mind
> > for the "Song".
>
> That's what Robert Jordan said, back around book three or so.
>
> > It's planned to go for 7 books,
> > but he left the distinct impressioin it could and, based on past
> > performance, probably will be longer.
>
> Many fans will love this, I think. I don't. Ugh. I'm starting to
> fear. Maybe doing an English degree (between the releases of ASOS and
> AFFC!) ruined me for long-winded epic fantasy. That or reading Brust,
> Kay, and _The Curse of Chalion_, which are all excellent, "epic," and,
> perhaps most importantly, unbloated. (Except for the Paarfi novels, of
> course, where the bloat is a feature rather than a bug. Nearly.)
>
> >(There are also economic reasons
> > for him to continue the series, a point that is not lost on a man who
> > said at his signing he would prefer that people not lend his books to
> > their friends but rather have them buy new copies.)
>
> Did he actually say this?
>
> adjust_expectations(-10);
Yes. It seemed like one of those things that he really meant, but
wouldn't mind people hearing it as a jest. Kind of like a racist joke.
> > I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
> > and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
> > conflict, and when will it develop further? He was evasive and said
> > that the title should tell me something....
>
> The main conflict is pretty clear, I think: it's humanity versus the
> Others. With most of humanity being too stupid to see that there's even
> a conflict going on at that level. Tyrion does, and the Night's Watch,
> and Stannis (poor fella).
Yes - that seems to be the most likely conflict. Dany will come back
with the fiery dragons, and rally Westeros against the Other's
invasion. The unfortunate part being that it reduces the content of the
series to all-but-irrelevance.
Frankly, I don't believe him when he said he knows how it's going to
end. I think he got lucky and is tickled pink by that fact, and doesn't
really care how or if the series ends. yes, this is a bad thing becaues
I think artists shoudl be motivated by the will to create, and not
anything else.
> > He alluded to the fact that
> > this is a story about good vs. evil but that he eschews the dark lord
> > vs. heroes trope and wants that conflict to be expressed internally in
> > his characters.
>
> The main problem I'm foreseeing here is that it's going to be hard to
> make the primary conflict seem pivotal when most of the characters have
> yet to be exposed to it. Either that or it will make the first three
> books seem kind of stupid. (The war of kings didn't even matter?
> Okay, so what was the point of writing it? Why not start where the
> actual conflict began?)
I tend to agree. While some build up is good, we are now on the 4th
book of build-up. And as I've said in other posts, the quality of that
build-up is waning.
Since I don't meet authors everyday, I thought it might be useful to
record my own impression of the man himself.
I hope I don't get lambasted for saying this, but seeing Martin in the
flesh my first reaction was not to like him. He's overwieght, and with
his beard and hat you might be tempted to call him jolly, especially
with Christmas approaching. But he's got these beedy black eyes that
don't evoke affection. From his mannerisms and speech he seems aloof,
obsessive and arrogant. From what I've read of authors this is not
entirely uncommon. If I had to guess this comes from the authorial
instinct to describe rather than act. He also reminds me strongly of
some very talented programmers that I know.
Perhaps there are two kinds of performers. There are those who love the
audience and that love is reflected back on themselves a hundred fold.
Then there are those who simply absorb all affection like a blackbody,
but radiating none (or rather radiating at a different frequency,
energy being conserved and all). In both cases the center of attention
enjoys basking in the glow. But the latter has to impress the audience
with some skill or ability to get the love, while the former does not.
Kurt Busiek
> Blake Hyde wrote:
>> JavaJosh wrote:
>>> (There are also economic reasons
>>> for him to continue the series, a point that is not lost on a man who
>>> said at his signing he would prefer that people not lend his books to
>>> their friends but rather have them buy new copies.)
>>
>> Did he actually say this?
>>
>> adjust_expectations(-10);
>
> Yes. It seemed like one of those things that he really meant, but
> wouldn't mind people hearing it as a jest. Kind of like a racist joke.
How many authors wouldn't prefer that every reader buys a new copy?
Heck, I'd prefer that they buy three or four.
I'm happy when someone discovers my work by being loaned something, or
getting it out of the library, and I'm glad when it happens, but would
I prefer all those people to buy new copies instead? Sure, why wouldn't
I?
I'd also prefer that people buy at least one of my books for every
Stephen King book they buy.
I don't expect it, or demand it...but prefer it? Sure, why wouldn't I?
kdb
--
Read an ASTRO CITY story for FREE, at:
http://www.dccomics.com/features/astro/
James Nicoll
JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Frankly, I don't believe him when he said he knows how it's going to
>end. I think he got lucky and is tickled pink by that fact, and doesn't
>really care how or if the series ends. yes, this is a bad thing becaues
>I think artists shoudl be motivated by the will to create, and not
>anything else.
curious addiction to living indoors.
Also, Martin has had personal experience with "The
critical darling that nearly kills an author's career". After
ARMAGEDDON RAG came out and sold poorly (despite being well
received by reviewes), he got no takers at all for BLACK AND
WHITE AND RED ALL OVER. His next published book was the fix-
up TUFF VOYAGING and it was around this time that he got into
screen writing.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
Mike Schilling
Maritn says he's almost finished with the third Dunkin' Egg story. Since
there won't be a third Legends anthology [1] , he's not sure where it will
be published.
1. The first one was one of the best-selling anthologies ever, and the
second did not do as well. Who would want to publish a series that's in
decline?
dre...@yahoo.com
>I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
>and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
>conflict, and when will it develop further?
Why should there be an 'overarching conflict' ?
Is there one when your read a history of 11th century Europe ?
The story of, say, Robb's rebellion is fascinating in and of itself.
dre...@yahoo.com
>I hope I don't get lambasted for saying this, but seeing Martin in the
>flesh my first reaction was not to like him. He's overwieght, and with
>his beard and hat you might be tempted to call him jolly, especially
>with Christmas approaching. But he's got these beedy black eyes that
>don't evoke affection. From his mannerisms and speech he seems aloof,
>obsessive and arrogant.
I've never harbored an inclination to meet an author.
All I care about Martin, is that he is healthy enough to keep writing.
erik....@gmail.com
David Dyer-Bennet
> On 19 Nov 2005 16:40:22 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
> >and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
> >conflict, and when will it develop further?
>
> Why should there be an 'overarching conflict' ?
> Is there one when your read a history of 11th century Europe ?
Fiction has requirements not present in history.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
Nancy Lebovitz
>flesh my first reaction was not to like him. He's overwieght, and with
>his beard and hat you might be tempted to call him jolly, especially
>with Christmas approaching. But he's got these beedy black eyes that
>don't evoke affection. From his mannerisms and speech he seems aloof,
You're expecting the author of ASoIaF to be genial?
>obsessive and arrogant. From what I've read of authors this is not
>entirely uncommon. If I had to guess this comes from the authorial
>instinct to describe rather than act. He also reminds me strongly of
>some very talented programmers that I know.
>
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Mike Schilling
"Nancy Lebovitz" <nan...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dltdem$rcc$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <1132523868.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I hope I don't get lambasted for saying this, but seeing Martin in the
>>flesh my first reaction was not to like him. He's overwieght, and with
>>his beard and hat you might be tempted to call him jolly, especially
>>with Christmas approaching. But he's got these beedy black eyes that
>>don't evoke affection. From his mannerisms and speech he seems aloof,
>
> You're expecting the author of ASoIaF to be genial?
I actually found him to be quite pleasant. [1]
1 Even before he laughed at one of my jokes.
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> "Nancy Lebovitz" <nan...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> You're expecting the author of ASoIaF to be genial?
>
> I actually found him to be quite pleasant. [1]
Seconded. He's struck me as quite gregarious the two times I've met him.
He laughs a lot -- definitely has a sense of humor (especially about
himself; I've heard he's told the Clifford the Big Red Dog story on tour)
and seems to enjoy himself.
There's a video interview with GRRM at Fast Forward TV
<http://fast-forward.tv/> for folks to see (also an audio-only version)
that's not half-bad, BTW (thanks to Cheryl Morgan at Emerald City for
pointing it out on her weblog).
dre...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>> Why should there be an 'overarching conflict' ?
>> Is there one when your read a history of 11th century Europe ?
>
>Fiction has requirements not present in history.
Traditions maybe, requirements not really.
How much of that applies to a serial body of work spanning tens of
thousands of pages and a few decades of writing - there's a different
question.
Blake Hyde
I can accept a lack of "overarching conflict" when it's in a body of
work such that there are "sub-resolutions." There aren't any, really,
in Martin's books.
Mike Schilling
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:23:20 GMT, Mike Schilling wrote:
>
>> "Nancy Lebovitz" <nan...@panix.com> wrote in message
>
>>> You're expecting the author of ASoIaF to be genial?
>>
>> I actually found him to be quite pleasant. [1]
>
> Seconded. He's struck me as quite gregarious the two times I've met him.
> He laughs a lot -- definitely has a sense of humor (especially about
> himself; I've heard he's told the Clifford the Big Red Dog story on tour)
[*]
KAdamR...@gmail.com
in the
flesh my first reaction was not to like him. He's overwieght, and with
his beard and hat you might be tempted to call him jolly, especially
with Christmas approaching. But he's got these beedy black eyes that
don't evoke affection. From his mannerisms and speech he seems aloof,
obsessive and arrogant. From what I've read of authors this is not
entirely uncommon. If I had to guess this comes from the authorial
instinct to describe rather than act. He also reminds me strongly of
Id have to say your description of the writer's attitude and mannerisms
are quite imaginary. I have met Mr Martin on a few occasions, and a
few of those were with a crowd of 10-15 people, and I found him to be
quite personable, witty, and charming.
r.r...@thevine.net
Lebovitz) wrote:
>In article <1132523868.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I hope I don't get lambasted for saying this, but seeing Martin in the
>>flesh my first reaction was not to like him. He's overwieght, and with
>>his beard and hat you might be tempted to call him jolly, especially
>>with Christmas approaching. But he's got these beedy black eyes that
>>don't evoke affection. From his mannerisms and speech he seems aloof,
>
>You're expecting the author of ASoIaF to be genial?
>
Actually, I really wonder what JavaJosh would have thought of him if
he had liked _Feast_. How much of the impression is accurate, how
much is projection? Has anyone ever done a psychology experiment on
this?
Rebecca
JavaJosh
> In article <1132523868.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Frankly, I don't believe him when he said he knows how it's going to
> >end. I think he got lucky and is tickled pink by that fact, and doesn't
> >really care how or if the series ends. yes, this is a bad thing becaues
> >I think artists shoudl be motivated by the will to create, and not
> >anything else.
>
> It's odd but virtually every writer I know has the most
> curious addiction to living indoors.
Of course. But that cannot be the primary motivation, or even a very
strong one, or else the work will stink.
> Also, Martin has had personal experience with "The
> critical darling that nearly kills an author's career". After
> ARMAGEDDON RAG came out and sold poorly (despite being well
> received by reviewes), he got no takers at all for BLACK AND
> WHITE AND RED ALL OVER. His next published book was the fix-
> up TUFF VOYAGING and it was around this time that he got into
> screen writing.
I'm sorry to hear that. But he has a lot of momentum with _Song_ and he
can use that to write a great book. If _Feast_ was truly an attempt to
do that, then kudos. However it felt more like the dying gasp of the
creative spirit, driven to conclusion by nothing more than economic
necessity. Better to let the series end prematurely than revive it to
live a pointless life (there is a parallel to Catelyn Stark's
character, come to think of it...).
Hopefully he will find his muse and enjoy working on this series for
its own sake. If he does not reach that point he'd do well to stop
writing the series!
JavaJosh
Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
> In article <1132523868.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >I hope I don't get lambasted for saying this, but seeing Martin in the
> >flesh my first reaction was not to like him. He's overwieght, and with
> >his beard and hat you might be tempted to call him jolly, especially
> >with Christmas approaching. But he's got these beedy black eyes that
> >don't evoke affection. From his mannerisms and speech he seems aloof,
>
> You're expecting the author of ASoIaF to be genial?
Well, I thought it was possible. But he did kind of creep me out. They
say that an author experiences 100 times more of the world they create
than the reader, and to live in a world as brutal, cruel, and, to be
frank, perverted as Westeros comes from somewhere in the man.
JavaJosh
Elio M. Garcia Jr. wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:23:20 GMT, Mike Schilling wrote:
>
> > "Nancy Lebovitz" <nan...@panix.com> wrote in message
>
> >> You're expecting the author of ASoIaF to be genial?
> >
> > I actually found him to be quite pleasant. [1]
>
> Seconded.
Oh, don't get me wrong he really seems to enjoy the attention and
smiles and laughs occasionally. But there is an alienated geeky
defensiveness that's hard to put your finger on, always there. It comes
through in the rather self-absorbed monologue, or the not-quite-jovial
laugh at a joke about money. Or the dismissive attitude toward stupid
questions.
JavaJosh
This crossed my mind, of course. They say that the first thing you
learn in Lit Crit college courses is to seperate the author from her
work. But remember that I *liked* the first 3 books quite a lot, so the
balance of my regard was (and still is) positive. In fact, I was
prepared to like _Feast_ more based on this experience - perhaps I
would gain an insight that would deepen my appreciation of the story,
or the story behind the story. This did not, alas, come to pass.
In fact, I even liked the look of Martin before I sat down in the 2nd
row and really started watching him. It's those eyes.
>
> Rebecca
Mike Schilling
"JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132645053....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Honestly now: if this had been a signing of Storm of Swords five years ago,
and he'd acted identically, what would your opinion have been?
JavaJosh
You could be right! Perhaps he felt uncomfortable around almost 300
fans. Perhaps he was puffed up a bit by the experience, and that was
going to pass. Perhaps he was just nervious and what I saw was a
misinterpretation of that. It's all possible, and since I didn't see
him but for 20 minutes it may even be probable. But I do know what my
first impression was.
JavaJosh
Elio M. Garcia Jr. wrote:
>
> > After talking for a long time about matters important to him (but
> > frankly, not to me) consisting of his early days and bad con
> > experiences, he began to take questions. Interestingly a delegate from
> > Elio was there with fully 12 questions. Martin spoke a little about
> > Elio, and seemed a bit embarrased by his great attention. I personally
> > felt it was feigned.
>
> Sometimes I think he's concerned that one of the questions will catch him
> out in an embarassing error. ;)
That may be. He also said that he is not the type of author to build a
pyramid and then just show the top (like Tolkien) but rather, he'll
show you the top of the iceburg and imply the body, when it doesn't
exist. Asking questions about the body of the iceburg then is like
poking behind the magicians curtain - uncomfortable for the magician
and potentially dangeous for the poker. :)
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <1132523868.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Frankly, I don't believe him when he said he knows how it's going to
>> >end. I think he got lucky and is tickled pink by that fact, and doesn't
>> >really care how or if the series ends. yes, this is a bad thing becaues
>> >I think artists shoudl be motivated by the will to create, and not
>> >anything else.
>>
>> It's odd but virtually every writer I know has the most
>> curious addiction to living indoors.
>
>Of course. But that cannot be the primary motivation, or even a very
>strong one, or else the work will stink.
Oh? Why do you think that?
--
Read the latest Ethshar novel online! http://www.ethshar.com/thesprigganexperiment0.html
JavaJosh
dre...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 19 Nov 2005 16:40:22 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
> >and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
> >conflict, and when will it develop further?
>
> Why should there be an 'overarching conflict' ?
Quite simply because it is not only expected in the epic fantasy genre,
but it is strongly implied in many parts of "Song" itself. In the first
place, consider the title. There are "icey" elements and their are
"fiery" elements, but they are still very far from being in direct
conflict. It is still not clear how the direwolves fit into anything,
and in fact they have been completely ignored. The Stark children
themselves have lapsed into irrelevance to the larger plot, unthinkable
to someone who has read the first 2 books.
It is implied that something is happening which hasn't happened for a
VERY long time. The Winters always last for years, and this winter is
bringing an ancient evil (the Others). Who will defeat them, and how?
Dany's fiery dragons? The Stark children and their direwolves? Will
there be a Westeros to oppose the Others because of incessant civil
war? What of the Asshai prophecy and the comet?
I am happy to keep these questions unanswered for a time (indeed, I
demand it), but progress should be made in answering them with every
book. Once progress ceases to be made, then the work is a failure.
_Feast_ contributes to none of those questions, save the one about
civil war, and then only obliquely.
> Is there one when your read a history of 11th century Europe ?
No, and I don't see what that has to do with "Song". (Marx saw a
conflict, however!)
> The story of, say, Robb's rebellion is fascinating in and of itself.
As is the journey of Bran, the ascendency of Jon, and the tutelage of
Arya. But without an overarching conflict these are collections of
related short-stories, not the chapters of an epic novel.
JavaJosh
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On 21 Nov 2005 23:32:55 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >James Nicoll wrote:
> >> In article <1132523868.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Frankly, I don't believe him when he said he knows how it's going to
> >> >end. I think he got lucky and is tickled pink by that fact, and doesn't
> >> >really care how or if the series ends. yes, this is a bad thing becaues
> >> >I think artists shoudl be motivated by the will to create, and not
> >> >anything else.
> >>
> >> It's odd but virtually every writer I know has the most
> >> curious addiction to living indoors.
> >
> >Of course. But that cannot be the primary motivation, or even a very
> >strong one, or else the work will stink.
>
> Oh? Why do you think that?
I defer to Viriginia Woolf ( _A Room of One's Own_) on that one.
JavaJosh
Loan me your time machine, Mike, and I'll answer unequivocally!
Of course, I don't know the answer to that. But I will say that I don't
have super-strong opinions about people very often, but when I do I
listen. I can't be sure my opinion of the man wasn't colored by my
opinion of the book.
JavaJosh
JavaJosh wrote:
> dre...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On 19 Nov 2005 16:40:22 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
> > >and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
> > >conflict, and when will it develop further?
> >
> > Why should there be an 'overarching conflict' ?
>
> Quite simply because it is not only expected in the epic fantasy genre,
> but it is strongly implied in many parts of "Song" itself. In the first
> place, consider the title. There are "icey" elements and their are
> "fiery" elements, but they are still very far from being in direct
> conflict. It is still not clear how the direwolves fit into anything,
> and in fact they have been completely ignored. The Stark children
> themselves have lapsed into irrelevance to the larger plot, unthinkable
> to someone who has read the first 2 books.
I should also say that Martin's revelation that he writes "organically"
without a plan doesn't help. If there really is no iceberg under the
surface, then this increases the risk that either the books won't get
finished at all or (more likely) they'll just be really really bad.
Christopher Adams
>
> Well, I thought it was possible. But he did kind of creep me out. They
> say that an author experiences 100 times more of the world they create
> than the reader, and to live in a world as brutal, cruel, and, to be
> frank, perverted as Westeros comes from somewhere in the man.
Are you Wolfspawn, now?
--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
The question is whether it's pathological for a dropped egg to fall.
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigeclasslist.html
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatelist.html
Nancy Lebovitz
JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I'm sorry to hear that. But he has a lot of momentum with _Song_ and he
>can use that to write a great book. If _Feast_ was truly an attempt to
>do that, then kudos. However it felt more like the dying gasp of the
>creative spirit, driven to conclusion by nothing more than economic
>necessity. Better to let the series end prematurely than revive it to
>live a pointless life (there is a parallel to Catelyn Stark's
>character, come to think of it...).
My impression (from the prologue and approximately two chapters) is that
something's gone wrong, but I don't think it's commercialism.
The prologue was at least a story, though kind of long-winded and with
an unduly depressing ending. (If anyone wants to tell me what was
actually going on at the end there (with spoiler space) please do.)
The first chapter or so (maybe they were character sections, not chapters)
was incoherent. He did a brilliant job in the first books of getting
me the information I needed to follow what was going on. In this, it seemed
like a lot of names with no context.
Then there was the Iron Islands(?) section. It started well, with the
drowning--and then got excessively repetitious.
Long about then, I realized I wasn't having fun, and went downstairs (I
was at a Barnes and Noble) and read a New Yorker article about malpractice.
When malpractice is more interesting than a fantasy novel, there may be
something wrong with the novel.
My tentative thought is that the first books were carefully editted, and
this one is more like a second draft.
I suspect the problem is more that it was hurried into print than that
Martin has stopped caring. That's a commerical (or possibly contractual)
consideration, but not exactly the same as only caring about money.
dre...@yahoo.com
>Quite simply because it is not only expected in the epic fantasy genre,
>but it is strongly implied in many parts of "Song" itself. In the first
>place, consider the title.
The title involves marketing decisions.
>There are "icey" elements and their are
>"fiery" elements, but they are still very far from being in direct
>conflict. It is still not clear how the direwolves fit into anything,
>and in fact they have been completely ignored.
> The Stark children
>themselves have lapsed into irrelevance to the larger plot, unthinkable
>to someone who has read the first 2 books.
The children and their wolves have scattered. That doesn't make them
irrelevant or anything.
>It is implied that something is happening which hasn't happened for a
>VERY long time. The Winters always last for years, and this winter is
>bringing an ancient evil (the Others).
The Others could well be a diversion for something else.
>Who will defeat them, and how?
>Dany's fiery dragons?
Since that's what people expect, it's probably not going to happen.
dre...@yahoo.com
>Well, I thought it was possible. But he did kind of creep me out. They
>say that an author experiences 100 times more of the world they create
>than the reader, and to live in a world as brutal, cruel, and, to be
>frank, perverted as Westeros comes from somewhere in the man.
So people who write about extermination camps are what ?
r.r...@thevine.net
>
>dre...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 19 Nov 2005 16:40:22 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
>> >and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
>> >conflict, and when will it develop further?
>>
>> Why should there be an 'overarching conflict' ?
>
>Quite simply because it is not only expected in the epic fantasy genre,
>but it is strongly implied in many parts of "Song" itself. In the first
>place, consider the title. There are "icey" elements and their are
>"fiery" elements, but they are still very far from being in direct
>conflict.
The series title is A Song of Ice and Fire. That does not, in and of
itself, imply a conflict. I could (if I had any skill at this, which
I don't) write a very nice song about the way a flickering campfire
brings life to the snow and ice surrounding it, for example.
> It is still not clear how the direwolves fit into anything,
>and in fact they have been completely ignored. The Stark children
>themselves have lapsed into irrelevance to the larger plot, unthinkable
>to someone who has read the first 2 books.
>
The direwolves are, as far as I can tell, largely symbolic of the
states of the children. Arya's is a fierce, wild pack leader. Robb
should have known enough to listen to his. Etc. They were needed to
start the story, but I don't quite feel that they are integral parts
of it.
>It is implied that something is happening which hasn't happened for a
>VERY long time. The Winters always last for years, and this winter is
>bringing an ancient evil (the Others). Who will defeat them, and how?
>Dany's fiery dragons? The Stark children and their direwolves? Will
>there be a Westeros to oppose the Others because of incessant civil
>war? What of the Asshai prophecy and the comet?
>
As a point of clarification, it is not quite a given that the Others
are indeed evil. Nasty, yes. Different, yes. But what we have seen
of them may not be any different than judging all of humanity by
Gregor.
>I am happy to keep these questions unanswered for a time (indeed, I
>demand it), but progress should be made in answering them with every
>book. Once progress ceases to be made, then the work is a failure.
>_Feast_ contributes to none of those questions, save the one about
>civil war, and then only obliquely.
>
Hmm. I think that you and I have a different idea of "progress".
Character growth and development can be progress, independent of any
overarching conflict.
>> Is there one when your read a history of 11th century Europe ?
>
>No, and I don't see what that has to do with "Song". (Marx saw a
>conflict, however!)
>
>> The story of, say, Robb's rebellion is fascinating in and of itself.
>
>As is the journey of Bran, the ascendency of Jon, and the tutelage of
>Arya. But without an overarching conflict these are collections of
>related short-stories, not the chapters of an epic novel.
What is your definition of an "epic novel"? It may be that I think of
the category differently than you do.
Rebecca
JavaJosh
> On 21 Nov 2005 23:58:06 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >dre...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On 19 Nov 2005 16:40:22 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
> >> >and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
> >> >conflict, and when will it develop further?
> >>
> >> Why should there be an 'overarching conflict' ?
> >
> >Quite simply because it is not only expected in the epic fantasy genre,
> >but it is strongly implied in many parts of "Song" itself. In the first
> >place, consider the title. There are "icey" elements and their are
> >"fiery" elements, but they are still very far from being in direct
> >conflict.
>
> The series title is A Song of Ice and Fire. That does not, in and of
> itself, imply a conflict. I could (if I had any skill at this, which
> I don't) write a very nice song about the way a flickering campfire
> brings life to the snow and ice surrounding it, for example.
If it was called "A Song of Sin and Redemption" than I might accept the
work as a success as it stands (although I'd be concerned that there is
much more sin than redemption!). To me, it is quite obvious that Martin
*has* an overarching conflict in mind. To assert that he does not
suprises me! Perhaps he just wants the reader to *think* there is a
larger conflict, and the prophecy stuff and the Others activity and the
direwolves and the dragons are all just coincidences. Or maybe they all
wake up one day and realize they've been living in VR.
My assertion that there is an overarching conflict, just one that's not
been fleshed out properly, is also supported by some meta-information.
In particular, that Martin planned a 5 year gap. My guess is that he
wanted to let Dany and the Stark children grow up and bring the reader
to the main action of the novel, which is essentially a battle with
Others on one side and Dragons on the other, quite probably with some
good others and some evil dragons.
> > It is still not clear how the direwolves fit into anything,
> >and in fact they have been completely ignored. The Stark children
> >themselves have lapsed into irrelevance to the larger plot, unthinkable
> >to someone who has read the first 2 books.
> >
>
> The direwolves are, as far as I can tell, largely symbolic of the
> states of the children. Arya's is a fierce, wild pack leader. Robb
> should have known enough to listen to his. Etc. They were needed to
> start the story, but I don't quite feel that they are integral parts
> of it.
Again, that's possible but it would be *bad writing*. I for one hope
that they are simply put aside until they're needed again.
> >I am happy to keep these questions unanswered for a time (indeed, I
> >demand it), but progress should be made in answering them with every
> >book. Once progress ceases to be made, then the work is a failure.
> >_Feast_ contributes to none of those questions, save the one about
> >civil war, and then only obliquely.
> >
> Hmm. I think that you and I have a different idea of "progress".
> Character growth and development can be progress, independent of any
> overarching conflict.
I think rather I'm using the term progress in a very specific way,
while you are taking the more general meaning. Stories are many-faceted
things, and progress is made on several levels all at once. At some
points progress in one respect stalls while progress is made in another
facet. But always some progress is being made. What types of progress
are these? Well...advancing the plot, character changes, fleshing out
the characters, strengthening the theme, fleshing out the setting,
improving the readers understanding of some point....
Even in your narrow interpretation, I take exception: _Feast_ did not
show any character changes. It did flesh out some characters in a minor
way, but this was neither significant nor were the characters so
treated particularly interesting. Did we learn that Cersei has a secret
love for puppies that makes her more sympathetic? Or that she harbors a
fascination with sealions and yearns to be a mermaid? No - we learn
that she is a stupid, evil bitch, something which was driven home in
book 1. Did Brienne reveal that, although a basically good person,
harbors a hatred for something? Or that she is anything but a cardboard
cutout character, which was fine in the last book since her status was
not that of a viewpoint character? Did we learn anything about Sansa
other than the fact that she is slightly more intelligent than we might
have thought before? Did we learn that Arya is anything other than a
little girl twisted by rage? No. All of these characters were
wonderfully changed in previous books, and remain stuck in amber in
this book.
No progress was made in any of the facets I mention. This book was a
dismal failure, a book that Robert Jordan would have been proud to
write.
David Bilek
>In article <1132644775....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>JavaJosh <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I'm sorry to hear that. But he has a lot of momentum with _Song_ and he
>>can use that to write a great book. If _Feast_ was truly an attempt to
>>do that, then kudos. However it felt more like the dying gasp of the
>>creative spirit, driven to conclusion by nothing more than economic
>>necessity. Better to let the series end prematurely than revive it to
>>live a pointless life (there is a parallel to Catelyn Stark's
>>character, come to think of it...).
>
>My impression (from the prologue and approximately two chapters) is that
>something's gone wrong, but I don't think it's commercialism.
No, not commercialism. There are large swaths of _A Feast for Crows_
that could form the nucleus of a book just as good as the previous
works.
>
>The prologue was at least a story, though kind of long-winded and with
>an unduly depressing ending. (If anyone wants to tell me what was
>actually going on at the end there (with spoiler space) please do.)
I'll answer this at the end since there are spoilers.
>
>The first chapter or so (maybe they were character sections, not chapters)
>was incoherent. He did a brilliant job in the first books of getting
>me the information I needed to follow what was going on. In this, it seemed
>like a lot of names with no context.
>
>Then there was the Iron Islands(?) section. It started well, with the
>drowning--and then got excessively repetitious.
>
>Long about then, I realized I wasn't having fun, and went downstairs (I
>was at a Barnes and Noble) and read a New Yorker article about malpractice.
>When malpractice is more interesting than a fantasy novel, there may be
>something wrong with the novel.
>
>My tentative thought is that the first books were carefully editted, and
>this one is more like a second draft.
>
>I suspect the problem is more that it was hurried into print than that
>Martin has stopped caring. That's a commerical (or possibly contractual)
>consideration, but not exactly the same as only caring about money.
Yes, exactly. AFFC is Martin as published by Baen books. Martin had
his back against the wall, got desperate because he hadn't published a
new book in almost 5 years, threw up his hands in surrender and
chopped a first or second draft in half to shovel it out the door.
He needed to finish this part of the story and carefully edit it to
balance the character point of views. Having brand new POVs make up
two thirds or three quarters of the book simply didn't work. Brienne,
Cersei, Dorne, and the Iron Islands were too much.
Anyway, as to your question....
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Most likely Pate was killed and replaced by a Faceless Man, probably
Jaqen Ha'whatever, Arya's "friend". The descriptions are pretty
close.
-David
Nancy Lebovitz
David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>nan...@panix.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>>In article <1132644775....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>an unduly depressing ending. (If anyone wants to tell me what was
>>actually going on at the end there (with spoiler space) please do.)
>
>I'll answer this at the end since there are spoilers.
>
>>The first chapter or so (maybe they were character sections, not chapters)
>>was incoherent. He did a brilliant job in the first books of getting
>>me the information I needed to follow what was going on. In this, it seemed
>>like a lot of names with no context.
>>
>>
>>My tentative thought is that the first books were carefully editted, and
>>this one is more like a second draft.
>>
>>I suspect the problem is more that it was hurried into print than that
>>Martin has stopped caring. That's a commerical (or possibly contractual)
>>consideration, but not exactly the same as only caring about money.
>
>Yes, exactly. AFFC is Martin as published by Baen books. Martin had
>his back against the wall, got desperate because he hadn't published a
>new book in almost 5 years, threw up his hands in surrender and
>chopped a first or second draft in half to shovel it out the door.
>
>He needed to finish this part of the story and carefully edit it to
>balance the character point of views. Having brand new POVs make up
>two thirds or three quarters of the book simply didn't work. Brienne,
I don't think the newness of the POVs is all that crucial. After all,
the other characters were new POVs once upon a time.
The problem is that the new POVs weren't interesting enough. And, as
I said, he didn't polish way information what handed out.
>Cersei, Dorne, and the Iron Islands were too much.
>
>Anyway, as to your question....
>
>
>SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
>
>
>Most likely Pate was killed and replaced by a Faceless Man, probably
>Jaqen Ha'whatever, Arya's "friend". The descriptions are pretty
>close.
Ok, so the bit about the cobbles coming up to hit him wasn't literal.
Thomas Lindgren
r.r...@thevine.net writes:
> On 21 Nov 2005 23:58:06 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >dre...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On 19 Nov 2005 16:40:22 -0800, "JavaJosh" <java...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >I had a few questions, most of them rather pointed and antagonistic,
> >> >and limited myself to one and something nicer: What is the overarching
> >> >conflict, and when will it develop further?
> >>
> >> Why should there be an 'overarching conflict' ?
> >
> >Quite simply because it is not only expected in the epic fantasy genre,
> >but it is strongly implied in many parts of "Song" itself. In the first
> >place, consider the title. There are "icey" elements and their are
> >"fiery" elements, but they are still very far from being in direct
> >conflict.
>
> The series title is A Song of Ice and Fire. That does not, in and of
> itself, imply a conflict. I could (if I had any skill at this, which
> I don't) write a very nice song about the way a flickering campfire
> brings life to the snow and ice surrounding it, for example.
Martin cocking a snook at his readers? Well, let me in that case
propose how the series should end, last page:
Cersei wakes up from an extended, unpleasant midday dream (towards the
end mainly fixated on a flickering campfire on a plain of ice) and
kisses her dear and mildly concerned Targaryen husband. All it was,
was prunes. Bad prunes, served by that unsatisfactory serving woman,
Catelyn.
Outside, you can hear the children playing with Uncle Jamie and Uncle
Petyr while Grandpa Tyrion, dearest papa, nods off in a chair. Music
swells; all is well with the world. Thank you for reading.
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> I should also say that Martin's revelation that he writes "organically"
> without a plan doesn't help. If there really is no iceberg under the
> surface, then this increases the risk that either the books won't get
> finished at all or (more likely) they'll just be really really bad.
This has me worried as well, I really can't see how such a huge series can
be written without a lot of planning. As a point of comparison Steven
Erikson is completely the opposite, his Malazan series appears to be
completely mapped out with him knowing exactly what is going to occur in
each of the 10 books.
--
You Can't Stop The Signal
David Bilek
>In article <v897o15lq8vmd22s3...@4ax.com>,
>David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>nan...@panix.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
...
>>>
>>>I suspect the problem is more that it was hurried into print than that
>>>Martin has stopped caring. That's a commerical (or possibly contractual)
>>>consideration, but not exactly the same as only caring about money.
>>
>>Yes, exactly. AFFC is Martin as published by Baen books. Martin had
>>his back against the wall, got desperate because he hadn't published a
>>new book in almost 5 years, threw up his hands in surrender and
>>chopped a first or second draft in half to shovel it out the door.
>>
>>He needed to finish this part of the story and carefully edit it to
>>balance the character point of views. Having brand new POVs make up
>>two thirds or three quarters of the book simply didn't work. Brienne,
>
>I don't think the newness of the POVs is all that crucial. After all,
>the other characters were new POVs once upon a time.
But, apart from the first book for obvious reasons, they were
introduced gradually. POVs fell out (one in particular) as the
character died and new ones were brought in to replace them in a
flowing manner. The abrupt replacement in volume 4 jars intensely.
Perhaps I'll go back and figure out how many of the POVs in volumes 2
and 3 had POV chapters in the previous book. By chapter or page
count.
>
>The problem is that the new POVs weren't interesting enough. And, as
>I said, he didn't polish way information what handed out.
>
>>Cersei, Dorne, and the Iron Islands were too much.
>>
>>Anyway, as to your question....
>>
>>
>>SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
>>
>>
>>Most likely Pate was killed and replaced by a Faceless Man, probably
>>Jaqen Ha'whatever, Arya's "friend". The descriptions are pretty
>>close.
>
>Ok, so the bit about the cobbles coming up to hit him wasn't literal.
Heh. "Her eyes fell out of her head."
I believe the cobbles thing was just a description of Pate falling
over, dead.
-David
Gene Ward Smith
JavaJosh wrote:
> I should also say that Martin's revelation that he writes "organically"
> without a plan doesn't help. If there really is no iceberg under the
> surface, then this increases the risk that either the books won't get
> finished at all or (more likely) they'll just be really really bad.
Geez, a few months ago Martin was the greatest fantasist since Tokien,
and his work was going to be read by English majors 100 years from now.
Suddenly, he's the new Jordan, and you are no longer a complete moron
if you don't much like Ice&Fire.
Mike Schilling
"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote in message
news:1132716450.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I don't think that was Josh, was it?
Anyway, I was very surprised to learn that GRRM keeps the details in his
head with only (exact quote, IIRC) "a few charts" of written material.
There is so much to keep track of.
dre...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>Geez, a few months ago Martin was the greatest fantasist since Tokien,
>and his work was going to be read by English majors 100 years from now.
>Suddenly, he's the new Jordan, and you are no longer a complete moron
>if you don't much like Ice&Fire.
His books don't stand alone.
Most complaints about AFFC per se will be irrelevant 25 years from
now.
Mike Schilling
<dre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cfq7o1d4rooq14dvs...@4ax.com...
Very true. Since this is a series I expect to reread more than once, the
impression the individual books make when the series is still incomplete is
not all that important to me. And many of the current complaints may be
irrelevant a year from now, when A Dance With Dragons is slated to come out.
JavaJosh
That doesn't sound like something I would say, Gene. I would never call
someone a moron for not liking Song (or anything else). Different
strokes, after all.
JavaJosh
Oh my. You have successfully enacted my worst "Song" fear.
Mike Schilling
>
> Thomas Lindgren wrote:
>>
>> Cersei wakes up from an extended, unpleasant midday dream (towards the
>> end mainly fixated on a flickering campfire on a plain of ice) and
>> kisses her dear and mildly concerned Targaryen husband. All it was,
>> was prunes. Bad prunes, served by that unsatisfactory serving woman,
>> Catelyn.
>>
>> Outside, you can hear the children playing with Uncle Jamie and Uncle
>> Petyr while Grandpa Tyrion, dearest papa, nods off in a chair. Music
>> swells; all is well with the world. Thank you for reading.
>
> Oh my. You have successfully enacted my worst "Song" fear.
He's also described the last episode of Saint Elsewhere.
Gene Ward Smith
JavaJosh wrote:
> Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> > Geez, a few months ago Martin was the greatest fantasist since Tokien,
> > and his work was going to be read by English majors 100 years from now.
> > Suddenly, he's the new Jordan, and you are no longer a complete moron
> > if you don't much like Ice&Fire.
>
> That doesn't sound like something I would say, Gene. I would never call
> someone a moron for not liking Song (or anything else). Different
> strokes, after all.
We had a fun flame war a while back when another Martin advocate
suggested people who don't like Ice&Fire are gutless morons who can
only be happy when reading about sweetness, light, and cute telepathic
ponies with big blue eyes. Macho tough guys, guys who can take it, guys
with IQs above the boiling point of water in degrees C, these kind of
guys are able to read Martin, making them morally and intellectually
superior, a breed apart from the common herd.
But now, alas, we will need to find another author who can separate the
carniverous horses from the telepathic ponies.
JavaJosh
> JavaJosh wrote:
> > Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
> > > Geez, a few months ago Martin was the greatest fantasist since Tokien,
> > > and his work was going to be read by English majors 100 years from now.
> > > Suddenly, he's the new Jordan, and you are no longer a complete moron
> > > if you don't much like Ice&Fire.
> >
> > That doesn't sound like something I would say, Gene. I would never call
> > someone a moron for not liking Song (or anything else). Different
> > strokes, after all.
>
> We had a fun flame war a while back when another Martin advocate
> suggested people who don't like Ice&Fire are gutless morons who can
> only be happy when reading about sweetness, light, and cute telepathic
> ponies with big blue eyes. Macho tough guys, guys who can take it, guys
> with IQs above the boiling point of water in degrees C, these kind of
> guys are able to read Martin, making them morally and intellectually
> superior, a breed apart from the common herd.
Song is like the fantasy version of "Saving Private Ryan" - gritty,
real, shocking (at first), human. But it's not overly intelligent -
there just isn't a lot of depth, just a lot of unanswered questions and
morally ambiguous characters doing nothing to answer them. :)
Come to think of it, the new HBO series "Rome" reminds me of ASOIAF a
lot - it's got the same sort of "this was a cruder time where men were
men and you want to deny it but you like it, don't you?" sort of feel.
> But now, alas, we will need to find another author who can separate the
> carniverous horses from the telepathic ponies.
Obviously. But its not enough to be merely intelligent - many genre
authors write intelligent work. It must also be...macho. It must have
blood. Lots of blood. And sex too. Lots of hot hetero sex, with a good
dose of raping. And a dash of light lesbo action (but nothing too
lesbo, just some light stuff). They should also encourage racous
drinking, wenching, and the occasional beating of a peasent (a useful
catharsis for the stressed-out noble).
The problem is that the candidates all fail in one respect or another.
There's lots of blood in Pournelle, but no sex. There's lots of sex in
Heinlien, but its too gay and there's not enough rape. Sex and violence
appear in Bujold, but a) a *woman* couldn't possibly hold the title of
"Macho Man Maker" and b) her stuff isn't cruel enough. John Varley has
plenty of sex but isn't very intelligent, not enough violence, and the
sex is WAY too gay.
Really, Martin stands alone.
Gene Ward Smith
JavaJosh wrote:
> Obviously. But its not enough to be merely intelligent - many genre
> authors write intelligent work. It must also be...macho. It must have
> blood. Lots of blood. And sex too. Lots of hot hetero sex, with a good
> dose of raping.
Didn't Martin invent Dr. Tachyon and Haviland Tuf? I like him better in
that mode.
David Bilek
>> Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
>> > Geez, a few months ago Martin was the greatest fantasist since Tokien,
>> > and his work was going to be read by English majors 100 years from now.
>> > Suddenly, he's the new Jordan, and you are no longer a complete moron
>> > if you don't much like Ice&Fire.
>>
>> That doesn't sound like something I would say, Gene. I would never call
>> someone a moron for not liking Song (or anything else). Different
>> strokes, after all.
>
>We had a fun flame war a while back when another Martin advocate
>suggested people who don't like Ice&Fire are gutless morons who can
>only be happy when reading about sweetness, light, and cute telepathic
>ponies with big blue eyes. Macho tough guys, guys who can take it, guys
>with IQs above the boiling point of water in degrees C, these kind of
>guys are able to read Martin, making them morally and intellectually
>superior, a breed apart from the common herd.
>
Your reading comprehension needs some calibration. Needed, anyway.
Was this in the review before or after the one where I compared the
bloat in Tad Williams' novels to Alexandre Kareline?
-David
dre...@yahoo.com
>Sex and violence
>appear in Bujold
In the 1960s Hollywood method.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> But now, alas, we will need to find another author who can separate the
> carniverous horses from the telepathic ponies.
If this is all that you want, Martin still works.
For gritty authors still in control of their story, I'd recommend
Robin Hobb and Steven Erikson.
ObCarnivorousHorsie:
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/cgi-bin/ggmain.cgi?date=20050404
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gae...@aol.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll
dre...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>Yes, exactly. AFFC is Martin as published by Baen books. Martin had
>his back against the wall, got desperate because he hadn't published a
>new book in almost 5 years, threw up his hands in surrender and
>chopped a first or second draft in half to shovel it out the door.
Publishing Arms of the Kraken a couple of years before may have tied
his hands, in that he couldn't omit any of that from AFFC.
Joe Pfeiffer
>
> For gritty authors still in control of their story, I'd recommend
> Robin Hobb and Steven Erikson.
I'm afraid the ending of "Fool's Fate" sort of soured me on Robb...
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
skype: jjpfeifferjr
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >
> > For gritty authors still in control of their story, I'd recommend
> > Robin Hobb and Steven Erikson.
>
> I'm afraid the ending of "Fool's Fate" sort of soured me on Robb...
Yeah, that was a bit of a shock. OTOH, a lot of readers criticized
her for *not* doing that in _Assassin's Quest_.
David Bilek
>Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>
>> For gritty authors still in control of their story, I'd recommend
>> Robin Hobb and Steven Erikson.
>
>I'm afraid the ending of "Fool's Fate" sort of soured me on Robb...
What didn't you care for about it? I thought it was rather poignant.
-David
Thomas Lindgren
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:
> He's also described the last episode of Saint Elsewhere.
That's a TV series, isn't it? Haven't seen it, I'm afraid, but it
sounds like a Dallas-level classic.
Alternate ending (bear with me): "And then the sun went nova. After
which a really big lump of ice smashed into the remains, causing a
huge electromagnetic storm. For those listening on the radio, it was A
Song of Ice and Fire."
Best,
Mike Schilling
"Thomas Lindgren" <***********@*****.***> wrote in message
news:m3fyplo...@localhost.localdomain...
>
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> He's also described the last episode of Saint Elsewhere.
>
> That's a TV series, isn't it? Haven't seen it, I'm afraid, but it
> sounds like a Dallas-level classic.
It's weirder than that. St. Elsewhere was a medical show that had
continuing storylines as well as diseases of the week (sort of a less
frenetic E.R.). The main character was an almost saint-like doctor played
by Ed Flanders [1], who, in addition to being a compassionate healer, was a
single father raising an autistic son.
After about five years of this came the last episode, at the end of which we
meet a working-class family played by Flanders and some of the other cast
members, who also have an autistic child. He spends much of his days
staring into his favorite toy, a snow globe containing a building that looks
exactly like the St. Elsewhere hospital. His family wonders what he might
be imagining when he looks into it.
1. I presume that the ridiculously wholesome Ned Flanders got his name from
this portrayal.
Barmor
JavaJosh wrote:
> Elio M. Garcia Jr. wrote:
> > On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:23:20 GMT, Mike Schilling wrote:
> >
> > > "Nancy Lebovitz" <nan...@panix.com> wrote in message
> >
> > >> You're expecting the author of ASoIaF to be genial?
> > >
> > > I actually found him to be quite pleasant. [1]
> >
> > Seconded.
>
> Oh, don't get me wrong he really seems to enjoy the attention and
> smiles and laughs occasionally. But there is an alienated geeky
> defensiveness that's hard to put your finger on, always there. It comes
> through in the rather self-absorbed monologue, or the not-quite-jovial
> laugh at a joke about money. Or the dismissive attitude toward stupid
> questions.
Wow, this is nearly as imbecilic as the statements by that wack job a
while back that Martin was some sort of deranged sex-crazed pedophile.