I hate steampunk...
Jack Tingle
have done without the illustrations, though. They clashed with my
imagination.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Remus Shepherd
> ...except, apparently, when it's Scott Westerfeld's "Leviathan". I could
> have done without the illustrations, though. They clashed with my
> imagination.
Hmmn. I also hate steampunk. Could you tell me how Leviathan rises
above the rest of the dreck?
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/remus_shepherd/
Rich Horton
<re...@panix.com> wrote:
>Jack Tingle <wjti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> ...except, apparently, when it's Scott Westerfeld's "Leviathan". I could
>> have done without the illustrations, though. They clashed with my
>> imagination.
>
> Hmmn. I also hate steampunk. Could you tell me how Leviathan rises
>above the rest of the dreck?
I don't hate steampunk, so perhaps I'm not the right person to answer.
But I did love LEVIATHAN. Perhaps for Jack the infusion of "biopunk"
made the difference.
Remus Shepherd
Well, maybe you can tell me this: Is it set in, or does it idolize,
the Victorian era? The most repressive, soulless, bleak and inhuman era
in human history that treated women and the poor like chattel yet is
somehow attractive to every emo teenage girl with a bizarre romantic
inclination for people with seven layers of clothing but no proper
sanitation or pest control? That era?
I'd like steampunk a *lot* more if it had nothing to do with the era
of steam power. Just saying. I don't really hate the genre, I guess I
just hate that period of human history and anything that attempts to
rehabilitate it.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two words:
_Clockwork Heart_
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Remus Shepherd
> Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> >Rich Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >> But I did love LEVIATHAN. Perhaps for Jack the infusion of "biopunk"
> >> made the difference.
> >
> > Well, maybe you can tell me this: Is it set in, or does it idolize,
> >the Victorian era? The most repressive, soulless, bleak and inhuman era
> >in human history that treated women and the poor like chattel yet is
> >somehow attractive to every emo teenage girl with a bizarre romantic
> >inclination for people with seven layers of clothing but no proper
> >sanitation or pest control? That era?
> >
> > I'd like steampunk a *lot* more if it had nothing to do with the era
> >of steam power. Just saying. I don't really hate the genre, I guess I
> >just hate that period of human history and anything that attempts to
> >rehabilitate it.
> Two words:
> _Clockwork Heart_
Never heard of it, but a quick google tells me it's the kind of book
I would avoid. The author's raving about yaoi on her blog is another sign
warning me to steer clear. :)
Googling _Leviathan_, I see it's based in WWI. Eh...maybe I could stand
that. It would be chancy.
Hmmn. You just gave me an idea for a steampunk novel set in the 1960's,
in the middle of a sexual revolution. I'll stick that in my 'to be written'
file. Jimi Hendrix with a steam-powered guitar...piped into a hookah...yeah.
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
Brian M. Scott
<t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote in
<news:80cgsc...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> In article <hnqmk7$1m5$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
[...]
>> I'd like steampunk a *lot* more if it had nothing to do
>> with the era of steam power. Just saying. I don't
>> really hate the genre, I guess I just hate that period
>> of human history and anything that attempts to
>> rehabilitate it.
> Two words:
> _Clockwork Heart_
By Pagliassotti? Seconded. In spades.
And in a very different vein, _The Court of the Air_, by
Stephen Hunt, can hardly be described as an attempt to
rehabilitate Victorian England.
Brian
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>> Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >Rich Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>> >> But I did love LEVIATHAN. Perhaps for Jack the infusion of "biopunk"
>> >> made the difference.
>> >
>> > Well, maybe you can tell me this: Is it set in, or does it idolize,
>> >the Victorian era? The most repressive, soulless, bleak and inhuman era
>> >in human history that treated women and the poor like chattel yet is
>> >somehow attractive to every emo teenage girl with a bizarre romantic
>> >inclination for people with seven layers of clothing but no proper
>> >sanitation or pest control? That era?
>> >
>> > I'd like steampunk a *lot* more if it had nothing to do with the era
>> >of steam power. Just saying. I don't really hate the genre, I guess I
>> >just hate that period of human history and anything that attempts to
>> >rehabilitate it.
>
>> Two words:
>> _Clockwork Heart_
>
> Never heard of it, but a quick google tells me it's the kind of book
>I would avoid. The author's raving about yaoi on her blog is another sign
>warning me to steer clear. :)
>
So you don't like Victorian steampunk because of the women as chattel
issue, but you dismiss out of hand the story of an independant woman
who choses her own lovers and is an independant actor in a society
which (broadly speaking) supports this?
(And for that matter, there were lots of worse times and places to be
a woman than the Victorian anglo-sphere..)
Remus Shepherd
> Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> >Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
> >> Two words:
> >> _Clockwork Heart_
> >
> > Never heard of it, but a quick google tells me it's the kind of book
> >I would avoid. The author's raving about yaoi on her blog is another sign
> >warning me to steer clear. :)
> So you don't like Victorian steampunk because of the women as chattel
> issue, but you dismiss out of hand the story of an independant woman
> who choses her own lovers and is an independant actor in a society
> which (broadly speaking) supports this?
Didn't see that in the story description that I read. I saw fantasy,
social intrigue, and romance (with hints that it's the type of romance
favored by giggling girl slashfic writers).
Maybe if you had given me more than two words of description to start
with, I might not have come to a mistaken opinion about the novel.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>> Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>> >> Two words:
>> >> _Clockwork Heart_
>> >
>> > Never heard of it, but a quick google tells me it's the kind of book
>> >I would avoid. The author's raving about yaoi on her blog is another sign
>> >warning me to steer clear. :)
>
>> So you don't like Victorian steampunk because of the women as chattel
>> issue, but you dismiss out of hand the story of an independant woman
>> who choses her own lovers and is an independant actor in a society
>> which (broadly speaking) supports this?
>
> Didn't see that in the story description that I read. I saw fantasy,
>social intrigue, and romance (with hints that it's the type of romance
>favored by giggling girl slashfic writers).
>
> Maybe if you had given me more than two words of description to start
>with, I might not have come to a mistaken opinion about the novel.
>
>... ...
>Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
That's true, I suppose. It's very non-giggly, very non-slash. I was
pretty sure I had posted my review here a while back but:
============================
5.0 out of 5 stars A Really Engaging Flight, June 18, 2008
By E. Nolan - See all my reviews
I *really* liked this book!
Taya is an "Icarus" in the mountain city-state of Ondinium. Icari
are sort of flying bike-messengers/mailmen/couriers for the city,
but with a bit more social status than that implies in our world.
Ondinium is apparently the only place in the world where the
negative-weight, positive mass metal "Ondium" can be mined, though
it is rare even there. An ondium armature negates enough weight
that Icari can fly with metal wings.
Taya is happy in her job, but yearns to pass her diplomatic exams
and see the world as a (flying) diplomat for Ondinium. However, her
life changes dramatically when she makes a daring rescue during a
"wireferry" (the cable cars which connect the citys different peaks
and neighborhoods) crash. Saving the life of an "Elite" woman and
her child propels her into the affairs of the city's upper-crust
and into the heart of the conspiracy that imperils it.
I'm trying to figure out why I liked this book so well and I think
there are several reasons:
1) The setting feels real and lived in. Now perhaps there are many
elements that wouldn't make sense if I thought about them too hard,
but nothing slapped me in the face and said "I'm here to challenge
your suspension of disbelief!". Not only did it feel real, it felt
like a place worth saving, and you could believe the loyalty the
main characters felt for it. No one was blind to the problems of
society, but they all felt they could be addressed in the society's
own context. The police force was shown to be strict but fair, and
not so bound by bureaucracy that they wouldn't deputize the citizenry
when necessary. There was no real democracy, but different interests
were represented on the council, and the press seemed to be completely
free (if no more accurate than our own). Also there was broad sexual
equality and a general lack of obsession with people's sleeping
arrangements. There were obvious borrowings from Republican Rome,
Victorian England, Mandarinism and Hinduism, but I felt they fell
together well.
2) The characters were engaging. Taya is smart and ambitious, but
no steely eyed hero. When circumstances force her to kill someone
(a police officer who mistakenly believes she is trying to destroy
the city's great babbage engine) in self defense, she feels terrible
about it. She is also able to accept her eventual love interest for
who he is without trying to polish all his rough edges. Said love
interest is no "love at first sight" Mr. perfect either. In the
"Night Huntress" books I just reviewed, there's an obvious "something"
about the "fate-ed" lover from the get-go. Here it develops
gradually.
3) The plot was interesting. The other "Juno" book I read recently,
_Personal Demons_ was more Supernatural Romance, with the plot
designed to bring the heroine and "hero" together. In _Clockwork
Heart_, we get enough plot that it would work as a "buddy movie"
even without the budding romance.
I would really like to see some more books in this setting.
============================
Brian M. Scott
<re...@panix.com> wrote in
<news:hnqmk7$1m5$2...@reader1.panix.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> Well, maybe you can tell me this: Is it set in, or does
> it idolize, the Victorian era? The most repressive,
> soulless, bleak and inhuman era in human history [...]
Not even close. And social conditions were better at its
end than at its beginning.
Brian
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>> Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>> >> Two words:
>> >> _Clockwork Heart_
>> >
>> > Never heard of it, but a quick google tells me it's the kind of book
>> >I would avoid. The author's raving about yaoi on her blog is another sign
>> >warning me to steer clear. :)
>
>> So you don't like Victorian steampunk because of the women as chattel
>> issue, but you dismiss out of hand the story of an independant woman
>> who choses her own lovers and is an independant actor in a society
>> which (broadly speaking) supports this?
>
> Didn't see that in the story description that I read. I saw fantasy,
>social intrigue, and romance (with hints that it's the type of romance
>favored by giggling girl slashfic writers).
>
> Maybe if you had given me more than two words of description to start
>with, I might not have come to a mistaken opinion about the novel.
Okay, more than two words.
I'm not going to say much about the plot, other than I 3rd or 4th (whatever
it's up to now) the recommendation. As to the world/society:
The book takes place in a city/state that occupies a mountain that contains
the world's only upsydaisium mine (or maybe it's Nth Metal, but they call
it something entirely different). The society is more late renaissance
than industrial age, but the city/state has developed steam-powered
industry, and the city uses gas lighting. The city also has developed
difference engines, but it does not export either its magical raw material
or its advanced tech to surrounding larger, more powerful, but less
advanced, nations. The world it is set in is an entirely made-up secndary
world, not an overlay or alternate history version of our world, and the
society of the city/state Ondinium felt more Italian than English to me.
The heroine, Taya, is a messenger/courier, belonging to a guild (the Icarus
Guild) which has entry and advancement by competitive examiniations (it's
somewhat unique in this highly caste stratified sociaty for that reason).
The Icarus messengers (icarii?) use as transportation a flying harness
fitted with just sufficient slugs of the upsydaisium metal to almost
counteract their weight, including the harness, and aluminum wings which
they operate manually. The city is very aware of the possibility of using
various power sources to operate the flying harness, and building larger
vessels using the Nth metal, to the point of having strong laws forbidding
it (the city aspires to be Metternich's Austria, not Bismark's Prussia).
The heart of the actaul story is a murder mystery and conspiracy plot.
As for the yaoi reviews and critiques, that falls under her day job as a
university Communications professor, and doesn't have any connection to
this fantasy novel.
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
Brian M. Scott
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in
<news:l2b2q516c971t3anm...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:01:58 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
> wrote:
>>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>>> Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> >Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>>> >> Two words:
>>> >> _Clockwork Heart_
>>> > Never heard of it, but a quick google tells me it's the kind of book
>>> >I would avoid. The author's raving about yaoi on her blog is another sign
>>> >warning me to steer clear. :)
>>> So you don't like Victorian steampunk because of the women as chattel
>>> issue, but you dismiss out of hand the story of an independant woman
>>> who choses her own lovers and is an independant actor in a society
>>> which (broadly speaking) supports this?
>> Didn't see that in the story description that I read. I saw fantasy,
>>social intrigue, and romance (with hints that it's the type of romance
>>favored by giggling girl slashfic writers).
>> Maybe if you had given me more than two words of description to start
>>with, I might not have come to a mistaken opinion about the novel.
> Okay, more than two words.
> I'm not going to say much about the plot, other than I 3rd or 4th (whatever
> it's up to now) the recommendation.
Some might be interested to know that the sequel has been
written and is in the paper edit stage:
<http://drupagliassotti.com/2010/01/25/editing-on-paper/>
And her _An Agreement with Hell_, 'a fast-paced and
action-packed contemporary horror novel where heaven and
hell must join forces with a mysterious magic man to
overcome a dark and dangerous foe', is due out this summer
from Apex.
[...]
Brian
trag
> 5.0 out of 5 stars A Really Engaging Flight, June 18, 2008
> By E. Nolan - See all my reviews
> Ondinium is apparently the only place in the world where the
Interesting. Oodinium is a common fish parasite. I wonder if the
author keeps fish.
Brian M. Scott
wrote in
<news:800448d3-06da-42d8...@t23g2000yqt.googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
<Ondinium> is also the name of the miracle metal. <Onde> is
French for 'wave' (cf. Latin <undare> 'to move in waves'),
so <ondinium> may just be '(hand)wavium'.
Brian
Jack Tingle
> Jack Tingle<wjti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> ...except, apparently, when it's Scott Westerfeld's "Leviathan". I could
>> have done without the illustrations, though. They clashed with my
>> imagination.
>
> Hmmn. I also hate steampunk. Could you tell me how Leviathan rises
> above the rest of the dreck?
1) No actual steam (more Diesel-punk?).
2) Very few punks (a couple of Leviathan's middies qualify).
3) It's set in 1914, not 1890.
4) The biotechnology and its genesis is very interesting.
5) The villains and heroes are both 3D, thanks mostly to Westerfeld's
writing skill.
6) Did I mention Scott Westerfeld is a skillful writer?
7) The plot moves along quickly, but logically.
On the downside, there's far too much leather clothing, although for a
reason. It's written for teenagers, so the protagonist is one. Neither
is a fatal flaw. :)
The technology (Darwinist and Clanker) is just a bit too advanced, but
as Westerfeld notes in an afterword, that's intentional, to tell a good
story. I figure a genre that allows FTL travel can let pass slightly too
advanced biotech and mechanical engineering.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Howard Brazee
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> Well, maybe you can tell me this: Is it set in, or does
>> it idolize, the Victorian era? The most repressive,
>> soulless, bleak and inhuman era in human history [...]
>
>Not even close. And social conditions were better at its
>end than at its beginning.
Significantly.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Jack Tingle
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:21:25 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
>>> Well, maybe you can tell me this: Is it set in, or does
>>> it idolize, the Victorian era? The most repressive,
>>> soulless, bleak and inhuman era in human history [...]
>>
>> Not even close. And social conditions were better at its
>> end than at its beginning.
>
> Significantly.
>
reign of George V.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Peter Huebner
says...
>
> That's true, I suppose. It's very non-giggly, very non-slash. I was
> pretty sure I had posted my review here a while back but:
>
>
> ============================
>
> 5.0 out of 5 stars A Really Engaging Flight, June 18, 2008
> By E. Nolan - See all my reviews
>
> I *really* liked this book!
>
Yupp, I read your review, searched for the book in an online store,
bought, read, and loved it.
She's [author] definitely on my 'hot'-list after this. Hope she keeps up
the quality, the storytelling and keeps them coming ...
(in other words: thanks for the tip)!
-P.
Peter Huebner
>
> Well, maybe you can tell me this: Is it set in, or does it idolize,
> the Victorian era? The most repressive, soulless, bleak and inhuman era
> in human history that treated women and the poor like chattel yet is
> somehow attractive to every emo teenage girl with a bizarre romantic
> inclination for people with seven layers of clothing but no proper
> sanitation or pest control? That era?
Well heck, give me that over the Hundred Year War, the Black Plague Era,
the Spanish Inquisition Era and contemporary Saudi Arabia or Eritrea any
day of the week.
Heck, the 'roaring twenties' were only 20 years removed from what one
might call the official end of the Victorian Era, but gosh, I bet the
Victorians kept the majority for a bit ....
anyway ... never mind me
-P.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
For that matter, consider women characters from Victorian literature.
"Mrs. Hudson" in the Sherlock Holmes stories is just a bit player
with Doyle taking no pains to make her "unusual", but she owns a building
and manages it herself.
Even Mrs. Cratchit in _A Christmas Carol_, while leading a life specifically
designed to be unpleasant, is not chatel..
Teresa Lott
wrote:
> In article <MPG.260dd5b767470c47989...@news.individual.net>,
> Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article <hnqmk7$1m...@reader1.panix.com>, re...@panix.com says...
>
> - Show quoted text -
BioShock isn't steampunk, it's dieselpunk.
Cryptoengineer
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:33:35 -0700 (PDT), trag <t...@io.com>
Nice. My guess is that the name is inspired by 'Londinium', the name
for London in Roman times, London being near to the heart of
steampunk, etc.
pt
Brian M. Scott
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:b4b6e8e5-6fe1-409b...@v20g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> On Mar 17, 5:15 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:33:35 -0700 (PDT), trag <t...@io.com>
>> wrote in
>> <news:800448d3-06da-42d8...@t23g2000yqt.googlegroups.com>
>> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>> On Mar 17, 2:09 pm, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>>>> 5.0 out of 5 stars A Really Engaging Flight, June 18, 2008
>>>> By E. Nolan - See all my reviews
>>>> Ondinium is apparently the only place in the world where the
>>> Interesting. Oodinium is a common fish parasite. I wonder if the
>>> author keeps fish.
>> <Ondinium> is also the name of the miracle metal. <Onde> is
>> French for 'wave' (cf. Latin <undare> 'to move in waves'),
>> so <ondinium> may just be '(hand)wavium'.
> Nice. My guess is that the name is inspired by 'Londinium', the name
> for London in Roman times, London being near to the heart of
> steampunk, etc.
Plausible. For that matter, there may be multiple
influences.
Brian
chukg...@gmail.com
>1) No actual steam (more Diesel-punk?).
>2) Very few punks (a couple of Leviathan's middies qualify).
>3) It's set in 1914, not 1890.
>4) The biotechnology and its genesis is very interesting.
>5) The villains and heroes are both 3D, thanks mostly to Westerfeld's
>writing skill.
>6) Did I mention Scott Westerfeld is a skillful writer?
>7) The plot moves along quickly, but logically.
>
>On the downside, there's far too much leather clothing, although for a
>reason. It's written for teenagers, so the protagonist is one. Neither
>is a fatal flaw. :)
I think a big downside was that the sequel is not out yet.
--
--
chuk
(formerly cgo...@sfu.ca)
chukg...@gmail.com
Jack Tingle <wjti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>...except, apparently, when it's Scott Westerfeld's "Leviathan". I could
>have done without the illustrations, though. They clashed with my
>imagination.
I really enjoyed "Leviathan", too. I am usually a fan of alt-hist and steampunk, though.
I think a big part of the fun was the characters and the general YA-melodrama of it, at least for me. I can't wait for the sequel.
--
chuk
(formerly cgo...@sfu.ca)
Rich Horton
>I really enjoyed "Leviathan", too. I am usually a fan of alt-hist and steampunk, though.
>
>I think a big part of the fun was the characters and the general YA-melodrama of it, at least for me. I can't wait for the sequel.
Indeed, as you say, the big flaw is that the sequel isn't out yet.
It's not just because as with any really good series I just want to
read the next book ... Also, this book really doesn't end, but just
stop.
Nigel
> In article <MPG.260dd5b767470c47989...@news.individual.net>,
> Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article <hnqmk7$1m...@reader1.panix.com>, re...@panix.com says...
>
> >> Well, maybe you can tell me this: Is it set in, or does it idolize,
> >> the Victorian era? The most repressive, soulless, bleak and inhuman era
> >> in human history that treated women and the poor like chattel yet is
> >> somehow attractive to every emo teenage girl with a bizarre romantic
> >> inclination for people with seven layers of clothing but no proper
> >> sanitation or pest control? That era?
>
> >Well heck, give me that over the Hundred Year War, the Black Plague Era,
> >the Spanish Inquisition Era and contemporary Saudi Arabia or Eritrea any
> >day of the week.
>
> >Heck, the 'roaring twenties' were only 20 years removed from what one
> >might call the official end of the Victorian Era, but gosh, I bet the
> >Victorians kept the majority for a bit ....
>
> >anyway ... never mind me
>
> > -P.
>
> For that matter, consider women characters from Victorian literature.
> "Mrs. Hudson" in the Sherlock Holmes stories is just a bit player
> with Doyle taking no pains to make her "unusual", but she owns a building
> and manages it herself.
>
> Even Mrs. Cratchit in _A Christmas Carol_, while leading a life specifically
> designed to be unpleasant, is not chatel..
>
With the character of Mrs Bumble in _Oliver Twist_, Dickens takes the
chatel status of married women head on:
: 'It was all Mrs. Bumble. She *would* do it,' urged Mr. Bumble; first
looking round
: to ascertain that his partner had left the room.
:'That is no excuse,' replied Mr. Brownlow. 'You were present on the
occasion of
: the destruction of these trinkets, and indeed are the more guilty of
the two, in the
: eye of the law; for the law supposes that your wife acts under your
direction.'
: 'If the law supposes that,' said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat
emphatically in both
: hands, 'the law is a ass - a idiot. If that's the eye of the law,
the law is a bachelor;
: and the worst I wish the law is, that his eye may be opened by
experience - by
: experience.'
Cheers,
Nigel.