Inspiration for TV Series?

[JohnFair]

HiGroup,

I'm rereading Lawrence Watt-Evans's 'Crosstime Travel' collection and in this we have the story 'Storm Troopers' where the NYPD have deployed a special taskforce tasked to deal with the effects of reality storms that are dumping bits of otherness all over New York.

Flashforward a decade or so and we have Fringe the TV series that deals with very similar themes. Fringe staffers are fairly covert and part of the FBI on our side, but the parallels are obvious after the reread (and clearly Fringe has taken things further than the story).

Accident or intent?
--
John Fairhurst
http://www.johnsbooks.cok.uk

[Dan Goodman]

JohnFair wrote:

> HiGroup,
>
> I'm rereading Lawrence Watt-Evans's 'Crosstime Travel' collection and
> in this we have the story 'Storm Troopers'

Correction: Storm Trooper

> where the NYPD have
> deployed a special taskforce tasked to deal with the effects of
> reality storms that are dumping bits of otherness all over New York.
>
> Flashforward a decade or so and we have Fringe the TV series that
> deals with very similar themes. Fringe staffers are fairly covert and
> part of the FBI on our side, but the parallels are obvious after the
> reread (and clearly Fringe has taken things further than the story).
>
> Accident or intent?

I believe the same basic idea was used in Pohl's The Coming of the
Quantum Cats, published several years earlier.

--
Dan Goodman
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Several? I thought it was only two or three years earlier. (Remember,
_Crosstime Traffic_ wasn't the first place "Storm Trooper" appeared.)




--
Now available on Amazon or B&N: One-Eyed Jack.
Greg Kraft could see ghosts. That didn't mean he could stop them...

[Dan Goodman]

Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

> On 2012-10-13 19:48:22 -0400, Dan Goodman said:
>
> > JohnFair wrote:
> >
> > > HiGroup,
> > >
> > > I'm rereading Lawrence Watt-Evans's 'Crosstime Travel' collection
> > > and in this we have the story 'Storm Troopers'
> >
> > Correction: Storm Trooper
> >
> > > where the NYPD have
> > > deployed a special taskforce tasked to deal with the effects of
> > > reality storms that are dumping bits of otherness all over New
> > > York.
> > >
> > > Flashforward a decade or so and we have Fringe the TV series that
> > > deals with very similar themes. Fringe staffers are fairly covert
> > > and part of the FBI on our side, but the parallels are obvious
> > > after the reread (and clearly Fringe has taken things further
> > > than the story).
> > >
> > > Accident or intent?
> >
> > I believe the same basic idea was used in Pohl's The Coming of the
> > Quantum Cats, published several years earlier.
>
> Several? I thought it was only two or three years earlier.
> (Remember, _Crosstime Traffic_ wasn't the first place "Storm Trooper"
> appeared.)

I remembered, and checked for original publication dates.

Official pubdates 1992 minus 1986: six years. Considering the way
magazines work, actually five years.

[JohnFair]

On Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:48:23 AM UTC+1, Dan Goodman wrote:
> JohnFair wrote: > HiGroup, > > I'm rereading Lawrence Watt-Evans's 'Crosstime Travel' collection and > in this we have the story 'Storm Troopers' Correction: Storm Trooper

So much for checking titles with the book :-(....

--
John Fairhurst
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2012-10-14 16:00:09 -0400, JohnFair said:

> On Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:48:23 AM UTC+1, Dan Goodman wrote:
>> JohnFair wrote: > HiGroup, > > I'm rereading Lawrence Watt-Evans's
>> 'Crosstime Travel' collection and > in this we have the story 'Storm
>> Troopers' Correction: Storm Trooper
>
> So much for checking titles with the book :-(....

I didn't bother pointing out that it's _Crosstime Traffic_, not
_Crosstime Travel_.

[David Johnston]

DC's Earth One and Earth Two came first.

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-15 00:55:40 +0000, David Johnston

Don't know what that has to do with FRINGE of Lawrence's story, but
Jack Finney's "The Coin Collector" came before those, and it wasn't the
first, either.

Parallel universes go back at least to 1666, if not earlier.

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Dan Goodman]

What's under discussion is alternate universes getting mixed up with
each other.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Oh, it is? I thought it was specialized law enforcement units for
dealing with leakage between universes.

[Kurt Busiek]

That didn't seem to be where the earlier discussion was going, to me.
But other than people crossing back and forth and getting involved in
stories, the Earth-1 Earth-2 stuff didn't have a whole lot of "getting
mixed up" -- they were two distinct Earths with similarities and there
were ways to go back and forth between them.

Even as far back as 1666's THE BLAZING-WORLD, there's a
cross-dimensional invasion organized.

That wasn't new -- SF writers had done it before. What made it
different and interesting in the case of the DC Universe was that it
was used as a way to unify existing stories -- Earth-Two wasn't simply
another world, but a world that was the setting for lots of
previously-published stories.

I doubt that was completely new in 1961 -- there's an Edward Eager
novel in which the characters glancingly meet some E. Nesbit
characters, and of course THE COMPLETE ENCHANTER stories involve both
travel to previously-published fictions and characters coming back to
the "real" world from there. But I can't think of an earlier time it
happened on such a large and sweeping scale.

[David DeLaney]

Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:

>"Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> said:
>> What's under discussion is alternate universes getting mixed up with
>> each other.
>
>That didn't seem to be where the earlier discussion was going, to me.
>But other than people crossing back and forth and getting involved in
>stories, the Earth-1 Earth-2 stuff didn't have a whole lot of "getting
>mixed up" -- they were two distinct Earths with similarities and there
>were ways to go back and forth between them.

And, confusingly, Earth-Two was the original, 'older' one. The 'bleeding into
each other' didn't really enter the picture until Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Meanwhile, Asimov's _The Gods Themselves_ seems almost perfectly suited to
the original subject, yes?

>I doubt that was completely new in 1961 -- there's an Edward Eager
>novel in which the characters glancingly meet some E. Nesbit
>characters,

Seven-Day Magic. Where they keep coming in before the beginning, or after
the end, of other stories.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Kevrob]

On Oct 15, 3:24 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:

> Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> >"Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> said:
> >> What's under discussion is alternate universes getting mixed up with
> >> each other.
>
> >That didn't seem to be where the earlier discussion was going, to me.
> >But other than people crossing back and forth and getting involved in
> >stories, the Earth-1 Earth-2 stuff didn't have a whole lot of "getting
> >mixed up" -- they were two distinct Earths with similarities and there
> >were ways to go back and forth between them.
>
> And, confusingly, Earth-Two was the original, 'older' one. The 'bleeding into
> each other' didn't really enter the picture until Crisis on Infinite Earths.
>

While traveling between the DC Earths starts as early as "Flash of Two
Worlds", the "bleeding" can be said to have started the first time we
see that Barry (Flash of Earth-1) Allen is a fan, specifically of
FLASH COMICS and ALL-STAR COMICS. There is a mention that Earth-1's
Gardner Fox claimed the stories came to him in his dreams.

In some of the JLA/JSA teamups, ordinary people are confronted with
ghostly images of their other-Earth counterparts, Earth-2 Johnny
Thunder loses control of his Thunderbolt to his crooked Earth-1
counterpart, and attacks on JSAers result in inexplicable identical
effects on similar JLAers.

Neither the League nor the Society are regular enough police
organizations to match the Fringe Division, however.

Reading these stories as they were originally published or reprinted
in the 1960s and 1970s, I was aware that Julie Schwartz, Fox and John
Broome were cribbing from Murray Leinster, H Beam Piper and anybody
else in prose SF who used the parallel worlds conceit.

> Meanwhile, Asimov's _The Gods Themselves_ seems almost perfectly suited to
> the original subject, yes?
>
> >I doubt that was completely new in 1961 -- there's an Edward Eager
> >novel in which the characters glancingly meet some E. Nesbit
> >characters,
>
> Seven-Day Magic. Where they keep coming in before the beginning, or after
> the end, of other stories.
>
> Dave
> --

Kevin

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-15 19:55:10 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:

> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> I doubt that was completely new in 1961 -- there's an Edward Eager
>> novel in which the characters glancingly meet some E. Nesbit
>> characters,
>
> Seven-Day Magic. Where they keep coming in before the beginning, or after
> the end, of other stories.

THE TIME GARDEN was the one I was thinking of, actually. They spot the
characters from THE PHOENIX AND THE CARPET while each are headed
different ways through the timestream, as I recall.

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <k5f9sd$kal$1...@dont-email.me>, l...@sff.net says...

>
> On 2012-10-14 16:00:09 -0400, JohnFair said:
>
> > On Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:48:23 AM UTC+1, Dan Goodman wrote:
> >> JohnFair wrote: > HiGroup, > > I'm rereading Lawrence Watt-Evans's
> >> 'Crosstime Travel' collection and > in this we have the story 'Storm
> >> Troopers' Correction: Storm Trooper
> >
> > So much for checking titles with the book :-(....
>
> I didn't bother pointing out that it's _Crosstime Traffic_, not
> _Crosstime Travel_.

That really shouldn't be necessary.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Robert Carnegie]

And when did they make it illegal to be from a different universe...
oh, I guess 1986 is right for the Crisis On Infinite Earths.
Until then, DC Comics had lots of characters living outside their
birth universe more-or-less openly.

[David DeLaney]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:44:25 -0700, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>On 2012-10-15 19:55:10 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>> I doubt that was completely new in 1961 -- there's an Edward Eager
>>> novel in which the characters glancingly meet some E. Nesbit
>>> characters,
>>
>> Seven-Day Magic. Where they keep coming in before the beginning, or after
>> the end, of other stories.
>
>THE TIME GARDEN was the one I was thinking of, actually. They spot the
>characters from THE PHOENIX AND THE CARPET while each are headed
>different ways through the timestream, as I recall.

Ah right. I think they might have run into them also in 7DM? I'd have to either
dig it out and reread, or visit the library. And right now I just started a
half-of-Bujold jag...

Dave, classics declassified

[tphile2]

What about the Black Canary storyline? I well remember the JLA issues where she moved from Earth 2 to Earth 1 after the death of Larry Lance. (Red Tornado being another immigrant). Did Canary ever meet her Earth 1 counterpart and that Larry Lance? We know of the JSA to JLA moves but was there any Earth 1 moving to Earth 2?

[David DeLaney]

tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>What about the Black Canary storyline? I well remember the JLA issues where
> she moved from Earth 2 to Earth 1 after the death of Larry Lance. (Red
> Tornado being another immigrant). Did Canary ever meet her Earth 1
> counterpart and that Larry Lance? We know of the JSA to JLA moves but was
> there any Earth 1 moving to Earth 2?

Oh were it only that simple. That's what the Earth-1 Canary THOUGHT had
happened, but (and all of this is 'if I recall correctly', Kurt might correct
me at any moment) she actually turned out to be the DAUGHTER of Earth-2's
Canary and its Larry Lance. So she didn't "gain" her Canary Cry power from
crossing between the worlds, it was her own mutant power not possessed by
her Mom.

Dave, honestly, it's like a super-soap-opera sometimes

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-16 06:01:21 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:

> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:44:25 -0700, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-10-15 19:55:10 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>>> I doubt that was completely new in 1961 -- there's an Edward Eager
>>>> novel in which the characters glancingly meet some E. Nesbit
>>>> characters,
>>>
>>> Seven-Day Magic. Where they keep coming in before the beginning, or after
>>> the end, of other stories.
>>
>> THE TIME GARDEN was the one I was thinking of, actually. They spot the
>> characters from THE PHOENIX AND THE CARPET while each are headed
>> different ways through the timestream, as I recall.
>
> Ah right. I think they might have run into them also in 7DM? I'd have to either
> dig it out and reread, or visit the library. And right now I just started a
> half-of-Bujold jag...

My daughters have run off with my copies of the books, or I'd check,
but some years back I told Neil Gaiman about the "crossover," though I
couldn't remember where it happened, and he was doubtful that Eager
would have gotten away with the copyright issue, so I went hunting for
it.

TIME GARDEN was the only literal Eager/Nesbit crossover bit I could
find -- there's lots of reference to Nesbit in the other books, but if
there was anything more than that I missed it. And the PHOENIX AND THE
CARPET bit was accomplished by not naming anyone and having it be a
very brief this; there wasn't room to build up enough detail for
copyright violation to be an issue.

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-16 13:19:06 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:

> tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>> What about the Black Canary storyline? I well remember the JLA issues where
>> she moved from Earth 2 to Earth 1 after the death of Larry Lance. (Red
>> Tornado being another immigrant). Did Canary ever meet her Earth 1
>> counterpart and that Larry Lance? We know of the JSA to JLA moves but was
>> there any Earth 1 moving to Earth 2?
>
> Oh were it only that simple. That's what the Earth-1 Canary THOUGHT had
> happened,

For years, it was what had happened; it was retconned only a couple of
years or so pre-Crisis.

> but (and all of this is 'if I recall correctly', Kurt might correct
> me at any moment) she actually turned out to be the DAUGHTER of Earth-2's
> Canary and its Larry Lance.

Partly correct. She turned out to be the mom's mind and memory
magically projected into the daughter's body, the daughter having grown
to adulthood in suspended animation in the Bahdnisian Thunderbolt
dimension and having no real memories of her own.

> So she didn't "gain" her Canary Cry power from
> crossing between the worlds, it was her own mutant power not possessed by
> her Mom.

Not a mutant power, but the result of having been cursed as a baby by
the Earth-2 villain The Wizard. Which was why she grew up in suspended
animation and all.

> Dave, honestly, it's like a super-soap-opera sometimes

Sometimes?

[David DeLaney]

Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:

>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>> Oh were it only that simple. That's what the Earth-1 Canary THOUGHT had
>> happened,
>
>For years, it was what had happened; it was retconned only a couple of
>years or so pre-Crisis.

But after that it was what had always happened, I can't go back and unchange
things!

>> but (and all of this is 'if I recall correctly', Kurt might correct
>> me at any moment) she actually turned out to be the DAUGHTER of Earth-2's
>> Canary and its Larry Lance.
>
>Partly correct. She turned out to be the mom's mind and memory
>magically projected into the daughter's body, the daughter having grown
>to adulthood in suspended animation in the Bahdnisian Thunderbolt
>dimension and having no real memories of her own.

Right, I _knew_ there was a Thunderbolt mixed up in it somewhere.

>> Dave, honestly, it's like a super-soap-opera sometimes
>
>Sometimes?

Sometimes it's like a game show, or one of those reality shows where they
put ten different supervillains in a house next to Arkham for a month.

Dave

[David DeLaney]

Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>TIME GARDEN was the only literal Eager/Nesbit crossover bit I could
>find -- there's lots of reference to Nesbit in the other books, but if
>there was anything more than that I missed it.

There's a note at the end of Half Magic now, I think in the Eager bio blurb,
that he made a reference to one or another Nesbit book in every single one
of his seven, because he thought her stories were fabulous.

Dave

[Kevrob]

On Oct 17, 1:56 am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:

> Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> >d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
> >> Oh were it only that simple. That's what the Earth-1 Canary THOUGHT had
> >> happened,
>
> >For years, it was what had happened; it was retconned only a couple of
> >years or so pre-Crisis.
>
> But after that it was what had always happened, I can't go back and unchange
> things!
>
> >> but (and all of this is 'if I recall correctly', Kurt might correct
> >> me at any moment) she actually turned out to be the DAUGHTER of Earth-2's
> >> Canary and its Larry Lance.
>
> >Partly correct. She turned out to be the mom's mind and memory
> >magically projected into the daughter's body, the daughter having grown
> >to adulthood in suspended animation in the Bahdnisian Thunderbolt
> >dimension and having no real memories of her own.
>
> Right, I _knew_ there was a Thunderbolt mixed up in it somewhere.
>
> >> Dave, honestly, it's like a super-soap-opera sometimes
>
> >Sometimes?
>
> Sometimes it's like a game show, or one of those reality shows where they
> put ten different supervillains in a house next to Arkham for a month.
>

So, like BLOOD PACK, but with bad guys?

http://www.comics.org/series/14771/

Kevin

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-17 06:27:01 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:

> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>>> Oh were it only that simple. That's what the Earth-1 Canary THOUGHT had
>>> happened,
>>
>> For years, it was what had happened; it was retconned only a couple of
>> years or so pre-Crisis.
>
> But after that it was what had always happened, I can't go back and unchange
> things!

I can. All I have to do is read comics from before the retcon!

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 10/17/12 4:54 PM, Kurt Busiek wrote:
> On 2012-10-17 06:27:01 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>
>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>>>> Oh were it only that simple. That's what the Earth-1 Canary THOUGHT had
>>>> happened,
>>>
>>> For years, it was what had happened; it was retconned only a couple of
>>> years or so pre-Crisis.
>>
>> But after that it was what had always happened, I can't go back and
>> unchange
>> things!
>
> I can. All I have to do is read comics from before the retcon!

Or write ones that retcon the retcon!


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-17 20:59:34 +0000, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:

> On 10/17/12 4:54 PM, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>> On 2012-10-17 06:27:01 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>>
>>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>>> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>>>>> Oh were it only that simple. That's what the Earth-1 Canary THOUGHT had
>>>>> happened,
>>>>
>>>> For years, it was what had happened; it was retconned only a couple of
>>>> years or so pre-Crisis.
>>>
>>> But after that it was what had always happened, I can't go back and
>>> unchange
>>> things!
>>
>> I can. All I have to do is read comics from before the retcon!
>
> Or write ones that retcon the retcon!

Come to think of it, I've done that…!

[tphile2]

If a retcon or event creates an alternate timeline/dimension,would another event that erases the previous, simply restore or return to the original or just create another alternate timeline/dimension?

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-18 00:31:04 +0000, tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> said:

> On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:37:21 PM UTC-5, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>> On 2012-10-17 20:59:34 +0000, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>
>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
>>
>>> On 10/17/12 4:54 PM, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>
>>>> On 2012-10-17 06:27:01 +0000, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
>>>> said:
>>>>> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>>>>> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>>>>>>> Oh were it only that simple. That's what the Earth-1 Canary THOUGHT
>>>>>>> had happened,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For years, it was what had happened; it was retconned only a couple
>>>>>> of years or so pre-Crisis.
>>>>>
>>>>> But after that it was what had always happened, I can't go back and
>>>>> unchange things!
>>>>
>>>> I can. All I have to do is read comics from before the retcon!
>>
>>> Or write ones that retcon the retcon!
>>
>> Come to think of it, I've done that…!
>

> If a retcon or event creates an alternate timeline/dimension,would another
> event that erases the previous, simply restore or return to the original or
> just create another alternate timeline/dimension?

Storyteller's choice, I'd say. We make these things up.

[David DeLaney]

Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> said:
>> On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:37:21 PM UTC-5, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
>>>> On 10/17/12 4:54 PM, Kurt Busiek wrote:

>>>>> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
>>>>>> But after that it was what had always happened, I can't go back and
>>>>>> unchange things!
>>>>>
>>>>> I can. All I have to do is read comics from before the retcon!
>>>
>>>> Or write ones that retcon the retcon!
>>>
>>> Come to think of it, I've done that…!
>>
>> If a retcon or event creates an alternate timeline/dimension,would another
>> event that erases the previous, simply restore or return to the original or
>> just create another alternate timeline/dimension?
>
>Storyteller's choice, I'd say. We make these things up.

Ancient Greek Philosopher say, one cannot dip one's quill in the same river
of time twice.

Dave, to every thing, there is a summer crossover special

[Kevrob]

On Oct 17, 9:48 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:

> >tphile2 <tphi...@cableone.net> said:
> >> On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:37:21 PM UTC-5, Kurt Busiek wrote:

> >>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
> >>>> On 10/17/12 4:54 PM, Kurt Busiek wrote:
> >>>>> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:
> >>>>>> But after that it was what had always happened, I can't go back and
> >>>>>> unchange things!
>
> >>>>> I can. All I have to do is read comics from before the retcon!
>
> >>>>        Or write ones that retcon the retcon!
>
> >>> Come to think of it, I've done that…!
>
> >> If a retcon or event creates an alternate timeline/dimension,would another
> >> event that erases the previous, simply restore or return to the original or
> >>  just create another alternate timeline/dimension?
>
> >Storyteller's choice, I'd say. We make these things up.
>
> Ancient Greek Philosopher say, one cannot dip one's quill in the same river
> of time twice.
>

There's an exception when dippng Windsor-Newtons in buckets of India
ink. :)

> Dave, to every thing, there is a summer crossover special

A sentiment to be double-bagged!

Kevin

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 5:38:41 PM UTC+1, Kurt Busiek wrote:
> > but (and all of this is 'if I recall correctly', Kurt might correct

> > me at any moment) she [Earth-1 Black Canary] actually turned out to be

> > the DAUGHTER of Earth-2's Canary and its Larry Lance.
>
> Partly correct. She turned out to be the mom's mind and memory
> magically projected into the daughter's body, the daughter having grown
> to adulthood in suspended animation in the Bahdnisian Thunderbolt
> dimension and having no real memories of her own.

By the way: that's really creepy, isn't it? "Scarlet Witch's children" creepy?

Condsidering comics as a medium for kids (as some people think),
kids get a really rough deal sometimes in the comics.

* tries to think of anyone in Scott Summers' family with a normal childhood *

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-18 10:25:35 +0000, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:

> On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 5:38:41 PM UTC+1, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>> but (and all of this is 'if I recall correctly', Kurt might correct
>>> me at any moment) she [Earth-1 Black Canary] actually turned out to be
>>> the DAUGHTER of Earth-2's Canary and its Larry Lance.
>>
>> Partly correct. She turned out to be the mom's mind and memory
>> magically projected into the daughter's body, the daughter having grown
>> to adulthood in suspended animation in the Bahdnisian Thunderbolt
>> dimension and having no real memories of her own.
>
> By the way: that's really creepy, isn't it? "Scarlet Witch's children" creepy?

Creepier.

Everyone acted like she was the daughter; she wasn't. She was the
daughter's body, the mother's mind. And the mother showed no hesitation
in taking over her daughter's body that way.

[tphile2]

That's pretty creepy, but is it creepier than the Carol Danvers/Immortus/Marcus rape to later be attacked by Rogue storyline?
or Batman Beyond. Batman in a relationship with Barbara Gordon and Ras Al Ghul placing his mind in daughter Talia?

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2012-10-18 18:42:17 +0000, tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> said:

> On Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>> On 2012-10-18 10:25:35 +0000, Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> said:
>>> On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 5:38:41 PM UTC+1, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>>>> but (and all of this is 'if I recall correctly', Kurt might correct
>>>>> me at any moment) she [Earth-1 Black Canary] actually turned out to be
>>>>> the DAUGHTER of Earth-2's Canary and its Larry Lance.
>>>>
>>>> Partly correct. She turned out to be the mom's mind and memory
>>>> magically projected into the daughter's body, the daughter having grown
>>>> to adulthood in suspended animation in the Bahdnisian Thunderbolt
>>>> dimension and having no real memories of her own.
>>
>>> By the way: that's really creepy, isn't it? "Scarlet Witch's children" creepy?
>>
>> Creepier.
>>
>> Everyone acted like she was the daughter; she wasn't. She was the
>> daughter's body, the mother's mind. And the mother showed no hesitation
>> in taking over her daughter's body that way.
>

> That's pretty creepy, but is it creepier than the Carol
> Danvers/Immortus/Marcus rape to later be attacked by Rogue storyline?

I'd say so, yes.

[David Johnston]

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:14:48 AM UTC-6, Kurt Busiek wrote:

> Everyone acted like she was the daughter; she wasn't. She was the
>
> daughter's body, the mother's mind. And the mother showed no hesitation
>
> in taking over her daughter's body that way.
>

I was unaware that Dinah ever knew what was going on

[Kurt Busiek]

She was on-panel, making the choice to take over her daughter's now-adult
body. Don't make me go look at it again to figure out the chronology.

kdb
--

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:45:53 PM UTC+1, Kurt Busiek wrote:
> > ["Reincarnation" of Black Canary]

> > I was unaware that Dinah ever knew what was going on
>
> She was on-panel, making the choice to take over her daughter's
> now-adult body.

Which the daughter wasn't going to use... it isn't necessarily a
Lucrezia Heterodyne scene. But... still...

So then she... goes and lives on Earth-1? And... how much of this
does she remember, and who does she think she is - mother or daughter?

I have read, although I don't know with what authority, that in some
Eastern religion, when you die you are served tea in Heaven while you
wait to be reincarnated, and you don't remember your past life because
they put something in the tea to make you forget. (Presumably a
courtesy body is provided while you are waiting for a new one to
become available on Earth.) Apparently this one guy didn't drink
the tea, and that's how we know.

There was something more recently with a new Hawkgirl, I think -
was it that she was inclined to depression, and committed suicide in
such a way that (without exactly intending it) when they revived her,
they got the soul of the first, human Hawkwoman, instead?

This probably isn't a message to send to the kids either, although
I'm not even sure what the message /is/, there.

Except for "Your turn as the new version of an established superhero
character is likely to not last long", of course.

But /that/ problem mostly falls outside the scope of r.a.sf.w.
Since science fiction is not about characters, for one thing. :-)

[Kurt Busiek]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:45:53 PM UTC+1, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>> ["Reincarnation" of Black Canary]
>>> I was unaware that Dinah ever knew what was going on
>>
>> She was on-panel, making the choice to take over her daughter's
>> now-adult body.
>
> Which the daughter wasn't going to use...

The daughter had been rendered incapable of using it, but that wasn't a
permanent condition. They could have revived her and taught her, but they
didn't bother.

The only reason she was in suspended animation, after all, was the
"uncontrollable" sonic curse, which was plenty controllable once her mother
was in charge.

What makes it so creepy is that they never apparently tried to solve the
problem in any way that would benefit the daughter, but the problem was
easily solved, treated as irrelevant once the mother was put into her
daughter's body.

> So then she... goes and lives on Earth-1? And... how much of this
> does she remember, and who does she think she is - mother or daughter?

Feel free to look it up if you're interested, but as I noted last time, I
don't want to go keep looking at it again; it's a bad story. And since
whenever I outline what was going on, you argue about it, adding details
and qualifications that you're just making up out of thin air, you're
clearly not interested in taking my word for it. So you're better off doing
the research yourself, to the extent that you care to.

[Michael Stemper]

Just another perfect day on Jackson's Whole!

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Life's too important to take seriously.