Brust: 500 Years After
Marty Kagan
was fabulous, I thought. I've been waiting a decade for the story behind
Adron's Disaster! I don't mean this to be a complaint or a criticism, but
did anyone else catch the typos on page 355? Twice he refers to Aerich when
he means Adron (which is ironic after the author's prior apology for the
confusion surrounding Aerich, Adron, and Aliera). I wonder why the editors
didn't catch it.
Ah well, a minor problem in perspective. Hopefully it'll get corrected for
the paperback version.
My other question was about the reference to Devera in the afterword. Confused
the heck out of me. Any ideas? Anyone disagree with my glowing review?
--
** Marty Kagan eah...@rigel.oac.uci.edu **
** "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend... **
** "Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read" **
** -Grouch Marx **
Larry A Keber
One thing that bothers me is that in Jhereg, Aliera tells Vlad about the
Dragon-Jhereg war which happened just before Adron's Disaster. Yet in 500 Years
After, thre is no mention of it (that I saw, anyway...)
Larry
--
| Larry Keber They'll take away my CLI when they pry my
,-|_ cold, dead fingers from the keyboard.
o==///:========================-
`-- | l...@world.std.com decvax!safety!talon!lak CI$: [76356,31]
Sean Eric Fagan
>One thing that bothers me is that in Jhereg, Aliera tells Vlad about the
>Dragon-Jhereg war which happened just before Adron's Disaster. Yet in 500 Years
>After, thre is no mention of it (that I saw, anyway...)
It was just getting started, wasn't it, according to Aliera?
I thought about it, too, and was looking for some hint of it, but didn't
see much. It would have had to concern a Dragonlord who had given sanctuary
to a Jhereg, and neither House was important to the story.
David DeLaney
>Dragon-Jhereg war which happened just before Adron's Disaster. Yet in 500 Years
>After, thre is no mention of it (that I saw, anyway...)
Yes, I was also watching for that, and didn't see it; perhaps because
(this time) none of the principals were Jhereg, we didn't see the
actual maneuvering/plotting as such? The Dragons involved would get an
*entirely* different picture of what was going on, if I'm not mistaken...
Dave "who would've been the Dragon giving sanctuary to a Jhereg?" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; WARNING: DO NOT PUT BEANS IN YOUR EARS!
Disclaimer: UTK agree with me? Yeah, right...; Thinking about this disclaimer__
may cause offense, brain seizure, confusion, or particle physics. VRbeableDJK\/
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd for the net.legends FAQ + miniFAQs, or anon-ftp
P Nielsen Hayden
>I don't know if anyone else has finished reading 500 Years After yet. It
>was fabulous, I thought. I've been waiting a decade for the story behind
>Adron's Disaster! I don't mean this to be a complaint or a criticism, but
>did anyone else catch the typos on page 355? Twice he refers to Aerich when
>he means Adron (which is ironic after the author's prior apology for the
>confusion surrounding Aerich, Adron, and Aliera). I wonder why the editors
>didn't catch it.
The editors didn't catch it because (technical publishing talk coming up --
wait for it) We Screwed Up. There are a few other glitches, too, like
Khaavren's servant going missing from the dramatis personae. Very much to
be expected with a book of this size and complexity -- and to be expected
that readers will catch us on them.
Oddly, I'm posting this from Steve Brust's living room, where I've been
reading the manuscript of ORCA. My my. What Our Steve is doing. My.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com
senior editor, Tor Books : opinions mine
David Goldfarb
)Oddly, I'm posting this from Steve Brust's living room, where I've been
)reading the manuscript of ORCA. My my. What Our Steve is doing. My.
Aaaaiiirrgggh. It's not fair to tease us about a book that we won't
see for over a year. Play nice, Patrick, or I'll sic Debbie Notkin on you.
Incidentally, I've been thinking about titles for the next volume
of the Khaavren Romances. There's a distinct lack of parallelism among
the three working titles we've seen -- _The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_
and _The Lord of Castle Black_ both refer to characters in the novels;
_Two Hundred Years Later_ doesn't. Since _THYL_ presumably features the
beginning of of Empress Zerika's reign, the book could be named after her:
_The Reborn Phoenix_. Of course, we already have _Phoenix_ and _The Phoenix
Guards_, so that might also cause retailer confusion.
David Goldfarb |"Sunset over Houma. The rains have stopped.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | Clouds like plugs of bloodied cotton wool dab
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | ineffectually at the slashed wrists of the sky."
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu | -- Alan Moore
Geoff A. Cohen
David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>)Oddly, I'm posting this from Steve Brust's living room, where I've been
>)reading the manuscript of ORCA. My my. What Our Steve is doing. My.
>
> Aaaaiiirrgggh. It's not fair to tease us about a book that we won't
>see for over a year. Play nice, Patrick, or I'll sic Debbie Notkin on you.
No kidding. ORCA? I'm assuming it's the novelization of the new Spielberg
film, right?
> Incidentally, I've been thinking about titles for the next volume
>of the Khaavren Romances. ...
In case there are people out there who haven't noticed, Brust is
structuring the Khaavren Romances very closely after Dumas' Musketeer
cycle.
Brust Dumas
_The Phoenix Guards_ _The Three Musketeers_
_Five Hundred Years After_ _Twenty Years After_
_Viscount of Adrilankha_ _Viscount of Bragellonne_
"200 Years Later" Part I
"Enchantress of Dzur Mtn" Part II
"Lord of Castle Black" "Man in the Iron Mask"
I don't think the first two parts of _Bragellonne_ are in print in
English. Does anyone want to fill me in on their names, if they
had separate titles? If we are to further assume _plot_ similarity,
then "Lord of Castle Black" is going to be *very* depressing...
And did everyone notice that _Five Hundred Years After_ was submitted
to Empress Norathar? How do you suppose *that* happened?
Geoff Cohen
The Kaspelheim Project
Beth Nachison
(David Goldfarb) writes...
>
> Incidentally, I've been thinking about titles for the next volume
>of the Khaavren Romances. There's a distinct lack of parallelism among
>the three working titles we've seen -- _The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_
>and _The Lord of Castle Black_ both refer to characters in the novels;
>_Two Hundred Years Later_ doesn't. Since _THYL_ presumably features the
>beginning of of Empress Zerika's reign, the book could be named after her:
>_The Reborn Phoenix_. Of course, we already have _Phoenix_ and _The Phoenix
>Guards_, so that might also cause retailer confusion.
Ah, but we're following a different, Dumas-based sort of parallelism
here.
The Three Musketeers becomes The Phoenix Guards
Twenty Years After becomes Five Hundred Years After
The Vicomte de Bragelonne becomes The Viscount of Adrilankha
(5 vols.) (3 vols.)
vol. 1= Ten Years Later vol. 1 = 200 Years Later
See? I rather like it. (Unfortunately, even most people who've read
The Three Musketeers don't follow the series through to the end, so
they'll miss the joke, & as Patrick says, it could be confusing.)
Beth
nach...@scsu.ctstateu.edu
P Nielsen Hayden
>And did everyone notice that _Five Hundred Years After_ was submitted
>to Empress Norathar? How do you suppose *that* happened?
Easy: the conceit is that FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER was composed and
published by Paarfi sometime (but not long) after the events of the
Vlad books so far.
Incidentally, those of you engaging in what John Clute calls "the frenzy of
interpretation" regarding THE VISCOUNT OF ADRILANKHA may be interested to
know that the working title for Volume One is now THE PATHS OF THE DEAD.
Geoff A. Cohen
>
>>And did everyone notice that _Five Hundred Years After_ was submitted
>>to Empress Norathar? How do you suppose *that* happened?
>
>Easy: the conceit is that FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER was composed and
>published by Paarfi sometime (but not long) after the events of the
>Vlad books so far.
Well, yes, I had gotten that far in my logic chain. I wasn't blaming
it on the editors, honest!
The question was, what caused Zerika to step down? Paarfi makes an
offhand comment about the peaceful handover of power. Doesn't seem
likely, Dragons taking over peacefully, unless there isn't a Phoenix
Heir.
Perhaps that's what comes of sleeping with a Fenarian.
Btw, while I'm at it, who's Miklos' daughter in _Brokedown Palace_?
My guess is Cawti.
Sean Eric Fagan
>likely, Dragons taking over peacefully, unless there isn't a Phoenix
>Heir.
Vlad comments, at some point, that Zerika is the last Phoenix.
Graydon
For the first Viscount book, well, there's 'The Empress from the
Ashes' or 'The Empress of the Ashes' or even 'The Empress from the
Paths of the Dead'; I don't think the means of Zerika's accesnsion
have a precedent.
As for Zerika being the last Phoneix - does that mean, when she
dies, the cycle falls off its wall and a quarter million years
of Drageran political history goes *fwomp!*, or will Phoneixes
start flying over births in other houses, or, Graydon's favourite
suguestion, will some _Easterners_ become the new house of the
Phoneix? (Since they are *constantly* being reborn, by Drageran
standards, after all.)
Zerika did mention to Vlad that she was thinking of stepping down
in _Phoneix_; one supposes that she becomes Princess Zerika at
that point. Cawti's efforts to promote reform are likely to take
a bizarre turn or two after Norathar's accension, too. :]
What _I_ am most interested in, though, is what Vlad does to
get the Jhereg to stop trying to kill him; he has to do
*something*, because he may be setting survival time records,
but having him survive for another thirteen books _without_
resolving that would seem to be somewhat unlikely.
The question becomes 'what could *possibly* convince the
Jhereg to stop trying?' I'm not sure Verra herself could
manage it, so I become increasingly bemused trying to think
of a reason.
Graydon (does :the Lord of Castle Black: take place around
the same time as the Vlad books, or do we get to
see Morrolan in his younger, wilder, days when he
sacrificed whole villages to Verra?)
P Nielsen Hayden
>does :the Lord of Castle Black: take place around
>the same time as the Vlad books[?]
Yes.
Kenneth A McIsaac
>writes:
>>One thing that bothers me is that in Jhereg, Aliera tells Vlad about the
>>Dragon-Jhereg war which happened just before Adron's Disaster. Yet in 500
>Years
>>After, thre is no mention of it (that I saw, anyway...)
>Yes, I was also watching for that, and didn't see it; perhaps because
>(this time) none of the principals were Jhereg, we didn't see the
>actual maneuvering/plotting as such? The Dragons involved would get an
>*entirely* different picture of what was going on, if I'm not mistaken...
>Dave "who would've been the Dragon giving sanctuary to a Jhereg?" DeLaney
I agree with you two. The way I read the story in Jhereg, it was Adron who
was giving sanctuary to the Jhereg, and they were planning a coup together.
When the Jhereg got "shined" (man, I love that euphemism), Adron was forced
to "rely to heavily on magic and the spell got out of control". The story
we got here was that he did it because he was mad at the way Aliera was
being treated.
Also, the original story was that Mario was hired to kill the Emperor
because he used the Orb against the House, not that he was set up
once, and tried again because he wanted Aliera for himself. (Of course, it
was Aliera telling the story, and she may have wanted to hide the truth :).)
Maybe the explanation is that Paarfi, being a romanticist, would look for
the most romantic explanation. (Then again, we all wanted the story.)
Some other details I'd like to discuss:
Does this mean Mario is Devera's father??? Imagine, Verra's granddaughter a
crossbreed!!! (Of course, God help anyone who insults Aliera because of it.)
Did anyone notice that Paarfi is writing during the reign of Norathar the
Second, Dragon Empress of the Cycle of the Phoenix of the Great Cycle of the
Dragon? In other words that Zerika must have stepped down "soon" after the
events of _Phoenix_ (unless Paarfi writes one book per century or
something.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
And further more I am of the opinion that Carthage must be destroyed!
-Marcus Cato
Kenneth A McIsaac
>The question was, what caused Zerika to step down? Paarfi makes an
>offhand comment about the peaceful handover of power. Doesn't seem
>likely, Dragons taking over peacefully, unless there isn't a Phoenix
>Heir.
Maybe because Zerika is a "Reborn Phoenix" she just knows when enough is
enough. (Or maybe the Orb told her.)
And as for Phoenix heirs, there are currently no other Phoenixes
(Phoenices?) but apparently through the mysteries of cross breeding, it is
possible to produce some more. (Or maybe Sethra can ask the next Jenoine
she meets. I understand they have some experience in these matters.)
David Goldfarb
)And as for Phoenix heirs, there are currently no other Phoenixes
)(Phoenices?) but apparently through the mysteries of cross breeding, it is
)possible to produce some more.
Or, we could go get some pre-Disaster ones via time travel.
Or we could turn Zerika into an immortal, like Sethra is, and just
have her be Empress whenever we need a Phoenix Emperor. There're
lots of possibilities...
David Goldfarb |
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Hey, mister -- your ninja's dragging!"
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | -- MST3K, "Master Ninja I"
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu |
Sean Eric Fagan
>Or we could turn Zerika into an immortal, like Sethra is,
Sethra isn't immortal. She's undead. She did live for a very long time
(what, on the order of 200k years?), but seemed to die for some reason.
Probably an interesting story in that, wot? :)
Dawn Friedman
>gac...@seas.gwu.edu (Geoff A. Cohen) writes:
>
>>And did everyone notice that _Five Hundred Years After_ was submitted
>>to Empress Norathar? How do you suppose *that* happened?
>
>Easy: the conceit is that FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER was composed and
>published by Paarfi sometime (but not long) after the events of the
>Vlad books so far.
>
Now all we have to do is construct a sequence of events that leads from
the end of Phoenix/Athyra to an Empress Norathar. Obviously there can be
only one such sequence. "Easy."
Luckily for me, I never do plot speculation. But Vlad has certainly
gotten himself born in interesting times. _Phoenix Guards_ has a lazy
feel about the intrigue; everyone has centuries and centuries to play these
games in. Then a couple of cats leap up on the bookcases and sprint around
the room, knocking down everything in their path -- thump zoooom crash!
Even Paarfi's prose can't quite manage to slow things down.
--
--Dawn Sharon frie...@husc.harvard.edu
*************************************************************************
"These days you might feel a shaft of light make its way across your face
And when you do, you'll know how it was meant to be..."
Eyal Barnea
: Kenneth A McIsaac <KAMC...@ELECTRICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
: )And as for Phoenix heirs, there are currently no other Phoenixes
: )(Phoenices?) but apparently through the mysteries of cross breeding, it is
: )possible to produce some more.
: Or, we could go get some pre-Disaster ones via time travel.
: Or we could turn Zerika into an immortal, like Sethra is, and just
: have her be Empress whenever we need a Phoenix Emperor. There're
: lots of possibilities...
No good. What happens when we need another reborn phoenix?
--
***************************************************************************
* Eyal Barnea * I don't have opinions. The stuff posted above *
* ebarnea@garnet. * is an insidious plot designed by my enemies to... *
* acns.fsu.edu * Disregard the above. He..er.. I didn't mean it *
***************************************************************************
Dash Wendrzyk
|> [munch]
|> was giving sanctuary to the Jhereg, and they were planning a coup together.
|> When the Jhereg got "shined" (man, I love that euphemism), Adron was forced
|> to "rely to heavily on magic and the spell got out of control". The story
|> we got here was that he did it because he was mad at the way Aliera was
|> being treated.
Hmm, the way that I read it it wasn't the Jhereg who got shined which
forced him to rely too heavily upon magic, it was all the Dragon lords
that got shined during the course of the Jhereg-Dragon war.
|> Also, the original story was that Mario was hired to kill the Emperor
|> because he used the Orb against the House, not that he was set up
|> once, and tried again because he wanted Aliera for himself. (Of course, it
|> was Aliera telling the story, and she may have wanted to hide the truth :).)
|>
|> Maybe the explanation is that Paarfi, being a romanticist, would look for
|> the most romantic explanation. (Then again, we all wanted the story.)
Agreed.
|> Some other details I'd like to discuss:
|>
|> Does this mean Mario is Devera's father??? Imagine, Verra's granddaughter a
|> crossbreed!!! (Of course, God help anyone who insults Aliera because of it.)
|>
Assuming that Mario is still around. The way that I read it, Paarfi was
saying that Mario hadn't been heard from since Adron's disaster. I wonder
if that just implied that he hadn't done "work" since then. But, yeah,
I'd say that Mario is now the favorite to be Devera's father.
[munch]
Hey, did anyone else notice that Khaavren sent Zerika's parents out of
town right before the disaster. Wonder what happened to them (her
parents)? Guess we'll find out in Paths of the Dead.
Also, since the orb actually tried to pass to Adron, does that mean
that the Great Cycle ended on the reign of the Dragon, instead of
having two consective Phoenixes like the Vlad books tell us.
dash
BTW, how about rasfw's very own PNH making the acknowlegments page?
Way to go, Patrick.
Graydon
Aliera's understanding of the 2nd Dragon-Jhereg war may be a little
flawed, for starters, and Vlad's understanding of what Mario
was trying to do is likely to be wrong, just because he's getting
the information at the nth hand.
The Dragon-Jhereg was stuff doesn't impinge on :500 Years After:
_at all_, in terms of narrative; Paarfi has doubtless never heard
of it. It's possible that some of the ministers that were killed
in the process of Gharland/Greycat's coup attempt were Adron
supporters, and that their loss meant that Adron had to try the
direct military option, but that isn't pelucidly clear, either.
There is *no* way the fiercely line-proud Aliera is going to have
an half-breed child; while she may well still maintain her
relationship with Mario, she *can't* marry him, or have a child by
him. The speculation with which I am most familiar is that
Kieron will re-incarnate (because he said he would if she gave the
sword away) and Aliera will marry that person.
I think there is something significant to Vlad, Aliera, and Kieron
all being incarnate at once, and the Aliera and Sethra know this,
while Vlad hasn't figured it out yet, and Morrolan may not consider
it important.
It's been suguested that the whole underlying plot there is another
aspect of the 'three brothers' story that Brust has been having
so much fun with in other contexts. This, while it makes my
head hurt, has some basis to it - the question of whether Vlad
has gone from being the treacherous brother to the magic brother
is particularly interesting.
Graydon (who is starting to wonder if Kiera is Devera, all grown up)
Sean Eric Fagan
>There is *no* way the fiercely line-proud Aliera is going to have
>an half-breed child; while she may well still maintain her
>relationship with Mario, she *can't* marry him, or have a child by
>him.
Excuse me, but what House is Mario from? Some Jhereg, remember, are
there for various reasons, not because they were born into it. Such
as Kragar and Norathar.
It's entirely possible that Mario is a Dragon.
>Kieron will re-incarnate (because he said he would if she gave the
>sword away) and Aliera will marry that person.
No, he said he would come for it. Some do leave, you know. Like
Sethra and what's-his-name, the Athyra from _Athyra_.
Kenneth A McIsaac
>an half-breed child; while she may well still maintain her
>relationship with Mario, she *can't* marry him, or have a child by
>him. The speculation with which I am most familiar is that
>Kieron will re-incarnate (because he said he would if she gave the
>sword away) and Aliera will marry that person.
But what if Mario was a Dragon who got drummed out of the house (like
Kragar)? Hey, what if Mario _is_ Kragar!! (Yeah, right!:)) Actually, I've
always thought that Devera is supposed to be the reincarnated version of
Kieron. Why, you ask? Just because I can't figure out another reason for
her random appearances. Does anyone else know what her significance is?
And do we _know_ Aliera gave the sword away? She no longer uses it, but it
may be hanging on a wall at the Keep of the Lord Redface (assuming it
survived the Interregnum).
>I think there is something significant to Vlad, Aliera, and Kieron
>all being incarnate at once, and the Aliera and Sethra know this,
>while Vlad hasn't figured it out yet, and Morrolan may not consider
>it important.
>
>It's been suguested that the whole underlying plot there is another
>aspect of the 'three brothers' story that Brust has been having
>so much fun with in other contexts. This, while it makes my
>head hurt, has some basis to it - the question of whether Vlad
>has gone from being the treacherous brother to the magic brother
>is particularly interesting.
Can you run down this speculation for me (I'm sorry if it makes your head
hurt)? I don't think I've ever heard it and boy, would I like to.
>Graydon (who is starting to wonder if Kiera is Devera, all grown up)
Hmmm, not bad. I've always thought that Kiera is an old friend of Vlad's
mother, which explains why she's so nice to him, but I have no logical basis
for it.
Kenneth A McIsaac
>From: da...@sulu.orl.mmc.com (Dash Wendrzyk)
>Subject: Re: Brust: 500 Years After (spoilers)
>Date: 11 Apr 1994 16:26:47 GMT
>Keywords: Brust
>Assuming that Mario is still around. The way that I read it, Paarfi was
>saying that Mario hadn't been heard from since Adron's disaster. I wonder
>if that just implied that he hadn't done "work" since then. But, yeah,
>I'd say that Mario is now the favorite to be Devera's father.
Vlad seems to think he's still around: Cawti moved "with a fluid grace,
reminiscent of Mario" "'Honestly Vlad, you are harder to help than Mario is
to sneak up on'" "The Imperial investigators shrugged and said 'Mario did
it'" "For the kind of money he was talking about, he could hire Mario!" Of
course, at one point he also calls him a "possibly legendary assassin", so
maybe he's not so sure after all.
One other thing that I wonder about: these famous floating castles of the
e'Drien line. We've known all along that they existed prior to the
Interregnum, and that they crash landed at the time of Adron's Disaster,
but... How do you get to one without teleporting? Isn't a mile straight up
an awful long way to levitate?
Graydon
>>an half-breed child; while she may well still maintain her
>>relationship with Mario, she *can't* marry him, or have a child by
>>him. The speculation with which I am most familiar is that
>>Kieron will re-incarnate (because he said he would if she gave the
>>sword away) and Aliera will marry that person.
>But what if Mario was a Dragon who got drummed out of the house (like
>Kragar)? Hey, what if Mario _is_ Kragar!! (Yeah, right!:))
political machinations while a minor child, not for anything that
she personally had done. If Mario's out becuase he did something,
he's *out*, period, end of sentence, full stop.
Brust has stated that Mario is *not* Kragar, and that Mario is
indeed still around. I will note that the descriptions of
Mario and Kragar don't match - Vlad isn't Dragerean, but he's
reasonably sensitive to their looks, and he describes Kragar
as being completely average looking, while Mario's looks give
Aliera (who is notable fussy) lust fits.
>Actually, I've
>always thought that Devera is supposed to be the reincarnated version of
>Kieron. Why, you ask? Just because I can't figure out another reason for
>her random appearances. Does anyone else know what her significance is?
puzzling - who *did* Aliera marry?), and there is considerable
speculation that she's important w.r.t. fixing the cycle, somehow.
Her character and the of Kieron the Conqueror would not seem to
be very similar, somehow.
>And do we _know_ Aliera gave the sword away? She no longer uses it, but it
>may be hanging on a wall at the Keep of the Lord Redface (assuming it
>survived the Interregnum).
quote you which book, though. (It might be Jhereg, come to that.)
>>[Significance of 'Vlad', 'Aliera', and 'Kieron' all be incarnate]
>>It's been suguested that the whole underlying plot there is another
>>aspect of the 'three brothers' story that Brust has been having
>>so much fun with in other contexts. This, while it makes my
>>head hurt, has some basis to it - the question of whether Vlad
>>has gone from being the treacherous brother to the magic brother
>>is particularly interesting.
>Can you run down this speculation for me (I'm sorry if it makes your head
>hurt)? I don't think I've ever heard it and boy, would I like to.
and :Gypsy:; the idea is that the souls of Aliera, Vlad, and Kieron
comprise such a triad, so that when they are working together, they
can have more of an effect than would otherwise be mortally achievable.
First time around, Aliera was the Magic Brother, Kieron was the
Faithful Brother, and Vlad was the Treacherous Brother. Is this
still the case if Kieron incarnates? Aliera arguably betrayed
Kieron over the sword; Vlad betrayed the Jhereg, but does
betraying the Jhereg to be faithful to principles (particularly
when Vlad was _responding_ to treachery) count?
Given Brust's distaste for cut and dried statements, this could
turn into a truly fearsome ball of yarn. (Particularly if
:Dragon: is about the formation of the Empire, when Vlad was
Dolivar.)
Graydon (who likes the friend-of-Vlad's-Mother theory about Kiera)
Dash Wendrzyk
|> >an half-breed child; while she may well still maintain her
|> >relationship with Mario, she *can't* marry him, or have a child by
|> >him. The speculation with which I am most familiar is that
|> >Kieron will re-incarnate (because he said he would if she gave the
|> >sword away) and Aliera will marry that person.
|>
|> But what if Mario was a Dragon who got drummed out of the house (like
|> Kragar)? Hey, what if Mario _is_ Kragar!! (Yeah, right!:)) Actually, I've
|> always thought that Devera is supposed to be the reincarnated version of
|> Kieron. Why, you ask? Just because I can't figure out another reason for
|> her random appearances. Does anyone else know what her significance is?
Yeah, bummer. I guess the Mario == Kragar speculation has pretty much
been shot.
|> And do we _know_ Aliera gave the sword away? She no longer uses it, but it
|> may be hanging on a wall at the Keep of the Lord Redface (assuming it
|> survived the Interregnum).
|>
Yes, we do. In _Teckla_, I believe, there is an offhand remark that
Aliera gave Kieron's sword to Sethra the Younger, and got herself one
more her size (I assume the "size" thing was a joke).
[Three gypsy brother reference munched because it makes my head
hurt too.]
dash
David Hawkins
>Kragar)? Hey, what if Mario _is_ Kragar!! (Yeah, right!:)) Actually, I've
Mario is not a Dragon. There's a bit in 500 Years After where he has
to use clay (or something) to disguise his face to make it look like a
Dragon.
Separate question: [sorry if I missed earlier discussion, but I
just read the book last night] -- now that this book is out, folks
know how to kill the person the Orb protects, right? The details to
Mario's method are now known, so couldn't someone else do it?
Might not work against Norathor (sp?) though, since she's an assasin
in her own right. ;-)
later, david
--
David Hawkins dh...@netcom.com
The secret of being a bore is to tell everything. -- Voltaire
Erica Liebman Sadun
>>an half-breed child; while she may well still maintain her
>>relationship with Mario, she *can't* marry him, or have a child by
>>him. The speculation with which I am most familiar is that
>>Kieron will re-incarnate (because he said he would if she gave the
>>sword away) and Aliera will marry that person.
>But what if Mario was a Dragon who got drummed out of the house (like
>Kragar)? Hey, what if Mario _is_ Kragar!! (Yeah, right!:)) Actually, I've
>always thought that Devera is supposed to be the reincarnated version of
>Kieron. Why, you ask? Just because I can't figure out another reason for
>her random appearances. Does anyone else know what her significance is?
1. Aliera will not have a half breed child except with a god.
2. Kragar is not well thought of by Aliera "That Yendi..." If he was
Mario then he must have done something naughty by the time Aliera
reshows up to change her opinion.
3. He still manages to sit next to her at the end of Jhereg.
4. He's a pure blood dragon (even if he is expelled)
5. Mario is described as a nondescript young Jhereg. Not an expelled
dragon. Mario wears house-Jhereg clothes up to the point of him becoming
a grey mist. I believe he is saved at the same time Aliera is. Perhaps
he reincarnates as say, a Dragon, who is at heart a Jhereg and who gets
expelled.
>And do we _know_ Aliera gave the sword away? She no longer uses it, but it
>may be hanging on a wall at the Keep of the Lord Redface (assuming it
>survived the Interregnum).
>>I think there is something significant to Vlad, Aliera, and Kieron
>>all being incarnate at once, and the Aliera and Sethra know this,
>>while Vlad hasn't figured it out yet, and Morrolan may not consider
>>it important.
Well let's see. We just finished the first major cycle of the empire.
(A cycle of cycles). We have the first Phoenix reborn but the rest
of the house is dead. The orb has been reborn too. The founders of
the empire are all on hand once again just at the same propitious time.
Hmmmm. I suspect it means nothing. :)
>>It's been suguested that the whole underlying plot there is another
>>aspect of the 'three brothers' story that Brust has been having
>>so much fun with in other contexts. This, while it makes my
>>head hurt, has some basis to it - the question of whether Vlad
>>has gone from being the treacherous brother to the magic brother
>>is particularly interesting.
Four brothers, I believe, in brokedown palace.
>Hmmm, not bad. I've always thought that Kiera is an old friend of Vlad's
>mother, which explains why she's so nice to him, but I have no logical basis
>for it.
I always figured her for either Kieron reborn (notice the name and the
friendship with Aliera) or the avatar of Verra (ditto).
If she is Verra in disguise, her actions make more sense--especially if
Verra was "the witch" vlad's father married. On the other hand, doesn't
Verra seem just a bit like a Jenoine?
If the elves are dragaerens,
the dwarves are serioli,
the humans are easterners,
the catcentaurs themselves,
then are the Jenoine the Demons? and if so, does that make Cawti 1/4
demon?
Erica
===========================ERICA SADUN================================
Grep foo whilst ye may, oh daemons of the Spring...
er...@cc.gatech.edu
======================================================================
Steven Kasow
>
>mother, which explains why she's so nice to him, but I have no logical basis
>for it.
>
Hmmm indeed! A surprisingly tempting idea. Perhaps Devera/Kiera is Aliera's
daughter by Mario. Aliera, a Dragon, is extremely short for a Dragaeran,
and has "something like her father's chin without Adron's extreme sharpness."
Mario is described as a small, handsome man with no distinguishing features.
This would be consistent with Kiera's being short for a Dragaeran, with
a sharp angular face. This would also help explain just _how_ Kiera goes
about getting a vial of the blood of a goddess - presumably you can't just
walk up and stab them with a dagger. :-)
Steven Kasow
sk...@columbia.edu
---
Azhural raised his staff. "It's fifteen hundred miles to Ankh-Morpork," he
said. "We've got three hundred and sixty-three elephants, fifty carts of
forage, the monsoon's about to break and we're wearing... we're wearing...
sort of things, like glass, only dark... dark glass things on our eyes..."
-- (Terry Pratchett, Moving Pictures)
David DeLaney
>e'Drien line. We've known all along that they existed prior to the
>Interregnum, and that they crash landed at the time of Adron's Disaster,
>but... How do you get to one without teleporting? Isn't a mile straight up
>an awful long way to levitate?
Think a moment: sorcery was a lot less powerful before the Disaster. Therefore
they wouldn't have been floating a mile up (falling 100 feet is probably enough
to seriously destroy any given large stone structure, especially if it's not
built to fall). Therefore, levitating up to them would *probably* be about the
same Degree of Difficulty as teleporting there now.
Dave "Anyone with quotable evidence otherwise, feel free to flame" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; WARNING: DO NOT PUT BEANS IN YOUR EARS!
Disclaimer: UTK agree with me? Yeah, right...; Thinking about this disclaimer__
may cause offense, brain seizure, confusion, or particle physics. VRbeableDJK\/
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd for the net.legends FAQ + miniFAQs, or anon-ftp
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <KAMCISAA.3...@electrical.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>,
>Kenneth A McIsaac <KAMC...@ELECTRICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>Graydon (who is starting to wonder if Kiera is Devera, all grown up)
>>
>>Hmmm, not bad. I've always thought that Kiera is an old friend of Vlad's
>>mother, which explains why she's so nice to him, but I have no logical basis
>>for it.
>>
>Hmmm indeed! A surprisingly tempting idea. Perhaps Devera/Kiera is Aliera's
>daughter by Mario.
Blind alley. Take my word for it.
Betsy Perry
Devera's father. He said, "No, Devera's father is someone with more
... lineage." (Ellipses his.) This would seem to rule out Kragar,
Mario, Loiosh, and just about anybody else we've met to date.
Brust also said that there _will_ be a Phoenix Heir, and that Devera
will be involved in making such possible.
Bear in mind that (1) I may have misremembered the conversation (2)
Brust may have changed his mind and (3) Brust is a notably tricky guy.
--
Betsy Hanes Perry bet...@vnet.net
(formerly bet...@apollo.HP.com)
Graydon
bet...@char.vnet.net (Betsy Perry) writes:
>Some years ago, early in the series, I asked Brust if Morrolan was
>Devera's father. He said, "No, Devera's father is someone with more
>... lineage." (Ellipses his.) This would seem to rule out Kragar,
>Mario, Loiosh, and just about anybody else we've met to date.
The speculation/rumour/insider info with which I am most familiar
sugguests that Kieron re-incarnates (presumably into the e'Kieron
line of the House of the Dragon) and marries Aliera. Hopefully
for poor Morrolan's peace of mind, they will move out and live
somewhere _else_.
>Brust also said that there _will_ be a Phoenix Heir, and that Devera
>will be involved in making such possible.
>Bear in mind that (1) I may have misremembered the conversation (2)
>Brust may have changed his mind and (3) Brust is a notably tricky guy.
I can think of two mechanisms off the top of my head; the first is
that Devera can time travel, as indicated by her tendency to show
up before she is born. If she's capable of doing this for large
spans of time, it seems not unlikely that she's going to show up
in the home of some member of the House of the Phoenix and say
'how would you like to marry the Empress?'
The second is that they, whomever 'they' were, would not consider
one a Phoenix unless an actuall Phoenix is seen to pass over at
the time of one's birth; this sugguests that a Phoenix passing
over might be regarded as indicating that the child _belongs_ in
the House of the Pheonix, irrespective of the House of their parents.
This does have the difficulty of ignoring the actual-descent-from
-the-beastie basis for the Drageran Houses (anyone else want to
know if a Lavode is a Drageran animal?); perhaps Devera will take
after her mother, and extend Aliera's genetic reasearch into
recombinant DNA (or, really DGM - Dragerean Genetic Material)
research.
Maybe Devera is going to *make* a Phoenix.
Maybe Devera is going to make a Phoenix out of Vlad, thus getting
him off the hook with the Jhereg by convincing everyone that he's
dead (which ought not to be too hard if the procedure starts with
disolving him part-way in chaos), and thereby arranging for the kid
Noish-pa is so concerned about at the same time! :]
Oh yeah - the scene in Yendi when Devera tells Vlad that 'Uncle
'Rolan's really worried' ought to make it cannon that Morrolan
isn't her father.
Graydon, whose head is hurting again
David Goldfarb
)...Devera can time travel, as indicated by her tendency to show
)up before she is born. If she's capable of doing this for large
)spans of time...
Remember the little girl who shows up in _The Phoenix
Guards_ to inform Adron of Aliera's birth?
David Goldfarb |"Sunset over Houma. The rains have stopped.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | Clouds like plugs of bloodied cotton wool dab
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | ineffectually at the slashed wrists of the sky."
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu | -- Alan Moore
Graydon
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
>Graydon <SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> wrote:
>)...Devera can time travel, as indicated by her tendency to show
>)up before she is born. If she's capable of doing this for large
>)spans of time...
> Remember the little girl who shows up in _The Phoenix
>Guards_ to inform Adron of Aliera's birth?
Yep, ok, so she can certainly grab someone from before the
Interregnum.
Even if it does seem too straightforward, somehow.
Graydon
Scott Herod
>gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
>>Graydon <SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> wrote:
>>)...Devera can time travel, as indicated by her tendency to show
>>)up before she is born. If she's capable of doing this for large
>>)spans of time...
>> Remember the little girl who shows up in _The Phoenix
>>Guards_ to inform Adron of Aliera's birth?
>
She also shows up in _Brokedown Palace_. Just started rereading it.
Then I've got to find a copy of _500 Years After_.
Scott
(she...@colorado.edu)
Fred A Haskell
>Blind alley. Take my word for it.
Tsk, Patrick. You'll spoil their fun.... <g>
Just got ORCA back to Steve today with my comments. I feel good about them.
ORCA. My. Oh, my. What fun they'll have with =it=.....
--
Fred A. Levy Haskell | "My will is strong but my won't is weak."
fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu | -- Cole Porter
Kenneth A McIsaac
>From: fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Fred A Haskell)
>Subject: Re: Brust: 500 Years After (spoilers)
>Date: Sun, 17 Apr 1994 04:49:29 GMT
>In <2omjc0$k...@panix2.panix.com> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) writes:
>>Blind alley. Take my word for it.
>Tsk, Patrick. You'll spoil their fun.... <g>
>Just got ORCA back to Steve today with my comments. I feel good about them.
>ORCA. My. Oh, my. What fun they'll have with =it=.....
Can you at least tell us if that darn narrative style was dropped in
favour of the good ol' first person? I mean, what is the use of reading
about Vlad if you can't hear him tell Loiosh to shut up every two
paragraphs?
Kenneth A McIsaac
>From: sherod@newton (Scott Herod)
>Subject: Re: Brust: Devera's father
>Date: 17 Apr 1994 04:25:56 GMT
>Keywords: Brust
She sure does. And she says, "He sent me back to find out more about...but
I'm not supposed to say that." Who is "He" and what was she investigating?
-Ken (who is kicking himself for not having recognized Devera as the young
lass who told Adron about his baby girl)
Mark Alan Lang
father by Kenneth A McIsaac@ELECTR
> lass who told Adron about his baby girl)
How is this so, though? TPG only says that a small girl dashes in,
gives Adron a not, and dashes away. Where does it suggest that she was
Devera?
Dash Wendrzyk
Well, since Brust makes a point of telling us that she did not show up in
500YA, we might assume that she did in fact show up somewhere in TPG.
Does that make any sense?
dash
Sean Eric Fagan
> How is this so, though? TPG only says that a small girl dashes in,
>gives Adron a not, and dashes away. Where does it suggest that she was
>Devera?
Up until _Five Hundred Years After_ (and maybe _Agyar_), Devera was in
every Brust book. He even makes a comment about it in _The Sun, the
Moon, and the Stars_ (the guy painting brushes in a little girl who he
says somehow works her way into all of his paintings).
I have not been able to find her in _Agyar_ or FHYA. In the 'About the
Author' section at the end of FHYA, Paarfi states that Devera is not in
it; he could be lying, though.
So, even though there is no explicit naming, it's undoubtedly her, at
least in _The Phoenix Guards_.
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
> In article <ohgywO600iUx43=5...@andrew.cmu.edu> Mark Alan Lang <Elis...@CMU.EDU> writes:
>> How is this so, though? TPG only says that a small girl dashes in,
>>gives Adron a not, and dashes away. Where does it suggest that she was
>>Devera?
>
> Up until _Five Hundred Years After_ (and maybe _Agyar_), Devera was in
> every Brust book. He even makes a comment about it in _The Sun, the
> Moon, and the Stars_ (the guy painting brushes in a little girl who he
> says somehow works her way into all of his paintings).
>
> I have not been able to find her in _Agyar_ or FHYA. In the 'About the
> Author' section at the end of FHYA, Paarfi states that Devera is not in
> it; he could be lying, though.
Could this, since Paarfi is fictional, amount to her being in it?
I'm not sure where this level of fiction/non-fiction leaves off.
Since I think I should re-read _Agyar_ anyway, I'll look. I'm
in the middle of _Taltos_ again, and I notice a fine fun related bit.
It relates to Vlad's alias after his first work while he's laying low.
When given a message, the person giving it to Vlad pronounces it Mawdyear,
which Vlad says sounds close enough, without mentioning the name he's using.
Maybe Magyar?
--
"Sirs and ladies, I will make this guarantee: if, upon taking
my remedies, you mortify and die, you return the unused medicine
for a partial refund. Where else will you hear such a guarantee?"
Shimrod in "Lyonesse: Suldrun's Garden", by Jack Vance
___ Gregg Parmentier ___ parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu ___
Chad C. D'Amour Orzel
<parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu> wrote:
>In article <CoIt0...@kithrup.com>, s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
>> Up until _Five Hundred Years After_ (and maybe _Agyar_), Devera was in
>> every Brust book. He even makes a comment about it in _The Sun, the
>> Moon, and the Stars_ (the guy painting brushes in a little girl who he
>> says somehow works her way into all of his paintings).
>>
>> I have not been able to find her in _Agyar_ or FHYA. In the 'About the
>> Author' section at the end of FHYA, Paarfi states that Devera is not in
>> it; he could be lying, though.
>
> Could this, since Paarfi is fictional, amount to her being in it?
>I'm not sure where this level of fiction/non-fiction leaves off.
>
> Since I think I should re-read _Agyar_ anyway, I'll look.
I've read and re-read _Agyar_ several times, now, and there's no mention in
it of anyone who is clearly Devera. In fact, I don't think there are any
female children at all...
If she's in there, Steve Brust is far too subtle for me...
It's possible that _Agyar_, being a completely different sort of story, just
"doesn't count" for some reason. Is Devera in _Cowboy Feng's_? Or _The Sun
the Moon and the Stars_? (Which I _still_ haven't managed to find. I'm
kicking myself for not buying it when it first came out (wasn't into Brust
then...))
I'm not sure how Paarfi's reference plays out. Maybe that should count.
Dunno.
Later,
OilCan
Rob Caplan
>Author' section at the end of FHYA, Paarfi states that Devera is not in
>it; he could be lying, though.
Does being mentioned (and even named) in the About the Author count as
an "appearance"?
Rob Caplan
cap...@cs.stanford.edu
Fred A Haskell
>Can you at least tell us if that darn narrative style was dropped in
>favour of the good ol' first person? I mean, what is the use of reading
>about Vlad if you can't hear him tell Loiosh to shut up every two
>paragraphs?
Sorry you didn't like the viewpoint in Athyra. Personally, I rather liked
getting the chance to see Vlad from the outside, and didn't quite believe
Steve when he told me he had been getting flack about it. AH well, I guess
that's what makes horseraces.
To answer, yes and no. Orca is written in a first-person viewpoint (I believe
it's called [Patrick? is that the technical term for it?]). However, the
narrator of the book (the viewpoint character) is not Vlad. But on the other
hand, about half the chapters are Vlad telling this person the events which
happened to him, which is very close, although not identical, to the feel
when Vlad is the narrator of a book. So you get to read some of the
conversations between Loiosh and Vlad, yes....
What's the use? I guess mileage varies. Myself, I like the fact that Steve
gets bored more rapidly than I do, and that he's therefore always setting
himself at least one new challenge when he sits down to write "the next"
book. The series aren't just so much sausage that gets sliced whenever
there's enough to fill a book (which seems to be the way so many series
books are these days)--there's something new and different every time, even
though it's a more-or-less continuing story about continuing characters.
I also love his sense of humor and whimsy, which gets expressed in more
places than just the interchanges between Vlad and Loiosh. And I think he's
pretty good at basic "words together." And..... Well, there's a lot I
like about Steve's writing.
Sean Eric Fagan
>It's possible that _Agyar_, being a completely different sort of story, just
>"doesn't count" for some reason. Is Devera in _Cowboy Feng's_? Or _The Sun
>the Moon and the Stars_?
Sheesh. Don't you read articles in a thread? I said under what circumstances
she appeared in in tStMatS. I also said that she was in every Brust book until
_Agyar_ and _Five Hundred Years After_.
So, to answer your question quite explicitly, yes, she is in _Cowboy Feng's
Space Bar and Grill_. She is in _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_. She
might not be in _The Gypsy_, but it's been a while since I've read it, so
she might be. She most definitely is in _To Reign in Hell_, which is even
more different than _Agyar_ is.
Sean Eric Fagan
>Does being mentioned (and even named) in the About the Author count as
>an "appearance"?
I don't think so, because she actually shows up in every other case, although
we don't know her name until (I think) _Brokedown Palace_. Or maybe
_Yendi_ (I don't know which was published first).
Chad C. D'Amour Orzel
>Sheesh. Don't you read articles in a thread? I said under what circumstances
>she appeared in in tStMatS. I also said that she was in every Brust book until
>_Agyar_ and _Five Hundred Years After_.
>
in other areas, and haven't kept up with the Brust threads as carefully as
usual. Anyway, I was responding to someone else's question. Such is Usenet.
The question re: tStMatS was an honest one- I haven't read it yet (can't
seem to find a copy these days...). _Cowboy Feng's_ I read once, right
after it came out, and I can't even recall the _plot_ let alone if Devera
was in it. She doesn't seem to be in _The Gypsy_, either, but then I didn't
read it that carefully. Anyway, do collaborations count?
Sorry to have offended your sensibilities...
Later,
OilCan
Rebecca Leann Smit Crowley
: _Cowboy Feng's_ I read once, right
: after it came out, and I can't even recall the _plot_
That would be the one where the bar makes a time hop every time it gets
nuked. Unhappy romance. Weird political underpinnings of plot
Revealed At The End.
I liked it, but a lot of other people seemed not to have.
--
Rebecca Crowley standard disclaimers apply rcro...@zso.dec.com
I laughed, I cried, I fell down -- it changed my life.
Jonathan M. Lennox
Chad C. D'Amour Orzel <oil...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>[Devera] doesn't seem to be in _The Gypsy_, either, but then I didn't
>read it that carefully. Anyway, do collaborations count?
Page 40, Tor PB, Csucskari is having visions of past memories:
"Another was of a small girl, who seemed to be the old woman with
brown eyes at the same time, only she laughed as if she knew it were
only a game."
I assumed this was the Devera reference in Gypsy, though it's
certainly obscure. There aren't any other young girls appearing
anywhere in the book, as far as I can tell.
--
Jonathan Lennox
jona...@columbia.edu
Sean Eric Fagan
>I liked [Cowboy Feng's], but a lot of other people seemed not to have.
Probably because it started out seeming like it was a fantasy (defined,
in this case, as something in which all the "neat" stuff is just tossed
out without explanation), but turned into a pretty good science fiction
story.
It was also somewhat depressing.
But I liked it a lot.
David Gibbs
Graydon <SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> wrote:
>(anyone else want to know if a Lavode is a Drageran animal?);
I don't think a Lavode is a Dragerean animal. The Lavodes
were an elite group of warriors at one point -- and that is
the only other reference I can think of to the term Lavode.
(Than, of course, Sethra Lavode.)
Now, the interesting question -- is Sethra Lavode's house
ever specified? (How about Sethra the younger?)
I've always thought she was a Dragon, since her friends
seemed to be (primarily) from that house, and she seemed
to take an interest in that house's politics.
(A Phoenix seems unlikely; a Dzur would either have been
killed, or died of boredom by now; Jhereg, Lyorn, Orca and T
eckla are all right out; she's too straight forward for Yendi --
or is running a REALLY deep and long plan (I kind of like
that idea -- it is her plots that have been running the
empire for the last (however many) years); a Hawk (since
they are often sorcerors) is not impossible, but, she
seems to helpful; and we don't really know the other
houses well enough to eliminate them.)
-David
(dag...@qnx.com)
David DeLaney
>All die, and oh! the embarrassment...
Source, please? I remember reading (and enjoying) this story in high school -
but want specifics.
Dave "betcha never expected to hear *that* from WoB" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; WARNING: DO NOT PUT BEANS IN YOUR EARS!
Disclaimer: UTK agree with me? Yeah, right...; Thinking about this disclaimer__
may cause offense, brain seizure, confusion, or particle physics. VRbeableDJK\/
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd for net.legends FAQ+miniFAQs or anon-ftp in pub
David Goldfarb
)SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
)>All die, and oh! the embarrassment...
)
)Source, please? I remember reading (and enjoying) this story in high school -
)but want specifics.
"A !Tangled Web", by Joe Haldeman. First published in _Analog_
in the mid-'80s sometime; I'm pretty sure it was in a Haldeman collection
as well, but I don't recall the title of the book.
David Goldfarb |
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Oh, death from on high. Neat."
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | -- Tom Servo, Mystery Science Theater 3000
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu | "Gamera"
Andrew F. Nelson
>SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
>>All die, and oh! the embarrassment...
>
>Source, please? I remember reading (and enjoying) this story in high school -
>but want specifics.
Joe Haldeman, in (I think _Dealing in Futures_).
spoilers
I'm pretty sure this is in the Confederacion (sp) universe. The main
character is bidding for a concession for a Hotel/Entertainment
center. Any time an error in etiquette is made you get to tell a
grisly humorous tale in which 'All die, Oh the Embarrassment'.
What a line!
>Dave "betcha never expected to hear *that* from WoB" DeLaney
>--
>David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; WARNING: DO NOT PUT BEANS IN YOUR EARS!
--
Andy Nelson |Disclaimer:The University of Arizona
an...@neutrino.physics.arizona.edu|only acknowledges my existence when they
an...@neutron.physics.arizona.edu |want money from me. The feeling's mutual:-)
Graydon
dag...@qnx.com (David Gibbs) writes:
>In article <16F9A12A8...@qucdn.queensu.ca>,
>Graydon <SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> wrote:
>>(anyone else want to know if a Lavode is a Drageran animal?);
>
>I don't think a Lavode is a Dragerean animal. The Lavodes
>were an elite group of warriors at one point -- and that is
>the only other reference I can think of to the term Lavode.
>(Than, of course, Sethra Lavode.)
>
>Now, the interesting question -- is Sethra Lavode's house
>ever specified? (How about Sethra the younger?)
Sethra talks to a Dzur and describes another Dzur as telling
her things that one would not ordinarily tell someone outside
one's own House; on the other hand, Morrolan describes her as
a Dzurlord in :Taltos:.
Coupled with Parfi's description of her arms (which are so old
that no one can read the motto on the copies old enough to perserve
the motto!) as being a dragon's head and a dzur's claw, the
obvious conclusion is that Sethra is a Dragon/Dzur cross.
No one cares, of course - Sethra is Sethra.
Sethra the Younger is a Dragon - she wanted to be Warlord, after
all - and Parfi gives 'Lavode' as being a Serioli word meaning
either 'of mountains' or 'flexible' (I think; I remember the
first exactly, but not the last, and it's an annoyance to find)
but that isn't conclusive. Sethra has, after all, been around
for a quarter of a million years and her name could quite
easily have worked its way into the Serioli language (and both
the given meaning suite her quite well.)
So it's still a bit of an open question as to what Sethra's
House affiliation is, I think.
Graydon
Sean Eric Fagan
>*spoilers for :Five Hundred Years After: and :Taltos:*
>that no one can read the motto on the copies old enough to perserve
>the motto!) as being a dragon's head and a dzur's claw, the
>obvious conclusion is that Sethra is a Dragon/Dzur cross.
>No one cares, of course - Sethra is Sethra.
Well, something to bear in mind is that Sethra Lavode has been around
long enough that the other Houses may have changed since.
Vlad describes her, in _Taltos_ I think, as having the features of
both a Dzur and a Dragon.
>So it's still a bit of an open question as to what Sethra's
>House affiliation is, I think.
Face it. She predates the Houses.
Graydon
>>*spoilers for :Five Hundred Years After: and :Taltos:*
>
>long enough that the other Houses may have changed since.
>
>Vlad describes her, in _Taltos_ I think, as having the features of
>both a Dzur and a Dragon.
FHYA could be taken as dancing around this point when he's discussing
her lineage block.)
The organization of the Houses certainly could have, but I don't see
how the genetic makeup of any house could have, except the Jhereg
mish-mash.
>>So it's still a bit of an open question as to what Sethra's
>>House affiliation is, I think.
>Face it. She predates the Houses.
yes. Sethra is a Drageran, however, and the basis of the Houses
is genetic, so it is a meaningful question to ask what House
Sethra belongs to, both in genetic terms (Dragon, Dzur, Dragon/Dzur
crossbreed, and member of an otherwise extinct tribe being the
candidates there; I favour the later two, probably the halfbreed),
and in terms of the present political system in the Empire.
Sethra has been Warlord - so, was she the only non-Dragon warlord,
have there been other non-Dragon Warlords, or was she then a member
of the House of the Dragon?
Sethra is announced as 'Sethra Lavode, Baroness of Dzur Mountain
and Evirons' more than once - therefor, she is a noble and has
a place in the Empire's formal feudal structure. Which House?
If there _is_ a precedent for Houseless nobility, that might be
important to Vlad, who doesn't want to stay in the Jhereg, but
has no where else to go.
Graydon
David DeLaney
>Now, the interesting question -- is Sethra Lavode's house
>ever specified? (How about Sethra the younger?)
>I've always thought she was a Dragon, since her friends
>seemed to be (primarily) from that house, and she seemed
>to take an interest in that house's politics.
>(A Phoenix seems unlikely; a Dzur would either have been
>killed, or died of boredom by now; Jhereg, Lyorn, Orca and T
>eckla are all right out; she's too straight forward for Yendi --
>or is running a REALLY deep and long plan (I kind of like
>that idea -- it is her plots that have been running the
>empire for the last (however many) years); a Hawk (since
>they are often sorcerors) is not impossible, but, she
>seems to helpful; and we don't really know the other
>houses well enough to eliminate them.)
Remember, please, that Sethra is "literally older than the Empire"; it's quite
possible that she dates from before the Houses were established (and certainly
from before the Jhereg came to be). On the other hand, she may be from one of
the "failed" houses that we hear about in one of the history expositions
early on, and we have *no* idea what those were or what their animals were.
Sethra the Younger's house I'm pretty sure is given at least once (maybe in
the explanation of the Yendi's plot in Yendi?).
Dave "as far as *I* remember, anyway" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; WARNING: DO NOT PUT BEANS IN YOUR EARS!
Emma Pease
>
>Sethra predates the formal existence of Houses within the Empire,
>yes. Sethra is a Drageran, however, and the basis of the Houses
>is genetic, so it is a meaningful question to ask what House
>Sethra belongs to, both in genetic terms (Dragon, Dzur, Dragon/Dzur
>crossbreed, and member of an otherwise extinct tribe being the
>candidates there; I favour the later two, probably the halfbreed),
>and in terms of the present political system in the Empire.
From 500YA, we learn that most of the Lavodes are either Dragons or
Dzur which seems to confirm a connection to one or the other or both.
>Sethra has been Warlord - so, was she the only non-Dragon warlord,
>have there been other non-Dragon Warlords, or was she then a member
>of the House of the Dragon?
>Sethra is announced as 'Sethra Lavode, Baroness of Dzur Mountain
>and Evirons' more than once - therefor, she is a noble and has
>a place in the Empire's formal feudal structure. Which House?
I suspect dragon. In Jhereg she is wearing a dragon pin which we
learn in one of the books all dragons wear with the eye jewels
indicating what line (unfortunately I don't have the book with me to
write down which jewels are in her dragon). I admit this only implies
that she is dragon. Evidence against would be that she is never given
a dragon lineage name (e'Kieron, e'Baritt, e'Lanya). She is also very
close to a fair number of dragons such as Adron and Aliera and when a
dragon/jhereg war seems possible in Jhereg, there is a definite
implication that she will be fighting on the dragon side. However
this only indicates her current status, her genetic status is still
mysterious (and also why is she so long lived).
On a slightly different tack, since it is possible to fight one's way
into the Dzur house (by defeating 17 picked champions) what is the
status of, let us say, a dragon who becomes a dzur. Is she a dzur, a
dragon, or both? I suspect Sethra would have no trouble fighting her
way into the Dzur if she wanted to.
>If there _is_ a precedent for Houseless nobility, that might be
>important to Vlad, who doesn't want to stay in the Jhereg, but
>has no where else to go.
I think Vlad has more important things to worry about. I believe
(extracting from a conversation, about the Phoenix Guards and whether
Jhereg could join, that Vlad has with Aliera(?)) that not all Jhereg
are involved in the 'business' so Vlad could fall into that category.
Emma
Net spinster
ps. In rereading Phoenix, I noticed two things. (1) Cawti is reading
Paarfi's histories. (2) Vlad makes a reference to the Lyorn Daro,
Countess of Whitecliff (when returning from the island after being
rescued). Is Daro a Tiassa (who likes dressing like a Lyorn) as in
500YA or a Lyorn? I can imagine Vlad making a mistake but not if she
is married to a certain well known Tiassa.
Joel Polowin
>Up until _Five Hundred Years After_ (and maybe _Agyar_), Devera was in
>every Brust book. He even makes a comment about it in _The Sun, the
>Moon, and the Stars_ (the guy painting brushes in a little girl who he
>says somehow works her way into all of his paintings).
I couldn't spot her in _Athyra_, and that irritated me because there
really aren't that many places where she could have popped in without
being noticed. Can someone clue me in, please?
Notice also that between the Prologue and Epilogue of _Athyra_, it's
quite clear that an athyra is a bird -- to cross back to another thread.
Joel
pol...@silicon.chem.queensu.ca, pol...@chem.queensu.ca,
polo...@qucdn.queensu.ca
Steven Greenland
Rebecca Leann Smit Crowley <rcro...@zso.dec.com> wrote:
[in re Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill]
>
>That would be the one where the bar makes a time hop every time it gets
>nuked. Unhappy romance. Weird political underpinnings of plot
>Revealed At The End.
>
>I liked it, but a lot of other people seemed not to have.
I think CFSBG was the only Brust I have been disappointed by (which
is an incredibly good record, btw). My main problem is that the
book is a _cheat_: the author kept vital information from the
reader instead of making the effort of creating a valid puzzle.
Also, the rather obvious HAGS/AIDS parallel was just a little too
simplistic.
I suspect Brust wanted to make some (valid) points about AIDS and
peoples' fear of disease and Cowboy Feng was the result.
--
Steve Greenland | ste...@neosoft.com | '91 SHO Mocha/Mocha |
The true metric of user friendliness is this: If this program were a
person, how long would it be before you punched it out?
Ron
Aliera as "the two dragons". i'll try and find it.
- Ron
--
(ron) rm9...@meibm10.cen.uiuc.edu
Scott Schwartz
in 500YA there is a sentence in which Paarfi refers to Sethra and
Aliera as "the two dragons". i'll try and find it.
Fine, but in Taltos Vlad is told that she is a Dzurlord. Her status is
deliberately ambiguous. Overanalyzing is pointless.
Joel Polowin
>> in 500YA there is a sentence in which Paarfi refers to Sethra and
>> Aliera as "the two dragons". i'll try and find it.
>
>Fine, but in Taltos Vlad is told that she is a Dzurlord. Her status is
>deliberately ambiguous. Overanalyzing is pointless.
Further, he's told this by Morrolan, who knows her much better than Paarfi
does. On the other hand, Sethra could very well have become a Dzurlord
by fighting her way into the House, past seventeen heroes, regardless of
her genetic heritage.
Still, I don't think that the usual rules apply to Sethra. I think she
predates the usual system. I have this hunch that she's the result of an
early experiment by the Jenoine, scenario something like the following:
[Jenoine-equivalent-of-hunchbacked-lab-assistant does the Jenoine equivalent
of lurching into the room]: "Mastah! Mastah! Experiment Q-17 is escaping!!
There's a little --"
Boss: "What?! Impossible. Q-17 -- that's the one with the genes from the
little cat and the little lizard?" [Longish pause, while assistant contrives
to look very guilty.] "WELL?"
Henchman: "I couldn't get genetic material from the little cat and lizard.
So instead I got material from the BIG cat and BIG lizard, Mastah. I'm
sorry, Mastah, so sorry --"
Boss: "WHAT?! Genes from the BIG cat and the BIG lizard, together?! That's
dangerous, even disastrous! Fool! Why didn't you tell me? But that still
shouldn't give the creature the power necessary to get out."
Henchman: "That's what I tried to tell you, Mastah! There was a young
female humanoid in the lab, opening the cages! And when I tried to chase
her, she just showed her teeth at me and disappeared!"
Boss: "All right. Let's see if we can find Q-17 before it gets into any
trouble. If we catch it quickly enough, we won't have to tell anyone about
it getting out..."
Joel
pol...@silicon.chem.queensu.ca, pol...@chem.queensu.ca,
polo...@qucdn.queensu.ca
Jeff Stehman
>Still, I don't think that the usual rules apply to Sethra. I think she
>predates the usual system. I have this hunch that she's the result of an
>early experiment by the Jenoine, scenario something like the following:
>[Jenoine-equivalent-of-hunchbacked-lab-assistant does the Jenoine equivalent
>of lurching into the room]: "Mastah! Mastah! Experiment Q-17 is escaping!!
>There's a little --"
[Much good stuff deleted.]
Is someone getting all this and forwarding it to Steven? It really should
be worked in somewhere.
--
Jeff Stehman
David Hawkins
Ron <rsm5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>in 500YA there is a sentence in which Paarfi refers to Sethra and
>Aliera as "the two dragons". i'll try and find it.
In Taltos [Vlad's first visit to Dzur Mountain], her servant, Chaz, is
wearing a dragon emblem. [page 23 or so?]. When Morrolon and Vlad get
to Deathgate Falls, we find out that Sethra went over at the Dzur
marker, not the Dragon marker, but who knows what that means?
later, david
--
David Hawkins dh...@netcom.com
"We grow tyrannical fighting tyranny." -- E.B. White
Sean Eric Fagan
>Has anyone else read Paarfi's comments about Sethra disappearing
>as being _recent_, from the point of view of 12 years into
>Norathar's reign? I wonder if something happens to her in Orca...
I hope she becomes a goddess finally :).
(Hell, I'd hate to see her dead. I named my snake after her and
everything.)
Ron
of Greycat, and son of Grita. who was his father? clearly a jhereg...
--
(ron) rm9...@meibm10.cen.uiuc.edu
Dash Wendrzyk
|> In article <CoIt0...@kithrup.com> s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
|> >Up until _Five Hundred Years After_ (and maybe _Agyar_), Devera was in
|> >every Brust book. He even makes a comment about it in _The Sun, the
|> >Moon, and the Stars_ (the guy painting brushes in a little girl who he
|> >says somehow works her way into all of his paintings).
|>
|> I couldn't spot her in _Athyra_, and that irritated me because there
|> really aren't that many places where she could have popped in without
|> being noticed. Can someone clue me in, please?
|>
[spoilers for _Agyar_ and _Athyra_ follow]
[and maybe some for _Cowboy Feng's_ too]
In _Athyra_ :
The 3rd time that Svan (I think that's his name) goes into trance
(or maybe the 2nd depending on the validility of the first time),
Svan talk to somebody who giggles like his sister.
In _Agyar_ :
Maybe she's disguised. At the beginning of Chapter 10, Agyar and
Jim are discussing Jim's family and there was something strange
about the little girl. The conversation goes something like:
"She was...different." <Jim>
"Was she retardeed?" <Agyar>
"No." <Jim>
"Was she crippled?" <Agyar>
"It doesn't matter...she was a good little girl all her life."
Then again, maybe not. When I get _Agyar_ back I'll give it a
thorough going over. Like I just did with _Cowboy Feng's_, which
actually took me 1 and 1/4 times before I found the reference.
I must admit, though, while I really didn't enjoy _Feng_ the first
time that I ever read it, I found that I really enjoyed it the
second time.
Speaking of _Feng's_ though, I noticed that on the final page where
the credits for the songs are given, Brust has two songs credited
to him. The first spells his name Steven Brust, the second Stephen
Brust. Of course, the books <all> have Steven on the title page.
I was just curious whether it was deliberate or a typo, since both
quotes in the chapter headings are attributed to the main
character.
dash
David Hawkins
David DeLaney <d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> wrote:
>Sethra the Younger's house I'm pretty sure is given at least once (maybe in
>the explanation of the Yendi's plot in Yendi?).
Sethra the Younger is a Dragon. She's on the list of Dragons in
sucession to become Warlord. [Yendi] But she's an apprentice, so
she's not necessarily of the same house as the Elder.
later, david
--
David Hawkins dh...@netcom.com
"One can aquire everything in solitude -- except character."
-- Stendhal
Graydon
rsm5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ron) writes:
>i reread JHEREG, and it seems quite clear that Mellar is the grandson
>of Greycat, and son of Grita. who was his father? clearly a jhereg...
tri-hybrid. His father is indeed a Jhereg - he's the son of whicherver
assasin who was helping Adron and whose death set off the Second
Dragon-Jhereg War.
Graydon
Graydon
>of the dead. After all, since she is undead, she would have been
>allowed to leave again. Objections about the Jenoine she had to fight
>are answered by noting that they could have delayed the quest for Aliera
>for a while; there was no particular time pressure there.
I don't think so; the Jenoine incident was during/just after the
attempt to recover the staff with Aliera in it from the Athyra's
keep.
I don't think you're allowed to come and go as you please in the
Paths of the Dead just because you're undead; Sethra explicitly
states that she *can't* go.
Has anyone else read Paarfi's comments about Sethra disappearing
as being _recent_, from the point of view of 12 years into
Norathar's reign? I wonder if something happens to her in Orca...
expect to happen to Sethra is a full apothesis.
Graydon
Ron
>>(what, on the order of 200k years?), but seemed to die for some reason.
>>Probably an interesting story in that, wot? :)
>In Taltos, the gods that Vlad and Morrolan meet mention that one
>way for the living to leave the Paths of the Dead is to become
>undead. They also mention that Sethra managed it. The question,
>of course, is why Sethra had to visit the Paths, and how the
>"undead" solution occured to her - and, of course, if she has
>any regrets about it. What ARE the downsides to being undead?
>From the description of the Necromancer, Sethra does undead
>better than anybody.
in Athyra it was shown that the stagnant dark water in that one
cavern causes an undead to lose their spells, if not their
physical prowess. vlad seems to know a way to defeat part of
sethra's power ...
- ron
--
(ron) rm9...@meibm10.cen.uiuc.edu
Max Rible
>In article <SCHWARTZ.94...@roke.cse.psu.edu>
>schw...@roke.cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz) writes:
>>Sethra, rather than Morrolan, should have accompanied Vlad to the paths
>>of the dead. After all, since she is undead, she would have been
>>allowed to leave again. Objections about the Jenoine she had to fight
>>are answered by noting that they could have delayed the quest for Aliera
>>for a while; there was no particular time pressure there.
>
>I don't think so; the Jenoine incident was during/just after the
>attempt to recover the staff with Aliera in it from the Athyra's
>keep.
>
>I don't think you're allowed to come and go as you please in the
>Paths of the Dead just because you're undead; Sethra explicitly
>states that she *can't* go.
Sethra states that she can't go because she can't leave Dzur Mountain
at the time; the conversation implies that she could go if she were free
to go.
--
/-----------------------v-----------------------------------------\
| Max Rible | "Animals *like* earthquakes, tornadoes, |
| mo...@netcom.com | and volcanic activity." - Talking Heads |
\-----------------------^-----------------------------------------/
Chris Clayton
Graydon
mo...@netcom.com (Max Rible) writes:
>SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
>>In article <SCHWARTZ.94...@roke.cse.psu.edu>
>>schw...@roke.cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz) writes:
>>>Sethra, rather than Morrolan, should have accompanied Vlad to the paths
>>>of the dead. After all, since she is undead, she would have been
>>>allowed to leave again. Objections about the Jenoine she had to fight
>>>are answered by noting that they could have delayed the quest for Aliera
>>>for a while; there was no particular time pressure there.
>>
>>I don't think so; the Jenoine incident was during/just after the
>>attempt to recover the staff with Aliera in it from the Athyra's
>>keep.
>>
>>I don't think you're allowed to come and go as you please in the
>>Paths of the Dead just because you're undead; Sethra explicitly
>>states that she *can't* go.
>
>Sethra states that she can't go because she can't leave Dzur Mountain
>at the time; the conversation implies that she could go if she were free
>to go.
Wizard's keep' conversation, not the 'Vlad, we want you to take
this staff to the Paths of the Dead' conversation, in which
Sethra says: 'If I could go, there would be no need for you to
go in the first place'.
Doesn't sound like she can't go right now; it sounds like she
can't go at all.
Graydon
Mutant for Hire
description is accurate. After all, he could probably show up at Castle
Black without too much difficulty, and seeing Sethra there would allow him
to get a good description.
Currently she sounds like a Dragon-Dzur crossbreed. She's old enough that
no one would know that she was a crossbreed or rather, could prove it, and
is powerful enough that I don't think anyone would comment on it.
I'm not sure if she officially belongs to any House. She's got the Lavodes
which are sort of a miniature House of her own. Certainly if she didn't
belong to any House, I doubt anyone would dare think of her any less for
that. Not if they wanted to keep their form. Other guess is that she's
a Dzurlord, since they, like the Jhereg, do accept outsiders on occasion.
--
Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Synchronicity Daemon, Priest of Shub-Internet
Disclaimer: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but flames are just ignored
mfte...@phoenix.princeton.edu mfte...@pucc.bitnet anonym...@charcoal.com
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
Scott Schwartz
Emma Pease
> I believe that Sethra 'died' saving Mario and Aliera and the
>Orb. She is not described as Undead in _500YA_, but is when Vlad
>meets her in _Taltos_. Paarfi also mentions her disappearing from
>notice for a long time after the start of the Interegnum.
Incorrect, she is described as being extremely pale and in his
description of her Paarfi states that she was a living women during
the 14th cycle (forget which reign) but that she was undead by the
Lavode scandal (which probably was the cause of the Lavode scandal).
The Lavode scandal took place in the 17th Athyra reign according to
other references. I suspect a lot of people disappeared temporarily
during the Interregnum; my guess is Sethra retreated to Dzur mountain
to study the problem and didn't return till after she had a solution
(which was probably to tell Morrolan to aid Zerika and go to the paths
of the dead to retrieve the orb).
Emma
net spinster
em...@csli.stanford.edu
Fred A Haskell
>[Much good stuff deleted.]
>Is someone getting all this and forwarding it to Steven? It really should
>be worked in somewhere.
I've lately been grabbing stuff from here and forwarding it to Steven, yes.
I will continue to do so until either he or I get tired of it.
Whether anything gets worked in, however, is anybody's guess....
--
Fred A. Levy Haskell | "I do believe you are what you perceive
fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu | what comes is better than what came before"
| --The Velvet Underground
Ron
events of adron's disaster is from paarfi's; i refer predominantly
to what she says in, i believe, JHEREG about Mario's motives (the
Emperor was using the Orb on the Jhereg ...). i wonder if she was
actually telling something closer to the truth than Paarfi, since
Paarfi had a great deal of disdain for the Jhereg, and Aliera as
a Dragon shouldn't be capable of countenancing assassination...
then again maybe her unique perspective and sudden love for Mario
makes her capable of un-Dragon like acts.
cfb103
an...@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (Andrew F. Nelson) says:
>
>In article <1994Apr21....@martha.utcc.utk.edu> d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu
>(David DeLaney) writes:
>>SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
>>>All die, and oh! the embarrassment...
>>
>>Source, please? I remember reading (and enjoying) this story in high school -
>>but want specifics.
>
>Joe Haldeman, in (I think _Dealing in Futures_).
Yep. Dealing in Futures has just been reprinted in paperback, with a brand
new cover painting and stuff.
>I'm pretty sure this is in the Confederacion (sp) universe. The main
Yep. This story was one of two Confederacion stories in the book.
>character is bidding for a concession for a Hotel/Entertainment
>center. Any time an error in etiquette is made you get to tell a
>grisly humorous tale in which 'All die, Oh the Embarrassment'.
-Josh "good book, but a bit spotty" Munn
--
Josh Munn: Ask me about the Staggers Rail Act!
"Call me Mr. Plow, that's my name, that
name again is Mr. Plow"-Homer Simpson
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
I believe that Sethra 'died' saving Mario and Aliera and the
Orb. She is not described as Undead in _500YA_, but is when Vlad
meets her in _Taltos_. Paarfi also mentions her disappearing from
notice for a long time after the start of the Interegnum.
--
"Sirs and ladies, I will make this guarantee: if, upon taking
my remedies, you mortify and die, you return the unused medicine
for a partial refund. Where else will you hear such a guarantee?"
Shimrod in "Lyonesse: Suldrun's Garden", by Jack Vance
___ Gregg Parmentier ___ parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu ___
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
But there is time pressure there, Morrolan is Morrolan is a Dragon.
How would YOU have liked to try to convince him to wait?
Sean Eric Fagan
> I believe that Sethra 'died' saving Mario and Aliera and the
>Orb. She is not described as Undead in _500YA_, but is when Vlad
>meets her in _Taltos_. Paarfi also mentions her disappearing from
>notice for a long time after the start of the Interegnum.
Wrong.
Paarfi gives a brief account of Sethra Lavode's life, and states that she
had died some few thousand years before the events occurring in FYA.
Scott Schwartz
I believe that Sethra 'died' saving Mario and Aliera and the
Orb. She is not described as Undead in _500YA_,
Wrong. Page 98. She died some hundreds of years before the Lavode
scandal.
David Bofinger
"!Tangled Web", where the "!" is an inhaled click. I wouldn't call
this a spoiler, but look away if it bothers you.
The format of an apology is:
I die.
<Description of something you did.>
<Fanciful description of how it goes wrong and kills you.>
<Fanciful description of how it kills everyone else.>
Everybody (everyone?) dies.
Oh, the embarrassment.
For instance if you'd deceived your friend and been caught out you
might try to claim you'd been kidding him and say:
I die. I try to pull my friend's leg. It comes off, spraying me with
his poisonous circulatory fluid. The blood cuts through the ship's
hull, causing explosive decompression. Everybody dies. Oh, the
embarrassment.
A story well worth reading.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Bofinger AARNet: dxb...@huxley.anu.edu.au
Snail: Dept. of Theoretical Physics, RSPhysSE, ANU, ACT, 2601
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[A known internet poster of the back of beyond. If this is a masquerade,
somebody is in no danger of having a life.]
David Goldfarb
)The format of an apology is:
)
) I die.
) <Description of something you did.>
) <Fanciful description of how it goes wrong and kills you.>
) <Fanciful description of how it kills everyone else.>
) Everybody (everyone?) dies.
) Oh, the embarrassment.
Correct, except for this nitpick: it's "All die. O the embarassment."
David Goldfarb |"You will know pain."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "You will know fear."
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET |"And then you will die. Have a pleasant flight."
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu | -- Babylon 5, "The Parliament of Dreams"
Robin E. Baylor
has expanded the story _!Tangled Web_.
( I die. I post an erronious statement on rec.arts.sf.written. The
heat of the replying flames exceeds that of the sun. All die.
Oh the embarassment!)
--
It's none of your business what my .sig says
REB
Nerado
/I'm not sure if she officially belongs to any House. She's got the Lavodes
Isn't she stated to be older than the Empire? This could easily have
her pre-dating any set system.
-xx- Damien X-)
"After all you know, they say that familiarity breeds contempt."
-"I would like to remind you that without a degree of familiarity we
could not breed anything."
Dash Wendrzyk
|> Mutant for Hire <mfte...@tucson.Princeton.EDU> wrote:
|>
|> /I'm not sure if she officially belongs to any House. She's got the Lavodes
|>
|> Isn't she stated to be older than the Empire? This could easily have
|> her pre-dating any set system.
While that's true, I still think that she is a Dragonlord. Vlad seems to
think so in _Jhereg_, when he says that he faced the assembled dragonlords
(Morrolan, Aleira, and Sethra); and later when they think it's going to
be Dragon-Jhereg War III, Vlad asks Aliera where Sethra's at. The
conversation goes something like:
Aliera: "She's at Dzur Mountain."
Vlad: "Getting ready for the war?"
Aliera: "Our house doesn't fight to lose."
---
I would think that if Sethra wasn't a dragon, she would said "My house".
Of course, there's probably other references to show she's not a
dragon :-) We can be pretty sure that she's not a Dzur Lord of the
statement she made in 500YA.
dash
Sean Eric Fagan
> Aliera: "She's at Dzur Mountain."
> Vlad: "Getting ready for the war?"
> Aliera: "Our house doesn't fight to lose."
> ---
>I would think that if Sethra wasn't a dragon, she would said "My house".
Aliera and Morrolan will be fighting. The entire House of Dragon will be
fighting. Against the entire House of Jhereg.
Sethra is getting ready to do what she must to save the Empire.
(That's another interpretation, the one I had when I read it.)
Christopher Davis
REB> Either you are mistaken in attributing your source, or Haldeman has
REB> expanded the story _!Tangled Web_.
Or the third option: _Dealing in Futures_ is a short-story collection.
REB> ( I die. I post an erronious statement on rec.arts.sf.written. The
REB> heat of the replying flames exceeds that of the sun. All die. Oh
REB> the embarassment!)
Heh.
I die. I add extra lines to my posting in order to get past the
more-quoted-lines-than-new-text check. The news disk fills. All die. Oh
the embarrassment.
--
* Christopher Davis * <c...@kei.com> * (was <c...@eff.org>) * MIME * [CKD1] *
"It's 106 ms to Chicago, we've got a full disk of GIFs, half a meg of
hypertext, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." "Click it."
David Dyer-Bennet
>Has anyone else read Paarfi's comments about Sethra disappearing
>as being _recent_, from the point of view of 12 years into
>Norathar's reign? I wonder if something happens to her in Orca...
Well, sort of. :-)
--
David Dyer-Bennet, proprietor, The Terraboard 4242 Minnehaha Ave. S.
d...@network.com, d...@terrabit.mn.org Minneapolis, MN 55406
Don't waste your time arguing about allocating +1-612-721-8800
blame; there'll be enough to go around. Fax +1-612-724-3314
David M. Jones
>anyone notice how completely different aliera's account of the
>events of adron's disaster is from paarfi's; i refer predominantly
>to what she says in, i believe, JHEREG about Mario's motives (the
>Emperor was using the Orb on the Jhereg ...).
Yes, i wondered about that as well.
>i wonder if she was
>actually telling something closer to the truth than Paarfi, since
>Paarfi had a great deal of disdain for the Jhereg,
I would tend to give more credence to Aliera's account as well. After
all, she was actually there, and why would she lie? But how can we
decide whether Paarfi really go it wrong or whether instead Brust
decided to change the story? On the one hand, Brust has said that
Paarfi didn't take the Jhereg-Dragon war into account at all, but on
the other hand Brust has also said that Aliera's romance with Mario is
"more-or-less real".
At any rate, I don't see any way of harmonizing the two stories
completely without assuming that either Paarfi or Aliera -- or both --
were either misinformed about certain aspects of the story or wer
deliberately fabricating parts of their stories. Again, Paarfi seems
the most suspect here, but Aliera is at least guilty of withholding
information.
>and Aliera as
>a Dragon shouldn't be capable of countenancing assassination...
>then again maybe her unique perspective and sudden love for Mario
>makes her capable of un-Dragon like acts.
I wouldn't worry too much about what affect her sudden love for Mario
had on her. In fact, I wonder if Mario ever figured out that Aliera
was using him just as much as Dunaan was.
All in all, Mario comes out looking quiet naive in 500YA, but then
again he was very young. It's scary to think about how dangerous he
must have become when and if he ever wised up. I wonder if we'll get
to see Mario and Aliera meet again any time soon?
David M. Jones "Trifles! Trifles light as air!"
dmj...@theory.lcs.mit.edu -- the Hystricide
David M. Jones
she had teleportation figured out long before the Interregnum, in full
and not just in part as Paarfi suggests?
David M. Jones "Gravity is a harsh mistress."
dmj...@theory.lcs.mit.edu
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
> In article <2pl81m$9...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, rsm58307@uxa (Ron) writes:
>>anyone notice how completely different aliera's account of the
>>events of adron's disaster is from paarfi's; i refer predominantly
>>to what she says in, i believe, JHEREG about Mario's motives (the
>>Emperor was using the Orb on the Jhereg ...).
>
> completely without assuming that either Paarfi or Aliera -- or both --
> were either misinformed about certain aspects of the story or wer
> deliberately fabricating parts of their stories. Again, Paarfi seems
> the most suspect here, but Aliera is at least guilty of withholding
> information.
Brust posted something on FidoNet the other day, where he basically
says that Paarfi is writing what is half fiction and Aliera is fabricating.
So both are true in Brust's eyes.
>>and Aliera as
>>a Dragon shouldn't be capable of countenancing assassination...
>>then again maybe her unique perspective and sudden love for Mario
>>makes her capable of un-Dragon like acts.
Aliera shouldn't contenance assassination sponsored by a Dragon.
What other Houses do as far as hiring assassins is just another reason
to show the superiority of the House of Dragon. If that doesn't make
sense, please reread _Jhereg_.
Ggg
David M. Jones
>In <2pu4r5$7...@GRAPEVINE.LCS.MIT.EDU> dmj...@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David M. Jones) writes:
>Most certainly, remember she shows up at court about the same time the
>message should have arrived that stated her aid was needed in solving
>Gyorg Lavode's (and the others) deaths. I would say that indicates
>teleporting.
That was my thought as well.
> On another point does Aliera know how to teleport? She
>tells Morrolan in 'Taltos' just after she has woken up that among the
>last things she remembers is thinking she didn't have enough time to
>teleport away.
That's a good question. I hadn't thought about that. The description
of Adron's last few minutes implies that he's only able to teleport
now because he has "more power at [his] disposal than any sorcerer has
ever had," but the text is ambiguous. Or, it could be just Another
Thing that Paarfi Got Wrong.