Giant Earth Orbited By Suns
mra...@willamette.edu
about a billion Earths. Now obviously if it was a full sphere it would
collapse into itself, so let's have a thin layer of unbreakable
Unubtanim-Adimantium filled with a vacuum which is surrounded by
earth-like crust that is as thick as the radius of the Earth.
Would such a sphere have the gravity of earth because it has a crust
which is the radius of Earth? Would Earth-like life be possible on it?
Would it be possible to have suns orbit such a huge globe fast enough
so that you get roughly 24-hour days? Or because the sphere was hollow
would there not be enough mass for suns to orbit it? Even dwarf ones?
Would it be possible to have suns of varying degrees of size and
intensity so that you could get Fall-Winter-Spring-Summers in roughly
365 days?
Such a structure would pretty much have to be located far from the
galactic rim, wouldn't it? Otherwise the mass of all the multiple suns
would (long term) cause such a gravity well that it would collide with
other solar systems, right?
Other than Unubtanium-Adimantium, what are some of the big problems
with such a scenario, physics wise?
Ringworlds and Dyson's obviously, but has such a sphere ever been
featured in a SF story?
--
Mike Ralls
James Nicoll
<mra...@willamette.edu> wrote:
>OK, let's say that you create a sphere that has the surface area of
>about a billion Earths. Now obviously if it was a full sphere it would
>collapse into itself, so let's have a thin layer of unbreakable
>Unubtanim-Adimantium filled with a vacuum which is surrounded by
>earth-like crust that is as thick as the radius of the Earth.
>
>Would such a sphere have the gravity of earth because it has a crust
>which is the radius of Earth?
No. From the point of view of the people on the surface all
the mass of the object can be treated as a point source in the middle
of a sphere root one billion times Earth radii away. We can tell that
the volume of the shell is about 3 billion times that of Earth so the
gravity would be about 3x times that of Earth.
> Would Earth-like life be possible on it?
It's a made object, so that depends on how smart the makers were.
>Would it be possible to have suns orbit such a huge globe fast enough
>so that you get roughly 24-hour days? Or because the sphere was hollow
>would there not be enough mass for suns to orbit it? Even dwarf ones?
It's equal to the mass of 10,000 suns so stars could orbit it.
Simple math says the equator would be around 1.3 billion km.
One turn every 24 hours translates to an equatorial speed of about
15,000 km/s. a = v^2/r so a would be about 100 gees, upwards. This
might well be inconvenient for the surface dwellers.
>Ringworlds and Dyson's obviously, but has such a sphere ever been
>featured in a SF story?
Habitations that explode from the gee forces, flicking their
pitiful inhabitants to a miserable death hurtling into deepest inter-
galactic space at 0.05 C haven't attracted a lot of attention from
writers for some reason.
There have been stories about habitations of less ambitious
scale: Cuckoo in _Farthest Star_ is a Dyson Shell of about 4 solar
masses that someone is using as a vehicle. Patra-Baank is about
50 times the diameter of a standard Earthlike world.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
Robert Shaw
> OK, let's say that you create a sphere that has the surface area of
> about a billion Earths. Now obviously if it was a full sphere it
> would collapse into itself, so let's have a thin layer of unbreakable
> Unubtanim-Adimantium filled with a vacuum which is surrounded by
> earth-like crust that is as thick as the radius of the Earth.
>
> Would such a sphere have the gravity of earth because it has a crust
> which is the radius of Earth?
It would be nearly three times larger.
The mass of such a sphere is proportional to surface area,
or radius squared. The gravity is the same as if the mass
were at the centre of the sphere, so proportional to inverse
radius squared.
This roughly cancels, making the surface gravity independent
of the sphere's radius, for large radii. Assuming the sphere is
of constant density the limiting surface gravity is three times
that for a solid sphere of the same density.
The earth isn't of constant density, ultimately because of gravity.
The sphere as described seems likely to be less dense than
the earth as a whole, closer to the density of the surface
rocks, which would reduce the surface gravity, but not
by much.
>Would Earth-like life be possible on
> it?
As long as it was set up right.
>
> Would it be possible to have suns orbit such a huge globe fast enough
> so that you get roughly 24-hour days? Or because the sphere was
> hollow would there not be enough mass for suns to orbit it? Even
> dwarf ones?
It would have about 1000 solar masses, so a 24-hour orbit would
have a radius of about 0.26AU, much larger than the sphere.
>
> Would it be possible to have suns of varying degrees of size and
> intensity so that you could get Fall-Winter-Spring-Summers in roughly
> 365 days?
>
One sun would be enough, for this small a sphere.
Spin the sphere, with a period of a year, and you should be able to
get seasons if its axis is slightly tilted with respect to the sun's
orbit.
This will mean the equator rotating at about 3000mph, which should
be well within tolerance.
> Such a structure would pretty much have to be located far from the
> galactic rim, wouldn't it?
It's not that big. It takes up less room than the solar system.
> Other than Unubtanium-Adimantium, what are some of the big problems
> with such a scenario, physics wise?
>
> Ringworlds and Dyson's obviously, but has such a sphere ever been
> featured in a SF story?
I think in Rowley's 'The Golden', the abuctees were dropped on a similar
set-up.
Someone, maybe Niven, did a list of all the habitable megastructures,
including wrapping a sphere round an entire galaxy, but stories haven't
been set in all of them.
--
Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort
Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first.
That is the heart of physics - The rest is details.- Robert Shaw
EdLincoln
Remember, in this scenario, the sun is moveing, to. Suppose it rotated at a
slower rate. Then the stars orbited it, moving in the opposite direction fro
the way it is rotateing. Could you get an apparent day of 24 hours off that?
Remember, you could have multiple small red dward suns in this scenario. so it
is not the same sun tha rises every "day" and sets every "night" if that makes
this easier.
<< Subject: Re: Giant Earth Orbited By Suns
From: jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Date: Sun, Dec 12, 2004 12:03 PM
Message-id: <cphtl1$80s$1...@panix1.panix.com>
>><BR><BR>
Ken from Chicago
<mra...@willamette.edu> wrote in message
news:1102869140.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> OK, let's say that you create a sphere that has the surface area of
> about a billion Earths. Now obviously if it was a full sphere it would
> collapse into itself, so let's have a thin layer of unbreakable
> Unubtanim-Adimantium filled with a vacuum which is surrounded by
> earth-like crust that is as thick as the radius of the Earth.
As long as you're going with nubtanium adimantium you can set the property
of the material so that emits a field that nullifies some of the high
gravity such a structure would normally have--thus explaining why it doesn't
collapse in on itself.
Determine what properties you WANT "The Structure" to have then extrapolate
from there.
> Would such a sphere have the gravity of earth because it has a crust
> which is the radius of Earth? Would Earth-like life be possible on it?
>
> Would it be possible to have suns orbit such a huge globe fast enough
> so that you get roughly 24-hour days? Or because the sphere was hollow
> would there not be enough mass for suns to orbit it? Even dwarf ones?
>
> Would it be possible to have suns of varying degrees of size and
> intensity so that you could get Fall-Winter-Spring-Summers in roughly
> 365 days?
>
> Such a structure would pretty much have to be located far from the
> galactic rim, wouldn't it? Otherwise the mass of all the multiple suns
> would (long term) cause such a gravity well that it would collide with
> other solar systems, right?
>
> Other than Unubtanium-Adimantium, what are some of the big problems
> with such a scenario, physics wise?
>
> Ringworlds and Dyson's obviously, but has such a sphere ever been
> featured in a SF story?
>
> --
> Mike Ralls
-- Ken from Chicago
Wayne Throop
: There have been stories about habitations of less ambitious scale:
: Cuckoo in _Farthest Star_ is a Dyson Shell of about 4 solar masses
: that someone is using as a vehicle. Patra-Baank is about 50 times the
: diameter of a standard Earthlike world.
Tony Rothman, "The World is Round". Was that its name?
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Wayne Throop
: Why would you ned the thing to turn once every 24 hours to get 24 hour
: days? Remember, in this scenario, the sun is moveing, to. Suppose it
: rotated at a slower rate. Then the stars orbited it, moving in the
: opposite direction fro the way it is rotateing. Could you get an
: apparent day of 24 hours off that? Remember, you could have multiple
: small red dward suns in this scenario. so it is not the same sun tha
: rises every "day" and sets every "night" if that makes this easier.
Barring shadow squares or the such, I think the answer is pretty much "no".
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Robert Shaw <Rob...@shavian.fsnet.co.uk> said
<big huge snip>
>I think in Rowley's 'The Golden', the abuctees were dropped on a similar
>set-up.
ISTR that one's called _Golden Sunlands_ and was so ghastly the
publisher canned the rest of the series, which makes it even more
ghastly since the whole book was only a set-up for what (doesn't) come
after.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Robert Shaw
> mra...@willamette.edu wrote:
>> OK, let's say that you create a sphere that has the surface area of
>> about a billion Earths. Now obviously if it was a full sphere it
>> would collapse into itself, so let's have a thin layer of unbreakable
>> Unubtanim-Adimantium filled with a vacuum which is surrounded by
>> earth-like crust that is as thick as the radius of the Earth.
>> Would it be possible to have suns orbit such a huge globe fast enough
>> so that you get roughly 24-hour days? Or because the sphere was
>> hollow would there not be enough mass for suns to orbit it? Even
>> dwarf ones?
>
> It would have about 1000 solar masses, so a 24-hour orbit would
> have a radius of about 0.26AU, much larger than the sphere.
I lost a factor of ten here. The sphere specified would have
10,000 solar masses, so the 24-hour orbit would have a
0.56AU radius.
Since this is less than the radius of the sphere, there is
a problem.
>> Would it be possible to have suns of varying degrees of size and
>> intensity so that you could get Fall-Winter-Spring-Summers in roughly
>> 365 days?
>>
>
> One sun would be enough, for this small a sphere.
>
> Spin the sphere, with a period of a year, and you should be able to
> get seasons if its axis is slightly tilted with respect to the sun's
> orbit.
Also, multiple suns would have problems.. Trojan points
only work if all the masses differ by enough. Otherwise,
the orbits have to be widely spaced, with the brightest
stars furthest out, which won't look much like a diurnal
cycle.
It would be easier to build artificial suns. Take a few
solar radius shells, fit them with engines, heat the
surface to 6000K, and steer them in any pattern you
like.
Stars don't use their fuel very efficiently, so you may well
be able to create several artificial suns from a dismantled
star.
Wayne Throop
to fit in this class? I don't remember... I suspect maybe not,
but it's an interesting place.
Par Leijonhufvud
> Someone, maybe Niven, did a list of all the habitable megastructures,
> including wrapping a sphere round an entire galaxy, but stories haven't
> been set in all of them.
How many of these would there have to be to explain the dark matter
problem? Naturally handwaving all the piddling litte details of mass
distribution, etc.
/Par
--
Par Leijonhufvud use...@hunter-gatherer.org
"Errors have been made. Others will be blamed.
Rahul Kanakia
<mra...@willamette.edu> wrote in message
news:1102869140.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Rahul Kanakia <rhka...@hotmail.com> said
>I think a good solution to any problems would be magic.
Only until the mana runs out - look what happened to Atlantis.
8>.
David E. Siegel
But by playing with the density of the crust, you can get just about
any surface gravity you want. By playing with the thickness (since
there seems no particualr reason to spacify a thickness of one earth
radius except for the original poster's assumption/hope that this would
result in 1 earth G) you cna more easily get just about any surface
gravity you want. You can also reduce the effective surface gravity (at
the equator, any way) with rapid rotation, a la Mesklin.
> >Would Earth-like life be possible on
> > it?
>
> As long as it was set up right.
But that might be a bit tricky. Still ther is no reason at all why
this couldn't work as a setting for a story, but ther needs to be soem
reason WHY this was built to this particualr design, as other possible
designs seem more effecient.
>
> >
> > Would it be possible to have suns orbit such a huge globe fast
enough
> > so that you get roughly 24-hour days? Or because the sphere was
> > hollow would there not be enough mass for suns to orbit it? Even
> > dwarf ones?
>
> It would have about 1000 solar masses, so a 24-hour orbit would
> have a radius of about 0.26AU, much larger than the sphere.
This is assuming the crust has a density similar to that of earth,
which is unspecified, but not uneasonable. It also assumes that the
unobtanium isn't super-massive, an has no odd gravitational effects.
With unobtanium it is hard to be sure of these things
>
> >
> > Would it be possible to have suns of varying degrees of size and
> > intensity so that you could get Fall-Winter-Spring-Summers in
roughly
> > 365 days?
> >
>
> One sun would be enough, for this small a sphere.
>
> Spin the sphere, with a period of a year, and you should be able to
> get seasons if its axis is slightly tilted with respect to the sun's
> orbit.
> This will mean the equator rotating at about 3000mph, which should
> be well within tolerance.
>
<snip>
>
> > Other than Unubtanium-Adimantium, what are some of the big problems
> > with such a scenario, physics wise?
Rotational effects of several kinds. Is the central hollow n vaccum?
if so, what if it leaks? Is the unobtanium under warrentee?
> >
> > Ringworlds and Dyson's obviously, but has such a sphere ever been
> > featured in a SF story?
>
There was a ubyybj cynarg (rot13) in Clement's _Still Rivenr, but that
wasn't the kind of thing you semm to be thinking of. Still I found it
intersting.
> I think in Rowley's 'The Golden', the abuctees were dropped on a
similar
> set-up.
>
> Someone, maybe Niven, did a list of all the habitable megastructures,
> including wrapping a sphere round an entire galaxy, but stories
haven't
> been set in all of them.
That was "Bigger than Words" and it was collected in _A Hole Ijn Space_
IIRC. He didn't claim that it was all possible habitable
megastructures, just the ones he had thought of or had read of or been.
-DES
mra...@willamette.edu
> But that might be a bit tricky. Still ther is no reason at all why
> this couldn't work as a setting for a story, but ther needs to be
soem
> reason WHY this was built to this particualr design, as other
possible
> designs seem more effecient.
So what is the most effecient design to create a structure where an
Earth-like environment can exist over a continuous area that is over a
billion times that of Earth?
--
Mike Ralls
Wayne Throop
: So what is the most effecient design to create a structure where an
: Earth-like environment can exist over a continuous area that is over a
: billion times that of Earth?
Dunno, but suspect it will involve hyperspace in some way.
And... what you mean, "efficient", Kemo-sabe?
What thing are you trying to optimize?
Though... continuous you say. Hm. Consider a very-much-elongated
O'Neil type structure. Few kilometers radius, loooooooooong axis.
Could actually build one with not-very exotic materials, in sufficiently
flat intergalactic space so the tides or other such don't gitcha... and
presuming you can do without a sun and all. Niven discusses a hairball
version of this that could possibly be folded around a sun, or somesuch.
My civilization went to live in a glorified bendy-straw,
and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
Aaron Davies
I am reminded of a novel I read three or four years ago where, IIRC,
there were huge interplanetary networks of tubes and tunnels and such,
which many people seemed to live in. (I was never too clear on the
structure of the whole thing.) I remember that the plot was political,
about a dictator rising on one of the planets, and that they had
nanobots, but called them "dust".
--
Aaron Davies
Opinions expressed are solely those of a random number generator.
"I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth."
-Jami JoAnne of alt.folklore.urban, showing her grasp on reality.
James Nicoll
Aaron Davies <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>I am reminded of a novel I read three or four years ago where, IIRC,
>there were huge interplanetary networks of tubes and tunnels and such,
>which many people seemed to live in. (I was never too clear on the
>structure of the whole thing.) I remember that the plot was political,
>about a dictator rising on one of the planets, and that they had
>nanobots, but called them "dust".
_Metaplanetary_ by Tony Daniels? With the inner worlds connected
by cables and the asteroid belt as an insurmountable challenge for the
cable system?
With time and enough head injuries, I hope to forget both that
and the sequel.
Anthony Nance
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <1gorb48.f4k10i12mpkrkN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid>,
>Aaron Davies <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>I am reminded of a novel I read three or four years ago where, IIRC,
>>there were huge interplanetary networks of tubes and tunnels and such,
>>which many people seemed to live in. (I was never too clear on the
>>structure of the whole thing.) I remember that the plot was political,
>>about a dictator rising on one of the planets, and that they had
>>nanobots, but called them "dust".
>
> _Metaplanetary_ by Tony Daniels? With the inner worlds connected
>by cables and the asteroid belt as an insurmountable challenge for the
>cable system?
<eyebrows fly upward; must retrieve later>
<checks calendar> Nope, not April 1st.
<checks poster> Nope, not posted by a troll.
<scratches head, cheek, chin; shrugs>
Are you serious? 'Cause I'm holding back a flash of searing head pain
on the faint hope that you're kidding.
You are kidding, right?
- Tony
James Nicoll
No.
I seem to recall there was supposed to be switching mechanisms
to deal with the obvious problem but we never got a good look at them,
which is probably good: can't pick holes in something you can't see.
My notes say that in the sequel, _Superluminal_, the cloudships
are "not much limited by physics". No details, unfortunately, and I don't
recall exactly what it was that prompted that response.
Anthony Nance
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <cpmqvi$s7l$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Anthony Nance <na...@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>In article <cpmq0c$o7b$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>In article <1gorb48.f4k10i12mpkrkN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid>,
>>>Aaron Davies <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I am reminded of a novel I read three or four years ago where, IIRC,
>>>>there were huge interplanetary networks of tubes and tunnels and such,
>>>>which many people seemed to live in. (I was never too clear on the
>>>>structure of the whole thing.) I remember that the plot was political,
>>>>about a dictator rising on one of the planets, and that they had
>>>>nanobots, but called them "dust".
>>>
>>> _Metaplanetary_ by Tony Daniels? With the inner worlds connected
>>>by cables and the asteroid belt as an insurmountable challenge for the
>>>cable system?
>>
>>
>>You are kidding, right?
>
> No.
<head pain subsides>
Crud. That's just so...bad.
> I seem to recall there was supposed to be switching mechanisms
>to deal with the obvious problem but we never got a good look at them,
>which is probably good: can't pick holes in something you can't see.
But if he's predicating that some problems are within/due to the ecliptic
plane,...oh, never mind. That way lies madness.
> My notes say that in the sequel, _Superluminal_, the cloudships
>are "not much limited by physics". No details, unfortunately, and I don't
>recall exactly what it was that prompted that response.
I'm not sure it's that unfortunate given the above, and you should
surely quit trying to recall if you haven't already. Better to let
it seep back into the forgotten depths.
- Tony
Ken from Chicago
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cpmq0c$o7b$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Come on, James, how BAD could it POSSIBLY be?
-- Ken from Chicago
James Nicoll
Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:cpmq0c$o7b$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>> In article
><1gorb48.f4k10i12mpkrkN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid>,
>> Aaron Davies <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >I am reminded of a novel I read three or four years ago where, IIRC,
>> >there were huge interplanetary networks of tubes and tunnels and such,
>> >which many people seemed to live in. (I was never too clear on the
>> >structure of the whole thing.) I remember that the plot was political,
>> >about a dictator rising on one of the planets, and that they had
>> >nanobots, but called them "dust".
>>
>> _Metaplanetary_ by Tony Daniels? With the inner worlds connected
>> by cables and the asteroid belt as an insurmountable challenge for the
>> cable system?
>>
>> With time and enough head injuries, I hope to forget both that
>> and the sequel.
>>
>
The current contender for the bottom ten is a book called
_Warp Speed_, which is hard to describe because the prose (First
Person Teriary Engineer's Syndrome) has much the same effect on my
ability to force my way through the book as spring loaded spikes
that leap out and impale my eyes might.
Aaron Davies
> In article <1gorb48.f4k10i12mpkrkN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid>,
> Aaron Davies <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >I am reminded of a novel I read three or four years ago where, IIRC,
> >there were huge interplanetary networks of tubes and tunnels and such,
> >which many people seemed to live in. (I was never too clear on the
> >structure of the whole thing.) I remember that the plot was political,
> >about a dictator rising on one of the planets, and that they had
> >nanobots, but called them "dust".
>
> _Metaplanetary_ by Tony Daniels? With the inner worlds connected
> by cables and the asteroid belt as an insurmountable challenge for the
> cable system?
>
> With time and enough head injuries, I hope to forget both that
> and the sequel.
Yes, that's it. Thanx!
Jaimie Vandenbergh
wrote:
>Though... continuous you say. Hm. Consider a very-much-elongated
>O'Neil type structure. Few kilometers radius, loooooooooong axis.
>Could actually build one with not-very exotic materials, in sufficiently
>flat intergalactic space so the tides or other such don't gitcha... and
>presuming you can do without a sun and all. Niven discusses a hairball
>version of this that could possibly be folded around a sun, or somesuch.
>
>My civilization went to live in a glorified bendy-straw,
>and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
There's The Way, from Bear's Eon/Infinity/whatever books, which was
created by accident when experimenting with the drive systems of an
O'Niell hab. "Woops - the engine room has gone infinite again... darn
those unknown laws of physics" sort of thing.
I liked the first book but the second was a bit forced, and I didn't
pick up any after that.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has
endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us
to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei
EdLincoln
There was a *SEQUEL*?
And you read it?
<< Subject: Re: Giant Earth Orbited By Suns
From: jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Date: Tue, Dec 14, 2004 8:31 AM
Message-id: <cpmq0c$o7b$1...@panix2.panix.com> >><BR><BR>
<< _Metaplanetary_ by Tony Daniels? With the inner worlds connected
by cables and the asteroid belt as an insurmountable challenge for the
cable system?
With time and enough head injuries, I hope to forget both that
and the sequel. >><BR><BR>
Robert A. Woodward
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article <fLadnbgqjaB...@comcast.com>,
> Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
> >news:cpmq0c$o7b$1...@panix2.panix.com...
<SNIP of book description>
> >> _Metaplanetary_ by Tony Daniels? With the inner worlds connected
> >> by cables and the asteroid belt as an insurmountable challenge for the
> >> cable system?
> >>
> >> With time and enough head injuries, I hope to forget both that
> >> and the sequel.
> >>
> >Come on, James, how BAD could it POSSIBLY be?
> >
> Bad but not in the running for the worse I have read recently.
>
> The current contender for the bottom ten is a book called
> _Warp Speed_, which is hard to describe because the prose (First
> Person Teriary Engineer's Syndrome) has much the same effect on my
> ability to force my way through the book as spring loaded spikes
> that leap out and impale my eyes might.
If anybody wants to see for themselves, I suspect that this is the
book James is referring to:
<http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200412/0743488628.htm?blurb>
(only about 1/4 of the text though).
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw
Michael Stemper
>On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:22:09 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
wrote:
>>My civilization went to live in a glorified bendy-straw,
>>and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.
>
>There's The Way, from Bear's Eon/Infinity/whatever books, which was
_Eon_/_Eternity_/_Legacy_
>created by accident when experimenting with the drive systems of an
>O'Niell hab. "Woops - the engine room has gone infinite again... darn
>those unknown laws of physics" sort of thing.
>
>I liked the first book but the second was a bit forced, and I didn't
>pick up any after that.
You are wise beyond your years. I had the same reaction to the first
two, but still bought and read _Legacy_.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
A bad day sailing is better than a good day at the office.
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
> Bad but not in the running for the worse I have read recently.
>
> The current contender for the bottom ten is a book called _Warp
> Speed_, which is hard to describe because the prose (First Person
> Teriary Engineer's Syndrome) has much the same effect on my ability
> to force my way through the book as spring loaded spikes that leap
> out and impale my eyes might.
Did you mean "Tertiary?" (My spellchecker's other suggestion is
"ternary," which doesn't help.) Anyway, I'm not grasping what you
mean by the description.
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
James Nicoll
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <cpn1rh$8i2$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>
>> Bad but not in the running for the worse I have read recently.
>>
>> The current contender for the bottom ten is a book called _Warp
>> Speed_, which is hard to describe because the prose (First Person
>> Teriary Engineer's Syndrome) has much the same effect on my ability
>> to force my way through the book as spring loaded spikes that leap
>> out and impale my eyes might.
>
>Did you mean "Tertiary?"
Yes. typo + too lazy to spell check.
>(My spellchecker's other suggestion is
>"ternary," which doesn't help.) Anyway, I'm not grasping what you
>mean by the description.
It's generally agreed that the mind of an engineer is a delicate
thing, particularly the minds of Electrical Engineers.
Engineers Syndrome may be caused by the habit of some schools
to use Lies for Engineers, models that are wrong but good enough for
their purposes. There is also a tradition amongst some engineers to
see their profession as the best one in the world, certainly much harder
than mere open heart surgery, managing a nation-state's monetary system
or being a Hindu god.
When they notice the fact that Lies for Engineers are flawed
the reaction is often _not_ "Oh, they simplified that [foo model] for
engineering undergrads" but rather "Those guys over in [foo] don't
know their stuff. I'd better invent my own version of [foo] and since
I know regular old [foo] is wrong, because my Lies for Engineers
course shows me this, I won't bother to check Foo For Fooists to
see if the flaws I have noticed LFE are addressed in FFF."
When Foo-ologists notice Shiny New Foo by an Engineer [SNFbaE]
they may well point out that their standard model produces better results
or that SNFbaE requires that the Earth be composed entirely of pudding.
many engineers do not take this as proof that SNFbaE is wrong but that
Foo-ologists are even more incorrect than the engineer thought. A few
cycles of this (particularly the bit where the Foo-ologists fail to
fall to their knees in worship but instead act as though their discipline
was a real job like engineering) and you may get to see Secondary
Engineer's Syndrome where not only do they see Foo-ologists as wrong
but as an active conspiracy to suppress SNFbaE.
Tertiary Engineer's Syndrome is to that stage as Tertiary
syphilus is earlier forms. Every other profession is seen as un-
engeerish and therefore flawed and wrong. It's just a matter of
looking for the mistakes you know are there.
Engineer's Syndrome interacts oddly with the idea what humans
want must be possible. I don't seem to have come up with/remembered
a snappy term for that way of thinking but it definitely exists. It's
handy when it leads to locomotives but not so much when it leads to
the quest of the Hole at the North Pole.
James Nicoll
Mike Schilling
> Engineer's Syndrome interacts oddly with the idea what humans
> want must be possible. I don't seem to have come up with/remembered
> a snappy term for that way of thinking but it definitely exists.
Can-doism.
Wayne Throop
:: must be possible. I don't seem to have come up with/remembered a
:: snappy term for that way of thinking but it definitely exists.
: Can-doism.
Can D'oh ism.
Bill Snyder
Clarke's Final Law or maybe Clarke's Syndrome.
Sir Arthur was, last I heard, still beating the drum for cold fusion.
And I was recently told he was bankrolling _Infinite Energy_ magazine,
altho' I have no firsthand knowledge on that one. He seems to have
taken the "When a distinguished but elderly scientist . . ." routine
waaaaayyy too seriously.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
Wayne Throop
: Sir Arthur was, last I heard, still beating the drum for cold fusion.
: And I was recently told he was bankrolling _Infinite Energy_ magazine,
: altho' I have no firsthand knowledge on that one. He seems to have
: taken the "When a distinguished but elderly scientist . . ." routine
: waaaaayyy too seriously.
Perhaps he is discounting Asimov's supplement to his law, about the
exception for the D-but-ES rule "when the lay public rallies round an
idea ... with great fervor and emotion...".
James Nicoll
Captain Button
But don't forget that torchship engineers are totally immune to all forms
of this condition.
--
Once is happenstance.
Twice is coincidence.
Four times is enemy action.
BOMB MARS NOW! [ Captain Button - but...@io.com ]
Bruce Murphy
> It's generally agreed that the mind of an engineer is a delicate
> thing, particularly the minds of Electrical Engineers.
>
> Engineers Syndrome may be caused by the habit of some schools
> to use Lies for Engineers, models that are wrong but good enough for
> their purposes. There is also a tradition amongst some engineers to
> see their profession as the best one in the world, certainly much harder
> than mere open heart surgery, managing a nation-state's monetary system
> or being a Hindu god.
[snip]
> When Foo-ologists notice Shiny New Foo by an Engineer [SNFbaE]
> they may well point out that their standard model produces better results
> or that SNFbaE requires that the Earth be composed entirely of pudding.
> many engineers do not take this as proof that SNFbaE is wrong but that
> Foo-ologists are even more incorrect than the engineer thought. A few
> cycles of this (particularly the bit where the Foo-ologists fail to
> fall to their knees in worship but instead act as though their discipline
> was a real job like engineering) and you may get to see Secondary
> Engineer's Syndrome where not only do they see Foo-ologists as wrong
> but as an active conspiracy to suppress SNFbaE.
A counter-example to this may well be Pollack's views on cell
structure and form which appear to be far more useful than the
lies-to-scientists that the wet-science muppets have been clinging to,
ever since they were mistakenly printed in a glossy textbook.
B>
Gerry Quinn
mra...@willamette.edu says...
A billion is a bit high. But if a hundred would do, cover the Earth
with a building of a hundred large stories with simulated skies. If
continuity is a big deal, connect them with ramps.
- Gerry Quinn
James Nicoll
misinformation. I had assumed he got his job because of political
connections and testing high for bravery and low for self-preservation
but it could have been a bad case of ES, in this case being totally
ignorant of rocket science outside his ship's velocity range.
As I recall, the ship's total delta vee in that book was about
300 km/s. The exhaust velocity was given (indirectly) as 0.75 C so the
mass ratio to get to Ganymede was 1.001 -- no, actually it's obvious
even if you think mass ratios are linear that getting close to light
speed is going to require more than 2% of the ship. A m/r of 1.02 is
only good for about 0.02 C. So I don't know what the engineer was on
about. Maybe he knew that his rocket was more efficient the closer
tthe delta vee got to the exhaust velocity but misunderstood what
efficiency meant in this case.
Wayne Throop
:: forms of this condition.
: jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
: Actually, the one in Farmer in the Sky rattles off all kinds of
: misinformation. I had assumed he got his job because of political
: connections and testing high for bravery and low for self-preservation
: but it could have been a bad case of ES, in this case being totally
: ignorant of rocket science outside his ship's velocity range.
Plus his profession of ignorance as to what would happen if,
near lightspeed[1], the ship was torched up to maximum acceleration
(the implied question being, would the ship go FTL) seems to be
an unusually strong case of ES, or an indication that the laws of
nature differed in that universe, or he was pulling his audience's
leg with great vigor.
Or (gasp) that at that time Heinlein was a bit vague on it.
Or so it seemed to me.
[1] "near lightspeed" is an interesting concept in itself; look at
it this way: in terms of special relativity, nobody is any "nearer"
to "lightspeed" than anybody else. Lightspeed is always an infinite
momentum change away for you, same as for everybody. "Lightspeed"
just isn't something one can get "near to". So the strange part is,
when he's asked what happens near lightspeed, that he didn't answer
"what you mean 'near', Kemo-sabe" or "nearer than whom" or some
variation. As a sort of imromptu socratic koan or like that.
Being generous, I suppose his "nobody knows" could be taken as
"some variation"... ie, nobody knows because the question is
ill-formed or somesuch, same as nobody knows how high is up.
But that's a poor excuse for a socratic-koanism.
James Nicoll
snip: Farmer in the Sky and ships of unusual speed.
>Or (gasp) that at that time Heinlein was a bit vague on [relativity].
>
>Or so it seemed to me.
snip
As far as I recall, every time he talked about relativistic ships,
he got details wrong [1]. What I'd like to know is if he and de Camp were
using the same source, because travel times in the Viagens stories are
just as wrong as in _Time for the Stars_.
1: But he did get the FTL = time travel part, I think.
Scott Robinson
wrote:
>In article <11032...@sheol.org>, Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> wrote:
>
> snip: Farmer in the Sky and ships of unusual speed.
>
>>Or (gasp) that at that time Heinlein was a bit vague on [relativity].
>>
>>Or so it seemed to me.
>
> snip
>
>
> As far as I recall, every time he talked about relativistic ships,
>he got details wrong [1]. What I'd like to know is if he and de Camp were
>using the same source, because travel times in the Viagens stories are
>just as wrong as in _Time for the Stars_.
>
>
>1: But he did get the FTL = time travel part, I think.
I remember reading that de Camp claimed that the Viagens stories were
hard SF, but he had to fudge the distance between the stars. This was
either in an introduction to a Viagens book or in _Best of Sprague de
Camp_.
Scott
David Goldfarb
I don't think you can fairly say that the lay public has rallied round
cold fusion with great emotion.
--
David Goldfarb |"I came to Casablanca for the waters."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "The waters? What waters? We're in the desert."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |"I was misinformed."
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
[ explanation of Engineer's Syndrome snipped ]
> Tertiary Engineer's Syndrome is to that stage as Tertiary syphilus
> is earlier forms. Every other profession is seen as un- engeerish
> and therefore flawed and wrong. It's just a matter of looking for
> the mistakes you know are there.
Ah, _parsing_ problems. I read "Tertiary Engineer's Syndrome" as
"{Tertiary Engineer's} Syndrome" rather than "Tertiary {Engineer's
Syndrome}," and once your chain of thought starts down that road
there's really no chance of recovery; from then on it's all "What
the heck is a tertiary engineer?" all the time. (The guy who gets
the coffee for the guy who follows Scotty around with a clipboard?)
Urban Fredriksson
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Actually, the one in Farmer in the Sky rattles off all kinds of
>misinformation. I had assumed he got his job because of political
>connections and testing high for bravery and low for self-preservation
>but it could have been a bad case of ES, in this case being totally
>ignorant of rocket science outside his ship's velocity range.
It wasn't just him. Food rationing in a society where
students travel to Antarctica with geography class and fly
helicopters in the Scouts just seems stupid to me. Or,
those who predicted a major war did a lot of covert
manipulation, possibly in order to give mankind a foothold
on more than one planet. Perhaps he gave misinformation in
order to find out if there's a smart listener?
--
Urban Fredriksson http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/
A boundary between the known and the unknown always exists.
James Nicoll
Scott Robinson <dsc...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>
>I remember reading that de Camp claimed that the Viagens stories were
>hard SF, but he had to fudge the distance between the stars. This was
>either in an introduction to a Viagens book or in _Best of Sprague de
>Camp_.
It's not in Best of. I just checked.
Scott Robinson
wrote:
>In article <cps7ts$t2g$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, the one in Farmer in the Sky rattles off all kinds of
>>misinformation. I had assumed he got his job because of political
>>connections and testing high for bravery and low for self-preservation
>>but it could have been a bad case of ES, in this case being totally
>>ignorant of rocket science outside his ship's velocity range.
>
>It wasn't just him. Food rationing in a society where
>students travel to Antarctica with geography class and fly
>helicopters in the Scouts just seems stupid to me. Or,
>those who predicted a major war did a lot of covert
>manipulation, possibly in order to give mankind a foothold
>on more than one planet. Perhaps he gave misinformation in
>order to find out if there's a smart listener?
No. Heinlein wrote plenty of works that included extreme high tech,
and food rationing. He even made the point clear in _Expanded
Universe_ that it was central to his predictions, and not going to
happen (or at least not for the same reasons).
He then mentions that he suspects that oil is the limiting factor.
I'd say the same, with the obvious point that it isn't so much the the
amount of oil but the cost of getting it out of the ground (and
getting it where you want it). There's also that pesky CO2 issue.
Scott
Chris Kuan
series, where Our Heroes were sent to a planet whose gravity seemed to
occasionally change direction and strength.
It was eventally discovered that (ROT-13) gurer jnf n syhvq fho-pehfg, naq
gur cynarg'f zbbaf beovgrq jvguva gur cynarg (/ROT-13), causing the
observed gravity fluctuations.
--
Chris