Is there a war between Science Fiction and Historical Fiction?
Ryan McCoskrie
the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
also?
Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
--
Quote of the login:
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes. -- Dr.
Warren Jackson, Director, UTCS
Michael Grosberg
wrote:
> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
> also?
>
That's funny; most SF fans I know are also, to some extent, fans of
historical fiction.
art...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
> also?
>
> Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
> mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
> but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
If you remove the corset using psychic powers, than it is SF, right?
only 99 more ways to think of....
Louann Miller
news:a6f4c535-1c13-4ced...@g10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
> On Feb 22, 11:40�am, Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but
>> none the less hates it deeply on principal.
> That's funny; most SF fans I know are also, to some extent, fans of
> historical fiction.
I think they both scratch the same "take me away from boring Real Life to
an exotic world" itch. Whether the exotic world is Tatooine or Regency
England is a mere detail. (And they share the technical problem of cluing
the reader in to the exotic world without masses of infodump.)
Possibly it's partially a gender thing? A lot of historical fiction fans
get there by way of romance novels and may see SF as covered in boy
cooties.
Cryptoengineer
Depends - do the psychic powers come from a potion mixed up in a lab
(SF) or a lair (fantasy)?
pt
Bill Patterson
wrote:
In the 1940's when Historical Fiction was at the height of its
prestige (not boddice rippers, which have never had prestige, but
things like Buddenbrooks and Anthony Adverse, the Forsyte Saga, etc.),
Heinlein cast it as one of the main branches of realistic fiction, of
which SF was a part, as "realistic fiction with a past setting." I
think that was the essay -- "On the Nature of Speculative Fiction"
which wound up in Eshback's Of Worlds Beyond. It's also in the 1957
lecture that went into The Science Fiction Novel, as well. "Science
Fiction, Its Nature, Faulys, and Virtues." There is some historical
fiction being written nowadays -- I just finished Harris's Imperium --
but I'm not sure that the boddice-rippers you seem to be talking about
qualify as the same kind of thing. Since people come to boddice-
rippers for such different psychological reasons (from SF), I have to
say I don't find it very surprising that the audiences/readerships
don't overlap all that much.
Kurt Busiek
<ryan.mc...@invalid.invalid> said:
> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
Why do fans of historical fiction hate SF because they find it less
realistic than fantasy? Are they all fantasy fans, too?
> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
> also?
I like some of both. Along with other genres, too.
> Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
> mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
> but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
Is there a corollary to Sturgeon's Law that says, "10% of everything is
at least adequate?"
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
lal_truckee
No, that would be fantasy.
What you want is the Ace Pocket Magnetic Monopole Corset Snipper,
designed and built overnight from parts obtained by dismantling an
Aldebaran zero-G urinal.
Chris Thompson
There is, after all, a large sub-genre of SF/Fantasy that uses more or
less real historical settings (as real as those used by most "straight"
historical fiction, anyway). Think Tim Powers, Tom Holt, Connie Willis,
Dan Simmons (recently), etc. etc.
If historical fiction doesn't have SF/Fantasy in it, I like to have it
laced with other additives. Usually detective stories: I admit to a
fondness for Ellis Peters and Lindsey Davis.
--
Chris Thompson
Email: cet1 [at] cam.ac.uk
James Nicoll
to make the New York Times with his non-fiction book about Hiroshima:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/21/science/21hiroshima.html
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Andrew Plotkin
> Michael Grosberg wrote:
> >
> > That's funny; most SF fans I know are also, to some extent, fans of
> > historical fiction.
>
> There is, after all, a large sub-genre of SF/Fantasy that uses more or
> less real historical settings (as real as those used by most "straight"
> historical fiction, anyway). Think Tim Powers, Tom Holt, Connie Willis,
> Dan Simmons (recently), etc. etc.
>
> If historical fiction doesn't have SF/Fantasy in it, I like to have it
> laced with other additives. Usually detective stories: I admit to a
> fondness for Ellis Peters and Lindsey Davis.
Or mutant superheroes, as in Dorothy Dunnett.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Mike Ash
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> Charles Pellegrino, known for such SFnal works as FLYING TO VALHALLA, managed
> to make the New York Times with his non-fiction book about Hiroshima:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/21/science/21hiroshima.html
After reading through that link, I am not convinced that "non-fiction"
is the proper word to describe the book.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
William George Ferguson
Sturgeon's Law is recursive.
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
Cece
In the 1940s -- indeed, in the '50s and into the '60s -- there was
historical fiction. Since then, there has been almost no historical
fiction.
Historical fiction has been replaced by a genre called historical
romance, which is neither historical nor romantic. It's a rare
example that is not full of historical gaffes and anachronisms but is
full of soft porn (including a complete disregard of the sexual mores
of the time the novel is set in). Events, customs, legal
consequences... And sometimes the story turns on them! Ellis Peters'
anachronisms (average one per Cadfael book) are minor and do not
disturb me; Elzabeth Peter' ignorance about who could inherit what
from Evelyn Forbes' grandfather's does disturb me but not much. But
the contemporary in which the "hero" was called Earl Brown, Earl
Robert, Mr. Brown, Lord Robert, etc., by the "heroine"? Or the 19th-
century English romance in which the protagonist works to figure out
how to make his rich wife give him money? Murder of King Tut is
pathetic; so is Mistress of the Art of Death. As for Jean Plaidy and
her meticulous (or was it exhaustive?) research -- !
Cece
Oh, yes -- the only problem with Georgette Heyer's work that I've
noticed is that she wasn't very good at relating dates of birth and
ages of people. (I'm sure Dominic's son did not establish his nursery
at the age of five; Hugo's maternal
grandfather's age is strange too.)
Remember Shellabarger? And at least two surnamed White (E.L.,
1866-1934; and ummmm).
Matt Hughes
> Or the 19th-
> century English romance in which the protagonist works to figure out
> how to make his rich wife give him money?
That could happen if the bride's father tied up her money for her, but
there would probably still have to be a male trustee in the picture
somewhere.
As for a war between science fiction and historical fiction, I think
sf would win. I mean, phasers against crossbows?
BTW, if you want excellent, non-romance historical fiction, try
Cecelia Holland.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
Jacey Bedford
<699e9ddb-66eb-4bdf...@m35g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Bill Patterson <whpat...@gmail.com> writes
>Since people come to boddice- rippers for such different psychological
>reasons (from SF), I have to say I don't find it very surprising that
>the audiences/readerships don't overlap all that much.
The speculative fiction equivalent of 'bodice rippers' is 'vampire
shaggers.' Read for very similar reasons, I suspect.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Joe Pfeiffer
> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
> also?
Hmmm... based on the number of people here who respond whenever Horatio
Hornblower or Jack Aubrey are mentioned, I think there's a good set of
counter-examples.
> Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
> mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
> but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
Sounds more like Romance or Historical Romance rather than HF to me....
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
erilar
Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mc...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
> also?
That's ridiculous. You just know the wrong people. I've been reading
both science fiction and historical fiction(GOOD historical fiction, not
bodice-ripper dreck) along with mysteries and various kinds of
non-fiction for well over half a century, and know others who share my
tastes. I know no one who fits your stereotype.
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
erilar
Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mc...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
> mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
> but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
That's not historical fiction. That's trash. There is plenty of good
historical fiction.
erilar
<0e9d74a6-88f5-4048...@f42g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Cece <ceceliaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Historical fiction has been replaced by a genre called historical
> romance, which is neither historical nor romantic. It's a rare
> example that is not full of historical gaffes and anachronisms but is
> full of soft porn (including a complete disregard of the sexual mores
> of the time the novel is set in). Events, customs, legal
> consequences... And sometimes the story turns on them!
Oh, there's still good historical fiction being written. The
bodice-rippers are pseudo-historical porn and nothing else.
erilar
<4856f8a9-dff4-40e3...@g8g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Matt Hughes <arch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> BTW, if you want excellent, non-romance historical fiction, try
> Cecelia Holland.
Who has also written some science fiction, I believe.
Scott Fluhrer
"William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:1ok5o51eedkj2ckeg...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:23:15 -0800, Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2010-02-22 01:40:18 -0800, Ryan McCoskrie
>><ryan.mc...@invalid.invalid> said:
>>
>>> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but
>>> none
>>> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
>>> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
>>
>>Why do fans of historical fiction hate SF because they find it less
>>realistic than fantasy? Are they all fantasy fans, too?
>>
>>> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
>>> also?
>>
>>I like some of both. Along with other genres, too.
>>
>>> Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
>>> mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a
>>> corset"
>>> but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
>>
>>Is there a corollary to Sturgeon's Law that says, "10% of everything is
>>at least adequate?"
>>
>>kdb
>
> Sturgeon's Law is recursive.
Does that mean that 90% of the time, Sturgeon's Law is less than adequate???
:-)
--
poncho
Shawn Wilson
> In the 1940s -- indeed, in the '50s and into the '60s -- there was
> historical fiction. Since then, there has been almost no historical
> fiction.
Stephen Maturin, Jack Aubrey, Richard Sharpe and Harry Flashman beg to
differ...
Quadibloc
wrote:
> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
> also?
Of course, there is the science fiction that is historical fiction in
disguise. I'm thinking of you, Honor Harrington!
John Savard
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
news:12668759...@sj-nntpcache-3.cisco.com:
Stugreon was clearly an optomist.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
David Johnston
<ceceliaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Feb 22, 9:01锟絘m, Bill Patterson <whpatter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 22, 1:40 am, Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
>> > the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
>> > apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
>> > Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
>> > also?
>>
>> > Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
>> > mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
>> > but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
>>
>> > --
>> > Quote of the login:
>> > Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes. -- Dr.
>> > Warren Jackson, Director, UTCS
>>
>> In the 1940's when Historical Fiction was at the height of its
>> prestige (not boddice rippers, which have never had prestige, but
>> things like Buddenbrooks and Anthony Adverse, the Forsyte Saga, etc.),
>> Heinlein cast it as one of the main branches of realistic fiction, of
>> which SF was a part, as "realistic fiction with a past setting." 锟絀
>> think that was the essay -- "On the Nature of Speculative Fiction"
>> which wound up in Eshback's Of Worlds Beyond. 锟絀t's also in the 1957
>> lecture that went into The Science Fiction Novel, as well. "Science
>> Fiction, Its Nature, Faulys, and Virtues." 锟絋here is some historical
>> fiction being written nowadays -- I just finished Harris's Imperium --
>> but I'm not sure that the boddice-rippers you seem to be talking about
>> qualify as the same kind of thing. 锟絊ince people come to boddice-
>> rippers for such different psychological reasons (from SF), I have to
>> say I don't find it very surprising that the audiences/readerships
>> don't overlap all that much.
>
>In the 1940s -- indeed, in the '50s and into the '60s -- there was
>historical fiction. Since then, there has been almost no historical
>fiction.
>
>Historical fiction has been replaced by a genre called historical
>romance, which is neither historical nor romantic.
Let's have a look:
The Book Thief by Markus Zusak.
Give Me Back My Legions! by Harry Turtledove. "Pits three Roman
Legions against Teutonic barbarians"
Those Who Save Us by Jenna Blum. "a direct, unsentimental look at the
Holocaust"
The Rosetta Key. "Gage finds himself hurled into the Holy Land in
dogged pursuit of an ancient Egyptian scroll imbued with magic, even
as Bonaparte launches his 1799 invasion of Israel"
The Lotus Seed. "This tale of hope and continuance is told with
disarming simplicity"
City Wolves. "Canada's first female veterinarian, from a restricting
life in Halifax, Nova Scotia to the wild confusion of the Klondike
gold rush with its fascinating characters and world of license"
Kyzer's Destiny: A Novel of Historical Fiction. " he experiences the
issues of slavery, plantation life, civil war, love, and death. "
Puller's Runner: A Work of Historical Fiction about Lieutenant General
Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Matt Hughes
wrote:
> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
> the less hates it deeply on principal.
You must have a limited set of acquaintances, and I suspect they are
actually readers of historical romance. I took up reading both sf and
hf at about the same time, more than forty years ago. Today I write
sf but don't read it much, while I lament the dearth of good
historical fiction writing now that the field has been supplanted by
historical romance. If all goes well, I intend to write a serious
historical novel in the next few years.
The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future arrives, but
good hf is timeless. A Mary Renault, or a Robert Graves, or a Zoe
Oldenbourg, or a Henry Treece, or a Cecelia Holland from the sixties
or seventies is just as compelling today as when it was written.
And for a classic example of cross-over, try sf author L Sprague (Lest
Darkness Fall) De Camp's historical novels. I particularly recommend
An Elephant for Aristotle.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
Dimensional Traveler
So where does James Bond's magnetic watch dress unzipper fit in?
--
Murphy was an optimist.
Matt Hughes
> In article
> <4856f8a9-dff4-40e3-85fc-4b31d05c7...@g8g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> Matt Hughes <archon...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > BTW, if you want excellent, non-romance historical fiction, try
> > Cecelia Holland.
>
> Who has also written some science fiction, I believe.
Lately, she's been doing a series of ninth-century Viking/Byzantine
novels for Tor, which would have to be characterized as historical
fantasy, since some of the characters have second sight. Very well
done.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
Robert Carnegie
Next to "Dr. Prometheus Bunbury's Wacky Weave Destabiliser" out of
"Girl Genius", which...dissolves cloth, basically.
Think "programmable matter"...
Gene Wirchenko
wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:24:43 -0800 (PST), Cece
><ceceliaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]
>>Historical fiction has been replaced by a genre called historical
>>romance, which is neither historical nor romantic.
>
>Let's have a look:
>
>The Book Thief by Markus Zusak.
Horror, definitely horror.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Christopher Adams
> Cece wrote:
>
>> In the 1940s -- indeed, in the '50s and into the '60s -- there was
>> historical fiction. Since then, there has been almost no historical
>> fiction.
>
> Stephen Maturin, Jack Aubrey, Richard Sharpe and Harry Flashman beg to
> differ...
Aubrey and Maturin were first published in 1969, of course, as was Flashman.
Sharpe counts, first appearing in 1981.
--
Christopher Adams
Sydney, Australia
Beadie Russell: Why me?
Jimmy McNulty: I don't know. I guess you don't live right.
- The Wire
Brian M. Scott
<arch...@googlemail.com> wrote in
<news:71b45712-944d-4530...@u5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future
> arrives,
Not if it's good story-telling.
> but good hf is timeless. A Mary Renault, or a Robert
> Graves, or a Zoe Oldenbourg, or a Henry Treece, or a
> Cecelia Holland from the sixties or seventies is just as
> compelling today as when it was written.
There are quite a few trained medieval historians writing
good historical mysteries; there have been panels on the
subject at the International Medieval Congress at Kalamazoo.
[...]
Brian
David DeLaney
And what about ... where is it ... the Wacky Weave Destabilizer? That's
_premium_ mad science, that is.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Greg Goss
>On 2/22/10 5:34 AM, art...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Feb 22, 4:40 am, Ryan McCoskrie<ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
>>> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
>>> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
>>> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
>>> also?
>>>
>>> Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
>>> mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
>>> but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
>>
>> If you remove the corset using psychic powers, than it is SF, right?
>
>No, that would be fantasy.
>
>What you want is the Ace Pocket Magnetic Monopole Corset Snipper,
>designed and built overnight from parts obtained by dismantling an
>Aldebaran zero-G urinal.
You mean a "Wacky Weave Destabilizer"?
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081020
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Nigel
> Michael Grosberg wrote:
> > On Feb 22, 11:40 am, Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
> >> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
> >> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
> >> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
> >> also?
>
> > historical fiction.
>
> There is, after all, a large sub-genre of SF/Fantasy that uses more or
> less real historical settings (as real as those used by most "straight"
> historical fiction, anyway). Think Tim Powers, Tom Holt, Connie Willis,
> Dan Simmons (recently), etc. etc.
>
Also Poul Anderson. Not only his Time Patrol series, but also some of
his other stories involving time travel (e.g. _Dancer from Atlantis_ )
or set in the past (_The High Cruscade_). In fact his feel for
history also influences the stories he sets in the future,
particularly the Flandry stories.
Of course, there's also the Alternate History sub-genre, which at it's
best depends upon the writer's knowledge of real historical settings.
Cheers,
Nigel.
Jack Bohn
>The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future arrives, but
>good hf is timeless.
I wonder if there isn't a window where a particular piece of hf
would lose its lustre for a while: where the style or
storytelling tropes scream out as just out of fashion. A bit
later, those aspects aren't as jarring, just "old fashioned" as
is the story itself.
--
-Jack
cy
> "William George Ferguson" <wmgfr...@newsguy.com> wrote in messagenews:1ok5o51eedkj2ckeg...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:23:15 -0800, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> >>On 2010-02-22 01:40:18 -0800, Ryan McCoskrie
>
> >>> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but
> >>> none
> >>> the less hates it deeply on principal. I met this attitude again today,
> >>> apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic than fantasy.
>
> >>Why do fans of historical fiction hate SF because they find it less
> >>realistic than fantasy? Are they all fantasy fans, too?
>
> >>> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it on principle
> >>> also?
>
> >>I like some of both. Along with other genres, too.
>
> >>> Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
> >>> mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a
> >>> corset"
> >>> but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
>
> >>Is there a corollary to Sturgeon's Law that says, "10% of everything is
> >>at least adequate?"
>
> >>kdb
>
> > Sturgeon's Law is recursive.
>
> Does that mean that 90% of the time, Sturgeon's Law is less than adequate???
> :-)
>
> --
>
> - Show quoted text -
exactly. 90% of the time, it is full bull shit, and sturgeon's law
doesn't apply adequately, while it is more or less true in its
recursive form..:)
Bill Patterson
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, well, it had its heyday, and Shellabarger was the pop king of
it.
There has been a small amount of decent historical fiction published
in the last 60-70 years, but Sturgeon's law applies to historical
fiction the way it applies to everything else.
Andrew Plotkin
> Matt Hughes wrote:
>
> >The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future arrives, but
> >good hf is timeless.
>
> I wonder if there isn't a window where a particular piece of hf
> would lose its lustre for a while: where the style or
> storytelling tropes scream out as just out of fashion.
Yes. And SF as well, for the same reasons.
> A bit later, those aspects aren't as jarring, just "old fashioned"
> as is the story itself.
Maybe, but my usual reaction (with old SF) is that it's jarring with a
built-in excuse.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Bill Patterson
> In message
> <699e9ddb-66eb-4bdf-b7fb-beeaeef6a...@m35g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Bill Patterson <whpatter...@gmail.com> writes
>
> >Since people come to boddice- rippers for such different psychological
> >reasons (from SF), I have to say I don't find it very surprising that
> >the audiences/readerships don't overlap all that much.
>
> The speculative fiction equivalent of 'bodice rippers' is 'vampire
> shaggers.' Read for very similar reasons, I suspect.
>
> Jacey
> --
> Jacey Bedford
Oh, I think we have several equivalents, including the slash fic
genres and especially Trek slash fic
Matt Hughes
> Matt Hughes wrote:
> >The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future arrives, but
> >good hf is timeless.
>
> I wonder if there isn't a window where a particular piece of hf
> would lose its lustre for a while: where the style or
> storytelling tropes scream out as just out of fashion.
There is such a window, and through it I can see James Fennimore
Cooper. On the other hand, A Tale of Two Cities is hf, yet it holds
up well.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, that's the difference between Cooper and Dickens. Style
and ability aside, Dickens lived in a big city in a populous
nation and had a lot of other human beings to observe in forming
his opinions of same. Cooper was living in a thinly populated
hinterland, and some of his ideas about people were a bit ...
first-draft.
Here's Twain on Cooper ....
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/HNS/Indians/offense.html
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Michael Stemper
>On 22 Feb, 01:40, Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
>> the less hates it deeply on principal.
>
>You must have a limited set of acquaintances, and I suspect they are
>actually readers of historical romance. I took up reading both sf and
>The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future arrives, but
>good hf is timeless.
Does contemporary fiction become historical fiction after passage of a
decent interval of time? Was _The African Queen_ historical fiction when
it was written in 1935? If not, is it now?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?
Matt Hughes
> Well, that's the difference between Cooper and Dickens. Style
> and ability aside, Dickens lived in a big city in a populous
> nation and had a lot of other human beings to observe in forming
> his opinions of same. Cooper was living in a thinly populated
> hinterland, and some of his ideas about people were a bit ...
> first-draft.
Take away the "first-" and remove the "r" from "draft" and you're
nearer to the mark.
Another telling difference between Dickens and Cooper was that the
former was the cream of a bumper crop of contemporaries, whereas the
latter was a single stalk standing in an otherwise barren field.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
trag
> In article <hltj5p$4h...@news.albasani.net>,
> Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
> > mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
> > but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
>
> historical fiction.
Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the God" (Robert
Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The Persian Boy" (Mary Renault)
would you please recommend some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, yes. Nineteenth-century America was still a hinterland,
with not a great deal going on in it. You need a certain
population density to support a sophisticated culture.
Robert Carnegie
Less serious and somewhat more toga-ripping - about as hot as early
film noir - Lindsey Davis has been writing about ancient Roman Empire
"private informer" Marcus Didius Falco for a while. If you can pick
up BBC Radio 7, online, they're running a series of adaptations, but I
think they're on number four and it's probably better to start at the
beginning, which is _The Silver Pigs_. As a whole there are British
jokes, Pompeii jokes, Christian jokes, estate agent jokes... good fun,
not necessarily strictly authentic. And dark strands as well.
Come to think, are Robert Graves and Mary Renault a bit saucy anyway?
Not mjch in it, then.
Mike Schilling
"trag" <tr...@io.com> wrote in message
news:390e8c51-3085-48f6...@x9g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
Have you tried Graves's book about Belisarius?
Matt Hughes
> Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the God" (Robert
> Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The Persian Boy" (Mary Renault)
> would you please recommend some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
That's Romano/Hellenic. Robert Harris's Roman books -- Pompeii,
Imperium, Lustrum -- are quite good. Henry Treece wrote some serious,
realistic retellings of Greek myths, if you can find them.
Turteltaub's recent tales of two Greek cousins sailing around the Med
trading olive oil and peacocks during the post-Alexandrian troubles
are good fun. And you can find L. Sprague de Camp's old adventure
tales -- well researched -- at abebooks.com
And, of course, anything else by Renault and Graves; the latter's
Count Belisarius was as good as the Claudius books, I thought,
although I read somewhere that he disparaged his own work, having
written them only for the money. He was a poet, you see.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
Brian M. Scott
> Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the
> God" (Robert Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The
> Persian Boy" (Mary Renault) would you please recommend
> some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
For starters, you should certainly read _The Bull from the
Sea_, the sequel to _The King Must Die_. Jo Graham's _Black
Ships_ is a fine historical novel with a small element of
fantasy.
Brian
Matt Hughes
And then, of course, there are Gene Wolfe's Soldier books, which I
argued once in a review ought to be considered historical novels
because their fantastical elements coordinated nicely with the
worldviews of the people of ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt. Latro saw
gods, not because he had a head injury, but because gods were part of
the intellectual furniture of his day.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
Jerry Friedman
> trag wrote:
> > Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the
> > God" (Robert Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The
> > Persian Boy" (Mary Renault) would you please recommend
> > some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
>
> For starters, you should certainly read _The Bull from the
> Sea_, the sequel to _The King Must Die_.
And /Fire from Heaven/, Renault's book about the young Alexander, with
no interesting choices of viewpoint character. And, as Matt Hughes
said, the rest of Renault.
> Jo Graham's _Black
> Ships_ is a fine historical novel with a small element of
> fantasy.
Which you could also say about TKMD.
Another recommendation: /The King of Ys/, a tetralogy by Poul and
Karen Anderson. It's not entirely un-TKMD-ish, now that I think about
it.
I think I'll also recommend /Hrolf Kraki's Saga/, by Poul Anderson.
--
Jerry Friedman
erilar
<390e8c51-3085-48f6...@x9g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
trag <tr...@io.com> wrote:
> Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the God" (Robert
> Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The Persian Boy" (Mary Renault)
> would you please recommend some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
I could offer you an enormously long list, because when I find an author
I really enjoy, he or she goes on to my permanent list to look for more
books by that person, though this is a relatively recent(last decade)
habit, so many authors I liked before that time aren't on it. This
means I can't give you the names of Mary Renault's other historical
novels off hand, but there are several you might enjoy.
Sharon Penman: The Sunne in Splendor, When Christ and the Saints Slept,
Here Be Dragons, Falls the Shadow, The Reckoning, Time and chance
(Henry & Eleanor)
Someone mentioned Cecelia Holland, who has written books set in assorted
times: The Firedrake , Jerusalem, Great Maria, Antichrist, Death of
Attila, Until the Sun Falls, Rakossy, Two Ravens, Kings in Winter, The
Firebrand, The Earl, City of God, Home Ground, Sea Beggars, Belt of
Gold, Pillar of the Sky, Angel with a Sword, valley of the Kings The
Soul Thief, The Witches� Kitchen
Margaret Frazer has written a number of excellent historical mysteries
set in medieval England :
with Dame Frevisse: The Novice's Tale, The Servant's Tale, The Outlaw's
Tale, The Bishop's Tale, The Boy's Tale, The Murderer�s Tale, The
Prioress� Tale, The Maiden�s Tale, The Reeve�s Tale, The Squire�s Tale,
The Clerk�s Tale, The Bastard�s Tale, The Hunter�s Tale, The Widow�s
Tale, The Sempster�s Tale The Traitor's Tale [2007], The Apostate's
Tale
with Joliffe: A Play of Isaac, A Play of Dux Moraud, A Play of Knaves, A
Play of Lords [2007 A Play of Treachery
If you like Rome, you might enjoy Lindsay Davis' or David Wishart's
mysteries set there.
I particularly enjoy mysteries written by people who really know their
historical settings. These people do.
When you've sampled these, I have several more pages. . . . .
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
Elaine Thompson
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Feb 23, 5:20�pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> trag wrote:
>> > Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the
>> > God" (Robert Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The
>> > Persian Boy" (Mary Renault) would you please recommend
>> > some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
>>
>> For starters, you should certainly read _The Bull from the
>> Sea_, the sequel to _The King Must Die_.
>
>And /Fire from Heaven/, Renault's book about the young Alexander, with
>no interesting choices of viewpoint character. And, as Matt Hughes
>said, the rest of Renault.
>
>> Jo Graham's _Black
>> Ships_ is a fine historical novel with a small element of
>> fantasy.
>
oh, it's worth looking at? I picked it up a few times in the local
store and my eyes glazed over at the back cover description and page
50 test.
Mentally, I was comparing it to _Lavinia_ by LeGuin, which I'm mildly
surprised no one else has mentioned yet. It's by Good Ursula, about
Aeneas' second wife.
By comparison Black Ships looked ... ordinary and it didn't pass the
'pay money for it' test. Now I'll check the library at least.
Gillian Bradshaw writes good historical fiction set mostly in the
later Roman Empire, Greek side of it. Most people talk about _Beacon
at Alexandria_, but I have a sneaking fondness for _Bear-Keeper's
Daughter_ about a bastard of The Theodora of Justinian and Theodora.
She also wrote a charming novel of young Archimedes (early 20s), who
caught scientists in action just right, _The Sand-Reckoner_.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Dorothy J Heydt
Yes. That's a good one. Note that it's not just hist-fic, it's
well-done fantasy. And it's *long*. Set aside a long weekend to
read it.
Oh yes. And the verse at the end of the last volume, that sounds
so much like Kipling? It isn't. It's Karen Anderson.
Howard Brazee
<arch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>There is such a window, and through it I can see James Fennimore
>Cooper. On the other hand, A Tale of Two Cities is hf, yet it holds
>up well.
If only to fully enjoy Mark Twain's criticism:
http://www.hereinstead.com/sys-tmpl/bmarktwainonjfcooper/
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Kurt Busiek
Stemper) said:
> In article
> <71b45712-944d-4530...@u5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> Matt Hughes <arch...@googlemail.com> writes:
>> On 22 Feb, 01:40, Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any SF but none
>>> the less hates it deeply on principal.
>>
>> You must have a limited set of acquaintances, and I suspect they are
>> actually readers of historical romance. I took up reading both sf and
>
>> The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future arrives, but
>> good hf is timeless.
>
> Does contemporary fiction become historical fiction after passage of a
> decent interval of time?
No.
> Was _The African Queen_ historical fiction when
> it was written in 1935?
No.
> If not, is it now?
No. It's contemporary fiction of the period.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Bill Patterson
Gore Vidal's American history series was quite good. 1876 my personal
favorite from the series, though opinion varies. ThomasHarris's Roman
stuff was good too. ISTR there is actually a fair amount of Roman
historical fiction.
Dorothy J Heydt
How do you define "period"? The time in which it is set is,
IIRC, just before World War I, which was at least theoretically
over by 1935 (though there's a school of thought that claimed
it'd merely been put on hold till Germany could get its military
strength back).
Kurt Busiek
Whoops. Strike that. Reverse it.
Yes, it was historical fiction, then and now. My point was that time
doesn't change its category; I'd misremembered when the story took
place.
But what determines whether something is historical fiction happens
when it's written, not when we look at it from present-day eyes.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I've read the book, but can't remember too many of the details now, except
that I distinctly thought it was much inferior to the movie (yes, it does
happen!).
However, I think I *would* remember if the book didn't have the WWI setting
I was expecting from having seen the movie, so: By 1935, a WWI book *was*
historical fiction.
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Brian M. Scott
<Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote in
<news:50v8o557bpj9oasv7...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:59:36 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 23, 5:20�pm, "Brian M. Scott"
>> <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
[...]
>>> Jo Graham's _Black Ships_ is a fine historical novel
>>> with a small element of fantasy.
> oh, it's worth looking at?
I liked it a great deal. The characters are well done and
generally likeable, and she clearly did a good deal of
research.
[...]
> Gillian Bradshaw writes good historical fiction set mostly
> in the later Roman Empire, Greek side of it.
I really ought to track down more of her novels. I enjoyed
her Arthurian trilogy years ago, and more recently _Horses
of Heaven_ and the sf novel _The Wrong Reflection_.
> She also wrote a charming novel of young Archimedes (early
> 20s), who caught scientists in action just right, _The
> Sand-Reckoner_.
Her husband is a mathematical physicist, so she's probably
had a good deal of exposure to the breed.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<whpat...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:96993f5b-7487-46e1...@t17g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> On Feb 23, 11:17�am, trag <t...@io.com> wrote:
[...]
>> Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the
>> God" (Robert Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The
>> Persian Boy" (Mary Renault) would you please recommend
>> some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
> Gore Vidal's American history series was quite good. 1876
> my personal favorite from the series, though opinion
> varies. ThomasHarris's Roman stuff was good too. ISTR
> there is actually a fair amount of Roman historical
> fiction.
His _Julian_, about Flavius Claudius Julianus, better known
as Julian the Apostate, was very goo.
Brian
Stephen Harker
Rosemary Sutcliffe's _Sword at Sunset_ and _Rider on the White Horse_
are well worth reading. A lot of her historical fiction was pitched
towards children and adolescents. However, I have found them worth
re-reading as an adult, for example: _The Eagle of the Ninth_, _The
Silver Branch_ and _The Lantern Bearers_ which have some connection
with _Sword at Sunset_.
--
Stephen Harker s.ha...@adfa.edu.au
PEMS http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
UNSW@ADFA
David Goldfarb
Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:13:56 -0800, Elaine Thompson
><Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote in
>>> <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>> Jo Graham's _Black Ships_ is a fine historical novel
>>>> with a small element of fantasy.
>
>> oh, it's worth looking at?
>
>I liked it a great deal. The characters are well done and
>generally likeable, and she clearly did a good deal of
>research.
I read both _Black Ships_ and _Lavinia_ last year after finishing
_The Aeneid_. _Black Ships_ is a historical novel in the Mary Renault
mode inspired by _The Aeneid_, while _Lavinia_ is a commentary on
the poem itself. I liked them both, but _Lavinia_ much more.
--
David Goldfarb |"I see more than you, child. I see an end to hell.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | What do you see?"
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | "I see a man in a lot of pain."
|"Pain? Yes. Consider it a preview." -- _Zot!_ #18
Jack Bohn
>But what determines whether something is historical fiction happens
>when it's written, not when we look at it from present-day eyes.
Categorically, yes.
From an engineering viewpoint, I wonder if they come close
enough. Has anyone read old contemporary fiction and found that
it "scratched the itch" for historical fiction?
I would nominate Ring Lardner's _Treat 'em Rough:Letters from
Jack the Kaiser Killer_, and _The Real Dope_ as doing so.
On the other side, journalism is not history. I"ve read G.K.
Chestertons's collections of his newspaper work, even the columns
he felt worth publishing later in book form leave me lost when
they cover contemporary events, it's only the ones on timeless
topics that I enjoyed.
--
-Jack
Mark Zenier
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"Scott Fluhrer" <sflu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>news:12668759...@sj-nntpcache-3.cisco.com:
>>
>> "William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in
>> message news:1ok5o51eedkj2ckeg...@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:23:15 -0800, Kurt Busiek
>>> <ku...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2010-02-22 01:40:18 -0800, Ryan McCoskrie
>>>><ryan.mc...@invalid.invalid> said:
>>>>
>>>>> Every fan of historical fiction I have met has never read any
>>>>> SF but none
>>>>> again today, apparently SF is inherently more unrealistic
>>>>> than fantasy.
>>>>
>>>>Why do fans of historical fiction hate SF because they find it
>>>>less realistic than fantasy? Are they all fantasy fans, too?
>>>>
>>>>> Is anyone here a fan of both or can we all going to hate it
>>>>> on principle also?
>>>>
>>>>I like some of both. Along with other genres, too.
>>>>
>>>>> Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus
>>>>> the more mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100
>>>>> ways to remove a corset"
>>>>> but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
>>>>
>>>>everything is at least adequate?"
>>>>
>>>>kdb
>>>
>>> Sturgeon's Law is recursive.
>>
>> Does that mean that 90% of the time, Sturgeon's Law is less than
>> adequate???
>>:-)
>>
>Stugreon was clearly an optomist.
The term he used was charitable. (I asked him what the offical
percentage was, at a book reading).
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
Louann Miller
news:uq1ao55ov23kfnnh5...@4ax.com:
> Has anyone read old contemporary fiction and found that
> it "scratched the itch" for historical fiction?
What do we do with Sherlock Holmes, which started out as contemporary
fiction and was pretty well historical fiction by the time the series
stopped being written?
Kurt Busiek
Same as we do with Sue Grafton's Kinsey Millhone novels, which did the
same thing.
They start out as contemporary crime fiction, they transition to period
crime fiction.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jack Bohn <jack...@bright.net> wrote:
>Has anyone read old contemporary fiction and found that
>it "scratched the itch" for historical fiction?
I don't know if I have an itch for historical fiction. But I
enjoy reading both fiction and nonfiction (i.e., both the fiction
and the essays of Jan Struther) written during WWII.
trag
> trag wrote:
> > Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the God" (Robert
> > Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The Persian Boy" (Mary Renault)
> > would you please recommend some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
>
> Less serious and somewhat more toga-ripping - about as hot as early
> film noir - Lindsey Davis has been writing about ancient Roman Empire
> "private informer" Marcus Didius Falco for a while. If you can pick
> up BBC Radio 7, online, they're running a series of adaptations, but I
> think they're on number four and it's probably better to start at the
> beginning, which is _The Silver Pigs_. As a whole there are British
> jokes, Pompeii jokes, Christian jokes, estate agent jokes... good fun,
> not necessarily strictly authentic. And dark strands as well.
>
> Come to think, are Robert Graves and Mary Renault a bit saucy anyway?
> Not mjch in it, then.
Thank you. Those sound like fun.
trag
wrote:
> "trag" <t...@io.com> wrote in message
No, I haven't. I looked Grave's up on wikipedia after posting and
noticed those in his bibliography. They look interesting.
trag
> In article
>
> trag <t...@io.com> wrote:
> > Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the God" (Robert
> > Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The Persian Boy" (Mary Renault)
> > would you please recommend some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
>
> I could offer you an enormously long list,
very long (but apparently not enormous) list snipped :-)
I'm going to stop replying individually, as I started before I
realized how many replies I had received, and simply say, Thank You,
to all who made suggestions. I'm rich...in books to read of which I
was previously unaware. Thank you!
Moriarty
wrote:
<snip>
> Rosemary Sutcliffe's _Sword at Sunset_ and _Rider on the White Horse_
> are well worth reading. A lot of her historical fiction was pitched
> towards children and adolescents. However, I have found them worth
> re-reading as an adult, for example: _The Eagle of the Ninth_, _The
> Silver Branch_ and _The Lantern Bearers_ which have some connection
> with _Sword at Sunset_.
Ditto _Warrior Scarlet_
-Moriarty
Cece
> On 22 Feb, 01:40, Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > the less hates it deeply on principal.
>
> actually readers of historical romance. I took up reading both sf and
> sf but don't read it much, while I lament the dearth of good
> historical fiction writing now that the field has been supplanted by
> historical romance. If all goes well, I intend to write a serious
> historical novel in the next few years.
>
> The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future arrives, but
> Oldenbourg, or a Henry Treece, or a Cecelia Holland from the sixties
> or seventies is just as compelling today as when it was written.
>
> And for a classic example of cross-over, try sf author L Sprague (Lest
> Darkness Fall) De Camp's historical novels. I particularly recommend
> An Elephant for Aristotle.
>
> Matt Hugheshttp://www.archonate.com
I haven't read de Camp's Elephant! Two others, Bronze God of Rhodes
and Dragon of the Ishtar Gate. But I haven't even seen Elephant or
The Arrows of Hercules. Maybe I've read The Golden Wind -- is that
about the beginning of the Norse, people and gods?
The Ancient Engineers is good. Has anyone read The Ragged Edge of
Science?
Cece
> In article <3c6fc362-fd84-48cf-855a-550959632...@b36g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> Matt Hughes <archon...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 23 Feb, 03:13, Jack Bohn <jackb...@bright.net> wrote:
> >> Matt Hughes wrote:
> >> >The good thing is: sf can go out of date as the future arrives, but
> >> >good hf is timeless.
>
> >> would lose its lustre for a while: where the style or
> >> storytelling tropes scream out as just out of fashion.
>
> >There is such a window, and through it I can see James Fennimore
> >Cooper. On the other hand, A Tale of Two Cities is hf, yet it holds
> >up well.
>
> and ability aside, Dickens lived in a big city in a populous
> nation and had a lot of other human beings to observe in forming
> his opinions of same. Cooper was living in a thinly populated
> hinterland, and some of his ideas about people were a bit ...
> first-draft.
>
> Here's Twain on Cooper ....
>
> http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/HNS/Indians/offense.html
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at hotmail dot com
> Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
> Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Oh, that's delightful! I wish I'd happened upon it when I was in high
school, having to read all those boring say-nothing books! Melville,
Bronte, Bronte, Eliot, Dickens, Maugham, Wilder, etc. The papers I
would have written! (Kipling, Twain, Benet, and Homer were
enjoyable.)
High school U.S. history teacher gave us a list of novels to read for
extra credit (no paper to write, just answer two or three questions to
prove it'd actually been read). Some had been contemporary, some were
written as historicals. I liked Came a Cavalier enough I read a lot
more of Keyes' books. (But there are even more that I've never
seen.) The only other one I remember is All Quiet on the Western
Front -- and the first thing the teacher asked was that time, "Did you
like the book?"
Carl Dershem
september.org:
And then there's Nero Wolfe, where the characters changed very little, if
at all, but the period changed with the times.
cd
Howard Brazee
good is Connie Willis is fascinated with the British people during the
blitz.
Science Fiction and Historical Fiction work well together here.
Brenda Clough
I am reading POMPEII by Robert Harris, an engineering-heavy novel about
the volcanic eruption. It is quite good.
Brenda
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>And then there's Nero Wolfe, where the characters changed very little, if
>at all, but the period changed with the times.
Sometimes ineptly; _Please Pass the Guilt_ is a good example of how to
try unsuccessfully to keep up with the times.
The unchanging characters became a problem; Wolfe was originally a
veteran of the First World War (he fought on the Austrian side), and
by 1976 that no longer worked very well.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm selling my comic collection -- see http://www.watt-evans.com/comics.html
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight0.html
Robert A. Woodward
<79a018f1-5822-4e8c...@z11g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>
,
Cece <ceceliaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Er, no. _The Golden Wind_ is Hellenistic period trade with India.
As for the Norse and gods, you might be thinking of Poul Anderson's
_The Golden Slave_.
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
Matt Hughes
> I am reading POMPEII by Robert Harris, an engineering-heavy novel about
> the volcanic eruption. It is quite good.
Harris's Lustrum, about the political career of Cicero, was very well
done. I read it on the plane from Belfast to SeaTac, and the time
sped by.
Some of the mentions on this thread are calling up dormant memories.
Someone mentioned Julian, Gore Vidal's novel about the successor of
Constantine who tried to restore paganism to the Roman Empire. It's a
truly fine piece of work. So also is his Creation, where a descendant
of Zoroaster travels east and encounters the Buddha.
In fact, Gore Vidal is a damn fine novelist.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com
Mike Schilling
Burr, 1876, and Lincoln are damned good historical novels too.
Nigel
> On 24 Feb, 19:59, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I am reading POMPEII by Robert Harris, an engineering-heavy novel about
> > the volcanic eruption. It is quite good.
>
> Harris's Lustrum, about the political career of Cicero, was very well
> done. I read it on the plane from Belfast to SeaTac, and the time
> sped by.
>
_Lustrum_ is something of a sequel to _Imperium_ which details
Cicero's rise to power.
Cheers,
Nigel.
Jack Bohn
>In article <uq1ao55ov23kfnnh5...@4ax.com>,
>Jack Bohn <jack...@bright.net> wrote:
>
>>Has anyone read old contemporary fiction and found that
>>it "scratched the itch" for historical fiction?
>
>I don't know if I have an itch for historical fiction. But I
>enjoy reading both fiction and nonfiction (i.e., both the fiction
>and the essays of Jan Struther) written during WWII.
I'm not sure that I do, either. I read Hornblower, and about the
same time discovered A. C. Doyle's tales of Brigadier Gerard, and
have a bit of a yen for the Napoleonic period, but haven't avidly
tracked down any and all such books.
If I had to describe the "itch" for hf, particularly relating it
to the "itch" for sf, my first suggestion would be that the
latter says, "Things are going to be different." and the former
points out, "Things were different."
(In your case, is WWII stuff not for the "Things were different,"
but as a reminder, "This is how things used to be"? :)
--
-Jack
Matt Hughes
> If I had to describe the "itch" for hf, particularly relating it
> to the "itch" for sf, my first suggestion would be that the
> latter says, "Things are going to be different." and the former
> points out, "Things were different."
When it's well done, when the characters are not just people of our
own age dressed up in togas or doublets, hf is a chance to enter an
alien world. As L.P. Hartley said, "The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there." And the people of the past are
different from us. For example, the national sport of England a
couple of hundred years ago was cockfighting. Every town and village
had a cockpit. Unthinkable today.
Or another, in the eighteenth century and earlier, there were two
kinds of children's nurses: those who actually nursed a baby with
their own breast milk; and women to whom unwanted newborns were given
who, for a fee, starved them to death.
Our ancestors were as different from us as our descendants will be.
Reading good hf reminds us that much of what we are is just an
accident of the times and cultures into which we are born.
Matt Hughes
http://ww.archonate.com
erilar
Jack Bohn <jack...@bright.net> wrote:
> If I had to describe the "itch" for hf, particularly relating it
> to the "itch" for sf, my first suggestion would be that the
> latter says, "Things are going to be different." and the former
> points out, "Things were different."
Good point. I read a LOT, but except for mysteries(as in: how it ends
will be a mystery, not an exercise in boredom told from the villain's
viewpoint), which are moderately contemporary, my fiction reading tends
to be science fiction, GOOD fantasy, or GOOD historical fiction(often
also mysteries). The nonfiction reading also tends to be heavily
historical, so I am pretty picky about historical fiction.
>
> (In your case, is WWII stuff not for the "Things were different,"
> but as a reminder, "This is how things used to be"? :)
In my case, certainly. If it happened during my lifetime, I find it
hard to think of it as "historical". WWII happened during my lifetime,
even if when I was fairly young. I remember being enthralled by, for
instance, the Flying Tigers 8-)
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
Chris Thompson
> And then, of course, there are Gene Wolfe's Soldier books, which I
> argued once in a review ought to be considered historical novels
> because their fantastical elements coordinated nicely with the
> worldviews of the people of ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt. Latro saw
> gods, not because he had a head injury, but because gods were part of
> the intellectual furniture of his day.
Well, the other characters don't see them (mostly). I think you might
allow that there could be more than one "cause" here.
--
Chris Thompson
Email: cet1 [at] cam.ac.uk
Dorothy J Heydt
erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>In article <sglco5dbf46mhc98g...@4ax.com>,
> Jack Bohn <jack...@bright.net> wrote:
>
>> If I had to describe the "itch" for hf, particularly relating it
>> to the "itch" for sf, my first suggestion would be that the
>> latter says, "Things are going to be different." and the former
>> points out, "Things were different."
>
>Good point. I read a LOT, but except for mysteries(as in: how it ends
>will be a mystery, not an exercise in boredom told from the villain's
>viewpoint), which are moderately contemporary, my fiction reading tends
>to be science fiction, GOOD fantasy, or GOOD historical fiction(often
>also mysteries).
Have you seen Jill Churchill's Grace and Favor series, set in the
early 30s? I like those; I wish she'd write some more.
(Meanwhile, a lot of the mysteries I read are those *written* in
the 30s.)
The nonfiction reading also tends to be heavily
>historical, so I am pretty picky about historical fiction.
>>
>> (In your case, is WWII stuff not for the "Things were different,"
>> but as a reminder, "This is how things used to be"? :)
>
>In my case, certainly. If it happened during my lifetime, I find it
>hard to think of it as "historical". WWII happened during my lifetime,
>even if when I was fairly young. I remember being enthralled by, for
>instance, the Flying Tigers 8-)
I was born several months after Pearl Harbor. I don't remember
much that happened *during* the war, let alone about it.
Christopher Henrich
<390e8c51-3085-48f6...@x9g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
trag <tr...@io.com> wrote:
> On Feb 22, 2:58 pm, erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <hltj5p$4h...@news.albasani.net>,
> > Ryan McCoskrie <ryan.mccosk...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > Personally, looking at the covers of what sells at Paper Plus the more
> > > mainstream HF novels should all be entitled "100 ways to remove a corset"
> > > but I'm sure there are good examples about as well.
> >
> > That's not historical fiction. That's trash. There is plenty of good
> > historical fiction.
>
> Given that I have enjoyed "I, Claudius", "Claudius the God" (Robert
> Graves) and "The King Must Die" and "The Persian Boy" (Mary Renault)
> would you please recommend some other historical fiction I might enjoy?
All the rest of Mary Renault's Greek novels.
Henry Treece
John Duggan
Lawrence L. Schoonover
Van Wyck Mason
Kenneth Roberts
Samuel Shellabarger
--
Christopher J. Henrich
chen...@monmouth.com
http://www.mathinteract.com
"A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver." -- Boon
erilar
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> Have you seen Jill Churchill's Grace and Favor series, set in the
> early 30s? I like those; I wish she'd write some more.
I'll have to look; I don't recognize those.
>
> (Meanwhile, a lot of the mysteries I read are those *written* in
> the 30s.)
It was a good time for mysteries 8-)
erilar
erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
> In article <KyEq6...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
> > Have you seen Jill Churchill's Grace and Favor series, set in the
> > early 30s? I like those; I wish she'd write some more.
>
> I'll have to look; I don't recognize those.
> >
p.s. I ordered the first one from my library already 8-)
William December Starr
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
> How do you define "period"? The time in which it is set is,
> IIRC, just before World War I, which was at least theoretically
> over by 1935 (though there's a school of thought that claimed
> it'd merely been put on hold till Germany could get its military
> strength back).
The technical term is "halftime."
-- wds
Quadibloc
> In article <hm21b1$5f...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> >No. It's contemporary fiction of the period.
>
> How do you define "period"? The time in which it is set is,
> IIRC, just before World War I, which was at least theoretically
> over by 1935 (though there's a school of thought that claimed
> it'd merely been put on hold till Germany could get its military
> strength back).
It's true that "The African Queen" dealt with events in a past setting
at the time of its writing.
However, an important distinction can be drawn between that work and a
work written today which is set in the year 1400 A.D., for example.
In 1935, despite the carnage of the Great War, many people were alive
who were born prior to 1914; in fact, many people were alive who were
adults in 1914. Generally speaking, portions of the past that are
"within living memory" are not categorized as "historical", since it
is not true that people only know about them by looking up what was
written about them in dusty history books.
John Savard
Joseph Nebus
>Our ancestors were as different from us as our descendants will be.
>Reading good hf reminds us that much of what we are is just an
>accident of the times and cultures into which we are born.
On a not perfectly related note: I'm working on _The Three
Musketeers_ for the first time (as opposed to the enormously many
derivative works and adaptions that mostly remember there's people
with swords running around) and I keep swinging in my reactions between
``this is a pretty cool bit'' and ``what is WRONG with EVERY SINGLE
PERSON IN PRETEND 17TH CENTURY FRANCE?!!''. Still, the involved
political machinations I can get into.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Schilling
> Matt Hughes <arch...@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> Our ancestors were as different from us as our descendants will be.
>> Reading good hf reminds us that much of what we are is just an
>> accident of the times and cultures into which we are born.
>
> On a not perfectly related note: I'm working on _The Three
> Musketeers_ for the first time (as opposed to the enormously many
> derivative works and adaptions that mostly remember there's people
> with swords running around) and I keep swinging in my reactions
> between ``this is a pretty cool bit'' and ``what is WRONG with EVERY
> SINGLE PERSON IN PRETEND 17TH CENTURY FRANCE?!!''. Still, the
> involved political machinations I can get into.
Twenty Years After is must as much fun (though it starts off slowly.) I
enjoyed The Vicomte de Bragellone too, but it's even slower and much, much
longer.
Bill Patterson
You get a much stronger sense of that reading The Autobiography of
Benvenuto Cellini.
Mike Schilling
> On Mar 1, 7:29?am, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
>> Matt Hughes <archon...@googlemail.com> writes:
>>> Our ancestors were as different from us as our descendants will be.
>>> Reading good hf reminds us that much of what we are is just an
>>> accident of the times and cultures into which we are born.
>>
>> Musketeers_ for the first time (as opposed to the enormously many
>> derivative works and adaptions that mostly remember there's people
>> with swords running around) and I keep swinging in my reactions
>> between ``this is a pretty cool bit'' and ``what is WRONG with EVERY
>> SINGLE
>> PERSON IN PRETEND 17TH CENTURY FRANCE?!!''.
> You get a much stronger sense of that reading The Autobiography of
> Benvenuto Cellini.
.Even though he never lived there.
Anyway, the obSF for Cellini is Bujold's _The Spirit Ring_.